Is SPIN really circling the drain?

i gotta get on the twitter.

yup, aero, all us!

I got clowned so hard for liking bananarama in high school. well who's laughing now you dicks. me. I am laughing. at something totally unrelated, yes, but my point stands

my favorite joke on there is the one about teyana taylor

haha same here

there, i feel better already.

https://twitter.com/skotrok

My main problems with the (first) Ebony thing are:

1) The writer takes for granted that BS loves ignorant gangster rap because he is white, writes for Spin and criticizes Lupe, when in fact BS is one of very few white rap critics writing for mainly rockist publications (Spin, P4k, VV, Stereogum, etc.) who nearly always tries to combine an aesthetic critique with an ethical one. Not saying that he always gets it right, but, hey, it's what he does. He also hates Rick Ross with a passion - but is called out for finding him exciting while not liking Lupe. The comment that "The imagery in rap music is even more damning than early 20th century minstrelsy because there are so many folks inside and outside of the Black community who will fight tooth and nail to suggest that the buffoonery is not only authentic Blackness, but the most authentic form of Blackness" gracelessly misses BS's perspective. BS has never to my knowledge suggested that buffoonery is "the most authentic form of blackness".

2) The writer takes for granted that because BS is white and writes for a mainly rockist publication, he can't possibly bring something of value into the discussion - a stance that reduces what every white rap critic - and yeah, that goes for quite a few of the people in this thread, myself included - writes to misguided aesthetics. The white writer is merely an observer, incapable of feeling, and unable to connect emotionally to the music he hears. Distance, then, brings about estrangement rather than perspective. This is particularly bad since, as Noz points out, mainstream rap media don't really publish substantial criticism of new rap music. There is also the general point that criticism as such in some ways hinges on a certain distance - distance enables criticism. The critic is always in some way an outsider. This is why BS's "lady"/"female" misstep is not merely a howler - it points to a different cultural perspective from which Lupe's simple hierarchy isn't necessarily the right answer to the question he poses but rather the source from which that question arises (deconstruction, folks!). Hogan and Soderberg both dismiss Lupe's song's ability to provide a good enough answer to the question it raises and which is obviously its raison d'être - that's the context wherein they find it relatively worthless. As do I.

3) The point that "Contradictions and complications are not new territory for rap music, be from a “sanctimonious” emcee or a blissfully ignorant one, so the anger at “B*tch Bad” really seems unwarranted" is really half baked. Anger at Bitch Bad may well be warranted even though contradictions and complications are not new territory for rap music.

4) The writer takes for granted that "popping her butt" to Nicki Minaj will get the "12-year-old girl" in trouble, and that gangsta rap can *only* be bad because of its negative impact on young black kids. She also claims that BS "says little about the scenes featuring small children watching rap videos and emulating them (I don’t think this dude is particularly concerned about what little Black girls are witnessing that may be to their detriment, sorry)" - but really, there's no evidence in the SPIN piece to back that statement up. BS says "little" about it, but he does mention that the girls in the video are unsupervised and notes that this is the main difference from the previous scene wherein the mother is the hero. The problem to me is that Lemieux takes for granted that if you somewhat agree that unsupervised kids watching Nicki pop her butt is bad, you must also commend Lupe for making a song wherein this scene takes place.

So no. Outside of the impressive energy she put into scolding her opponent, her piece did little for me.

Eh. I'll stop there.

Sorry. I wrote while y'all lolled.

i prefer the red card
also kudos for "I'm rushin to start a pussy riot HANH"

The writer takes for granted that because BS is white and writes for a mainly rockist publication, he can't possibly bring something of value into the discussion - a stance that reduces what every white rap critic - and yeah, that goes for quite a few of the people in this thread, myself included - writes to misguided aesthetics. The white writer is merely an observer, incapable of feeling, and unable to connect emotionally to the music he hears. Distance, then, brings about estrangement rather than perspective. This is particularly bad since, as Noz points out, mainstream rap media don't really publish substantial criticism of new rap music.

Serious question: Does the hip-hop community even value criticism/critique? The level of criticism offered in hip-hop magazines seems to me to be far below what's offered in rock mags, which ultimately makes the "white" media more important to hip-hop discourse, in the long run, than "black" media. For example, way more people remember what Spin wrote about Public Enemy's Nation of Millions than whatever Word Up might have had to say about it, yes? But there seems to be a much stronger "fuck a critic" attitude in hip-hop than in any genre of rock. So maybe all rappers want from writers is sycophancy. Which makes complaints about articles or reviews kinda hollow, doesn't it? Even if the article in question may actually be problematic?

jesus christ you guys

why does black people never want to criticize?

rereading the first few pages of this thread again is a sea of very much in character and hearty lolz
Why does black people never want to rock?

damn and I was ready to remove the bookmark from this thread

wait the terrible song from the 80's sampled better not be a reference to "cruel summer" or i am boycotting spin for real.

― scott seward, Monday, August 27, 2012 1:54 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

scott otm!!

fwiw you guys are super overreacting to that ebony piece, she doesnt GAF about brandon shes just taking hipster potshots b/c brandon stepped in it

brandon doesnt like keef either, it probably stung him a bit more than the artisinal beers thing lol

i totally went and got my bag of michael jackson popcorn after the ebony thing was linked to. knew there would be some choice responses to it on here.

i mean, thats not to take away from her overall point. which is about understanding dynamics. i don't think she's telling white ppl they can't talk about hip hop or anything like that at all. just to be aware of the existing dynamics in a conversation when you decide your voice needs to be heard.

♫ mansplain yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds ♫

1) jamilah lemieux may have mischaracterized soderberg's critical stance, but i'm not too bothered by that, tbh. i don't consider her a leading brandon soderberg expert.

