Which artists legacies have improved/worsened during the 2010s?

Who was made fun of or forgotten in the previous decade that's more respected now? Who was critically beloved but is now kind of a joke? Why?

For me, I've noticed that the sophistipop re-appraisal has been kind to the legacies of artists like Prefab Sprout and Sade. And also, weirdly, I kinda feel like KoRn/nu-metal in general is in a better place now critically than it was 2009? Dunno if this is Grimes' doing alone, I also think that a lot of late decade rappers being influenced by it has helped too.

Worsened: R. Kelly, Michael Jackson, Morrissey and also by proxy, The Smiths. For obvious reasons.

Who was critically beloved but is now kind of a joke?

Eminem

Nah, Eminem was pretty much a joke in 2009 as well.

This was when he had released Relapse after all.

Yacht rock and other yuppie genres have influenced a ton of indie musicians of the past decade + culminated in popularity in Guardians of the Galaxy and now everybody seems to love Soft Rock/dadrock when it was seen as a joke in previous decades.

I don’t think numetal is being reconsidered yet, and hope it never does.

I think George Michael is a good example of someone who was written off as a complete joke in the 80s but whose reputation has steadily grown to the point where there's hardly any detractors left today.

She was never made fun of the way you describe but Beyoncé has definitely improved.

Worsened: Mark Kozelek

Smash Mouth

...and Toto!

Yacht rock and other yuppie genres have influenced a ton of indie musicians of the past decade + culminated in popularity in Guardians of the Galaxy and now everybody seems to love Soft Rock/dadrock when it was seen as a joke in previous decades.

Also, the Mac DeMarco effect.

Dire Straits' stock has risen.

Fishmans
The entire genre of City Pop.

stock up: '80s rnb, mixtape rap, new age, sophisti-pop
stock down: turn of the decade indie, freak-folk, arcade fire, college rock

Foster and Allen - still going strong and all outstanding debts to revenue.ie have been paid up, venues sold out everywhere from Kerry to Glasgow to Australia! 2020 will be a big year for them.

I think George Michael is a good example of someone who was written off as a complete joke in the 80s but whose reputation has steadily grown to the point where there's hardly any detractors left today.

Good one. I think there's something unique in this decade in regards to artists legacies in relation to their death. In that, due to being in the midst of the streaming/social media, everyone's legacy immediately improves after their death. The public nature of the grieving, the sharing of stories about the artists personal influence on someone, easily shareable articles on their wider importance, and their entire catalogue being able to be streamed at the click of a button. I even feel like this is the case with Bowie, where, y'know, his legacy was probably in a DECENT place in 2009 despite it being a quiet decade for him, but Blackstar and the appraisal of his impact/work that has continued since his death has only strengthened his legacy.

I mean, people even started to really ride for Soundgarden after Chris Cornell passed.

But I think GMs stock was already at an all time high even before his death.

btw electro and italo disco stock definitely down

r.e.m.'s stock has gone down, not really clear why apart from less of a critical focus on college rock etc with the 80s

Consider how beloved and 'important' Animal Collective were in 2009 compared to now.

Huh. I would have thought Italo Disco went up what with stuff like Synthwave becoming a big thing in the decade, and people like Giorgio Moroder, who I releaize is not necessarily Italo Disco, gaining new exposure via that Daft Punk album.

The big italo revival was around 2005, it's been fading ever since.

(and synthwave as the dead cat bounce)

I don’t think numetal is being reconsidered yet, and hope it never does.

i don't know about the genre as a whole, but system of a down and korn have both been elevated above their peers for a while now

no one really seems to care about basement jaxx these days unfortunately, compared to the acclaim they got at their peak

Also the Deftones.

Not so much Limp Bizkit, thankfully.

Xxpost: Mac Demarco is certainly one of the main exponents but I think it can be traced back to Daft Punk’s Discovery reevaluation and popularity. The whole album but particularly singles like “digital love” and “something about us” kind of have soft rock dna in them. Then came Phoenix, Ariel Pink, Toro y Moi further solidifying it as “cool” with the kids. By the time Destroyer’s Kaputt and Cass Mccombs “county line” came out, most critics couldn’t resist it anymore. Bon Iver kind of popularized and made it influential it in a different vein, Anderson Paak, and Thundercat are also influenced by that sound. And of course Mac Demarco in a right place, right time event rose to the top as one of its champions.

Limp Bizkit now firmly established as Classic Rock icons.

Vampire Weekend too with that heavy Paul Simon influence should be mentioned on that initial wave of indie that helped make soft rock cool again.

Air: 10,000 Hz Legend is also ground zero for the soft rock revival I think.

Re: Vampire Weekend, I got the vibe that by 2009 they were already lumped in with all the other bargain bin hype indie that surfaced during the mid-to-late 00s and was quickly forgotten about, but they surprisingly (for me, anyway) turned out to be something special.

Justin Bieber is probably more critically acclaimed now than ten years ago. Not that it takes a lot.

David Boeie? Although his 00s albums were not at all bad, he was still very much considered a has been in 2009. Then he signed off with two magnificient albuns that were almost up there with his 70s masterpieces

I feel like Cardiacs belong here - when I got into them around 2005 they were still virtually unknown, but since then it seems like the internet's vast recommendation algorithms and the explosion of music communities have led them to their audience. maybe I'm wrong here but they seem to be more popular now than they were in their day, even though their last album was 20 years ago

Geir....otm

omg Geir returns!

The best example I can think of is Timbaland, whose legacy/influence seems to have taken a nosedive.

their fans have an annoying habit of going on about them somewhat xps

xp Pharrell as well, to a degree

stock up: '80s rnb, mixtape rap, new age, sophisti-pop
stock down: turn of the decade indie, freak-folk, arcade fire, college rock

― mott the hoopleheads (voodoo chili), Tuesday, July 9, 2019 10:33 AM (fifty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i guess the thread question was more about artists, so i'll explain myself a bit

'80s rnb: sade, whitney houston, anita baker, luther vandross, etc. are definitely held in higher regard by the cool kids today.
mixtape rap: mostly thinking of gucci mane, but as the children of the late '00s come of age, things like kush & oj by wiz khalifa have gotten some late-breaking praise. still waiting on the long-deserved young dro canonization.
new age: can't think of many specific examples, maybe kaitlin aurelia smith--either way, new age isn't just considered a travel shop curiosity anymore
sophisti-pop: tears for fears, steely dan, prefab sprout--"cool" in alternative music is defined less and less by the punk kids, so these smooth-sounding gentlemen earned a bump in reputation

turn-of-the-decade indie: enjoying some retrospectives this year, but nearly every band (except VW and The National) have seen massive decreases in sales and critical attention. we don't live in a gapdy world anymore.
freak-folk: does anybody remember devendra banhart? that dude dated natalie portman
arcade fire: self-explanatory
college rock: idk if its reputation has suffered so much, but other concurrent genres (sophisti-pop, rnb, etc.) have increased in esteem--rem and company aren't put on a pedestal above their contemporaries anymore

I mean, people even started to really ride for Soundgarden after Chris Cornell passed.

― triggercut, Tuesday, July 9, 2019 8:37 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

ah yes, "started"

i'm not sure if the critical view on late-90s/early 00s work of pharrell and timbo have taken a nosedive, just that they've been making music for over a decade that hasn't approached those heights

Yacht Rock/Sophistipop has definitely been rehabilitated

Is nu-metal cool again? I definitely feel like it isnt (and I also hope not).

Has REM's stock fallen? I'm not sure it has

stock down: interesting melodies
stock up: diaphanous floaty moodz

stock way up: things that have both of those

I mean, people even started to really ride for Soundgarden STP after Chris Cornell Scott Weiland passed.

Fixed.

i don't think grimes can singlehandedly rehabilitate nu-metal

related: i put on the slipknot s/t the other day. good record

i think w/any artist who dies cf. Chris Cornell their legacy is almost always positively reassessed though i do think for someone like Bowie leaving on top did in fact make his death more of an event and boosted his legacy a bit more.

w/Cornell for me i guess it made me revisit some of his work and it brought me back to my torn jeans small town era, driving around blasting Temple of the Dog and singing "i'm goin hungray" w/o any irony whatsoever. and i mean I've subsequently heard cuts from the first Audioslave and my appreciation for his skills and that LP grew.

I don't know if nu-metal is cool or critically acceptable, but I've definitely noticed more fond nostalgia for it among younger people who were kids/in middle school when it was around. Same for mallpunk emo (which is basically how you end up with Lil Peep etc).

i am def one of those people but the relentless juvenilia of nu-metal is hard to critically reevaluate. i'd say everyone's been right to focus on deftones and system of a down to the exclusion of everything else. korn is a fascinating band to me in that they have like five "return to our roots" albums at this point, always after they do something nakedly commercial (the record they did with the matrix, the dubstep korn record), none of them good

except for the one coming out maybe. the single is great

Classic or Dud: Korn - Y'All Want a Single

one thing that was conveniently dismissed/forgotten after Bowie died was that he had been a bit shit for almost 2 decades (Blackstar is one of his best, granted)

that's an overstatement but i get it. feel like there's at least one successful bowie project each decade that kept him culturally relevant (the let's dance singles, earthling, heathen)

i'd include outside there but no one understood outside at the time

I wonder what Pomplamoose are doing, right now.

Pomplamoose just did an "Old Town Road"/"Pony" mash-up, so they're probably at an even keel.

hair metal seems to have risen and fallen - revivalist stuff like Steel Panther, Big Cock, Wig Wam and Crashdiet peaked around 2009. Also: stoner rock.

Between Rock of Ages and current Classic Rock playlists, I'd reckon original Hair Metal acts are in a decent place rn.

Prog rock has risen steadily over the last ten years, to the point now where very, very minor bands from the late-seventies to mid-eighties can reform and get a little love on the internet and in PROG magazine.

Yes (and a few others) are definitely cool to like now. Always felt like it was just Floyd and King Crimson that were the only Prog bands it was ok to like before

This probably goes without saying, but groups like the Strokes and Yeah Yeah Yeahs seem almost totally forgotten.

