privilege as a meme

like, the quickest way to shut down a discussion is exactly to start talking about racism and sexism and watch people head for the exits

of course they wouldn't be more productive but it would be a more accurate way criticising, wouldn't it? "prejudice" isn't quite as incendiary.

xpost i see that point, but do you think that's why we need the word "privilege" - cos as i see it it'd spark discussion but surely it leads to more confused discussion.

i'm genuinely curious about the case for it - cos it does seem really problematic when everyone has a different set or lack of privileges

it does seem really problematic when everyone has a different set or lack of privileges

this is why it's HELPFUL

for starters i think you're working off a concept of privilege that's really... limited? correct me if i'm wrong, but you seem to be thinking solely in terms of material privilege, money, access to resources?

i guess what i'm getting at is the confidence to use the word - when can someone feel safe doing so?

i don't mean that i intend to start employing it myself, just like - surely invoking "privilege" risks all sorts of assumptions about somebody else, you'd maybe need to know them quite well or their background?

for starters i think you're working off a concept of privilege that's really... limited? correct me if i'm wrong, but you seem to be thinking solely in terms of material privilege, money, access to resources?

not at all.

if you disagree with people you should be specific.

― Tioc Norris (LocalGarda), Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:01 AM (44 minutes ago) Bookmark

why would anyone not be able to use the word? it's a pretty simple concept.

http://smartassradio.com/wp-content/gallery/site-images/checkyourhead.jpg

why would anyone not be able to use the word? it's a pretty simple concept.

well, if you're a white straight male for instance...

dayo, race, sexuality, gender, social class, religion, upbringing, schooling, i'm sure there are plenty other reasons somebody can be privileged over another person. i'm trying not to be restrictive about my definition at all.

that's sort of my point above, you can't know many of these things about people instantly, and there are probably other privileges that are invisible at face value - it does seem hard to be totally confident then in using it to assess people, perhaps not just for white straight people?

when people seem so fixated on dismissing the usefulness of the word "privilege" i am reminded of committed anti-feminists are among the creepiest people alive imo

well, if you're a white straight male for instance...

what about this prevents you from being able to eg acknowledge your privilege, or discuss it in relation to others?

what about this prevents you from being able to eg acknowledge your privilege, or discuss it in relation to others?

i meant that i would not use the word to denounce others because i'm obv privileged.

this is sort of what i'm querying - who has the right to use the word "privileged" - it's a lot more complicated than "racist" or "sexist" in this regard. i don't know the answer there, i'm just interested to hear what people think.

Hahaha who has the right to use it? Hopefully everyone, while they give it some careful consideration?

i don't think the right to use a word comes into this, it's a way of getting people to look at the underlying prejudices they bring to a conversation - we all bring underlying prejudices - and recognizing that beliefs and ways of thinking about the world aren't natural or inevitable but a product of who we are, and that these differences make us less qualified to talk about some forms of oppression, no matter how important we think our opinions might be - e.g. i will never experience racial prejudice so my opinions on it are kind of limited

it reminds me of my old man's endless "i'm entitled to my opinion" mantra - well yeah sure dad as long as you realize that means not much

Everyone can use it. It depends on the context of the situation. LG could legitimately question the privilege of a British person who dismisses the reality of prejudice against Irish people, for example.

Invoking racism or sexism is necessary at times but privilege as a concept has a wider and, to some extent, less confrontational use. You don't have to be racist or sexist to hold problematic or controversial ideas that have been shaped by the advantage your social or personal status brings. Interrogating the source of those ideas is important.

yeah it's not about the right to use it because it's not supposed to be a pointed takedown, but is better standing as a demand for self-critique from every individual within a group.

if you think its use is a tool of denunciation you really, really, fundamentally don't understand the concept

(obviously there are people who DO use it aggressively, as there are everywhere)

some ppl even used gender/racial terms like str8 white dudes as denunciations, lex, it's a strange and ever-shifting world out there huh

yeah it's not about the right to use it because it's not supposed to be a pointed takedown, but is better standing as a demand for self-critique from every individual within a group.

