Rolling Music Theory Thread

RIO

(Duran Duran)

Ever used this tool? Pretty cool:

https://www.hooktheory.com/trends#

How do you search for minor keys with that tool?

I learned Weezer's "Say It Ain't So" for a student. It's a bit of an interesting case. The melody definitely points to Eb as the tonic imo, with a strong melodic cadence at the end of the chorus. Harmonically, though, you only really get Eb on the second half of the second bar of a two-bar progression: in the intro, it's Cm7-G(add m13 add m10)-Ab-Eb. In the verse, the first two chords become more triadic; in the chorus, they're all power chords. So it's essentially vi-III (chromatic mediant: V/vi?) - IV-I if you want to use RNs, which on its own feels like maybe it should be i-V-VI-III in C minor.

I... cannot understand why anybody would think "Say It Ain't So" is in a minor key

Let's get whatever about the bridge (which is in Bb) and how the transition back into the guitar solo (which is in Eb-major) is an actual lift from Beethoven

The melody starts on Bb and moves to C and then down to B and back up to C and then jumps down to a F - Eb cadence on the I chord (which is Eb-major)-- as it, we're in and around the proposed "tonic" of c-minor already but... well, the cadence of those verse melodies is always moving away from c-minor to Eb-major (because the song is in Eb-major)

I wonder if the choruses imply any sort of fealty to the key of c-minor beyond the first chord that is strummed? ah no, they don't, at all, they are obviously moving toward an Eb-major chord, but that's probably wise because this song, which is in Eb-major, is in Eb-major

Sorry if I'm being a bit of a c-minor-word about this I just... feel exhausted by the fact that we need to examine every single chord progression from the perspective of queer theory

No, no, the song is definitely in Eb major. I just think it's interesting that you have the major III chord where it is and that you only get the I chord on the second half of the second bar of the two-bar pattern. If I just saw the chord progression by itself, without the melody line, I might assume that it is in C minor; that's all I meant.

I just... feel exhausted by the fact that we need to examine every single chord progression from the perspective of queer theory

This is A+ though.

I just think it's interesting that you have the major III chord where it is and that you only get the I chord on the second half of the second bar of the two-bar pattern.

It is interesting, but maybe we should just not be so quick to think of that moment as being an abnormal resolution point? Because it does feel very much like a resolution point and a natural one.

There have to be a decent number of songs that do that. Every time they go through the progression, you can hear them staying on the tonic Eb chord when they get to the next measure.

Well, the verses in "Trenchtown Rock" worked in that way too, which is why I thought of it. The choruses in that song put the I chord at an obviously accented place in the pattern, though.

Out of curiosity, I just plugged vi-III-IV-I in the form of C: Am-E-F-C into your hooktheory link (which seems to transpose songs automatically since I know several of the results [including "Say It Ain't So"] are not actually in C). Afaict, pretty much all of the results have the I chord at the start of a measure if not at the start of the progression. Some are examples like the one from Muse's "Starlight", where only one section of the song uses this progression.

There's a minor five chord in Don't Go Back to Rockville!

― timellison, Monday, January 8, 2018 12:35 AM (nine months ago)

Strangely, there's one in So. Central Rain, too.

Heading to San Antonio for SMT tomorrow: https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.amsmusicology.org/resource/resmgr/files/san_antonio/program-sanantonio.pdf

Ha, I only noticed now that this is included on the that programme: Friday Evening Concert - 7:30 Kansas plays Point of Know Return (Tobin Center)

San Antonio is beautiful - have fun. Is your paper on the whole album or just on the long title track?

The title track

M3lv1n's the Deadhead and wrote his dissertation on them. He's more of a historian/musicologist (as opposed to theorist), though, and asked me to help with the analysis of this tune, which led to this presentation.

I decided to try and figure out how to "Renaissance Fair" by the Byrds, and man, that song is cool. I think it's really a case where the guitar is playing chords but they don't have the normal function, they're not providing the harmony for anything. They're a contrapuntal element.

how to PLAY

A lot of interesting presentations about popular music at SMT that I think would interest you guys, including a whole panel on ambiguous tonality in pop, ha. I'll get back with more details soon.

No, as the supertonic is lowered in the Neapolitan (Bb instead of B in this example), it needs to resolve downwards, usually to the raised leading note (G#), not upwards to the diatonoc supertonic (B).

― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, September 11, 2018 9:20 AM (two months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

*diatonic

― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, September 11, 2018 9:20 AM (two months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Some theorists would say the Bb is actually resolving to A (the tonic) via G#, which is probably more accurate. The key principle is that altered notes resolve in the direction of their alteration.

― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, September 11, 2018 9:29 AM (two months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Going over some jazz theory and technique today, it occurred to me that it might help JR&tB to compare this movement to the concept of chromatic enclosure of the tonic in jazz playing.

Thanks for that.

Came to post this link about CST:
https://ethaniverson.com/received-wisdom-jeff-goldblum-chord-scales-the-ireal-book-and-kamasi-washington/?fbclid=IwAR0PrHcFLE00BzLATuRF11cJeIx4rnV7DZ10O2HuCLmAFIuIdePLmMn4Kok

Oh, interesting. I have a lot of inchoate thoughts on this, studying and teaching more jazz these days.

