Talk Talk (RIP Mark Hollis)

I'm mindful of Josh's criticisms - the distinction b/w Talk Talk and a lot of post-rock and other stuff often seems largely contextual eg. here was a former pop band doing this in the eighties in england. Not that I don't think context is important and relevant but these distinctions can harden into unthinking orthodoxy where Talk Talk are obviously better than [insert post-rock band X here] but we don't really say why.

Again one of the reasons I maybe prefer Spirit of Eden is the fact that in retrospect it still sounds more startling and out-of-leftfield (likewise Colour of Spring, maybe?). Whether it's a tribute to its influence or a sign of something else, Laughing Stock is much more representative of generalist post-rock inclinations in the same way that Music Has The Right... is representative of post-intelligent IDM. This is not necessarily a bad thing, obv.

Possibly the existence of Bark Psychosis is k-necessary to Talk Talk's reputation. BP getting TT "right" (cf. [post rock band X] getting TT "wrong") is convenient mental shorthand for what is "right" about Talk Talk. Also it nicely links them into Lost Generation continuum by which they have ultra-stretched relationship to A. R. Kane et. al. --> they are not in the Sting Continuum.

i do find mark hollis' voice to be heartbreakingly beautiful, but then again i feel the same about green's voice on cupid & psyche in places, so whadda i know

Hasn't Graham Sutton explicitly said that Talk Talk were, like, his biggest formative experience? And the fact he's now working with Lee Harris must count for something too.

"like the bass in bark psychosis gives it a much more kraut/p-punk edge/ballast, and the guitars sound more like mogwai's ascension riffing (yes yes in the sense that the gang of four sounds like the rapture) than tt's brittle scrapings and plinking chimes, and it's all so much denser than the aerated (or arid?) sound of laughing stock and spirit"

Maybe this is part of the way in which BP reposition TT though - retro-wiring TT as post-post-punk. (speaking of Mogwai - has ever a band's quality been so explictly tied to how closely they reflect their predecessors???).

of the many things that can be said about t.t. here's one: i feel eslly affectionate toward the daring silence at the beginning of "spirit of eden" ... not literal silence but an extremely slow crescendo. also the endings of their last three albums are similarly understated.

i have to say that i came to t.t. like many people--in the late 90s, after they had been namedropped by j o'rourke et al, and retroactively dubbed the godfathers of postrock and whathaveyou. so i can't say in honesty that a certain narrative hasn't always been in the background while i've listened to them. but just the same all these observaions about their innovations and so on are sort of academic to me; i find their music beautiful, arresting, etc. beyond any considerations of context. that goes for the mark hollis album as well, though it's deliberately a less visceral experience.

x-post. jess i like your comments on hollis's voice. i like how he seems totally comfortable slipping into a pocket in the arrangement and then shifting back to the fore, but not shifting according to the changes....

I recall that alan and mimi of low, at least (don't know about zak), have said how much they prized these albums. I seem to remember andrew kenny from the american analog set saying something similar to me, in terms of albums that were of central importance for him ('another green world' was another, interestingly). I've probably often implicitly thought of a different kind of secret history involving the 'slowcore' and related bands of the 90s taking advantage of quiet and beauty in related ways to talk talk. that these qualities have so many other antecedent proponents within rock-oriented and -derived music and without probably made it easier for me to see those particular musical choices as not THAT striking (though certainly still marginal in some ways).

nick's piece is a case in point: i often suspect that when people invoke "god" in relation to music (not talking here about explicitly religious music) it's just a way of trying to transcend the superlatives that have become worn down through overuse. "god" is like the ultimate superlative in this case. but as always i think that rather than upping the ante on superlatives we should try to convey distinct impressions of the music itself. any narrative should probably be built up from that.

SoE
CoS
Hex
LS
MH

In that order. Which is, with the exception of MH being last (should be third, between CoS and Hex), the order I heard them in. And I've only come across all of them in the last 18 months.

Jess is remarkably OTM with his observations about Hollis' voice. I love how contrived/controlled/mannered Hollis sounds, how he refuses to follow normal patterns of vocalisation in his delivery, and how he subsumes his own presence within the music. It's definitely an acquired taste though - Emma can't stand listening to TT because of the vocals although she likes the music, whereas half the time I don't even notice they're there, as if the acquisition of the appreciation of Hollis' vocals only comes to exist when you can lose sight of them in the greater picture, and that comes through familiarity.

NB. Still waiting on Independancy...

