Rolling Jazz Thread 2023

Jordan posted great stuff about his teacher Richard Davis over on Roll Call: Jazz Heroes of the Upright Bass

You don't get Arthur Doyle? Not even Alabama Feeling or his playing on Babi?

Alabama Feeling still just about the RAWEST saxophone sound that I can think of, reason enough to dig Doyle.

I like Charles Gayle's drumming on The Blue Humans' Live in London 1994.

The one time I saw Gayle was an unforgettable experience: Cafe Oto in 2017 with John Edwards and Mark Sanders. Beautiful sax playing - as Phil says, a lot more to it that screaming and his piano playing was something else. He had the audience breaking out in spontaneous whoops and cheers, even a bit of singing IIRC. There were definitely spirits being channeled that night - the atmosphere was quite unlike anything I've experienced.

https://www.cafeoto.co.uk/shop/charles-gayle-john-edwards-mark-sanders-seasons-ch/

You don't get Arthur Doyle? Not even Alabama Feeling or his playing on Babi?

I like Babi, and Noah Howard's The Black Ark is an amazing record that uses Doyle as a special effect. But that's all he ever was — he was absolutely the one-dimensional shriek machine that people accuse every other free jazz player of being, and a little goes a very long way.

It is telling that on the Roisin Murphy thread everyone is saying that she’s fucked her career and yet a virulent and vocal homophobe and anti-choice dickbag like Gayle is getting treated with kid gloves here.

It’s fine if you want to listen to him, but at least respect why some of us don’t give a fuck about him and are glad he’s fucked off into Hell, where his hateful bullshit has taken him despite his probable belief to the contrary

I mean fwiw, I do acknowledge that everyone’s mileage varies with this kind of thing. I still think the Evan Parker and NIS record from 2021 is sick, tho Evan Parker is a nutso anti-vax fascist.

But as a gay dude, I’m just going to state that in my opinion, it isn’t free jazz unless it’s about liberation in sound and spirit, and while I might admire Gayle’s sound, the lack at his spiritual center sort of drowns out whatever pleasure I’ve derived from his sound.

It is telling that on the Roisin Murphy thread everyone is saying that she’s fucked her career and yet a virulent and vocal homophobe and anti-choice dickbag like Gayle is getting treated with kid gloves here.

I have written a much longer take which will be published on Wednesday in the BA newsletter. I'll link it when it's out.

...Charles Gayle. Gayle is notorious for his homophobic views, which he likes to express in the course of his performance

Table otm - what a stain this guy was

Can't blame anyone for rejecting Gayle based on his views and it certainly does test the limits of separating art and life. Matana Roberts had some interesting reflections on their Twitter about this.

As for Evan Parker, he's obviously deeply misguided with his anti-vax nonsense, but he's not a fascist. Like many an older lefty, he's probably been spending too much time on dodgy websites and the relative isolation and financial precarity brought about by Covid won't have helped. It's not like he's obsessively going on about it and I think a dose of reality (no gigs outside the UK for a couple of years, other musicians presumably having a word, and, ironically enough, a bout of Covid) may have pulled him back from the brink. Those close to him will have a better idea of what's going on. I guess time will tell.

it's good to see you posting, stew

table, i did not know those things about CG and it was not my intention to overlook or dismiss homophobia.

Not only did he have gross opinions, he'd apparently interrupt his performances to rant about abortion, et al.

I've never listened to Gayle, and also had no idea he was such a piece of shit, damn.

More importantly - do I go see the Chris Speed Trio with Dave King this week, or Amendola vs Blades w/Cyro Baptista next week? Leaning towards the latter since I've seen CST before (although it's always delightful to see such great musicians), and I'm betting Cyro Baptista will be a real fun time live.

Yeah I've never heard him either and had no idea, wow.

Would love to hear Cyro Baptista live. His album with Derek Bailey is a favourite of mine.

Huh, didn't know about CG's antichoice views/onstage rants until now; the one time I heard him live (in '95, with Rashied Ali and William Parker), he didn't say a word until show's end

cancelling the legacy of a jazz artist who i'd never heard of until he died just now

modernity is wild

I was a huge Charles Gayle fan from the moment I heard in him 1993, my first real brush free jazz as current vital force, not historical artifact, and it was through him I would discover, Ware, Parker, Shipp, et al and basically a whole universe music I'm still fascinated by to this day.

I never got to see him live, his one trip to Mpls I was aware of it but still underage, I tried to get into the show, couldn't.

I think I first heard his rants on "Testaments" (I think it's that one) so 1995 and it ruined his music for me, for at least twenty years I couldn't separate the art from the artist and even now I still can't really, but I can listen to those early records (and some more recent ones that record with Edwards/Sanders mentioned upthread is incredible) and hear the greatness of his playing and I have to admit he is still fascinating artist to me in spite of everything, though obv the line is different for everyone and even if he didn't have completely repellant homophobic and misogynistic views his music is really not for everyone, nor was he the kind of artist to compromise for any reason...I mean the whole "Streets" thing...

