2014 what are you reading thread

They did a near-complete purge of the shared Vertigo universe with the New 52 shitstorm (wherein Swamp Thing, Animal Man, Shade, John Constantine, etc. were reincorporated into the DCU proper) and the cancellation of Hellblazer (the last of the hangers-on), but new Vertigo-specific projects have popped up here and there (e.g. Gaiman's current Sandman miniseries and the Dead Boy Detectives ongoing).

They got a lot of mileage with that expansion. Books of Magic (not technically a Sandman spin-off, I know) and Lucifer were great, and I really dug the homestretch of The Dreaming once they figured out what they wanted that series to be.

Also, since Vertigo had a different reader demographic than the main DC books (older folks, more female readers), I'm sure they didn't want to do too many crossovers with the main universe, so the readers wouldn't be reminded too much that these books had their origin in superhero comics (whose main target group was still seen to be preteen boys). So the crossovers were mostly limited to one-panel gags (like Superman, Batman, and Martian Manhunter appearing in Morpheus's wake), and to occasional appearances by "Vertigo friendly" DC universe characters (like Zatanna, Etrigan, or The Phantom Stranger).

(xxpost)

Books of Magic I felt was the strongest of the Sandman spinoffs (I think you can call it that, since Dream and Destiny appeared in the original mini); it felt like John Ney Rieber had a unique vision for his version of urban fantasy, one that wasn't derivative the Moore/Gaiman template. But sadly it felt like his long-term plans for the series eventually petered out, since his run ended with several plot arcs left unresolved. Apparently Peter Ross, the artist of the series, then started writing the book too, but AFAIK his run has never been collected, so I've never read it.

As much affection as I have for John Ney Reiber's run, I think I almost prefer Peter Gross's solo run. It's a real shame that DC never collected it. It's totally worth seeking out, though. The Dylan Horrocks follow-up mini and ongoing are also decent (and largely uncollected) if not quite as high in my esteem.

Ward- I had seen that book loads of times but never knew it was any different from a lot of other general surveys. Thanks, I'll definitely be getting this.

I thought 1001 Comics To Read Before You Die was an impressive effort but it was marred by a few things: I think it should have been a bit more critical and not included so many comics for their iconic status or historical value (Death Of Gwen Stacy? Really?).
The other thing is that there wasn't nearly enough art examples, which I don't think are a necessity but lots of comics in short synopsis sound too samey (particularly humour and satire) and make no impression without any real criticism to make it interesting. I don't know if they had to go through rights clearances for every image (which would be a nightmare).
It did get me off the fence about buying a few things but best of all it introduced me to Frantisek Skala.

I've been thinking about getting some more books about manga but knowing that the majority are drawn in the same flat style is offputting despite the wide array of subjects. I read Jason Thompson's House Of 1000 Manga now and then but if the art examples aren't interesting it's hard to imagine the stories coming to life.

the majority of the first wave Vertigo books technically took place in the main DC universe

it is nuts that i didn't know this

Yeah, many of the core characters around whom Vertigo was initially established were "dark" reimaginings of older DC characters (WWII-era Sandman and Jack Kirby's '70s Sandman, DC's variety of horror comics hosts which comprised a lot of Sandman's cast, Steve Ditko's '70s Shade, the costumed crimefighter version of Black Orchid, etc). I think the first original main characters were John Constantine and Tim Hunter (who both originated in pre-Vertigo DC books).

There were lots of references to the various Sandmen of DC's past in Gaiman's run! It gives me a headache even thinking about it. Very significant to the eventual fate of Dream on it by the end of the series.

that WAS the vertigo brand for the first several years. this is not your older brother's [semi-forgotten DCU character]! holy crap someone's shooting heroin on page 3!

Yeah, I thought it was cool that, by the end of Sandman...

(SPOILERS!)

...Gaiman kinda acknowledged the nature of Sandman as a legacy character, when the son of the Hector Hall Sandman became the new Dream (though obviously Gaiman's Sandman had little to do with the previous characters of that name). I think Hippolyta and Hector Hall have also appeared in some post-Sandman main universe DC comics, since they were DC superheroes before Gaiman snatched them for his book.

