Rolling Maleness and Masculinity Discussion Thread

I mean basically the way I see it is that the rough groupings of "male" and "female" are not just, like, completely made up, and that there are probably some clusters of biological traits that in turn have some cluster of influences on behavior, taste, etc. But also the range and variety within those groupings is much broader than we have often allowed, and social pressure has tended to cause a narrowing of what would otherwise be wider. E.g. men who really aren't all that excited about trucks going with the flow and pretending like they are excited about trucks, or guys that might never independently develop an interest in NFL forcing themselves to have some kind of knowledge of NFL. And I think there's probably a lot of overlap between that kind of pressure and what we call "toxic masculinity."

Also, relatedly, the specific *ways* in which certain traits, e.g. aggression, are allowed and not allowed to express themselves is very much a social thing, for example, whether the strong picking on the weak is tolerated, encouraged, or discouraged.

The only way to objectively study birth order is to have a batch of children, raise them, then kill them and have another batch.

my very first post included my own anecdotal evidence

Didnt realize you had observed the development of yr siblings' gender identity since birth, must be quite an age gap.

― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 1 November 2017 20:33 (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I made this actual response about an hour before everyone jumped on d40 ppl are being unfair imo and this is a good thread today can we chill and just be chill guys

It would be pretty funny/ironic/fitting if the maleness thread devolves into Lord of the Flies

says *man alive*

my POV on the "has anti-gender essentialism gone too far" thing is basically I'm sure we've all observed "progressive parents" trying to bring up their children in some kind of blandly gender neutral existence & their efforts often seem ignorant of the depth & power of gender roles w/in that society; and that they neglect to recognize that 'society' extends beyond their household, and that they themselves reinforce those same norms 1000 times daily for every 1000 times they think to do otherwise. in that sense, i can see critiquing the new intelligentsia consensus, but i think the problem isn't that theyve gone too far, its that they dont realize how far they (and everyone around them) really have to go (or for that matter, that we can't really "unlearn" this stuff, we can only pile more discourse on top of it)

II think that the ability to pooh-pooh physiologically-based gender differences is actually the very definition of male privilege. Beyond fine/gross motor development, differing functioning of the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, or (say) onset of sexual maturity, there are lots of socialized gender-experiences that the direct result of biological phenomena. Young men can opt out – almost entirely – from the icky conversations of maturation, and many of them literally never have to discuss/see/engage with menstruation for an entire lifetime, whereas it's a biological imperative for young (cis) women. That difference alone, magnified over a lifetime, is enormous, and while the expression of these differences plays out in social learning, the root of it is in sexual dimorphism.

"progressive parents" trying to bring up their children in some kind of blandly gender neutral existence & their efforts often seem ignorant of the depth & power of gender roles w/in that society

I can't remember if we did this point already, but in vein of how it's necessary to UNDO patriarchy and not just ignore it or pretend you can shut it out, this problem is somewhat similar to the many studies and discussions about how ineffective it is to try to make kids "color-blind" instead of purposefully studying the violence of racism. You have to grapple w it and teach it and teach strategies for not bending to the social pressures. You don't just say "Girls can like trucks too," one time and that's it, you have to live the message, however that looks in your family with gender roles and stuff. And like if there's that one relative or older friend who always tells your daughter she looks "pretty" and must be "such a good girl," you have to talk about that w your daughter and parse it out. Ditto whatever messages for boys. Invite your kids to examine stuff--you already know how smart they are!

epically OTM post, in orbit

art of this could be ohio's "autism scholarship" program which routes money to individual families to select the school/providers of their choice but not if they choose the public school (in effect resources are routed to private providers rather than the public system).

This is utterly and completely evil.

At my (public) middle school we have a "NEST" program, which mainstreams high-functioning autistic kids into regular honors classes with extra training for the staff, a higher faculty-to-student ratio, and some environmental adaptations to accommodate the NEST kids (quiet rooms, specially structured lessons, a calm and predictable schedule, minimal classroom travel, etc). It's wildly successful, for instance one student DOUBLED her test scores from the previous year. And these are hyper-involved parents, not kids who "fell through the cracks" or whatever. Public schools can do it. But like LITERALLY ANYTHING GOOD, it isn't free. It requires funding.

I was literally JUST unpacking some of this stuff with my daughter (see children's programming thread) and she said things that were way more sophisticated than anything I could have come up with at twice her age.

io, you may be unsurprised to know I brought up colorblindness as an analogy about a week ago :-) obv I think you are OTM

you don't just say "Girls can like trucks too," one time and that's it, you have to live the message, however that looks in your family with gender roles and stuff.

