Great albums Robert Christgau hates

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Is there a Chuck Eddy thread like this? That'd be funny...

& yeah xgau pretty much reviews them as they appear, but as the VV column is sporadic often he's a couple of months late.

gaz (gaz), Sunday, 8 December 2002 21:09 (twenty-one years ago) link

basically he'd be a god if he A)understood the positive qualities of metal (some would also argue west coast rap & techno - not me), B)wasn't handing out D. Boon Memorial A's to every intelligent leftie who made half-way listenable album, and C)if he didn't indulge in so much hero worship (his oh-so-quotable cynicsm towards most bands make his over-glorification of a few artists all the more horrifying).

Also, if you rip him (or other critics) on record he'll eventually give you a tongue bath of A's (see Lou Reed, Sonic Youth, Patti Smith, Public Enemy).

still makes my top five favorite critics.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 9 December 2002 01:14 (twenty-one years ago) link

I guess noone noticed this review, written post-ILM appearance, in which Christgau adds nuance and a modicum of grudging respect to his views on French culture. Fair play to the Dean, I say.

THE ROUGH GUIDE TO PARIS CAFÉ MUSIC
(World Music Network import)
Great food, great wine, great countryside. Beautiful paintings and fine cinema. Bohemia soi-meme. Fairly belle langue. Cool esprit. But then, over on the other side, le snobisme, as epitomized by both the academy (a French invention) and "theory" (a French brand name). As for music, not so hot. In the classical world, nobody would rank France with Germany or Italy, and though chanson's structural and procedural contributions to pop are major, it doesn't travel, in part due to its lyrical raison d'etre and in part due to whatever gives Italians the tunes and Germans the big ideas. With help from Auvergne laborers and Italian immigrants, chanson evolved into the danceable accordion-equipped style called musette, which flourished in the '20s and '30s and has been compiled on a Paris Musette series I'll dig out again as well as two Music Club discs I'll now bury. This typical Rough Guide potpourri ignores intrastylistic continuities and favors revivalists (hiding the older, simpler stuff at the end). Droll, impassioned, tuneful, gay, its limitations are French limitations—too much cocked eyebrow, not enough baby got back. But as mood music for that mystery merlot or soundtrack for a drive to Quebec City, mais oui—just the travelogue a day tripper needs.

Ben Williams, Monday, 9 December 2002 01:16 (twenty-one years ago) link

Awww, Christgau thinks I have Big Ideas :)

Daniel_Rf (Daniel_Rf), Monday, 9 December 2002 01:31 (twenty-one years ago) link

only band on his "new wave" list that makes me cry that he missed them is the Swell Maps. A more joyous (though admittedly more indulgent) take on his faves Pavement.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Monday, 9 December 2002 01:33 (twenty-one years ago) link

I love techno myself, but his not caring doesn't bother me as much as I'd once imagined it would, because he so thoroughly cares about so much else that it's moot. I find tons of good records through his recommendations, and on certain things (African music especially, and indie rock a lot of the time) I'm almost never disappointed with his likes. I do think he gives Alanis Morissette way too much credit, though (and Pink a little too much, but I like her too).

M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 9 December 2002 06:32 (twenty-one years ago) link

two months pass...
I just don't know what he has against "Golden Lady."

Eric H., Saturday, 22 February 2003 21:12 (twenty-one years ago) link

Sugar Ray's Sugar Ray is another whut-the? dud. Though I realize I'm probably alone on this one.

Anthony Miccio (Anthony Miccio), Saturday, 22 February 2003 21:24 (twenty-one years ago) link

lets not have a 700+ post thread this time plz!

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Saturday, 22 February 2003 21:25 (twenty-one years ago) link

neither do I! it's not my favorite song on the album anymore but it was for a long time. maybe it's the "I'd like to go there" line, found it softheaded or something? (gee, Stevie softheaded? who'da thunk?)

M Matos (M Matos), Saturday, 22 February 2003 21:30 (twenty-one years ago) link

just wanted to add (even though james blount already commented on it):

the idea that it takes a nation of millions to hold us back "didn't fuck with the sound too much" of its predecessor strikes me as a very odd thing to read.

gygax!, Saturday, 22 February 2003 21:43 (twenty-one years ago) link

I thought the complaint about Golden Lady was pretty clear from the rest of the review - too cliched, or too vague. And it's also not clear he actually dislikes it.

But also, didn't he raise the grades on some of those Stevie albums? Does that mean the reviews should be taken with a grain of salt?

gabbneb (gabbneb), Saturday, 22 February 2003 21:51 (twenty-one years ago) link

That's true... coming off the heels of the one-two-three hit of overt social commentary from "Too High" through "Living for the City," "Golden Lady" indeed risks sounding hopelessly maudlin. But at the same time, it's also an affirmation of hope (now I'm the one resorting to vague cliches.)

