Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

14 or 15 years old. Living in a rented house — more like a palace — an Edwardian mock-Tudor behemoth with a fountain, ivy, lilac hedges a kilometre long, and acres of lawn. Don’t know how my LMC parents pulled that off, but it’s given me delusions of deserving an estate all my life. Anyway, of course it’s my job to mow the lawn, and since it’s a rider and I’m as yet too young to have my license, I’m thrilled to do it.

One day I’m cruising around the yard at full tilt, Walkman on, just giving ‘er, when I become vaguely aware of stinging pains in my arms and neck. WASPS. I’d run over a ground nest and they were out to make me pay. I panicked and bailed and ran for the house with a cartoon cloud of wasps after me. The mower kept going to the edge of the lawn and over the lip of a hill, coming to rest with the rear wheels still spinning, 3/4 capsized, against the fence. As I’m sponging myself down with cold water I look out the window & can see my dad trying to wrestle the mower back upright while fending off the wasps with his hat.

Crossover podcast ep getting into the Manosphere and social media influencers from Chapo Trap House and Qanon Anonymous.

https://www.soundcloud.com/chapo-trap-house/678-for-whom-the-balls-tan-feat-julian-feeld-annie-kelly-11822

xp to the yardwork

idk how many people itt are married/tied up/have kids/etc., but god, i'll take any chore that involves some solitude. listen to a not kid-friendly band, call an old friend/family member, get some thoughts straight for a spell.

so, while the DiCaprio dating a 19 year old rumors turned out to be false (in this case), it's brought up a topic I wanted to discuss, namely men dating significantly younger women.

DiCaprio being a powerful celebrity adds another layer to it, and there was the fact that one of the women he dated he had known since age 11, adding a "grooming" factor to it, but I'm curious if it is even ok for a non-celebrity man in his 40s to date someone in their early 20s, especially since frontal lobe is still developing until age 25.

Obviously, I think context also matters, and I don't think any blanket statement could be made, but I've seen fairly compelling arguments for why this might be inherently a creepy and manipulative thing so I was interested in seeing more discussion. please no defensive "not all men" arguments.

I'm curious if it is even ok for a non-celebrity man in his 40s to date someone in their early 20s, especially since frontal lobe is still developing until age 25.

IMO it's "OK" in the "none of your goddamn business" sense, but it's "not OK" in the "yurgh, what's wrong with you" sense.

I don't think of it as "creepy and manipulative" because I don't think that gives enough credit to the young woman in the equation, who can presumably see a dude like this coming from a mile away and has made a conscious choice to go for it nonetheless. I mostly feel bad for the old man, who for whatever reason is emotionally incapable of connecting with a woman his own age, either because of some kind of Peter Pan syndrome — he doesn't want to think of himself as old, and dipping into young pussy helps him maintain his delusions — or because older women see through his bullshit (as do younger women, most likely, see above) and are less willing to put up with it and more likely to call him on it. Also, speaking strictly for myself, I'm always baffled by it, because a huge part of a relationship, for me, is having things to talk about, and I have nothing to talk about with a 22-year-old woman. We are from different planets, and I wouldn't want to live on hers.

FTR, my wife, to whom I will have been married 30 years in a few months, is only eight months younger than me. Sometimes she jokes that the span between my birthday and hers, when I'm older than she is, is when she likes me best, but she too is creeped out by dudes who pursue much younger women, and vaguely put off by the women who enter into those relationships.

what about men dating significantly younger men

a huge part of a relationship, for me, is having things to talk about, and I have nothing to talk about with a 22-year-old woman. We are from different planets, and I wouldn't want to live on hers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU7yl9R9bkY

David Duchovny evidently has a gf half his age right now and frankly good for both of them in that case

Leo still a sleazebag probably

what about men dating significantly younger men

Indeed, what about it? I'd be really interested in your perspective (or anybody else who wants to weigh in from that side of the bed).

I had a serious relationship with a twenty-three-year-old a couple years ago. I felt more self-conscious than he did tbh. His pop culture references, erudition, prose style, and composure belied his age.