At my last job, I had a framed poster of the Strokes on an NYC rooftop at sunset, signed by all five band members. Everyone who came into my office would glance at it, and then blankly look away. I think one person asked, "Who's that?"

Swans? (No idea on whether or not it's a decline or an improvement)

XXXP - The situation also seems to have inspired lots of guys called Simon, Colin or Clive who made solo portastudio Prog in the eighties to put a band together and try their hand again.

L.A. pop/yacht rock has probably seen the biggest reputation upswing at least according to the increasingly old-man birthday parties I've been attending lately.

xpost I think a lot of the peppy guitar bands these days (Fontaines DC, Rolling Blackouts Coastal Fever) have a little bit of the Strokes to them

the strokes are still headlining festivals

Yeah Yeah Yeahs just sold out an anniversary tour for Fever To Tell.

I think George Michael is a good example of someone who was written off as a complete joke in the 80s

this is not true at all? Especially on black radio and R&B writers.

Basically, I agree with voodoo chili's assessments in full.

I have no idea who these people are who wrote off George Michael's music a complete joke. Maybe in the US?

Tom Waits stock at all time low iirc

LOL Cardiacs.

Nick Cave's stock has risen again

w/Tom Waits i think it's bc he's only released the one LP in the past 15 years (it was very good but i feel like it was a pretty low-key release), but if he drops some kind of ambitious heavily promoted opus it'll put him back up.

xxxp Bands like Shinedown and Godsmack are still headlining festivals, that doesn't mean their cultural stock is high!

Re:Pharrell, I don’t know it seems he’s still making songs for most of the biggest pop stars out there (Beyonce, Ariana Grande...).
Timbo : yeah, totally lost it since 2006 or something (after being inescapable right before that).

shinedown headlines rocklahoma, the strokes headline all points east and governors' ball

No one really gives a shit about U2 these days, right?

I feel like I see more talk about industrial now than a few years ago

rolling stone does!!

xp

The Grateful Dead/jam in general

And re: M. Jackson, I’m not sure his fans/popularity have worsened with the « issue ». Actually I’ve read he’s bigger on Spotify etc than before the documentary and I have friends’ kids who are as obsessed with him as I was as a kid.

Timbaland outpaces Pharrell in twitter gif appearances though

xp

Jean-Michel Jarre seems to be widely accepted as an electronic music pioneer these days, which was uh not exactly his reputation in the 00's

Nice thread idea btw !

strokes' last album sold less than 100k in the U.S. vs their first clearing one million

Black Dice/Wolf Eyes/Lightning Bolt etc seem a lot more off the radar now

strokes' last album sold less than 100k in the U.S. vs their first clearing one million

― omar little, Tuesday, July 9, 2019 12:52 PM (thirty-five seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

stock down: album sales in general

Black Dice/Wolf Eyes/Lightning Bolt etc seem a lot more off the radar now

― Master of Treacle, Tuesday, July 9, 2019 10:53 AM (three minutes ago)

wolf eyes are primarily known for john olson's insta meme account

Similarly to J-MJ, Vangelis is a stone-cold producer's hero these days (although only for Blade Runner). I remember him being considered kinda cheesy/New Age, with Blade Runner as an exception.

The strokes were already nobodys by 2009, weren’t they ?

the strokes stopped being the cool indie band from nyc and evolved into just being a major label rock band that people know.

Who has forgotten the Yeah Yeah Yeahs? xpost Karen O (I know it's not Y3) just had that amazing performance on Colbert recently.
Pomplamoose may have gotten some cred from the dude starting Patreon.

Improvement - Rush (which was maybe bubbling under throughout the 00s but seems to have solidified after the films and their turning 60 etc)

most turgid bk bush era indie - ac, dp, gb, yea fucking sayer deservedly forgotten

But maybe that’s just because they’re at the nadir of the 20 year cycle

thought galcher lustwerk would inaugurate a hip house moment but maybe he’s too sui generis

the time to buy hard techno and gabber stock might be now

i think an overarching theme in all of these stock changes--punk rock and the punk ethos no longer determines coolness or quality in music/indie culture

as far as i can tell, MJ's popularity hasn't been affected at all. once the conversation about that documentary died down, ppl just went on playing his records as if nothing had happened. the 10th anniversary of his death was trending on twitter last month and it was basically all posts celebrating him.

i think MJ's legacy is far worse without a doubt

It seems that more people know that YMO are really neat and not some inscrutable Japanese band, that the band have three distinct personalities with amazing back catalogues of their own (Sakamoto more salient than the others obv) and super deep roots into all kinds of great Japanese music.

Hosono becoming a hip name really surprised me, especially considering it's on the back of two albums he doesn't even remember making (the Muji in-store BGM cassette and Pacific, which he only did 3 tracks for)

but I guess it goes hand in hand with the City Pop revival, if you start poking around you'll see his name on like half of those records

Totally agree with J.D. I don’t think anybody who loved his songs will stop loving them. If anything I think with time, the scandalous aspects will fade and he’ll be even more a mythical figure.

I was going to say that as well: Japanese electronic music (YMO, Hosono et al) seems way more on the rise. I myself might be a proponent, a helpless follower of fashion if you will, in this regard. The sheer amount of stuff getting reissued on quality labels like LITA and others is enormous. Then there's the whole scene of vaporwave spinoffs who are all more or less indebted to Japanese electronica.

xxp

biggest drop? Cee-Lo

Idk, it seemed like there was initial reticence about not playing MJ, but I've noticed a definite downturn in MJ at weddings, and I've been on gigs where we've erred on the side of not playing any.

especially considering it's on the back of two albums he doesn't even remember making

Hosono not remembering what he did might not be the best indicator for, well, anything ;) (bless his soul)

J. Timberlake was still a pop superstar by 2009. Now he’s a joke.

Pomplamoose just did an "Old Town Road"/"Pony" mash-up

My day is ruined.

I think R.E.M.s standing was in decline for most of decade but feel it has picked up with acts like Real Estate and Rolling Blackouts CF owing them a debt stylistically.

Jean Michel Jarre feels like someone who’s name checked as a touchstone in electronic music maybe never going to have the cred of Kraftwerk but he’s not just the guy with the dazzling light show.

those Electronica albums seemed to rehab his image a lot, even though they weren't particularly well-reviewed the fact that the guestlist was a who's-who of electronic music seemed to remind a lot of people how influential he was. also helps that his work over the last 5 years has been pretty strong, especially compared to some of the junk he was doing last decade

As a lover of both electronic music and corny shit, I just spun Oxygene recently and man is that some corny shit.

glad you enjoyed it :)

Then there's the whole scene of vaporwave spinoffs who are all more or less indebted to Japanese electronica.

the first time I heard Ongaku Zukan my thought was "it's like Weather Channel music, but I really like it", which is pretty much vaporwave in a nutshell. I'm surprised that album hasn't retroactively blown up.

I'd also estimate that the growing cult around Alice Coltrane is sending her stock way up, perhaps to unsustainable levels.

Jay-Z's stock appears to have gone down in recent years.

Not his market stock though !#firsthiphopbillionaire

he made shitty albums in the last 10 years and current hip-hop doesn't really sound indebted to him at all

Nick Cave's stock has risen again

Cave's sole major stock dip was Nocturama in 2003 (imo Boatmans/No More are stultifyingly blah but they were rapturously acclaimed at the time), wiped away with two 'blazing return to form' albums - Abattoir Blues and Lyre of Orpheus - the very next year. (Or at least 'one of these is great,' depending on the listener.) From there the '00s just kept critical hits / unusually high-selling soundtracks / oh THIS novel's better than his previous pastiche etc. coming year after year: The Proposition, Grinderman, Dig Lazarus Dig, The Assassination Of Jesse James, Death Of Bunny Munro. Sell-out Bad Seeds tour, sell-out Nick Cave Solo quartet tour, sell-out Grinderman tour, curating All Tomorrows Parties, sell-out Bad Seeds As Rock Hits Band tour driving Mick away, sell-out Grinderman tour again, rinse & repeat. ARIA Hall Of Fame award, Venice screenwriting award, honorary degrees.

If anything the collapse in album sales (especially with the shift to scoring) and splintering of the band dropped him a little in the '10s compared to the 2004-2009 run.

Jay-Z's stock appears to have gone down in recent years.

― pomenitul, Tuesday, July 9, 2019 1:30 PM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

he made shitty albums in the last 10 years and current hip-hop doesn't really sound indebted to him at all

― bookmarkflaglink (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, July 9, 2019 1:31 PM (fifty-one seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

Dark knight feeling, die and be a hero
Or live long enough to see yourself become a villain

Re: Hova he’s basically retired as a rapper, isn’t he ? I’m not sure he cares the slightest about the scene anymore !

wtf he just released an album like two years ago that was pretty universally loved. i think his stock has risen.

his stock has certainly risen since magna carta holy grail, but overall since 2009, idk

J. Timberlake was still a pop superstar by 2009. Now he’s a joke.

― AlXTC from Paris, Tuesday, July 9, 2019 11:15 AM (seventeen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

is he? he still packs arenas (mostly full of late millennial moms)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_of_the_Woods_Tour

i think this thread is more about cultural cache than commercial appeal/success.

Aw really ? Maybe he’s still big in the US, yeah.

wtf he just released an album like two years ago that was pretty universally loved. i think his stock has risen.

and one last year that was universally loved by all 12 ppl with Tidal

(overall I don't think anyone cares about any post-"retirement" albums except Watch The Throne, but rap listeners aren't who's valuing his stock)

ha totally forgot about the album with beyonce... point proven i guess lol

i think this thread is more about cultural cache than commercial appeal/success.

― mott the hoopleheads (voodoo chili), Tuesday, July 9, 2019 11:45 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

oh i was going off the thread title more. i guess man of the woods was lukewarm reviews but the 20/20 releases were pretty favorable iirc. idk i dont think his stock has dropped all that much.

Timberlake's washed up/a has-been, right?

dubstep!

2009 still just about cool
2013 in the heart of the 'brostep' wars
2019 background music on the worst youtube vids

I’m scanning the Pazz and Jop singles winners from 2009. Kanye West, perhaps? Any of the American Idol winners? Lady Gaga? I don’t know, I could see any of those acts having a hit single nowadays.