Matana Roberts's thoughts & livestream where very interesting and I mean, even in this thread there are youtube clips of Gayle playing with artists who would be the target of his rants, so I'm not sure how to square any of this...

This essay from 2018 gets at some things I agree with (again, I'll have a long piece going out on Wednesday).

Most scandalously, he began preaching his version of Christian salvation from the bandstand. And thus for Gayle—a modest, unassuming if eccentric working musician verging on retirement age—the shit hit the fan. The most contentious aspects of Gayle’s sermonizing were his insistence that abortion was nothing but “a slick word for killing babies,” and his decrying of “men lusting after men and women lusting after women” as an “abomination” and a “sin” on par with “lying, cheating, and stealing.” Audiences, club owners, and festival directors alike were bemused and put off. Work became harder to come by.

Now it probably goes without saying that, like most people my age in this country, I am cool with anybody lusting after anybody, and doing what they will with that lust, so long as all parties are consenting. Additionally, I will always be an advocate for a woman’s right to make her own decisions about reproduction and her own body. Gayle’s attitudes on these issues are not ones that I am in sympathy with. And I am not about to defend his right to profess those attitudes, since I know that, when expressed, they do real people real harm, especially when their expression is buttressed by institutional support.

But I also feel that it’s important to acknowledge that Gayle’s Christianity is, and has always been, firmly in the mainstream of American evangelical thought. When Gayle made these statements about abortion and homosexuality—just two years after Planned Parenthood v. Casey, and years before Will & Grace and Brokeback Mountain and Queer Eye, when “gay panic” defenses for murder still held some water in the American justice system—most Americans probably would have agreed with him. A jazz blog is a fine place for a reminder that the past, even the recent past, is often a bleaker place than we like to remember it.

Gayle’s fundamentalism is a reflection of a pervasive American situation. The fact that he — a penniless African-American musician with a negligible audience* that, by his own admission, probably disagrees with him — has been singled out for institutional censure thus makes me a little bit queasy. He’s an easy target. We can’t bring down Pat Robertson or James Dobson, but we can sure as hell can bring down Charles Gayle.

Gayle’s Christianity is actually a bit more nuanced than the spine-chilling pronouncements to which it is often reduced. A 1994 concert performance in Santa Barbara affords Gayle his longest and most poetic stay at the pulpit. Fired by Michael Wimberley’s drums, Gayle does indeed decry abortion and homosexuality. Outrageously, he implies that being “a homosexual” is equivalent to being “a murderer” in a long list of spiritual transgressions—as are smoking, and drinking, and being “a very arrogant person.” But, for all that, he gives no impression of moralistic hauteur. “You all got a slick word for killin’ babies,” he begins to say, and “a slick way of committing abomination” – but he suddenly corrects himself: “when I say you, I mean me.” In Gayle’s interpretation of scripture — and he does know his scripture — one Bible sin is as good as any other as a reflection of a person’s spiritual character. (Telling us that smoking is no different than lying or “fornicating,” he admonishes us — and himself — not to “try to get uppity-jumpity about what sin you’ve committed.”) He is aware that the New Testament says that no-one is without sin, not least the preacher himself. The nature of the sin is immaterial; even being a “good” person as opposed to a “bad” one is immaterial. What is material to Gayle is that sin itself is forgiven, as long as the sinner comes believingly to Christ. And that, he says, is the message of John Coltrane, Albert Ayler, and Eric Dolphy. Any other interpretation of the music of these African-American icons is, he decrees, an appropriation: if you haven’t “surrendered” to Christ, “don’t talk about Coltrane, don’t talk about Albert, don’t talk about Black music, because you’re talkin’ a lie.”

I saw Charles Gayle in 2001 or 2002. It was great. He played a lot of piano, which surprised me a little, but I really enjoyed. I sat at a table next to Roscoe Mitchell.

Eh, I think that take is bullshit, but considering the pushback I’ve gotten here and elsewhere about it, I’m just not going to say anymore about it in the hopes that we might talk about some newer jazz that actually matters instead of some deceased crackpot.

The new Irreversible Entanglements is…nice? very mellow compared to the live concert on YouTube from 2018 I played next. I know Moor Mother couldn’t keep up this level of outrage forever (nor should she).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diLI9m5PFXs

Can't say too much, but I interviewed all five of them yesterday for a major upcoming feature.

cancelling the legacy of a jazz artist who i'd never heard of until he died just now

― xheugy eddy (D-40), Monday, September 11, 2023 2:14 PM (seven hours ago) bookmarkflaglink

new board description

Obviously people can choose to disengage with an artist if they have an issue with their personal beliefs. But i do find it a bit odd when people are surprised that the weirdo outsider artist is in fact a weirdo outsider.

