you gave your kid a BAG OF OREOS and a juicebox for her fucking lunch
― PLATYPUS OF DOOM (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 19:52 (five years ago) link
child protection is a good pretend rationale for another thread of prissy moralistic veiled bigotry
― Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln (nakhchivan), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 19:58 (five years ago) link
how dare they let that horrible man hack into their baby monitor!!!!
― sarahell, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 19:59 (five years ago) link
that whole story is lol
― PLATYPUS OF DOOM (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:06 (five years ago) link
prissy moralistic veiled bigotry
(considers the source of this inspirational quote. moves on.)
― Aimless, Tuesday, 29 April 2014 20:10 (five years ago) link
“All that junk she’s buying is just loaded with sugar, too,” said Gaither, identifying with uncanny speed another critical flaw in her fellow shopper’s grocery selection. “No wonder her kids are acting out like that.”
― Little Saint Hugh of Lincoln (nakhchivan), Thursday, 1 May 2014 17:09 (five years ago) link
looooove being gay just so I can judge other people's parenting.
― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 1 May 2014 17:15 (five years ago) link
loooooove being human just so I can judge other people's parenting.
― Euler, Thursday, 1 May 2014 17:16 (five years ago) link
nah when you're gay the difference is couples wanna hang with you because you don't have kids stories to share
― guess that bundt gettin eaten (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 1 May 2014 17:17 (five years ago) link
do you want some context for my tongue-in-cheek thread nakh or do you just wanna play superior
― PLATYPUS OF DOOM (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 1 May 2014 17:30 (five years ago) link
irl I don't talk to anyone about my kids, & I shun people who want to talk about those sorts of things, so I'm just treating others as I want to be treated.
my own kids are obviously the best but no one else irl needs to hear about that. online it's a different story of course, it's easy to ignore, but irl convos demand too much attention for anyone to be bored
― Euler, Thursday, 1 May 2014 17:31 (five years ago) link
or do you just wanna play superior
does he ever play anything else?
― it definitely wasn't designed to be a pants pocket player (stevie), Thursday, 1 May 2014 18:44 (five years ago) link
I have no idea, never paid attention to him
― PLATYPUS OF DOOM (Shakey Mo Collier), Thursday, 1 May 2014 18:48 (five years ago) link
lol somehow through the onion article I got to this:https://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/the-parenting-move-i-couldn-t-help-but-judge-192911788.html
― Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 1 May 2014 20:04 (five years ago) link
The trend of judging chocolate milk should fucking die.
― how's life, Thursday, 1 May 2014 20:09 (five years ago) link
I love that *that* is the parenting move she *couldn't help but judge.* "I've held my tongue for years, but chocolate flavored drink?! I can stand it no more!"
― Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 1 May 2014 20:12 (five years ago) link
my 7yo niece has atrocious table manners, interrupts conversation constantly, and is granted nearly every whim by by my sister. I judge in silence.
― images of war violence and historical smoking (Dr Morbius), Thursday, 1 May 2014 20:17 (five years ago) link
is the lego movie thread about judging people's parenting for paying to have their children marketed to or is it worse than that?
― sarahell, Friday, 2 May 2014 21:35 (five years ago) link
not really altho there's some of that. I don't really see how its any different from any other blockbuster in terms of marketing tbh - apart from the fact that it was pretty fun to watch and was cleverly constructed. which is not something I ever say about Hollywood blockbusters, ftr.
― PLATYPUS OF DOOM (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 May 2014 22:03 (five years ago) link
also in true thread spirit - parent the other day who was playing on phone while 5yo child bullied a baby I JUDGE THEE
― PLATYPUS OF DOOM (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 2 May 2014 22:04 (five years ago) link
The one that I hate (yet still sometimes do when I'm out of energy) is the half-hearted "cut it out" followed by... no follow-through.
