privilege as a meme

*laps*

the problem to me is people thinking of their real personal relationships through various types of abstract structural lenses - of which "privilege" is the latest and greatest.

Right, but you do get that seeing it as 'abstract' is a form of privilege, right?

xp - yeah, the whole "lol, this is something only a few relatively privileged college students talk about" angle seems awfully myopic. all it really communicates is a limited range of experience.

I see your point if you mean that ideas or issues of privilege are a wide concern, but the word itself is really only used in the way we discuss here by a very small group of people.

It seems contradictory to the entire point of the concept to say "well x amount of underprivileged people may not use that word but we speak for them when we do."

the word itself is really only used in the way we discuss here by a very small group of people

this isn't true tho

maybe here on ilx yeah, but that's mostly bc that's the general population of ilx? and ppl here hardly even use it

the word itself is really only used in the way we discuss here by a very small group of people.

I'm tempted to say "But really that's not the case", and see how far we can go with a reality chain - but, is it the number or the composition of people using this that you think is the problem?

Just out of interest, whose experience is universal? Is that the person to whom we all ought to be deferring on message boards?

Yes, that is what anyone here is saying.

Lol i wish you'd put me on killfile, take me out of your misery

it has nothing to do with universality, at least i don't think anyone is suggesting it is

i think one of the big causes of confusion is that people tend to think it's supposed to be used sort of as a sum, like in that (fake) privilege calculator thing, or like it's a sliding scale. types of oppression are separate but they intersect -- it's more like, on issues of racism you 'defer' to someone who experiences racism, on issues of homophobia you 'defer' etc etc. on issues that involve the intersection of one or more oppression, the words of someone who experiences that intersection holds more weight than mine. i could read all the memoirs in the world and still not know what it's like to live life as a victim of oppressive institutions as much the people who do.

basically the idea seems to be "experience matters, refer to it"

Seems fair! maybe that's a better phrase than a jargon term like 'privilege' as it's used.

maybe jargon deserves its own thread but jargon words tend to evolve for useful reasons i think, e.g. they can save time rehashing concepts that people understand and agree on. like all words they can be used for stupid, but i wouldn't blame the words.

i think one of the big causes of confusion is that people tend to think it's supposed to be used sort of as a sum, like in that (fake) privilege calculator thing, or like it's a sliding scale. types of oppression are separate but they intersect -- it's more like, on issues of racism you 'defer' to someone who experiences racism, on issues of homophobia you 'defer' etc etc. on issues that involve the intersection of one or more oppression, the words of someone who experiences that intersection holds more weight than mine. i could read all the memoirs in the world and still not know what it's like to live life as a victim of oppressive institutions as much the people who do.

i agree entirely with this. but ime it's not used in the polite way you suggest.

I'm tempted to say "But really that's not the case", and see how far we can go with a reality chain - but, is it the number or the composition of people using this that you think is the problem?

the number and the composition. i've never heard the term used irl, ever. never heard it said. i live in one of the most underprivileged areas of london and i imagine if those around me are thinking negatively of me they'd probably think "posh cunt" rather than "privileged".

zach- thanks for the rundown, btw

i've never heard the term used irl, ever

Seriously?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bn0hFnOGnq4

I mean the memeification of the word is dreadful and most of the people in the western world are privileged in some way but its use is hardly confined to an elite. Tony Pulis dropped it the other day.

sorry, of course i've heard it, i just mean irl you don't hear it often and not as a pejorative in the same way.

I mean the memeification of the word is dreadful and most of the people in the western world are privileged in some way but its use is hardly confined to an elite.

in terms of class i'd say it is confined to an elite.

i've read the tony pulis piece you're referring to matt. he's using the word privilege, you'd be using a shoehorn to make it the term used on ilx as i've seen it.

In a half time team-talk Pulis bawled out his team for their heteronormative cisgendered male privilege and pointed out that not everyone in the Arsenal team could share that.

ha

basically the idea seems to be "experience matters, refer to it"

― infirm neophytic child (zachlyon), Wednesday, April 10, 2013 1:30 AM (2 hours ago)

zachylon otm. that's a big part of what i get from it, anyway. it's perhaps tempting to think that intellect, logic and common sense working in concert enable anyone to render their own verdict on any subject, so long as they're willing to put in some information-gathering time. when it comes to certain subjects, however, it may be best to render less and listen more - especially when talking to actual people about their actual experiences.

^ ...to the extent that we recognizes our own privilege and the way it shapes our perceptions. but also good advice in general.

There's a lot of point-missing going on here.

I, of course, blame the patriarchy.

Anyone who tries to tell me to check anything is going to have another kind of check coming to them, if you take my meaning, which if you're priviledged, you probably will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJ4UFZmeenE

There's a lot of point-missing going on here.

if you disagree with people you should be specific.

I'm confused by who some of you are hanging out with who deploy "privilege" so relentlessly that you can't get a word in edgewise until you've built up this resentment of it for keeping you down and un-listened-to.

Oh LG, please. This is turning into every thread about gender ever, in which dudes demand to have it proven to their satisfaction that the thing you're talking about even exists while they deny it and try to argue you away.

i don't think that's fair really. saying that the word "privilege" is used mainly by a select few is not akin to saying that privilege itself does not exist.

