Depression and what it's really like

reason to go on living? to remember things, to be with others, to do the things that you need to do.

Get some help. Do you have a therapist or doctor you can go to? A good friend? Ask for help from someone. An excellent therapist who has really become more friend was the only person/thing in my life to keep me going at times. I'm eternally grateful to her. I hope you can find a similar life raft.

Remember above all else, no matter how unlikely it may seem now, you can live through this. One day you will feel better. Make that your goal, to see that day, and you have your reason to keep on going.

I mean, listen, I am so not trying to be cold, but I've been there. I mean, good god, the night I met my fiance I went on a complete bender, and ended up sobbing on the floor trying to slash my wrists with the first knife I could find (thankfully for me now, a butter knife - I was really piss drunk. Those things do damage though, surprisingly). And there's really nothing anyone can say or tell you is good about your life that is going to stop you from feeling that way, that's the way depression is, real hardcore depression at least.

The only thing I can tell you is that it's too soon into it to judge. If you keep telling yourself hang on for another day over and over, you might eventually find for yourself your reason to keep going. You just have to take a deep breath and say, "One more day. I will pretend to be normal for just one more day". And then say that tomorrow. And the day after. So on and so forth.

This might not help you or save you or stop you from doing what you currently seem to believe is inevitable. But it might just stay you long enough to find your way out of what's going on in your head right now.

You might want to go seek some sort of help, be it professional or otherwise, but being as I always refused to, I am being hypocritical to suggest it. I do hope you can find the strength to ask someone for help though, because once you do it really DOES help.

I'm not going to give a reason why you should go on Marcello, it'll be difficult to give a reason that you won't immediately dead-bat anyway. But, of course, you must go on and I can't think of a reason why you shouldn't.
But have you spoken a bereavement councellor at all? There are people who will understand and can help you. You have a family, have you spoken to them? It sounds trite but you aren't alone and you needen't feel alone. You just need some help Marcello, and no-one could blame you for how you feel but you must try to seek and accept help.
Thing's change. They always change.

There's all schools of thought about what happens when you die. There's all schools of thought about why there's "good" and "bad" in the world. Depressed people are usually fixated on "good", "bad" and "death", basically due to desires unfulfilled or seemingly unable to be fulfilled.

There's a bunch of people that believe a "perfect" God would somehow create a perfect entity that would turn "bad" (Satan) and convince people to doubt God's perfection (namely, by eating from the tree of good and evil), and, thereby causing this world of misery... Let's think about this for a second: perfect beings, according to this old lore, choose evil.

Why would that be?

Let's talk about reality, now, not old stories:
When everything is great, people still find much to complain about, sometimes more than people who lead miserable lives of poverty. This is because this is how the mind works. For instance, how long can you concentrate on one good thing and have it remain "good"? Everything's "goodness" and newness wears off because we live from moment to moment and it is impossible to freeze one moment of goodness in time, while continuing to move forward with our lives. Our minds label a thing as "good" or "bad" and has the tendency to move on, eager to label the next thing "good" or "bad". If you make a million dollars, you will quickly get used to the idea, rather than being fixated on how "good" it is to be rich, and you will start focusing on other desires. Whether the desire is for another million dollars or for finding someone who really "loves" you is not important. You follow your desires, and are neither fulfilled before you achieve your goals or after you achieve your goals.

Why is this?

Imagine that you attained perfection. How long would it last? Only for the moment. The rest of the time you would be trying to "freeze" this perfect moment in time forever, remembering how great it is to be perfect. But, it couldn't last and it wouldn't last. This is the way the universe works: everything is in flux.

So, then, imagine you kill yourself. Is that really the end to your misery? Science has many new ideas regarding creation of life, how the universe works, etc. One thing that sticks out is the fact that the universe has proven itself to be an intelligent system. Evolution occured, most likely, not out of chance, but by intelligent choice. The fact that the universe is nonlocal proves that everything is interconnected through some mysterious and invisible force (dark matter, perhaps?)

So, then, let's say you blow your head off. You are gone, in the mind of who you are. But, the greater intelligence of the universe still exists, and, in some way, you are part of it, you return to it. There really is no escape, except maybe from your minute perspective that currently resides in the shell of your head. Better to enjoy the individual perspective your body can provide while you have the opportunity. If you are striving to be happy, you will never be happy. You will always be striving to be happy. If you simply are happy in every moment, there is nothing to strive for... and that is the difference, as trite as it seems. Each shitty moment will pass, but it is only considered "shitty" if you choose to label it as such. So, let's say you're girlfriend dumped you... or you are ugly as sin... these are things you can dwell on or use as an opportunity to explore new things... like, dating or, if nobody finds you attractive in the least, there are many things that can fill the seeming void of companionship. After all, many people are dissatisfied with the companionship they aquire, even if they're get lots of it from lots of different people every week.

If nothing is interesting to you, seek out things you can identify with, like books on existentialism. It sounds like you are reeling from the futility of existence. But, existence is not futile. That's what it does. It just keeps existing... and there really is no escape from existence, there is only different perspectives about existence. Note: I am not suggesting you will be reincarnated, but whatever comes after death (and nobody really knows), one thing the universe shows us is that everything is the same and there is no "good" and "bad". There will always be suffering, change, etc. Be glad you are not living in worse circumstances, in the filth and ignorance of the dark ages, for instance.

because death is for wussies.

okay, two.

because you'd be insulting laura.

(when alexis was taken from me...so, suddenly, with no build up, just...alive, vibrant, calling me on her cell on the way to the airport at the beginning of the week and then...cold, in a box, made up by some ghoulish mary kay girl to recapture that flush she got when she was excited or turned on or laughing or angry or...alive...but that light had now gone out...it felt as if nine years had been eradicated from my life...i spent months feeling as if i was being cotinually...raped...mentally...and...i cant count the number of times i stood in front of a mirror...and thought...very seriously...calmly...about...doing...it...the big IT...it had never seemed so...easy...to slip away...

what stopped me?

imagining her...rage...at me doing something so stupid and fucking SELFISH...you have a fucking GIFT, man...you have the years she doesnt...you better fill them...every minute...with as much LIFE as you can...cuz like a baby you're eating for two now...and even if i ever find someone to make me feel the...unfettered joy...that she brought...i'll still be living the rest of my life FOR her in so many ways.

so don't do it.

okay?)

I still think there is not point but I'm not immobilised now. I can't tell you any reason to go on, just as I can't think of one for myself - except maybe hope and because it's easier to do nothing.

And by looking at the sky or touching a tree or digging in some dirt or lying on the grass, I am reminded that, even though there is no point, I might as well hang around and have momentary pleasurable experiences.

Shiatsu massage is one of those pleasureable experiences. Despite costing $50 and only lasting for an hour or so it may well be worth going on for.

www.shiatsu.8m.com/practitioners.htm

Go on, not because there's a point, but because eventually you'll learn to enjoy living again. I've never believed there's a point to life, but when you're not enjoying it either then it seems like you're just doing time.

I stopped wanting to do anything because no activity was enjoyable, so I had no inclination to do things. the inactivity was killing me and made it worse.

Regaining interest in things takes much healing time, but soon you become human again -- WANTING to do things. something I'd forgotten i ever did.

when you want to do something, and that thing is enjoyable, that's a feeling worth living for.

Want a hug so bad and the man won't be home for three hours. Fucking THESE DAYS. These fucking days.

::HUGZ:: come to ilx chatz is a happy fam

i give abbott hug & will not stab her man tonight even tho i want to

yes! come to chatz abbott there's lotsa love there

This book has helped me a lot.

**hug**

ILX thinks yr great, Abbs. Take that for whatever it's worth to you, you can totally pwn the next three hours.

I'd give him a call but like he needs to spend 15 minutes of work hearing me in choking sobs over the phone.

Why don't you give him a call and ask him to tell you a story, instead? That way you get to hear his voice and feel closer to him but won't feel like you're dumping on him...?

Also it will prob be a better story than the one about your dad and the birds. Because THAT'S not depressing or anything.

HAHAHAHA

I've been thinking about that one for the past few days. Why?

Hope the time passes quickly for you; depression is awful - I've so been there (not too badly lately, thankfully).

Hang in there. (And yeah, I'm sure that doesn't help much from a perfect stranger, but unless you're in southern Minnesota, it will be hard for me to invite you over for brownies or something!)

what kind of brownies

megabus is only a dollar and i'd pay a dollar for brownies.

http://forum.armedassault.info/style_emoticons/default/hug.gif

See? An hour has already passed! How you doin?

Damn this accursed MACHIIIIINE!

Just plain brownies! They are kind of fudgy - no nuts - very simple, with chocolate icing (really just chocolate chips melted with some butter). I made them because I was feeling low today.

Megabus sounds like something from My Neighbor Totoro. I must find out about it!

no weed, no visitation.

just kidding, id kill for any kind of homemade brownie right now.

and how is abbott doing now?? apparently no longer at her computer surfing ilx, which means: way better off than any of us.

I went and got a baked potato at Wendy's. Some good songs came on the radio that made me nostalgic. The nostalgia took me places I shouldn't have gone, but the potato was good. And, uh, pulling through, You guys 'r' swell.

megbus.

the bacon cheddar baked potato is the only baked potato worth having

you're crazy deeznuts. the bacon cheddar may be at the top of the baked potato hierarchy but by no means is it "the only baked potato worth having".

I am actually a fan of the potato skins with cheddar and bacon, with a side of sour cream and chives. Hit all the bases that way.

ok, fine. excuse me for being hyperbolic. the sour cream & chive is a delicious steal, & i would recommend it to anyone short of $2.49.

xp i didnt know this was possible?? i dont have a wendy's within 45 mins of me anymore tho

i know admitting it is like admitting that i enjoy the slaughter of kittens, but i have to say that i find baked potatos fairly nasty

Oh, not at Wendy's. They're awesome in diners or at home, though.

theyre mainly a starchy delivery device for cheese/sour cream/butter/etc

remy, do you eat them with like, stuff on them? cuz baked potatoes are disgusting, which is why you coat them w/ butter & sour cream & cheese & bacon, all of which are wonderful things that i fail to understand how anyone could not love.

xp tru!

fighting w/ my fiancee because i do what the psychiatrist + therapist tell me to do and she stubbornly fights them every inch of the way (we have different psychiatrists + therapists).

sucks.

Remy has v cultivated tastes, he probably likes more imaginative potato forms. I'm a simple person, though, and I like mine with lots and lots of salt and dairy product.

i havent had one of those in so long i should bake one up. sour cream is one of my favorite things.

actual potatoes made at my old apartment as part of an amorous evening. nothing hotter than cooking on a cold wet night.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2028/1582573169_debd965da4.jpg

rawr

Holy mother, give me those potatoes.

see, the ratio of baked potato:topping really has to be about 1:2 for me to eat without complaint, and by that point i could just as well be gnawing drywall. for what it's worth, i don't like french fries either, unless the fry:ketchup balance is tilted to a near-farcical point

Holy mother, give me those potatoes.

you can have the potatoes, give me that girl again...

Want a hug so bad and the man won't be home for three hours. Fucking THESE DAYS. These fucking days.

Trade 'man' for 'woman' and 'three hours' for '2 months'.

What's that sound effect in the Simpsons in the episode when Darlene from Roseanne tears out Bart's heart and throws it against the wall: "You won't be needing THIS anymore...ahahahahahaha"?

uuuuuuuuuunnnnngggggghhhhhhhh

gif or it didnt happen

I'm working on it. Softcore porn+Glowing Edges effect+Music

So when does one decide to call a therapist? I can't even begin to determine if I even have some form of depression (again). I... it seems easier just to shut up about it instead of talking about it.

Awww, Nathalie. I would say, if your depression starting to interfere with your ability to function, then that's time to step in and get the medical help.

Then again, I don't know. A lot of people manage to function on autopilot and go on autopilot and look after kids and go on, even though they're feeling totally dead inside.

Only you can make that call, but if it's affecting your ability to work, to sleep, eating, your interactions with the people that you love - your standard basics - then you need to call someone in to help you out.

Good luck with it. x

Thing is you can always see a therapist - see if it helps. I saw one for 2 years - found it very helpful.

Of course, they are therapists and there are therapists, one method might not work for you.

To be honest I think everyone should see one!

I... it seems easier just to shut up about it instead of talking about it.

For me this was crucial - I didn't want to talk about - it was too painful - to friends or family. Therapy "allows" you to do this without feeling "I'm just wasting everyone's time."

Does that make sense?

To be honest I think everyone should see one!

Yeah, woo. Also, everyone should spend a leisurely year in Paris, just drinking wine and eating cheese and malingering. So good for the soul.

To be honest I think you're being callous. Mental health care is really, really, really, REALLY expensive.

Er... at least around here. My medication alone costs $300 a month, not counting sessions with the doctor, and I am quickly entering a situation where I will be working to pay for my mental health so I can keep working so I can etc etc. It's like delivering pizza to pay for car repair.

Hi, welcome to The Sad Place, you must be This Depressed to enter.

I got mine on the NHS. Sorry, wasn't meaning to be callous.

Sorry, you touched a nerve. Nothing personal.

Natalie, have you been to see your doctor about it yet? I'd say definitely do that first if you're open to the idea (helped *a lot* when my wife had post-natal depression btw)

i think the nice thing about a therapist is that you're paying them to listen to you talk about what's wrong (& of course hopefully help you out). It's not like a friend, where you have to consider whether or not you're making them uncomfortable or expecting too much of them or you'd actually rather hear about what's going on in their life. Going to a therapist is useful even if you're just trying to work something very temporary out of your system: there is nothing to do there but talk. I know you're not supposed to think of it this way but sometimes i sort of see the ~therapeutic space~ as the place where you talk about it so you can stay shut up about it everywhere else.

xps, No I wasn't thinking. I have no idea what the situation is like in Belgium for instance. I'm just a bit...er...enthusiastic about it because it did me so much good. Continues to do so, too. I get a bit carried away.