But yeah, I too wasn't particularly well versed in DC comics when I started reading Sandman, so I was bit surprised to learn years later that "Dr. Destiny" was actually an old JLA villain who looked like Skeletor. And he was also related to the Garret Sandford Sandman (the guy who preceded Hector Hall), as Sandford and the Justice League fought against him in a JLA annual. A lot of the first Sandman arc is actually Gaiman actually trying to fit his series into the previous DC chronology (pretty much every major character who appeared in that arc was an established DC character), but most of that was lost on me when I first read it.

(xpost)

xpost The Vertigo Voices one-shots stretched that conceit to its near-breaking point. The totally grungified son of Prez in search of the dark, twisted heart of America! AKA the first Brubaker I ever read, and not exactly his high water mark.

i was roommates with Ed when he started pitching that one-shot; it was intended to stretch the Vertigo brand conceit to its breaking point and the ridiculousness of its elevator pitch was not lost on him.

I'm still picking up new references in Sandman (like the barely-mentioned Fashion Thing character, who, as the Mad Mod Witch, had her own stint as a horror host).

Re: crossovers in Vertigo. I thought it was an uncomfortable mixture to have superheroes in some of those titles. Moore's Swamp Thing is the only Vertigo run I ever read the whole of and I think the guest stars rarely strengthened it, Etrigan's riddles were fun, some of the Spectre stuff was cool but most of it didn't help the story of the plant guy.
Crossovers only really work for me when the shared universe element was a major feature to start with, otherwise I feel it's a rude interruption. Lots of writers used to complain that they wanted to tell a story of a character and then got big crossovers forced on them.

I think if Moore could do it all over again he'd not work for DC but have a comic called Plant God. But again, it's difficult to imagine these things happening without DC having a stable of artists and characters to reinvent. I just wish the whole British invasion could have just stayed in Britain with creator owned books that Americans could read. DC was attracted by what was happening in Britain, so if everyone stayed I think the attention would have kept gathering. The rates would be lower but the fruits would be better.

I'm curious about Caitlin R Kiernan's Vertigo work.

Old Lunch and anyone else- just asking what runs you liked the best and what it was they did well.

(there's a vertigo thread. might be a better place for this)

/ILX/ThreadSelectedControllerServlet?boardid=57&threadid=210

Lots of writers used to complain that they wanted to tell a story of a character and then got big crossovers forced on them.

*raises hand*

the second issue of my run writing Robin (#101) was a mandated, inescapable crossover event with Young Justice (of all things), and I was informed of this fact AFTER my script for the first issue of my run was already locked in. Meaning any tension generated by the end of my first issue had to be punted offstage for this interdimensional something or other garbage event where I had to hit notes D, E and F. Then find a way to get back to stage position where I'd left off. Had irl panic attacks over this.

Did not realize you'd written any mainstream stuff! Yes, I can imagine being thrust into a crossover with no lead time would be incredibly frustrating. Although...is that when Peter David was writing Young Justice? Because I thought I remembered him being pretty vocal about his lack of appreciation for having crossovers thrust upon him.

(I moved the Vertigo-specific conversation over to the Vertigo thread, btw.)

I don't know why I said "used to complain" because these huge multi-title crossovers are worse than ever now. Maybe writers of superheroes today fully expect to deal with this. There was a period in the late 90s/early 00s when Marvel said they were trying to avoid this but that didn't last long.

I feel like Marvel is doing a much more elegant job of it nowadays, at least inasmuch as the elements of a given crossover don't usually feel quite as forced or perfunctory as they used to. I think there's a lot more pre-planning and I'm sure the writers involved have plenty of heads-up. Although there's certainly an argument to be made that a lot of individual flavor is lost when everything is just a discrete component of a larger, neverending tapestry.

xpost the writer of YJ at the time was Todd somebody. My editor owed his editor a favor or some shit like that. The plotting/concept of the crossover was godawful. I mean, it would have been fine if I'd known in advance about it.

I managed to stay on the title for 21 issues, by the end of which DiDio had taken a dislike to my work. Until the last few issues I loved doing it, tbrr. Pete Woods was the artist on almost every ish which was a lucky stroke on my part. Dylan Horrocks, who was writing Birds of Prey at the same time as my Robin run, put it perfectly after we both got canned when he described it as "the best job I never felt I had".

