Joy Division vs New Order

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Joy Division all the way!

― David Allen, Tuesday, 5 November 2002 19:50 (twenty-one years ago) link

New Order. "Temptation" is the one constant in any top ten singles ever I've done in my mind since 1982.

― Tag, Tuesday, 5 November 2002 19:58 (twenty-one years ago) link

Taking Sides: New Order v. Joy Division

Joy Division vs. New Order

i hate when people do that, actually. the links to prior discussions of the same topics. it seems not right somehow.

― d k (d k), Tuesday, 5 November 2002 20:09 (twenty-one years ago) link

I was listening to Power, Corruption & Lies today and it seems to me that, at least for part of a verse of "Blue Monday," Bernie's actually aping/slightly poking at Ian Curtis's vocal style. Pretty funny, if you ask me.

They're both great.

― hstencil, Tuesday, 5 November 2002 20:19 (twenty-one years ago) link

I know I'm stepping on a lot of toes here, but I must say that I think Joy Division is quite overrated. My overall impression from listening to their box set several times is that their entire musical output is defined by a certain overwrought gloom and doom (Yeah, I know, it was ostensibly 'real' pain, but still)... Anyway, I can't figure why people like them so much.

New Order is hopeful, nostalgic, and bright-- and I like their music better. What can I say?

― rpk (Rahul Kamath), Tuesday, 5 November 2002 20:30 (twenty-one years ago) link

Heathen.

― dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 5 November 2002 20:33 (twenty-one years ago) link

I prefer the earlier Warsaw-era Joy Division material as far as JD goes. But when matched side by side with New Order, that stuff may as well have come from a different band altogether.

So, there is no winner.

― paul cox (paul cox), Tuesday, 5 November 2002 20:44 (twenty-one years ago) link

make mine new order.

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Tuesday, 5 November 2002 20:56 (twenty-one years ago) link

Love them both. I soured on New Order after Brotherhood, and disparaged them in relation to JD. But I've just recently come around to enjoying Technique, and I no longer think of the two in vs. terms. And I think New Order's music is very sad, too.

― Curt (cgould), Tuesday, 5 November 2002 21:09 (twenty-one years ago) link

actually make mine "temptation", "regret" and "bizarre love triangle" and then leave me alone.

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Tuesday, 5 November 2002 21:15 (twenty-one years ago) link

NO were grebt until Blue Monday, and everything after that was shite.

They would have 10 times more respect if Movement had not been butchered by Martin Hannet.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Tuesday, 5 November 2002 22:02 (twenty-one years ago) link

"Butchered"???? That's their best album! (Followed closely by _Technique_ and _Get Ready_, of course. Am I the only person who thinks _PC&L_, _Low-Life_ and _Brotherhood_ are extremely overrated?)

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 5 November 2002 22:27 (twenty-one years ago) link

The only person I know of.

― paul cox (paul cox), Tuesday, 5 November 2002 22:30 (twenty-one years ago) link

do you reckon Joy Division would have turned into New Order anyway if Ian Curtis hadn't died?

― DV (dirtyvicar), Tuesday, 5 November 2002 22:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

i'm on the fence... but only because "Ceremony" is the only song (done by both bands) that's ever meant anything to me...

of the three versions released:

joy division outtake
new order 7" (4:34)
new order 12" (4:22)

i prefer the 7" version. gimme a medal.

― gygax!, Tuesday, 5 November 2002 22:35 (twenty-one years ago) link

A good question. I think the directional change that birthed the sound of New Order was Sumner's vision. Whether or not Curtis would have shared time in the spotlight with Sumner is the real question.

― paul cox (paul cox), Tuesday, 5 November 2002 22:36 (twenty-one years ago) link

Hmm, I overstated somewhat; I like _PC&L_ and there are songs on _Low-Life_ that I adore, but as albums none of those three hold together. Furthermore, there are songs on all three which are New Order touchstone songs that just leave me cold ("Your Silent Face" leaps to mind; I spent several years trying to convince myself that the fact that he said "Piss off!" in the lyrics made the song interesting before I realized how deeply I was rationalizing).

_Movement_, _Technique_ and _Get Ready_ are the only New Order albums that I unreservedly love. Those three aside, they've been the epitome of the singles band to me.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 5 November 2002 22:43 (twenty-one years ago) link

"Ceremony" is the only "New Order" song I like. (I think I said that on one of the other threads.)

