Every huge artist has their "New Jersey" - a huge event album that ultimately feels a bit hollow & signals a career decline

from the Lady Gaga ARTPOP thread:

i have a theory that every super popular artist has a "New Jersey" - like Bon Jovi's album New Jersey -- where it's still super popular and even more popular than the albums that preceded it but there's some sense that the gig is up.

― Elrond Hubbard (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:21 AM (41 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^
that'd be a nice thread (if it doesn't already exist)!

― mr.raffles, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:24 AM (38 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

btw dudes i was like a kid when New Jersey came out...but even me as just a fan, i kinda *wanted* to like New Jersey as much, and there was some sense that it was a "big deal" and i should like it and i bought the cassette but i think we all could sense it just wasn't *as good*...i'm not sure what critics thought but i bet they did, i didn't read reviews or have access to them.

so i wasn't talking critically.

but anyway like as time goes by you'll find that people going to gaga show would be way more jazzed about like "bad romance" than "edge of glory"...

like I'm trying to think of another example....Graduation is Kanye's New Jersey.....that's another example....

― Elrond Hubbard (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:40 AM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

You're black, white, beige, POLLa descent: Lady Gaga - Born This Way (poll)

― lex pretend, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:46 AM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

and people get on me about MY poll titles!

(j/k, i am curious to see how this one turns out...)

― Doctor Casino, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:49 AM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Graduation is Kanye's New Jersey.....that's another example....

I think it's a stronger case to say 808s was his New Jersey

― keeping things contextual (DJP), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:50 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i think of a band's New Jersey as their bigger but hollower victory lap album so def Graduation not 808s

― da croupier, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:54 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"bigger" meaning bombast not necessarily sales

― da croupier, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:55 AM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

NJ had five top tens including two #1's and except for "Bad Medicine" they've all vanished from the face of the earth

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:55 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

fuck that noise "I'll Be There For You" will always be there for me

― da croupier, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:56 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

"Born To Be My Baby" and "Lay Your Hands On Me" are definitely arena filler though

― da croupier, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:56 AM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

all i remember about "living in sin" is that the video seemed risque when i last saw it in elementary school

― da croupier, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:57 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

omg I had completely blocked "Living In Sin" from my memory

― keeping things contextual (DJP), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:57 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

parents got upset when "Living in Sin" showed two mulleted youths defying society and good fashion taste and I think MTV banned it from playing during daylight hours or something

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:57 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

seriously mad at all of you right now, gah

you are ruining my JAMC because all I can hear over "Catchfire" is the chorus to "Living In Sin"

― keeping things contextual (DJP), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 11:58 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

To be a New Jersey:
- follow-up to a huge, (possibly) defining record
- has less and/or smaller hits than prev album - or - hits based more on momentum than appeal
- brings with it the feeling that the NEXT record (if there is one) will see the bottom fall out (relatively speaking)

Sound about right?

I'll go ahead and nominate 'Here's to Future Days.'

― mr.raffles, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:00 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

then I nominate Huey Lewis and the News' Fore!.

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:01 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^ SO otm

― mr.raffles, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:01 PM (38 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Did Around the World in a Day feel that way in '85?

― Eric H., Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:02 PM (28 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Fore! is the fourth album by American rock band Huey Lewis and the News, released in 1986 (see 1986 in music). The album hit number one on the Billboard 200 album chart and contained five top-ten Billboard Hot 100 singles, including the number-one hits: "Stuck with You" and "Jacob's Ladder."

this is American Life in a nutshell

or wait, is it Music? I think actually Music is the album that qualifies

I'm so bad at this

ZZ TOP - Afterburner

are we conflating "victory lap" albums with Huge Event Albums That Ultimately Feel Shallow?

cuz Music feels like both!

Cher - Heart of Stone

how i phrased it in the other thread:

it's just an album that survived mostly on zeitgeist and professionalism that in hindsight served as a stopgap before a major drop or left turn

not everyone has one!

This would technically have to be an album that really DID mark the end of an artist's era, right? Like, we're talking artists that only ascended to the apex once and then fell almost just as fast? If so, Madonna probably doesn't exactly qualify.

ZZ TOP - Afterburner

― mr.raffles, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:07 PM (49 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^bingo

Dan, for most people Madonna is an 80s artists or an early 90s artists at the very latest....she wasn't huge in pop culture by then, you could make a case for Erotica but i don't think she has a New Jersey.

but either way madonna was no where near her zeitgiest or sales peak on ray of light, which is what i think dan is suggesting?

R.E.M. - Monster

From Wikipedia:
Monster debuted #1 in the US and UK charts. "What's the Frequency, Kenneth?" and "Bang and Blame" were the band's last American Top 40 hits. Their following album New Adventures in Hi-Fi debuted at number two in the US and number one in the UK. The five million copies of the album sold were a reversal of the group's commercial fortunes of the previous five years.

Mj's "bad"

Music doesn't count cuz "Don't Tell Me" is like one of her biggest late era hits and people love that album

Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness.

An element of buyer's remorse also factors in. The "I realized one album too late that he/she/they were never all that."

it's funny....Watch the Throne ISN'T one of these because of where it fits in their careers, but man does it FEEL like one.

Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness.

― skip, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:11 PM (34 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^great example

xpost I mean, that's the pulse reading everyone's giving Born This Way now.

Melon Collie has too many fans to count. Plus "1979"!

Smashing Pumpkins fans aren't saying "oh man I can't even remember those Melon Collie singles"

interesting though how some bands react to this: so I'd say Rattle & Hum is U2's New Jersey but their best albums came afterward; or am I f'ing this up?

Monster is probably a much better mid 90s example of this though... Mellon Collie certainly has its "hollow" moments but "The End Is The Beginning Is The End" is probably the real beginning of the end for SP.

This would technically have to be an album that really DID mark the end of an artist's era, right? Like, we're talking artists that only ascended to the apex once and then fell almost just as fast? If so, Madonna probably doesn't exactly qualify.

well, the thing about being the end of Bon Jovi's era is that it was the end of the era where they got automatic radio play; they still sell out practically every venue they play and every album they've released since Slippery When Wet has hit the top ten, most often #1

so, I feel a lot of this is based on perception rather than actual performance; Ray of Light has sold more copies than Like A Prayer, for example

I don't want to admit Monster counts cuz I love it but the sheer number of copies sold back probably defines "buyer's remorse"

Rattle & Hum probably counts in that it was definitely followed by a left turn and people today would be like "um, Angel In Harlem was a top 20 hit? Really?"

I get the sense artists don't recover from their New Jersey.

Dancing on the Ceiling - Lionel Richie

xpost - Monster is, in many ways, the iconic Used CD.

on an indie rock level:

The Shins - Chutes too Narrow

interesting though how some bands react to this: so I'd say Rattle & Hum is U2's New Jersey but their best albums came afterward; or am I f'ing this up?

― Euler, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:14 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah but Rattle & Hum is a New Jersey...U2 just did the trick of pulling a Kid A after a New Jersey

haha raffles is good at this

Bon Jovi has certainly had a ton of hits and made a ton of cash since but it was definitely a game changer. Madonna doesn't quite work because basically she was Queen Shit and aging gracefully (with a mild mis-step around Erotica) and then made American Life.

Human touch/Lucky town

well, the thing about being the end of Bon Jovi's era is that it was the end of the era where they got automatic radio play; they still sell out practically every venue they play and every album they've released since Slippery When Wet has hit the top ten, most often #1

Maybe then it's less a signpost of "career decline" and more a mass discovery of career limits that didn't previously seem obvious/relevant.

Mj's "bad"

I would say it's probably Dangerous, that was MJ's first CD-length album and clearly was meant to be the start of a new era, free from QJ, on to a different sound, etc. etc. And there were a ton of singles from it but compared to Off the Wall, Thriller, and Bad, only maybe one of them is still ubiquitous today (and that one is one of his most routinely mocked).

Even less-huge artists have this. e.g., Replacements and Don't Tell a Soul.

Genesis - I Can't Dance (in re: the career of Phil Collins)

Don Henley - The End of the Innocence

that album still has a lot of respect for a Don Henley album - in Don's career I'd argue Eagles' Hell Freezes Over

Wait a sec, what about NIN - The Fragile

nice one frogbs

yeah but i don't think a New Jersey is necessarily terrible or even critical reviled, it can be good and popular etc but there's this inexpressible sense that the era of this artist is slipping away even as they are super popular at the moment.