Yeah! This is so true –– and it's not just the conversations about gender/race/sexuality/economics/religion. It's the act of having the conversation, itself. I try to have these conversations every day with students, and often the most profound discussion happens around 'hidden' biases and powers that kids'll bring up that are (basically) invisible to me. Last week, kids brought up the tyranny of 'nice' teachers who like 'niceness' and the way in which niceness is adjudicated based on pleasant appearance, lack of obvious disability, youth, and compliance. Only because of fifty million previous conversations did they even think to bring it up, and it struck me as a triumph that they'd question something I'd been ignoring/misunderstanding my entire life.

Yay Dan! Happy to be otm w you.

Kids are always looking through the cracks in the grown-up world, because the compromises we've learned along the way are patent subterfuges to them--or at least that's what I seem to remember from being told a lot of bullshit. Personally I was obsessed with fairness, and things not being fair was like STOP THE WORLD, I HAVE DISCOVERED AN INJUSTICE. If you make kids undercover spies in a game of "Find the oppression" or however you dress it up, you'll probably have created a crack investigator.

remy, that story is so cool.

Personally I was obsessed with fairness, and things not being fair was like STOP THE WORLD, I HAVE DISCOVERED AN INJUSTICE.

haha oh man this is me, and my daughter is currently totally like this. She was complaining to us about the inherent unfairness of a class being collectively punished for the transgressions of a single student and we explained that the teacher was punishing the class collectively in an effort to apply not just her authority but peer pressure against the misbehaving student, and she was like "yeah, but what if [the student] doesn't CARE?"

I had no answer.

and I remembered that this bugged the shit out of me as a kid too.

24/7 oppression seeking must make for sunshiny childhoods

generally, my witness to injustice as a child resulted in snitching on everyone. this was not popular.

24/7 oppression seeking must make for sunshiny childhoods

It certainly seems to grant adults happy and fulfilled lives.

II think that the ability to pooh-pooh physiologically-based gender differences is actually the very definition of male privilege. Beyond fine/gross motor development, differing functioning of the ventromedial prefrontal cortex, or (say) onset of sexual maturity, there are lots of socialized gender-experiences that the direct result of biological phenomena. Young men can opt out – almost entirely – from the icky conversations of maturation, and many of them literally never have to discuss/see/engage with menstruation for an entire lifetime, whereas it's a biological imperative for young (cis) women. That difference alone, magnified over a lifetime, is enormous, and while the expression of these differences plays out in social learning, the root of it is in sexual dimorphism.

― remy bean, Wednesday, November 1, 2017 4:04 PM (fifty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

“Young men can opt out from icky conversations about maturation” seems like a massive, massive overstatement

But fwiw no one is poo pooing physiological differences, were talking about the connection between gender and physiology, which has huge ramifications for I.e. trans teenagers

and I remembered that this bugged the shit out of me as a kid too

otm, this was so infuriating to me as a kid that I got mad just typing "otm" at the start of this sentence

And (the student) never cared

I think I saw some impressive parenting today, possibly related to maleness. What do you lot think?

I've been volunteering in a charity shop. Family comes in - mam, dad, baby girl, son of about three to five - son wants an expensive toy, can't have it. The son kicked off and was hitting his dad in the leg. The parents were standing there looking attentive, listening to his points, and making fair counterpoints ('Father Christmas will bring you one', 'You've already had a toy today', etc). But they didn't react to the anger with anger at all. Just explained in simple terms why he couldn't have it and said they needed to get on and get some fish and chips. He complied, to an extent, tried to do a staying in the shop routine but then gave up and walked out with them. I feel like the son will have learned a useful lesson there more so than if they'd got angry back at him.

Have we a corporal punishment thread btw

yea we've gotten into that. "judging other parents" thread somewhere

Here's one: What do you think of parents slapping their children as punishment?

This is the thread where we judge other people's parenting

"firm but not angry" is what i always strive for - and what i rarely achieve

it must be impossible. that story above sounds good but seems just a conveniently happy ending. what if the child gets angrier or continues to go even crazier? what then? do parents actually feel they are making progress with these strategic approaches or are they just making imaginary deals with the cosmos?

like it seems to go to the heart of humanity and human behaviour to ask questions about whether people should be ignored and cajoled into see the error of their own ways or angrily corrected - even our own psychology and our own internal monologues are prob shaped deeply by our commitment to either approach or our tendency to waver between the two.

into seeing*

it just feels good to get angry tbh, a feeling which is quickly replaced by shame and revulsion

i feel like my dad or mum getting angry or raising their voice prob did regulate my behaviour. i mean it told me a line had been crossed. but then i was also v occasionally smacked as a child if i was behaving really badly, and i don't have a prob with that, so i dunno how up to date any of my thinking is on this. guess this should be on the other thread.

i guess i'm just not seeing how some placid approach will always work with children.

it doesn't always work. nothing always works.

