to what extent does your life revolve around alcohol?

I mean whatever 5mg of THC is on that thing. not 5mg of the apple juice. reckon that wouldn't do much

Yeah I think a regular dose is 10mg, so 5 would be a good starting taste

it's a pretty small bottle

great posts upthread km, thanks

I once quit cigarettes and stuck to it for years because I had a good friend along for the ride, we had weekly phone call sessions abt staying off cigs (somewhat inspired by what I'd gathered abt AA from reading infinite jest)

eventually we figured we were good and stopped the phone calls and half a year later both relapsed

I know a handful of former potheads who say CBD weed changed their lives, they can smoke as much as they normally would but with hardly any side effects (and supposedly still getting the kind of anxiety relief they need)

It's gotten to where weed has started making me anxious. I get stoned and instead of relaxing I start tripping on wether I should be getting stoned or not

Maybe we need a separate thread for "To what extent does your life revolve around weed?" (Serious, not being flippant.)

My wife rarely drinks but we went our for her birthday with a couple of friends and they got a little tipsy.

Man, being around drunk people is seriously trying for a newly sober person. At the same time it's affirming because I totally saw myself in their behavior and it was repulsive. Not that I was repulsed by my wife, but seeing in them the ways I used to act when drunk and it was embarrassing. It was like being on the other side of a two way mirror and seeing myself. The first moments when words start to slur a little but I think nobody would notice when it's already well past that point.

Lately I've been thinking a lot about Camper Van Beethoven's "Never Go Back."

"If you see me sitting around
Thinking the same old thoughts over and over again
Or going back to old ways I've long ago abandoned,
Please, tell me... Never go back."

The first moments when words start to slur a little but I think nobody would notice when it's already well past that point.

Yeah, that's one of the things I'm realizing this time around. It had to do with why I quit herb in addition to booze. I've had a problem with my wife's cannabis consumption for a while, and it has led to problems in our relationship (I mean, it's one of many, many issues between us, but that's a sidebar we don't need to get into). Sometimes, I notice her eating cannabutter very early in the day, and I've made a few snide remarks like "starting early, huh?" To which she replies something like "I use pot all day, every day. You just don't notice." And the answer I keep to myself is "No, I really, really notice." Back when I was using, I always thought that cannabis just made her act strangely, while I thought I was able to pass in public. But at a certain point, I realized that sometimes I may have seemed more intoxicated than I realized as well.

Anyway, I haven't heard that Camper Van Beethoven song in years. I'll have to revisit it.

I would love to have the kind of hope and motivation to quit pot and go through 6 months to 3 years of PAWS but I don’t believe in myself at all and I’m too old to like “start over” psychically or whatever. guess I need to hit “rock bottom” and receive some “tough love”!

Not here to give advice or anything because we're all different people with different circumstances, but in regard to the general theme of this thread my own broad feelings about whatever chemicals people use in their routines are the old standbys about, what if anything is it interfering with or inhibiting?

Obviously if it gets to the point of losing jobs or relationships because of or fueled by substance use, that's a problem, but by that point you're pretty far down the line probably. For me it's more paying attention to my moods, how I act with and around my family and friends, whether I'm ever distant or irritable or whatever because of alcohol/weed (or because I haven't had alcohol or weed), just that baseline "How do I feel?" I only ever want intoxicants to be supplements, life enhancers, things that make an evening more pleasant. If they are serving purposes other than that, that may be OK in the short term — god knows I've drunk more in the year after a relationship ended, e.g. — but obviously potentially problematic in the longer term. So for me it's less about quantity or frequency of anything than about observable effects (to the extent one can view such things about oneself with any objectivity).

I was a moderator at a Moderation Management meeting for a few years, until a combination of factors (Covid, and then losing the meeting space) shut it down. We had some fairly solid guidelines for what was considered moderate drinking - i.e. no more than 14 drinks per week for men, 9 for women, no more than four on any occasion, only 3-4 days per week, etc. Alcohol is pretty quantifiable - 14 grams of pure alcohol is considered a standard drink in the U.S. (The meeting was really helpful for me and I'm thinking of trying to get it going again.)