The problem with this thread is that pop culture moves so much slower than it used to and ten years is just not a very long time music-wise anymore.

Cee-Lo is a good call

The Black Eyed Peas/William

The Flaming Lips

bruce springsteen seemed to have been having a moment about ten years ago. his earnestness and his stripped down stuff like the river or nebraska were a touchstone for a certain strain of indie rock. he's not fallen off hugely from a critical perspective maybe, admittedly. feel like his tunnel of love because the album i would hear songs from more often around, because it's synthy and sexy and 80s and that's more au courant?

there was a lot of brian wilson love in the early and mid 00s. don't feel like i hear too much about him these days (you know, other than that film that came out a couple years ago i guess lol)

Justin Timberlake scored what is probably his biggest hit only three years ago with Can't Stop The Feeling. Clearly his career isn't where it was in 2002 but he's no Robbie Williams or Nelly.

(Nelly or Nelly Furtado)

haven't really heard anyone talk about Aerosmith much lately, despite the bizarre long-winded revival they had

Kanye stock has collapsed but he's still seen as a thing and his new releases will still gather huge attention.

Terius Nash on the other hand has had a really precipitous fall, from can-do-no-wrong in 2008-10 to feeling like a relic of completely different era.

The problem with this thread is that pop culture moves so much slower than it used to and ten years is just not a very long time music-wise anymore.

I feel like Trump and #MeToo represented a watershed in the decade and anyone whose subject matter feels on the wrong side of that divide is kinda stuck there.

the Beach Boys had their moment with that Smile set a few years ago but i think that was kind of a blip, not sure they're really at that level now. Brian Wilson's subsequent work seems to have been mildly received, not critically but culturally.

haven't really heard anyone talk about Aerosmith much lately, despite the bizarre long-winded revival they had

― frogbs, Tuesday, July 9, 2019 12:11 PM (fifty-seven seconds ago) bookmarkflaglink

some bobos can't be unhonked

Kanye stock has collapsed but he's still seen as a thing and his new releases will still gather huge attention.

feel like the NYT writes at least a dozen articles per year on him, still

I thought everybody loved Kids See Ghosts and Pusha-T?

If you think Kanye stock has collapsed you're not exactly following what the kidz are up to

Iggy Azalea however...

some bobos can't be unhonked

I laffed through a mouthful of salad at this!

Up: Bikini Kill, The Prodigy, Tribe Called Quest, Hole, Aphex Twin, early grime, breakbeat, Sade, Joni Mitchell, women who make quiet music in general, Pearl Jam very slightly maybe?

Down: Jack White, Wilco, Sigur Ros, Animal Collective, Kanye, Basement Jaxx, all the obvious abusers

Barely changed at all: Nirvana, Wu-Tang Clan, detroit techno, early Daft Punk

If you think Kanye stock has collapsed you're not exactly following what the kidz are up to

Honestly I think he's been superseded by an entire generation now.

bruce springsteen seemed to have been having a moment about ten years ago. his earnestness and his stripped down stuff like the river or nebraska were a touchstone for a certain strain of indie rock. he's not fallen off hugely from a critical perspective maybe, admittedly. feel like his tunnel of love because the album i would hear songs from more often around, because it's synthy and sexy and 80s and that's more au courant?

there was a lot of brian wilson love in the early and mid 00s. don't feel like i hear too much about him these days (you know, other than that film that came out a couple years ago i guess lol)

― bookmarkflaglink (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, July 9, 2019 7:08 PM (fifteen minutes ago)

Bruce's stock has definitely risen. It felt like you were at height of sleeveless denim jacket naffness to admit you were into Bruce in the 90s and the early 00's

Dont hear the Beach Boys being mentioned these days for the most part.

the Beach Boys had their moment with that Smile set a few years ago but i think that was kind of a blip, not sure they're really at that level now.

the 50th anniversary reunion album & tour with Mike & Bruce +2 joining Brian's band under the Beach Boys name was a bigger moment, but also the perfect capper for the BB culture wars. The legacy is settled, they'll never do anything new again, no need to care or fight. (Also Mike's Beach Boys band is p good and play loads of the arty stuff alongside the hits when they're doing theatres, not state fairs; plus Brian's right-hand-man quit and joined the Beach Boys.)

Seems like more general Alt-Country, or at least Rock-skewing Alt-Country, isn't as big of a deal now. Big Americana artists these days are drawing more from Folk and Soul.

definitely not, but i feel like that decline started with the last decade, not this one.

90s Eurodance? I mean, with the EDM thing going on which is basically Eurodance 2.0

I guess neither is exactly critics darling music though.

https://gawker.com/180780/the-new-spin-dont-you-know-things-can-change-things-can-go-your-way-or-not

Wanted to say EDM as there have been a load of great records, but have seen zero critical appreciation of them, and now the genre is basically done. But guess there may be a revive and some critical appreciation sometime around 2030.

Also up: Fiona Apple (massively), Alanis Morrisette (controversially), KD Lang, Belly, Buffalo Tom, Slowdive

Down: Lil Wayne (from a fairly high base)

Also EDM as in "country/pop singer dropping inspirational lyrics over a huge anthemic build/drop" EDM is very far from fast bouncy 90s Eurodance?

The Pixies will rebound but they've definitely reunioned themselves down a few levels. Ditto Smashing Pumpkins who are a weird one anyway.

EDM producers are probably taken a tiny bit more seriously within dance music than they once were but it's not exactly credible or fashionable come on. D&B is probably on the up again though.

People have been claiming that a drum & bass revival is around the corner for fifteen years now, can't see it happening.

Up: Grime has been on a big upswing after the initial early '00s hype and subsequent decline

Down: The L.A. beat scene got subsumed by Soulection and 'chill beats to study to', Low End Theory ended, the style feels codified and a little quaint, FlyLo lost some mystique (via douchey tweets), etc

Hardstyle

If i was in my 20s and bored I would totally do a tracking index of musicians' cultural/artistic share price.

Upwards: Nardwuar

bring back popex

If i was in my 20s and bored I would totally do a tracking index of musicians' cultural/artistic share price.

Wasn't there something like this on the BBC website circa 2003? I think I remember shorting Fatboy Slim.

Oh, some googling says it was just relaunched

http://landing.celebdaq.co.uk/

I'd nominate Suede as a case of an artist's legacy improving. After the disaster of the New Morning era and the collective shrug that greeted their 2003 Greatest Hits their reputation wasn't exactly great. I saw them at Glastonbury that year and it was actually quite depressing seeing how little everyone cared (the band and the audience). Then throw in Brett's underwhelming solo career towards the end of the 2000s as well.

The turnaround began with the well received reunion shows and has continued with three albums that have sold well and been decent critics successes. They've had to work hard to get their reputation back on track and surprisingly seemed to have kept the momentum going. Where they are now is so much better than 10 years ago.

Suede definitely up, Manic Street Preachers unbelievably somehow down on even 10 years ago.

Gaz Coombes, up obviously.

Hitler, up obviously.

I would now say I much prefer Suede to Blur, which would have been completely unthinkable ten years ago

Also surprisingly up, Craig David (not to mention UK garage in general).

some bobos can't be unhonked

― american bradass (BradNelson), Tuesday, July 9, 2019 2:12 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

lmao

oh I guess Green Day's rep has taken a bit of a tumble, I remember the mid-00's where they were spoken of like they were the next Kinks, or the one California punk band that actually ascended into something else and potentially saved rock n' roll, blah blah blah.

Cool thread.

Up: Queen (biggest rise,classic rock edition) Electric Light Orchestra, J Giles Band

Down: U2, Parliament-Funkadelic (inexplicable yet true) Eric Clapton

Biggest down: electric guitar

down: the blues, though i guess that's been happening for a while

Uh, J. Geils Band?

Unless Johnny Giles has been moonlighting as a blues singer.

ELO is a good one. They're averaging about 10 million Spotify listeners a month, way more than a lot of their contemporaries.

Kanye West and Radiohead stock is a bit like investing on Apple. No matter what controversies or new trends happen, they haven’t lost value in public perception as “groundbreaking” and/or “cool”.

Down: Crescendo Based Post-Rock

Up: Nile Rodgers

Queen, definitely. You can't underestimate the popularity of that movie (which I still haven't watched). My 11 year old niece told me that she's learning to play Queen songs on the piano a few days ago.

Queen are like some weird keystone in British culture now, but they (and their manager) have pursued that line pretty much since not long after Freddie died.

In terms of keeping the band's name alive in every media that was viable, they've managed to basically shill for themselves in every potential direction and, very astutely, at the generations following the people that were into Queen the first time around.

I did go and see them once with Paul Rodgers singing (it was a freebie) and I blubbed like a big fucking girl when Brian May came out and sung Love Of My Life on an acoustic guitar.

Grammy award winning artist, shirtless wonder Matt Pike of High on Fire and Sleep.

Yeah it happened...Pike's kinda picked up the torch now from Lemmy in a stylistic way.

somebody said it up thread but I feel like Tom Waits I see people busting on a lot now and he was such a darling for decades

i blame tom scharpling for that tbh

stock down: turn of the decade indie, freak-folk, arcade fire, college rock

― mott the hoopleheads (voodoo chili)

big blood will always have a special place in my heart

up: tori amos, but not as much as she deserves

↓ canadian indie rockers
↑ canadian pop stars

i blame tom scharpling for that tbh

Ha! He is very vivid in his hatred.

Regarding the electric guitar, I guess the stock of the overdrive guitar has fallen (even though the likes of Ghost and Avenged Sevenfold have managed to revive the hair metal genre somewhat). However, the chorus guitar is at its coolest since the 80s. (Agsin: Mac DeMarco)

down: songs about molly
up: songs about xannies

yeah Queen, which I have never liked at all, seems so big now.
Also Elton John : a friend told me he's his 7yo kid's favourite singer(and I suppose at this age, they are influenced by other kids at school etc).
Not surprisingly, his kid also likes Queen...
I blame THESE movies !