While I'd never call him my boyfriend -- he lived in another state and, well, it just wasn't like that regardless -- we had, shall we say, feelings about each other.

from high school on, i've always been in relationships with women who are older than me. come to think of it, i don't think i've ever even dated a younger woman! that wasn't a conscious decision, just happened organically.

i am now officially old enough that most women under the age of 23 don't really code as sexual creatures to me. they tend to look like children.

there are exceptions! but almost any woman in that rough age bracket that i hang out with for a few days - either in the studio, via work, because of shared interests, etc - rapidly ends up feeling more like lil' sis than anything else. But then I'm not looking so maybe the world would feel differently if i weren't in a comfortable and established relationship. I doubt it tho.

Anthony Kiedis to thread

On one hand, yeah, once people are “of age” it really isn’t anyone else’s business. On the other hand, big age differences definitely can seem a bit dubious depending on circumstances. As corny as it is, the “half your age plus 8” metric seems sort of reasonable. It means minimum acceptable-age when you’re 30 is 23, 40 is 28, 50 is 33, 60 is 38, etc.

Tho tbqh, when my wife and I started dating I was 41 and she was 28, so just outside that window. My other prior girlfriends/wives had all been my age or a little older, so I felt a little self-conscious about it because I didn’t want to be perceived as older man/younger woman. But it’s never been an issue for us or anyone else as far as I know.

(Probably thanks to her maturity and my youthful spirit!)

cradle robber!

I generally don't care that much, to each his/her own... but I do wonder about jeff goldblum having a kid at aged 66

I fully recognize that the age gap I described is unusual.

My now-wife and I started dating when I was 27 and she was 20.

(Actually she was still 19 when we met, but didn't start dating until after her 20th birthday.)

Now we're 51 and 44 and it simply doesn't register as a thing.

I do wonder about jeff goldblum having a kid at aged 66

From my perspective as the 57-year-old father of a 12 year old, the only way this make sense is that he doesn't do a lot of the work.

i guess the one good thing about being on dating apps is that it forces you to consider the age question and make a decision. i'm 39, i put the low end of who i can see at 30, high at 48.

i'm also currently just striking the fuck out on the apps.

also, off-topic but on-topic for the thread, in one of the last couples therapy sessions before my ex and i split, the therapist told me that i was one of the least straight straight people she had met. i take that as a compliment, of course (and she meant it as one), but combined with my perpetually broken nose face and hair that is just straight up immature, maybe it explains my lack of success. also probably that i don't have a job, that's always frowned upon in the 39 year old scene

the therapist told me that i was one of the least straight straight people she had met.

Regarding Neanderthal's revive: I think that the public discourse rushes to apply metrics of morality (and even illegality) toward cases like DiCaprio's. I think it's a bad look and unnecessary. Claiming "grooming" and so forth is so dumb. I wish people would be quicker instead to simply define what they're seeing, in DiCaprio's dating patterns, as what it is: ugliness. It's ugly to see a middle-aged actor dating a string of younger women. It changes my personal desire to engage with DiCaprio's professional work. I don't think he's a predator, but I do think his dating patterns make him look ugly, and that it should be considered a professional liability.

I have friends who are dating younger men. Sometimes it's beautiful and sometimes it's ugly. Sometimes it's clear that the relationship is founded on deep attraction, love, shared interests. Other times it feels as if the relationship is transactional. I feel like the "half your age plus one" rule is somewhat of a basilisk. Like, if you have to do a math to determine whether or not the relationship you're in is viable, you've lost the game already.

I don't think of it as "creepy and manipulative" because I don't think that gives enough credit to the young woman in the equation, who can presumably see a dude like this coming from a mile away and has made a conscious choice to go for it nonetheless.

Great post, gyac.

Dating younger men is common in the gay male world, often a transactional relationship: the older man gets companionship and maaaaybe sex, the younger an inheritance. I've never had a friend date or hit on a teenage boy, but I've seen more than my share of that creepiness in public.

Thank you gyac, that is the perspective I was really looking for

I do remember something I'd long forgotten, that one of my high school friends, who is in fact now married to my oldest friend, dated a 34 year old when she was about 17. It felt gross to us all.

She never really brought her boyfriends around us anyway - she liked to keep friends and boyfriends in separate worlds, though she tried much harder to keep them separate as she knew people disapproved. He showed up after school one day during our rehearsal and it felt really creepy, but fortunately he didn't last long.

The one trend that skeeved me out the most were those websites which were purely countdowns to female celebrities turning 18. That isn't borne out of healthy thinking, even if they thought they were making an innocent joke.