Wait a sec, what about NIN - The Fragile

― frogbs, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:21 PM (58 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^this would be a great pick but Trent lets too much time go in between albums, it was a different era when he reemerged, but if it were like a year or two after the downward spiral i'd be totally on board

thing is, an album like End Of The Innocence or Melon Collie isn't loaded with the sense of somebody slipping away, it's just the last album they made before it happened.

and with the pumpkins it's more like Madonna where they had to go and push the envelope too far on the next album

Mellencamp "Lonesome Jubilee"

ultimately i am not the world's foremost don henley expert....so i will defer.

melon collie DID have some hits, and at least one (1979) that's beloved, but man even at the time that was a fucking SLOG

I hate myself for writing this but... Wild Mood Swings

INXS - Welcome to Wherever You Are

Mellencamp "Lonesome Jubilee"

― chr1sb3singer, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:25 PM (28 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^good one

I hate myself for writing this but... Wild Mood Swings

― keeping things contextual (DJP), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:26 PM (10 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

wouldnt wish be a better examp

I wish Weezer's Make Believe had been one of these but they are just as popular as ever.

this would be a great pick but Trent lets too much time go in between albums, it was a different era when he reemerged, but if it were like a year or two after the downward spiral i'd be totally on board

I see what you mean, this is why I didn't really want to mention Human After All because the follow-up to Discovery would have been huge had it came out in 2003. But The Fragile still sold boatloads.

wouldnt wish be a better examp

NO SHUT UP I HATE YOU

yeah weezer's thing is too weird because their Led Zeppelin IV was perceived as a New Jersey when it came out and then things changed a few years later.

wouldnt wish be a better examp

NO SHUT UP I HATE YOU

― keeping things contextual (DJP), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:27 PM (4 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

haha your anger just confirms that Wish is a New Jersey.

THE ALBUM EVERYONE LOVES followed by THE ALBUM EVERYONE BOUGHT followed by THE PROOF THINGS DONE CHANGED

with New Jersey in the middle - so albums that are adored by the fanbase (like Melon Collie) can't really qualify

Fatboy Slim - Halfway Between the Gutter and the Stars is another one, maybe FBS was never really "huge" per se but that was the "wait, why did we make such a big deal out of this guy" moment

wouldnt wish be a better examp

NO SHUT UP I HATE YOU

― keeping things contextual (DJP), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 12:27 PM (4 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

haha your anger just confirms that Wish is a New Jersey.

― Elrond Hubbard (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:28 PM (33 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

lolll

You're right, I think REM and NIN fit that pattern though.

it's actually a real accomplishment to get a New Jersey - a lot of bands miss their window and go straight to PROOF THINGS DONE CHANGED

WMS still went gold in the US

Bloodflowers then went gold in... Switzerland

Phil Collins "...But Seriously"

I am totally losing this argument aren't I

Frankie Goes To Hollywood - Liverpool. Or maybe even Welcome To The Pleasuredome, I remember the expectation around the album was huge but it seemed like a Grand Statement that fell pretty flat.

This is a UK thing btw.

it's actually a real accomplishment to get a New Jersey - a lot of bands miss their window and go straight to PROOF THINGS DONE CHANGED

^^^ this

hmm maybe downward spiral is the new jersey? but it's probably too good.

NIN wasn't really huge until that album, though

I feel like some people aren't getting that a New Jersey isn't a flop, and isn't an album that still makes Best of the Decade lists

I guess I could say Songs of Faith and Devotion? DM sales are kind of weirdly constant tho, esp in German-speaking countries

I think this theory explains many of the things I love about Born This Way. Being massively, zeitgeisty huge and still violently underrated and undervalued is tons of fun.

I feel like some people aren't getting that a New Jersey isn't a flop, and isn't an album that still makes Best of the Decade lists

Right, no one will admit to either liking it, even though they own or owned it.

either

Fairweather Motherfucking Johnson

Pearl Jam - Vs.

Afterburner is perfect - it was still a HIT ALBUM, but nobody loves it like Eliminator and by the next one the moment clearly passed. A key symptom of a New Jersey is to look at at the singles and see if you're surprised how high they charted.

Like say Cyndi Lauper's True Colors featuring the #3 hit "Change Of Heart"

Stankonia

Sgt Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band

A "New Jersey" is a big album (sometimes huge) that is basically only big becuz it is cresting on the interia of the previous record.

If he didn't die..."In Utero" would have been Nirvana's "New Jersey"

excuse me, waiter, i specifically asked for no challops

Manic Street Preachers - This Is My Truth Tell Me Yours

Ha, but still, all my friends were kind of over Nirvana before he died! It's a great record though

xpost

Floyd's The Final Cut went platinum in the USA & was #1 in the UK, I'll put it forward

Dancing on the Ceiling - Lionel Richie

― mr.raffles, Tuesday, 7 August 2012 1

yes

I'd think there was a Sting album that fit this criteria, but Ten Summoner's Tales is really one of his best and Mercury Falling was a commercial disaster.

Totally "The Final Cut", do people even know that record exists anymore?

A friend with whom I'm IM'ing said "Tunnel of Love" but that's not quite right

PE's Greatest Misses felt this way to me at the time, but I don't know what its sales were like.

Songs of Faith & Devotion is a good one. Not Rattle & Hum though - nobody would ever be under the impression that Joshua Tree had been supplanted. (that's the point, right? It looks for a while like the blockbuster's been beaten, then it ... just hasn't)

I thought of "Tunnel of Love" but yeah it's not quite right, a "New Jersey" isn't a flop exactly, more like no one realizes it is a flop until they've owned it for six months

Cheap Trick- Dream Police

You got killer single and George Martin- should have been their victory lap and it was popular but they had kinda lost something and the slide to the state fair starts.

oh I think R&H is a perfect example!

I gotta say, this is basically the perfect ILM thread

Tribe Called Quest - Beats, Rhymes, and Life

Like say Cyndi Lauper's True Colors featuring the #3 hit "Change Of Heart"

wtf are you talking about, that is not a surprise at all

surprising is seeing that "I Drove All Night" hit #6

Tribe Called Quest - Beats, Rhymes, and Life

omg this is super OTM

Blur - The Great Escape

True Colors also, erm, had a #1 single that unfortunately hasn't disappeared

We have different working definitions of "huge event album."

sorry I was not under the impression people still liked True Colors

cyndi's third album didn't even go gold so if True Colors is just too damn good an album to be a New Jersey she doesn't have one

Tusk was one of these, and then it got released

R.E.M. - Monster

Insanity itself -- it's obviously AUTOMATIC FOR THE PEOPLE, which seemed huge at the time, but let's face it, in retrospect, R.E.M. as a hitmaker is "the band who recorded Losing My Religion" not "the band who recorded Drive." It sold a lot of copies at the time, though.

people still rave about Automatic. I love Monster but the "#1 sold-back cd ever" thing is hard to ignore. Wish would qualify if Cure fans had abandoned it but I don't think that's the case.

eephus otm, and I'd never realised before

hit-wise you could talk about "the band who recorded Everybody Hurts"

Wish would qualify if Cure fans had abandoned it but I don't think that's the case.

This is the main reason why I said Wild Mood Swings

actually yeah croup is right about True Colors, insofar as it's a piece of shit that coasted on momentum, and you never hear "What's Going On" and "Change of Heart" anymore.

you do in my house, buddy

I want video of you and the misses slow dancing to "What's Going On"

The Verve - Urban Hymns

britpop rules this thread

It's obviously not Automatic but Monster seems wrong because people immediately hated that album.

Be Hear Now?

Be Here Now lol

in American Urban Hymns was their only hit album and it looks like Richard Astbury's solo career did quite alright over in the UK so idgi - also don't critics still worship that album?

Let It Come Down by Spiritualized might fit.

lol Richard Ashcroft, sorry, freudian slip

Then again, on the metric of "last.fm" plays, people are still listening to "Everybody Hurts," "Man in the Moon," and "Nightswimming" in large numbers -- who knew?

Actually, I think REM just fails to meet this pattern: looks like AFTP sold about as many copies as Out of Time but none of the singles charted higher than 28; "Everybody Hurts" topped at 29, and "Nightswimming," 5th most listened to REM song per last.fm, didn't even crack top 100.

None of these charted as high as "Losing My Religion" or "Shiny Happy People" or, for that matter, "What's the Frequency, Kenneth?" or "Bang and Blame."

"What's Going On" isn't a slow dance song!

with REM isn't it New Adventures? it was obvious the gig was up but it still sold bucketloads; oh but I guess people on ILM defend this hunk of junk, blah

"What's Going On" isn't a slow dance song!

shows you how long it's been since I heard it. I remember those goopy synths at the beginning

with REM isn't it New Adventures? it was obvious the gig was up but it still sold bucketloads

No, because Monster sold as many copies and scored two more singles that charted higher

whoops – thought this said Automatic. Time for lunch!

yeah & they coasted into New Adventures' sales

xp right!

Out Of Time, Automatic and Monster all sold 4 million copies stateside. New Adventures sold 1 million. Monster is famously the most sold back CD, now gets two-star reviews in publications when it came out to four stars - I hate to admit it but I don't know how it's not "THE ONE EVERYONE BOUGHT"

Mj's "bad"

^^^ first thing I thought of

eephus's crazy REM theory is eating itself

you still hear "Bang & Blame" on the radio though; but "Bittersweet Me" was the biggest single on New Adventures and uh

it's not like all the songs from New Jersey are banned from radio

thread title just does not scan well with chorus of "Hungry Heart"

Billy Ocean - Love Zone

why Love Zone and not Tear Down These Walls

the fact that stipe so strenuously insisted that monster was 'totally punk rock' weighs in favor of its nj-osity

Metallica - The Black Album

only cuz TDTW only managed one massive #1 and the album charted lower.

xxpost

Hmm how about In Through The Out Door? Pretty much un-listened to these days, apart from people on ilm obviously.