That said I guess E. John wasn't particularly down in the 00s.

Billy Ray Cyrus?

The problem with this thread is that pop culture moves so much slower than it used to and ten years is just not a very long time music-wise anymore.

yeah, I've often thought about that and I suppose it's been discussed at length somewhere on ILX but it's one thing I can't really explain.
Like I remember when Suede's first album reached its 20y anniversary release and thinking it had been as long as say when Sgt Pepper got its CD 20y anniversary in the 80s.
Yet it didn't feel that long ago to me regarding Suede whereas between 67 and 87 it seemed like totally different eras.
It might be totally subjective, though and the musical landscape IS totally different now so I don't know...

Also pop/rnb hits now don't seem vastly different from 10 or even 20y ago whereas pop hits in like the 90s had nothing to do with those in the 70s, for instance.

While it would seem more likely that pop culture now would move FASTER than previously with all the media, IT, trends, etc.

00s music is in the uncanny valley of pre-revival but no longer current so will fall by default

there is something heartening about the enduring rep of the wu tang clan

there is something heartening about the enduring rep of the wu tang clan

Indeed!

Then there's the whole scene of vaporwave spinoffs who are all more or less indebted to Japanese electronica.

the first time I heard Ongaku Zukan my thought was "it's like Weather Channel music, but I really like it", which is pretty much vaporwave in a nutshell. I'm surprised that album hasn't retroactively blown up.

― frogbs, Tuesday, July 9, 2019 8:27 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Yes! Same with Casiopea's 'Mint Jams', which sounds like it was recorded tomorrow (but in fact is from '82 o_O). You could fool anyone passing it off as a smooth jazz/vaporwave milestone.

Elton John is a good one, there was a Twitter post not long after 'Rocketman' came out saying, can you imagine back in the 80s hating Morrissey for being a bigot and Elton John being the cool one.

I get the feeling Billy Joel is more respected now than he was back in the 90s/00s. Conversely despite going down the Rick Rubin stripped back route, Neil Diamond seems more of a footnote as a performer, with only his 60s singles being remembered.

turns out wu tang really was for the children.

Down: Most 60s music - the Beatles, even the Beach Boys.. No one talks about them any more.

It's been ages since I heard anyone talk about Troutmaskreplica in any significant way

Does anyone still talk about Love?

as long as the Zombies and Byrds end up atop the pile I'm cool

Up - Trance music

Does anyone still talk about Love?

― pomenitul, Wednesday, July 10, 2019 12:32 PM (three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Don't know if anyone *talks* about them, but Alone Again Or was used in Netflix's Russian Doll series.

I think it's 'cooler' to mention Love these days than any of those other bands. I guess people burn out on hype for certain acts and peak Beach Boys worship seemed to come during that Animal Collective / Magic Numbers era of the mid-2000s.

wish people would talk more about the Beatles

That said, there's still probably lots of love for the more experimental psychedelic acts like Silver Apples or White Noise

I think there were lots of talks about the Beatles with the releases of the remixed Pepper and White albums, weren't there ?

Sebastien Tellier was quite big (relatively speaking) by the end of the 00s.
He's mostly disappeared now (even in France).

True. Meanwhile, Noir Désir’s stock has plummeted even further (I wonder why?).

Autechre and IDM type music in general stock has shot up in recent years after nosediving some time c2004

I think there were lots of talks about the Beatles with the releases of the remixed Pepper and White albums, weren't there ?

― AlXTC from Paris, Wednesday, July 10, 2019 1:53 PM (eleven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

on certain ILM threads maybe but honestly, who's excited and passionate about the Beatles in the same way as, say, during the 90s? Nowhere close. The sixties isn't even a mum and dad era any more. It's the distant past and it's been mined so many times over there's nothing new to really say about them, for now perhaps

Yeah, I agree

(oups too fast)
I agree and considering the musical landscape (even in the UK), I don't really see them coming back as a major inspiration for new artists in the near future...

Sucks that psych pop is less cherished these days but on the plus side prog is nowhere near the plague carrier it used to be and that's a definite step up.

That said, who would have put money on Queen in 2019 !

As someone who runs a new wave / post-punk / old school electro type night, it feels like even that era has lost a fair bit of cachet in recent years. 80s nostalgia is for Gen Xers and millennials, and trying to romanticise the B52s, Talking Heads and Gang Of Four is pretty ageing. That said, early house and techno is considered really cool and I'm surprised how many students will turn up to those kinds of nights round here.

There is a major fucking motion picture about the fucking Beatles in 2000 and fucking 19 and there are still endless fucking people fucking going on and fucking on about them

tbf

Yeahn 80s nostalgia seems to have passed too.
Is there a 90s nostalgia going on ?
I don't really hear/see things inspired by grunge, new jack swing, britpop, triphop... but I'm not at all in touch with the current trends !

ahah yeah I thought about that movie but somehow I doubt it will have the effect the Queen and Elton John movie had.

Well a sizeable chunk of the public seems to have finally realized that Richard Curtis and Danny Boyle are for shit so fingers crossed.

There is a major fucking motion picture about the fucking Beatles in 2000 and fucking 19 and there are still endless fucking people fucking going on and fucking on about them

― jou're much too jung, girl (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, July 10, 2019 2:29 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Maybe if you stopped talking about them there'd be less?
I'm only speaking from my own POV of course..

Hey I haven't had a "fuck the Beatles" tear in ages, needed to get it off my lungs

Is this even about the quality of these Queen/Elton movies (which I haven't seen) ?
From what I understand, they're pretty bad, aren't they ?
Maybe the main issue with the Beatles movie is that it actually not a Beatles movie : it doesn't portray them at all (and you don't even hear their songs, just covers) so it might be difficult to build excitement about them...
That reminds me of my teenage years, when Olivier Stone single-handedly revived the Doors !

(speaking of Beatles movie : there was also a Ron Howard documentary released a couple years ago iirc)

As someone who runs a new wave / post-punk / old school electro type night, it feels like even that era has lost a fair bit of cachet in recent years. 80s nostalgia is for Gen Xers and millennials, and trying to romanticise the B52s, Talking Heads and Gang Of Four is pretty ageing. That said, early house and techno is considered really cool and I'm surprised how many students will turn up to those kinds of nights round here.

this stuff all had its moment a decade ago with LCD Soundsystem and the rest of the DFA bands so it kinda makes sense that everyone's sick of it now

as long as the Zombies and Byrds end up atop the pile I'm cool

― imago

Zombies revisionism/worship is possibly one of the most annoying things abt this current decade, such an overrated band

"stuff from 30 years ago you can ironically like" will always be cool.

wait what xp

That reminds me of my teenage years, when Olivier Stone single-handedly revived the Doors !

I get the sense that the Doors never underwent a reputation slump in France, partly on account of the language barrier.

Also the Zombies are good and that is a fact.

how can you hate on the zombies, they're so full of music and joy and friendliness

Is there a 90s nostalgia going on ?
I don't really hear/see things inspired by grunge, new jack swing, britpop, triphop... but I'm not at all in touch with the current trends !

There’s a huge ‘90s influence in indie rock / indie pop these days, and also R&B to a somewhat lesser extent

regarding that beatles movie, it's been in the box office top 5 for the past three weeks.

Nirvana seems bigger now than they were in the noughties so I'd chalk that up to the (subtle) 90s revival that is currently unfolding.

A specific ‘90s style that seems really big at the moment is female-fronted “cuddlecore” / Daria soundtrack–type rock.

(which I guess is fitting as Daria itself is coming back)

hum, found this interesting part of a RS article about the the Beatles movie (I don't know the Florida teen mentioned though) :

"For a prototypical Beatle fan in 2019, just look to Emma Gonzalez, the Florida teen who became a gun-control (and LGBTQ) activist last year. She’s a Ringo stan who loves to wear her Fabs shirt in TV interviews and wrote on Twitter, “I feel like Beatles songs were made to be sung by powerful women.”"

For today's kids, The Beatles are about as long ago as Al Jolson was for me as a kid. If new music is in the style of The Beatles it would be more likely to be influenced more by the likes of Oasis and Blur or even Kaiser Chiefs.

we've established that critical cache/coolness and commercial appeal are different things, but for fun here's some legacy acts and their monthly spotify listeners

Michael Jackson: 22.2mil
The Beatles: 20.2mil
Elton John: 20.1mil
Whitney Houston: 19.9mil
The Rolling Stones: 15.4mil
Fleetwood Mac: 14.9mil
Nirvana: 13.4mil
Stevie Wonder: 13.1mil
Led Zeppelin: 12.9mil
Eagles: 12.4mil
U2: 12.4mil
The Police: 12.4mil
Billy Joel: 12mil
Marvin Gaye: 12mil
Tom Petty (combined with Heartbreakers): 12mil
Pink Floyd: 11.2mil
REM: 8.5mil
Van Morrison: 8.4mil
ELO: 8mil
Bob Dylan: 7.9mil
Prince: 7.8mil (prob deflated by his stuff hitting tidal first)

oh and Queen: 32.9mil

meant to include Bowie too: 12.4mil

Queen: 900mil

oops, Queen were there

Police above Petty and Floyd is a big surprise, as I see t-shirts all the time for those two, and Police feel like they're in the same dwindling regard as REM.

Looking at that list, The Who clearly have clearly gone down. In the 80s they were a firm #3 or #4 in the classic rock canon, behind only the Beatles and Stones and possibly Led Zeppelin.

The Police are a weird one, I never hear anyone really talk about them and you don't hear any of their songs in revival stuff like Stranger Things. and yet that 2007 reunion was wildly successful, I went to one of those shows and was kinda floored at how many young people were there

on a similar note, Phil Collins? was a punching bag throughout my entire childhood but it seems it's okay to like him now

Has Kate Bush's status gone up in the past ten years, or is it around the same as it was circa 2009?

Seems like Neil has maintained steady levels of reverence - reliably dependable stock

Whitney Houston is definitely having a moment.

The Police are a weird one, I never hear anyone really talk about them and you don't hear any of their songs in revival stuff like Stranger Things.