NB2. Strange thing; I don't actually like the Talk Talk piece I did for Stylus all that much (either of them; there's another composed entirely of adjectives). I think it's far too mannered and prissy, and verges on being up its own ass at times (up my ass?- yes). Much as, yes, SoE (and LS) make me want to believe in God when I don't (can't - and believe me I've tried, faith and divinity and religion has been something I've been obsessed with for years), the pure fact is that I really fuckin' enjoy listening to SoE (more than the others listed of its type) for the visceral thrill of it (especially at volume!), the drums, the bass, the movement of the dynamics, I love the way it twists my guts and shakes my shoulders, and as such it does that better than LS, which, while incredibly beautiful, never reaches the level of fluid, physical POWER that SoE does. When I'm listening to LS I often feel as if I'm just waiting for those opening bars of New Grass as, like mr Arundel said, I'd wait for the dawn after a really frantic sleepless night (for whatever reason) which is not always pleasurable but becomes worthwhile in that one moment of sublime birth (and really, man, it is like the sun coming up, so, so much, after a storm, and not even a spectacular that you can observe from the picture-window, a dull, headache storm that crushes pressure onto your head...)...

Interesting how few women have contributed to this thread; apart from Mel it's very much been 'the sensitive boys club'. Apart from Jess, obv. Who ist not sensyteev!

Sorry!

Anyway, keep talking, this is interesting...

that is much better than the studio version I've heard.

I like spirit of eden (all the reasons for that are here) but just want to say that Hollis voice is meant to be listened to as part of a texture like james says. The lyric sheet in my copy has hollis' writing, which is a scribble, and that makes sense when you listen to the vocals.

oh jess is sensitive. oh yes he is.

Would I like Talk Talk? Some people whose opinions I value highly rate them, but then again, their name gets bandied about in the same context as some I loathe. The only thing I've heard is "It's My Life" which I always get mixed up with another 80s song, as I've not heard it in a decade.

yeah! get yr 'with the programme' and get in touch with yr 'sensitive side' NOW!

Someone answer the question... Would I like Sounds of Eden? Maybe I should add it to my list of stupidly obvious records to buy.

Hollis insistently referring to his music as ?art? to the NME, the wilful disconnection of image and music (illustrations, not photographs), the combo originality (within pop) of jazz prog folk pop (as pointed out above).

Boring story so far stuff: high sales of The Colour of Spring -> high budget for the making of Spirit of Eden -> disappeared for a coupla years -> came back with SoE (EMI erupting into fury: released a scurrilously edited ?I Believe in You? as a single at the behest of the band)! Also, an album so intricate, complex, arranged couldn?t be toured -> further discontent, rebellion!

Do Make Say Think, surely.

Ominous: intense: ghost: swells: pulses: whales: ebb, flow, overlap: lap: wax: wane: the Moon as unidentified unintended unifying image? No.

Hollis? voice: always had a non-specific urgency for me (?muted trumpet? muted) (I get a similar feeling from Johnny Marr?s guitar playing, a sense of felt regret and anticipated sorrow driving the playing, forward forward go on get there, but that?s perhaps a too idiosyncratic, personal-syncretic connection to be useful here)?

Sure, it's "tasteful" music, but it's far, far more sparse than a lot of AOR fodder of a similar mood, not to mention less repetitive. Still, who cares if it resembles AOR fodder? I'm with Jess here; it could very well be a one-off for me. So what? I'm not worried about "missing out" on a whole world of goodness -- that kind of worrying will kill you. It's like with _Gaucho_ by the Dan -- I bow at its shiny feet, but I'm not about to go surfing through piles of late 70s/early 80s smooth jazz wibble just to make sure I'm not unknowingly avoiding something life-changing. Like SoE/LS, I'll just assume it achieves its particular mood through an interesting synthesis of things many of which on their own would not appeal to me.

actually lee harris was involved in the making of hex in some way, although it's not exactly clear to me how (at the moment). i believe he and graham sutton have known each other since about 1991 (though don't quote me on that one).

as much as i love SoE and LS, i like Hex better. you never hear mark hollis and his kru breaking down into the philip glass/steve reich style video-you-were-shown-in-science-class music.

let me put forth a "nex-gen" of the SoE/LS/Hex continuum ... hood's cold house is a post-IDM take on the whole "muted" sound. hood publicly make clear their love of Bark Psychosis, and I believe Graham Sutton was initially asked to produce the record. while i don't think it's quite as aw-shit! as talk talk or BP, hood did good on that one.

steely dan : lite jazz :: talk talk : ???