Lindsay Lohan: "Hot, Ready, and Legal!"

Supporting the point of a specific type of men that intentionally seek younger women out to avoid women that know better...one of my ex-friend outright admitted to me his intentions, because really, in his mind he was around another guy, and what was he going to say about it.

I think it was 2008, he was in his early 30s, his girlfriend (now wife) was 19. So nothing illegal, no. But, at least at the time, it wasn't a healthy relationship.

At the time, he was one of my best friends too, but very unhealthy for me - a charming rich kid who nonetheless was controlling and narcissistic, a type of people I wound up with often in my early 20s due to my refusal to willingly see red flags in people.

I hung out with them twice after they started dating, and it was normal, they were cutesy with each other. We were all going to NYC together and told me how he'd started going to therapy as he realized he had anxiety and going through therapy now and how it had opened his eyes. She held his hand.

This felt very out of character, because this was a conservative guy who was one of those "men's men", he had often used the "you need therapy" line on one of his previous girlfriends as a pejorative dog whistle for "you're crazy!". It became clear later he was putting on a show for us.

We get to NYC, and his behavior to her completely changed. Well, he was toxic to EVERYONE, but especially her. At one point, we were at the box office for Mary Poppins, and the two of them were talking about what seats they wanted, when the woman at the counter asked if she could help, and my friend rudely shouted "we're having a private conversation!" at her, which upset his girlfriend.

After he bought her tickets, we walked outside, and she said "That was really rude to yell at the lady at the coun-" and he erupted in a frightening way, "I JUST PAID $100 FOR YOUR TICKET, AND THIS IS THE WAY YOU'RE GOING TO TALK TO ME?". Both her and I went silent. It only got worse.

She was a positive, bubbly person, but she told me in private that day that it upset her when he would just flip out at people. But she forgot it and we moved on.

The next day, she didn't feel well and we went to a minute clinic type place, and he has berating her, first for being reluctant to want to go, then yelling at her for wasting her time when she started to feel better.

Later that night, we were having a great dinner and it looked like maybe the worst was over, but then he picked a fight with the waiter over something stupid, demanded to see his manager, and I finally lost it at him, telling him that for a guy who claimed to be going to therapy, that he was doing nothing but being toxic to people the whole trip. He didn't really yell back - he lightly mocked my criticisms, but he would instead center his rage on his girlfriend for agreeing with me at the table.

He got up in a huff and demanded that neither I or her leave the waiter a tip (I gave him a huge tip anyway, but she complied).

The two of them resumed fighting outside - she was on her way to Spring Awakening, my friend and I were going to the Fantasticks. My friend abruptly broke from her and I and aggressively power walked down the street, and she looked at me, tears in her eyes, voice breaking, saying "See you later, Rob".

This dude was a huge asshole and I'd be lying if I said there was "no sign" of this previously. He was a rich kid who often got his way, he was a misogynist, a classist asshole that treated everyone he considered "beneath his station" like shit

But...this was still an escalation from what I'd seen. I'd never seen him outright explode at a girlfriend before.

But then I remembered who his last girlfriend was. A woman his age, in her 30s, a very independent woman who would not take shit from him - she was a bit of a shitty person herself in several ways, but she could utterly disarm him when he got toxic, and then dumped him.

And then I remembered something the friend said to me the day before, which seemed gross at the time, but tied it together - he said "You know why I'm going out with her? Because I can do whatever I want. She doesn't tell me what to do.". That's it.

After that trip, I only saw the friend once more, then decided I was done with him. He eventually married this girl, but I didn't go to his wedding. They are still married and have a kid. Maybe he grew up and maybe he's better now, but it doesn't change the creepy fact that he didn't like that a female his age fought to be his equal, so he deliberately sought out someone much younger, who he knew he could keep under his thumb. And he did.

And he was comfortable doing it because who was going to call him out for it? I sure didn't. I stopped being his friend but I never really called him out on the fucked up nature of his relationship. I didn't exactly have healthy views of women myself at that time...but I still knew it was wrong.

Anyway, know that was long-winded, and not wanting to take up this much space so I apologize. But these recent conversations have had me thinking about this harder - that as gyac said, it doesn't mean every significant age-gap relationship is toxic, but that older men pursuing younger women consistently may be doing so for the sake reason my friend did, and using similar methods of lavishing then with gifts in exchange for doing exactly as they say. And that maybe we should take a closer look at some of the powerful people who seem to intentionally seek out women of this age repeatedly (as opposed to a single relationship where the age gap was coincidental).