Here’s an interesting recent citation:

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-features/ariana-grande-thank-u-next-savan-kotecha-interview-791280/

That one came from: What would happen if Ari did a Police kind of melody? When I was coming up with the melody it was more that kind of thing, and a Police kind of guitar with a trap beat. What would that feel like?

Which Neil? Young?

Phil Collins: 11.6mil
The Who: 7.4mil
Neil Young: 5.2mil
Kate Bush: 1.6mil

those are very interesting Spotify counts, thanks

Has Kate Bush's status gone up in the past ten years, or is it around the same as it was circa 2009?

https://variety.com/2019/music/news/billie-eilish-kate-bush-1203260731/

Yeah sorry Neil Young- despite or because of wildly inconsistent (but frequent) output, he seems to be just as beloved as he ever has been

We need a token 17 year old for interrogative purposes.

And a token 27 year old with a really good memory?

My 14 year old niece loves Queen, Prince & Bowie but I suspect that her mother’s tastes may have played a role

Or even a token 25-year-old.

(sorry, xposts – the app screwed up my zinger)

Regarding The Police, Magic!, who had a transatlantic #1 in 2014 with "Rude", cited them as a huge influence.

2014 is some time ago though, and Magic! were a one hit wonder.

I feel like Prince's death def increased his cultural cache

nu metal has def been reassessed, in its cheesiest/commercial forms too not just "respectable" stuff like SOAD/Deftones ... gentrifier cafe was playing Limp Bizkit the other day ... "Butterfly" is a certain classic (maybe not metal-qualifying but visually). but the whole of commercial rock from the early 00s sounds better now than it did initially IMO, heard puddle of mudd in the gym & it jams, Korn are obv good etc

I think Sublime's critical profile has certainly risen to the extent that turgid crit lodestars like lana del rey are covering them

Prince's death also made his music more readily available.

I would say Nirvana's standing has gone up now that we're further from neo grunge movement

thanks, Lil Nas!

Speaking of Rocketman and Bohemian Rhapsody, and on a slightly different tangent, it seems like stocks in music biopics and films with pop-music-centred narratives have skyrocketed (A Star is Born, Yesterday). I thought that by the end of the last decade, Dewey Cox had had the final say in highlighting the stupidity of many music films and was a pretty perfect spoof.

But now it seems like music/film nerds and critics are actually taking these films seriously again. I haven't seen any of the recent ones so I can't comment on their quality or whether the tired tropes usually contained within them remain the same, but the trailers seem just as woeful as anything released in earlier years. What's behind them gaining more respectability? Are these movies actually good? Are they adding something of value and truth to the story of these artists' careers? Or are people desperate for comfort food in an otherwise remarkably depressing era?

Like, if that Runaways biopic with Kirsten Stewart and Dakota Fanning was announced in 2019, the internet would melt down. No one gave a shit in 2010.

Yeah Nirvana have gone up for sure. At least, some of my high school students are very into them. Feel they are like Stones level at this point

NIN/Reznor has to have gone up a bit given his soundtrack work combined with the very recent Black Mirror and Lil Nas X

But now it seems like music/film nerds and critics are actually taking these films seriously again

no.

the general public is flocking to them, but most critics/music nerds/film nerds aren't embracing them. (academy awards excepted, but then again they don't fit in with either of those three categories)

now it seems like music/film nerds and critics are actually taking these films seriously again.

no

Haha fair enough.

Looking at that list, The Who clearly have clearly gone down. In the 80s they were a firm #3 or #4 in the classic rock canon, behind only the Beatles and Stones and possibly Led Zeppelin.

― kornrulez6969, Wednesday, July 10, 2019 10:43 AM (forty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

The awful 1989 Who tour dealt a huge blow to their legacy, from which they've arguably never recovered. Every tour after that was, "how many 'reunion tours' are those guys gonna do?" Their late-'90s tours played to more than a few half-empty arenas in the US.

And then their songs were on every CSI show all the time, so people got sick of "that YYYYYEEAAAAAHH! song" pretty quickly.

re: mixtape rap mentioned upthread, I don't think it's just the rise in profile of Gucci but also a series of rappers from that era (Max B, Boosie, etc.) & also the way the streaming industry legitimized the popularity of that stuff by forcing Billboard to acknowledge what had been off the book streams on LiveMixtapes, DatPiff, etc

The Police are a weird one, I never hear anyone really talk about them and you don't hear any of their songs in revival stuff like Stranger Things.

I just watched season 2 Stranger Things finale and "Every Breath You Take" is the last song played

nu metal has def been reassessed, in its cheesiest/commercial forms too not just "respectable" stuff like SOAD/Deftones ... gentrifier cafe was playing Limp Bizkit the other day ... "Butterfly" is a certain classic (maybe not metal-qualifying but visually). but the whole of commercial rock from the early 00s sounds better now than it did initially IMO, heard puddle of mudd in the gym & it jams, Korn are obv good etc

idk man. "butterfly" def qualifies, i'll concede that (even though it approaches rap metal through an rhcp sample... for a song i hate with all of my heart it's v smart)

imo the peak cultural cachet for "butterfly" was its recurring appearance in the movie orange county

Feel like Fleetwood Mac's sacking of Buckingham is already causing a substantial tumble in their standing.

I never see people my age (41) wearing Nirvana shirts, but do see quite a few youngins wearing them.
But after asking a 22 yr old "Oh cool there's still Thrasher magazine and young people read it??" and getting a "huh? oh I just like the design of the shirt" response, I'm not sure if they even listen to Nirvana!

dunno if that's true but it took more than twenty years for people to stop their sexist yapping about Buckingham at the expense of Nicks + McVie.

re: nu-metal, again i guess it depends on whether you think this thread is assessing its critical or popular reputation. chocolate starfish is i assume still p radioactive for most critics (i'd love to write a retrospective piece about it lol) whereas people who grew up with it are... making music now, or at least own gentrifier cafes

The Who are one of those bands where their legacy didn't carry over to the next generation of listeners. Led Zeppelin, the Doors, the Beatles, the Stones, Pink Floyd...they've all picked up new listeners along the way to varying degrees. Not sure why that is but as someone who really grew up listening to classic rock The Who were the one huge band that i distinctly remember not appealing to me and i knew zero kids growing up who listened to them.

The Breeders' rep has improved to the point that i think a lot of ppl consider them superior to the Pixies

So-called 'extreme' metal is seemingly less prized now than it was in the mid to late 00s.

xp I certainly do (and did)

Not sure why that is but as someone who really grew up listening to classic rock The Who were the one huge band that i distinctly remember not appealing to me and i knew zero kids growing up who listened to them.

cosign

i think they're like a crusty uncle band and they're a bit too corny

The Breeders are better than the Pixies btw

I always thought so!

Fleetwood Mac probably only lost some critical standing...I've seen a number of pans or at least mixed reviews of the current tour. But those shows are still selling.

Not sure why that is but as someone who really grew up listening to classic rock The Who were the one huge band that i distinctly remember not appealing to me and i knew zero kids growing up who listened to them.
cosign

same here. I thought of them as that cheesy band that did that dumb song & film about blind pinball kid and whose singer just swirled the mic around by the cord while the obnoxious guitarist jumped around the stage.

im 28 and i was one of two who fans in my high school

between the Breeders and the Pixies it's not a contest for me at this point and throwing in the Amps album seems almost unfair.

not a lot of fans of wes anderson's rushmore itt, i guess

Funny, judging from my friends who teach college students, I've gotten the impression that they don't really know Nirvana, but if you play Teen Spirit they say 'oh yeah, I've heard that song'.

Up: astrology references

The first few times I tried listening to Who's Next, all I could to think to myself was 'they don't deserve this drummer'.

the key to listening to who's next is listening for the first time when you're 12 years old.

I just watched season 2 Stranger Things finale and "Every Breath You Take" is the last song played

ok admittedly I should've watched the last couple episodes before posting that

This song was Number One for six weeks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-fA-gBCkj0

That song sucks, but Uptown Funk will be playing at weddings and other parties for years to come.

jfc

https://www.discogs.com/Mark-Ronson-Feat-Bruno-Mars-Uptown-Funk/release/6624863

(the only official vinyl release)

It was in reference to the Police discussion

Bruno still rocks

The comparisons for Queen's biopic success and current playcount might more like: Hamilton OCR, Greatest Showman OST, Glee, Frozen OST. Musical theater has been a rising thing this decade, and it seems more like musical nerds discovering them rather than kids who pick up Pink Floyd, Nirvana and Joy Division tshirts at the mall.

Also, it seems like Bohemian Rhapsody, the song, was already a self-sustaining meme like Don't Stop Believin' or Africa, but those bands don't have a compelling story line behind them. Now I wanna brainstorm angles for making a Toto meme-sploitation screenplay!

I'm calling Homeland Security.

<i>Now I wanna brainstorm angles for making a Toto meme-sploitation screenplay!</i>

Well there is the episode of Yacht Rock about the making of Rosanna.

Serious musical theatre heads know that "Greatest Showman" is bullshit

also anyone who has endured the movie for a any length of time

Now I wanna brainstorm angles for making a Toto meme-sploitation screenplay!

It's all there! "Thriller," drummer who dies in a bizarre gardening accident, that story in the doc about Steve Lukather writing that song for George Benson because the bassist was in the bathroom. The movie writes itself. They could call it "En Toto."

Actually, they would just call it "Hold the Line" or something. And it would be bookended by a performance at the state fair. Any state fair.

Toto Recall

I feel that The Who have always been neglected since the 90s

I thought “turn your love around” was written while ON the crapper

The Who are one of those bands where their legacy didn't carry over to the next generation of listeners. Led Zeppelin, the Doors, the Beatles, the Stones, Pink Floyd...they've all picked up new listeners along the way to varying degrees.

They're a weird band with an inconsistent and somehow sparse back catalogue and were collectively pretty unloveable. Also musically a difficult band to emulate - not technically difficult, but if you tried you'd just sound like, er, The Who.