But occasionally we'd get someone coming in that was interested in moderating their weed use, and we basically had to start from scratch. There were no guidelines to speak of - what is moderate cannabis use? An eighth a week maybe? Never smoking before 5pm? Only on the weekends? It was an interesting problem, and one that our national org was reluctant to deal with because weed is still illegal in a lot of places. I think things have changed now in that some of the gummies and edible things are very specific in the dosages. But like a lot of drugs, tolerance can set in over time and you might need more to feel the effects.

Anyone ever tried to come with a personal plan for consistently 'moderate' weed use?

For me it's like, a hit or two in the evening. Which adds up to, like ... less than an eighth a month? (Not trying to make any heavier users feel bad, I've just never been a high-volume guy.)

Yeah, I definitely don't want to make other people feel bad about their imbibements. My choices have been very much based on what I've noticed about myself and how certain things weren't working for me.

I do like what Karl Malone said about "5-10 relaxing experiences that i can have ... rather than my medicine that will get me through the month". If I get to a more stable place in life, I can see trying to move back to a moderate usage of herb like that. Through trial and error, I've determined that's not possible with alcohol for me.

tipsy (no pun intended) otm

What is your usage interfering with is a key question. Also the idea of enhancement as opposed to replacement.

I want to drink wine for taste, culture, history, food pairing, camaraderie. I don't want to be drinking just to silence The Voices. Nor just because it's there.

Weed, I know to only reach for when I am already in a good mood. If I use any substance in a bad mood, or an anxious mood, it just tends to press the accelerator pedal on that mood.

I'm following this derail with interest. I didn't try grass until relatively late in life (around 30; I'm 38 now), and it was just occasional then since I had an infrequent connection. I'd been a casual drinker, but around 33 something changed; I got headaches or hangovers more frequently (and more punishingly) with decreasing amounts of alcohol--these days, two tall boys of Schlitz is enough to give me a bit of a migraine the next day, even when drinking plenty of water. As a result, I've largely phased it out in favor of vaping.

I used to smoke once or twice a week, largely because I never knew when I could get more. With a dealing neighbor and then legalization, it became a daily thing, though this wasn't a conscious decision. (I am still low tolerance, so it's generally two to three months before I need to replenish).

I go back and forth on this. I don't have any health effects, and I'm not really self-medicating, except for some irritating work days. Largely, I use it because I feel good on it, and for all the stereotypical reasons: it makes me feel a bit more... engaged? in media. Like, when watching films, I tend to "feel" them more and go with the flow, rather than overanalyzing as I'm watching, wanting to pull out my phone to look up an actor, or laugh more at TV. And the usual music effects.

Still, I get this nagging voice that doing anything like that every day raises an eyebrow. Like, I do it because it's genuinely more enjoyable to watch comedy stoned, but is that cover for a crutch? Then I say, am I just being moralistic--if I feel good, enjoy doing it, and it's not affecting my ability to function, or my relationship, what's the problem?

I suppose I should go back to being intentional--only smoke when I am deliberately listening to something or watching something--but if we're watching a comedy series, we tend to do an episode a night, so that winds me right back. At very least, been thinking about eliminating it as first recourse if I'm just bored.

In re anxiety, I'm not particularly prone to it but one of the times I've stopped using weed entirely was when my ex-wife was pregnant with our second child. Our first was born super premature, at 27 weeks, so the second pregnancy was fraught. It ended up being fine (just a month premature, which felt like nothing to us after the first experience), but during the lead-up I was so stressed about it that I found weed just made things worse. It's the only time I've actually thrown weed away, I was just like, "This isn't helping." Then didn't smoke it much for a few years because the house was full of little kids and appropriate times became harder to find.