― Rockist Scientist, Wednesday, 6 November 2002 00:00 (twenty-one years ago) link

Dan,

Check out The Taras Chevchenko bootleg that just got issued on dvd. It is a NYC performance from 1981 that covers Movement and the first few singles. When you hear the difference, you will understand what I mean. Movement had great songs, but the production of the album totally stripped all the life away from them.

― Mike Taylor (mjt), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 03:11 (twenty-one years ago) link

Good God. I can't even imagine, because those songs are fantastic as they are on _Movement_.

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 03:50 (twenty-one years ago) link

The 'what if' question is a good one. If there'd been a power struggle over 'musical direction' and IC had left to 'go solo' as a 'genuine artist' and the others had 'gone pop' with their dance direction, and the result was that IC died years later after a slow decline and NO had a string of hits, would we now feel quite different about both of them?

Or would IC have embraced the NY dance scene too and conquered his demons with E?

As for the rest, here's my two pennorth, for what it's worth: I think it's a non-question, partly because the two are so different and so great (though being at the end of the day more Mahler than Schubert I'll go for JD myself) - what's remarkable is that the two bands are formed from the same musicians, and that NO got something quite new and quite different together after having their lead vocalist commit suicide. I can't get over the respect and awe I feel for that as a creative/emotional achievemtn.

But I can't understand those who hold up Movement - it's not a bad album, and the session/live versions are indeed even better, but it's plainly neither JD nor NO, a band still finding their way between the two. The best of NO is what happened when they surrendered to the black/funk thing.

― jon (jon), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 08:52 (twenty-one years ago) link

I think Movement is a masterpiece with some superb production ideas which neither Hannett nor anyone else has ever followed up.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 10:30 (twenty-one years ago) link

"I.C.B.", "The Him", "Senses", and "Doubts Even Here" are genius on that album. The cathedral synths of "Doubts Even Here" offset by the jangly guitar is especially amazing. Damn, now I have to find my copy of that album...

― Dan Perry (Dan Perry), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 14:37 (twenty-one years ago) link

Yes, the Doubts Even Here bit you mention is the album's highlight, and partly presages NOs ability to simply create an extraordinary NOISE. ICB though is amazing on the Peel session and just a bit dead on the album. Likewise Dreams Never End - a lovely song.

As I said, it's a good album - extraordinary under the circumstances - but a little airless/dead in the stuio and also, to me, let down by some attempts at profundity that are a little hamfisted without IC's input (The Him, anyone?).

Dr C, that's an interesting suggestion. What do you mean?

― jon (jon), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:34 (twenty-one years ago) link

I used to hate the production, Jon - I suppose I was looking for a 'Closer' part 2 or whatever.. But I was wrong - lots of this is amazing - brittle drums on Truth (I think), fizzing electronics and wierd phasing which really works. I'll have a listen tonight if I have time and try and describe it better. I think the Peel sessions are good, but more conventional and flat.

― Dr. C (Dr. C), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 15:54 (twenty-one years ago) link

New Order's period of finding their way, from the "Ceremony" single through Power, Corruption and Lies was an absolute thrill to follow. I still get that feeling of new possibilities listening to Movement, although I can see how it could sound callow to someone more attached to what New Order arrived at.

I think when New Order albums "hold together", they can be kind of boring. I like the way Power, Corruption and Lies doesn't hold together. I'm also put off by the vocal on "Your Silent Face", but its instrumental parts are utter genius. Also, I thought Brotherhood was generally agreed to be crap, so I wouldn't call it overrated.

This thread has become "TS: New Order vs New Order".

― Curt (cgould), Wednesday, 6 November 2002 16:55 (twenty-one years ago) link

i am with dan and dr.c on this one. movement is my favourite no album though it isn't really a no album. i find it is one of the most touching albums ever made. sumner tries to sing like curtis and writes lyrics which could have been curtis's to commemorate curtis's death. and no are sad in all their shallowness. and get ready was a return to form. and technique was great as well. and low-life is rubbish. the songs are crap and the production is even crappier. and no are a singles band except for movement.

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Monday, 11 November 2002 00:10 (twenty-one years ago) link

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