The album remained on the US top spot for seven weeks and sold three million copies by the end of September 1979.[9] It is also the Led Zeppelin album that has been most weeks on the top of the charts (tied along with Led Zeppelin II). To date, the album has sold six million copies in the US.

TDDW had a top #3 hit with a cartoon duck in the video, so I don't think that album is a "CLEARLY THINGS HAVE CHANGED" album

i'd say presence

xpost where as the follow-up to TDDW is literally named Time To Move On

Guns & Roses - Use Your Illusion 1 & 2

"Bad" didn't follow the exact NJ formula, as it had hits that are still remembered, but there was a definite sense that things had gone sour after OTW and Thriller.

silverfish otm

Cheap Trick- Dream Police

You got killer single and George Martin- should have been their victory lap and it was popular but they had kinda lost something and the slide to the state fair starts.

― earlnash, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:43 PM (22 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

George Martin didn't produce Dream Police, but did produce the follow-up, All Shook Up (which didn't sell too well, and didn't have any major hits).

Ironically, Dream Police was recorded before At Budokan was released.

but only one follow-up single scraping into the top twenty and the album stalled at platinum. Love Zone was his last event album.

xpost to croup.

ok i was only there as a little kid watching billy ocean videos with aliens, cartoon ducks and danny devitos so if you're really sure that the "Event" status of a billy ocean album had been lost and I missed it that's possible.

the thing about the NJ is that it's a bit of a dis. Hard to pin on someone like MJ because it requires implying "The Way You Make Me Feel" or "Remember The Time" was negligible in hindsight and good luck with that.

Yep, MJ managed to sidestep having a New Jersey, unless the second disc of HIStory being smuggled in as part of a greatest hits counts. Even still, the singles from it are still pretty well regarded.

if an artist is consistently good and doesn't have a quality drop-off before a commercial drop-off, they didn't really have a New Jersey.

i have no idea what "Remember The Time" is, and I'm pretty sure I can sing every single off Thriller, so there's that

yeah but you thought Automatic For The People was lost to the sands of time

Destiny's Child - Survivor

oh yeah it was clear Beyonce was in decline after that one

These are really good points, I think:

Maybe then it's less a signpost of "career decline" and more a mass discovery of career limits that didn't previously seem obvious/relevant.

― Eric H., Tuesday, 7 August 2012 17:19 (3 minutes ago) Permalink

It looks for a while like the blockbuster's been beaten, then it ... just hasn't)

― Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 7 August 2012 17:42 (11 seconds ago) Permalink

ok i was only there as a little kid watching billy ocean videos with aliens, cartoon ducks and danny devitos so if you're really sure that the "Event" status of a billy ocean album had been lost and I missed it that's possible.

the whole point of this thread is naked geekdom!

i have no idea what "Remember The Time" is, and I'm pretty sure I can sing every single off Thriller, so there's that

bingo, Remember is a good single but not something you'll hear often 20 years from now (if you even hear it much today)

Afterburner, Rattle and Hum and Fore! look like the best contenders so far.

I picked Monster based on buyer's remorse. The last album that, in retrospective, most people ended up caring about from REM is Automatic for the People which makes Monster the one that signaled the gig was up, it also sold more than its predecessors and successors at the time. It fits perfectly with the criteria of the thread.

The fact that it became the most sold-back album of all time tells you all you need to know. Lots of people bought it and lots of people stopped caring.

xp: except that it's awesome

Afterburner, Rattle and Hum and Fore! look like the best contenders so far.

― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 2:18 PM (2 minutes ago)

Should totally have the heavyweights compete in a most "New Jersey" poll after this runs its course!

and Dancing on the Ceiling

To be a New Jersey:
- follow-up to a huge, (possibly) defining record
- has less and/or smaller hits than prev album - or - hits based more on momentum than appeal
- brings with it the feeling that the NEXT record (if there is one) will see the bottom fall out (relatively speaking)

Def Leppard's "Adrenalize" ... right? Or no?

definitely

YES

So is it that New Jerseys are way more common in rock than in pop or R&B or that people just expect artists to drop away in the latter 2 genres?

i mean it's a little off in that New Jersey was huge and Adrenalize was merely a hit, but shit if MTV didn't play the video for "Make Love Like A Man" a ton anyway

Yes' Big Generator maybe?

xposts If so, I love that BTW even sounds like it's trying to be a New Jersey.

xp: based more on momentum than appeal, I assume

In penance for my challopsy stance on REM I would like to nominate Bossa Nova, which charted higher than Doollittle in both the US and UK. I think it's fair to say that "Velouria" and "Dig for Fire" are hardly listened to now compared to the earlier singles, but they were a big deal at the time.

"Adrenalize" would have been even more of a "New Jersey" if had come out in say 1990 rather then 1992.

"Use Your Illusion 1 & 2" mention'd up thread is so otm it is kind of blowing my mind a bit

I can't decide if it's Kid A or the one that came after it.

Seriously, can we refrain from listing albums that sold less than a million copies, much less 5 million?

idk if i had a special nose for these or anything but new jersey, adrenalize, and mellon collie all just seemed plain BAD to me at the time

Yes' Big Generator maybe?

I remember trying really hard to love "Rhythm of Love" as much as I did "It Can Happen" or "Leave It," but I dunno, this was well outsold by 90125 and had no huge hit like "Owner of a Lonely Heart"

Bossanova totally sounds like a low-level Jersey to me

The Pixies discography is too short imho but Bossa Nova could definitely fit in this thread.

I don't know how general consensus had it, this kind of thought applied to Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots for me for a while, until Embryonic brought something new. But since there's (surprisingly to me) only one album in between it muddies it a bit - with the novelty band ubiquitousness they managed to maintain over a fairly long period of not releasing much it feels like there had to have been a couple of other passable but uninteresting Yoshimi-style albums in there somewhere.

yeah I get Eric's "actual hit please" request but in hindsight Doolittle is clearly a bigger deal than Bossanova and the only people who even talk about Trompe Le Monde are people who thought the Pixies were consistently awesome (like me).

Journey - Frontiers
REO Speedwagon - Good Trouble
Foreigner - Agent Provocateur
Styx - Kilroy Was Here

Paula Abdul - Spellbound

hah perfect

yeah i don't think the pixies qualify here but frank black's solo career sure does. maybe his first solo album? idk

I dunno how big a deal it was but:

Rolling Stones - Goat's Head Soup

Journey's Raised on Radio closer, Matt #2, no?

I considered Bossanova my fave Pixies album for a long time. I still love it.

I understand it's not as good as Doolittle, etc., but it's a good record. And if nothing else, I don't think the bottom dropped out on Trompe Le Monde AT ALL. Yeah, there are a couple weak tunes in the second half, but overall it's great, too.

Could be that I just love the Pixies too much to see any of the albums as a NJ.

though actually the problem with the Pixies is that people weren't saying "oh the pixies they're over" when Trompe Le Monde came out or anything. That album still got them Buzz Bin status and high placement in critic charts - in general maybe it is a good idea to stick to actual chart heavies.

man those Spellbound singles have vanished, in part, I hope, because everyone realized they were awful

I love Spellbound. So it probably deserves to be mentioned in this thread.

fwiw, i think keeping this to giant hits a la REM, U2, Def Leppard, etc., makes more sense than something like Frank Black's solo albums...i mean it's hard to even fathom shoehorning "NJ" status on like The Cult of Ray

Tho in that case, the problem was that it deviated too far from its predecessor. So "coasting off the last one" isn't really in play.

and by Cult of Ray I meant Teenager of the Year

Also, "Rush Rush" gets played about as often as "Opposites Attract" and "The Way That You Love Me" these days, so *shrug*

I can't decide if it's Kid A or the one that came after it.

― Clarke B.

You're probably joking but anyhoo:
Hail to the Thief did pretty good on sales and even though we don't know actual sales numbers 'In Rainbows' but it seemed like a big thing at the time. 'Nude' hitted the Top 40 charts (something which they hadn't managed since High and Dry) and it did pretty good with fans and critics. If anything The King of Limbs might be it but you'll have to wait for the next album to be sure.

I think Ministry bricked too hard to qualify here otherwise I'd totally be repping Filth Pig

Some people in this thread are confusing the difference between an album they consider bad versus one that gave the overall perception that it was over. I never said Bossanova or Monster were bad albums, I actually like them a lot.

