who was the first hardcore band?

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Was Black Flag actually playing hardcore before Bad Brains?
And why arent the Sex Pistols considered hardcore???

Tinky-Winky, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:37 (eleven years ago) Permalink

the sex pistols aren't considered hardcore because they're midtempo rock and roll with faux-provocative politix.

flag or the germs, maybe? i'm sure someone who's a better punk rock authority than me knows the real answer.

ian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:41 (eleven years ago) Permalink

re sex pistols: also, british

pretzel walrus, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:41 (eleven years ago) Permalink

the first discharge record is my favorite british hardcore record.

ian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:42 (eleven years ago) Permalink

some say "out of vogue" is the first hardcore song. first hardcore band = germs (says me).

artdamages, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:44 (eleven years ago) Permalink

and no i dont care if that makes no sense chronologically.

artdamages, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:44 (eleven years ago) Permalink

In before lock! Search function?

Depends how you define hardcore. I don't really think Nervous Breakdown EP is hardcore, it's not fast enough. Proto-hardcore maybe, same with the Germs, Rhino 39, some of Pink Flag?

The (controversial) answer is of course the Middle Class. This is disputed because they seemed to create the first hardcore record almost in a vacuum without many people hearing it til much later, so people go for Bad Brains as first hardcore band for their sheer impact on the punk scene at the time.

xpost to artdamages

Colonel Poo, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:47 (eleven years ago) Permalink

The 2nd Discharge EP is my favourite. Dunno if it's my overall favourite British HC record, I'd have to think about that...

Colonel Poo, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:49 (eleven years ago) Permalink

ooh, see, i haven't heard the middle class record. is it in print on vinyl?

ian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:49 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Out of Vogue by The Middle Class, as mentioned is supposed to be the first hardcore song, though some considered them Germs rip-offs and give the credit to the Germs. Out of Vogue came out in 78. So did Lexicon Devil.

But the right answer is "The Man on the Dune" by The Outsiders, which was what, 68 or something.

dan selzer, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:52 (eleven years ago) Permalink

No, the CD reissue is also OOP and expensive on Ebay but there is a bootleg version that's not that hard to find.

2 of the songs from the EP (including Out Of Vogue) were actually issued in the UK by Fast Product in 1979, so they weren't completely unknown even then.

xpost again!

Colonel Poo, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:53 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Known even in scotland...how did Bob Last have his ear to the ground in the west coast to release that and the Dead Kennedys?

dan selzer, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 19:55 (eleven years ago) Permalink

The Middle Class were on one of the Earcom samplers.

leavethecapital, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:11 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Yeah, that's what I was talking about. Earcom #3 double 7".

Colonel Poo, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:14 (eleven years ago) Permalink

The Germs had the thuggish straight jock Huntington Beach hardcore fan base and the arty faggy Hollywood punk fan base. They straddle the divide.

Drew Daniel, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:17 (eleven years ago) Permalink

I have yet to hear The Middle Class and I'm flabbergasted to hear they were on Fast.

For me Bad Brains were definitive formal innovators, but I was the wrong side of the pond. So much I've heard since has imitated their moves. I'd love to know if they were aware of Discharge.

Soukesian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:23 (eleven years ago) Permalink

that first middle class 7" is cool. later they got kind of post-punky, still cool. I know I've written here before about why they should be considered hardcore. mostly because of formal concerns. maybe I'll leonardo it.

germs = too sloppy
bad brains = didn't get started until '79
black flag = gets my vote

Edward III, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:35 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Andrea True Connection, rofl.

jim, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 20:40 (eleven years ago) Permalink

I've never heard the later stuff, just Out of Vogue and two songs on Tooth and Nail. From that interview feels like they wouldn't mind the kind of cred/positioning the Urinals get these days as an art-punk band.

dan selzer, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:08 (eleven years ago) Permalink

It's pretty funny that a band calling themselves The Urinals get all the cred.

Soukesian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:10 (eleven years ago) Permalink

man the urinals are so good though!

ian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:21 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Hey, I'm not dissing 'em, but . . post-punk shit getting out of hand.

Soukesian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:25 (eleven years ago) Permalink

dan the later stuff is very 100 flowers!

artdamages, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:39 (eleven years ago) Permalink

dl the middle class comp everybody. it is an interesting listen.

artdamages, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:40 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Re: the Urinals, I just mean cred so far as the 12 of us who give a shit care! I've always meant to check out the rest of the Middle Class stuff, I'll keep a look-out.

dan selzer, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:48 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Actually, forget about who was exactly first - who were the first dozen?