Anyway... I'm done. But appreciating today's discussion. This was a bit of a blind spot for me.

the only people i've had to hang around, like those described by neanderthal just above, were in the televised sports industry. it's a bummer because i enjoyed the job (audio stuff, down on the field with the baseball reporters) and it was extremely well compensated with lots of free time, off days, and the fringe benefit of getting to watch games at field level, right by the dugout, getting to walk around on the field and see players in the guts of the stadium and stuff.

however, pretty much every single person who worked in the field was a gigantic caricature of a misogynist asshole. i hadn't really encountered "locker room" talk before working that job, but yeah, there are definitely just awful people who are exactly like that. i guess the key for them is to find other people that are like that and then to group up together. the last gig i worked, i was helping to unpack the truck near the beginning of the day and a sports reporter walked by wearing a dress. she didn't look at the crew or interact in any way, she just walked into the stadium. when she was still, like, 20 feet away and could definitely hear it, the lead tv crew guy - the one who hires everyone and kind of manages things - goes "look at the ass on that one!" or something like that, and before i knew what was happening there were like a dozen dudes "wooing" and whistling and stuff like it was the 1930s. i didn't like that at all and i guess i couldn't hide it, and i think i was persona non grata for the rest of the day. but fuck that entire industry. everyone was like that, at every gig, in several different cities, different production crews, different events, everyone was just a horrible person. and to work in that industry, you have to be ok with that

*ok maybe not everyone. i'm remembering this sweet old cameraman who didn't seem like he was like that, and went out of his way to teach me a few things early on.

but i don't know, the thing i don't understand is how people can be part of that kind of group of people who behave that way. i suppose people think that if they themselves aren't behaving badly, then they're just a bystander to the bad actors and not at fault. maybe that's how you have to be, in some situations. but i can't stand to be around that stuff, it makes me feel incredibly guilty and, physically anxious. the question of what you're going to do the next time it comes up, whether to say something and become hated by the worst dudes on earth, or just put your head down and get through it. eventually i could not take it. there's only so many times you can just ignore it or let it pass

Stories like that are so wild to me, because I literally worked as the editor of a porn magazine for five years in the early 2000s — basically right as magazines were dying and the internet was taking over — and the office environment was nothing like that. Women who came into the office, including many actual porn stars, were treated with friendly professional respect. No hooting, no sexist jokes, no expectations that they'd show us their tits, none of that shit. The worst hooting, apelike sexism and shit-talking I've ever encountered in a workplace was when I worked in the shipping and receiving department at a Barnes & Noble.

Unperson, you made a post where you referred to “young pussy” and also where you engaged in a bit of victim-blaming. You see that, right?

The phrase “young pussy” was quite carefully chosen as a way of inhabiting the mindset of the kind of saddo who chases after women half his age, and what you are calling victim-blaming I do not agree with because I was not thinking of the woman in my reading of the scenario as a victim. But I respect your perspective, because yeah, I know plenty of women with stories of men sliding up on them when they were, like, eleven and that shit is deeply fucked up and those men should be on a list.

I’m just saying. Don’t gloat about how much better you think you are, because the post you made indicates otherwise. I had to actually decide whether I would bring that up, cos guess what? I don’t like what it says about coming to post on this thread here and nobody else having a problem with it, and sometimes even I just cannot. But then my other half kicks in, and I think “Why should I tolerate this shit?”

I had to actually decide whether I would bring that up, cos guess what? I don’t like what it says about coming to post on this thread here and nobody else having a problem with it, and sometimes even I just cannot. But then my other half kicks in, and I think “Why should I tolerate this shit?”

Maybe nobody else had a problem with it because they understood it for what it was — a rhetorical flourish, not an attitude I hold myself. But if you think I'm wrong about something, tell me. I can take it. I'm wrong about lots of things, all the time.

I’m very sure you know more about sexism than me and I was just too stupid to pick up on your sophisticated rhetoric :) Consider the floor ceded.

being the thread reviver that kicked this off, I will admit to being uncomfortable with your original post unperson for similar reasons to gyac, but I opted to say nothing and that was a mistake. not really offering any excuse there other than an "I'm sorry" for waiting for someone else to call it out, especially when we should be helping with that.