But do you think Bossanova gave the overall perception that it was over? If anything I think Trompe Le Monde did that.

which it was, of course. sort of. for a while.

cult acts have a different but similar arc involving albums that seemed like potential breakthroughs that weren't in hindsight, shit like that deserves its own thread

the ministry pick should be psalm 69 if you were an OG wax trax head but the sales numbers throw that one out, no?

xp hm lotta rules to this thing

well as an OG Wax Trax head I'd actually say A Mind Is A Terrible Thing To Taste is the answer but I know no one agrees with me; I did have Psalm 69 in there originally but for whatever reason a lot of people still like that thing

But do you think Bossanova gave the overall perception that it was over?

I do, and I think you see a lot of Bossanova in used-CD racks a la Monster.

someone should have told spin

also u2

a lot of people in 1991 missed that the pixies were in decline

I think Bossa gave the perception that they'd only likely be a marginal concern going forward, rather than breaking through into the mainstream.
In the slipstream of Doolittle, it kinda seemed anything was possible.

That WOULD be a nice separate thread.

Skimming 180+ posts, has anyone said Autoamerican? And does it qualify? Boatloads of people bought it for "Rapture," but many of my early-adopter Blondie-loving friends couldn't really hang with the lounge jazz or the pretensions of a lot of it.

Tool - Lateralus

any album from this list of albums that sold less than half of their predecessors, including Filth Pig, should probably be out of contention: commercially disappointing major label rock/alternative albums of 1996

Janet Jackson's last blockbuster from her 5 album run of being huge, All For You, probably deserves a mention

I was trying to do Billy Joel, but I'm stymied by the fact that his last two records, which I think of as well past the point where he was at all relevant, were both massive hits and went to #1.

xpost Totally! Can't believe I didn't think of that one.

I'm stymied by the fact that his last two records, which I think of as well past the point where he was at all relevant, were both massive hits and went to #1.

That's part of the definition for being a New Jersey. That they were actually massive in every way but relevance.

Storm Front's singles have too much staying power to count, and River Of Dreams might be disqualified for not having a follow-up

Janet Jackson is a slightly unfair case because IMO what actually torpedoed her career was having Justin Timberlake expose her breast piercing to everyone watching the Superbowl halftime show rather than everyone deciding that everything was over when All For You came out, plus the placement for the singles off of it isn't really surprising/shocking

it also didn't help that large chunks of Damita Jo were terrible

Yeah, sad as it is I think "We Didn't Start The Fire" and "This is the Time" are both part of BJ's permanent record.

Surely Load is the Metallica entry. Loads of hype, huge event, biggest first week seller of the year (and Metallica's career), and then people listened to the thing and went "...eh." It's not a bad album but the magic is gone, and everything since has been awful.

I was trying to do Billy Joel, but I'm stymied by the fact that his last two records, which I think of as well past the point where he was at all relevant, were both massive hits and went to #1.

― Guayaquil (eephus!), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 1:50 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

billy joel is kind of weird because he was very popular in multiple decades and sort of distinctive eras....like the "Uptown Girl: A Tribute to 80's Billy Joel" joke in Step Brothers....

it's like, if Graceland existed in a vacuum in Paul Simon's career, Rhythm of the Saints might be a New Jersey, but obviously you'd have to ignore the rest of his career....

but yeah Use Your Illusion 1 & 2 is sort of so accurate to this thread I'm shocked it took that long to get posted, and why didn't I think of that?

how about "the next Fun. album"

it is an endless source of amusement to me that Billy Joel has an album called Storm Front

I keep wanting to googleproof the name

Janet Jackson is a slightly unfair case because IMO what actually torpedoed her career was having Justin Timberlake expose her breast piercing to everyone watching the Superbowl halftime show rather than everyone deciding that everything was over when All For You came out, plus the placement for the singles off of it isn't really surprising/shocking

it also didn't help that large chunks of Damita Jo were terrible

― keeping things contextual (DJP), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 2:53 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark

i think the latter is key here -- the Justin thing didn't help but i don't really envision some scenario where Damito Jo was a success, none of those songs were ever gonna be chart-topping smash hits.

Oh btw I'll defer to a goon expert on this for a ruling but I feel like T.I. probably has a New Jersey but I'm not quite sure which one it is.

wouldn't the Velvet Rope be Janet Jackson's New Jersey?

re: Metallica - Load

I remember people being pretty much immediately disappointed with Load, which doesn't really fit the definition of a New Jersey.

xxxxxpost

T.I. Vs. T.I.P. would be a New Jersey in that it sold well without anyone really liking it or remembering the singles but then Paper Trail came next and was huge

incidentally i have a friend who, anytime Bon Jovi is mentions, says something about how huge New Jersey was and every time i'm like "uh pretty sure you mean Slippery When Wet"

Ha yes, the Use Your Illusions out-New Jersey New Jersey

could the new Rick Ross be his New Jersey or was that the last one?

I'm probably SO wrong, but for Janet, I'd probably go with "janet."

Looking at the list of singles on wiki, there's a lot of "eh?" there (for me)... and, in the US at least, her follow-up albums/singles didn't feel as effortlessly culturally relevant.

I feel like I believe this, but also feel like I'm grasping a bit. hahaha

People were really into Use Your Illusion 1 & 2. Everybody was listening to it and it was all over the radio. But these days when people think about 1991-1992 they just remember Nirvana/Pearl Jam/etc.

They released 10 singles from the Use Your Illusions.

listening to Damita Jo right now, I'm kind of getting the sense that aside from "All Nite (Don't Stop)" they actively chose some of the worst songs on the album to release as singles

I say "some of" because at least they had the sense to not try to release "Strawberry Bounce" as a single

also it's pretty well documented from Janet's/Jermaine's side that the label basically treated them like pariahs and didn't support the album at all after the Superbowl incident, which was only two months before the album was released (and it didn't help that, in the wake of a national nudity scandal, Janet released an album full of "oh hey guess what, everything is dirty dirty sex!" songs)

re: Metallica - Load

I remember people being pretty much immediately disappointed with Load, which doesn't really fit the definition of a New Jersey.

xxxxxpost

― aspiring barkitect (silverfish), Tuesday, 7 August 2012 20:03 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Ah, but they still bought it! Singles performed well too.

also maybe this is an R&B radio vs pop radio thing but Janet was basically omnipresent and inescapable right up until the Superbowl, after which she basically disappeared without a trace until "All Nite (Don't Stop)" got some grudging video play because it's so awesome; she didn't reappear as an artist anyone cared about until "Feedback" and that only lasted for about three weeks

Did you know SUPPOSED FORMER INFATUATION JUNKIE went triple platinum?

Although thinking about it I guess Load never did have that THIS IS GREAT! IT REALLY IS! thing going for it before everyone collectively forgot about it.

i would definitely include River Of Dreams. All For You is Janet's if she has one - I like the hits but they do seem slight compared to previous albums.

Argument against River of Dreams: would anyone at the time have thought it likely that it was Joel's last record?

I would agree All For One would be Janet's, I just don't know if the situation actually works given the whole Superbowl fiasco

Had that not happened, we could be saying that Damita Jo is her New Jersey

xpost doesn't matter - River was a big hit album with practically no songs anyone gives a shit about and the follow-up was a huuge bomb. admittedly it was a classical album but hey i didn't put a gun to his head

ooh wait, would Sting's Brand New Day count?

or actually Sacred Love, which I forgot existed and has a song on it that won a Grammy?

I'm torn on The Eminem Show....it *should* be but I don't know, might just be a crappy followup record to a hit.

btw guys i'm listening to New Jersey on Spotify right now

yeah eminem show was followed by "lose yourself" so no career decline there

Hard-pressed to say that janet. was coasting on anything.

ooh wait, would Sting's Brand New Day count?

maybe that's the one I'm thinking of. the problem is that Mercury Calling went in between that and Ten Summoner's Tales and his commercial career definitely took a hit there. for a lot of his audience it maybe was The Dream of the Blue Turtles. I think Brand New Day had those moments that were good and the singles off it did well, but there was a feeling of "this is almost certainly going to be his last big single" there

I could buy Velvet Rope being her NJ, tho, in that it did seem to announce that her era was ending (despite the album being as interesting as anything before it).

I don't think Joel's classical album counts as a "followup" and I think the title song from River of Dreams remains pretty inescapable twenty years later.

yeah eminem show was followed by "lose yourself" so no career decline there

― da croupier, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 2:23 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

oops yeah forgot about 8 Mile....which is weird because in a way that movie and single is *actually* his high watermark in terms of dominating the culture, even moreso than albums that sold more...

i dunno if sting ever had a "everybody bought that and no one knows why" moment on his way to the "nobody cares but your mom" zone.

I can't decide if it's Kid A or the one that came after it.

In strictly commercial terms, Kid A would be the closest (unless it wasn't big enough to qualify) :http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiohead_discography

OK Computer was 3x platinum in the UK and Canada, 2x platinum in the US. Kid A went platinum in all three countries. Amnesiac and every subsequent album only went gold in the US (although Thief went platinum in the UK and they continued to maintain platinum sales in Canada).

