Taking Sides: New Order v. Joy Division

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Joy Division are pretty good, but New Order are better, because they manage to be both miserable and funky at the same time.

― The Dirty Vicar, Tuesday, 16 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Two sides of the same coin to me. That New Order incorporates a more diverse range of influences is fairly clear just by listening to them - - time will have a tendency to do that, and the bandmembers themselves have talked about listening to newer and different things after Ian Curtis' death. But I value both too highly and too personally to be asked to come up with a distinction between the two as to which is better.

― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 16 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Held at gunpoint, I'd say New Order... only because I couldn't deal with listening to Joy Division after being held at gunpoint.

― Brian MacDonald, Tuesday, 16 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I SO wish you could all hear my version of the entire album CLOSeR

― Mike Hanle y, Tuesday, 16 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

so do i hanle y, so do i.

― jess, Tuesday, 16 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

As Ned said - same band. Can't split 'em. Best ever, etc etc....

But New Order 'funky'? Uh?

― Dr. C, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I like New Order more.

― Tom, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Same band really, especially now New Order play Joy Division stuff live, so choosing between them is difficult. It's not even like there is a sharp dividing line between the sound of the two bands, the early NO stuff being a logical progression from the late JD stuff but with a different vocalist. Having said all that, at this precise moment in time I'd take New Order because I don't think I could cope with never hearing Temptation again whilst I could probably just about get by without Transmission.

― Richard Tunnicliffe, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

...But New Order recorded some awfully crappy disco - don't shoot me for this, but even Bizarre Love Triangle was pretty lame.

Joy Division never recorded anything crappy ever. You should hear their version of "Louie Louie" - whoah.

― Dave225, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Speaking in terms of wine and grapes. It is concentration vs. dilution.

Joy Division is a very concentrated almost black wine smelling black currants and pressed from around 40-50 very ripe grapes (songs) of an amazing quality which have been hand-picked.
New Order is like a light sparkling wine made of much more grapes (100+) with most of them still unripe. A few are very sweet nevertheless. The bouquet is full of lemons. Especially the electronic production methods do not add to the longevity of this wine. In short New Order's music is more fun but short-lived whereas Joy Division is stronger and for the cave. You won't regret tasting either of these wines. Both should be consumed in moderation.

Some more thoughts on JD/NO in a recent post tomy music blog.

― alex in mainhattan, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Sorry, the exact post url is here.

― alex in mainhattan, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

The 12" of Bizarre Love Triangle sewed my heart up once when I'd had it broken and for that it is the greatest eight minutes in the history of recorded sound.

In more simplistic times I'd have said that New Order were better than Joy Division because disco was better than punk. But NO are punk and JD are disco, so that scotches that.

― Tom, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

"In more simplistic times I'd have said that New Order were better than Joy Division because disco was better than punk. But NO are punk and JD are disco, so that scotches that."

hmmm...your ideas are intriguing to me and i wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

― jess, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I should have perhaps put a couple of "also"s into that sentence.

― Tom, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

i have always exhibited a violent antipathy towards new order, but ONLY after discovering joy division as a moody teen. (new order songs driving to school are one of my fondest memories - if i admit it, which i won't - of "modern rock" radio. [you know, what they called it before 'alternative.']) reading tom and others...uh...defense (?) of them lately, i may have to just give in and go back. (it's all based on a fear that i might actually like them more than jd.)

― jess, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Well, the new album probably wouldn't be a great place to start.

― Nicole, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Agreed. It's OK, but not up there with past efforts. Instead, go and get yourself a copy of Substance forthwith.

― Richard Tunnicliffe, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Get Ready is their best album. The first one I can listen to from the beginning to the end. No crap track. Very consistent. Admitted there is no Bizarre Love Triangle. But the album is quite close to the Joy Division sound. Anyways Substance is a collection of singles and maxis and does not count as an album.

― alex in mainhattan, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I didn't say it was a proper album! Anyhow, isn't a singles compilation the best place to start with a band like New Order who've put out so many classic singles?