If cost is an issue then look into CBT, it's remarkably quick - ten sessions max on the NHS - and has really done wonders for me, just in terms of getting out of the mental rut I was in, transforming my attitude, restoring confidence etc.

Cost is not that big of an issue but, well, finding a good therapist is. Belgium has good healthcare. I think I could check with my doctor first and then it would be even cheaper? I had one but he ignored my cries for help in regard to my panic attacks. Really strange. I wanted to ask: "Why don't you HEAR me when I talk about my panic attacks?" Instead I just gave up and stopped going. I'm not sure if I need to. I have the (wrong) idea that this is me, this is how I feel at times so why bother with addressing this "problem". I also feel I'm a bit silly for being this way because I simply don't have anything to complain about. Yes, I know, that's not really the issue. I also don't like talking about it cause I just start crying. IF I don't, then I can just pretend it's not here/there/anywhere.

I don't think it's postnatal depression unless hahaha it extends to 16 months after giving birth. haha

I dunno, it can last for quite a while. But whatever it is, I'd say it's still worth giving your doctor a go first.

If your doctor refuses to listen to you when you bring up panic attacks, then that's cause to find a new doctor. A good doctor pays attention to their patient's mental state of health, as well as physical. If you told your doctor that you were having sharp pains in your head, and he just ignored you, instead of sending to check you for migraines, would you keep going to him? Why should mental health be any different? Panic attacks are a symptom - they're a sign that the mind is in distress and needs some kind of attention. You can't just ignore them like that, if you're a doctor.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=depressions-evolutionary

kinda inneresting

That is really really really interesting and also reminds me to post this point from an article in Discover Magazine called "The Seven Deadly Sins" (sadly I don't think the art is avail online):

Most of us perceive ourselves as slightly smarter, funnier, more talented, and better-looking than average. These rose-colored glasses are apparently important to mental health, the psychological immune system that protects us from despair. "Those who see themselves as they truly are -- not so funny, a bad driver, overweight -- have a greater chance of being diagnosed with clinical depression," says Julian Paul Keenan, director of the cognitive imagine laboratory and professor of psychology at Montclair State University in New Jersey.

For most of us, it takes less mental energy to puff ourselves up than to think critically about our own abilities. In one recent neuroimaging study by blah blah in Japan, volunteers who imagined themselves winning a prize or trouncing an opponent showed less activation in brain regions associated with introspection and self-conscious thought than people induced to feel negative emotions such as embarrassment.

In one recent neuroimaging study by blah blah in Japan

...by who?

Oh fine. It's a long description and I was typing it out by hand. Gawd.

Hidehiko Takahashi of the National Institute of Radiological Sciences in Japan.

Those who see themselves as they truly are -- not so funny, a bad driver, overweight

thanks for your opinion julian

lol @ "blah blah"

xpost -- Haha, no worries, I just thought this was a copy/paste from an online article and I was boggling a bit.

"Prof. Blah, well known for his self-deprecation..."

i'm not that great of a driver, tevs

No, as I already said, the damn article ISN'T AVAILABLE ONLINE.

When one considers all the evidence, depression seems less like a disorder where the brain is operating in a haphazard way, or malfunctioning. Instead, depression seems more like the vertebrate eye—an intricate, highly organized piece of machinery that performs a specific function.

ehhhh......

I don't know about that guy, but my eye is invertebrate.

i think he's talking about the dude from korn's mic stand

Most of us perceive ourselves as slightly smarter, funnier, more talented, and better-looking than average.

So most people are basically all running around thinking they are better than the other? That's funny. Me, I belong in the group prone to depression, I guess, or rather I think I'm pretty darn average to below average.

Keenan is also using transcranial magnetic stimulation to disrupt deliberate self-deprecation -- the type of unctuous, ingratiating behavior that seems humble but is actually arrogance in disguise. Patterns of brain activation during self-deprecation are fundamentally the same as those during self-deceptive pride, Keenan is finding. Both are forms of one-upmanship. "They're in the same location and seem to serve the same purpose: putting oneself ahead in society," he says.

When one considers all the evidence, depression seems less like a disorder where the brain is operating in a haphazard way, or malfunctioning. Instead, depression seems more like the vertebrate eye—an intricate, highly organized piece of machinery that performs a specific function.

ehhhh......

I don't see anything wrong with the analogy fwiw

as someone who has been a loved one to depressed ppl i'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the analogy but it's just kinda ehhhhhhh

don't know what actual depressed ppl might say fwiw

it kinda depends on how you define "malfunctioning" ...

i guess all i mean is when my dad was really depressed if someone had told me his depression was "an intricate, highly organized piece of machinery that performs a specific function" i would have probably assaulted them.

a parasite can also be defined as such ...

yeah i totally get this desc

i dont think call all destroyer doesnt "get" the description

shut up max

no YOU

^^ this what depression is really like

reading these last few posts has been depressing

Going on a pathetic archive.org binge, looking up friends webpages from high school, and somehow ended up at a photoagallery from a few weeks ago of a friend who just got married, one of my very best friends from back in the day. He looks so happy with his bf (I guess his husband now), I have so few real friends anymore. Anyway, sad lonely guy just thinking about things on the internet, but god, FUCK 2009 so far

http://www.funnychill.com/files/cool-pictures/clock-sad-face.jpg

waaah fergettit

everything must die!

Going on a pathetic archive.org binge, looking up friends webpages from high school, and somehow ended up at a photoagallery from a few weeks ago of a friend who just got married, one of my very best friends from back in the day. He looks so happy with his bf (I guess his husband now), I have so few real friends anymore. Anyway, sad lonely guy just thinking about things on the internet, but god, FUCK 2009 so far

I never think in quantity when it comes to friends, really? Then again that's probably cause I have very few friends. I simply don't need a ton of friends.

Of course she looks happy: she's supposed to. :-)

I'm simply some vague internet thing, but I still send you some hugs. :-)

Discussions of depression almost always get muddled up by confusing clinical depression, which is a mental health problem, with just being unhappy, which is as common as spit.

The usual cure for unhappiness is to understand the cause of it and to decide you can change it. Since understanding the causes of your unhappiness and correctly identifying what to do to change it are both processes that are prone to error, ignorance and self-delusion, it can take quite a few iterations of this to tip the balance in your favor.

Clinically depressed people, otoh, are incapable of acting to change their situation. They need help.

Clinically depressed people, otoh, are incapable of acting to change their situation. They need help. - yes, the problem is that it is that the line b/c CD & the more situational variety is often so subtle, or the transition so smooth, that it is very difficult to distinguish one from the other, at least not until the CD reaches such ridiculous extremes that it reveals itself for what it is. It is a slippery slope, this depression stuff. Best just to consult a professional from the outset & let them help you sort out what needs to be done.

This - incapable of acting to change their situation is the crux of the matter.

The sense of hopelessness leads to a sense of helplessness. That learned helplessness, like animals in labs.

That even when you have identified the cause - or at least the principle aggravator - of your depression, you still feel utterly helpless and unable to do anything about it. The feeling of "it does not matter if I move or I don't move, I will be administered an electric shock either way." Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Yeah, I just came out of a major CD funk last year & you really do feel helpless & trapped inside an existential catch-22. I hate to think where it would have led to if not for the guidance of those close to me. I came out of it (thank god), but I wish I'd been more hip to what was going on earlier b/c I simply would like all that time back! I'm so scared of heading down that path again that, these days, if I wake up with a normal case of the blues I contemplate calling my doctor.

Hell of a lot of times it's been peeps like my awesome husband who basically pack me in a suitcase and drop me off at the therapist when I'm far gone in the depressio camp as I'm obviously too one with my bed & blankets to be functional. OTOH the idea that I'm "incapable of acting to change [my] situation" is one I know is DAMN dangerous. "Change" meaning maybe being able to take a shower, put on real clothes, things I know will put me in a slightly more functional frame.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ2En_1IfhI

On the OTHER other hand there's sometimes the idea that there IS a way to change the situation by a gun to the head. Fuck that. What I'm saying is I realize w/me there's a lot of ideas that are bad that try to settle like birds on my head and I have to shake them before they lay eggs.
I heard this metaphor when I was 16 and it has resulted in this habit of literally shaking my head like a wet dog to connote kicking the damn thing out. Just what I need, another weird tic, right? But it works for me on some level I guess.

If you are capable of finding the will to get up, take a shower and put on real clothes, all by yourself, then you haven't yet reached the last stage of incapacity, thankfully. But if that is consistently about all you can accomplish before you exhaust your ability to act, then I'd say you should still be considered clinically depressed - which isn't shameful, just important to know and for others around you to recognize, so you can get to the therapist and get more help.

It's not like I am saying you or other depressed people are, by definition, incapable and therefore beyond change, but more of a functional definition, based on current observable behavior, requiring outside intervention and assistance.

btw, I like the shaking your head thing. Sounds effective.

I'm more than familiar w/clinical depression, Aimless!

Some of this lady's stuff has helped me – DEFS not saying it's a global solution or that it will work for everyone. She has this thing where you set up sort of a living will-type document to tell others (and yourself) how you want to be treated when yr too far gone.

Ugh, sorry for my stupid revive last night. I understand the distinction between being really bummed out over certain events or circumstances, and the more persistent CD. I wasn't trying to pretend like I'm really depressed, I just wanted to vent and drunkenly went for this one to revive. My post looks pretty stupid sitting up against the legitimate problems that a lot of people were/are discussing in this thread. That said, thanks stevienixed.

ZS don't feel bad. fwiw (not saying you did the wrong thing, don't feel embarrassed) this is the thread I post to when I've got that vibe: I'm sad home of Abbott the sad revivalist.

that's the one. I'd seen it before, I just couldn't remember the name. I need to create a bookmarks folder called "click here when you're in the midst of a downward drunken spiral"

The world really is your oyster, ZS. You are the best.

Jeez, that's a really nice thing to say, thanks!

Birds laying eggs in an interesting metaphor, Abbot. I always had the metaphor of "thoughtworms" from that Weather Prophets song. "I've got a worm in my brain, it brings me to my knees, it comes on like a thought, and stays just like a disease."

You think it's a thought, so you think it, but it doesn't go anywhere, it just goes round and round in circles and eats your brain, eats your actual thoughts, sucks the life and soul and happiness and joy right out of your head. It's kind of like a computer virus, but for a sentient brain.

The thoughtworms have been getting cleverer lately - they come on like thoughts about things I genuinely believe, they hide themselves inside philosophy and ideals. But they're still thoughtworms. It's taken some readjustment recently to try and understand that a lot of the things I have been thinking about Feminism are, actually, thoughtworms piggybacking on genuine beliefs to get into my head and destroy shit.

The thing that really gets to me, is how isolated I am. That my family live SO FAR away from me. I realised yesterday that I hadn't talked to my mum in two weeks, and that was part of why I was getting so far down. The thought that there was no one on "my side" at all. Living alone is bad for shit like that.

I used to have the "where does it come from" thread bookmarked for cases of emergency, but that's kind of been ruined now. :-(

If you are capable of finding the will to get up, take a shower and put on real clothes, all by yourself, then you haven't yet reached the last stage of incapacity, thankfully.

i recommend crawling to the hospital in filthy clothes if this is the case. saved my life once or twice. (not literally crawling, obviously. that would hurt.)

(i do recommend researching the hospitals first. though obviously if you've reached a certain point its time to cling to the first passing plank.)

When I was an adolescent, my family used to dump me in the Crisis Centre of the nearest Mental Hospital when my behaviour got more than they could handle.

I think this has created a long-lasting fear of ever going to a hospital or calling a help line or anything like that. The fear that I will be taken away and dumped somewhere.

;_;

it's a big fear to overcome. it took a LOT of stamina the first time. in a weird way, though, that was a pretty good indicator of will-to-go-on etc. even in hindsight.

for real!

my dad's mom was mentally ill - probably now she'd be considered bipolar, but this was the 60s - and after both my dad and his sister were off at college, she really lost it, and my grandfather just couldn't deal with it anymore and sent her to a mental institution and divorced her. I think that's probably my greatest fear - that something like that will happen to me, even though my problems aren't nearly as severe as hers.

the laws for involuntary commitment are a LOT different now. kind of a weird thing to use as a panacea but whatever gets you through the day.

iirc once you're over 18 your family can't do anything to direct or control your mental health choices

If you say that you are having thoughts about killing yourself, they can keep you as long as they like - I mean, until they can prove that you are no longer a danger to yourself.

It;s like this catch 22. I think about suicide all the time. This is normal for me, but usually it's only once or twice a day. When it becomes *constant* when it becomes thinking through methods (even if only to discount the ones I could never ever do because it would be too painful) - i *know* that that is the point at which I *know* I should get some help.

But if I tell anyone in the mental health profession that I'm having serious thoughts of suicide, they are obliged to report that and get me sectioned. Fuck that shit, I'm not going back there. Mental hospitals *make* you crazier than you ever went in.

maybe u.k./u.s. difference here, but i really don't believe that. different stokes, obvs, regardless of geography.

(by which i mean i don't want to discount anyone's opinions based on my own experiences, etc.)

xp - I don't know whether it was involuntary or not ... my parents and my dad's sister were all outside of the country when it happened. I don't know whether she died there (she died shortly before I was born), or whether she was only there for a little while.

Anyway, because of that, it's really important to me to have close friends outside of family/romantic relationships, so that I don't feel alone or dependent on ties to only a few people. My grandmother was the typical post-war housewife, and outside of her family, she had nothing - no real relationships with others, no means of supporting herself, etc.

What can a hospital do for you if you are in that kind of state?