Soukesian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:51 (eleven years ago) Permalink

http://www.mostmerciful.com/last%2520supper-in%2520color.jpg

ian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 21:53 (eleven years ago) Permalink

post punk shit is no longer out of hand. we have all moved on to the mid 80s. get with the program.

artdamages, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:07 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i am rocking game theory and vulgar boatman records

artdamages, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:08 (eleven years ago) Permalink

xpost: bad brains = didn't get started until '79

Soukesian, Tuesday, 24 April 2007 22:18 (eleven years ago) Permalink

bad brains and black flag weren't hardcore bands cuz they were too old. hardcore is punk's little brother.

artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 00:55 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i mean this is a stupid thread. the first question is: WHAT IS HARDCORE?

Define your terms.

artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 00:56 (eleven years ago) Permalink

alternative definiton: band must have a logo

artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 00:57 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i'd say Minor Threat's the most definitive

latebloomer, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:14 (eleven years ago) Permalink

HC band, that is

latebloomer, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:14 (eleven years ago) Permalink

definitve /= definition

artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:15 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i'll take the logo theory

latebloomer, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:18 (eleven years ago) Permalink

so by that token, Black Flag and Dead Kennedy's are hardcore or at least proto-hardcore

latebloomer, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:19 (eleven years ago) Permalink

this is kind of like deciding if archaeropteryx counts athe first bird innit

latebloomer, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:20 (eleven years ago) Permalink

*counts as

latebloomer, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:20 (eleven years ago) Permalink

http://homepages.nyu.edu/~iav202/powers/toywittgenstein.jpg

artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:21 (eleven years ago) Permalink

you know they now say dinosaurs such as Velociraptor and Deinonychus and even t-rex had feathers? wild, huh?

i bet Jello Biafra has feathers

latebloomer, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:21 (eleven years ago) Permalink

was Jello Biafra the first hardcore mayoral candidate?

artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:24 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i say no.

artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:24 (eleven years ago) Permalink

i mean this is a stupid thread. the first question is: WHAT IS HARDCORE?

well to do spoiled kids from the suburbs who have everything they could want (except for daddy's love) trying hard to act tough and to find something to be pissed off about.

Say, there's a photo in the book American Hardcore of a poster I've seen a lot, but cant find it on the internet to save my life. Its a pic of Ron and Nancy Reagan as skin heads--and I think a nuclear bomb is going off in the background...anyone here got that picture???

Tinky-Winky, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:48 (eleven years ago) Permalink

actually that makes me think hardcore might not have existed until reagan was elected.

artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:51 (eleven years ago) Permalink

http://www.mkdata.dk/wg/donkey.jpg

Noodle Vague, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 01:55 (eleven years ago) Permalink

if reagan lost many young losers would have been more new wave, but as homoerotic

artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 02:05 (eleven years ago) Permalink

(just as)

artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 02:05 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Sonically, it's the Who. Just listen to the "Things Go Better With Coke" jingle on the expanded The Who Sell Out CD.

Sara Sara Sara, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 02:22 (eleven years ago) Permalink

http://blogs.chron.com/mamadrama/archives/pepe-le-pew.gif

Mike Dixn, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 03:49 (eleven years ago) Permalink

one of my college roomates had a punk band in 1979 called HARD CORPS.

see also NYC band The Stimulators "Short Fast Rules" they jump-started the NY scene and their 12 year old drummer went on to the Cro-Mags.

m coleman, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 10:12 (eleven years ago) Permalink

leonardo plz

artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:35 (eleven years ago) Permalink

wait didnt you say in the bangs thread you were working at rollingstone? you are the enemy, man! you are a hardcore agent provocateur.

artdamages, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:36 (eleven years ago) Permalink

I would have to say Middle Class but even now the dudes from the band think it's crazy that people call them 'hardcore'

DJ Mencap, Wednesday, 25 April 2007 13:40 (eleven years ago) Permalink

I'm listening to Budgie's self-titled album from 1971, and "Rape Of The Locks" has a lot of typical hardcore manoeuvres...

todd, Thursday, 26 April 2007 05:40 (eleven years ago) Permalink

do I not get ANY love for the Outsiders as hardcore? Go listen to the Man On the Dune...the speed, the breakdown...it's uncanny!

dan selzer, Thursday, 26 April 2007 06:00 (eleven years ago) Permalink

leodanrdo plz

artdamages, Thursday, 26 April 2007 13:41 (eleven years ago) Permalink

http://www.sendspace.com/file/rg0yhk

dan selzer, Thursday, 26 April 2007 15:05 (eleven years ago) Permalink

WE DON NEED NO TV
WE DON NEED NO PICTURESHO
WE DON NEED NO ANYTHIN
WE DON WANNA NO!