(It's also very true that he didn't exactly say he disliked it -- it's just that when someone for whom "Golden Lady" is among their top ten or so favorite songs reads someone calling it the worst song on the album, he immediately takes the defensive positon.)

Hey MM (I just sent you a classic out-of-the-blue you-don't-know-me email yesterday), what IS your favorite on the album now? For me, if it weren't "Golden Lady," it would be "Too High."

Eric H., Monday, 24 February 2003 15:49 (twenty-one years ago) link

He dislikes Scott Walker. There's a Thread Connection waiting to happen, you know.

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 24 February 2003 19:51 (twenty-one years ago) link

"Living for the City." worst on the album is "Visions," which I find way way more softheaded than "Golden Lady" (though it does have a pretty hard core, which is why I like it)

M Matos (M Matos), Monday, 24 February 2003 20:07 (twenty-one years ago) link

Re: West Coast hip hop: The first Warren G got a B+, and the Coup have a good GPA, lately.

I wish Christgau hadn't tuned out on the DKs before Plastic Surgery Disasters (where "Halloween" now vindicates my initial, and long faded, fandom), but that's what you get for loving another mammal's scribblings.

Otherwise, sometimes when the Dean insults fans of a particular band, it somehow makes them (or in this case, me) feel honored to have his ear:

Imperial FFRR [Teenbeat, 1992]
You read it here first: the scattered actual "pop" songs on this 11-cut album--the one about eating pussy is the most enthusiastic--tend to break down into long, repetitive, self-consciously inept codas, which blend in the mind's ear with the scattered instrumentals per se. It would be wrong to call such passages drones, because drones propel, and propulsion would be catering to the hoi polloi--"patterns" is quite kind enough. Cool people whose hobby is inept bands seem to think these whatchamacallems apotheosize self-consciously amateurish charm. If you're among them, get a life. C

Pete Scholtes, Monday, 24 February 2003 22:08 (twenty-one years ago) link

five months pass...
Here's the only review I can think of offhand where Christgau was just plain wrong:

Propaganda [Island, 1975]
Admirers of these self-made twerps certainly don't refer to them as pop because they get on the AM--for once the programmers are doing their job. So is it because they sing in a high register? Or because a good beat makes them even more uncomfortable than other accoutrements of a well-lived life?; "Never turn your back on mother earth," they chant or gibber in a style unnatural enough to end your current relationship or kill your cacti, and I must be a natural man after all, because I can't endure the contradiction. C-

Of course, the thing that he somehow missed here is that the point of "Never Turn Your Back On Mother Earth" was "Or she'll fucking stab you in it, that traitorous bitch." Which doesn't make it a great song (though it is) or Propaganda a great album (I'd give it a typical Sparks hit-or-miss B+), but does bespeak a lack of close listening.

Other than that, whatever. I agree with some things he says, and disagree with others. It happpens. I find my biggest general difference with him is that he admires a certain strain of punk -- The Vibrators, Fluffy, The Hives, The White Stripes, NOFX, The Pixies, Sleater-Kinney -- that I don't dislike but find overly foresquare (or perhaps four/four-square) for my tastes. Plus, he underrates John Darnielle. But who doesn't?

The only real problem with Christgau is that 10 other critics didn't have the intestinal fortitude to embark on the same lifelong listen-to-everything-that-matters quest that he did back in 1970, and so you're left with his opinions as being sort of a default consensus narrative. Given that, I'd say we're lucky that his opinions are as generally sane as they are -- as much as I enjoy Bangs or Marsh or Marcus, I shudder to think what they'd have come up with had they evinced the same dedication to completism. As for his writing, Christgau's my favorite writer in any realm ever, except for Charles Schulz, who beats him by miles. Guess I'm just a fan of atomized narrative, y'know?

Jesse Fuchs, Friday, 15 August 2003 15:21 (twenty years ago) link

he gave Tallahassee a straight-up A, so I doubt he underrates him much

M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 15 August 2003 15:53 (twenty years ago) link


Great food, great wine, great countryside. Beautiful paintings and fine cinema. Bohemia soi-meme. Fairly belle langue. Cool esprit. But then, over on the other side, le snobisme, as epitomized by both the academy (a French invention) and "theory" (a French brand name). As for music, not so hot. In the classical world, nobody would rank France with Germany or Italy, and though chanson's structural and procedural contributions to pop are major, it doesn't travel, in part due to its lyrical raison d'etre and in part due to whatever gives Italians the tunes and Germans the big ideas. With help from Auvergne laborers and Italian immigrants, chanson evolved into the danceable accordion-equipped style called musette, which flourished in the '20s and '30s and has been compiled on a Paris Musette series I'll dig out again as well as two Music Club discs I'll now bury. This typical Rough Guide potpourri ignores intrastylistic continuities and favors revivalists (hiding the older, simpler stuff at the end). Droll, impassioned, tuneful, gay, its limitations are French limitations—too much cocked eyebrow, not enough baby got back. But as mood music for that mystery merlot or soundtrack for a drive to Quebec City, mais oui—just the travelogue a day tripper needs.