― Richard Tunnicliffe, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Improper albums are generally much better - oh for the discipline of the single form!

― Tom, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Subtance probably is the best place to start, it matters not that it's a compilation.

― Nicole, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Here you are absolutely right Richard. The best way to start with NO is with a best of. They are a singles band. And that was always my problem with them as I prefer album bands. Most singles bands are for teenager girls. I know the Freaky Trigger staff has a different opinion but that is mine anyways.

― alex in mainhattan, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Styles of pop music developed primarily through the single: rock and roll, soul, doo-wop, reggae, ska, hip-hop until the late 80s, disco, house, techno, punk, garage (either version!), drum and bass, pop, and most styles deriving from the aforementioned.

Styles of pop music developed primarily through the album: rock after circa 1964, post-rock, probably metal.

Half-and-half: hip-hop since the late 80s, indie.

― Tom, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

GET OUT OF MY BRAIN. We just had this conversation last night at Caprice, Dirty Vicar are you really Justin? I'm frightened now. I was the lone Joy Division adherent, because they have more songs I like than New Order do. The best part of the argument was that Justin hates pop music in general, so I got to point out that he's wrong about pop because New Order are the pop Joy Division, and I was smug.

― Ally, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Score draw.

Joy Division for playing air guitar to esp dead souls. New Order for playing air bass to.

― Billy Dods, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Best place to start = my essay on all JD/NO singles in wire years ago heh heh. Tom sez: totally incomprehensible were you on crack mark, but how can this be when i am so lucid elsetimes? (Not surely not that I was also editor of my own copy!?)

― mark s, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

album LP and album CD not the same thing ps, since (i) sides (ii) length

― mark s, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

This is true but album CD and album LP would be closer on a dendrogram than either and single, still.

I wish I still had that Wire. Did I mention though Mark that I was reading it in a pub?

― Tom, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I wish I'd bought it in the first place. Curse my lack of subscription!

― Richard Tunnicliffe, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

mark search your brain and cough up an issue number and i will give you pokemon toys.

― jess, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I shall xerox scan and post if i remember to bring it work: then the IL massif can pick my long-ago self apart pitchfork-style

top of my head 116, 117 or 118 jess

― mark s, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

then the IL massif can pick my long-ago self apart pitchfork-style

Now there's a thread idea. I suggest everyone who was on a.m.a. in 1995 use the revived newsgroup archives on google to find an old ramble of their own and post it for the merriment of others.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

You should hear their version of "Louie Louie."

Wait, I'm confused: are you just quoting Curtis ("You should hear our version of 'Louie Louie'"), or have you actually heard their version of "Louie Louie?"

This is a dumb question, I know.

― Nitsuh, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Just quoting.

I don't think they ever did Louie Louie.

― Dave225, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

but they did "sister ray" which is in the same ballpark...

― fritz, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Cool. Just checking.

― Nitsuh, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

That's the connection, Fritz -- it's at the end of the version of "Sister Ray" on Still that Ian says: "Thanks -- you should hear our version of 'Louie Louie.'" Full circle.

― Nitsuh, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

For anyone who loves JOY DIVISION and / or NEW ORDER.. check out T21 or TRISOMIE 21..

http://t21.isCool.net http://come.to/t21

― Todd E. Jones, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

i honestly like them both. but i'm so proactive/reactive when it comes to music that i will find myself liking New Order more at times, and then Joy Division more. at this moment, i would have to say New Order. Temptation can put me in a good mood/take me out of a bad mood any time.

― ktrey, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

New Order has the better pop hooks wehn they want to

― g, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Temptation is easily new Order's best song.

― Ally, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

It's up there, oh yes. Hearing it in concert in 1989 was pure beauty, passion and energy set on fire.

― Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Joy Division.

― sundar subramanian, Wednesday, 17 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

New Order. Even if they did produce "as you said" as Joy Division. Also, 73[|-||\|¡Q|_|3 *\/\//\/$ µ 4|_1 |_4/\/\3|25!!!!! LoL!!!! ROTFL!!!!!LMAO!!!!!!!!ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! \/\/4|23$ |2|_||35! |3¡1| @4735 $µ[|<5

― Mr Fatnick, Thursday, 18 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

stop that Mr.Fatnick!

