What Is Rockism ?

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What is rockism, what's so bad about it, and why is the term only ever used by English people ?

I like Tom and Robin's writing a lot, but there's often an undercurrent of "take that, you rockists", a kind of lashing out at a perceived classic-rock hegemony (I'm guessing). But unless I've been missing something and there's a huge groundswell of enthusiasm for Lynyrd Skynyrd and Bad Company among people under 30, wouldn't indie purism/insularity/superiority-complex be the bigger cancer among the kind of music fans likely to read FT ?

Patrick Hould, Thursday, 14 December 2000 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

It's a set of biases (critical, which means that they can be held and practiced by anyone who asserts their tastes) which are in favor of various things that are priveliged in discourse abou rock music. Albums over songs. "Feeling" over, uh, other stuff. Individual performance and "real" performance over the "fake" (think synths and drum machines). A focus on lyrics. Narrative. "Development". Um... that's a start maybe.

Josh, Thursday, 14 December 2000 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

It's liking drab music, to put it more concisely ;) Or: it's an apparent presumption that rock is the centre of music and that the ways in which rock gets talked about are the best ways of talking about it and music in general (which is what Josh says). Pitchfork is pretty rockist, so it takes into account indie purism too. But rockist writing is certainly not always bad, and we all have our rockist sides. It's a silly word really.

I dont know about Robin, but I picked up the word from early 80s NME discourse, or rather from reading *about* early 80s NME discourse - it was used a lot by people writing about post-punk and the New Pop.

Tom, Thursday, 14 December 2000 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

I think that was a very popist thing to say of you, Tom. Down with isms. Or up with all of them.

Josh, Thursday, 14 December 2000 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

the word "rockism" came from a saying of Pete Wylie of Wah! Heat, who announced the "race against rockism" [deriv.obvious, I assume] - and the word was then grabbed by bored crits wanting to summarise everything wrong with rock routine. Wylie later insisted he'd been totally misunderstood: not surprisingly, as Wah! Heat were one of the first groups to be denounced as "rockist".

Other despicably rockist acts included using the words "album", "track" and "group" - better were "LP", "cut", and, oh, this last one I forget.

mark sinker, Thursday, 14 December 2000 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Rockism/ Rockist - was a term used in the late 80s in Britain - it indicated people who don't listen to experimental music or diverse music, but only like straight ahead rock/metal music hence the term rockist

someone was rockist if they only listened to hard rock music: AC/DC, Black Crowes, Judas Priest/ Gun/ Tesla/ Guns N Roses/Little Angels/ King Swamp/The Almighty/ Def Leppard etc

and their favoutite music night - was "rock nite" - with long hair/leather jacket/ Guns N Roses patches/ jack daniels/ headbanging/ skinny black jeans - ie all the rock cliches - I am not going there it is to rockist

I used to refer in a derogatory manner to someone in University in the late 80s for being to rockist, i.e they use to read only Raw magazine and their music tastes were too rockist.

While I listened to a wider variety of music Talk Talk/Spacemen 3/ Cocteau Twins/ Yello/Colourbox/ The Fall/ Happy Mondays/ My Bloody Valentine/ arkane/ Front 242/ Husker Du/ Mary Margaret O'Hara/ Kate Bush/Detroit techno/ Wire/ Lowlife/That Petrol Emotion/ Throwing Muses/ Sonic Youth/Phillip Boa & the Voodoo Club/ The Young Gods/ The Chameleons/ Blue Nile/ Voivod/ Sisters of Mercy/ Skinny Puppy/New Order/Killing Joke etc

DJ Martian, Thursday, 14 December 2000 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

I think I took the phrase "rockism" from its reuse by the mid-90s MM (in a similar context to the early 80s NME: the dadrock vs. modernist pop debate, etc.)

Lutra Lutra, Friday, 15 December 2000 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Alright then. What is dad-rock and why is it inherently bad ? Is the Clash dad-rock ? How about King Crimson ? Ozzy Osbourne ? Beck ? Billy Bragg ? Hootie & The Blowfish ? Jerry Lee Lewis ? Howlin Wolf ? The Velvet Underground ? The Byrds ?