What an asshole. These are just his superficial, idiosyncratic impressions, written in language that tries to render them universal and absolute. I know, I know, it's tongue in cheek or something.

amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 15 August 2003 15:57 (twenty years ago) link

Ah yes, French culture, good mood music for a day's drive North. For me? Non, pour tout le monde, bien sur!

amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 15 August 2003 15:58 (twenty years ago) link

Still underrated. Tallahassee is -- in my brain, from which all objective truth originates -- the best album of this century so far, with the possible exceptions of Love and Theft and the original Playstation 1 version of Dance Dance Revolution. Plus, he's not willing to listen through the low-fi on Darnielle's 85 other sub-brilliant to brilliant releases.

Apologies in advance if this ends up getting posted twice. My internet is pretty dodgy at the moment.

Jesse Fuchs, Friday, 15 August 2003 16:00 (twenty years ago) link

what does MOR mean?

Felcher (Felcher), Friday, 15 August 2003 16:58 (twenty years ago) link

Merry Olde Ruritania

amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 15 August 2003 17:06 (twenty years ago) link

your internet isn't the only thing dodgy about that post. (nb I agree that Darnielle is great)

M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 15 August 2003 17:37 (twenty years ago) link

Oh, you only say that because your feet keep getting stymied by anything trickier than "Boom Boom Dollar." Or do you prefer the Konamix edition?

Jesse Fuchs, Friday, 15 August 2003 17:47 (twenty years ago) link

um...anyway...

M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 15 August 2003 19:04 (twenty years ago) link

Juh? Please elaborate; I'm genuinely curious. What's dodgy? The fact that I left "Best Bootlegs in the World" off my list, which was admittedly an oversight, but not an indefensible one? The fact that I think Tallahassee may be better than Love & Theft? The fact that DDR requires one of those horrid videogame systems to be listened to, which of course makes it treyf to any SERIOUS music critic, who would not be caught dead with such a narcotizing masscult device in their home? The fact that it necessitates physical exertion? The fact that I made an (obvious) joke about the perennial subjective/objective issue? What exactly do you object to here, Michelangelo? Again, this isn't an attempt to rile you up; I'm just askin'.

Jesse Fuchs, Friday, 15 August 2003 19:27 (twenty years ago) link

I said "um...anyway" because I've never heard anything off Dance Dance Revolution and therefore your "feet tricked up by" crack flew over my head.

M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 15 August 2003 19:30 (twenty years ago) link

geez, who killed Jesse's cat?

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 15 August 2003 19:31 (twenty years ago) link

also, your paranoia re: "SERIOUS music critics'" fear of narcotizing masscult devices is founded on what exactly?

M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 15 August 2003 19:33 (twenty years ago) link

blount from your posts you'd think your cat was being slowly disemboweled in your presence for the past 12 months!

amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 15 August 2003 19:34 (twenty years ago) link

(p.s. i'm just kidding.)

amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 15 August 2003 19:35 (twenty years ago) link

am - go start a thread mocking me for it and then ten minutes later go cry to the moderators to delete said thread.

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 15 August 2003 19:35 (twenty years ago) link

or: stop whining PLZ

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 15 August 2003 19:35 (twenty years ago) link

my asking for my thread about another poster to be deleted is the "i invented the internet" of ilm!

amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 15 August 2003 19:36 (twenty years ago) link

and Jesse, I was KIDDING in the first place just like you were, I mean what the fuck?

M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 15 August 2003 19:37 (twenty years ago) link

am - sorry, I'm not oops, I'm not taking the bait. go troll on someone else's dime.

nnnh oh oh nnnh nnnh oh (James Blount), Friday, 15 August 2003 19:38 (twenty years ago) link

???????????

amateurist (amateurist), Friday, 15 August 2003 19:38 (twenty years ago) link

Sigh.

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 15 August 2003 19:46 (twenty years ago) link

Unfounded paranoia, clearly. Although come to think of it, has any music critic written anything about any of the music/videogame crossovers of the last half-decade or so? Parappa, Um Lamme Jammy, DDR, Samba De Amigo, Para Para Paradise...I've never seen any critical engagement of any of these CDs, despite the fact that they're at least as interesting as mash-ups in terms of how technology is transforming musical experience, and at least as much fun. If anybody wishes to disabuse me of my raging paranoia -- which is already causing me to stock up on ammo, iodine pills and anti-mutant repellent -- with a link to a critical article I missed in my Google searches on the subject, it would be much appreciated.