I could buy Velvet Rope being her NJ, tho, in that it did seem to announce that her era was ending (despite the album being as interesting as anything before it).

yeah i don't think it passes the "ultimately feels a bit hollow" test

Radiohead's New Jersey is probably Hail to the Thief

it's not all sales or charts or singles guys....a "New Jersey" is a *feeling* too

Y E S

it's not all sales or charts or singles guys....a "New Jersey" is a *feeling* too

Well, yeah, in that sense, I don't think Radiohead has had a New Jersey. In Rainbows is their best work imo.

yeah, it's REAL HARD for a critical favorite to have one of these, otherwise they wouldn't be a critical favorite

Love this thread btw. New Jersey was the first album I ever got (that wasn't e.g. something taped off my Mum's friend's kid or something). IIRC, the local album rock station played the whole thing when it came out. Even then, I think I kind of felt that it was an event yet not quite the same as "You Give Love a Bad Name" and "Livin' on a Prayer".

trying to figure out which Garth Brooks record was his New Jersey...probably Sevens? 10x platinum, but when's the last time you heard "Longneck Bottle" (a #1) on the radio? Plus it's followed by a live album & the Chris Gaines thing.

yeah that sounds right

It's too soon to give a nod to Green Day's 21st Century Breakdown but if that new single is any sign of where they're headed, jesus

Is it that a NJ feels a little bit hollow or makes you feel that everything before it was also hollow and you just didn't notice it until NJ came along?

the former, I think. Latter seems overly personal an experience.

Something that was a little surprising for me was the realization that for some Pumpkins fans who were born in the mid-80s (I dated one), the band really starts with Mellon Collie and Adore is a completely beloved album.

To compare, I've totally known young Bon Jovi fans who got on the bus with "Bed of Roses" or "It's My Life" or some shit but I've never known someone whose interest was sparked by New Jersey and has no interest in Slippery When Wet.

man listening to New Jersey is weird....when I pulled it up on Spotify, the song titles "Born to Be My Baby" and "Living in Sin" didn't even register with me, but hearing them I realized I'd heard them a zillion times.

"Born to Be My Baby" was totally my favourite (when I was 9).

Since it was the first album I got, I know the damn thing inside out. Have really vivid memories of the liner notes, even.

"Living in Sin" is totally what would happen if Bruce Springsteen wrote "Father Figure" by George Michael

That was kind of brilliant!

was "In the Zone" Britney's New Jersey?

what is Tori Amos's New Jersey? The one where the pig is sucking on her boob?

Sevens and All For You are otm

what is Tori Amos's New Jersey? The one where the pig is sucking on her boob?

I dunno: that reocrd and its followup are beloved by her fans!

I get the logic for In The Zone but it could be argued that Blackout and Circus were still certainly "events" and she's still hitting #1 and making fans happy - plus ITZ has it's fair share of hits (i.e. "Toxic").

Tori Amos has never been in spitting distance of a huge event album

was "In the Zone" Britney's New Jersey?

― Elrond Hubbard (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 7 August 2012 20:47 (14 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

But after that album her music suddenly became amazing! A false start New Jersey

actually wow, never realized she hit double platinum - but she's still more of a megacult than a hitmaker

tori, i mean

yeah but hitting number one by then didn't really mean that much.

like using myself as an example, i think for many many people that don't really care either way, "Toxic" is the last Britney Spears song we know about.

(wrt britney)

How about Black Crowes "Southern Harmony & Musical Companion"?

The album debuted at number 1 on the Billboard 200. The effort spawned the singles "Remedy", "Sting Me", "Thorn in My Pride" and "Hotel Illness", all of which topped the Billboard Album Rock Tracks chart. "Remedy" and "Thorn in My Pride" also charted on the Hot 100 in 1992.

xpost so In The Zone is her New Jersey for older men, is what you're saying

"Toxic" is the last Britney Spears song we know about.

"Toxic" isn't even her biggest hit!

xp New Green Day album is split into three, two months apart, so it's hard to tell how that will pan out but 21CB has New Jersey written all over it - similar to the one before, only bigger and less good.

I'm no Chili Peppers fan but By the Way or Stadium Arcadium would seem to qualify.

21CB makes me wonder about bands who survive their New Jerseys and how many times they can do it. Like Green Day were in serious trouble but rebounded with American Idiot, now they seem a bit lost again. U2 are the only big band I can think of who rebounded twice (with Achtung Baby and All That You Can't Leave Behind) - three times seems impossible for anyone.

every generation of rock crits gets the new jersey they deserve

Gimme More
Womanizer
Hold It Against Me
Till The World Ends
I Wanna Go

^^^ all bigger than "Toxic" from albums that suddenly got her more respect

on the other hand it wouldn't surprise me if "Toxic" became her signature song.

I came here to say Mellon Collie, but it's already been said. I adore (pun unintended) that album.

I would agree All For One would be Janet's, I just don't know if the situation actually works given the whole Superbowl fiasco

Had that not happened, we could be saying that Damita Jo is her New Jersey

― keeping things contextual (DJP), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:12 PM (45 minutes ago) Bookmark

c'mon there's no song on Damita Jo that could be plausible as a #1 pop hit even w/o the super bowl

Thinking out loud here...is "How to Dismantle an Atomic Bomb" U2's?

pastsex/lovesounds

xp Absolutely. Maybe Pop too but I think that was perceived as a dud right away.

That might qualify!

xpost

Pop followed by their second best selling album of the Soundscan era.

c'mon there's no song on Damita Jo that could be plausible as a #1 pop hit even w/o the super bowl

she didn't need a #1, just a top 5; given some of her other hits, "Just A Little While" or "All Nite (Don't Stop)" could conceivably had gotten there if they'd gotten the same type of saturation push that "All For You" and "Someone To Call My Lover" received even considering that at least one is blatantly inferior to those two singles

yeah Atomic Bomb is good - they really tried hard to worm out another hit off that album after "vertigo" and failed

Listening to Rhythm Nation in the car a couple weeks ago with friends we wondered how Janet's sales and saturation could have so utterly collapsed after 2002 without the record company actively sabotaged her, as someone posted above.

*sabotaging

xp I'm unsure about the definition here. I was basing it on da croupier's "served as a stopgap before a major drop or left turn", with ATYCLB as the left turn (or right turn). If the only option is a major drop then by definition you can't come back from a New Jersey. But I like records that feel at the time like the beginning of the end but turn out not to be, I guess because they're an encouraging change from the usual narrative of irreversible decline.

yeah the problem with pop is that it wasn't a stopgap, it was a bomb

what about....

Bowie's Tonight

xpost so In The Zone is her New Jersey for older men, is what you're saying

― da croupier, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 2:54 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

waiting on a text from someone from a more desirable demographic who doesn't own any silkworm albums

True. Forget Pop. Tonight's a good one.

setting aside the fact that Damita Jo just isn't that great compared to the run of Janet albums preceding it starting with Control, you really can't downplay the effect that zero label support, limited radio play and a blanket ban by MTV on its videos was going to have on the performance of that album

add in the quality of the album and it's even grimmer

Celebrity Skin

Actually Bowie might be the only artist with two New Jerseys:

Tonight & Alladin Sane

um a lot of people like Aladdin Sane

yeah it's one of his best

I'm not sure the concept works before the 80s tbh

"jean genie", "panic in detroit", etc

what concept?

Presence definitely seems like a right answer: IIRC it went #1 on the strength of advance orders but despite the ILM love, when's the last time you heard "Candy Store Rock" or "Tea for One" (as opposed to "Kashmir" or even "Trampled Underfoot")? And then came that goofy pop record.

xposts!

right but it didn't signal a career decline, unless you mean "John Bonham choked on his own vomit soon after"

xp The concept being discussed in this here thread

I mean even if Aladdin Sane weren't good (which it is), the idea of an "event album" is one I associate with the 80s onwards. Bowie moved so fast from record to record, and didn't sell a huge amount, in the 70s that you don't get a hard-to-follow commercial high until Let's Dance.

right but it didn't signal a career decline, unless you mean "John Bonham choked on his own vomit soon after"

I do see In Through the Out Door as a decline but, yeah, their career as a band ended after one more album so fair point.

Boston - Don't Look Back?

i feel like i get this but i still dont know

what is pearl jam's new jersey? no code?

what about jay-z's? blueprint 2, black album and kingdom come all feel like they count for a variety of reasons

No Code was too big a dropoff in sales (and Vitalogy doesn't count because its hits had staying power), so i don't think Pearl Jam has one.

if Jay-Z has one it's Kingdom Come or American Gangster, but post-retirement thing makes that fit weird

if PJ has one it's probably No Code, but i feel like they pulled a Sting and managed to shift into emeritus status without a real "why do I own this?" moment - admittedly in part because few bought it.

bet No Code might have been a new jersey if the first single was "hail, hail" instead of "who you are"

Can we say Nickelback has had a New Jersey yet? Maybe Dark Horse?

yeah Dark Horse definitely

btw I've been listening to All For You this weekend and WAU @ "Son of a Gun", I used to go to BAT for this song and I have no fucking idea why

lol

Somebody said Genesis' We Can't Dance upthread and that's otm

MANIC PIXIE DREAM ALBUM THE THREAD

what?

more like "manic pixie dream troll"

yeah i retract alladin sane, good points

MANIC PIXIE DREAM ALBUM THE THREAD

― MUBU gai pan (Whiney G. Weingarten), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:37 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

huh?