If I were to take the term literally and think "music that males with children listen to", I would think dad-rock would be Celine Dion, Bryan Adams, Pink Floyd, Sting and Chris DeBurgh (at least around here). But I don't get the feeling that that's what you're referring to.

Patrick, Friday, 15 December 2000 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

dad rock

is Reef, Paul Weller, Cast, Oasis, Shed 7, Kula Shaker, Ocean Colour Scene - all retrogressive music - that took their influences from the sixities and early 70s - hence the old reference - of dad - i.e dadrock.

Dadrock - focuses on dull conformity of their retro influences, it refuses experimentation and new ideas.

Dadrock, was what brit pop morphed into from 1996 onwards.

Ocean Colour Scene - have often been labelled dadrock. For their ghastly plodding music. A truly disgusting horrible vile dadrock outfit, and the english equivalent of the bland Hootie & the Blowfish, Matchbox 20. Music so horrible- just hearing their music can induce vomitry.

Dadrock values are little englander, warm beer, laddish behaviour, loaded magazine, music conformity, waving the union jack while abroad looking for fights, conservatism, thinking Chris Evans is with it etc

in 2000 dadrock is on the slide - with only Toploader emerging, and they were utter shite.

Artists as diverse as Killing Joke, Six by Seven, Mogwai, Rico and Asian Dub Foundation - have been very critical of dadrock and the narrow cultural & musical agenda they promote.

DJ Martian - djmartian.blogspot.com the dadrock/britpop hater since 1994

DJ Martian, Friday, 15 December 2000 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Does it have to have a British context, though ? If I remember correctly, Tom has referred to more than once to Steve Earle as the Epitomy Of All That Sucks About Dad-Rock.

Also, when the rockism debate started in the early 80s, who was getting praised by the anti-rockist side ? I'm hoping Grandmaster Flash and Afrika Bambaataa, but guessing Spandau Ballet and the Human League (who were all right one song at a time on the radio, I guess).

Patrick, Friday, 15 December 2000 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Dadrock is an even worse term than 'rockist', to be honest, and it holds some implicit and slightly dodgy assumptions about fatherhood and age and so on. But anyway, in its generally understood sense ('boring music, or music which it requires no connection to the pulse of music to 'get'') all the bands previously mentioned were Dadrock. Especially Beck.

And yes, as I understand it everyone you mentioned would have been anti-rockist. It was a term that let in chancers like Spandau Ballet, probably, though for three albums the Human League were at worst interesting and at best brilliant.

Tom, Friday, 15 December 2000 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

if the byrds and velvets are dadrock what does that make the smiths and mary chain?

sundar subramanian, Saturday, 16 December 2000 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Beck is dadrock? Hmmm, I'd been reading that word as more stodgy than that, even. Id est Beck is too hip (imagine) for dadrock.

Josh, Saturday, 16 December 2000 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

ALL boring music is dad-rock ? Even something like Korn ??

Patrick, Sunday, 17 December 2000 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Beck is merely the hip (with impressionable ironists) face of dadrock.

Aquemini, Sunday, 17 December 2000 01:00 (nineteen years ago) link

two months pass...
Q: in the early 80s, who was getting praised by the anti-rockist side? A: Dr Buzzard's Original Savannah Band, Dollar

mark sinker, Tuesday, 20 February 2001 01:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Alternatively: A: Fire Engines, Raincoats, James White and the Blacks, ABC, Channel 1

You can sneer at it, but it always seemed to me that the term rockist was pretty useful to describe a kind of person (mostly a kind of journalist) who saw their fundamental roots in rock music - white, male, serious, guitar-based - and other musics as an entertaining diversion. I remember thinking Jamming! - for example - was depressingly rockist because I wanted to see them write about reggae and funk alongside the Jasmine Minks. But Jamming! was much happier writing about Billy Bragg and the Alarm. And the Redskins, for that s- o-u-l flavour. Oh yes. I mean, I enjoyed Jamming! but considered it distinctly rockist.

Now I understand that I should expect niche-marketed narrowmindedness. I have learned that it is unreasonable to expect publications to contain a genuine babble of competing voices and tastes.