I'm not asking rhetorically or cynically (though I am probably suspicious due to experiences) but genuinely want to know - I don't know. In the hopes it might be helpful?

I suppose I could just call my doctor and go and say "I'm depressed as fuck - this is a bad one" but what's he gonna do but fuck with my medication, and I don't have the sick time left if it goes wrong. I read that page Abbott recommended, and I suppose I need to follow some of the suggestions there - things I know do work, but I forget when I'm in the thick of it.

-get some more light, leave the house/basement office, stand in the sunshine even if I hate it

-do some light exercise, even if it's just getting on the machine for five minutes, it's better than nothing

I'll do that for a week, and if it hasn't started to lift, I'll go to the doctor.

I think as far as hospitalization goes - it's something if you can't take care of yourself (eat, clean, go to work, etc.) or as was mentioned upthread, if you're likely to try to take your own life.

well for me "going into the hospital" has always been the sort of thing where it's gone beyond "having the sick time." it's a point where work and everything else seems...not even secondary or tertiary. just not even on the game board anymore. i'm not recommending it as a first step at all.

That's what I like abt that site is she has you think abt what works for you when you're doing ok & then you have this checklist of things you know you need to do when you're so thick in it you can't think or see.

I suppose it's a good sign that I can still drag myself to work, even if I have been spending a good proportion of the day weeping in the loo. I haven't been that down as Strongo describes since I started this job. I was there in the last job, though. Got through that with booze, I'm sorry to say.

yeah, Abbott - I know all of those things on that list, there's nothing there I don't know. But it's stuff that I *forget* that it is there, or that it works. Or think "no, I'm too far gone for that" but then I remember it really is those little things that get you back from too far gone to hanging in there again.

I always fantasize abt getting hit by a car to have some 'sick time.' If I went to the hospital here w/a (mental/emotional) problem they'd cuff me to the bed, shove me full of atavan (sp?), charge me $500+ and kick me out. That's just here in Las Cruces, tho, YMMV obviously. No one can get on your case about getting hit by a car.

Got through that with booze, I'm sorry to say.

this.

I've been using way more alcohol than normal ;_;

Kate, I can't remember from previous posts, but how do you feel about counselling/talk therapy/etc? The westminster pastoral foundation - http://www.wpf.org.uk/ - has a network of places that focus on affordable counselling, both short and long term, which might not be immediately useful if you're at the worst of a slump but could be useful in making it manageable.

overuse of 'useful' there, marvellous.

Couldn't even do booze this time. In fact, booze was what brought this on, had a few whiskies and ended up having a twitter meltdown and broadcasting to the world that I wanted to die. :-( Still depressed and now everyone I know thinks I'm an attention seeking brat.

I have been on the mental health treadmill for 25+ years. At this point, there really isn't anything that any other counsellor could ever say to me or talk me through that would make a difference.

Sometimes I think maybe group therapy would be useful - because it's the isolation that is killing, and the way that "normal people" who have no experience with bipolar disorder just DO. NOT. UNDERSTAND. what the fuck it is like. That maybe talking to other people who go through this on a regular basis would be more helpful.

has anyone here had any good experiences with group therapy or support groups at all?

i have to say group therapy freaks me out far more than going to a hospital.

Why? How is it really any different to a thread like this, but without trolls and board lawyers watching?

because i'm a writer and more naturally inclined to type than to talk?

Makes sense, OK.

I just find that social isolation is one of my biggest problems, and one of the biggest triggers. Writing on the internet, for me (YMMV) often makes me feel more isolated, not less.

I'm just putting this link here to investigate tomorrow when I have a decent connection, it's the British Manic Depressive Fellowship - sorry, Bipolar Organisation.

http://www.mdf.org.uk/

For a support group to function, most of the members need to be fairly functional, or they can't offer much support. So, I guess this is a way of saying YMMV. I think that any if a group defined as in "group therapy", the chances are greater that most members of the group are currently a mess.

fwiw, a relative of mine's in group therapy and from what she's said I didn't get the impression that it was a group where most were a mess. The problem she was bringing was mostly related to workplace bullying and attendant depression, and it sounded like she got a lot out of talking it out with her group, which suggests to me that the people in it were either pretty functional or at least pretty good at being functional for the purposes of the group.

Group therapy: if it sucks, at least you can be taken out of your own inner world for a while by the distraction of what a dipshit everyone else is. Sort of like this Onion article. I've never done group therapy but I think it might be helpful. Ideally in the part of town that isn't the cottage industry of methlabs.

... uh oh.

oh?

yeah this

shit

in september i'm starting an 8-week, cbt-based group therapy program (more goal-oriented than traditional group therapy, so probably not as much aimless whining). my insurance is paying for it, so it couldn't hurt to give it a shot.

but my depression has been okay lately. it's a cliche but the california sun has been good for me.

whatever it takes, good luck with it jody

and if they don't work out doc robert is still on the case jody HE GOT YOU
http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0819/study-touts-horse-tranquilizer-ketamine-magic-antidepressant/

mine is employment-based, with the revelation that the temp gig i've been in for 3+ weeks might not last 4.

i was laid off for a couple months this year, i dont think i got depressed but i had plenty of panic attacks. i manufacture blind optimism but that was running out gradually. not sure therapy would help for a circumstance-based thing like that but i don't know much about that type of thing tbh.

are you with a temp agency or freelance? prospects?

I'm with several. The irritation is that this is the 2nd gig this summer that abruptly ended.

Life may be pointless but that doesn't mean it's meaningless.

I did join a gym today, so maybe that will help.

Kingfish I feel you man. I'm in the same boat atm and it's awful. I don't even have any temp agency prospects right now. Debating taking my MA off my resume and just applying for some retail jobs because fuck I need to do SOMETHING.

re, employment-based depressions: i am with a temp agency. several, actually. they give me no work. at the same time, i have bills, which accumulate. perhaps you see the way in which these two factors contribute to my ever increasing anxiety, depression, negative ideation, etc. i compensate by means of avoidance, but this has proved surprisingly unsuccessful. which leaves, ummm, the precipice? always the precipice. yikes...

I mean Kingfish, you know how many pictures/anecdotes I post on FB and here of my freakin' dog? Don't get me wrong, he's totally the best, but part of the reason I seem so Benson obsessed is because I spend more time with him than with any humans! If I didn't force myself to like shower and get dressed every day I'd probably just be in bed 24/7. At least the couch isn't technically the bed. UGH.

Oh I heard something fantastic from a temp agency recently. They have so many applicants that they're only dealing with ppl who have direct admin experience during the last 6 mo. I've been unemployed for 4 and my job before that was not an administrative position so . . . they are not considering me at all right now despite the nearly TEN YEARS of admin experience I have under my belt.

but we all love your dog!

My idea was just to expand the pool of recruiters to call, and then hit them up each 1x a week, and check their sites, etc etc etc

They have so many applicants that they're only dealing with ppl who have direct admin experience during the last 6 mo. I've been unemployed for 4 and my job before that was not an administrative position so . . . they are not considering me at all right now despite the nearly TEN YEARS of admin experience I have under my belt.

familiar w this pattern

But don't make a mistake; i still have massive, MASSIVE issues with anger and resentment over this stuff. Also deals with my level of education & experience vs the gigs available.

Since I have no clear target, I turn this shit inward.

If I didn't force myself to like shower and get dressed every day I'd probably just be in bed 24/7

I have a big family get together at weekend that i was supposed to go to. I've told them i don't want to and now they're disappoint.
I don't want to be surrounded by people who are all jolly and asking me "how's it going" and "have i found work yet, it's all i ever seem to get asked and i'm sick of saying "fine" and "oh nothing yet, but something will pop up".

you can derail the conversation though onto topics you'd prefer to talk about. that's fun sometimes.

Last day was today. Feeling kinda okay. Landlady understood when I told her about it and how i'd only be able to pay 1/2 the rent on time. It helped that I fixed her & her husband's wireless printer. They then invited me back down for dinner tonight.

Already have an appt with a recruiter tomorrow morn. Since what you think determines what you feel, I really did do the repeated affirmation/mantra thing for a little while, and it helps.

ENBB, note that if I had a pug, I be fuckin' wandering around town with him peaking out of my backpack like he was guiding my Jedi training or some shit.

But that's just me.

OMG gonna see if he'll go in a backpack right now. Will report back.
.

ENBB, note that if I had a pug, I be fuckin' wandering around town with him peaking out of my backpack like he was guiding my Jedi training or some shit.

This might be possible with some practice but I think he was a little freaked out first time in:

http://i38.tinypic.com/28a599g.jpg

Hahah aw.

You should have brought him like that to the Boston FAP.

Aw man. If he starts to like it I'm probably just gonna take him everywhere like that tbh.

benson definitely more terrestrial than marsupial imo

transfixed by pugs whenever i see them

they're just not into being like any other dogs

YES! STRONG IS THE DARK SIDE, CONTROL YOU IT WILL!

I WOULD be wandering around town, rather

LOL, he looks like he's thinking "this is so freaking HUMILIATING, ruff >:| "

<3

:D I like how he looks like he's hanging on by the straps. TBH when I first got him in there he was so shocked looking that it was adorable but started wriggling around soon and it was hard to get a good pic.

<3, he's got a 'price of love' look on his face.

Do you tell your partner how deep your depression is? I want to but can't. He knows I am depressed but not to what extent. The drugs are not effective enough (if at all). Anxiety and very dark cloud still persist. Shld get appoint in september. Tempted to see psychoanalyst tbh. Ooooh the irony.

Tbh I even feel guilt, as there is noreason to be depressed.

why can't you?

Like I said, guilt. But also, I don't think I want him to know. It would just freak him out. (-> see how having a partner doesn't save you from depression. Used to hope that but realized I was wrong.)

That guilt you're feeling is a symptom of the depression. The wonderful thing about the drugs I'm on is not that they get rid of my depression--I still go into bad phases, like the very bad one that I was in for the last few days--but I don't feel like the scum of the earth anymore when I'm depressed.

yeah that. and I feel less caught up in/distracted by my emotions (in most cases).

I wanted to say that the guilt is part of me. But that isn't right. Guess you're right.

Also, man, I have really fucked up sleeping patterns. Awake at 4:30. Then again had a two day migraine attack.

Do you know what triggered it?

Oh yes. No way I can solve it, other than reprogramming myself. Lol. Second time this hit me for the exact same reason.

my doctor's advice for insomnia is just not to fight it and roll with it. if you wake up at 4:30, go walk up a hill and watch the sunrise. or make a really luxurious breakfast. and if you can't sleep at 2 am read some long, distracting NYT articles or get some tedious work done, like balance yr checkbook. seems to work for me, it gives me a huge mental energy boost the next day when i do stuff like this so i can deal with the fucked up sleep pattern. i just went back to work (as a high school teacher) after a long summer of daily beach / tennis / cycling / camping / etc. now i am suddenly up until 2 am every night, getting up at 7:30 every day, not doing anything fun / physical / outdoorsy except taking care of new dog. it's tough to stay positive with this type of thing going on - even a "typical" brain would have issues coping - but i think just staying aware of what's going on and reasoning it out helps a lot.

also here's an anecdote

my roommate is a 24 year old teacher who just finished his first year. he's been working at my school for a while as a coach so we're pretty tight. his mom had a stroke at the beginning of his first year which she recovered from but which also left her acutely depressed. his father has a gambling problem. the bank foreclosed on one of their two houses and is threatening the second because their mortgage. his sister is in her 9th year of an endless communications major which mom keeps shelling out for (including rent) and his brother and father just lost their jobs. so he's moving back home tomorrow because he figures that's close to $1000 he can give back to his parents, but he's real upset about the whole thing - it's been brewing all year since the stroke, and he also had to deal with some crazy shit where his teaching partner had a manic depressive episode that resulted in getting fired midyear (that was tough for the entire staff - as a charter school we're a bit of a high-pressure environment)

so anyway, i urged him at the midpoint of last year to use our medical benefits to see a therapist weekly. and lo and behold, it's been working for him, and now he's planning to bring his parents in with him because weekly family therapy is also covered under our plan. and he has a plan for including his mom in his training routine (he's a triathlete) to get her outside and doing stuff instead of watching TV and crying, and he's going to try to figure out something for dad too.

in short, he's a superhero, because he's doing everything humanly possible to get help and support (emotional and material) for himself and his family.

and last night, he was really unhappy, and i asked him what was wrong, and he said "well, i had to admit to my mom i was seeing a therapist when i asked her to come with me".

so yeah, guilt runs deep, even in the best people, but feeling guilty about telling your partner about your problems makes about as much sense.

also, i understand your fear. my marriage imploded because my ex-wife and i weren't able to talk through our mutual problems with depression. and her interpretation of events is still "that i couldn't deal with her depression". but the truth is that she refused to get help, and i had to leave, because it wasn't healthy for me to be taking sole responsibility for our relationship. one person can't be doing all the work. so sharing the problem is OK, but only if you do it with a plan to get help, and you include your partner in that plan, and show respect for their efforts. if they don't want to help, then you have to wonder what kind of "loved one" they really are ...

and yeah, now i've been seeing a really amazing girl for a year, and i've done all sorts of crazy stuff i've wanted to do my whole life but i've always been scared to, and we started things out by communicating really clearly and frankly about my problems, and what i'm doing to address them and how she can support me in that effort, and how i can respect her support by in turn supporting her.

so i say go ahead and tell your partner.

sorry to get all soapbox-y on you, just try to stay positive, remember that if someone you knew wanted to tell their partner something but felt like they couldn't they'd feel pretty depressed, remember that you **can** reprogram your brain but that you should also accept your own differences, and good luck sorting it out

Fucked up sleeping patterns can become the egg to depression's chicken, if that makes sense. Try to get regular sleep, it's really essential. Back in January, I got on a vicious cycle of insomnia due to bad dreams (night time flashbacks) leading to daytime exhaustion which led to more flashbacks and a fear of sleeping due to nightmares, etc. I know that was just me, but I imagine I'm not completely alone in that.

