Joy Division vs. New Order

But the answer to your question depends on the old pop v rock debate. Which is better, music that stimulates the feet and the brain equally while making a beautiful noise? or music that addresses the Big Questions of Life and Death, Purging the Soul With Its Deepness? Niether, of course, and those guys have done the best of both.

New Order: schubert - pop: dance: bad singing and lyrics: but if the beauty of pure noise is your bag, their 12inchers are as good as anything in existence

Joy Division: beethoven - rock: art ... in 100 years time, when 'Rock' is as hoary as Classical and Jazz, those two albums will be among the handful of musical creations of the late twentieth century still pored over by those who want profundity, deep emotion, etc with their art. Sounds pretentious, not meant to be.

Doubts Even Here = Classic

All I know is I want to die while the brilliance of Martin Hannett shows on "Closer". I want to die by that music. Please. Look I'll pull out Unknown Pleasures in a minute here but "Decades" is nothing at all to sneer at. Please let me lie down in the studio while Martin Hannett is at the soundboard, and I'll be happy forever, please. Please.

Yeah that is fucking amazing dude. I don't even CARE about New Order when that shit is playing.

Just kidding, I just want to throw myself into the middle of this.

Dammit, I want to be too drunk to go to work tomorrow morning.

as for new order, i think i generally prefer the singles. please help me to like power, corruption and lies. i've listened to it only a handful of times ever and can't think of a reason to listen to it again. what should i be listening for?

You caught me at a bad time
So why don't you piss off?

(PS: The non-singles on Low-Life except for "Face Up" are fucking incredible.)

Icidentally, whether you agree or not that NO have made a lot better music than JD (I don't), you'd have to say that they've made a lot worse music, too.

seriously, though: love and adore new order as i do, joy division is pretty much musical perfection, and the older i get the more i realise that.

I think my main problem about JD is that I cannot mention one Joy Division track that I really like. They are kind of overrated, particularly compared to better contemporaries such as The Cure and Magazine.

-- Charlie Howard (charlieflie...), September 12th, 2006.

Actually, speaking as someone who still claims New Order are their favourite band, I totally respect this position. Despite a few insanely good tracks I've always felt a bit uneasy about praising PCL as a whole. Seems they were just noodling about too much sometimes, the album has ups and downs, not really focused. (I mean this as no offense to ILMer Noodle Vague) So it's nice to hear someone express that, since I've not yet found the courage to admit it. And before I get attacked by PCL loving wolves I do understand the brilliance of Leave Me Alone, 586, The Village & of course Age Of Consent, but the rest...they were just kindof coasting. Not that it's BAD, but just not up to standards. You Silent Face doesn't do a whole lot for me anymore, but it still has a special place in my heart as the first song I remember hearing by them and thinking "I'm going to like anything else this band does" which was nearly true. ETC.

Anyway...

Icidentally, whether you agree or not that NO have made a lot better music than JD (I don't), you'd have to say that they've made a lot worse music, too.

-- Si.C@rter (carter.si@gmale.com), September 12th, 2006.

This is also a terribly good point which I'm at a loss as to how to address. The new Ian Curtis book paints him (Ian) as the maverick, the Throbbing Gristle fan, the one which would have steered them into much less commercial waters according to Paul Morley. I simply can't add anything more about this. We'll never know.

I would like to say upon reading further in this thread, though, that New Order have a rather unfair advantage in years. Who the hell KNOWS if Ian had lived and Joy Division had stayed together all this time if they wouldn't have put out just as much crap as New Order or more? Fuck people, we really don't know that for sure. You can't compare a few years to many years and come out ahead. It's not a fair comparison.

Grimly is correct that JD looks better and better all the time in the scheme of things. I'm the first to admit that. In fact, I really don't understand it. It's not just reliving my adolescence now that draws me to their records, it's the intricacies of Hannett's sound. I didn't know when I was a wee teenager that Hannett had so much to do with their sound, but I've heard his other records and I am beginning to unravel the subtle genius of Hannett. It all sounds different to me now than it did then, even Closer, which I couldn't listen to for years until now, just too painful you know? I mean I just couldn't listen to it, but I can now. And that's a victory for me. Really it is. Just to hear Hannett's work. And I daresay Closer is his best work. But I'll probably change my mind in a few months.

Gillian Gilbert was Ian Curtis in drag? I love this band!

-- Ned Raggett (ne...), September 13th, 2006.

And low and behold, Ned wins. I won't say all your jokes are good, Ned, but when you get it right, you really get it right. Cheers.

Ugh. Geir says The Cure and Magazine are better. Well...I pulled out Faith the other night, you see. And it was what I wanted to hear, there was a reason I pulled it out, but aside from a few tracks I thought "okay, but I've heard this enough times" Can't say that about JD. They continue to fascinate. Maybe not all their songs but most.

Magazine I feel almost like a virgin about. Never been able to get into them as much I would like. Don't hate them at all, but never felt firey and passionate about them. But I did buy their Hannett produced LP "The Correct Use Of Soap" some months ago and I did quite enjoy it. So I will give that another go because of you, and I appreciate the suggestion. Because I've got all this vinyl laying about and know I need to get to my recently bought vinyl records properly.

All is Hannett for me, sorry. No actually I won't apologize. I don't care about you lot, Tony Wilson and Vini Reilly know he was a genius among others. So if you don't care about him fuck you. Take your JD records home to mummy and surrender them.

thus, joy division. i still kick myself for blowing money on that.

heheh. whereas wilson's take on it has always been "they'd have been bigger than U2". useful things, dead rock stars, when you've got a singular point of view to peddle.