'Rockist!' was an insult used, it seems to me, to imply that the recipient had seen punk and post-punk as a shot in the arm for rock music, rather than pick up on the various threads of much more interesting music which seemed available at the time. To fall back into a Great Rock Heritage in the shape of, say, the Bunnymen, or U2, or even Magazine (who I love) still seems lazy and tasteless to me. Even though I no longer see either of those terms as valid. Hm.

There's still a great article on the hip hop wars to be written, by the way.

Tim, Tuesday, 20 February 2001 01:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Tim, how is that lazy and tasteless (lazy I can kind of understand, but the tasteless part baffles me) ? I mean, it's customary to dismiss punk and new wave as old-fart music by now, but back in the early 80's in North America it was pretty bold to even pay attention to the stuff. It was damn near non-existent commercially, you really had to dig to find it. The mainstream was dominated by people like REO Speedwagon, Journey and Alabama, which were somewhat, uh, unsatisfying to anyone who gives a shit about music.

Patrick, Tuesday, 20 February 2001 01:00 (eighteen years ago) link

three weeks pass...
Sometimes I feel that the one thing that irritates me more than 'guitar-music-snobbery' is 'anti-guitar-music-snobbery'.

the pinefox, Wednesday, 14 March 2001 01:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Really Foxy? *The* one thing? Goodness.

Tim, Thursday, 15 March 2001 01:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Heavens.

the pinefox, Thursday, 15 March 2001 01:00 (eighteen years ago) link

one month passes...
"Anyone who likes [Television] is irredeemably rockist" (Guy, elsewhere).

Is rockism the liking of rock or the preference for it? Should we distinguish between anti-rockism and pop separatism? ;)

Tom, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

It's, uh, interesting when "rockism" is used in the same tone that one would use, say, "pedophile", which is pretty much what Guy did there. Hmmm, I don't know. If rockism = blanket dismissal of all non- rock music that doesn't fit *stereotypical* (I can't emphasize that word enough) rock values, then saying you have to be an irredemable rockist to enjoy Television is just a ludicrous display of attitude.

A lot of the anti-rockism mentality seems to imply that the only way someone can possibly dislike, say, Destiny's Child, is by filtering their music through an outdated set of rock-dude values - I say it's entirely possible to listen to both DC and Television with the same open ears, come away prefering Television by miles, without being a ideologically-rigid pop-hating wet-blanket.

Patrick, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

This might be a bit intra-Derrida twisty even by my standards, but isn't the ESSENCE of anti-rockism the kneejerk redemption of the currently irredeemable? Whatsoever that be...

I'd kinda like to quote the original Pete Wylie interview in which the term arose, but you know what — I lent my copy of NME that week to Matt Black of Coldcut (then Matt Cohn of the Jazz Insects), because it contained a review of the first A Certain Ratio LP — and he THREW IT AWAY instead of returning it!! When I complained — noting that Ian Penman had written said review — Matt replied: "Mark, you ARE Ian Penman."

So can I be Everett True yet?

mark s, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

My "irredeemably rockist’ comment was aimed at Tom because rockist is one of his favourite terms, and there seemed some irony that he was extolling Television who are obviously part of the modern rock canon – as of course are the Clash, Pistols et al.

The origins of the term don’t matter too much. For me rockist means an approach – current irredeemable rockers include U2, Primal Scream, Manic Street Preachers, Pearl Jam. If you can air guitar to it, it’s rock. Whether you care for redemption is a separate issue.

Guy, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

"If you can air guitar to it, it’s rock."

Best definition of rock. Ever. :)

Omar, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Maybe so, but it clearly includes great scads of disco: you can air guitar to Chic.

mark s, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Which makes sense: see Chic - Television debates (threads). Ah, this all starts to make sense now :)

Omar, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

You could air guitar to The Carpenters... but no-one does. I suspect Chic fans practised nifty steps (do you remember when dancing involved the feet!), rather than air guitar - whilst Talking Heads, who employed the same sound, always attracted air guitaring fans.

Guy, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Air guitar is dancing for people who are frightened of the middle of their bodies.

mark s, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Absolutely!

Guy, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Ergo: rockists are afraid of the middle of their bodies.