And Blatherskite, my usage these days is probably v similar to yours, and I don't think there's any reason for "guilt" or anything about it — I drink coffee every morning too, I have lots of daily habits. I do probably need to shift to dry vaping, the actual smoke part is the one thing that I DO feel at all bad about.

my story is the same as yours, almost to the letter (I don't live in a legal state, but I have a neighbor with a brother-in-law...). health wise weed has probably been a good thing because I feel much less urge to drink. I was getting to the point where I'd randomly drink at nights and then wind up just wishing I was out with friends. smoking makes you wanna stay in and listen to music. which I do quite often anyway.

idk if there's much reason to feel guilty...I switch between smoking through a dry vape and edibles, so I don't think I'm hurting my lungs too much and my tolerance hasn't really crept up, which is nice, because if it did I'd feel the need to dial it back. totally agreed with the other posters though in that you don't really want to be using it if you're in a bad space. same way it can really intensify a great tune it can also intensify a bad feeling.

I think vaping (with oil cartridges) is a bit enabling w/r/t thoughtless consumption. When I vape actual bud, I have to wait for my vaporizer to heat up for seven minutes, then put in the grass and wait another five or so minutes. Whereas I can instantly hit my oil vaporizer, so it's much easier to grab it on an impulse/whim and due to that instant high. Or, if already high, to keep going throughout the rest of the night, rather than stopping to reload bud, watch what I've ground deplete to gauge how much I've used, etc.

It’s likely the oil is super bad for your lungs, tho. There have been a few deaths directly caused by oil based tobacco vapes, and literally nobody knows what long term exposure will do.

Probably pretty safe to assume it's not good for you, lol

* nicotine rather than tobacco, I mean

yea I think there's something to be said for that, if I'm loading the dry vape I'm just running through the one cycle and if later on I want more I'm usually like "eh, fuck it". the pen you just keep hitting every 15-20 minutes, which I'm sure is not great for your tolerance, among other things. also it isn't the same high. I think of it as eating a banana Laffy Taffy vs. an actual banana. like its a super concentrated high that's not quite as fulfilling.

as far as health effects go I've had a couple carts which just murdered my throat and I wound up tossing them. others were a lot smoother but yeah I don't wanna be one of those guys who sucks one down every couple weeks. the dry herb vape feels a lot safer for the lungs. iirc the deaths I think were due to fake carts which used a Vitamin E acetate to thicken them up. which I guess is something you absolutely should not smoke. I think there were several a few years ago but idk if there have been any since?

man you all are bumming me out

The question, "What are alcohol/weed keeping you from doing?" is sound. When I've considered a brief abstinence I've wondered what I could be doing instead.

I couldn't think of a thing.

If it weren’t for family obligations, I would straight up devolve into Cheech & Chong levels of stonerism. As it is I manage to get a lot of smoking in. I sometimes flirt with cutting back but my natural tendency is to become The Dude. Which is not necessarily healthy. It definitely feels more like maintenance than being stimulated. That’s how drinking was for me and it’s my general relationship with things I like.

I suppose it’s fair to say that choices I’ve made have made my life a lot smaller than I would prefer.

yeah I’m kind of like a moody sarcastic Lebowski

I stopped drinking though, because it really was demonstrably sending me to oblivion

to answer the threads question : lots.
and i have no issue with that.
i know this sounds irresponsible.
but i care not.
i only started drinking seriously after my wife died.
and 11 years later ..
well yeah.
most weeks i dry out for 3 days.
however, the fact is, i discovered a whole new world of social excess via the pub after she died.
was not easy going to the pub as a new widower, but little by little, the local crew got to know and accept this weird music loving bloke.
i now have a lot of local friends that i would never have had if not for booze.

blatherskite, one of the reasons I like edibles is that I have to plan ahead and be really intentional about it. I have to know where I'm going to be and what I'm expected to be doing 45 minutes or an hour from now. Also that there is a ceiling to the high. Example:

A quarter of a brownie = in X minutes I will probably be at X level of highness for Y hours (some of which I will be asleep for).