Oh, exercise is what dragged me out of the pattern -- combination yoga and cardio.

(xposts w/ moonship)

moonship otm, tho

Depression fucking terrifies me, quite honestly. And I deal with PTSD symptoms pretty much daily.

pretty sure this section of my biography will be titled "in which: rent money becomes booze"

"so the rent became whiskey / and then my life became risky" - silver jews

moonship, you're so otm. thanks for all the advice. :-)

there is noreason to be depressed

I wish there was a way that it could be made clearer that this absolutely doesn't matter. Depression isn't necessarily circumstantial (though circumstances can exacerbate or prolong it, obviously). It's the self-reflexive version of "pull yourself together", that it shouldn't be there and you can just look at your shit and say "there's no reason for this". It's there in and of itself, regardless of circumstances.

Nath, I should qualify this as a general observation and absolutely not a criticism of your feelings - I've beaten myself up about it often enough to know that it's a perfectly normal reaction, to try and justify stuff to yourself, and self-blame is the easiest trap in the world to fall into when you aren't seeing straight.

Right. A good percentage of depression is caused by bad brain chemistry.

The thing is, I look from the outside and see the depression. I also realize, even from an outside view, I am really not seeing straight. I see all the symptoms and feel like a walking cliche (half-jokingly): tiredness, disinterest, guilt, playing with suicidal thoughts,... Most of all I just want to sleep and sleep and sleep. I feel like I am trapped somehow. The crux is that this can't be completely helped, it is in my nature. But of course not to this degree. I realize this is not healthy at all.

I literally walk into a room and am convinced I am the stupidest person.

Ailsa, thank you. I agree but then I look at my life and still think I shouldn't be feeling this way. I perfectly nderstand when it's someone else, just not for me. I need a psychoanalyst cause I know where it comes from (in part). lol

Also, after rereading this thread I realize I've been walking around with this "baggage" for a VERY long time. Urgh.

The crux is that this can't be completely helped

But it can be dealt with. Please do (I think you know this).

I will. Promise.

Nathalie, psychoanalysis takes a long time and can be very expensive. There's also the danger of running into someone with quack theories and/or someone on a power trip, so be very careful. (If they start talking about repressed memories, RUN.)

(And when I say run, I mean run--walk out in the middle of the session if you have to. It is trivially easy to make people believe false memories. )

Oh, and please keep us in touch with your progress.

love you, nath! see someone. get help. talk to people. there are people who can help.

Argh, Nath, I tried to webmail you earlier but it didn't work as I was on the bus and my iPhone didn't want to play ball.

You know that I've had a mixed experience with drugs and with therapy. If drugs work for you, that's great. But if they don't - or if they initially help, and then stop working, it's a really bad idea to just stay on them and not try something else. If, six months down the line, you feel as bad as you did before (or worse - because some drugs, especially SSRIs can make people feel worse, long term) then try something else.

I do kind of have a suggestion, based on my own recent experiences, though! I was recently put on beta blockers for my migraines - it is early days, but I have noticed a side effect of massive reductions of anxiety - especially social anxiety.

I mean, I went to a FAP (without drinking) for the first time in a couple of years and stayed for a few hours and it was fine! Under normal circumstances, I would be convinced everyone HAAAATES me, or convinced that no one wants me around, or just feel awkward (your description of feeling "the stupidest person in the room" really chimes with me - though, with me, it was more like "I'm the ugliest person in the room, the the most useless person in the room, the least likeable person in this room" and either have to leave, or more likely just not have got there in the first place without drinking huge amounts first. But it sounds like the same voice.) This, I think is anxiety as much as it is depression.

(At least, I suspect it may be, in mine own circumstances. I'm fine if I have something to do in the situation, but if I'm just there to be social, I feel incapable. This makes me feel isolated. Feeling isolated makes me feel depressed and suicidal and want to sleep all the time.)

Like I said, I was put on beta blockers for migraines (which I know you get as well) but so far they have mainly helped with the anxiety, and because the anxiety has lifted, I'm less depressed. I don't know if this is permanent, or if it's a temporary side effect that will wear off, but it's really helped. It might be something worth mentioning to your doctor, to see if you can switch because I know that you have mentioned both migraines and panic attacks/anxiety before - and this stuff does seem to help with both of those things.

Hope that things improve for you.

Reading this thread as a lurker has been really helping me in the "u r not alone" sweepstakes. I just went off SSRIs for the first time in about 7 years, for no other reason than I'm taking other medications right now, for blood pressure and other things, and wanted to reduce my pharmacopeia by one. It's been a hell of an adjustment and I've been having a really tough time coping. Seems the only things I feel strongly right now are anxiety and anger. :(

OMG, coming off SSRIs was one of the hardest things I've ever done. Reduction and spacing them out is urgent and key. But yeah. Even after the withdrawal wears off, there's this "OMG, EMOTIONS!!! and they're not very nice ones!" like you've been sitting in one position too long and the pins and needles are almost unbearable. But that's what it is. Your brain readjusting. Really hope that things go OK for you, Phil.

Ugh. I did step down, but my last week, and the first full week without them, were fucking miserable. It felt like the worst hangover ever x1,000, 24 hours a day.

Yeah, it's possible to get too used to feeling normal.

No, no, that way lies PAIN. Seriously! I tried about 3 or 4 times to get off them that way, and within a week or two I'd have stabbed my grandmother to go back on them. Reduce, reduce, reduce. Go down 10 mg at a time and spend at least a week or two at each lower level. Once you're on 10mg, start spacing them out longer and longer, like take 2 pills every 3 days, then space them longer and longer. It took me two months to get off them, you have to train your brain to function without them, and to let your brain adjust and make serotonin for itself. It made a lot more sense to me after I read the brain chemistry of the stuff, why it's so hard to come off. Cold turkey is so not a good idea!

x-post

Or just tell your doctor that you want to get off of them (which you should be doing anyway) and have him/her develop a taper-off plan. (Incidently, I took Paxil for a year in the early Nineties, stopped cold turkey, and had none of the symptoms that you are mentioning.)

Brains & drugs: one size does not fit all. Your mileage may vary.

Karen, I am too afraid of betablockers tbh. :-(

Scott, love you, dude. :-)

Betablockers are good, I had them for anxiety a few years ago, and they really helped. Or I should say they were good *for me*, since experiences can obviously vary.

i dunno - i feel like if you feel really numb and are not having emotions while on SSRIs then you are either on the wrong meds or taking too much.

Has anyone here had any experiences with the diabolical 'serotonin syndrome?'

I resumed taking Zoloft last month, after about a year of being off SSRIs, & my pcp advised me to start w/ a slightly higher dosage than I had taken the last time I acclimated to it. On the third or fourth day, I started to feel a bit dizzy and nauseous. I assumed these were textbook side effects (while I hadn't had such a reaction before, I was a bit hung over that day tbh), so I decided to take a nap. I woke up around two hours later from a fever dream, completely drenched in sweat & mess of chills & involuntary leg movements. I was also experiencing delirium to some degree. Thankfully I was able to quickly contact my sister, a licensed pharmacist - she knew immediately what was happening & talked me through it. I was literally getting ready to leave for the emergency room when it started to subside. The effects diminished considerably in the short-term, but it took over 24 hours to them to completely subside.

I cut back my dosage to the same amount I was on when I originally started taking Zoloft & have been fine since, so I'm hoping it was just a freak occurrence. Still it was actually a pretty terrifying thing to undergo, even if only briefly. Would not recommend..

god, that's scary! I haven't experienced that - though I was briefly on Zoloft years ago and it didn't really work for me - for whatever reason, it just made me really angry. I don't really get any weird side effects w/Paxil.

that is odd - Zoloft makes me decidedly not angry (or generally consumed by self-loathing etc.) which means it is doing the trick, I suppose (when it is not to kill me!).

Pillbox: You are lucky to be alive. Very lucky. What other medications do you take? Any herbal medications ?

No experience with serotonin syndrome, but I've read the warnings. That is serious fucking business; I'm glad you got medical attention right away.

Weirdest side effects I've had other than the boring ones like constantly fluctuating weight, tiredness, etc have been the "brain shocks" and others from Lexapro withdrawal. Even while tapering the dosage, I got the zaps and this weird disconnected feeling that's hard to describe (and that I seriously hope I never have to deal with again, not fun).

Prozac is doing OK for me right now, or it seems to be, anyway. I still can't really enjoy anything and have trouble leaving my apartment, but at least I'm not locking myself in the employee bathroom and sobbing for hours at work. Little steps, and all that shit.

I'm really, really happy to hear that, TT.

is there a difference between which SSRIs are generally prescribed for men vs. women? For some reason, I think that Lexapro tends to be prescribed more often to men because it has less severe sexual side effects.

man, fuck SSRIs. i've been managing my depression with them for 12 years now and i've tried going off to no avail for half of that time, never lasted more than six months

scariest part is potentially long-term sexual side effects, ie PE when i'm off and ED when i'm on

current workaround is a maintenance dose of 5-10 mg of paxil (works for me), lots of omega-3 oils (ocean fish and/or legumes everyday), replacing carbs with fresh vegetables, daily exercise, lots of time in the outdoors, mentoring my younger relatives and colleagues, etc

also i've been doing CBT for 12 years, maybe its a natural fit for me because i teach high school and we basically use CBT to manage and motivate our students

our sessions are mostly focused around career and personal goal-setting these days rather than managing anxiety attacks, though i still get those weekly, working on turning that energy into positive motivation

i'm also using herbs but with the awareness that they just complement - not replace - all those other strategies and resources and that i really needed good meds for that initial intervention

so yeah there's a way out of SSRIs but like any other massive lifestyle change it's definitely best approached real gradual and one step at a time

I've gone off ssris three times in the past five years but I always end up back on. Last time was just a few months ago...It wasn't too bad going off them, but then after a couple months, I gave up. I could make it through the day okay without 'em, but I just found myself revisiting old (extremely negative) thought patterns and generally I was mired in misery much of the time. So fuck it.

I find it difficult to accept that I might be on them for the rest of my life, though.

way way xp to Christine

Yeah, the way my sister described it, serotonin syndrome basically has a snowball effect to the degree that a slight imbalance can escalate to such a degree that one could be particularly susceptible to a stroke or cardiac arrest. Thankfully, the effect usually stops short of such extremes, but it is esp. tricky b/c there isn't really a way to correlate the ratio b/w overdose & consequence. In my case, like I said, I was just about to call for a ride to the ER when it scaled back considerably & my heart rate & blood pressure responded in kind. I guess maybe I should keep some kind of sedative at hand, in case it happens again, tho the opinions I've gotten & my own research suggests that it is not something one might be esp. prone to - it is literally sort of a freak occurrence.

I will probably wean myself back off the SSRIs down the road a bit, anyway. I am prone to clinical depression, but I can often keep it in check w/ diet & exercise & other lifestyle factors. Bet every so often I find myself in a trench & just need something to grease the wheel, so to speak. Aside from the one (admittedly awful) incident, the Zoloft has actually helped me considerably when I've needed it.

To answer your question: I am also an ADD basket-case, so I take Adderall (tho I hadn't taken any on the day of the incident). I take Claritin fairly regularly for allergies. In terms of herbal supplements, I take one or two Ginkgo Biloba capsules daily & sometimes I drink a lot of Yerba Mate. Vitamins, minerals & such I try to get from food as much as possible. I drink more alcohol than I should & I occasionally smoke weed. Sorry if all this is TMI or whatever, but if you have any suggestions, I would certainly be interested to hear them. Right now, I am sort of depending on the Zoloft, but Christ I do not want to have any more experiences like ^

I had something really fucking weird happen one time when I was on Zoloft and ate maybe too many hash cookies and that started with a racing heart, shivering, legs twitching uncontrollably. Still, no THC on the wikipedia article for "serotonin syndrome", but, fuck. I thought I was dying and considered calling an ambulance and then I thought "well of course you're just being paranoid, duh, let's not make this any worse than it already is". Then I kept blacking out, like I'd know I'd been doing stuff because I'd be in a different place, but have no memory of the past two hours; repeat.

Anyhow I am probably just looking for something to blame for a moronic teenage overindulgence and attendant freakout, but, fuck.

(I have not really told anyone this before because it sounds so fucking dumb but I am kind of startled that it actually might have been potentially serious. I am OK though! And it probably wasn't that at all! Seeing as it is not a listed combination on the wikipedia and all!)

Man I hope this will not be the last post on this thread as I am sure to regret posting this in the morning, but...

Sounds like you have good reason to be concerned, despite the absence of THC in the Wiki article. No weed/hash paranoia I know of includes uncontrollable leg twitching and blackouts! you weren't drinking alcohol at the time?

Replying partly so you don't regret posting. ;)

imho sounds pretty hard to separate what happened from garden variety paranoia, i've had racing heart and shaking hands too

i had bad experiences whenever I'd miss my lexapro. i'd walk around with my head perfectly still because when i'd turn my head it felt like my brain was turning slower than my eyes and then when i'd stop my brain felt like it was still turning

if anybody's having similar issues i'd recommend just try switching to an equal dose of celexa instead of tapering off ... can't be any worse!

Also a hell of a lot cheaper since celexa has a generic. FWIW for the curious: the dosage on celexa is 2x the dosage of lexapro. (40 mg celexa = 20 mg lexapro)

as far as acceptance most of us don't regret our addiction to eyeglasses, eczema cream or supportive footwear and I just figure ssri's maybe are just a form of mental hygeine that we're starting to understand

well, it is a pretty basic chemical function that they serve.