(which I will expand on soon)

Cool. I mostly agree with what he says there. Will wait for you to expand before I expand or expound thereupon.

Might not be able to wait too long though ;)

On second and third reading, honestly, it seems more reasonable than I thought on first hasty reading in the grocery store, esp keeping in mind that it was aimed at students. I do find chordscales are good for helping my (below uni level) guitar students break out of rock-based soloing habits. It makes sense that they are a simplified abstraction, in the way that the rule-based method we use to teach 'Bach chorales' is probably different from what Bach was thinking when he was harmonizing hymns (in a language he spoke!) for his church: a useful tool/hack to draw on but not any kind of final word.

Right. Chords scales are a useful first step, as you point out, but often they get taken to a ridiculous extreme, as if there was a one-to-one correspondence between the chord and the chord-scale assigned to it and everybody almost always only ever played that official scale when and only when they saw that chord symbol on the chart, without taking the overall harmonic movement into effect or using chromaticism or even just using other equally valid or perhaps more appropriate scales.

Also you- and fgti, and anybody else- might want to come over to this thread: KNOWER: funky, quirky electro duo with jazz chops Louis Cole and Genevieve Artadi

I spent like five years of high school/college jazz education frustratedly trying to identify/articulate what that ethan iverson piece says, because I knew from day one that chord scale playing just didn't sound anything like good records.

The Bible of CST is the Mark Levine jazz Theory book, which Iverson mentions in the article. In addition to the overall problems with the methodology, there are some clearly outrageous statements in there, like something to the effect that nobody plays the Aeolian Scale ( because it’s corny? I forget) or The Harmonic Minor Scale (!), because it doesn’t fit nicely over any one chord.

Think I posted this critical review of the book -and the theory- at least once before, probably on this very thread but here it is again: http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.00.6.1/mto.00.6.1.rawlins.html

Ted was surprisingly into CST, although from a more sophisticated perspective than Aebersold-type stuff I think. I never really got that deep into it because I couldn't fucking stand it. It was like trying to teach myself to trash everything that made music sound good to me.

Maybe I will try to ask one of his other students about it, well the one who is a nice guy and is still alive.

Think the best, most concise write up of Jazz Theory I ever read was the Lightning Tour at the beginning of David Berkman’s Creative Practice book.

It seems to me- based on a bit of anecdotal evidence- that it is somewhat easier, more cut-and-dried for a teacher just to say “Play this scale!” and perhaps “and play it with this exact fingering!” rather to let you come up with your own ideas, especially in a one-on-one situation. If you are playing in an ensemble hopefully you can play some of what you want as long as you pay some lip service to the pedagogical scale in question.

Yeah, also given the fact that Ted was ultimately my teacher for only two semesters that were in themselves very broken up by hospital stays, other students are better suited to speak to how he taught it than I am.

A v close friend and constant collaborator Thom Gill plays with Knower, but I haven't ever listened

Everybody should listen to Thom Gill though, really, everything is amazing, this is the song that I'll have playing at my wedding though

https://isthisthomas.bandcamp.com/track/triumph

(the song is a kidding-not-actually-kidding love song to Bieber btw)

"the posturing of one world / becomes the intent of another" is a very beautiful lyric imo sorry for some non-theory related posts I just really like Thom ok I'll go listen to Knower now

Enjoyed that song, thanks

It seems to me- based on a bit of anecdotal evidence- that it is somewhat easier, more cut-and-dried for a teacher just to say “Play this scale!” and perhaps “and play it with this exact fingering!” rather to let you come up with your own ideas, especially in a one-on-one situation. If you are playing in an ensemble hopefully you can play some of what you want as long as you pay some lip service to the pedagogical scale in question.

― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, January 6, 2019 10:50 PM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I've never really remotely tried to flesh it out, but I've had this grain of an idea in my mind for a while of a different way to teach jazz theory as an "in motion" concept rather than a static concept, with much more emphasis on how to connect chords rather than what to "play over" specific chords, and much more emphasis on the interplay between melody, harmony and rhythm (including an understanding of how landing on or passing over a certain note has a different effect at different points in the bar). Maybe this has already been done.

Okay, I guess the thing about the Aeolian is that he came up with a weird chord to go with it.

Are you saying that professional jazz educators are telling people to think of playing over e.g. mm. 5-8 of "Autumn Leaves" strictly in terms of Locrian - Mixolydian b9b13 - Aeolian or Dorian instead of e.g. also thinking about tendency tones (e.g. leading note-tonic and/or submediant-mediant resolution at the cadence)?

I don’t have first hand experience of that but I believe quite a few do, yes.

Most people would say to play Locrian natural 2 (natural 9, or sometimes confusingly called #2 or #9) for the first one though, sixth mode of the Jazz/Melodic Minor.

Actually, maybe I did have experience of this long ago.

What I have been told recently is to play the V7 bebop scale (adding passing tone of a major 7th) over the whole thing, at least the first two bars.

And resolve to a chord tone of the i chord, of course.

What I don’t remember being told to do but what I do over the i chord is to play what some call the Composite Minor, which I believe you might be familiar with it.