― Mike Hanle y, Thursday, 18 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Temptation and Perfect Kiss both utterly blissfull. There's no sides to take in NO v JD, though I like the idea of NO travelling back in time and having a face-off Blur/Oasis style with their younger and/or more alive selves.

― Alan Trewartha (at home), Thursday, 18 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I honestly don't wish to choose between the two, but if I had to (probably at gunpoint) it'd be Joy Division, sorry. The box set arrived this morning (18th) and as my portly brother said earlier, there's a track called 'as you said' which gives me the impression JD were going to become NO in some way, whatever happened.

― DG, Thursday, 18 October 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

two weeks pass...

i refuse to accept this idea that new order are a singles band...or that "get ready" is their best album; the very notion is laughable. the album is simply a retread and rehashing of old ideas, new order- by-numbers. and consistency isn`t a new order trait, their haphazardness and akwardness is a huge part of their appeal, it what made them a punk-pop group.but if consistency is what ur looking for head for "technique" or "lowlife"; these albums far surpass "get ready". they may lack the polish and professionalism, bernard`s vocals may be shoddy, the lyrics may be daft and oblique, but at least these albums demonstrated some kind of progression. what "get ready" demonstrates is that new order have learnt very little in their time away.

― tariq elnouri, Monday, 5 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

I have no problem saying Joy Division. I never cared about New Order. The things they recorded immediately after Ian Curtis's death made me think that without him, the group had lost it collective soul. I think that, for some reason, Joy Division had a much better overall sound. But since I lost interest, I stopped listening, and I have no idea how many of their songs I haven't heard. I sure don't consider them funky. If I want funky, I'd rather go with funk, soul, hip-hop, salsa, etc. What's that awful song "Oh you've got green eyes, oh you've got blue eyes" or however it goes?

― DeRayMi, Tuesday, 6 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

That's Temptation and it is NOT a terrible song; in fact it is a GREAT song.

― Ally, Tuesday, 6 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

"Temptation" is really, really wonderful. In fact, their singles are by and large untouchable. _Get Ready_ ties with _Movement_ as my favorite album by them.

I think that I'd have to pick New Order over Joy Division by default primarily because I've spent more time listening to NO, but as others have said I really do feel like they're the same band. Besides, "Dead Souls" and "Atmosphere" and "Transmission" and "She's Lost Control" and countless other songs are pure glory; even the Warsaw stuff is brilliant. Then again, as New Order they gave us "The Him" and "ICB" and "In A Lonely Place" and "Confusion" and "True Faith" and "Dream Attack" and "Crystal" (man I can't believe how much that song has grown on me)...

Both are glorious and wonderful. STOP MAKING ME CHOOSE.

― Dan Perry, Tuesday, 6 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

But if you had to choose and your life depended on it and refusal to choose would result in a lifetime of forced listening of Celine Dion singing the hits of Rogers & Hammerstein backed by Mannheim Steamroller, which would you choose?

Temptation is still like the greatest song ever besides Age of Consent, or at least the greatest New order song ever.

― Ally, Wednesday, 7 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

Oh GOD. That would be so awful I might refuse to choose just hear what it would sound like.

I think I have to say New Order because I'm more familiar with their material. Tthe interesting thing, though, is that my favorite album of theirs is _Movement_, aka the one that sounds the most like Joy Division.

― Dan Perry, Wednesday, 7 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

three weeks pass...

Joy. the best band ever.

― Marcelo Ribeiro, Thursday, 29 November 2001 01:00 (twenty-two years ago) link

one year passes...

Best place to start = my essay on all JD/NO singles in wire years ago heh heh

I really have to read this.

― Justyn Dillingham (Justyn Dillingham), Thursday, 12 December 2002 11:42 (twenty-one years ago) link

eight months pass...