Oh, yeah, that was that weird period when Horrocks did Batgirl and Gilbert Hernandez also did a stretch on Birds of Prey, yeah? I would've loved to see DC go more in that direction, but I figured even at the time that editorial interference would wind up deep sixing anything really interesting.

fuck i'm an idiot. yes, dylan on Batgirl. Beto very very briefly on BoP.

i wanted to write the book as 'teen investigator in funny outfit confronts weird paranormal shit' which in hindsight was a stupid angle to try on that particular property.

these things all happened in the bat group when bob schreck was the group editor; I think that goes a long way to explain that little burst.

xpost You'd like to think there's room for that, but, yeah, I can imagine trying to do anything really different with the deeply entrenched Big Two properties is like hitting your head against a wall.

it wasn't anything all that different, I mean it would have totally flown on a different title, maybe even a different title in the bat group. Just wasn't a good tack to take for that particular book.

~lyfe~

~regretz~

yeah but that doesn't even seem to make business sense! look at the archie editorial policy and how well they're doing just trying off the wall shit to see how it impacts. You can keep canon for movies and "mainstream universe" titles but i imagine a creator driven beto wonder woman book would probably at least double in circulation and get a shit ton of press so why aren't DC aggressively fighting that direction rather than trying to reboot the reboot of their reboot? It's just dumb.

like, fuck, give this guy above me Swamp Thing for fucks sake! See what happens!

R.A.G, again, I also contributed to 1001 Comics To Read Before You Die so caveat emptor, but that book's coverage of 'foreign' comics is the best of any English language survey, imho. Funnily enough, some of the American comics choices in the UK/American edition were dropped from some of the European editions (so, surprise, the French version of 1001 Comics... has a lot more French comics to read before you die.)

I distinctly remember finding out that Beto was writing Birds of Prey when I saw his name on one of the covers, several issues into his run, and thinking, "surely, it isn't the Gilbert Hernandez I'm thinking of or I would've heard something about this."

Ward- That's odd. Another thing I though was a mistake was the UK edition having Dredd on the cover, I think it should have tried to attract a wider variety of people with a less genre-specific cover.

I heard Beto got shit from a lot of people for doing a DC title.

yeah but that doesn't even seem to make business sense! look at the archie editorial policy and how well they're doing just trying off the wall shit to see how it impacts. You can keep canon for movies and "mainstream universe" titles but i imagine a creator driven beto wonder woman book would probably at least double in circulation and get a shit ton of press so why aren't DC aggressively fighting that direction rather than trying to reboot the reboot of their reboot? It's just dumb.

― Look at this joke I've recognised, do you recognise it as well? (forksclovetofu), Tuesday, July 15, 2014 2:24 PM (15 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It COULD have made good business sense if they'd played the angle up from their PR dept (whoa shit indie cartoonists writing bat books hey look entertainment weekly) but I don't think I appreciated at the time that titles didn't really get promoted unless they were already a hit; just like with the indie auteur things I did it would have been up to me to go line up interviews and stir up enthusiasm. Like, they did make a press release when me, Dylan, Beto, Anderson Gabrych were put on the titles but that was it, they then just waited for us to dry up and expire.

And if such a comic was a roaring success, they'd base a movie on it and all sorts of merchandise but not pay the creators properly (if at all).

Yeah, but I think most creators acknowledge that going into the deal these days.

yeah I wasn't worried abt that. Page rate was ok and they paid fast once you turned the work in. And there would be royalties if things went to trade (LOL they are never gonna collect these robins in a million years).

What about royalties from digital versions?

I didn't realise Gilbert Hernandez actually was doing a little Wonder Woman thing.

he's not that i'm aware of? i was just using that as an example. i wish he would.

http://comicsalliance.com/gilbert-hernandez-sensation-comics-featuring-wonder-woman-dc-digital-first/

Finger on the pulse, there, forks.

huh. well it makes sense.

kinda but still weird

Another DC imprint called Helix focused on science fiction, including a Lucius Shepard series called Vermillion (wonder if there is a prose version?), Some titles got carried over to Vertigo.

What about royalties from digital versions?

If Jon's issues were available digitally, DC would start paying out at 60,000 sales.

lol Transmetropolitan started on helix

yeah, i have those somewhere. with the exception of that and matt howarth's book i think i hated every helix comic i read

which reminds me, 2020 Visions was an awesome comic that was never collected by Vertigo, but has a b&w collection. I would almost recommend finding the original though.