I agree with this, but this is often how it's employed, that was sort of my initial point. this goes on lex's xpost too, i agree, lex, i'm not trying to antagonise here, i do think that misuse is quite common though and is damaging.

Everyone can use it. It depends on the context of the situation. LG could legitimately question the privilege of a British person who dismisses the reality of prejudice against Irish people, for example.

Of course, but these contexts aren't always clear, and it's used online quite a lot which seems even more risky.

Also it seems hard to put all prejudices together under one banner of "privilege" - surely the reasons for these prejudices or views are all potentially quite different?

yeah it's not about the right to use it because it's not supposed to be a pointed takedown, but is better standing as a demand for self-critique from every individual within a group.

This is the most succinct and best way of putting it that I've seen so far.

if this usage has academic roots i would say that's at least in part a result of more diversity within Higher Education, i.e. non white middle class dudes having to challenge long-ingrained modes of thought/speech

Also it seems hard to put all prejudices together under one banner of "privilege"

because privilege isn't so much a thing as a relation. it comes directly out of the work of people like Foucault arguing that power relationships are never monolothic but always the product of these sliding scales.

i guess that's always going to be vulnerable to simplification because real life is v. complex whereas pontificating on Facebook is pretty simple

^ (re: foucault)

isn't this kind of a problem with the word itself? i mean doesn't this mean words like "racist" or "sexist" or "prejudice" are more effective in specifically targeting somebody's views or what they say and why it's misguided or based on their own blind spots?

― Tioc Norris (LocalGarda), Wednesday, April 10, 2013 5:36 AM (1 minute ago)

i think privilege does have the kind of specificity you ascribe to words like "racist" and "sexist". it just describes a somewhat different thing. i mean, one of the most insidious forms of privilege is that which considers itself not special, but normal - the privilege to see one's own culture and views as ordinary to the point of universality, and to see any deviation from that as notable "difference". this encourages a sort of blindness among those so privileged, a blindness to the limited (and rather special) circumstances that shape their perceptions and understandings. it may be useful to call attention to this when the privileged seem to forget that they can't really speak for "people in general".

also, privilege is frequently expressed in a sense of entitlement. in conversation, the privileged often feel entitled to chip in with their two cents, even when they have much less actual experience with the issue in question than others. they are reassured by their privilege (and the license it so often grants them) that their ideas will be useful and should be heard. it may be useful to check this tendency, especially when certain voices threaten to drown out all others.

Also it seems hard to put all prejudices together under one banner of "privilege" - surely the reasons for these prejudices or views are all potentially quite different?

― Tioc Norris (LocalGarda), Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:09 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark

privilege more describes how power is always relational and context dependent based on the parties. privilege describes the differentials inherent in relationships between people

I remember in college I had to take a race and feminism class to get my degree and it was pretty eye opening. I always thought I was a good progressive liberal, but never really thought hard about what life was like for people not white or male. It wasn't really built around "white privilege" though, more like, here's how life can be different for other people in our society.

I feel like pointing fingers at people for being priveleged isn't really all that helpful, as in people generally don't like being made into some sort of "booger man" for all the ills in society when the privileges they do have is as much an uncontrollable circumstance of birth as being discriminated against. It's hard to figure out without talking to people (pretty intimately) about how their lives are different, and those types of conversations don't happen all that often. Screaming PRIVILEGED! kills an important potential dialogue imo.

Of course, but these contexts aren't always clear, and it's used online quite a lot which seems even more risky.