I can't recommend strongly enough working with your doctor if you want to get off anti-depressants. There is no possible way to do it too slowly or gingerly, imo. Seriously, this shit goes best if you work with a sympathetic professional who knows what they're doing! This goes not just SSRIs but any mental health med. Getting off SSRIs was a like petting a pile of puppies compared to tapering off Lamictal. Dear God.

My doc was really nice about it, and even following her advice I still had a seizure from going off Lamictal the last week I was working on tapering off. Scary. But, ultimately, it worked out OK. I don't think I ever should have been put on Lamictal in the first place tbh.

I was ANGRY six months later when I went to a doctor for the flu or something like that. He saw in my records what meds I used to be on, and started just chastising me and telling me I was a bad and irresponsible person for "refusing to take my meds." When I hadn't talked to him 1x the whole time about the situation (the doctor I had been seeing for my mental health was at a free clinic, this dude was not). It was just so presumptuous and entitled. I just needed to complain to someone about that, sorry guys!

the bullshit is rooted in side-effects & social stigmas

xp

(couple xposts)

Racing heart and shaking hands, sure; leg twitching and blackouts, not so much, but ymmv.

I was on Celexa for a short time, no real problems with it*, although it had a reputation for leading to suicidal ideation/behaviour at the time.

*Except, when tapering off, I had a similar experience to moonship I called brain taffy, whereby my brain felt like it would occasionally stretch out in a weird kind of slo-mo.

Just a quick reply (I'm going to look up Pillbox's meds in Medscape sometime tonight). Will you all please stop acting as if SSRIs are just another bad habit to break rather than a medication that may be vital to your health? First off, SSRIs do not = antidepressants. Second off, if you feel better on them, barring any troublesome side effects, then stay on them, for heaven's sake. Don't get off of them just because of some misguided desire for A Drug Free Life.

Look, I'm sorry for that rant, but it's just something that's been building up for a while.

Oh, and Abbott, I started writing that reply before your recent post, so if I hurt you, I'm sorry.

Hahaha, no, not at all. It's not like you jumped to any fucked-up conclusions about me, plus also you are not my doctor.

I went off my meds because after four years of taking them & doing therapy both me & a doctor & my therapist all decided I did not need them at this point in my life. I'm comfortable w/my decision.

I totally think people should make whatever decision is best for them! And that they should make it with the help of professionals who know about the person & about the meds in question. I hope I did not make anyone feel like it's time to get off the anti-depressant train. I don't have an agenda except people having the best possible mental health! Which, if that means taking whatever helps, that's great that you found a helpful solution! Nothing to feel guilty about.

i usually wanted to stop because I hated the side effects - lethargy, weight gain, sex dysfunction, etc

but yeah, i've learned that means adjusting my dose and/or rotating my meds

That's a different thing that you're talking about--you made that decision on the advice of a professional. I've seen people get talked/talk themselves off their meds before, often with horrible results.

I have had a bad week and I feel so weird right now.

maybe I should smoke a cigarette. I have some and I have been good about not getting back into the habit when I do smoke the occasional cig.

maybe you should put on some music and see how many jumping jacks you can do

That shivering, twitching thing described upthread happened to me once when I was coming down off LSD (no antidepressants involved). I searched it up but it wasn't 100% conclusive what it was. It was very, very unpleasant and I had read enough about serotonin syndrome to assume this was what I'd managed to do to myself, which made it much, much worse. I don't know if it was shivering or some kind of tremor. Terrible shit.

"I have had a bad week and I feel so weird right now."

Hugs,dude. How do you feel weird?

Stopped smoking the day I took my first pill (sipralexa). I was so nauseous, I couldn't do anything but lie down. It's been great so far. Decided I had to quit cause my husband was going to as well. I have been smoking off and on for the last seven years. I still don't consider myself a smoker weirdly. But I never do the occasional cigarette anymore, cause I know by the end of the month I'm doing almost a pack. I miss it but otoh I am happy to be an ex-smoker.

Anyway, decided after the advice here, to do some sports. Although I hate running, I think I'm gonna give it another try. Or at least do some major walking.

My mom's been asking how things are. For the first time in my life I have decided not to tell her anything. So nothing about the pills. I told her several times before I had anxiety attacks and felt depressed, but she never took it really serioulsy. So why make her worry now? She's too far away (in Japan) and can't do much.

is there a difference between which SSRIs are generally prescribed for men vs. women? For some reason, I think that Lexapro tends to be prescribed more often to men because it has less severe sexual side effects.

female lexapro taker here. i kinda hate it, but it's worked better than anything else i've tried. i think my doctor only put me on it because that's what the drug rep happened to be pushing that month.

did i say i *kinda* hate it? i really hate it. i hate the side effects (mostly weight gain) and i hate how shitty i feel when i have to be without it for even a few days. more generally, i hate dealing with doctors and insurers and pharmacists and the whole stupid circus every month when i need a refill or whatever.

*camera 2, close up* THERE'S GOT TO BE A BETTER WAY!

Welcome to the world of chronic illnesses. At least you don't have to go through dialysis or chemotherapy.

My parents are medicated for the first time in their lives and it's doing a world of good, afaik. My mom has had depression/social anxiety issues to an extent for most of her adult life and my dad is an anxiety addict who has some obsessive-type habits.

I went on celexa at the end of last year when I finally admitted I was at the end of my rope. Still going to get into talk therapy "at some point," which actually seems the truth now and not some sort of excuse. Basically, having the chemical balance shift at the same time I was making huge life changes made me a lot more confident so it was a partial red herring that made me put off completing the mental health puzzle.

I've been fucking things up a little the last few weeks because I've gone back to dating after a year hiatus and celexa can cause... hell, is it called anorgasmia in men? I think it's called "retarded ejaculation" or somesuch. So I've been staggering pills at 36 hour intervals and it's starting to catch up to me, especially since I've been drinking a bit more.

Pre-SSRIs, if I was a touch hungover I would get a thought or a song stuck in my head and lay awake at 4am after the alcohol cleared my system and be unable to fall asleep. This kicked in again the other day, although thankfully not until 8AM.

I believe retarded ejaculation is a normal orgasm where the semen is retained by the body.

nah, that's retrograde

Yes, that was the word I was trying to think of.

Feel better now. Fixed my car with the assistance of a friend last night, have an interview tomorrow, might have another one lined up. Much of the weekend was taken over by stress & anxiety & feeling-shittyness from the stupid engine trouble, and whether I would be able to afford to or just fix the car in time to motor the 40 mins out to the interview tomorrow.

turns out I was able to, and my buddy stopped by to help me fix a spark plug I couldn't reach, and everything worked.

that's a good feeling! for me - it's like the small incidents like that come to symbolize a larger threat, a feeling of never being able to win or have control, etc. I had a similar thing happen a few months back when I had a problem with my toilet (which my ex was the one to fix when we were together), and i managed to figure out how to fix it, and after that i felt a lot less anxious about my life, the break up, etc.

BTW, I left my IPod's charging cord at home today (I'm at work, watching my patient pretend to eat), so my posting will be sporadic until later on tonight.

Ha. That's why I wound up buying 3 cords. one for the house, one for the auto, one for the desk.

So I've been staggering pills at 36 hour intervals and it's starting to catch up to me, especially since I've been drinking a bit more.

the pills are timed to release every 24 hours. let's say you are taking 30 mg a day and you try to cut down to 20 mg a day by increasing the interval to 36 hours all you're really doing is getting your normal dose for 24 hrs and then going unmedicated for 12 hours. i'd check with your doctor, you would probably be much better off just getting a pill cutter or a lower dosage.

all you're really doing is getting your normal dose for 24 hrs and then going unmedicated for 12 hours

doesn't take into account serum levels

A pill cutter won't work with an extended release pill, though.

ok so you guys are seriously saying stretching out the interval is a better idea than taking a lower dose?

up to a point yeah

well, i mean, get down to the lowest practical dose first

ok so you guys are seriously saying stretching out the interval is a better idea than taking a lower dose?

I'm not saying that. I just looked it up in Medscape--its peak plasma level only lasts 2-4 hours.

wait are we still talking abt lexapro

No, we're talking about Celexa now.

oh. are almost the same thing tho, lexapro is just the active isomer of celexa. wikipedia sez the half-life is 35 hours, which i'd think would be more relevant than peak plasma concentration, particularly as if you've been taking it for any length of time you have a plasma level that should make the peaks and valleys not really a thing if yr taking it every 36 hours.

but it's been a while since i've been on ssri's so someone who is would know more abt the subjective effects.

but I'm gonna be having sex for that 12 hours so I'm not going to care, right?

(kidding)

dude my problem with too high of a dose was that it took 12 hours to finish

I'm on Wellbutrin, which *increases* sexual desire, at least in women. The thing I've noticed with it is that I feel a little less sensation during sex but stronger orgasms at the end. (And I can move myself much longer along the way just by mental imagery than I used to.)

oh. are almost the same thing tho, lexapro is just the active isomer of celexa. wikipedia sez the half-life is 35 hours, which i'd think would be more relevant than peak plasma concentration, particularly as if you've been taking it for any length of time you have a plasma level that should make the peaks and valleys not really a thing if yr taking it every 36 hours.

It depends on how narrow the therapeutic range is. (I'm on lithium, which has a very, very narrow range, so I'm probably a little more conscious of this than you all are.)

dude my problem with too high of a dose was that it took 12 hours to finish

this is pretty much what I was talking about upthread

cognitive therapy all the way man

ok so you guys are seriously saying stretching out the interval is a better idea than taking a lower dose?

These questions require a doctor.

I'm on Wellbutrin, which *increases* sexual desire, at least in women.

i remember a doctor telling me that when i tried it briefly! i, erm, didn't notice any difference.

It doesn't have that effect on everyone.

These questions require a doctor.

I'm the only one out of all of the medical personnel that post to ILX that's bothered to post to this thread. And I'm the least qualified out of all of them.

And that's really too bad.

so i was on 50mg of lexapro before and i went down to 30 a couple months ago b/c of side effects. yesterday my new doctor pushed me back up to 40. why yes, i'd love to spend labor day weekend adjusting to a dosage increase!

the good news is: welcome back to my arsenal, xanax! i've missed you so.

got prescribed lexapro in like october (of 09 holy fuck) and was still finishing that bottle as of june. ran out sometime in july. considering refilling? cause i mean...it's cheaper than whiskey every night. i know this feeling. the whole "i hate my job, what am i doing with my life, i will drink it away every single night and lose track of the days" thing. done it before, and i recognize its resurgence. would rather not.

http://27.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l88syoSPcJ1qz6f9yo1_500.jpg

lucy, typical neurotypical.

The numbness in my brain that I'd been having for a couple of days has resolved itself into an odd light feeling and a tendency to ramble on with whatever's in my brain (online, too). I'm assuming that I'd be having a hypomanic episode if I wasn't on lithium.

Fifty days of Fluoxetine (20mg), how much better should I feel in your collective experiences? I don't feel as awful as I did, but I certainly don't feel "good" by any stretch.

I love that Peanuts cartoon.

IME antidepressants don't make me feel "good," they just make me *feel*, period. Like a normal person--ups and downs both.

Like, there is no shiny happy people moment. That's why I never understood when people objected to antidepressants as making one feel artificially up or whatever.

i think it just depends on the person and the medication/dosage ... i've posted about my experience already - that the dosage of Paxil i'm on just makes me feel what i imagine normal is like - being sad, but being able to distract yourself, rebound, etc.

I still feel pretty glum and lethargic, although not as bad as I did before I started taking them. I'm sleeping better, and I don't feel like I'm on the verge of upset constantly, which are both real upsides, but I was kinda naively hoping they would do a little more for me.

my recent emotional episodes have left me rather drained, but one good side effect is that i have had more free time. i wrote a poem of my feelings. i'd like to share it with you if you don't mind:

Dog days of summer
Winding down, winding down
I hear the ice cream truck
Making its last rounds

This twilight time
This transitional hour
More bitter than milk going sour

More tragic than a dying child
Depressinger than going out of style

I find myself at a crossroads
Staring at the dark ahead
But then I look at the light that surrounds me
And wish I could stay here instead.

i have been taking my mother's prozac (i'm staying at my parents' for the week), but i feel like the certainty i had when i was brainwashed was so much more comforting than the uncertainty i feel now.

Banaka, have you been diagnosed with depression in the past? Any other mental illness? Have you taken Prozac before? What kind of uncertainty do you feel?

Is it a good idea to just take it without a doctor prescribing it?

My anxiety has gone down. I still feel anxious, but in a normal way. That said, I feel like it's in a drawer waiting to pop out. lol.

Thing is, should I see a psychiatrist? Or a psychologist? Not sure. I definitely want to prolong my usage of meds.

Is it a good idea to just take it without a doctor prescribing it?

The thing that worries me about Banaka is that he seems to have something other than garden-variety clinical depression going on, and Prozac may do him more harm than good.

My anxiety has gone down. I still feel anxious, but in a normal way. That said, I feel like it's in a drawer waiting to pop out. lol.

Thing is, should I see a psychiatrist? Or a psychologist? Not sure. I definitely want to prolong my usage of meds.

A psychiatrist can prescribe meds, a psychologist can't. I forgot, are you just seeing a regular doctor for your anxiety?

Yes, which my friend doesn't like at all. He just prescribed me some light anti-anxiety meds. She thinks I should see a psychiatrist instead of a regular doctor (and therapist). Not sure the difference between a psychologist and psychiatrist (aside from the fact the latter can prescribe meds which the former can't do). Do psychiatrist do therapy? Any advice is hugely appreciated. :-(

I really can't help you there, I've been getting along with just a doctor until just recently--a psychiatrist comes to the county clinic I go to once a month or two now. She reviews my meds, listens to me talk a bit, and writes me some prescriptions. You'd be seeing yours more often.