I revive this because of the accidental realisation this morning that JD's 'Substance' comp. and NO's 'technique' share exactly the same layout and typography.
Then looking at the two albums, it hit me (*doh*) that the titles, technique vs. substance, were themselves related. I don't know if it's a random wordplay or whethere there's a deeper meaning in there (eg musical form overtaking artistic substance)..

― Fabrice (Fabfunk), Thursday, 21 August 2003 13:45 (twenty years ago) link

i choose new order.

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Thursday, 21 August 2003 15:19 (twenty years ago) link

New Order had a compilation called Substance before Joy Division did.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Thursday, 21 August 2003 15:22 (twenty years ago) link

Fabrice the problem with that theory is that New Order also had a substance compilation.

Since this thread started I like JD mostly less and NO mostly more but I like my favourite JD songs more and my favourite NO songs less. I think I am the loser in this trade-off.

Mark I notice you have not yet scanned in that Wire!

― Tom (Groke), Thursday, 21 August 2003 15:23 (twenty years ago) link

Easy choice for me - New Order.

― James Ball (James Ball), Thursday, 21 August 2003 15:27 (twenty years ago) link

scan the wire, mark! scan the wire!

― mitch lastnamewithheld (mitchlnw), Thursday, 21 August 2003 15:33 (twenty years ago) link

Joy Division!

― Emilymv (Emilymv), Thursday, 21 August 2003 17:54 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah I know about the NO compilation. That's what I meant this idea that JD/NO up to 87 were dealing in 'substance', while by 1989 they were focusing on 'technique'.. Ok, pretty fuzzy thinking..
As for the TS, NO all the way, if only for diversity's sake. With only 2 albums to their names, JD didn't really have time to develop a coherent body of work

― Fabrice (Fabfunk), Friday, 22 August 2003 07:03 (twenty years ago) link

the 13 yr old inside will not let me say anything besides 'Joy Division' but I'm alot more likely to listen to and admire New Order nowadays

― cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 22 August 2003 07:05 (twenty years ago) link

Listened to Technique last night, and was floored once again by how 'Dream Attack'. I listened to that song every morning when I was 17 and I'm still amazed by how uplifting that song and so many NO songs can be

― Fabrice (Fabfunk), Friday, 22 August 2003 07:24 (twenty years ago) link

Joy Divison ... by a neck.

― brian nemtusak (sanlazaro), Friday, 22 August 2003 20:09 (twenty years ago) link

And loving both but prefrring the one, what drives me nuts is so-called New Order fans who draw the line somewhere around Low-Life. If you buy in at all, I think you've gotta allow for more--in its bloated big-sound way, even something like "Touched By the Hand of God" is pretty neat. I think Technique was probably the end, but ...

(granted, the video for "TBHG" left me incapable of objectivity, but still ...)

― brian nemtusak (sanlazaro), Friday, 22 August 2003 20:16 (twenty years ago) link

Joy Division.
But I like rock/pop more than I like synth-pop so this is predictable.

― Orbit (Orbit), Saturday, 23 August 2003 14:39 (twenty years ago) link

"Don´t you forget Rudolf Hess!", shouted Ian Curtis in the JD gig in 1978. "Walked in Line" is also covered by fascist group Blood Axis..

― Division Kalevala Finland, Saturday, 23 August 2003 16:50 (twenty years ago) link

"Have you never heard of the free use of signs and signifyers? We've also got a band on our label called the Durutti Column. I hope the irony isn't lost on you".

― Lynskey (Lynskey), Saturday, 23 August 2003 17:18 (twenty years ago) link

I'm of the mind that NO is really a continuation of JD and that the band's entire career has been pretty mindblowingly wonderful. The lads made a few mis-steps here and there, sure, but still...

― Kent Burt (lingereffect), Sunday, 24 August 2003 01:39 (twenty years ago) link

The lads

Hey, don't forget Gillian now. :-)

― Ned Raggett (Ned), Sunday, 24 August 2003 01:42 (twenty years ago) link

I'm not sure what Brian is saying about Touched By The Hand Of God, but it is surely the greatest New Order single of all?