The 257th in the Pearl Jam bootleg series totally qualifies here

haha

waht is springsteens new jersey

The River

Human Touch/Lucky Town was mentioned upthread and definitely fits

not sure Springsteen fits in this category. Human Touch-Lucky Town flopped and didn't produce any big singles either. He spent the rest of the nineties after "Streets of Philadelphia" going purposefully low key.

Nobody ever rated or bought those two records.

xpost

As Alfred said he doesn't really fit, though you rarely hear the singles from Tunnel Of Love anymore. But people still rate it highly.

I suppose we can debate how much his going low key dependend on a shrewd study of sales trends and market forces.

hey um can someone explain what whiney meant w/that post? even google doesn't come up with "manic pixie dream album"...there is some band called 1976 that had an album call manic pixie dream girl, then some articles about zooey deschnel?

xpost

i think tunnel of love is too much of a purposeful stylistic shift to be a new jersey

Tom Petty-Wildflowers

Several hits, but only one with true staying power. And She's The One was the follow-up.

hey um can someone explain what whiney meant w/that post?

I don't think anyone actually cares enough to decipher, tbh

Wildflowers sounds like a perfect fit but it IS widely loved (even by Petty himself).

Beastie Boys' To The 5 Boroughs?

xpost: i just assumed he's making fun of people who like the pixies. so yay for him.

"manic pixie dream girl" is a movie character archetype, coined by whiney's wu tang/simpsons stan bizarro world av club equivalent nathan rabin, which people forever argue over the definition and appropriate examples of.

I don't think there was any expectation that "Boroughs" would be huge by the time that came out.

lol xp

the only beasties that would even be close is Ill Communication, but i don't really think so

"manic pixie dream girl" is a movie character archetype, coined by whiney's wu tang/simpsons stan bizarro world av club equivalent nathan rabin, which people forever argue over the definition and appropriate examples of.

― some dude, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 4:00 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

ok so he doesn't like this thread or something?

apparently

hey whiney sorry you don't like this thread also have you considered the possibility that you've disappeared up your own butt?

manic pixie dream ilx

manic pixie dream journalism career

Is manic pixie dream really circling the drain?

Getting butthurt about a thread like this on a place like ILM is kind of a "New Jersey" if you think about it

or maybe a "Neither Fish Nor Flesh"

okay I was going to complain about everyone turning this into a thread about Whiney but ^^^ lol

http://forgifs.com/gallery/d/203755-1/Water-car-jerk-superhero.gif

Has anyone mentioned 'Be Here Now' yet?

aaanyway

Helmet's New Jersey is Betty, happy now?

Has anyone mentioned 'Be Here Now' yet?

yep

Shania Twain - Up!
George Michael - Listen Without Prejudice Vol. 1
Norah Jones - Feels Like Home

Be Here Now was instant letdown though, I'm minded to disqualify it (though in truth I've never listened to it, boy will my face be red if it turns out it was brilliant)

George Michael - Listen Without Prejudice Vol.

yes!

Listen Without Prejudice isn't a New Jersey surely

weren't the reviews of BHN kinda like "whoaaaa! wow!"?

praying for time is exactly what Sony did when Michael insisted on releasing this single first.

Eric Clapton's Pilgrim?

"Fastlove" and "Jesus to a Child" were US top 10 hits??????????

It sold even less than LWP though (a massive Euro hit though). And why not? Look at his scary goatee on the cover.

And George hasn't charted since

actually, looking at the sales stats and considering that ppl still adore "Freedom 90" but no one remembers or ever hears any of its, I'm tempted to say Older makes more sense

wondering why all the best examples of this are late 80s/early 90s. hmm

its HITS, I meant

Robbie Williams - Escapology

Eric Clapton's Pilgrim?

― Jeremy Spencer Slid in Class Today (C. Grisso/McCain), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 4:21 PM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I was going to say "no" but then I read this little jem on Wiki, Wild's review pushes it into the "New Jersey" realm

Reviews for Pilgrim were mixed upon release. Allmusic described the album as "bland", while Rolling Stone's David Wild gave it four out of five stars, stating, "Pilgrim is the work of someone who has learned in the hardest way imaginable that although he cannot change the world, he might be able to change himself."

do each of the solo Beatles have a New Jersey? wanna say yeah, Mind Dreams & Living in the Material World for John & George; not sure about the other two

Steve Winwood - Roll With It (1988)

2x platinum, title single at #1 for four weeks. Barely cracked the top 30 with his next album, and that was pretty much it. Seems like the singles from the three preceding albums are played more now.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_AdiGyfhHqDw/TO1StQf3EmI/AAAAAAAABVY/op6CEIxc1KE/s1600/Dire_Straits_On_Every_Street.jpg

xposts Pauls's might be Press To Play, and George's might be the second Wilburys lp.

Robbie Williams - Escapology
^^yes. & probably Take That - Progress.

I think Rihanna's Talk That Talk could be her New Jersey - although "We Found Love" was obv a colossus it feels all her popularity was leading to that point and a sense of fatigue has now started to set in (the album's other singles chart performance suggesting that). If not this record, then her next album will likely be her New Jersey.

Roll With It is a good pick.

a real "why do I own this?" moment

Wait, do Bon Jovi fans feel this way about New Jersey? I never had that impression. (My sister loves it, for instance.) I know it's considered inferior to its predecessor but I didn't think it was seen as an embarrassment? I saw them a couple of years ago and they still play songs from this album. I interpreted this concept as "similar but somewhat lesser album that was overhyped because of the success of the previous album". Bad seems like a very good answer to me.

I think Rihanna's Talk That Talk could be her New Jersey - although "We Found Love" was obv a colossus it feels all her popularity was leading to that point and a sense of fatigue has now started to set in (the album's other singles chart performance suggesting that).

well, "Where Have You Been" was also massive

kind of super pleased "Birthday Cake" charted NOWHERE

For my money, a New Jersey has little to do with subsequent quality drop-off - that is, I don't think it needs the "beginning of the end" clause in the definition...because then we're really just talking about "big albums that weren't as good as the previous one and were better than the ones that followed." What's interesting to me about the NJ phenomenon is the idea of an album that sells huge, spawns SEVERAL hits, and yet kind of disappears from the band's narrative, legacy, canonic list of concert staples, whatever. I actually think Storm Front is a perfect example of this - - "We Didn't Start The Fire" survives as a novelty, but when was the last time you heard #6 hit "I Go To Extremes"? I also buy Use Your Illusion - those records both have gone, what, six times platinum, with seven Mainstream Rock top-ten hits, including two number ones.... and I would venture to say that MR #7 "November Rain" is the only one still in regular rotation anywhere. Maybe "Knockin' On Heaven's Door" a bit? It's a monster hit album that just had no long-term constituency, no traction in people's hearts, and no hope of making the "best of decade" countdown circuit.

I've been banging on about radio formats a lot on ILX yesterday but I wonder how many New Jerseys are down to radio shifting out from under a band or a genre, or a new crop of kids coming up who aren't as interested in that artist or their sound, so all of a sudden you stop hearing the singles much earlier than you'd have expected to. The whole grunge/alt-rock takeover in the 90s has obviously been overstated as a musical revolution or whatever (as a million people have already pointed out) but it may have some weight just in terms of, all of a sudden, you would have been hearing way less of things like "Don't Cry," uh, "You Could Be Mine" (??), "Yesterdays" (no idea how this goes), "Living In Sin," "Lay Your Hands On Me"...

Pretty shaky theory, I'll admit. But basically I think this is about megahit records that people just didn't fall in love with, not necessarily records that people listened to and went "ehh, no, this sucks." I would second Use Your Illusion, Dangerous, and maybe We Can't Dance. A lot of these other ones are just meh albums or big commercial disappointments - - I mean, Fairweather Johnson was hardly a hit factory at the time!

Maybe DMB's Crash? Seven times platinum, four singles made the alternative Top 20, but, ehhh, not much enthusiasm for it these days, I think even from the Dave camp.

"Birthday Cake" was pretty much her biggest urban radio hit ever, got played around the clock on every R&B station. just not a pop hit like her other singles. (xpost)

Ah, Dr Casino's explanation makes sense to me.

ould the new Rick Ross be his New Jersey or was that the last one?

― Elrond Hubbard (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:04 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

not sure i quite framed it this succinctly, but that was my general thesis in this little piece i wrote for the voice http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2012/08/rick_ross_god_forgives_i_dont.php

Roll With It is SO New Jersey.