― schwantz, Friday, 2 May 2014 22:20 (five years ago) link
"A diet fueled by food stamps is making South Texans obese but leaving them hungry:" http://www.washingtonpost.com/sf/national/2013/11/09/too-much-of-too-little/
― brimstead, Saturday, 3 May 2014 00:12 (five years ago) link
^for the thread starter
That 'linda, listen' vid just makes me think of how many time that kid saw his dad argue with his mom. And everyone thinks its sooo funny
― Dreamland, Saturday, 3 May 2014 00:23 (five years ago) link
― Dreamland, Saturday, 3 May 2014 00:24 (five years ago) link
I drank a chocolate flavored box drink every morning when I was 5-6 and I turned out fine except for my permanent physical and mental disabilities.
― smhphony orchestra (crüt), Saturday, 3 May 2014 04:28 (five years ago) link
i've heard that you're cute, at least
― mookieproof, Saturday, 3 May 2014 04:47 (five years ago) link
parent whose child took a shit in the shower at the public pool and left it for someone else to clean up - I JUDGE THEE
― Οὖτις, Wednesday, 14 May 2014 15:33 (five years ago) link
― schwantz, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 19:17 (five years ago) link
I did some LOLing.
― carl agatha, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 19:34 (five years ago) link
here, I'll do some judging, too:
Jeff and I were out and about with the kid and a woman was shopping with her toddler and presumably the toddler's grandmother, and the woman picked up the kid and I don't know what happened, but the woman yelled, "OW! Molly!" then put the toddler down and said, "I am DONE WITH YOU." And the toddler cried some fat sad toddler tears and raised her arms up to her mom, who was not having it. Grandma to the rescue.
NOW I don't know what Molly did. She may have stabbed her mom in the face with an OXO Tot baby knife for like the tenth time that day. And I don't have a toddler yet. I have a cute, squishy infant who most of the time is pretty chill and easy to handle (which isn't to say that I haven't been bitten on the nipple or bashed in the mouth with a cute little forehead or kicked in the tit so I get that babies hurt sometimes) and I am generally a big time cuddler but man alive seeing that toddler cry and reach for her mom was rough.
― carl agatha, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 19:42 (five years ago) link
i think the most common mistake parents make w/misbehavior is overreacting to something a toddler doesn't understand is wrong or why it's wrong, like i think it's pretty understandable but at the same time you've got to do the calm and kind explanation thing as opposed to the verbal tongue-lashing or silent treatment or even the "time out" (which i think is kind of not partic helpful tbqh.)
― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Wednesday, 6 August 2014 20:12 (five years ago) link
also basically i think it's weird to not respond immediately to any time your kid is crying, i guess the theory is you're trying to show them you won't give in or maybe teaching them independence but i think it's pretty wrongheaded. but also some people think little kids are manipulative and not merely scared!
― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Wednesday, 6 August 2014 20:16 (five years ago) link
That makes sense to me. It's like the whole mindset that you shouldn't pick up a crying baby because the baby is trying to manipulate you. I mean, the baby IS trying to manipulate you if you want to look at it that way, but only in the same way you are trying to manipulate a restaurant server when you ask for a menu and a glass of water.
So far, I am completely unable to not respond to our child when she's crying. "Cry it out" is right off the table for us, although I'm not saying I won't get to a point where it feels like the right (or only) thing to do.
― carl agatha, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 20:27 (five years ago) link
imho i don't think it's ever 100% necessary, but then again we're a couple of hippies over here, we were cosleeping with him for two years until he decided on his own he wanted to sleep in his bed one night and then he never looked back.
― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Wednesday, 6 August 2014 20:32 (five years ago) link
I think it's a matter of what works for the kid and for the parents. If the parents are on the edge of sleep deprived psychosis because they are up until 11 trying to comfort a child to sleep, then up two more hours trying to do all of the household chores they couldn't do because they spent three hours putting the kid to bed and can't take two three hour naps throughout the day, crying it out sounds pretty necessary and is probably less harmful than having cranky zombie parents.
But I'm hoping that we won't need to do it because it might kill me.
― carl agatha, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 20:50 (five years ago) link
true, we were zombies for awhile. though not really that cranky!
― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Wednesday, 6 August 2014 20:57 (five years ago) link
ha, i stopped judging parents who "cry it out" when i realized that our dedicated effort to avoid "cry it out" has probably resulted in more many more hours of crying than our friends' kids who did cry it out
― marcos, Wednesday, 6 August 2014 21:03 (five years ago) link
We do a hybrid thing where we go in after 5 minutes and put the pacifier back in and rub the belly for a second then leave again. Then wait 10 minutes and do the same thing. Then 15. None of our three kids went longer than the 15 minute mark. Definitely lessens the blow (for me) and lets them know you are still there for them. After two or three nights they were good to go you just lay em down and they go right to sleep (for the most part). We wouldn't do this until they were at least five or six months tho. Works for us.
― Strictly EZ Snappin' Nhex (Spottie), Wednesday, 6 August 2014 23:20 (five years ago) link
Same here--go in very fast the first couple of times, soothe and re-dummy and check nappy/teeth/hunger, then leave it for a bit longer the next time and usually there's calm after a couple of minutes
― ornamental cabbage (James Morrison), Thursday, 7 August 2014 00:55 (five years ago) link
― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Wednesday, August 6, 2014 9:12 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― LIKE If you are against racism (omar little), Wednesday, August 6, 2014 9:16 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
This is pretty much how I want to parent.
― "trough lolly"??? (stevie), Thursday, 7 August 2014 12:22 (five years ago) link
Holy shit at that whole "I am DONE WITH YOU" episode upthead. I'm about to cry fat toddler tears just thinking about it.
― how's life, Thursday, 7 August 2014 12:28 (five years ago) link
I know. I want to be empathetic to the mother because mothers get so much pressure to be perfect and all that and I don't know her life but it made me super sad, too.
― carl agatha, Thursday, 7 August 2014 12:41 (five years ago) link
my littlest played a "game" she called the "Old Buffet" when she was a toddler. it involved chasing us down and then biting us. we were done with that too.
― Euler, Thursday, 7 August 2014 13:18 (five years ago) link
also short from abuse, violence, or emotional or other kinds of neglect, there is very little i will judge a parent on. this shit's fucking HARD. i don't care how much of a hippie you are. everybody is exhausted. toddlers are demanding as fuck. it is easy to snap or be irritable if you are on such little sleep and your kid is high-strung and unrelenting.
― marcos, Thursday, 7 August 2014 13:27 (five years ago) link
what i will judge is people without kids judging other parents (again, short of the abuse/violence/neglect/etc). i 100% think this is something that is difficult to understand if you haven't lived it.
― marcos, Thursday, 7 August 2014 13:28 (five years ago) link
There are all kinds of way to be a bad parent without being abusive, neglectful or violent, though.
― Star Gentle Uterus (DJP), Thursday, 7 August 2014 14:13 (five years ago) link
yea i might be overstating it a little. just saying that everybody will snap at their kids unfairly at some point, probably many times. probably even say some really hurtful shit at some point. it's not great but i think it's shitty to judge it without first having some empathy and self-awareness
― marcos, Thursday, 7 August 2014 14:17 (five years ago) link
Oh I'm judging everyone. Everyone!!! I never say anything though, so no one ever knows
― Jeff, Thursday, 7 August 2014 14:19 (five years ago) link
― "trough lolly"??? (stevie), Thursday, 7 August 2014 14:20 (five years ago) link
i took a picture of my cat when he was seriously ill and at the vet for my wife who was at work at the time because she wanted to see how he looked. i then deleted it from my phone because it seemed unseemly and weird to have a picture of a my sick cat.
― harold melvin and the bluetones (jim in vancouver), Tuesday, 8 November 2016 22:00 (two years ago) link
When my daughter was in the hospital with pneumonia, I don't think I posted anything to facebook, and I post a fucking lot
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Tuesday, 8 November 2016 22:01 (two years ago) link
I would not do that.
― Jeff, Tuesday, 8 November 2016 22:11 (two years ago) link
Would you post to facebook photos of your kid sleeping in hospital bed, admitted for meningitis, as well as hospital mask selfies, y/n?
appropriate use of this thread fwiw cuz fuck no
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 8 November 2016 22:19 (two years ago) link
You don't even use Facebook at all!