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 24 August 2003 01:44 (twenty years ago) link

I haven't heard it for years, mind.

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 24 August 2003 01:44 (twenty years ago) link

I fell in love with Joy Division. New Order actually makes me sad to the point that I do not enjoy lisening to them because they lack one important thing: Ian Curtis.

― Brandon Welch (Brandon Welch), Sunday, 24 August 2003 13:49 (twenty years ago) link

I would take "Take On Me" or "99 Luftballoons" over everything I've heard by New Order put together.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Sunday, 24 August 2003 13:51 (twenty years ago) link

I have a handful of beans you might be interested in, Sundar.

― N. (nickdastoor), Sunday, 24 August 2003 16:02 (twenty years ago) link

Early NO was pretty good but they really got horrible.

― kid blue note, Sunday, 24 August 2003 16:48 (twenty years ago) link

Joy Division by miles and miles and miles.

― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 24 August 2003 17:47 (twenty years ago) link

I'm not sure what Brian is saying about Touched By The Hand Of God, but it is surely the greatest New Order single of all?

it probably is.

it's definitely better than anything Joy Division did.

although that's not really comparing like with like.

― DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 25 August 2003 12:43 (twenty years ago) link

nah, that would be Temptation

― Fabrice (Fabfunk), Monday, 25 August 2003 13:02 (twenty years ago) link

Sundar, put down that Styx record and get some New Order.

― Mr Noodles (Mr Noodles), Monday, 25 August 2003 13:04 (twenty years ago) link

I have three of them.

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 25 August 2003 13:18 (twenty years ago) link

(New Order records, that is. I actually paid for them too.)

― sundar subramanian (sundar), Monday, 25 August 2003 13:19 (twenty years ago) link

eleven months pass...

is it me, or does it seem like new order is currently much trendier than joy division? i cant get too upset, because i think i like new order better - more emphasis on melody, although perhaps at the expense of well-written lyrics...

OBV this is the most hackneyed question of all time when you brits are concerned.

― peter smith (plsmith), Thursday, 29 July 2004 14:42 (nineteen years ago) link

two years pass...

I don't think they ever did Louie Louie.
according to the ian curtis and joy division fans(!) club site they played louie louie live several times. there doesn't seem to be any recording of it, not even a bootleg, though.

― alex in mainhattan (alex63), Sunday, 13 August 2006 06:59 (seventeen years ago) link

New Order... although they should have thrown in the towl after Republic.

― Public Radio (public_radio), Sunday, 13 August 2006 07:15 (seventeen years ago) link

That is to say the Rebpublic was the shit but they should have just gone out with a bang.. and they should have taken the Pet Shop Boys with them, after Very.. And also Depeche Mode after Violator. They should have all patted each other on the backs and moved on to philanthropy.

― Public Radio (public_radio), Sunday, 13 August 2006 07:17 (seventeen years ago) link

This thread demands that I divulge my dirty secret - I always liked New Order more. Even when Joy Division were all the rage with the people I was hanging with, I always preferred New Order.

But as I've said elsewhere on this board, most Joy Division has aged amazingly well. I appreciate them more now than ever, but I can't play "Closer" anymore. That's the only problem. There's just some mental block there, even though I know it's a brilliant record.

― Kiss My Grits! (Bimble...), Sunday, 13 August 2006 08:01 (seventeen years ago) link

I just want to clarify that a bit, though, what I mean is I was introduced to JD and NO at the same time, so even though these people, much older than I were telling me JD was better, I still didn't feel that way.

― Kiss My Grits! (Bimble...), Sunday, 13 August 2006 08:03 (seventeen years ago) link

I know this is gonna get me flamed but, outside of a handful of songs, JD really kind of annoys me.
New Order all the way....i even like alot of their 90's stuff!
There I said it.

― astronautagogo (astronautagogo), Sunday, 13 August 2006 10:06 (seventeen years ago) link

yeah, have fun in HELL

― rizzx (Rizz), Sunday, 13 August 2006 10:30 (seventeen years ago) link

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