"Birthday Cake" was pretty much her biggest urban radio hit ever, got played around the clock on every R&B station. just not a pop hit like her other singles.

curse you, Wikipedia

Btw, I'm most of the way through NJ: did this mark the exact point where Bon Jovi became a country band? Maybe what hurt its is just that it came out before the emergence of 'new country' radio?

also, i wonder this gets a bit at raffles's question of why this seems like a late 80s/early 90s thing - - - I think to have a New Jersey you have to be in that post-Thriller, pre-download age when marketing was album-oriented and there was a general tendency to milk singles out of a record for a long while, so that you could rack up these like 5-6 single runs from albums that ultimately people didn't care that much about, and meanwhile even as the album's life cycle was playing out, the band's position in pop's hierarchy was slipping, or radio formats were shifting out from under them, not completely but enough that the album never built up a longer-term base.

Setting aside my little narrative, I'll say that Oops!...I Did It Again might be a borderline case; title track is huge enough that it's probably disqualified, but "Lucky" and "Stronger" haven't exactly been radio staples since, and frankly most DJs going for the throwback "remember junior high and Britney Spears?" play are going to go for "Baby One More Time," not "Oops!," even though I think technically it was a bigger hit at the time?

"Baby One More Time" was bigger.

I think to have a New Jersey you have to be in that post-Thriller, pre-download age when marketing was album-oriented and there was a general tendency to milk singles out of a record for a long while, so that you could rack up these like 5-6 single runs from albums that ultimately people didn't care that much about, and meanwhile even as the album's life cycle was playing out, the band's position in pop's hierarchy was slipping, or radio formats were shifting out from under them, not completely but enough that the album never built up a longer-term base.

ot

m

There's the 'event album' element as well xps - the album gets hyped in advance as being The Big One and it briefly seems like it is, but unlike its predecessor it leaves no trace.

There's the 'event album' element as well xps - the album gets hyped in advance as being The Big One and it briefly seems like it is, but unlike its predecessor it leaves no trace.

in that case I think Kanye's destined to have My Beautiful Dark Twisted Terrible Horrible No Good Very Bad Fantasy as his New Jersy

"Baby One More Time" was bigger.

Daha - you're totally right, just looked it up. Okay, I feel solid putting Oops! forward as a New Jersey within my narrowly-defined world where New Jersey status is divorced from the success or failure of albums that follow.

ould the new Rick Ross be his New Jersey or was that the last one?

― Elrond Hubbard (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:04 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark

not sure i quite framed it this succinctly, but that was my general thesis in this little piece i wrote for the voice http://blogs.villagevoice.com/music/2012/08/rick_ross_god_forgives_i_dont.php

― tauheed & cambria (J0rdan S.), Tuesday, August 7, 2012 5:47 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

lol should this be the thread where i nitpick that review

no

incidentally, the main impact of this whole discussion for me is having "Bad Medicine" stuck in my head, also i am convinced that Bon Jovi's best hits are the ones where I can mis-hear some element of the chorus as being about Batman, as in "Your love is like Batman is in" and of course "Shot through the heart, and you're to blame / You can't run...from Bat-Man."

it's not like it would turn into GOON BEEF TIME, you know j0rd is too cool for that (xpost)

i really thought Roman Reloaded was showing major signs of the rot setting in (slower sales, much less urban radio support than Nicki's first album), but "Starships" is actually kinda bigger than "Super Bass" at this point and it'll be years before it's clear whether she's on the decline or w/e.

Tha Carter IV is pretty New Jersey, though, bet Wayne's going to face some serious indifference pretty soon.

50 Cent's The Massacre is def the most New Jersey rap album of all time, though.

The W

INXS - X

Van Halen's For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge. Debuted at #1, marketed as a return to Halen's hard rock sound, promises of a big party ("dude, the title says FUCK!"), blah blah blah, but overall feels like a lumbering elephant. I think the only lasting memory of it is "Right Now" being used on occasion as a campaign song.

but i so love my baby's poundcake!

Duran Duran - Seven and the Ragged Tiger

I've been wrestling with 7&TRT all day. Fits a load of the criteria, but... just doesn't smell like a NJ to me.
Can't put my finger on why.

i was gonna say carter IV but wasn't sure

FUCK by Van Halen is def a New Jersey

Blur - The Great Escape

― Ismael Klata, Tuesday, 7 August 2012 18:44 (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

aye.

Hall and Oates - ooh yeah!

Big Bam Boom, maybe?

Those hits are still inescapable though

Bobby Brown - Bobby

i keep wanting to object to stuff because there's at least one song i hear plenty now, but i guess NJ has "Bad Medicine" so "Right Now" doesn't disqualify it

Maybe part of being a New Jersey is undergoing some kind of shift from "oh yeah, this thing is a sales juggernaut, racking up the hits!" to a perception of "one big hit and then some other stuff." And again I think this relates a lot to subsequent decisions about what stuff gets long-term airplay, and on what stations. If there's no one out there really convinced that the four or five top-twenty but not #1 singles, they'll kind of disappear from the popular imagination to the point where you scan the back of the sleeve in the used bin and go "hrm, I only recognize one of these songs on here" even though the others all had a substantial short-term radio presence. I mean, do even dentist's offices play "I Go To Extremes" at this point? Why would you, when you've got "She's Always A Woman," "The Longest Time," and so on?

btw I hope Bon Jovi is grateful, this thread is probably the most attention New Jersey has had since 1989 or so...

er, "really convinced that the four or five top-twenty-but-not-#1-singles belong in the rotation"

i can hum "I Go To Extremes" way more readily than "She's Always A Woman"

also, i feel like there should be some sort of thread-ring or meta-thread that connects all these thoughts, but this all grows, for me, out of things getting discussed on Modern Rock #1 Hits of 1999 , re: bands such as Matchbox 20 whose long strings of big, big hits have been cherry-picked down to one or two that fit the sonic profile of contemporary radio formats, while things like "Push," "3 AM," and "The Real World" have vanished despite being once their biggest, most inescapable songs.

i wrote a thing a while back that touched on how a lot of alt-rock records that crossed over to pop have mostly vanished from rock playlists -- like Alanis and Matchbox 20's big breakthroughs had tons of alt-rock hits but now you only hear "You Oughta Know" from the former and nothing from the latter on those stations

That'd be a great thread in itself, Doctor!

Loads of conflict between 'hits at the time' and 'songs perceived as hits now.'
Girls on Film (USA - didn't chart) vs Union of the Snake (#3, but has lost its status), etc...

The Eminem Show

some dude - Yeah, your posts on that same thread add a lot to this picture for me. Maybe a different topic than New Jersey albums but it's an interesting phenomenon.

Sort of the inverse of songs that weren't a bands biggest hit, but have gone on to be their legacy song and biggest iTunes seller

ha yes a retroactive one-hit wonder

lol should this be the thread where i nitpick that review

― some dude, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 5:58 PM (55 minutes ago) Bookmark

sure!

or not, whatever. you can dig up a ross thread if you want or go to the goon thread.

This literally has me in tears right now at my desk:

incidentally, the main impact of this whole discussion for me is having "Bad Medicine" stuck in my head, also i am convinced that Bon Jovi's best hits are the ones where I can mis-hear some element of the chorus as being about Batman, as in "Your love is like Batman is in" and of course "Shot through the heart, and you're to blame / You can't run...from Bat-Man."

― Doctor Casino, Tuesday, August 7, 2012 3:01 PM (48 minutes ago)

Snoop Doggy Dogg- The Doggfather

i think my gripe was just 'fan projects an arc onto artist that does the same thing the same way over and over with mildly varying results' so kinda the opposite of this thread ha (xpost)

Storm Front belongs in this conversation but I gotta say I've heard "I Go To Extremes" more often in the last twenty years than "We Didn't Start The Fire." It's like no one cares about the latter after teachers exhausted our patience about its educational worth.

many xposts

The other thing Van Hagar's "Right Now" is remembered for:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4c_ZRzC2SZM

and Crystal Gravy!

re: "I Go To Extremes," you guys... may be right... wonder if this is regional or something, I really have probably heard "I Go To Extremes" a half-dozen times in my whole life, and a couple of those were me seeking it out to go "how does that song go again?"

Incredibly brilliant thread.

Kinks - Lola v Powerman and the Money-go-round

Also (tangential to this thread), recently the AV Club ran a piece about 'dead zones', i.e. artists having a period that was at the time regarded as shithouse but actually wasn't. So very otm.

(forgive bad english, sick)

speaking of, too bad Bad English doesn't apply

I loaded "I Go to Extremes" on Youtube. I've never heard this before in my life.

#3 in Canada!

Admittedly, it does seem like the sort of thing I might have heard in a store or dentist's office without paying attention.

back to alterna-land:

Sonic Youth- Dirty. Came on the heels of critical fave Daydream Nation and major label debut Goo--got biggest push of their career, was their biggest seller, but I doubt people rate it as highly as their previous albums now, and the stuff that came immediately after definitely felt past-prime.

I bet Modern Rock has a lot of these. Chocolate Starfish? Creed probably has one.