In my experience, most psychiatrists don't do therapy and will refer you to a psychologist for the non-pharmaceutical aspects of treatment.

i know this feeling. the whole "i hate my job, what am i doing with my life, i will drink it away every single night and lose track of the days" thing. done it before, and i recognize its resurgence. would rather not.

― ITS YA BOY (zorn_bond.mp3), Saturday, September 4, 2010 2:26 AM (4 days ago) Bookmark

apparently since friday i have gone far enough down the rabbit hole that this already feels like a warning from SPOCK OF THE FUTURE

Seek help, for realz. Once you get good at recognizing the warning signs, you really need to act before things get worse worse worse and you can no longer act at all.

I mean duh you know this, but just trying to offer my internets encouragement or whatnot.

wait - are you getting drunk as a means of dealing with depression? Bad bad bad bad bad idea. I've been there. The depression doesn't go away, you just end up with depression + a drinking problem.

^^^^ ditto, self-medicating not a good idea.

Right. Alcohol is a depressant.

co-signed. the other thing alcohol does is really fuck up your decision making. had to force myself away during my bouts.

It really sucks that intelligent people with excellent taste in music are all suffering when there are plenty of useless douchebags I know who are perfectly comfortable with themselves :/.

stay strong to all who are posting here with heavy hearts and tense minds!

alcohol is a depressant fyi

― BIG HOOS is the coxsteen of that particular groop (BIG HOOS aka the steendriver), Sunday, January 18, 2009 7:38 AM (1 year ago) Bookmark

this motherfucker knows whats up

Fifty days of Fluoxetine (20mg), how much better should I feel in your collective experiences? I don't feel as awful as I did, but I certainly don't feel "good" by any stretch.

― get the fuck out of my mouth (boxedjoy), Monday, 6 September 2010 18:10 (3 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I take something similar (Sertraline, 100mg daily) and yeah, its p much 'stopped crying myself to sleep every night', motivated to do one or two things a day - not skipping up the hillside. Baby steps innit.

stay strong to all who are posting here with heavy hearts and tense minds!

Group hug! Group hug!

But seriously, I'm glad that we've established this nice little support group here on ILX. I know it's been helpful to me.

Lost another friend to this motherfucker last night.

Don't know how yet...grad school admins. only confirmed that she did it herself.

poof! and gone

fuck

damn, so sorry hadrian.

:( i'm sorry, man.

Oh, shit. Keep in touch with us, OK?

Thank you guys

Is there a more simultaneously unbelievable and perfectly logical act than suicide?

rephrase: It just struck me again, immediately upon hearing of her death, that of course she killed herself

"I can't believe it—"
"I saw it coming—"
"I can't believe it—"
"I saw it coming—"
"I can't believe it—"
"I saw it coming—"

&etc.

If it's not too painful for you right now, tell us a little more about her.

She was quiet and small and reserved, until she punched you a new eye-hole. She wrote about piloting airplanes and was always spectacularly dressed. I got to know her best through her writing, which I guess is a specific and maybe narrow way point of entry. But deep. She had been hospitalized for a month earlier this year.

Hospitalized for depression?

I'm really sorry that you and her loved ones have to go through this.

Yeah.

I can't even begin to imagine what parents go through with this shit. I'm a dad myself and just...it's gotta be bottomless.

Hey way to depress the depression thread!

You guys were just group hugging too.

Sorry all.

So now we group hug you.

Had finished a bottle. Was reading some girl's poems. Heard my ex's voice in my head say "she's better than you." Stalked to the kiitchecn to finish the vodka left tin the freezer.

is a lowdown shakin chill

is an achin old heart disease

manic depression is a frustrating mess.

hate this shit

feel like the bottom has been falling out of my brain bit by bit since I started college

oh man hadrian, hugz.

by the end of today i am determined to tidy up. considering my room has become a festering mess of non living for about a month and a half, this will be quite an achievement. must shower, get dressed and open the curtains first. this is terrible form for nearly 4pm, i know, but i am determined(ish)!

maybe a nap first.

thoughts to all itt

Hadrian, how are you holding up?

A Hoy Hoy: Don't try to do everything at once or you'll get discouraged. Clean yourself first, then take care of anything unsanitary or dangerous, then anything that's just messy. I was deep into Level III clutter most of the time I was lived in Fort Myers, and I'm emerging from Level I now.

ok. 2 points down on my 15 pt list (shower, dress), now on 3rd - collect and throw away rubbish. might as well ask now for the time i get to it, any good tips on hoovering behind objects you aren't going to be moving any time soon? p certain the huge collection of dust under my bed is having an adverse reaction to my health

well i'm not going to be around tomorrow or thursday as i'm going to house/babysit for my sis, so i'd like to come back to organisation and cleanliness - think it'll be helpful in sorting shit out and easier to keep that way. already past my first cup of tea into it tho.

If you can't get the vacuum to reach behind something large and immobile, get a dirty Tshirt or towel out of the laundry, wrap it around the brushy part of a broom, and use it to dust/sweep behind the thing.

ty ty :)

np! gl!

ok taking a break for a walk for some chinese food and some headache tablets. but ticked off 'throw out rubbish' and 'sort clothes' although that last one is a cheat as it was really just 'fold clothes and throw them in the bottom of the wardrobe'.

whatever works!

dunno why i am liveblogging this.

Whatever helps.

Ugh, I'm in the same place with organization- I've had an ankle-deep layer of styrofoam peanuts around my TV/computer desk for months now because they're too big for the vacuum cleaner, too small and numerous to be worth the effort picking up one at a time, and nobody but me (and once, a couple of maintenance guys to fix the washing machine- the highlight of my social calendar) has ever been inside my apartment since I moved in over a year ago so who gives a shit? Not to mention the unassembled bookshelf still in its box, teetering piles of books and CDs, unread email, etc. Things reached a head this weekend when I realized I'd been stepping around a huge cardboard box full of recyclable paper for almost 6 months because I hadn't been able to work up the enthusiasm to leave my apartment and haul it to the dumpster.

I've got an unassembled bookcase still in its box that was delivered in early January, whilst we still had snow and ice in the UK. And I've been stepping round a bag of laundry from last November - the last batch I did at the laundrette whilst my washing machine was broken.

Haven't vacuumed for a couple of months - though that's more because vacuuming brings on my asthma really badly.

I know it probably wasn't the intention, but a hoy hoy and telephone thing, you've brightened up my evening, thanks

there's research on the subject of how one's environment affects one's mood - but someone else has posted about this in other threads

I'm feeling pretty good now after doing it. Ok so i only did about 4 parts of my 15 pt list and the stuff 'organised' has meant that i now have just some towers of mess in designated areas, like my desk but at least i am focussed on the football and not 'omg this is a hell hole' for now :)

Oh man, that is an awesome list. I should start doing that shit.

Inspired by this thread, I washed the dishes at half time rather than just sitting on my arse and waiting on my other half to do it. This is Progress.

I now want to eat grapes and learn to play the ukelule (loads of my friends seem to be doing the latter, perhaps it is a sign).

really should water plant looking back. also wth at not being able to spell loaf.

my dad randomly decided to buy me one off of ebay and i'm all like uuuuuuuuuuuuummmmmmmmmmmmmm ok, i'll guess i'll eventually learn it? cheers?

loath = hi dere dr freud

xpost

There should be a What Does Your To Do List Look Like in September? thread

What's stopping you? Go ahead and start one, I promise to post (but not first - no way to take pic right now and it is bedtime).

I find that when I'm borderline, lists can be the only way to get anything done (if I'm sunk deep they don't help). Like a hoy hoy, mine often include "shower" and "get bread". I can manage w/o list items for those things atm but still need items for more obscure things like "put out rubbish". It is ridic how much the brain appreciates these little task/reward cycles (even if the reward is just a tick*).

*In fact, I can't think of a reward better than a tick. It takes no time and doesn't require a shopping trip. Any suggestions?

I've never been able to stick to a list. Anyway, I've suddenly (within the last few hours) plunged into a deep, guilt-ridden depression, and I don't know what's causing it. I can't stop myself from posting to ILX--I hope I don't end up hogging threads and/or posting anything I'll regret. My husband's been acting a bit strange these last few days--I'm hoping that it's his flu and the pain medication he's taking for his back, and not oncoming depression.

get grady to give you both an idea for a cheap date to knock you both out of it :)

keeping a relatively clean & organized room is really one of the keys to my own mental sanity

Do we have a thread somewhere on keys to mental sanity?

having a creative project -- one that i'm not too invested in emotionally or financially -- really helps for me. lately it's been cooking. i know i'm good at it, it has a time limit (it's done when it's done, not when my ego decides it's done), and the payoff is very quick.

another thing is keeping up with stuff outside my own head. it doesn't have to be the news; it can be rare mp3s from ubuweb or a movie from netflix. sometimes people who think i'm "smart" ask me how i know so much, and the real answer is that a lot of what i know i learned during periods of escapism. cuz face it, depression is boring.

Both of these are impossible for me when I'm depressed. The one thing that seems to work for me, other than waiting for it to go away, is going somewhere new and/or working for a new or infrequent patient. I'm bothered by the fact that I seem to need constant changes in scenery (or constant interaction with lots of people, which is impossible with my job) to stay sane.

I think the drugs are working. As a result I also have a clearer image of the bad period. the whole summer I didn't do much in the shop. Nor in the house. Now that I am feeling better, I am sorting stuff out like mad. I had five bags of garbage on monday. Woha. I hate cleaning - thank god we have a cleaner or my depression would consist of layers of dust - but I do love sorting things out. So I have been doing that. Even cleaning a little. lol. I also seem to do more in the shop as well. That said, my sinus has been acting up really badly, so I spend some days being miserable in bed. lol. Also been cooking al little more. When I was in my dark period, I didn't do much at all in the kitchen. :-(

I still need to set a date for therapy though. I think I'll go in October. My GP's daughter is a psychologist. Why not do it that way? They can check how I am doing.

keeping a relatively clean & organized room is really one of the keys to my own mental sanity

― J0rdan S., Wednesday, September 15, 2010 2:17 AM

^^^^

^ cosign

I think the drugs are working.

*Hugs Nathalie* I knew this would happen eventually.

I'm better than I was last night, thank goodness. My husband and mother-in-law have colds, and I think I might be catching it too--I've mistaken coming down with something with being depressed before.

xpost thanks. <3

Does this burst of energy dwindle? I have been quite energitic. Really been working a lot (certainly compared to the previous months).

Also called a psychologist (daughter of my GP). I am happy. But that's the thing: I feel as though I don't need therapy cause I have the pills. Then again I do feel the anxiety under the surface somehow.

it does, but in my experience it just kinda evens out. The next step is developing healthy ways of dealing with the anxiety and other problems when they inevitably get triggered. Good luck! :)

^^^cosign. And therapy can help sort out and dissipate the anxiety. I had a few sessions before the meds and I found it quite useful. Going to my first session since being on meds and am looking forward to it. I'd suggest aligning your needs with a psych's specialties. Each is more attuned to specific causes and effects of depression.

http://projects.propublica.org/docdollars/

OK, was going to post a link to my doc throughout high school (lots and lots and lots of drugs) and "fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu-" or something else pithy and clever before realizing a) that's really kind of a bad idea and b) BBcode takes a shit and dies when it encounters urls that contain square brackets. Just suffice to say that the numbers were very high, and that's just for Q1 2010 (Eli Lilly), Q3-4 2009 (Pfizer- oh man, Pfizer) and Q1-Q2 (AstraZeneca). Admittedly, AstraZeneca wasn't too bad- a $200 speaking fee- but this is just for three drug companies.

I decided today that this winter, as a therapeutic measure ("make a movie to solve a problem," my favorite college teacher used to say), I'm going to make a short documentary about the nature of depression and the differing models that exist. Any suggestions for books/movies/articles I should read? I've already got "Manufacturing Depression" on my list. Also if you happen to know of any particularly eloquent experts on the subject who live in Utah, plz to refer.

I'm sure you have "The Noonday Demon" on your list if you've not already read it? Andrew Solomon.

I just started thinking about this 8 hours ago, so I've got no list yet. So thank you.

'an unquiet mind' by kay redfield jamison, perhaps

she's bipolar, though, so just ignore the other half

So I left work tonight, fully intending to meet my wife at home and go out somewhere for dinner. Instead, I got so agitated and upset and depressed on the drive home that, by the time she got home, I didn't want to go anywhere at all. I made myself a peanut butter sandwich and got a little dish of pineapple. I sat at the table, ate two bites of the sandwich, and stared at the pineapple for about 15 minutes. I ended up eating neither. I'm spending my Friday night folding laundry and trying to find reasons to stay awake. Maybe I need to go back on SSRIs.

what happened on the drive? or was it just random?

there's nothing wrong with going to bed early sometimes tbh

En I See Kay - I know that this book talks about all kinds of mental illness, not just depression but it has a really good point about the changing view of mental illness as a psychological model to a chemical model and how treatment has changed (not always for the better) - I am starting to feel like a bit of a shill for it, but Robert Whitaker - Anatomy of an Epidemic.

Phil D - I know you don't like me, and generally think of me as a lunatic, so take this advice with whatever tons of salt you feel necessary - BUT - the thing to remember is that all human beings, regardless of whether they are depressed or "normal" or on medication or not, have bad days and better days. It takes a certain kind of mind to take a bad day and ruminate on it and turn it into conclusive proof that life isn't worth living and one is just a bad/unlucky/terrible person. (i.e. the kind of mind that depressed people often have.) One thing I find helpful is to remember that being on SSRIs was no insurance against having bad moods or bad days. It's very easy for me, with hindsight, to look at certain periods of my life and say "but I was so much happier then!" but I can go back in my diary and look - especially at periods when I was on SSRIs, and it wasn't a total rosegarden.