Like I remember when Suede's first album reached its 20y anniversary release and thinking it had been as long as say when Sgt Pepper got its CD 20y anniversary in the 80s.
Yet it didn't feel that long ago to me regarding Suede whereas between 67 and 87 it seemed like totally different eras.
It might be totally subjective, though and the musical landscape IS totally different now so I don't know...

Hm, I'm interested in this idea, which I hear a lot. Around what year/s do you feel like things started to slow down? What are the qualities that, say, make the #1s from 1987 closer to those from 2007 than those from 1967?

re: nu-metal, again i guess it depends on whether you think this thread is assessing its critical or popular reputation. chocolate starfish is i assume still p radioactive for most critics (i'd love to write a retrospective piece about it lol) whereas people who grew up with it are... making music now, or at least own gentrifier cafes

― american bradass (BradNelson), Wednesday, July 10, 2019 11:09 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

i feel like the gentrifier cafes are critics tho its just that were old ... i mean this stuff isn't just nostalgia-popular its actively Cool for zoomers & young millennials

this song off chocolate starfish is so good lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dn8vzTsnPps

a funny thing looking at the DJ I'm reminded of is that nu metal dudes' interactions w/ hip hop were very Run DMC influenced, I've said this elsewhere before but like the only ppl wearing shell toe adidas in the late 90s / early 00s were nu metal fans/artists .. it explains the dated sounding raps from this era

Funny, judging from my friends who teach college students, I've gotten the impression that they don't really know Nirvana, but if you play Teen Spirit they say 'oh yeah, I've heard that song'.

Interesting. I had two different 13yo students in the past year who badly wanted to learn that song as one of their major goals.

i mean they're scratching Rakim saying "check out my melody" lol badass xp

Commercially, Jennifer Lopez, Britney Spears and Christina Aguilera have all lost it thoughout the 10s. A bit uncertain how critically acclaimed they ever were though.

i think out of the three only Britney has had considerable staying power and she'll probably get a major and favorable reassessment at some point (though she's viewed pretty favorably already). J-Lo and C-Ag are just famous ppl at this point.

a funny thing looking at the DJ I'm reminded of is that nu metal dudes' interactions w/ hip hop were very Run DMC influenced, I've said this elsewhere before but like the only ppl wearing shell toe adidas in the late 90s / early 00s were nu metal fans/artists .. it explains the dated sounding raps from this era

― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Wednesday, July 10, 2019 10:28 AM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

i've never considered this before but it's... v otm

which, the era coincided with this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Royal_(album)

britney's rap is very solid, aguilera is kind of a blind spot for me as far as how ppl consider her although I do see ppl give "genie in a bottle" the props it deserves, JLo's stock has fallen bc of the stories about how execs would take songs from like Brandy & gift them to JLo or w/e

britney's rap is very solid

She's more versatile than I thought.

probably because Bring The Noise + Walk This Way were the two big crossovers to a rock audience?

I'm sure it'll never be the critical/retroactive consensus but I still maintain the best thing by far about nu-metal were the Limp Bizkit hits, not SOAD and Deftones. If you're going to be whiny, self-obsessed and juvenile, at least have the decency to keep it simple and bring the hooks.

They're a weird band with an inconsistent and somehow sparse back catalogue and were collectively pretty unloveable. Also musically a difficult band to emulate - not technically difficult, but if you tried you'd just sound like, er, The Who.

― Orpheus Knutt (Tom D.), Wednesday, July 10, 2019 1:20 PM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

That's just it: as hugely influential as they are, nobody resembles them. Zeppelin has Kingdom Come and Greta Van Fleet and a bunch of others, but there aren't any (obvious, at least) Who ripoff bands.

The best thing Who related to come out recently is the episode "Joe Pera Reads You the Church Announcements" of "Joe Pera Talks with You", which not enough people watched.

And the Who's back catalogue isn't sparse so much as it's a mess: there's nearly as much studio material as, say, the Stones put out from the '60s through the '70s, but chunks of it are on singles or outtakes collections (and some is still unreleased).

xxp

love this thread. I'll add a category to the stock up/stock down framework.
It's complicated: current mainstream country.

it explains the dated sounding raps from this era

there was a "take it back to the old school" lil trend around when numetal was happening too no? I'm thinking of acts like Jurassic 5 but I know there were others.

I'm sure it'll never be the critical/retroactive consensus but I still maintain the best thing by far about nu-metal were the Limp Bizkit hits, not SOAD and Deftones. If you're going to be whiny, self-obsessed and juvenile, at least have the decency to keep it simple and bring the hooks.

― Siegbran, Wednesday, July 10, 2019 10:38 AM (six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

fair description of why the limp bizkit singles are good but soad and deftones aren't remotely whiny, self-obsessed, or juvenile. which is i guess why they've never felt exactly like they belonged to the genre!

slipknot's "wait and bleed" another peak of whiny self-obsessed juvenile nu-metal with hooks, just to harder ends (which is why they've always had cred to some degree)

Black Eyed Peas were part of that, "Old School" movement, before they really blew up.

good call. Guess it was an LA thing mainly? People Under the Stairs too. Ugly Duckling.

I think of Korn as being the archetypal nu metal band and their songs are A+ ... freak on a leash is incredible

Deftones are super whiny and self-obsessed, they're just whiny and self-obsessed in a "dude in the back row of homeroom moping in a different Cure shirt every day" kind of way.

SOAD had a proggy respectability & deftones I never listened to that much but I remember ppl taking them seriously ... but only liking respected nu metal feels like missing the point of nu metal imho

i completely agree with that

though i think you'd really love a lot of deftones stuff deej (i'm basing this entirely on abe cunningham's drumming)

only liking respected nu metal feels like missing the point of nu metal imho

Agree, which is why I still listen to Static-X regularly. (Plus, Static-X were more of a Ministry ripoff than a nu-metal band, except for their third album, when the label tried really hard to shove them into a Korn-shaped box. It sucked.)

good call. Guess it was an LA thing mainly? People Under the Stairs too. Ugly Duckling.

There's a lot of Canadian stuff from around then that I might put in that category. Like, I used to think the Black Eyed Peas were a Canadian group when they first started.

The best thing Who related to come out recently is the episode "Joe Pera Reads You the Church Announcements" of "Joe Pera Talks with You"

oh my god

tears of joy

only liking respected nu metal feels like missing the point of nu metal imho

What was the point of nu-metal? SoaD sounded good to me; most nu-metal didn't, particularly.

Edan did some fun retro shit before he did his record collector psych rock album that got tons of great reviews

I mean, there were some singles by e.g. Linkin Park that were fun at the time but that didn't have much shelf life for me.

early korn is cathartic in a psychologically direct way that most music i've encountered isn't. also it's funky as hell, which allowed for them to go full disco stomp on "got the life." other nu-metal bands approach the same idea from different angles

Linkin Park has some amazing music. I think that stuff has aged pretty well, even the stuff that struck me as stilted at the time like "In the End" at least has a poptimist appeal or whatever. But some of the songs are just badass, like "Faint" and "Numb"

almost all the nu metal bands were at least good for a single..."Bawitdaba" is a great karaoke record

in retrospect Kid Rock's schtick was a little limited but he has a few moments ... I feel like he should have had more great songs before he turned country than he actually did

i love a long nu-metal digression on ilm thanks everyone

early korn still slaps

Edan did some fun retro shit before he did his record collector psych rock album that got tons of great reviews

Just listened to this for 1st time in looong time. It's fun.

Unquestionably, yeah.

I never see Sevendust mentioned anywhere these days but they're still pumping out albums.

xp

in retrospect Kid Rock's schtick was a little limited but he has a few moments ... I feel like he should have had more great songs before he turned country than he actually did

― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Wednesday, July 10, 2019 11:08 AM (two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

yeah! this is funny to me bc the country turn kinda happens within his first run of major label singles with "only god knows why." i sure loved the hell out of "cowboy" when i was a kid though

sevendust's "black" is one of my absolute favorite nu-metal songs

the drummer who left the band and had a failed surf'n'turf franchise and then sued the band to be let back in but wasn't and fieldy the five-string slap-bassist who did an awful and depressing (in terms of lyrical content, also just sonically) rap record are great rhythm section

I'm still waiting for so-called post-grunge to make a come back.

And is it just me or has Tool's rep dwindled over time?

i mean this stuff isn't just nostalgia-popular its actively Cool for zoomers & young millennials

― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Wednesday, July 10, 2019 12:26 PM (fifty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I’m on the old/young millennial cusp, but I haven’t seen much earnest nostalgia about limp bizkit and korn (SOAD, yes). The real sneered-upon genre getting a mainstream rehab is mallpunk/emo/warped tour stuff, but I guess that’s been happening for a while

XP Post grunge as in DMB, Live, Hootie & the Blowfish, Creed, Nickleback and The Calling?

“Got the life” owns

Sort of, Geir. Was also thinking of Days of the New, Foo Fighters, Local H and Bush. Wouldn't include DMB and Hootie & the Blowfish (and I'm not familiar with The Calling).

'Touch, Peel and Stand' was my jam when I was 12.

the drummer who left the band and had a failed surf'n'turf franchise and then sued the band to be let back in but wasn't and fieldy the five-string slap-bassist who did an awful and depressing (in terms of lyrical content, also just sonically) rap record are great rhythm section

― bookmarkflaglink (jim in vancouver), Wednesday, July 10, 2019 11:16 AM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

otm, although silveria's drumming gets more indifferent as the korn records drag on. his replacement is v v good though

I’m on the old/young millennial cusp, but I haven’t seen much earnest nostalgia about limp bizkit and korn (SOAD, yes). The real sneered-upon genre getting a mainstream rehab is mallpunk/emo/warped tour stuff, but I guess that’s been happening for a while

― mott the hoopleheads (voodoo chili), Wednesday, July 10, 2019 1:21 PM (seven minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

i agree mallpunk/emo/warped tour stuff has its mainstream rehab too but IDK im listening to a bunch of nu metal lately and a lot of it is just ... good. So I guess if you want to accuse me of trend advocacy instead of trendspotting ill accept that, but I dont think ppl are playing songs they hate out of non-earnest nostalgia

the pop punk rehab (rather than the emo one) to me feels a bit corny/underthought, like blink 182 is a boring touchpoint at this pt

Daltrey stanning for hard-Brexit has likely put off a lot of younger potential fans from investigating The Who. Soured a few older fans too no doubt.