Fair enough. I thought my intent was clear, but if it wasn't, it wasn't and I apologize to anyone who was offended by my phrasing.

To all the str8 husbands/boyfriends who posted about your relationships yesterday, I genuinely beg you to do some self-examination if the only thing you're saying about the woman you love is that they put up with your shit. This is not the romantic gesture you think it is!

— April Wolfe (@AWolfeful) February 15, 2023

That is not by any means a hetero or male only phenomenon!

not “not all men” but “not all are men”

Not to go an all fours
That is the law
Are we not men?
He who breaks the law
Must go to the House of Pain

We are Devo

Crack that whip

***SPOILER ALERT!***
http://www.tcm.com/video/470002/island-of-lost-souls-1932-movie-clip-are-we-not-men/

only just seeing this discussion now --

Sometimes it's beautiful and sometimes it's ugly. Sometimes it's clear that the relationship is founded on deep attraction, love, shared interests. Other times it feels as if the relationship is transactional.

I tend to have this view that fgti posted ... also wanted to echo what they said about "ugliness" ... in some cases that I've seen, mostly in the arts, it feels vampiric. Not just talking about the goth scene, lol. It reminds me of this "tradition" in my local experimental music community. There was (until recently) a local college that was wom*n only for undergrad and had a graduate program in experimental music that would attract a good number of women, most of whom were in their 20s. They would have concerts featuring graduate student work. And there would regularly be a handful of older male musicians (late 30s - 50s) who would attend these concerts who were "interested in what the new crop of (School Name) grad students were doing. Some of this was artistic interest but in the case of a few of them there was another type of interest, and they blended in a creepy way in this context ... like older man was anxious about his artistic relevance or creative output and ... what "better" way to validate that than the attention of a much younger less experienced female musician.

And I also want to emphasize this thing that gyac said (who had the courage to be the only ilx woman to engage with this on this thread so far)

much older men who routinely pursue much younger women should be looked at askance- don’t seek out those who know better. They have radar for people who are insecure, or sheltered, or who are vulnerable in that way.

Reading all the "me too" threads (especially the catch-all one for non marquee musicians), you can see this over and over again.

But I do think that unpersonn did say something of value by bringing up agency. Because as a woman who was once the ages in question, and who had female friends who also were those ages, and many of whom were in these types of relationships when they were younger ... I lost my train of thought there ... but, basically, denying agency tends to reinforce the objectification of young women. However, to gyac's point, these tend to be women who are vulnerable and insecure. They are working through their own shit by being in these relationships, but often, because they're dealing with trauma they experienced when they were even younger ... they aren't making really great decisions by being with these vampiric/predatory men.

I feel like most of my female friends who have been in these relationships were either victims of sexual assault by a family member/teacher when they were younger (i.e. prior to hooking up with creepy older dude), or had a father/step-father who was abusive to their mother. Someone with unperson's "rhetorical flourish" might say, these women have "daddy issues."

And even though some may have, as unperson puts it
made a conscious choice to go for it nonetheless.

there is definitely a major risk of harm involved. Maybe they are aware of that risk and are just saying "fuck it, I need to work through my demons, also I can't see myself in what others call a healthy relationship, so I'm going to hook up with this older guy who can take me out to fancy restaurants and maybe advance my career, even though I have to deal with being leered at and objectified by his creepy older guy pals, and maybe that's the best I can do?" ... but the man would ideally know that he is complicit in the harm? That just because she's going for it, doesn't mean that it isn't fucked up?

all of that otm. just want to say that the same kind of dynamic applies in gay / queer contexts too. i've engaged in that kind of transactional relationship, on the younger end, and it definitely didn't lead to me feeling great about myself. i'm glad i don't have the desire to use younger people in that way now that i'm 40, not like i even could since i don't have any kind of "stature" or "reputation" in the arts to begin with, but anyway it's a total boner killer for me tbh. it feels good to just be secure and look out for other people who are also secure for possible side fun from my primary. it's also led to a blanket "don't hook up with other people who are djs" rule now. like, i can't trust myself to mix work and pleasure like that, it's just too entangled and stressful.

"don't use your workplace / field for your casual hookup playground" is a rule a lot more people should institute for themselves imo.