I think it's really important to learn how to accept that you are human, and give yourself permission to have all kinds of moods, including bad ones. Sometimes it's something that happened (a bad commute home) sometimes it's nothing but the pressure to *have* to be happy that can send you over the edge. That you can get into one of those terrible moods where you don't want to do anything, and it's important to be able to say "you know what? I'm in a bad mood. I give myself permission to spend tonight wallowing over peanut butter and folding laundry. Tomorrow is another day." And start again.

I've had pretty much the worst few days in a long time, mentally. At least I've recently discovered there's a genuine medical reason I'm in pretty much constant pain for two weeks out of every month. But that doesn't stop the short temperedness and the just plain bad moods. I made the mistake of trying to go to the pub with people from work last night, and that was just an exercise in alienation and social anxiety so I thought "I don't have to do this" and came home and thought I'd watch a film to cheer me up. So I watched Pi, which is a great film but fuck, it is not something you should be watching in that kind of state. I cried myself to sleep, had nightmares and woke up feeling borderline suicidal and wondering if I should try self trepanation. It took a huge wrench to not fall into that abyss. Got up, exercised, took a walk around my neighbourhood and my favourite cafes and shops, planned my next creative project. Remembering the lifestyle things that keep depression at bay. I hope it's passing; I go on.

Anyway, that's besides the point. Give yourself permission to fail; pick yourself up afterwards, go on. Rinse, repeat.

phil d., i hope you're feeling better. n/i/c/k, good luck with the film.

http://www.bristol.indymedia.org.uk/article/690010

Didn't know that movie existed before I was googling for a Hillman ref. Wd definitely be worth seeing if you cd, and definitely worth reading any of James Hillman's work on depression.

Phil D - I know you don't like me, and generally think of me as a lunatic

Neither of these things is true btw, I only know you as a name on the intertubez! Not in a position to like, dislike or otherwise. We clearly disagree about many things, we may quite likely agree on any number of other things. And I do appreciate the advice. Last night was just . . . bad. Really bad. It felt like my brain had just entirely broken, like I could have sat and stared at that sandwich and that bowl of pineapple all night without moving, speaking or doing anything else. Had I not decided to fold laundry, I might very well still be sitting there.

Yeah - what Kate says about giving yourself permission to have a bad day is really important. Last night I was gonna go to a monthly dance party that is usually fun and cheers me up, but I was just not feeling it. So I didn't go.

i have a question about an apparent effect of depression a friend of mine has - she has v little in the way of what she called the self-reporting of her body, in both the expected way of getting no pleasure from things that it seems are in an objective way 'good' (cognitive understanding not passing on to experience), but also the less expected way of never feeling hungry or thirsty, little acknowledgement of temperature etc. so i guess the question is just, is this a 'thing'?

is she on medication? like, is this a potential side-effect of medication? I definitely have a minor version of this.

Numbness to stuff both physical and emotional is a depression thing, yes!

totally can be a side effect of medication. i had to make some dosage adjustments a while back cuz i felt emotionally/creatively flatlined on the high dose i was taking. i'm better now.

unrelated: one thing i'd like to learn to deal with better is disappointment toward other people and situations. i can't make anyone else not be a shit, but i wish i could change the way i react to someone i used to like turning out to be a shit. it depresses me that it occupies my thoughts at all.

^^ this!

I think cognitive behavior therapy has been shown effective for that, but I don't have any first hand experience. Seems like the kind of thing medication in and of itself will not fix.

"behavioral", not "behavior", maybe? Goes by CBT for sure.

cbt comes up short when addressing a lot of the real life external-to-self things. it teaches you to turn negative thoughts into positive ones but it doesn't show you what to do when those positives may not exist.

(xp i've taken a cbt course.)

xposts yeah, she's on medication (venalfaxine), although the bad part there is that it's the third thing she's been tried on without much success. it's a pretty tough balance because before medication she felt terrible both emotionally and physically virtually all of the time, and now she feels pretty neutral all of the time, although in the former state she still managed to get things done and in the present state she's now working on a six month dissertation extension because she just hasn't been able to get anything out. hm. well she can at least be satisfied that it is indeed a 'thing', and hopefully bring up more medication modifications in her next doctor's visit.

It's not just a "thing" it's got a name, anhedonia. It is one of the principle symptoms of depression.

It being also one of the common side effects of anti-depressants, is something I find completely weird. It seems to me a poor medication that duplicates symptoms of exactly the same illness it purports to treat.

As I was looking for information on anhedonia as a symptom of depression (doctors sometimes use other related terms such as "flat affect": not displaying any emotions) I found some really useful factsheets from MIND. This is about the symptoms of depression:

http://www.mind.org.uk/help/diagnoses_and_conditions/depression#symptoms

And this one is about the synergetic effects of food and mood, something I always, *always* forget, when I get those terrible, out of nowhere "headache depression" type moods. For me, they're sometimes caused by blood sugar spike and troughs - I was at a birthday party on Friday afternoon and stuck a whole bunch of highly processed highly sugared birthday cake down my gob. Combine that with physical pain and a trigger and bang - filthy headache depression seemingly coming out of nowhere.

http://www.mind.org.uk/foodandmood/food_and_mood-the_mind_guide

(Phil, I just thought there might be something in there you'd find helpful, since environmental things can cause those out-of-nowhere depressions.)

And having read that second link a little closer, yeah, yeah, I know the idea of food-based treatment type stuff has got a lot of bad press on account of irresponsible quacks like Gillian McKeith but that doesn't mean that there aren't necessarily some genuine effects you can have from certain foods or the lack of them.

thanks k. i knew about anhedonia but not that it was associated with the kind of strictly physical things i was talking about (she actually gets headaches a lot too, ranging from the tolerable to the crippling 24-hour migraine), although it does make intuitive sense.

Antidepressants cured my anhedonia.

On another note, anyone here tend to mistake the symptoms of coming down with something with a bout of depression? It happens to me all the time, and it just happened to me a few days ago (I'm recovering from the cold or whatever it was now).

just sort of feel like if all i have to look foward to is working my shitty job or being on the dole, being lonely, gormless, boring and unattractive, getting drunk and consuming garbage media... then i'm already dead right? what's the fucking point? when do i actually get to feel like a fucking human being in my pathetic life?

Have you talked to a therapist yet?

lol i just spent ten weeks in therapy and it felt good at the time but any benefit seems to have just evaporated.

it's not like i'm nihilistic or i think life per se is shit... i just wish i was somebody else. somebody who had something to contribute, somebody other people actually liked, somebody with a future.

i think life can be beautiful and amazing, there are times in my past when i was so happy and optimistic. but i can't even think how i would ever feel like that again.

It's a vicious cycle--you feel like shit because of depression, so your life rots away, which makes you feel even more like shit. Are you still following your therapist's suggestions for improving your life?

This will help maybe not at all, but: IT WILL PASS. Everything passes, included the horrible bleak times. Just hang in there as best you can. Be gentle with yourself. You've already contributed and continue too contribute. You are liked, you have a future, a meaningful one. Hang in.

there are various ways of thinking more rationally about things, not being too worked up. but this doesn't really help when my depression is very stoic and british. "oh well. i'm shit, my life's shit... may as well just get on with things." i dunno if it's depression or just realism. i DON'T have anything to look forward to, and i'm a bit of a joke, end of.

this is ok as some sort of mantra, but it doesn't ring true or add up in a society where most people are taking more than they contribute and there really isn't any future for most people.

x-post

i think life can be beautiful and amazing, there are times in my past when i was so happy and optimistic. but i can't even think how i would ever feel like that again.

This is a pretty good alternate way to say the thread title, actually. The thing is, when you feel this fucked up and lousy, it's hard to remember how feeling good works. It's like if you had the flu for three weeks – you just kind of lose touch of a direct connection to how feeling hungry and energetic feels. That doesn't mean you are no longer capable of experiencing it, it's just too far away from your current experience to feel like a real possibility. But it is a real possibility. Someday you will feel less unhappy. I know it's hard to keep track of that or believe in it sometimes. This is the reason why I like when Charles Schulz said he takes his despair one day at a time.

xp

Maybe for most people life is more shitty overall than it is good overall. I believe that. I also think it is the best idea to stick around anyway. How I got there, I don't know. I think the other option (death) leads to more net shittiness, basically.

yeah... i dunno. just feeling low this weekend, thanks for the responses.

you need to come up with more invented demographic groups for ilx to analyse

hahaha ^^^ actually cheered me up

srsly tho

i've been on the look out for SSB signifiers but inner london is thin on the ground with SSBs (the city excepted, maybe)

i've missed this, can i get a pointer?

ps max, i don't want to ignore thread premise etc, but don't know what to say that wouldn't sound trite. all the best.

"Hipster" as pejorative.

and the next few pages of that

max u gotta disparage yrself less

especially if you do it irl as a defensive strategy to pre-empt the expected criticisms of others

but in general you probably do yourself a disservice

hahaha ^^^ actually cheered me up

Right. Distracting yourself with something can really do wonders for a mild case of depression.

I don't know exactly how or when things snapped back into place, but I've been living without depression for over a year now. I've described what it was like to a friend, with the assurance that it isn't like that right now, but it seems so minor of an occurrence.

I used to expect to kill myself and/or others and spent my days waiting until I didn't have to do any of it any longer. Now I move through days interacting and accomplishing. All bare minimum, but real.

Hospitalizations, over-medications, therapy, employment, stopping treatment, making decisions on violence. Some combinations of success and failure leaving me ready to go, on the verge of getting it on as soon as I'm ready.

Ominous specters always over the horizon. Maybe something comes along and I go dark. I can't dwell on the possibility.

It's like a rain cloud that comes around every once in a while and envelopes you totally within it, you can't see out beyond it, you can't remember what it was like before it came. You have a really distorted perception of yourself too.

Yesterday I started full on crying like a big girl for no reason at work. Luckily no-one was around and I just let it out but damn, I thought I'd got past this (says the guy who has already told ilb that he cried on the train this week).

The random crying is just the worst. It feels like some sort of sadness seizure.

It's like a rain cloud that comes around every once in a while and envelopes you totally within it, you can't see out beyond it, you can't remember what it was like before it came. You have a really distorted perception of yourself too.

^^^

Acknowledging your depression can, in and of it self, be very depressing. For instance, when I'm dating, how long can I wait before disclosing that I have this often debilitating mental illness? Should I really even be dating when I'm perfectly aware of what I'll be putting someone through if things get serious?

I mean, I know that admitting and dealing with it head on is an important step, but I can't help but think that I'd be much less depressed if I didn't have depression to think about all the fucking time.

Well the one girl I am madly in love with will never get with me because she also knows that I'm mr. crazy baggage. Also that she's on another continent.

think you meant to post that under the acoleuthic login

there is a picture that proves im not an lj sockpuppet and yet people still dont believe!

Oh man, it's clear you're not LJ because you are posting in this thread, not starting some new thread with a little line break novella about how broke your heart is, and also a cricket loss doesn't factor into your depression.

Stay away from the Wengerball thread then :)

(tbf i've not gone as crazy on that thread as i could, waiting for the annual shawcrossing to explode.)

I am several years off medication. Wow, do I feel great. Licking depression can be done!!! Take matters into your own hands and GOOD LUCK!

is there sarcasm in that? i have lost my prescription again and working the whole week my doctors is open in a totally different fucking place means i've gone 2 weeks without any meds. and its things like just being text that my place to stay for the night has to bail on me but won't tell me why that is easing me back into stable mental health.

Could you maybe go to the emergency room and explain your situation? You may be able to get a few days worth of meds there. (I was once told that that was a last resort option.)

xp - that sounds very not-ok, like i think you can go a few days and still be fine, because they stay in your system for a while, but two weeks sounds risky. Like you're dealing with depression + withdrawal

sorry to hear that a hoy hoy? what is it that you're taking? like sarahel, I'm concerned about withdrawal, which I know can put you in places that feel unfamiliar, mentally :(.

hoping for the best for you, let us know if we can help, even if just by giving moral support.

tbf this happens to me with like every other prescription so i'm used to it now. I'm doing surprisingly well compared to when I went without it in the summer, when I had a full on mental breakdown. Now it has just been downgraded to the usual occasional panic attack. helps that my life is in a totally better place in almost every respect. if everything goes to plan, my doctor (or before she went on meternaty (sp?) leave, was thinking of lowering my dosage by about April with a look at withdrawal over the summer. But as she's not around and I'm hopefully moving soon, I'll guess i'll have to discuss it with another doctor. i'm taking http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sertraline and as thats the first time i've read its wiki, it explains a lot.

also you guys are awesome, fyi.

If you live in the US (I realize many of you don't) and go to the emergency room, you will not see a doctor or even get emergency meds, you'll probably end up staying the night in the emergency room with the bright lights and nurses and then they will commit you, you have no say in that.

I don't but yeah, I've seen One Flew Over The Cuckoos Nest enough times to be freaked out by the possibilities of opening up to the wrong people.

after years of being all wtf, it's strange to realize that i now really do have good reasons to be depressed

"brain not wired quite right" is all the reason one needs imo

If you live in the US (I realize many of you don't) and go to the emergency room, you will not see a doctor or even get emergency meds, you'll probably end up staying the night in the emergency room with the bright lights and nurses and then they will commit you, you have no say in that.

― university of, drunk off your butt, etc. (u s steel), Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:38 AM (11 hours ago) Bookmark

truth bomb. I have really good insurance but the one time I had my major panic attack that I thought was a heart attack at the time, the hospital shrink started asking me questions that made me realize they were considering whether to rule out that option, so at that moment I answered very carefully.

gave me a xanax and sent me on my way tho luckily

Pretty depressed these days, pretty lonely and bitter. The best times of my life are behind me, and while I've been good at forgetting the past, cos it doesnt exists, it still upsets me somehow. Now there's like a big hole of pointless years. I suppose that shouldnt matter either tho.