But HALF of a brownie = in X minutes I will probably be at X level of highness for Y+2 hours (most of which I will be asleep for).

The larger dose doesn't seem to affect the time of arrival or the amount of alteredness. Just its duration (for me, anyway). And since I sleep through a lot of it, it really doesn't matter.

This is distinct from the buzz maintenance strategies required for gin (he said, striving mightily to tack back to the topic).

One gin & tonic = Tasty, but meh in terms of buzz.

Two gin & tonics in 30 minutes = Oh, nice.

Three gin & tonics in 45 minutes = Now you're talking.

Four gin & tonics in 60 minutes = Guess I'll be ubering home.

Five, six, well... let's just not go there because it isn't pretty.

“ and that third time, the friend's house, in her company, doing an activity together and feeling the sun, reminded me of why i had stopped in the first place. because it was so, so good, in a normal way, which is to say the outstanding way that used to be normal for me for so long. somewhere along the way, though, i lost that. i mentioned it to a friend a few weeks ago and still remember, so i guess it's halfway worth remembering -- smoking had become maintenance for me. sure, it made me feel better, but i was starting to feel really dull and moody without it, and on some occasions which should have been warm family gatherings, i'd find myself thinking about getting home and smoking. not good. smoking weed should, and can be, a wonderful experience that softens things, opens up creativity, pushes back against the negative voice. it shouldn't be a debt you have to pay to get back to normal, and that's what it had become for me.”

Without getting specific, I’ll just say of KM what the young folks say about their favorite rappers - that MFer spittin’

In Moderation Management, we used to use the metaphor of a line in the sand - one this side of the line (let's say 4 pints) all is well and fun and celebratory - and on that side of the line (maybe 6 pints) they returns are diminishing, you're starting to get stupid and you have booze breath and you're probably not going sleep well.. and you'll likely feel it in the morning.

So this goal is to try and stay on this side of line - slow down, drink some water, make sure to eat some food, etc.

to be honest I would have loved for this stuff to have been discussed on ilx 5-10 years ago because I did not know anybody who talked about “problems” with weed and felt like a complete chuffhead for having a problem or thinking I did or whatever. That shows a supreme deficit of character and introspection on my part, but… nobody took this seriously. Through “treatment” I met maybe 2 people out of dozens of addicts who had a “pot problem” but I’m pretty sure one of them was a narc. Ok enough over sharing :-(

yup that is the struggle now, once you've had Drink #4 you're in a good spot and it's really hard not to think "ooh a 5th would make me feel even better" and at that point you just don't have the willpower to say no. worse this is when someone will bring up shots and you just go oh hell yeah

and yeah I identify with that KM quote too, always helps to take breaks here and there. the sense of euphoria is a lot more pronounced after a few days off

was not easy going to the pub as a new widower, but little by little, the local crew got to know and accept this weird music loving bloke.
i now have a lot of local friends that i would never have had if not for booze.

mark e, this was very much my experience when I was first divorced. There was one brewpub downtown at the time (this was pre-downtown revival here) where everybody who lived, worked or just hung out downtown would get together. I met so many people there over the next year or two, mostly by virtue of not wanting to go home and be by myself. Some of my best friends to this day. And a couple of girlfriends too. And the booze 100 percent facilitated all of that.

One little speech I give sometimes when my wife and I are doing cocktail classes is about the importance of alcohol to human civilization. There's a reason for its enduring ubiquity (at least, in countries where it's legal) — its greatest use imo is as a social drug. It smooths the frictions of social anxiety and awkwardness. Human interaction is stressful, there's real value in making it less so. (Which alcohol does up to a point, past which point — as noted above — returns diminish speedily and even catastrophically.)

And don't forget, for hundreds of years beer et al. was safer to drink than water.