Mark G, Thursday, 26 April 2007 15:08 (eleven years ago) Permalink

The "I Gotta Right" single nails some hardcore touchstones.

QuantumNoise, Thursday, 26 April 2007 15:09 (eleven years ago) Permalink

I'm listening to Budgie's self-titled album from 1971, and "Rape Of The Locks" has a lot of typical hardcore manoeuvres...

and

do I not get ANY love for the Outsiders as hardcore? Go listen to the Man On the Dune...the speed, the breakdown...it's uncanny!


But isnt hardcore more than just a style of music? Or the way it sounds?

Tinky-Winky, Thursday, 26 April 2007 16:55 (eleven years ago) Permalink

it's CB's matinees with Judge and Gorilla Biscuits!

seriously, like any genre I'm sure it means all kind of special things to different people, I'm not saying the Outsiders invented hardcore...and I'm gonna guess that neither the Middle Class nor the Germs nor Black Flag nor Bad Brains sat around and studied the Outsiders (though you never know...) I'm JUST SAYIN that that old song from 1968 sounds uncannily like some hardcore sounded in the early 80s.

dan selzer, Thursday, 26 April 2007 17:14 (eleven years ago) Permalink

Perhaps perversely, I'd really like to hear some knowledgable guitar-players pick apart the musical and strong-structural elements of hardcore and where they came from. Metal dudes do this sort of thing so much better.

Discussion of what hardcore means and meant, on the other hand, leads directly into the endless ILM 'IS PUNK DEAD?' tag-team smackdown.

Soukesian, Thursday, 26 April 2007 17:53 (eleven years ago) Permalink

The most obvious characteristic of hardcore is the agressive tempo of the guitar strumming. The drums were fast as firecrackers as well.

BTW, punk isnt dead, but it is totally irrelevent in today's corporate consumer culture.

Tinky-Winky, Saturday, 28 April 2007 00:24 (eleven years ago) Permalink

but we all agree it was the Outsiders now that I've shared it, right?

dan selzer, Saturday, 28 April 2007 02:21 (eleven years ago) Permalink

http://www.hardcorehalloffame.com/main.html

m coleman, Saturday, 28 April 2007 12:32 (eleven years ago) Permalink

BTW, punk isnt dead, but it is totally irrelevent in today's corporate consumer culture.

huh? whenever I hear the local top 40 radio station, they're usually playing hip-hop and pop-punk

12XU must be a key track in hardcore history (covered by bad Brains, Minor threat etc)

todd, Saturday, 28 April 2007 14:46 (eleven years ago) Permalink

wow! something to watch on Queens public access!

dan selzer, Saturday, 28 April 2007 15:40 (eleven years ago) Permalink

eleven years pass...

12XU must be a key track in hardcore history (covered by bad Brains, Minor threat etc)

i was searching for a hardcore thread to revive, related to this.

does anyone know about the origins of "ONE TWO FUCK YOU!" as a way to start a song? was it an homage to Wire's 1 2 X U (1977)? or was it just a way to kick off a song that was inevitable at some point?

Karl Malone, Thursday, 10 January 2019 05:09 (one week ago) Permalink

do I not get ANY love for the Outsiders as hardcore? Go listen to the Man On the Dune...the speed, the breakdown...it's uncanny!
― dan selzer, Thursday, 26 April 2007 06:00 (eleven years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

he's not wrong!

Terry Major-Ball Will Tell You (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 10 January 2019 08:52 (one week ago) Permalink

wrt Wire I had it in my head that the 'X' of the title was a stand-in for 'fuck' but not sure I can back this up

Terry Major-Ball Will Tell You (DJ Mencap), Thursday, 10 January 2019 08:54 (one week ago) Permalink

BTW, punk isnt dead, but it is totally irrelevent in today's corporate consumer culture. 

huh? whenever I hear the local top 40 radio station, they're usually playing hip-hop and pop-punk
2019, ""punk is dead" is dead" is dead

mfktz (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Thursday, 10 January 2019 09:09 (one week ago) Permalink

Orange County's Middle Class, I believe

Alex in NYC, Thursday, 10 January 2019 22:17 (one week ago) Permalink


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