There’s probably a whole thread to be filled with these sad cases where some dude in a band has problems and leaves, and years later the rest refuses to let him back in, so he ends up doing the big reunion tour and comeback album on a skimpy session contract.

Does mayor pete repping for everlast count as rehab for post-grunge?

Nah, just a sign that hick hop is cool-ish.

gonna listen to korn all day thanks everyone

fwiw i always conflated nu metal and post grunge at the time & in retrospect I guess I just meant "modern rock" bc hippie grunge like Incubus qualified as "nu metal" in my mind at the time

the Korn debut is very grunge/alternative compared to the later stuff.

i mean there's definite overlap. mudvayne is the band i always like to cite that started off as a proggier slipknot and turned into staind-esque post-grunge xp

i do like "hippie grunge" as a description of incubus lol. imo they were another strain of "bands influenced by faith no more," early incubus sounds exactly like king for a day

Now that Staind has been evoked, Aaron Lewis as a Saving Country Music-approved troubadour is some sort of weird stock rise.

i think of peak korn as 'follow the leader' -> 'issues' i listened to the early stuff a bit to get an idea of how they evolved but i think of their commercial & creative peaks as being fairly synonymous ... sorry im a nu metal poptimist

Have no problem with a nu-metal revival at this point as long as it doesn’t include staind or creed who were always I guess more post-grunge and the worst legacy of the era.

i am too! issues and untouchables are the best korn records imo (follow the leader is a mess but the singles are perfect so whatever) xp

Aaron Lewis is the plumber joe of grunge.

"wish you were here" by incubus is great ... the line about the star looking like a backlit canopy with holes cut in it is sublime lols/profundity

incubus is an extremely good band imo

Papa Roach's 'Last Resort' is still vaguely alive as a meme.

creed is tough for me to get into still. Real Pearl Jam-ish and i never liked them either. Staind I kinda like the singles, compared w/ like Korn they are def not album artists though ... "Outside" and "Its Been Awhile" are strong IMO, I'd be curious if anyone has any Staind deep cut they think is on that level but I tried to dig in & couldn't make it too far

the star

i meant the sky

favorite lol/profound incubus lyric: "to obtain a bird's eye is to turn a blizzard to a breeze"

Sort of tangentially related ICP are ... Cypress Hill biters mainly??

xp lol

Rage Against the Machine always stood apart from nu-metal even though they probably inspired most of it, and there's definitely been some critical reappraisal, but maybe not as much as I'd expect? Seems like they'd be a great band for right now.

many xposts: I wonder if R.E.M. suffered from Simpsons syndrome: the longer they went past their peak, the more their stock diminished, and that period is still relatively recent. My girlfriend is a R.E.M. super fan (for demographical context, she's 28) so I went through their catalog earlier this year when we began dating, and was surprised at how little they seem to be talked about anymore compared to how big (and imho, fantastic) they were in their prime -- R.E.M. just barely cracked the top 40 of the more recent Pitchfork best of the 80s list, for instance. Maybe it'll swing around once they've been broken up another decade.

i think it says something very interesting about this cultural moment that the children and teenagers of 2019 have restructured the classic rock canon in such a way that ELO, queen, elton john, and fleetwood mac have come out on top.

coupled with the more agreeable aspects of poptimism that ime seemed to have bled over into the broader culture, namely that it's okay for grown men to enjoy britney spears and madonna

and then this:

"For a prototypical Beatle fan in 2019, just look to Emma Gonzalez, the Florida teen who became a gun-control (and LGBTQ) activist last year. She’s a Ringo stan who loves to wear her Fabs shirt in TV interviews and wrote on Twitter, “I feel like Beatles songs were made to be sung by powerful women.”"

which i think is (a) a testament to the enduring influence of the beatles and their seemingly endless ability to speak to the most divergent of individuals and circumstances, (b) evidence that today's youths are as thoughtful, perceptive, and subversive as ever, and (c) and indication that values have shifted significantly and i'd guess that most young people would want their music to either reflect that or at least be open to critical re-readings

I get the impression that, while postpunk has declined as mentioned upthread, goth & industrial has risen?

*have risen, ugh

Rammstein - the new album is good and all, and they still sell out massive stadiums, but their shtick is pretty much done.

I feel like I'm starting to see the buds of REM becoming positively reassessed again although very early

also the beatles are always going to be an enormous cultural force. they will always be talked about and widely loved by the young and old. just deal with it and move on with your life if you don't like them imo

many xps

I get the impression that, while postpunk has declined as mentioned upthread, goth & industrial has risen?

― Auld Drink of Misery (zchyrs), Wednesday, July 10, 2019 1:47 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

this kind of feels like it *should* be happening, but it seems like it doesn't go far past marilyn manson/NIN, so like the mall/commercial version rather than, idk, Ministry or KMFDM

Sinatra: stock up?

I think the Grateful Dead reassessment was in the last decade ya?

hard to tell bc it feels like something that's been happening forever & may not have even peaked

xxp Yeah, I feel like it's more the cachet of goth as a vibe that has become cool again? When I was in high school 15 years ago, we all thought goth was a bad joke (an allergic reaction to the 90s stuff, I reckon); but these days it seems like the cool kids are into black lipstick and the occult. I guess this ties into the larger 90s revival.

TS: early 80s Goth vs late 90s Goth

R.E.M. just barely cracked the top 40 of the more recent Pitchfork best of the 80s list, for instance.

and it (murmur) was #5 in the best of 80s list they published in 2002

I feel like trip hop, industrial, nu metal, emo, all have good claims on being due for a revival

i was going to suggest Billie Eilish has a bit of the goth to her which might cause a revival in some quarters but i think she's also influenced by a lot of the other music discussed here (not the Who)

triphop kind of already had it with chillwave

mudvayne is the band i always like to cite that started off as a proggier slipknot and turned into staind-esque post-grunge

Mudvayne's The End of All Things to Come was produced by David Bottrill (Tool, King Crimson) and was surprisingly prog and weird. I liked it a lot at the time.

the two p4k '80s lists are a somewhat direct way to look at changing tastes imo, though it also follows a philosophy change in p4k from being an indie music site to a site with a broader perspective. Below is the 2018 top 15 of the 80s.

15. Beastie Boys – Paul’s Boutique (#3 on 2002 list)
14. Pixies – Doolittle (#4)
13. The Smiths – The Queen Is Dead (#6)
12. Joy Division – Closer (#10)
11. Eric B. & Rakim – Paid in Full (#52)
10. Sade – Diamond Life (NR)
9. The Cure – Disintegration (#38)
8. Janet Jackson – Control (NR)
7. Sonic Youth – Daydream Nation (#1)
6. Public Enemy – It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back (#9)
5. Talking Heads – Remain In Light (#2)
4. Kate Bush – Hounds of Love (#92)
3. N.W.A. – Straight Outta Compton (#35)
2. Michael Jackson – Thriller (#27)
1. Prince and the Revolution – Purple Rain (#12)

Rage Against the Machine always stood apart from nu-metal even though they probably inspired most of it, and there's definitely been some critical reappraisal, but maybe not as much as I'd expect? Seems like they'd be a great band for right now.

― change display name (Jordan), Wednesday, July 10, 2019 6:46 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah I definitely agree with this - I think of RATM as 'proto nu-metal' along with things like Machine Head, Sepultura circa Chaos AD/Roots, Fear Factory... FNM obviously, Biohazard maybe? This stuff was all very popular in my peer group when I first got into musuc - at the time I really liked Korn for the first two albums but I've tried revisiting them and it all just sounds bad.

and the albs that fell out of the 2002 top 15:

5. R.E.M. - Murmur (#39 in 2018)
7. Pixies - Surfer Rosa (#32)
8. Tom Waits - Rain Dogs (#42)
11. Tom Waits - Swordfishtrombones (NR)
13. The Fall - This Nation's Saving Grace (#79)
14. Sonic Youth - Sister (NR)
15. XTC - Skylarking (#133)

The Fall's stock seems to have, well, fallen; they certainly didn't seem to gain any broader cultural glow from MES's death.

(Not that they were every a huge deal, but you heard about them a lot in the '90s)

I think that might in part be attributable to MES' documented history of spousal abuse

Run-DMC has, to our detriment, fallen, as had much golden age mid 80s hip hop


I feel like the Fall is pretty much exactly the same

xp I haven't heard of that, or Daltry's pro-Brexit stance, or J-Lo being given gifts meant for other artists, etc. Some of y'all read too much, lol

triphop kind of already had it with chillwave

― Siegbran, Wednesday, 10 July 2019 18:59 (sixteen minutes ago) link

Nah I mean some form of trip hop just always exists like now it would be hip hop beats to study to, I mean more a revival of the specific aesthetic touchpoints of that era

how many people still consider the 80s as the hiphop golden age?

not as many, is def mid 90s to early 00s

i think of peak korn as 'follow the leader' -> 'issues' i listened to the early stuff a bit to get an idea of how they evolved but i think of their commercial & creative peaks as being fairly synonymous ... sorry im a nu metal poptimist

― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Wednesday, July 10, 2019 2:40 PM (thirty-nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Absolute dogshit opinion

Korn will tear us apart

Sepultura circa Chaos AD/Roots, Fear Factory... FNM obviously, Biohazard maybe

I loved all of these at the time and bet a lot of it holds up, but most nu-metal proper is still aesthetically repellent to me (I don't even really like it when it's sampled for arty club tracks)

The first few times I tried listening to Who's Next, all I could to think to myself was 'they don't deserve this drummer'.

― pomenitul, Wednesday, July 10, 2019 11:32 AM (two hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

lol

The Fall are a cult band with no real broad cultural appeal and MES is very nearly irredeemable as a human being, it doesn't really surprise me that they didn't get the same boost.

I just don't want any talking in my music, unless it's an alt-right cover of 'Institutionalized'.