The concept doesn't really work for bands that are more cultish in the first place. Besides, in my anecdotal experience, Dirty is a favourite among people my age who aren't SY devotees or indie nerds.

that's crazy

'huge artist' releasing 'huge event album' is a pretty rare thing tbh, especially lately

sonic youth were not huge by any means

New Jerseys are my bread + butter.

Some more traits of NJs:

- It's a double album or follows a double album (Clash wouldn't count because of Combat Rock. Also, I was 10 when Mellon Collie came out and I know for sure that's not a NJ. I still hear all of the singles more than one should for a NJ)

- One or more of the follow-up singles has some sort of gimmick/promotional angle to it (like the music video is tied-in to a contest/MTV movie or something)

Britney's Oops! sold less and the hits weren't as big, but I don't think it counts. It came out early 2000 (right when Teen Pop as a whole cultural thing hit critical mass with No Strings Attached) -- The genre's wave was so huge that it feels like part of the Baby era.

The first teen pop certified NJ that comes to mind is Backstreet Boys - Black & Blue. That was destined for NJ status as soon as one of BSB said it would break NSYNC's sales record.

Green Day at this point might have two NJs - Insomniac (debatable because some ppl saw it as a rush job when it came out) and 21CBD

yeah Backstreet and Green Day picks otm

Blink 182's Take Off Your Pants & Jacket

Modest Mouse's "Good News For People Who Love Bad News" really feels like this for me in the non-stadium filling band category.

that was their big platinum breakthrough, though! the one after that would make way more sense. i heard "Dashboard" on the radio TWICE last week, which was really odd considering how quickly it disappeared after it was initially a hit.

Diamonds and Pearls
True Colors
The Fat of the Land
Supposed Former Infatuation Junkie

I somehow believe that Echo & The Bunnymen's self-titled belongs here, but despite the wall-to-wall airplay of "Lips Like Sugar" on KROQ out here I'm not sure the sales really qualify it for NJ status.

The Fat of the Land is a good inclusion, though in that case the momentum it coasted on was from its own (by that point quite old) early singles.

To me The Chemical Bros' Surrender feels a bit like a New Jersey album but it's still very highly rated by lots of people, so maybe not.

I want to say The Cranberries' To The Faithful Departed, but (for example) even though it went 2x platinum in the US that was down from a 7x platinum performance for their second album, so it looks like most people realised straightaway that the shine had come off.

50 Cent - The Massacre

Anybody heard any singles from this record lately? Interscope pushed (and shoved) it through one of the earliest examples of the preplanned rerelease to 5x Platinum, and it spawned four top 10 singles, but far as I can remember no one ever loved it even when it was new.

The Massacre is otm

The Caution Horses
Bang!
Go Bang!
Internationalists

vespertine

The Fat of the Land is a good inclusion, though in that case the momentum it coasted on was from its own (by that point quite old) early singles.

this is getting more and more common with rap/R&B albums that come out 1-3 years after the biggest advance single

As far as Sonic Youth is concerned, this phenomenon seems to fit what I was thinking about Washing Machine the other day (I'd also begrudgingly accept that Experimental Jet Set fits). In spirit if not in actuality.

Some other nominees:

Richard Marx - Rush Street (his precipitous plummet from the charts has always baffled me somewhat)
The Monkees - Pisces, Aquarius, Capricorn & Jones Ltd. (I think? There might be an argument for Headquarters, though.)
Vanessa Williams - The Comfort Zone (...maaaaaybe?)

'huge artist' releasing 'huge event album'

y'all are turning this into whichever album of some artist's that sold less than the one before it

indoor living was totally superchunk's new jersey amirite

Black and Blue strikes me as a pretty good pick:

Black & Blue debuted at number-one on the Billboard 200 after selling 1.6 million copies in its first week at retail in the US. The feat made the them the first act in history to achieve sales more than 1 million copies in the first week with back-to-back releases. The set has moved more than 5.4 million copies in the U.S. to date, according to Nielsen SoundScan.[17][18] Internationally, the album recorded the best sales in a week for an album in history by selling over 5 million copies in its first week of sales.[4][5] As of 2007, the album has sold 24 million copies worldwide.[6]

And it's like, wow! And then you look at the singles and just - "The Call"? "More Than That"? "Shape of My Heart"? Couldn't hum 'em with a gun to my head. (None of those charted spectacularly even at the time, but damn, those album sales.)

Electric Light Orchestra - Discovery

There's a couple of great songs plus a lot of soppy wet ballads and their most embarrassing track, "The Diary of Horace Wimp." It really felt like Jeff Lynne needed a vacation at that point (which turned out to be Xanadu). Maybe none of the followup albums (Time, Secret Messages, Balance of Power had anything to top "Don't Bring Me Down," but I think they all hold together better than Discovery.

Skimming 180+ posts, has anyone said Autoamerican?

― David Allan Cow (Dan Peterson), Tuesday, 7 August 2012 18:45 (Yesterday)

Came here to post that. It's the perfect example of an album that I loved at the time, but in hindsight it's really weak.

spost "Shape of my Heart" and "The Call" are actually two of my favourite BSB singles though ("Shape of my Heart" is my absolute fave in fact).

The Call is probably the BSBs like, 3rd best song. But yeah that album counts

Tears for Fears, Seeds of Love

The Massacre is composed entirely of good album tracks and terrible singles.

Bone Thugs N Harmony's The Art Of War went 4x platinum but I haven't heard "Look Into My Eyes" or "If I Could Teach The World" since 97.

haha at this video, I sometimes forget how ambitious every rap video in the late 90s was

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-DgZrIkw_Q

This song makes "The Crossroads" sound as hard as "Thuggish Ruggish Bone".

Not sure if it's been mentioned and it's an awful example but "Life" by Simply Red might fit the criteria. Followup to "Stars", a huge album with loads of singles on it, but "Life" had "Fairground" and er... Can't remember any others. But everyone (in the uk anyway) bought it. It's a charity shop regular now.

Suede-Head Music. Remember Virgin changed the name of their store to Head music the day it came out, there are now a million copies for sale on Amazon. I think their career was over when She's In Fashion didn't become the huge hit they were expecting.

The Corrs-In Blue. They were the biggest band in the UK in 98/99 and the first single from this album went straight to number one in 2000 but after that people just suddenly lost interest and they never recovered.

talking heads - little creatures

Nirvana - In Utero

Virtually every album that follows a smash ends up being a disappointment. Some then get reappraised
In 1980, Tusk would have been all over this thread.
In 1967, it would have been Smiley Smile.

Be Here Now definitely the best example in UK rock in the past 20 years. Though I like the upthread proposition of Welcome to the Pleasure Dome, since it was a victory lap for the singles, and it was staggeringly overblown and hollow and pompous. I remember some kid at our school writing a poem in anticipation for the photocopied school mag. "Then with joy I began to bubble/ It was going to be a double!" (I was not the poet; I just have a good memory.)

David Gray - A New Day at Midnight, apparently went quarduple platinum but I can't for the life of me remember how either of the singles go.

Have Queen ever had a NJ?

Queen's might have been "The Game", but then they came back with "The Works" a few years later and found a new audience, so maybe not.

Virtually every album that follows a smash ends up being a disappointment. Some then get reappraised

most, maybe, but not virtually every. sometimes the follow-up to a 1999 is a Purple Rain -- see artists who had a long streak of every album selling more than the last

Yeah, but then "Diamonds and Pearls" seems one of this.

oh i'm not saying Prince DOESN'T have one, just that he had quite a few smash hits before any real disappointment

Pet Shop Boys - Very

With Prince it might even be Lovesexy, but if not it's definitely Diamonds & Pearls.

If it's the big selling album that signals the end of the Imperial Phase then with REM it's Monster rather than Automatic or New Adventures.

Sometimes there's a plateauing album that might qualify - thinking of something like Bossanova here.

With Depeche Mode it's definitely 'Songs of Faith & Devotion'. Throw 'Republic' by New Order in there as well.

Just checked "everyhit", "Come" was Prince's last number one album (Uk).

Queen's is Hot Space, surely? Following The Game's big-hit diversification with diversification that alienated everyone

Throw 'Republic' by New Order in there as well.

yep

Pet Shop Boys - Very

this certainly doesn't sound hollow. It's many fans and critics' favorite record!

I'm sort of pinpointing that as the time they started to feel anachronistic.

hmmm...again, not the critical consensus. It's certainly true about Bilingual.

If Wile E. Coyote ever releases an album it'll be a New Jersey

xp That's not how Very seemed then or now. It outperformed Behaviour, and Go West is the PSBs hit for people who don't pay any attention to the PSBs.

Songs of Faith and Devotion for sure. All the Gahan drama behind the scenes added to the sense that the wheels were about to come off.

One of my favourite Wikipedia features BTW is the discography page that shows the sales. They're often counterintuitive - Depeche Mode, for example, have never had a platinum album in the UK - and you really get to see the size of the plunge after a really big album.