The idea of even getting together w friends in a room and drinking and having fun makes me nervous. Mostly really nervous and manic around female friends, i think my sex drive is out of whack. Kinda think it always has been. Just dont have the social tools to hook up with any ladies. Feel pretty defeated, i mean whats the use anyways. Probably be good if i didnt pass on these dumb moody genes. Maybe its natural selection or something, for the better of humanity that i just die off.

All that said, there is very little of physical reality that genuinely pleases me anymore, which i kind of dont mind on some level because religiously ive come to accept alot of things about the universe and reality and i think there are many other realms, some of them eternal, that are completely unaffected by anything that happens through my lifetime. Realms that are fundamentally a part of me and are so glorious and graceful that they transcend whether i have a shitty day or a good one, or a thousand of either in a row.

Even in my darkest days, when i was like "Absolutely nothing about life matters", there was something (you might call it optimism, but i dont think thats the right word) that made me realize that that fact in itself didn't matter either. Instantly everything reveals itself to be in some harmonic flux and the idea that nothing matters is a key to a fundamental, unlimited potential in everything.

"Just dont have the social tools to hook up with any ladies."

Talk to these female friends imo, me female friends love nothing more than hooking up their sensitive boy-friends and to try and make them happy.

ime*

The best times of my life are behind me

This is bullshit. My old self was an idiot and this is proof.

The old self of about...ten hours ago?

I'm glad you're feeling better.

http://28.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_ljodo8Z7MW1qisuj3o1_500.png

i've come to the conclusion that numbness >>>>>> being overwhelmed by feelings. that place in the middle where you feel nothing but can actually get out of bed and DEAL -- underrated.

i have friends with depression its not fun

I wonder if it's wrong to expect depression or "blue" periods to return. Y'know, as some sort of defense mechanism.

i've been a little depressed lately, but i think it's situational, tied to something fairly specific. it's been said before, but antidepressants don't "cure" depression.

My anti-anxiety medication has *settled* somehow. Thankfully I don't have full blown anxiety anymore. I guess it's the same here with me. That said, I am not going to therapy anymore. It didn't help much.

Nah they don't cure depression and any decent doctor will tell you so. In my case, my ADs just help me put depression on the back burner. So instead of spending my whole day going mental, which is not helping anything, I can spend most of my day trying to sort shit out like finding a better job, not having panic attacks at random (that said, i had a pretty fucking huge one last weekend, but that would have happened no matter what due to circumstances of :(.), not digging myself away in a hole when i could be out socialising and enjoying life which leads to less anxiety and loneliness etc.

^^^this. It's a slow climb. I think I've found a path out of the void (thanks to the meds) but I can see that it's going to take years of "doing the next right thing," failing, trying again, getting it right, ad nauseum.

I gave up after trying Lexapro and then Zoloft. "Not digging myself away in a hole when i could be out socialising and enjoying life which leads to less anxiety and loneliness" is pretty much the benefit I've been looking for. Heard to many bad things about Paxil and Prozac. Haven't kept up with the latest and greatest meds.

I take sertraline, which I think I've discussed on this thread before - I believe its just like an updated version of Zoloft?

Sertraline is the active ingredient of Zoloft and so that's its generic name. UK prescriptions specify the generic name, not the brand name, so that pharmacies can substitute cheaper generic versions rather than buy the Pfizer version - though Pfizer calls it Lustral rather than Zoloft in Europe anyway, but I believe they're effectively the same.

...I think. (They use the generic active ingredient name even when there is only one brand on the market, e.g. for new drugs which are still under patent to the original pharmaceutical company.)

Oh, well then don't listen to me.

Did you say something?

;)

Sorry. Didn't mean to be schoolma'amish. Maybe Lustral is an update from Zoloft - the active ingredient is the same but there may be a different release mechanism.

The generic name (e.g. sertraline) is the drug, and is 100% bioequivalent to the brand name (e.g. Zoloft/Lustral). It has to be in order to be approved for sale.

The way generic/brand name stuff works is this: When a drug is first developed by a drug company, that company has an exclusive patent on that drug for a number of years (which can vary). After that patent expires, any company can make that same drug, but cannot use that brand name.

Drug companies have (in their tricksy, techinically legal way) spread a lot of disinformation about generics. The truth is that generics are EXACTLY the same in every way as the brand name.

/pissypharmacytechnician

So I'm really looking forward to two things: This weekend I'm putting on a new DJ night with my friends playing and on Tuesday I'm off to Barcelona for Primavera Festival. But there's something obscuring my anticipation, and that's my best friend's depression.

These last few months he's become very unstable. I'm never sure when is a good time to talk to him as he can often be very aggressive. Today I texted him to ask if he was still ready and willing to play a set at the club on Friday. He replied in a very rude and confusing way. When I asked him to reiterate he was again very sarcastic and passively aggressive, making it out as if I'd insulted him for some reason.

The thing is, we're all going on holiday together - him, me our better halves and a couple more friends. Whenever they drink, which is inevitable on a holiday like this, he and his gf are likely to argue.

I'm almost certain it's depression, and he's recently started seeking professional help for it. His attitude in the meantime can be very upsetting. Just receiving a few texts has had the power to bum me out, so no wonder his (otherwise very supportive) gf finds it hard going at the best of times.

For the record, he's never violent, but he has a way of turning his perceived problems on other people - believing there's an agenda that doesn't exist and acting on it.

Needless to say I'm anticipating problems on this trip, and I don't know how my friends and I should act if things go awry. We've all been anticipating this trip as it's been years since we all went on holiday as friends - last time was 2008, and back then there were (completely separate) social issues going on, so it would be nice to have a bicker-free holiday for once.

How should I treat it if he gets like this? It always makes me quite upset being accused in this passive aggressive way, but I know I shouldn't argue back. Part of me just wants to shake my friend and say "look buddy, just because you've got problems doesn't mean you can take them out on your mates", but this would be insensitive and probably wouldn't help things. Or what? Do you ignore it and walk away? Leave things to his girlfriend (doesn't seem fair) to sort out? Try and reason with him? Somehow this never seems to work if someone is determined to be unreasonable.

ignore it and walk away.

yeah, i guess so. although it's not always possible.

Offer as much support as you can to the gf, but viz. dealing directly w/ your friend, I doubt there's much you can do. I used to have a close friend who was bipolar, and she had some of the same behaviours you mention. She would get the wrong end of hte stick about things, overreact all the time, would accuse me of being a bad friend based on stories she'd cooked up about me. I bent over backwards to prove her wrong, to reassure her, but it only got worse. In the end I *became* a bad friend, because I couldn't handle the provocation (I had some pretty big problems of my own at the time), and we no longer speak.

I regret this.

If you can zen the whole thing maybe you'll handle it better than I could, but arguing / reasoning definitely don't work, IME.

I cannot think of the last time I've woken up this depressed. It was next to impossible to drag myself out of bed and I find myself glaring at anyone actually daring to smile in public, picturing very horrible things happening to them to remind them that life is nothing but a horrifying string of cruching defeats and misery.

Also crushing defeats.

i've felt much the same way over the past week. I suffered from a major depressive episode from about 1989 to 1994 (yes that is a long time) which was seriously compounded by horrible alcohol abuse on top of all kinds of meds I was prescribed...nightmare. Finally pulled myself out of all of that and, despite having increasing anxiety over the past several years, I hadn't had this kind of depression in years. But last week it came out of nowhere: unable to concentrate, things seeming pointless, an almost overwhelming urge to weep? WTF. lasted four days then left....then came back. seems to be nipping around everywhere the second I don't keep myself occupied.

it was suggested I might look into amino acid supplements to control this since it seemed so chemical; there is no logical reason for me to be depressed like this. has anyone tried this? I don't even know where to get or who to talk to about them. not interested in doing meds again since my experience with them was horrifying (probably because I was drinking on top of them but still).

has anyone ever tried 5HTP for depression?

completely fucking useless ime

mate texted and apologised BTW. He tends to realise he's being a jerk, but often all too late.

jon: it's this fucking rain, maybe? I honestly can't take it anymore. everyone I know is so dejected and morose. last night I got home and cried for no particular reason :(

Well the rain certainly isn't helping, but the bigger issue was being told by our real estate agent last night that its pretty much hopeless for us to sell our house right now. Which, fine, market sucks blah blah, but the reason I'm depressed is because we now have to face up to the very real fact that we will be bringing our baby home to a house right next door to literal drug-dealing murdered. And the fact that I am powerless to change things is crushing me right now. I feel like an utter failure.

DL, I would probably be a little confrontational with the friend. "I know you're dealing with emotional issues, but I have yes/no questions and I just want to get some yes/no answers. I'm not a mind-reader -- if there's something you're mad at me about, I haven't figured out what it is yet, let's deal with it separately. In the meantime, are you doing a set Friday?" It doesn't diminish their real unhappiness and/or perceived grievances, but it also says "the world needs you to deal with it on somebody else's terms for a few minutes, just for a few minutes."

xp aha

xp But that's not your fault at all - that's the wider world at work. But I can understand what a drag it must be.

Yeah, I think that might be along the right lines WmC.

Oh jon. :( People have brought their babies home to much, MUCH worse places. At least you own this one, fwiw, and it's private and only your little family will live there. Anyway, the kid won't remember anything until they're at least two, so you've still got a couple of years to figure this out.

I mean, who does this situation affect? Your baby, who won't remember. Your wife...how does she feel? And you, who are beating yourself up for some kind of social expectation that's built on a whole other kind of economy/world than we life in.

Laurel is OTM here. This is not a reflection on you Jon.

^^^

I understand that on a rational, logical level, but I'm having hard time not seeing it as some sort of failure on my part on a more emotional level. Its not really the memories that concern me, its that we've had to call the cops on them for violent fistfights in our front yard, gunshots, and we still have a bullet hole in the brick on the side of our house from several years ago. Its really scary to think that, no matter how nurturing of an immediate environment we provide, that there is this wild card out there completely out of our control.

Also, if you spend this time feeling sorry for yourself and ruminating on your failures, you are going to be feeling horrible and lose out on the lead-up to the birth of your and your wife's first child. That would really be a shame. ;_;

In the nicest way, because I need to have my head jogged like this ALL THE TIME, I'm trying to say that this time in your life is not about you and your success or failure. I believe that you mean only the best, but the thing to do is to be emotionally present right now, and appreciative of the wealth of things you DO have, and fix this spring and these days and this excitement into your memory so you can have beautiful stories for your child of the days when you longed for her to be born so you could meet her.

Your child won't be going outside or playing in the yard or walking to school for a while yet. You have time. Slow down and be, maaaan.

want to say something encouraging, but laurel's handling that better than i ever could, so yeah, what she said

Living in circumstances that concern you can be deeply troubling. Never lived next door to full-on gangsters, but I have rented next to some pretty scary/threatening people and I know it's tough because even in your own home it's hard to feel at ease. I think a lot of depression comes from a sort of a state of - perhaps quite rational - "constant worry". Rather than coming home and relaxing, you're on edge because you're subconsciously wondering what next door will get up to next.

Stuff like this has left me quite low and irritable in my own life. I start worrying that my "future self" won't be able to handle the situation if and when it happens, whatever that situation may be. And that theoretical situation starts snowballing in my mind - I start thinking about the worst case scenario and almost convincing myself it will happen at some point in time. So I go round worrying about not if but when it'll happen - not a good state of mind. This is amplified by a frustration at not being able to affect the situation in a positive way, giving way to irrational feelings of uselessness.

The thing is, in my experience the worst case scenario never takes place at all, and all the pain and worry turns out to be for nought. Any issues sort themselves out, for better or worse. You have to remind yourself that you have all the time in the world to sort your existence out and that you can't do this all in one day.

Meh, don't know if that's anything like how you feel. I'm just chatting breeze now.

No dog latin, you've pretty much nailed it on the head exactly. After some of the early issues we had with the neighbors, I relaxed a little thinking, well, we've dealt with the worst and moved on, so it can't be that bad. But when someone was murdered, well, I went back to that constant state of anxiety and its just increased lately. Which is why we were doing everything in our power to sell our house because, as you kind of hint at, even if nothing ever happens it is still no fun living in a constant state of worry and anxiety.

the someone who was murdered was someone involved in the next door situation, no? these things rarely reach strangers. I'd rather live near drug dealers than junkies - do you know any details about them?

Yeah, it was a friend of one of the guys who lived there who was killed, so I realize its extremely unlikely that anything will directly be aimed at us. But, on the other hand, a larger concern is that they frequently have "visitors" really strung out on something or other screaming on their (and our) front yard, brandishing firearms, etc etc. I mean, I'm not afraid of being a direct victim, but what scares me more than anything is that it just takes one stray bullet...

Be grateful for everything.

Its advice like "be grateful for everything" that makes me think I'm wired wrong or whatever, because, no, sorry, I just can't be "grateful" to be living next door to criminals.

you have a house, a job and a family! many people your age do not.

Jon, you'll sort this out eventually one way or another. It might take a wee while, but you're not stuck there forever. At the bleakest of times one tends to feel doomed, like "what if this is it? what if I have to spend my whole life in this situation?" Like the time I lost my job and a huge bill came through that I just couldn't pay. Suddenly I entered panic mode - visions of bailiffs kicking down my door and ejecting me from my house to die in the cold etc... This thought process took 5 minutes to work through my mind in its entirety - and it was incredibly distressing, I felt hopeless. But one way or another I found a way. It took three months to get a new job and a further year to recover financially from that time.
Point is, in retrospect that memory feels like a snapshot of my misery and worry - I feel detached from it now, because I know I took practical steps to resolve it. On that day, if someone had told me "oh you'll be fine in a year" I'd probably have freaked out, but now it feels like a blip in an otherwise regular state of normalcy.