As a superfan I agree, that's still quite a drop on the Pfork list

xp

Absolute dogshit opinion

― space invaders are smokin penises!!!! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, July 10, 2019 2:20 PM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Going to argue “I liked korn when they were underground” abt a band that thrived mallcore era is actually the dogshit opinion

Beastie Boys definitely an example of even death not able to stop the critical decline.

Speaking of deaths, Tupac seems to have lost a fair bit of magic over the past decade.

Beck too, come to think of it.

(Except he's still alive.)

Speaking of deaths, Tupac seems to have lost a fair bit of magic over the past decade.

― Siegbran, Wednesday, July 10, 2019 2:33 PM (one minute ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is 180 degrees wrong. Kendrick literally banked off Tupac to a Pulitzer

yeah I feel like Pac still resonates, both as music and just as an icon like Cobain, same w Biggie

Beck's still surprisingly huge. He's headlining sheds this summer (albeit over Cage The Elephant & Spoon), and most of his biggest Spotify tracks are from the last 7 or so years.

Huh, then I haven't been paying attention at all.

in retrospect Kid Rock's schtick was a little limited but he has a few moments ... I feel like he should have had more great songs before he turned country than he actually did

He was doing Hank Jr covers by 1993, but yeah, it felt like he could have gone one more album with rapping on it at the time he shifted completely. Now, it seems like a lucky escape.

MES is very nearly irredeemable as a human being

!?!

This is 180 degrees wrong. Kendrick literally banked off Tupac to a Pulitzer

― ILX’s bad boy (D-40)

Google seems to record only a fairly slow decline, but I'm not sure I'm 180 degrees wrong.

The guy w the last #1 rap album in the country posted a photo of pac on his ig stories the day it came out & he’s like 20 years old

Beck isn't quite this but this thread is a factor

that stage where you think they aren't popular anymore but are actually way more popular than they were when they had "buzz"

I don’t think google trends are good measures of critical appreciation

possible that his music has fallen a bit while his image/iconography has kept steady, if not increased

2pac has 10.4 mil monthly listeners on Spotify (and hip-hop streams better on apple music, so who knows what's going on over there)

I won't claim Google or Spotify stats paint the full picture or that I say anything with authority. Those charts are pretty cool, do we feel this one is accurate for example, in terms of relative popularity?

I think Hootie and the Blowfish were mentioned tangentially but there was recently a Jon Caramanica piece in the NY Times saying they were due for a reassessment.

MES is very nearly irredeemable as a human being

!?!

a bully, an employer who created consistently dangerous work conditions for his employees, a public spousal abuser

I wonder if R.E.M. suffered from Simpsons syndrome: the longer they went past their peak, the more their stock diminished, and that period is still relatively recent.

I agree with this -- and it feels like they never really "went away" (see the popular podcast, etc.). They're like uncool uncles always lurking in the background of a family gathering; you can't miss them because they never leave.

I also think even their "best" music ('80s/'90s) is really specific to its era in a way, and isn't likely to prove "timeless" or see a huge revival of interest. Same for an associated band like 10,000 Maniacs.

I think Hootie and the Blowfish were mentioned tangentially but there was recently a Jon Caramanica piece in the NY Times saying they were due for a reassessment.

I work at a ticket vendor and we've had a lot of orders for their tour — yesterday someone dropped $900 to see them. Ten years ago I'd have thought that by now, at best, they'd be doing some nostalgia tour with Deep Blue Something and Blessid Union of Souls at a casino. Must be Rucker's solo career?

xxp Are you referring solely to the onstage assault in NYC in 1998, or other things I'm not aware of?

c'mon dude I'm one of the biggest Fall fans here and I am in total agreement with sic's assessment here

read Brix's autobio for more awful details

I haven't read it, that's why I'm asking. I'm aware he could be a "bully" at times, and I know about the 1998 incident, but I've never heard of "consistently dangerous work conditions" or spousal abuse.

Brix herself didn't seem to find him "irredeemable": https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/the-falls-brix-smith-mark-e-smith-defied-convention-and-definition-202911/

the spousal abuse is well known and was touched on in most obituaries. to be more clear: he just generally was known to be physically violent to people around him including spouses, friends and bandmates

i don't necess agree this makes him irredeemable but quite an unsympathetic character in many ways clearly

Absolute dogshit opinion

― space invaders are smokin penises!!!! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, July 10, 2019 2:20 PM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Going to argue “I liked korn when they were underground” abt a band that thrived mallcore era is actually the dogshit opinion

― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Wednesday, July 10, 2019 3:33 PM (forty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

They had a platinum record when Carson Daly was still a KROQ DJ, dogg

xp
I skimmed the below obits; none seem to detail abuse beyond the 1998 arrest. If that's what the assessment hinges on, then fair enough, but that doesn't seem to be what you're saying. I agree he's not the most sympathetic character, but "very nearly irredeemable as a human being" is quite an assessment.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/jan/24/mark-e-smith-obituary
https://www.nme.com/blogs/nme-blogs/mark-e-smith-obituary-the-fall-2227837
https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/mark-e-smith-prolific-singer-of-post-punk-group-the-fall-dead-at-60-201853/
https://pitchfork.com/news/the-falls-mark-e-smith-dead-at-60/
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/25/obituaries/mark-e-smith-of-the-fall-dies.html

In my world of young people (ie ppl at the basketball courts), Tupac is one of the only pre-2000 rappers they fuck with. I also have heard Redman & WuTang come up on their playlists.

xp. hmm, generally surprises me that they shied away from it so much in the obits. there were definitely more critical pieces around after his death.

is Mark E Smith less redeemable than, say, John Lennon

Or Lou Reed.

yes imo, all squarely in the "almost irredeemable" category with emphasis on the "almost"

Jim - have you read Steve Hanley's book?

Or GG Allin.

2xp

i like how I'm the one being asked to defend calling him irredeemable when it wasn't me who said that

I’m not asking you to defend it (for the record!)

(“One more time for the record...”)

he infamously treated everyone under him (bandmates, sound engineers, roadies, etc.) like dogshit, not only being physically abusive but also prone to firing guys on a whim and leaving them stranded thousands of miles from home. I remember one ex-bandmate talking about lasting psychological damage, how Smith really did convince you that you weren't good enough to work in the music biz, and I suspect there were many others. obviously none of that changes the fact that he was brilliant himself and influenced a lot of great stuff...but yeah...as a human being...

exactly, see also:

https://www.amazon.com/Fallen-Life-Britains-Insane-Group/dp/1847671446

Beastie Boys definitely an example of even death not able to stop the critical decline.

? idk anybody that's revised their opinion downward of their classic era. that Beastie Boys Book seemed to do pretty well.

Yeah I thought that the Beasties were universally loved now

beastie boys are loved but are they "relevant" in 2019?

nothing is relevant

^^^^ speaking as someone deeply unaware of current trends I support this premise

well they refuse to go on without Yauch and won't license out any of their music out so how 'relevant' can it they be now really

sure their influence has diminished in the last couple decades but most of that shouty/quirky rap stuff sucked anyway

current trends = also not relevant

well using a sui generis definition of relevant you've just made up sure.

beastie boys right now feel like the andrew sisters would've felt to someone during the summer of love. sure they're famous and a beloved act for people of a certain vintage, but do they mean anything to mainstream pop (youth) culture? no

i mean this stuff isn't just nostalgia-popular its actively Cool for zoomers & young millennials

― ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Wednesday, July 10, 2019

In Scotland it was certainly all the zoomers that were into nu-metal.

there is no such thing as mainstream pop (youth) culture

everything is just a niche now, capable of being completely cordoned off from other niches. some niches are larger than others, but none has a claim to being monolithic.

^not a youth

https://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2019/02/drake.jpg?quality=100&w=650

https://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2018/04/post-malone-2.jpg?quality=100&w=650

I am around a lot of youths

world of young ppl etc

lol fair enough

if there's a gap in my youth knowledge it's the 18-21 demo, but I can claim a fair amount of exposure to teens/tweens and fresh-out-of-college folks

i got in a car for the first time w/a 24-25 yr old guy i worked with and he was listening to....the Doobie Brothers! but he was home schooled in Indiana so

henlo i teach HS seniors, drake and postie are v v popular

as those Spotify figures posted hours ago show, the top twenty would not shock a record company dude 20 years ago The Big Ones (Beatles, Eagles, Phil Collins, Stones, etc) remain big, deserved Big Ones have caught up (Queen), a few young turks, etc

it's prob a topic for another thread, but my feeling is that there's much less of a monolithic youth culture now than throughout the 2nd 1/2 of the 20th century but it still exists to some degree.

the only monolith is that the fucking Beatles remain a touchstone

I work at a university,most of the youngs are normie and listen to the big acts you'd expect drake etc. Compared go when I was at university there's also less specific subcultural ways of dressing

just going from my own experience, there's a lot MORE monolithicosity between races/ethnicities/cliques. EVERYONE listens to hiphop now. Everyone listens to rnb. Everyone listens to pop. And nobody listens to rock lol. Maybe I need to hang around the few kids I see who dress like goths.

the 20 yr old I really liked who was in town for drug rehab had on a Nirvana shirt and that was 1st time I saw a younging wearing something like that. But when there was the goofy in-car sing along to Adele, he joined in too!

the the post malone/swae lee song from spiderverse is really good

there's also less specific subcultural ways of dressing

agree this is very striking. youth subcultures no longer subdivide along aesthetic lines, to a large extent, which is really weird to someone who grew up being able to tell what people were into based on how they dressed.

the hegemony of streetwear

^^ my memoir title

Oh yeah, musically the Beastie Boys have less influence/relevance than ever, for sure. But I think there are other aspects that have aged well (their style, woke Yauch, their videos, etc), and they're generally beloved elder statesmen in their retirement.

There's really nowhere to go but down for REM if you think about it-their correction seems almost inevitable.

the beastie boys were specifically their own thing and didn't have much influence yeah but i think they really do remain a group people have never lost their love for. the last couple albums weren't exactly iconic but i suspect at some point they'll get revisited and HSCP2 is especially pretty damn good imo.

REM is boring

I see yr controversial opinion hasn’t changed!

why change when you're correct