Not sure if I'd do this. Maybe? When my kid was in the hospital for surgery back in '08, I didn't. Nowadays, maybe? I think I put pictures on Flickr.
― schwantz, Tuesday, 8 November 2016 22:55 (two years ago) link
true this was an easy one to answer for me lol :)
― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 8 November 2016 22:57 (two years ago) link
but seriously if one of your boys said "please don't post this on facebook!" I assume you would respect his wishes...
Not if it was hilarious.
― Mad Piratical (The Cursed Return of the Dastardly Thermo Thinwall), Tuesday, 8 November 2016 23:01 (two years ago) link
― schwantz, Tuesday, 8 November 2016 23:53 (two years ago) link
standard line I hear from childcare professionals (ed directors, Kaiser pediatrics, etc.) is that any screentime prior to the age of 2 or so is not recommended
more science: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2017/05/170504083141.htm
― Οὖτις, Thursday, 4 May 2017 23:31 (two years ago) link
Still did it. Judge away!
― Jeff, Friday, 5 May 2017 00:22 (two years ago) link
Infant Hercules happily strangled a pair of snakes that slithered into his crib at night, still, no one ever criticizes his parents, Zeus and Alcmene, as bad parents.
― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Friday, 5 May 2017 01:28 (two years ago) link
Are you sure about that
― Οὖτις, Friday, 5 May 2017 01:38 (two years ago) link
A google search on: Zeus Alcmene "bad parents", returns 15 unique results, none of which include criticism of their bad parenting. The top search result asserts that the quack of a duck cannot echo, so you can see the high quality of these results right there. So, coupled with my never having heard a peep of criticism directed at Zeus and Alcmene as Heracles parents, I'm reasonably sure. Not positively, though.
― a little too mature to be cute (Aimless), Friday, 5 May 2017 02:05 (two years ago) link
IDK if this is the right thread, but an acquaintance's two sons (maybe like ages 6 and 8) are currently "live" on facebook playing with random snap filters, and the whole thing just creeps me out. Don't know if it's parent-sanctioned or not.
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Friday, 10 November 2017 21:07 (one year ago) link
i'm always perhaps not-irrationally humiliated on behalf of any kids who are bullied and whose parents subsequently step forward to talk to news organizations about the bullying going on. or a story where "so and so was bullied, so a hundred big rig drivers escorted her to school." i mean i tell ya, i there are arguably some circumstances where it's certainly called for, but as far as the others after the 24 hr news cycle passes i'm not sure it does much good to say the least. but then again i'm also always shocked at how parents don't talk to other parents about issues between their kids. i guess that shit does get awkward.
― omar little, Monday, 22 January 2018 23:37 (one year ago) link
Not really judging. Just observing.
Two friends recently adopted two children, a brother and a sister. They're older, 6 and 8, and have been going through the foster care system for much of their lives.
For obvious reasons, they're required to be mum about the children's identities on social media, at least until everything gets final some time this summer. The mom usually posts either the boy or the girl icon from her phone instead of their names when she mentions them in her posts. One instagram post was "Playing with the dogs! Fido and Bowser having the time of their lives with their new friends!" --- and the photo was of the dog looking at someone off-camera.
The girl's birthday was the other day, and the shots posted were from the back. There was a blurry shot of a shadowy figure blowing out candles, but you couldn't see her face.
I can't say anything to my friends, but it's really interesting to watch this. It's like watching home movies of Mohammad growing up. And yeah, I kinda wish more people would do this too, for their kids' privacy and also because they're not as cute as mine.
― pplains, Wednesday, 24 January 2018 01:06 (one year ago) link
A whole lot of people I know really do seem to think: "hey, this marriage/relationship has been under tremendous stress since we had our first kid; I think a second one will sort everything out just fine"
― Mince Pramthwart (James Morrison), Wednesday, 24 January 2018 05:38 (one year ago) link
There's a super sweet girl who takes the bus with K (both are in kindergarten) who I am fond of because she was the reason K calmed her anxieties about taking the bus, and they always sit together. The mom is a lawyer and the dad I'm not sure but apparently unemployed rn, and they have a nanny but the nanny has to take their younger one to preschool/pick her up so the dad handles the bus. He's already slept through pick-up time twice this year, so that our babysitter wound up having to bring the girl home with K, and it's really fucking sad. He seems like a harmless but losery older guy (for a dad of two small kids, like maybe 50), and I'm assuming he's some kind of benign drunk bc how the fuck else does that happen.