Going back to that podcast (sorry), he kept emphasizing the carcinogenic properties of alcohol, which is, of course, any way you look at it, explicitly a poison. That is, it is nothing but bad for you, with no minimum/safe amount, just degrees of badness. I found the emphasis really striking, as was his comparison of drinking and smoking and their similar (if not exactly analogous) hazards. That is, I always figured, hey, I don't drink to excess, it does not appear to be negatively impacting my life, so no problem. But saying that 14 drinks or whatever is the same cancer risk as smoking 10 cigarettes or something, I have to admit, I'd never thought about it like that. The invisible impacts, the way that alcohol can pretty much infiltrate and mess with your entire body. It did give me pause. But not enough to make me quit drinking, lol.

I would have loved for this stuff to have been discussed on ilx 5-10 years ago

Search is your friend for past discussions, and if anybody wants to bump one for weed-o-centric content (Note: I am not trying to be the thread police - fine with the discussion continuing organically, so to speak, here)

Weed and alcohol- classic, dud, somewhere in the middle?
any tips on quitting weed
Weed, depression and schizophrenia
34 Hours without weed
weed in the new era

I've just given up weed for Lent

xpost

I was indoctrinated early on into the alcohol-is-poison mindset by a stoner friend who I was in a band with. "Which one makes you feel worse in the morning?" was his refrain, in re booze vs. weed. I agreed he had a point. The recent studies have hammered it home, but I've always thought of alcohol as basically a mild toxin with longterm cumulative effects.

(And obv taken in sufficient quantities it can have very bad short-term effects too)

I found this a few years ago and think it's pretty darn good.. non-judgemental, non-dogmatic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbKbq2IytC4

yup that is the struggle now, once you've had Drink #4 you're in a good spot and it's really hard not to think "ooh a 5th would make me feel even better" and at that point you just don't have the willpower to say no. worse this is when someone will bring up shots and you just go oh hell yeah

and yeah I identify with that KM quote too, always helps to take breaks here and there. the sense of euphoria is a lot more pronounced after a few days off

― frogbs, Thursday, February 2, 2023

At the point of the fourth drink I wonder, "Is this party breaking up soon? Please?" Exhaustion is as much the killer these days.

my mindset re: alcohol is that it's probably okay and maybe even mentally healthy to have one or two vices so long as you don't overdo it. when I started drinking my resolution was to give up soda. now that I'm older I think of it as a trade off for exercising and cutting out some unhealthy foods. not really sure where weed fits into all this.

I haven't tasted a soda of any kind in at least 15 years and avoid breads and sugar and carbs generally as much as I can; the nightly Negroni or martini is the reward.

I figure (most) everything fine in moderation, because really, you have to draw the line somewhere. Caffeine? Sugar? Alcohol? Fats? All the while we're getting older, you can't stop that, and while some get older than others, your body often has other plans for you no matter how you live your life. So might as well, you know, live a little.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kisr3daNRx0

I used to drink a twelve pack of soda a week. Sometimes, when eating a pizza, I'd finish one can and pop open another immediately. I've reduced it to one on the weekends as a treat (LaCroix helped a lot) and it's nice how the lack of it reinforces the habit of not drinking it more--now if I have a 16oz bottle of soda, I can only finish half, and save the rest for the following day.

I'm not even really tempted by soda, outside of an occasional Squirt at a taqueria, or a hangover Coke. But my teeth show the ravages of a soda childhood, I look like Jaws from the Bond films

lol yes soda is much more a forbidden vice for me than alcohol. I enjoy a fountain Coke in the right situation (diner, grilled cheese sandwich, fries) and allow myself a gas station Dr. Pepper on road trips, but we have it in the house only as mixers (ginger beer, mostly).

i gave up caffeine 20 years ago.
full on sweats/headaches/fever for a week.
one of the worst weeks of my life.

*Squirt is the soda that goes with any spirit, btw