Many times, weirdo outsiders understand what it is like to be a weirdo outsider.

Despite the implication of your post, being a virulent homophobic, anti-woman crackpot like Gayle is an example of an “outsider “ aligning himself with hegemony, not an outsider being weird and outsidery.

Gay people are outsiders, and given the way this country is run, so are women.

Really pitiful that so many value a third-rate head’s playing over the humanity of others, and justifying it badly in the doing so.

given that some of views probably aligned with maga republicans, it would be an insult to genuine weirdo outsiders to put this dead arsehole in the club!

For free sax players who also play piano ( and other instruments) Sam Rivers gives me everything I’m craving (if he had gross beliefs he kept them to himself).

Speaking of Rivers, are there any new archive releases on the horizon from No Business label? I think there are seven so far.

You're not going to change Charles Gayle after he's dead. It's a good thing to speak up about the views he had, it's a good thing to speak up about the hegemony. And you can do these things while still valuing his playing and place in jazz history, without conflating everything. Nobody is "justifying" anything here or choosing "his musicianship over the humanity of others" whatever that means.

If anything, everyone has reacted to say that his views were appalling and a disappointment. What more do you want ?

You and I are reading different threads— what I see here, largely, is a lot of people saying, “yeah but” or choosing to elide his views completely.

What I want is for people to strongly denounce his views and say that it absolutely and justifiably tarnishes his music.

Instead, we get anodyne statements like “yeah i saw him it was great, i was seated next to roscoe mitchell :-)”

I read a book by Ajay Heble, then-director of the Guelph Jazz Festival, which has a long discussion of his dilemma around booking a show by Charles Gayle. As I recall, his final decision is against - specifically because Gayle often expressed his views onstage, rather than privately or even just in interviews. Needless to say, such "delicate" distinctions would probably not be applied in the social media era.

Feel really bad for speaking against the new Fly or Die upthread, it’s a great album but I wasn’t in the headspace first it at first. I usually wait to give judgement in such cases but for some reason above I felt compelled to just blurt out my first thoughts without giving it a fair shot.

Ok fine, I'll give it another listen :)

yeah same! i think my feelings toward the previous record sort of badly colored my opinion of the newer one, so i will try again soon

The Irreversible Entanglements is appeased and almost playful at times, and trying new things. Stand out track Root <=> Branch moves abruptly from a contemplative first half to a second mocking half. Slow ballad Sunshine features demented vocals and electronics. Really feeling the bass that surging on the closer Degrees of Freedom with its slow swing, as the strings and horns agonize around it, beautiful track, Nina Simone is somewhere smiling proudly. I was less convinced by the first half, which was closer to Matana Roberts. Soundness made me think of Algiers Can we let the subbass speak though, that's cool. Good record.

Final thoughts on Charles Gayle.

was less convinced by the first half, which was closer to Matana Roberts. Soundness made me think of Algiers

Damn, Nasheet Waits:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkWdU-WeGFw

Damn, that smokes. Might have missed it, but didn't see much discussion about the New Jawn album from earlier this year, Prime, which is terrific.

Yeah, I love both that group's records. Didn't know McBride had that kind of energy in him!

I love the new Irreversible Entanglements. They're such a good band. I like them in both groove and freak-out modes.

And yeah I think that Jaimie Branch album is great, she was such a force. I like all the Fly or Die albums, but apart from the live album I think this one is my favorite.

Spoke to Jason Ajemian about the making of the album and jaimie's legacy.

https://daily.bandcamp.com/features/jaimie-branch-interview

I just purchased tix to see Daniel Villarreal in Brooklyn in Oct. Very excited.

My latest Stereogum column is up. I interviewed pianist Aaron Diehl, who's just released a recording of Mary Lou Williams' Zodiac Suite with the chamber orchestra the Knights (using Williams' own arrangements); I also reviewed new albums by Matana Roberts, James Brandon Lewis, Darcy James Argue's Secret Society, Gard Nilssen's Supersonic Orchestra, Idris Ackamoor & the Pyramids, and others.

Saw NIS tonight— truly a fantastic show. My husband was terrified of the harmonium player, and frankly, I understand a little. Small room, great sound :)

Third Fly or Die is quite the statement. What a broad range of influences this album contains. How those guys respond to each other flawlessly and joyfully. While each element is calibrated and nothing weighs more than it needs to. Borealis Dancing and Baba Louie could easily find their place as year end tracks.

Just got tix to Makaya in two weeks. I saw him once here with a trio in a small club, missed the last show at a larger rock club that I heard was great, and this one is in a concert theater. Wonder who will be in the band this time?