Yes but what you end up with is, it's okay when it's really necessary but *I* get to decide when that is. If it doesn't bore me, if it's not too obtrusive, if it's used by the right people, if it's against an injustice that seems egregious *to me*, if it's not "taken too far" (whatever that means). The fact that a person with lots of kinds of advantages DOESN'T GET TO DECIDE THOSE THINGS is the point? Not that someone who knows a fancy theory term speaks for everyone, which I don't even know where you got.

could you elaborate more about this privilege cabal, LG

xpost when you quote "taken too far" are you just telling someone they said that or did someone actually say it?

could you elaborate more about this privilege cabal, LG

i don't think it's a cabal, i just think it's used mainly by relatively well-educated people to attack each other.

OESN'T GET TO DECIDE THOSE THINGS

there is no deciding going on whatsoever. i'm just curious about the use of this specific word, not questioning the need for people's views to be questioned or the prevalence of ignorance from people in positions of privilege.

Yes but what you end up with is, it's okay when it's really necessary but *I* get to decide when that is. If it doesn't bore me, if it's not too obtrusive, if it's used by the right people, if it's against an injustice that seems egregious *to me*, if it's not "taken too far" (whatever that means).

happy enough with this. what criteria do you use yourself? we've all got our own backgrounds/experience that feed into what we think, do and say.

i don't think it's a cabal, i just think it's used mainly by relatively well-educated people to attack each other.

― Tioc Norris (LocalGarda), Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:18 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark

are you saying that "well-educated" people dont get to invoke privilege? why not?

i'm actually questioning the validity of people invoking it when to me i don't think its use in this way exists for the most underprivileged in society...

at the very least surely that means it's not a particularly effective word? i'm not against the concept itself at all, feel like that's been attributed to me but it's not what i'm saying.

i just sort of feel "privilege" is too vague to actually have real power - i completely agree with orbit's earlier post:

I mean I understand why it seems like a race to be the bottommost person in the pile but a) I don't think that actually happens in a well-meaning discussion where ppl want to come closer together or closer to a goal together, and b) I think that conception shows that the person characterizing it doesn't understand what intersectionality is, for one thing, or what the whole awareness-increasing work is for.

isn't this kind of a problem with the word itself? i mean doesn't this mean words like "racist" or "sexist" or "prejudice" are more effective in specifically targeting somebody's views or what they say and why it's misguided or based on their own blind spots?

dayo on fire itt, a few others otm too, other than that reading this was the usual dispiriting experience of str8 white dudes acting wilfully disingenuously and trying to pick apart what is a very basic and useful concept w/pedantry, attacks on the more egregiously obnoxious people who use it etc in order to avoid actually saying that they find acknowledging it uncomfortable because it would shake how they act in the world or because they're stuck on privilege as a thing that leads to someone "losing" or "winning"

""racist" or "sexist" or "prejudice""

hahahah you think that discussions would be more productive if people dropped these words instead?

like, the quickest way to shut down a discussion is exactly to start talking about racism and sexism and watch people head for the exits

of course they wouldn't be more productive but it would be a more accurate way criticising, wouldn't it? "prejudice" isn't quite as incendiary.

xpost i see that point, but do you think that's why we need the word "privilege" - cos as i see it it'd spark discussion but surely it leads to more confused discussion.

i'm genuinely curious about the case for it - cos it does seem really problematic when everyone has a different set or lack of privileges

it does seem really problematic when everyone has a different set or lack of privileges

this is why it's HELPFUL

for starters i think you're working off a concept of privilege that's really... limited? correct me if i'm wrong, but you seem to be thinking solely in terms of material privilege, money, access to resources?

i guess what i'm getting at is the confidence to use the word - when can someone feel safe doing so?

i don't mean that i intend to start employing it myself, just like - surely invoking "privilege" risks all sorts of assumptions about somebody else, you'd maybe need to know them quite well or their background?

for starters i think you're working off a concept of privilege that's really... limited? correct me if i'm wrong, but you seem to be thinking solely in terms of material privilege, money, access to resources?

not at all.

if you disagree with people you should be specific.

― Tioc Norris (LocalGarda), Wednesday, April 10, 2013 8:01 AM (44 minutes ago) Bookmark

why would anyone not be able to use the word? it's a pretty simple concept.

http://smartassradio.com/wp-content/gallery/site-images/checkyourhead.jpg

why would anyone not be able to use the word? it's a pretty simple concept.

well, if you're a white straight male for instance...

dayo, race, sexuality, gender, social class, religion, upbringing, schooling, i'm sure there are plenty other reasons somebody can be privileged over another person. i'm trying not to be restrictive about my definition at all.

that's sort of my point above, you can't know many of these things about people instantly, and there are probably other privileges that are invisible at face value - it does seem hard to be totally confident then in using it to assess people, perhaps not just for white straight people?

when people seem so fixated on dismissing the usefulness of the word "privilege" i am reminded of committed anti-feminists are among the creepiest people alive imo

well, if you're a white straight male for instance...

what about this prevents you from being able to eg acknowledge your privilege, or discuss it in relation to others?

what about this prevents you from being able to eg acknowledge your privilege, or discuss it in relation to others?

i meant that i would not use the word to denounce others because i'm obv privileged.