Who says ILM debates never get anywhere?

Nick, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

do you remember when dancing involved the feet!
I think everyone decided to keep their feet firmly planted on the ground after seeing Brother Beyond dance. Yikes!

Stevie Nixed, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

three months pass...
rockists are afraid of the middle of their bodies

Surely this would mean that Smiths and Belle & Sebastian fans = rockists, and Rolling Stones fans = non-rockists ?

Patrick, Tuesday, 21 August 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

If only all Rolling Stones fans were as unafraid of the middle of their bodies as Mick was, this would be true.

Tim, Tuesday, 21 August 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

(if unafraid of middle of mick's body, then surely unafraid of middle of ANY body)

Stones = MOST INAUTHENTIC ROCK GROUP OF ALL TIME BAR NONE, and that's what's GRATE abt em of course. Rockists SAY they like em, but when you go deeper, it's all talk.

(Patrick, is that you moved and back and settled in? Or are you another anti-anti- rockist Patrick joined forces with the first?)

mark s, Tuesday, 21 August 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Mark S - correct-o! If I had a quid for every 'rockist' who tried to tell me that Van Halen was better than the Stones (faster guitar player, of course), I could afford every Stones bootleg ever.

dave q, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

Mark - same anti-anti-rockist Patrick as before, new e-mail address, new country.

Patrick, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (eighteen years ago) link

one year passes...
"rockist" was a term coined by Melody Maker journalists in the early 80s to denote a sort of attitude that is obsessed with authenticity, worships the canon (ie only likes things if they have/will "stand the test of time", favours albums over singles, mind over body, moralism over materialism.

Jan Geerinck, Wednesday, 6 November 2002 22:24 (seventeen years ago) link

one month passes...
Is it time to revive this discussion? Some possibly contentious points and questions then: Is 'rockist' as a term only relevant in debates over the value of particular forms of popular music of the late 20th (now early 21st century)? Because it seems most useful to me in describing how most critics' only reference points exist in that span. Rock criticism is cut off from much understanding of all the kinds of music that have come before and often those that coexist. The very idea of 'rock' is itself a phenomenon of rockism.

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 23 December 2002 06:32 (seventeen years ago) link

Is it time to revive this discussion? Some possibly contentious points and questions then: Is 'rockist' as a term only relevant in debates over the value of particular forms of popular music of the late 20th (now early 21st century)? Because it seems most useful to me in describing how most critics' only reference points exist in that span. Rock criticism is cut off from much understanding of all the kinds of music that have come before and often those that coexist. The very idea of 'rock' is itself a phenomenon of rockism.

Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 23 December 2002 06:33 (seventeen years ago) link

four months pass...
Is it time to revive this discussion?
I say YES

Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:16 (sixteen years ago) link

Rockist!

Aaron W (Aaron W), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:24 (sixteen years ago) link

Rockism is great!

Johnney B (Johnney B), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:25 (sixteen years ago) link

Rockism = everyone should like what I like because what I like is OBJECTIVELY great.

Did I get that right?

Frühlingsmute (Wintermute), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:28 (sixteen years ago) link

Okay, let me explain. "Rock" (big word, only 4 letters) is a cool thing. I'm sure most of us agree with that. Now, rock usually works with or within the things that anti-rockists take umbrage with :

Albums over songs. "Feeling" over, uh, other stuff. Individual performance and "real" performance over the "fake" (think synths and drum machines). A focus on lyrics. Narrative. "Development".

says Josh.

AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT!

As a side point, I don't think that the world is rockist at all. It only turns into a rockist review when a reviewer who's only used to reviewing rock tries to review somethign else - not equipped with the tools maybe? If you're used to talking about how an album flows from song to song (which is often, for me, an element in the enjoyment of music) how do you cope if there's only 1 track? Or 12 indistinguisble tracks? How do you give a drum machine a mark out of ten for the drumming?

P.S. I'd like to append all of this by saying that I really don't knwo what I'm talking about. Thank you.

Johnney B (Johnney B), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:35 (sixteen years ago) link

I've always found that American "indie" people have a far deeper appreciation of rock music than their British counterparts. You know that Thurston Moore not only grew up listening to Kiss and Foghat but probably still digs them whereas someone like Stephen Pastel would piss his pants if you turned his amp up above 3 let alone 11.

Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 12 May 2003 12:11 (sixteen years ago) link

He loved/loves maybe Sparks, too

Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Monday, 12 May 2003 12:13 (sixteen years ago) link

...and you count Sparks as a rock band?!?!?!

Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 12 May 2003 12:14 (sixteen years ago) link

one year passes...
Rockism is;

Privileging of received wisdom over new discourse
Privileging of credibility / authenticity
Privileging of numbers and categorisation / lists

Mythology making the arbitrary appear necessary / essential

Making the cultural appear natural by making it appear to be invisible

The pursuit of objectivity

Jimmybommy JimmyK'KANG (Nick Southall), Thursday, 16 September 2004 08:16 (fifteen years ago) link

for me personally, it's that I can just enjoy a piece of music without fear of being judged for it because of associations/takes/cultural detritus/etc.

aloha darkness my old friend (katherine), Thursday, 20 December 2018 17:00 (one year ago) link

xp Maybe, but music listening has to be one of the most benign outlets for that brain mechanism.

jmm, Thursday, 20 December 2018 17:02 (one year ago) link

I think katherine’s pt is good but leads to others ... there’s lots of v good reasons to want to experience music independent of (or tenuously connected to) the culture industry ... personally I find I learn a lot about my own ears & tastes & self by experiencing music at various levels of intersection w (press/critics/industry/murder dog magazine) etc ... But I’ve come to respect ppl who go through the effort of pushing against a kind of passive consumption, that the work required tends to train someone’s ears to be open to other ways of experiencing music

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 17:17 (one year ago) link

This relates to austin’s Point about poptimism of you’re having somewhat quaint ideas of what makes music “pop”

And why contra the earlier convo I think of contemporary poptimists of being more Carly Rae / Robyn boosters than Beyoncé or Kanye fans per se

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 17:20 (one year ago) link

(Obviously I think of poptimism first and foremost more as a way of thinking than specific artist advocacy but that way of thinking led to certain aesthetic avenues getting critical traction imo)

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 17:21 (one year ago) link

Have people come up with a term for the belief that all things hip hop (pop rap, trap etc) are the rightful cultural compass and center of all musical dynamism ? Because I hear that a lot, while Poptimism seems to have reduced to a narrow obsession over a few exaggerated / delirious / ecstatic pop qualities (that can only be found on records that explicitly go for them and which seem forced to me).

― Nabozo, Sunday, December 9, 2018 1:24 PM (one week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

And fwiw to this point I think this idea would be seen as pretty passé ... tho I could see it being confused w the argument that black music in total is the rightful cultural compass and center of all musical dynamism, which there’s a strong case for

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 17:23 (one year ago) link

Xxxp “poptimism of yore” not “poptimism of you’re”... autocrrct

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 17:24 (one year ago) link

tho I could see it being confused w the argument that black music in total is the rightful cultural compass and center of all musical dynamism, which there’s a strong case for

what does this mean?

Mordy, Thursday, 20 December 2018 17:29 (one year ago) link

I’m saying the argument he applied to “hip hop” has more currency in the discourse when applied to black music as a whole ... the idea that black popular music is the “culture compass and center of all musical dynamism” (his words) is a a popular one w lots of evidence to back it up

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 17:36 (one year ago) link

I mean it’s kind of the underlying logic of “appropriation discourse” no?

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 17:36 (one year ago) link

i guess i'm not sure what 'musical dynamism' is (i assume he doesn't mean 'music dynamics'?) and we're just talking about particular pop/rock Western vernaculars? bc i assume we're not positing that hip hop or black music is the center of whatever 'musical dynamism' is in say eastern european or middle eastern maqam or western art music?

Mordy, Thursday, 20 December 2018 17:38 (one year ago) link

maybe i'm just going back to pom's point that there's a lot of music out there and sometimes these discussions seem to take as granted that the musical forms that exist are a) top 40 pop radio formats and b) rock radio formats.

Mordy, Thursday, 20 December 2018 17:39 (one year ago) link

yeah, BOTH kinds of music!