2) i would say the writer suggests that because BS is white and writes for a mainly rockist publication, he should be a bit more sensitive about what he's bringing to the discussion. i don't think she accuses white critics of having "misguided aesthetics" or denies their ability to catch feelings while listening to rap. it may be that distance brings perspective, but the particular perspective that white critics bring to hip hop is not always going to be welcome, especially when the line between "talking about music" and "talking about people's lives and culture" gets blurry.

3) okay sure. seems like a very minor quibble.

4) same. i don't like the song, so i don't care about lemieux's defense of it, and i basically agree with her about the social consequences of certain pop messages.

i am glad to have finally learned that the white media is more important to hip-hop discourse than black media, so thanks for that

what does the blah media have to say about hip-hop?

♫ mansplain yourself from mental slavery, none but ourselves can free our minds ♫

― flopson, Monday, August 27, 2012 3:07 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

♫ have no fear of atomic energy, cause none of them can slut-shame time ♫

the pain in Spin falls mainly from mansplain

keep misreading that as manscaping, thinking Details needs to get on this trend of pubic hair trimming in the hip hop community

i am glad to have finally learned that the white media is more important to hip-hop discourse than black media, so thanks for that

From where I sit, the actual writing about hip-hop being done in hip-hop magazines is having little or no impact on the larger musical culture, whereas the writing about hip-hop being done in magazines like Rolling Stone or Spin, or on Pitchfork, is having a disproportionately large impact on the larger musical culture. Am I wrong about that?

Sure Brandon misjudged the dynamics, but I still think the "how dare he" rhetoric is really what drives the Lemieux Ebony piece. And while there's no doubt that the ideology of popular culture tends to reach that culture's audience, there's a sort of passive mimeticism involved in both Lupe's video and Lemieux's text that I don't think you can separate that easily.

Huh. Love Aerial, but not a particular fan of KotM. It would be my 8th or 9th favorite track, probably.

― something of an astrological coup (tipsy mothra), Monday, August 27, 2012 12:30 PM (49 minutes ago)

i'd describe it differently.

the fact that members of the dominant (white) culture write the dominant version of the narrative doesn't surprise me, no. but "important" is subjective.

good point

lol, duh.

that was meant to respond to 訳侮辱's "Am I wrong about that?"

but "king of the mountain" is great

fwiw back in the day (ie when magazines actually had an impact on things) the Source was infinitely more important to hip hop culture than fucking Rolling Stone

From where I sit, the actual writing about hip-hop being done in hip-hop magazines is having little or no impact on the larger musical culture, whereas the writing about hip-hop being done in magazines like Rolling Stone or Spin, or on Pitchfork, is having a disproportionately large impact on the larger musical culture. Am I wrong about that?

― 誤訳侮辱, Monday, August 27, 2012 3:29 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes & no in that places like Complex which seem like a meeting ground between the two have a pretty big impact.

You seen those lists?

a lot of writers at those magazines seem to follow critical decisions made at pfork stereogum etc. which seems weird to me. that sales used to drive coverage more, where now its like this brain trust of writers/editors who all know action bronson, big krit and das racist are but have no clue about more popular regional rappers unless those of us outside that world pierce through. there's an internet-centered myopia. and yeah, it's def driven by coverage from places that are traditionally considered outside hip hop

this is a pretty complex thing, though; there's no critical dialogue at mainstream rap mags, so writers who would have been drawn to those mags in an earlier time are more likely to end up writing for a place where thoughtful criticism has a place. what's funny abt the keef scenario is it seems like for NY mag people that was the tipping point of not letting hipsters dictate coverage, when ironically he's the closest to a populist rap star that has also been internet 'hot' in some time imo.

there's no critical dialogue at mainstream rap mags

this is incorrect btw, i should say that its presence is negligible though. For a long time in the 2000s, pitchfork and allmusic were the only places doing regular album reviews. Everyone else thought the internet meant people no longer cared, which was an absurd miscalculation. then NPR got into it. more recently you have Spin & MTV HIve & places like that celebrating longform. But it's a part of a much bigger puzzle than "white media" vs "black media" or "mainstream" vs "hip hop"

this is a pretty complex thing, though; there's no critical dialogue at mainstream rap mags, so writers who would have been drawn to those mags in an earlier time are more likely to end up writing for a place where thoughtful criticism has a place.

Right. My question is, why is that critical dialogue absent?

xp times 2: gonna regret even trying here, but you mean moreso than like ASAP

the death of andy rooney?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCwzcrG7EsM xp

xp times 2: gonna regret even trying here, but you mean moreso than like ASAP

― This cad needs a cordial introduction to Eugene of Oxbow. (forksclovetofu), Monday, August 27, 2012 3:51 PM (15 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes. outside of new york and maybe LA asap is not getting radio play like that

keef is getting radio play in NY and maybe LA?

like seriously, i have no idea

i have no idea, but he is getting it in atlanta

my point was i wouldn't think of asap as a populist rap star. his lane is def more internet/tumblr/art/high fashion type movement.

i'm getting controversial:

https://twitter.com/skotrok

Keef just started to peak higher than A$AP on national airplay charts like 2 weeks ago, before that i would've been hard pressed to figure out why they'd be considered in different lanes

yeah me too. sounds like a question of perspective.

Keef just started to peak higher than A$AP on national airplay charts like 2 weeks ago, before that i would've been hard pressed to figure out why they'd be considered in different lanes

― some dude, Monday, August 27, 2012 4:25 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

because one built his support off regional buzz & the other one didn't.

i think the way the industry has treated each speaks for itself. you don't see yo gotti & jeezy clambering to collaborate w/ asap. asap's music doesn't sound much like current populist street rap. it doesn't appeal to the same audience. etc