― Tioc Norris (LocalGarda), Wednesday, April 10, 2013 9:09 AM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark

i don't think it's as risky as you make it out to be, frankly! especially on a place like ilx where it's a core of posters who do share a lot from their personal lives and about whom we all know a great deal. but even outside of ilx, i think you can glean a lot about a person posting on the internet just by the /way/ they're framing something, the language they use, the hidden assumptions present in their text

"booger man"

Okay, I was waiting for something worth saving to come out of this thread. Thank you, Spectrum.

i remember when you could kick a ball in the street without having anyone call attention to your position of relative privilege

i don't think it's as risky as you make it out to be, frankly! especially on a place like ilx where it's a core of posters who do share a lot from their personal lives and about whom we all know a great deal. but even outside of ilx, i think you can glean a lot about a person posting on the internet just by the /way/ they're framing something, the language they use, the hidden assumptions present in their text

yeah fair enough, perhaps i'm projecting my own unease onto others.

xpost no need to be personal about it, i'm not trying to defend any positions of privilege.

i remember when you could kick a ball in the street without having anyone call attention to your position of your booger

you'd be using a shoehorn to make it the term used on ilx as i've seen it.

Hold up here now - I am prepared to believe that lag8n's being straight forward with the initial question, that there are places where privilege functions as a straightforward "I Win". Maybe I've been lucky, I've only seen that a few times, far less than I've seen people yammering about how privilege is used as a putdown. My advice is not to read these blogs.

But if there are these places, ILX is surely to god not one of them - the very last thing that happens when someone calls out privilege here is that anyone goes "ah no fair point I'll switch to listening mode"

Also it seems hard to put all prejudices together under one banner of "privilege" - surely the reasons for these prejudices or views are all potentially quite different?

Well yeah - again perhaps a sheltered life, but I've never seen anyone get called out for unmodified privilege, it's always along a specific axis.

But if there are these places, ILX is surely to god not one of them - the very last thing that happens when someone calls out privilege here is that anyone goes "ah no fair point I'll switch to listening mode"

heh that's a very fair point!

even outside of ilx, i think you can glean a lot about a person posting on the internet just by the /way/ they're framing something, the language they use, the hidden assumptions present in their text

i did make the point that things like religion/sexuality/background etc, these just aren't on view, especially IRL.

Well yeah - again perhaps a sheltered life, but I've never seen anyone get called out for unmodified privilege, it's always along a specific axis.

it's usually unmodified ime.

also as an aside, isn't it possible people behave in a way that transcends their background, positively or negatively?

You are calling for ppl to do exactly what the exercise of "checking [your] privilege" is designed to do. You just don't want to call it that, for...some reason?

Because IME I've only seen it used as an inflammatory pejorative, and not for that purpose at all.

My experience is that (done right, and someone will always be doing it wrong somewhere on the internet), discussing privilege can go softer than sexism and racism - even if you start with "that's racist" it turns into "You're racist" and then it's all about the sacred mysteries of their inner soul; "You're displaying white privilege" can be taken as a criticism of the circumstances that have shaped the target, and gives them an out for acknowledging it and deflecting away from themselves.

Not that making someone saying dumb things on the internet comfortable is necessarily society's greatest purpose, of course.

"You're displaying white privilege" is an appallingly smug and counterproductive way of making a point.

It would genuinely be less insulting to call someone a racist.

seems fine to me. more specific.

no way is that more insulting than calling someone a racist.

Yeah I was joking about that bit, but I still think "white privilege" is an unhelpful way of putting it.

Oh for real? Do you suggest that the exact same point just be made with different words?

i'm gonna attribute that to a difference across the pond xp

dayo, race, sexuality, gender, social class, religion, upbringing, schooling, i'm sure there are plenty other reasons somebody can be privileged over another person. i'm trying not to be restrictive about my definition at all.

i am decidedly non-dayo privileged :(

Because IME I've only seen it used as an inflammatory pejorative, and not for that purpose at all.

― Tioc Norris (LocalGarda), Wednesday, April 10, 2013 6:38 AM (11 seconds ago)

here on ILX, i've occasionally had my privilege called out. the context of the usage has ranged from enlightening engagement (nitsuh, surprise) to vitriolic bullying (ahem...), but i chalk that up more to vagaries of character than any basic deficiency in the world or concept. some people will abuse any tool you give them.

Oh for real? Do you suggest that the exact same point just be made with different words?

Yes, basically. If you want someone to take your point on board it's better to make it in a way that isn't immediately going to put them on the defensive.