Οὖτις, Thursday, 20 December 2018 17:44 (one year ago) link

I mean when I hear what contemporary music people actually listen to in Eastern Europe or the Middle East or especially European “art music” (certainly the avant-garde) popular forms & especially ones influenced by ie house/techno/hip hop etc have a pretty heavy influence on the form and marketing of that music

Obviously there are traditional musical forms that don’t really ever “update” but

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 18:01 (one year ago) link

ime "traditional" musical forms do update and evolve but you have to be intimate with their discourses to hear the changes

Mordy, Thursday, 20 December 2018 18:02 (one year ago) link

If you listen to contemporary Eastern European or middle eastern or especially European avant- garden music are you claiming you’re not liable to hear the influence, forms, styles built on house or techno or hip hop or R&b? Incorporated with local and traditional sounds?

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 18:03 (one year ago) link

Sorry for the similar post I thought my last one had deleted so tried retyping

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 18:04 (one year ago) link

ime "traditional" musical forms do update and evolve but you have to be intimate with their discourses to hear the changes

― Mordy, Thursday, December 20, 2018 12:02 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Sure I can agree with this... I do think regardless if someone is looking for music that is “not traditional” it tends to be incorporating popular black forms of music

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 18:05 (one year ago) link

well all music permeates border and boundaries by nature so i expect to hear different genres bleed into each other all the time but is it the primary driver of 'musical dynamism' in those genres (still not clear what that means)? i'm not confident about that.

Mordy, Thursday, 20 December 2018 18:06 (one year ago) link

I mean certainly in the United States the notion that rhythm (& therefore innovations stemming from black music) is a dominant driver of the sound of music’s evolution is even a widely accepted idea... (which classical composer was it that said something along those lines?)

Speaking on a global level it gets infinitely more complex of course but if I pick up a random Bhangra mix cd on Devon there’s a good chance it will have rapping on it

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 18:17 (one year ago) link

There's plenty of European avant-garde music that doesn't sound especially beholden to house, techno, hip-hop, or R&B to me? You hear those influences in Kurtag or Lachenmann?

(And, obv, even those musics have plenty of European influences; European musics have Indian and Middle Eastern influences, etc.)

Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Thursday, 20 December 2018 18:22 (one year ago) link

the euro avant garde not just in music but in many forms of art has an ongoing relationship w africa via primitivism & going back to african art influence on picasso etc. ...

i didnt say "all european art music sounds like house techno hip hop or R&B" lol

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 18:31 (one year ago) link

at any rate making this into a global question is mordy's way of muddying the waters imo ... im not claiming to have knowledge on the level of relation between every global genre of music + african roots, and didn't claim that I thought this argument was the capital T Truth, I just said its a dominant argument & there's lots of evidence (undeniably) of the centrality of black music to the evolving sound of contemporary music ... i think you'd have to be a fool though to imply traditional irish music or eastern european music has more of a global footprint than hip hop, techno, R&B, or house

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 18:34 (one year ago) link

Well, I was responding to

If you listen to contemporary Eastern European or middle eastern or especially European avant- garden music are you claiming you’re not liable to hear the influence, forms, styles built on house or techno or hip hop or R&b?

but the broader claim you're making now definitely makes more sense (although in the same sense that all musics reflect cross-cultural interaction and influence).

xp

Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Thursday, 20 December 2018 18:34 (one year ago) link

i feel like when ppl start to say "all musics reflect cross cultural interaction and influence" and bring up timbaland sampling an egyptian record or something it implies an equality of influence that isn't really reflected by the record ... like if you listen to popular songs in eastern europe & they basically sound like house music filtered through a local sensibility its hard to say 'oh just the usual cross cultural exchange' like this is a house record

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 18:36 (one year ago) link

Good lord it's just fucking MUSIC
So glad we left the High Fidelity mindset in the 00s!

flappy bird, Thursday, 20 December 2018 18:44 (one year ago) link

Couldn't someone else argue by the same token that anything built on functional chord progressions and the major/minor key system has European roots? I'm really uncomfortable with trying to identify a single cultural source as being globally central.

Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Thursday, 20 December 2018 18:51 (one year ago) link

This is a fool’s errand

Οὖτις, Thursday, 20 December 2018 18:52 (one year ago) link

Couldn't someone else argue by the same token that anything built on functional chord progressions and the major/minor key system has European roots?

surely yes, and that's a correct argument to make

( ͡☉ ͜ʖ ͡☉) (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 20 December 2018 18:54 (one year ago) link

Couldn't someone else argue by the same token that anything built on functional chord progressions and the major/minor key system has European roots? I'm really uncomfortable with trying to identify a single cultural source as being globally central.

― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Thursday, December 20, 2018 12:51 PM (twenty-one minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

if you're going back that far you can argue 'all people come from africa.' i'm talking about art forms that were created in the last couple decades....

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:14 (one year ago) link

Wait what artforms were created in the last couple decades

Οὖτις, Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:21 (one year ago) link

Glitchy GIF Tumblr art

underqualified backing vocalist (morrisp), Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:22 (one year ago) link

Those “ironic” tin signs with a 1950s style drawing of a smiling woman, and a slogan like, “No one cares about your diet... just eat your salad and be sad.”

(I genuinely love those, btw)

underqualified backing vocalist (morrisp), Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:24 (one year ago) link

Wait what artforms were created in the last couple decades

― Οὖτις, Thursday, December 20, 2018 1:21 PM (two minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

house, hip hop, techno?

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:24 (one year ago) link

last 'few' decades sorry

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:24 (one year ago) link

“Move over, coffee... this is a job for alcohol!”

underqualified backing vocalist (morrisp), Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:25 (one year ago) link

Are there food critics out there writing about Burger King and sour patch kids etc these days?

Evan, Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:29 (one year ago) link

“Few” = 50 years?

Yeah ok lol

Οὖτις, Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:33 (one year ago) link

I dont think any of those genres are particularly “dynamic” at this point but thats just me

Οὖτις, Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:34 (one year ago) link

They are def rooted in black community tho, sure

Οὖτις, Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:34 (one year ago) link

I dont think any of those genres are particularly “dynamic” at this point but thats just me

You don't think 19-year-old idiots mumbling about depression on Soundcloud are the future of music? Racist.

grawlix (unperson), Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:36 (one year ago) link

The Definitely Not Racist has logged on

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:41 (one year ago) link

Anyway here’s a timely investigation

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/20/arts/music/new-pop-music.html

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:42 (one year ago) link

Few” = 50 years?

Yeah ok lol

― Οὖτις, Thursday, December 20, 2018 1:33 PM (nine minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

We’re comparing it to the scale of Europe inventing the widely adopted notion of tonality so yes this is still relatively recent

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:43 (one year ago) link

Also techno was not invented 50 years ago, lol

ILX’s bad boy (D-40), Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:43 (one year ago) link

yeah talking out of the side of my neck a bit on that one (what's the first "techno" record? Kraftwerk? idk lol) whereas house and hip hop both have conventionally agreed-upon start dates which are closer to the 40 year mark, my bad

Οὖτις, Thursday, 20 December 2018 19:46 (one year ago) link

Anyway here’s a timely investigation

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/12/20/arts/music/new-pop-music.html🕸


Funny you should post this article, deej. Caramanica is making a similar point to the one I was making on the Afropop thread (about the new type of crossover success of reggaeton and K-pop), and that you never really addressed.

breastcrawl, Saturday, 22 December 2018 22:47 (one year ago) link

one year passes...

https://variety.com/2020/music/reviews/selena-gomez-rare-album-review-1203463571/

“Rare” is one of the best pop albums to be released in recent memory, and — as it does for artists ranging from Robyn and Charli XCX to Max Martin’s more adventurous productions — it feels like that term does a discredit to this sophisticated, precisely written and expertly produced music.


Ah HA! Busted!!

Don’t yell ‘Judas!’ in a crowded theater (morrisp), Saturday, 11 January 2020 04:52 (two weeks ago) link

lol

dyl, Saturday, 11 January 2020 06:20 (two weeks ago) link

Perhaps they should call it something like Sophistipop

Muswell Hillbilly Elegy (President Keyes), Saturday, 11 January 2020 14:51 (two weeks ago) link


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