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 1 February 2018 17:13 (one year ago) link
mom is v nice too. It's just, jesus fucking christ, you are unemployed, your wife makes enough to pay for a nanny and preschool for your younger one while you sit at home, all you have to fucking do is PICK UP YOUR OWN DAUGHTER AT THE BUS
― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive), Thursday, 1 February 2018 17:15 (one year ago) link
*i am not a parent*former coworker has a daughter that started college in Arizona recently (mom is still in Sacramento).but it seems like every time the daughter gets any kind of ailment, however minor, she calls her mom ...her mom googles webmd etc, then her MOM calls around doctor’s offices in AZ to find out if there are appointments, then her MOM gives her directions to the doctors office etcit’s insane. if i had called my mom in college with a cold/rash/allergy it would have ended with her telling me to go to the doctor. sure she’d check if i was ok later but stillthe whole point of yr kid going away to college aside from getting an education is to gain independence etc. how the fuck are you going to do that if you are 18 and cant make your own doctor appointment ffs... and if you as a parent won’t set a boundary to HELP her do that on her own? ugh
― Squeaky Fromage (VegemiteGrrl), Friday, 2 February 2018 00:55 (one year ago) link
Bit surprised doctors will deal with the parent of an 18-year-old because patient confidentiality.
― Madchen, Friday, 2 February 2018 06:21 (one year ago) link
I don't have any kids that old, but I wonder how far HIPPA goes when the parent's insurance is covering the adult "child".
― pplains, Friday, 2 February 2018 14:06 (one year ago) link
man alive that guy sounds like maybe hes in the grips of depression?
― Right column Leftist (sunny successor), Thursday, 8 February 2018 14:07 (one year ago) link
i recognize this thread is more for low-level disagreements about parenting, but i wasn't sure where else to link this story and discuss it. maybe it belongs more in a true crime type thread but idk it's related to this as well. it seems like there were so many warning signs of abuse and neglect and cruelty, and it all led to this.
I wonder about recognizing those signs in other families.
― omar little, Thursday, 12 April 2018 18:11 (one year ago) link
God, that's all so fucked.
― how's life, Thursday, 12 April 2018 18:24 (one year ago) link
― Right column Leftist (sunny successor), Thursday, 12 April 2018 19:25 (one year ago) link
Don't know how widespread this is, but a coworker was lamenting that a number of the parents in her social circle have Amazon's Alexa read to their children at bedtime.
― early rejecter, Wednesday, 18 April 2018 14:53 (one year ago) link
― sleeve, Wednesday, 18 April 2018 14:55 (one year ago) link
lol, a few months ago I showed up to chaperone a field trip and my daughter's first grade teacher had pulled up a youtube of someone else reading a children's book to keep the kids occupied while she took care of some other task. I kinda judged.
― how's life, Wednesday, 18 April 2018 15:02 (one year ago) link
we read books to our younger daughter at bedtime but then after a few books i'll put on a story on spotify and let it play while she falls asleep. it's just background noise to help her keep quiet and go to sleep. we did the same thing with our older daughter except with music.
― na (NA), Wednesday, 18 April 2018 15:03 (one year ago) link
Oh, my daughter can't fall asleep without Neil Degrasse Tyson's Cosmos on in the background. I'm sure I'm judgeable for that.
― how's life, Wednesday, 18 April 2018 15:04 (one year ago) link
I have had Alexa read bedtime stories. It’s great.
― Jeff, Wednesday, 18 April 2018 15:38 (one year ago) link
https://bedtime.webguild.com/I use this skill, you can write your own custom stories and put in your kids name.