We were four boys six years apart nuclear warheads wouldn't always have worked tbh

yeah my sister has three boys and it's p crazy. occasionally at xmas i'll have to intervene when she's out and one of them is hurling stuff at my mother or whatever - there is no communication.

it doesn't always work. nothing always works.

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Thursday, 2 November 2017 13:38 (one hour ago) Permalink

This. And also you don't even always know what "works" -- sometimes a message doesn't get absorbed til later.

i mean it told me a line had been crossed.

ymmv. It taught me that if someone yelled at me, I should be afraid. I probably still inwardly duck my head when someone starts yelling--I assume punishment is coming. Which is weird bc my parents weren't casual hitters, but it feels that way in my memory, like I should duck.

Also to bring it a tiny bit back to this thread, my dad's anger and displays of temper were the only ones allowed--no one else was allowed to have or show anger. Not even in a healthy way--any raised voice was bad and had to be stopped. This is possibly also a problem with evangelical Christianity, that "anger" is a sin and heavily discouraged. But if my dad threw something against the wall, we should all be quiet and afraid and leave the room.

That worked out great let me tell you.

it doesn't always work. nothing always works.

― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Thursday, November 2, 2017 9:38 AM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yup

yelling has diminishing returns. usually i feel like shit after yelling and no one is happy. it depends a lot on the tantrum or the behavior in question

xpost my mum is quite an angry person for various reasons. my dad would be less likely to blow up but when he did it was quite a lot of anger.

i guess it did make me feel fear if someone yelled at me but i was prob testing my parents' patience anyway - i feel p okay that there were times as a child in which i was a dick and maybe an escalation had to happen to stop me behaving that way. i don't think it's had any negative effects on me - i've never felt like it has and i've talked a lot about my parents in therapy over the years.

ambushed by realness itt

in some ways it's easier to yell (you can just shut your brain off) but you get much better results by enrolling them in what you want them to do. it's a lot more emotional work but it's more effective. ime the most important thing w/ kids (not that it's easy to do) is to have near infinite patience. sometimes it helps me to remind myself that they're just children ("she's just 6yo and she's acting like a child why am i expecting something else?") or reminding myself that i [gag] love them and am responsible for their well being. sometimes tho it's true that you're just exhausted after a long day and it's really hard to bring your full awareness + creativity to getting them to do things (like eating dinner, using the bathroom, brushing their teeth, getting into pajamas, going to sleep). at this point i've kinda broken myself of yelling (i'll occasionally raise my voice but i never swear at them or say mean things to them) but i will sometimes just shut my brain off and stand there and wonder why my repeated entreaties to do stuff are getting ignored. there's a concept in chassidus called the long short way and the short long way. the long short way is using fun and creativity to get stuff done - long to get yourself in a state where you can do it, but short bc it works and is effective. the short long way is shutting off and yelling or just being passive bc they're so easy to do but you'll ultimately never get it done.

i've done jobs for over 20 years that have required me to display infinite patience - dealing with challenging behaviours where it would be professionally unacceptable (and usually immoral imo) to start yelling at people or displaying anger or frustration. so i've learnt to be pretty good at this, if i say so myself, and it still doesn't automatically transfer over to my own children. sometimes you're just v tired and i think nobody ever knows how to push our buttons better than our loved ones. but i don't think i've ever yelled at my own kids and felt like that was a productive bit of parenting afterwards. and i've usually felt guilty as hell when i've lost my temper, especially in the longer term context that my daughter had a v explosive temper growing up and i often wonder how much of that i inculcated.

i've been thinking a lot about what remy wrote about real biological difference creating real social difference esp wrt my marriage atm. my SO is nursing which means that a) she's constantly up at night w/ the baby, b) which means she's often tired, and c) cannot really go anywhere without bringing the baby with her. by contrast i can go anywhere, can sleep through the night, feel rested, etc. this has real social consequences - she has less patience with doing work around the house, or other childcare bc she's so tired. so as a man [who doesn't nurse] i've tried to contribute more to the housework than usual, taken care of more of the other childcare duties than usual, etc. also try to be solicitous, make sure it's okay with her when i do go out, try to encourage her to take advantage of social opportunities that appear, let her nap as needed, etc. i'm not always perfect at this but i do see making my wife happy as part of my duty as a husband/man. nb that i don't mean to exclude ppl who have nursing SO's who are not males, just that for me personally this is a part of my obligation as a male.

Cool cool. I think the important thing for our partners in the micro view is that we support them and provide the needed resources. In the macro view of what is masculinity etc, maybe the important thing is to work to uncouple some roles from gender, which I think you clearly sort of started to do, Mordy, by purposefully using inclusive language ("people who...are not males") showing that each of us knows that our experiences aren't universal.

i try to speak in a way that my audience will be receptive

^^ words to live by

I am only receptive to complete sentences fyi