But you still haven't answered my question, which had little to do with your "um...anyway" and everything to do with your calling my original Darnielle/Dylan/DDR post dodgy. Again, I'm simply curious: what's the dodgy part? If you haven't heard/experienced DDR, then it clearly can't be that, because you're way too smart (not sarcasm -- I've read and enjoyed your writing) to formulate opinions on things you've never heard. So was it my overenthusiasm for Darnielle? Dylan? If I were to take the joke out my original post and restate it straight, it would simply be: "Still underrated. Tallahassee is, with the possible exception of Love and Theft and DDR, my favorite album of this century so far." Given that this century is only a few years old, this doesn't strike me as any more shaky than any other statement of musical enthusiasm. So again I ask: what do you object to, exactly?

As for my cat, he is fine, but he thanks you for your concern.

Jesse Fuchs, Friday, 15 August 2003 19:57 (twenty years ago) link

Aargh...I'm still figuring out this site, and didn't see Matos's 'kidding' remark when I hit submit. Sorry -- now I sound even more paranoid, I'm sure. Can't sleep...rock critics'll eat me.

In any event, I think the critical blind spot towards 'rhythm games' is an interesting subject, but it's clearly tangential to the original thread, so I'll shut up about it now. But if anyone else wants to start a new thread on the subject, I'm all ears. Or eyes, fingers, whatever. As for my mini-micro-imbroglio with Michelangelo, all I can say is that his original post just goes to show why, although I hate them just as much as the next message board poster, emoticons are sort of a necessary evil. One : ), or even :P, and I wouldn't have written a word in response.

Jesse Fuchs, Friday, 15 August 2003 20:03 (twenty years ago) link

i think he meant it as a joke in reference to "in my brain, from which all objective truth originates" at least that's how i interpreted it.

Felcher (Felcher), Friday, 15 August 2003 20:10 (twenty years ago) link

Jesse, you might want to revive this: This is the Video Game Music Thread

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 15 August 2003 20:13 (twenty years ago) link

That's a really nifty thread, but again, I'm intrigued that, while everyone's willing to give mad props to the Super Mario Bros. theme and the GTA soundtrack, nobody mentioned any of the games I brought up above -- which are qualitatively different, in that they're not merely soundtracks, but music that must be interacted with to be truly experienced. Not that there's anything mere about the SMB theme song, mind you. But when the next generation of drum programmers start claiming that their formative pad-tapping experience came from a rapping moose, don't say I didn't warn you... : )

Jesse Fuchs, Friday, 15 August 2003 20:21 (twenty years ago) link

I'm not a video-game guy at all (said not derisively; I just haven't had much interest), but I lived with someone a few years ago who had Parappa the Rapper. "Kick, punch, it's all in the mind!" Word.

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 15 August 2003 20:26 (twenty years ago) link

He changed his mind on N.E.R.D., as he noted in this year's Pazz & Jop essay. I can't be the only one who read it?!

Rickey Wright (Rrrickey), Friday, 15 August 2003 20:56 (twenty years ago) link

Felcher wins!

M Matos (M Matos), Friday, 15 August 2003 21:47 (twenty years ago) link

Why do critics bother with reviews so short and undescriptive? Do they assume we just care so much about their opinion we dont need to have them, you know, do their job?

David Allen, Saturday, 16 August 2003 01:51 (twenty years ago) link

Christgau is extremely descriptive and extremely critical, what are you talking about?

M Matos (M Matos), Saturday, 16 August 2003 02:03 (twenty years ago) link

I just dont get his immense hatred for Donny Hathaway. I can stomach his disdain for the music and i can stomach the racially patronizing tone, for to each is own. But what crossed the line for me is was when he cracked a Joke about his suicide( " who lives on in duet after duet") in his greatest hits review is fucking sick. There has to be a fine line between what a critic thinks of ones work and ones opinion as a human being. Just because beyonce Knowles might be a talentless mallrat who doesnt understand the diverse forms of soul music from a bag of beans, doesn't mean that she is a bad person. She might be , she might not be. I dont know Beyonce so I cant make that judgement.

Look, I know that Hathaway is the main classic soul man that rock critics bash, and I know that african american musical artists who arent trying to bling bling out are widely considered pretentious by white music critics. I understand that any african american person tries to express himself in a way that is outside a racial box is considered a freak and ostracized. But it bothers me when it the criticism becomes personal.

robert lashley (brotherman), Saturday, 16 August 2003 20:48 (twenty years ago) link


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