― Jeff, Wednesday, 18 April 2018 15:41 (one year ago) link
Huh - when she was talking about it I was imagining a digital voice reading in a flat tone which seemed a little creepy; for some reason it didn't occur to me that they could just be asking Alexa to play an audio version of a story. That doesn't seem quite so bad as a supplement to (not replacement for) human interaction.
― early rejecter, Wednesday, 18 April 2018 15:45 (one year ago) link
I listened to audio books all through my childhood and don't think it was a bad thing
― mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Wednesday, 18 April 2018 23:24 (one year ago) link
My terrifying daughters left audiobooks on in their rooms the whole time they were doing other stuff INCLUDING READING. I once asked and yes, they were following both stories.
― startled macropod (MatthewK), Wednesday, 18 April 2018 23:44 (one year ago) link
Our daughter listens to audiobooks when she goes to sleep, but we always read to her ourselves first. I have fond memories of doing the same when I was a kid--I had the absolutely splendid Nicol Williamson reading of The Hobbit on cassette, and the 8-hr radio play version of the first Star Wars movie, on cassette, and listened to them until the tapes broke.
― Mince Pramthwart (James Morrison), Thursday, 19 April 2018 01:26 (one year ago) link
Wow: the Nicol Hobbit is on Internet Archive: https://archive.org/details/NicolWilliamsonHobbit
― Mince Pramthwart (James Morrison), Thursday, 19 April 2018 01:27 (one year ago) link
― sleeve, Friday, 20 April 2018 22:13 (one year ago) link
i judge a bit here, i feel like if one thing is going to be traumatic and bad for the kid it's the damned viral news story (somewhat related to what i posted upthread about parents going to the media and putting their kid front and center regarding bullying situations.)
― omar little, Wednesday, 24 October 2018 21:29 (nine months ago) link
I am judge jury and executioner for the no-shows though
― stet, Wednesday, 24 October 2018 23:16 (nine months ago) link
When the boy turned 8 last year, we had one kid show up at the party. They were half an hour late and hadn't RSVP'd.
Kid had told his mom that he had been invited to a party. He wasn't sure of the time, wasn't completely firm on the location. But his mom threw caution to the wind and managed to get there - with present- before it was all over.
We printed out invitations and everything. I think it's just kids being unreliable (because they are kids.) Goodness knows how many times I've found a crumpled invitation in the back of the backpack, inviting him to a party three weeks ago.
(This year, we had 3 officially RSVP. One of them cancelled at the last minute, but one of the other guys brought his brother with him.)
― pplains, Wednesday, 24 October 2018 23:48 (nine months ago) link
My son is seven and has had one (1) birthday party. He's disabled and nonverbal, but so are a lot of his classmates. We did evites, physical invitations, and reminder emails. We rented a fucking moon bounce, yo.
Almost no one rsvpeed. Almost everyone came to the party. But that "almost everyone" arrived 30 to 45 minutes into a 2-hour party.
― (I'm Always Touched by Your) Presence, Beer (Ye Mad Puffin), Thursday, 25 October 2018 00:01 (nine months ago) link
― stet, Wednesday, October 24, 2018 4:16 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
agree on that
― omar little, Thursday, 25 October 2018 15:47 (nine months ago) link
the walk, the news story, the kid being named....i feel like this is all legalized child abuse.
― omar little, Friday, 7 December 2018 17:35 (eight months ago) link
that road seems a little unsafe to walk along for 5 miles in the half-light
wonder where she could have learned to be a bully
― illegal economic migration (Tracer Hand), Friday, 7 December 2018 21:39 (eight months ago) link
― Οὖτις, Friday, 7 December 2018 22:06 (eight months ago) link
btw the woman ref'd way upthread that hating pregnancy/babies and married a Star Trek LARPER is now a divorced single mom because the LARPER cheated on her and is moving to Arizona to be an actor. :( so now my judgment has been transformed into simple pity.
― Οὖτις, Friday, 7 December 2018 22:08 (eight months ago) link
People who are already stressed out and their marriage crumbling after child #1 should not try for #2 in the vague hope it will somehow fix things.
― Mince Pramthwart (James Morrison), Saturday, 8 December 2018 02:57 (eight months ago) link