John Coltrane vs. Eddie Van Halen

i'll have to dig up the specifics ...

No, Coltrane-skepticsm is probably not the mainstream here, but this sort of response:

eddie obv: coltrane gets a total free pass

seems to be, to me. Maybe I should have asked what you meant by his getting a free pass first. Anyway, I think Coltrane proved his ability in various more mainstream styles, before he went on to the more dissonant, difficult works. Giant Steps, My Favorite Things, at least sections of A Love Supreme, seem to me to prove his worth; not that that doesn't mean the later recordings aren't open to criticism.

I have always really viscerally hated the sound of Van Halen, and Coltrane was one of the first jazz player whose style I could readily recognize, and one of the few I really like, at least some of the time.

i think he's the Acceptable Face of Free Jazz, viz ultratechnique plus vague-out mysticism (plus cf kofsky, projected radical politics), then say, If you don't get it you have "no soul" or are being ironic. Well, as to his effect on Free Jazz, I'm *not* being ironic: the mysticism was a total disaster. As to who I'd prefer to listen to: ditto. I love free jazz and Coltrane bores and oppresses me.

ps I know he was a nice man.

I'm not a rabid Coltrane fan in the way that I am, say, a rabid Miles Davis fan. I'm not familiar with all of his work, particularly the later stuff. I know nothing about the influence he had on free jazz. But I like it, without having any particularly thought-out reasons for doing so. Let's see... why do I like it?

I know his sound as soon as I hear it. There's a rich, deep, ripe tone.

A Love Supreme is a great pop album. Anyone who can make avant-garde pop is alright by me.

I enjoy the quasi-mystical atmosphere to his work (actually, I've always been fascinated by mysticism.) You could call it a raging calm. Lots of cymbal-work on the drums sets up an oceanic vibe (yes, I know all these adjectives are cliched), the horns storm over the top. It's peaceful, but aggressive. I think probably my favorite stuff of his is post "Chasin the Trane," pre "Ascension" et al.

Elvin Jones is a great drummer. I can listen to him anytime.

I like a lot of the more trad stuff Coltrane did. He sounds great within a small group context. Again, that comes back to his sound, I think. He had a voice. How many musicians do?

See, that's the thing with Hendrix; you can read his influence (so sorry Mark) in two ways that to our modern anti-technique brains seem diametrically opposed: (1) as an innovator in texture and sound, i.e. mastery of feedback, "wigging out", etc.; or (2) technical mastery: fast, really complicated solos that just beg for 30 year old GIT grads to transcribe them into tablature. Is the line between these two all that clear anyway?

http://www.everythingblows.com/rant.cfm?ID=191&startrow=1

-- neil (neilemmerson33@yahoo.co.uk), May 31, 2002.

Thank you for sharing that website, I was unaware of the possible connection between John Coltrane and LSD. However most of what I've read doesn't support this, he even said himself in the liner notes to A Love Supreme, however this might not be true, he might have been taking it.

'Free Jazz Free Pass' - I wonder if, in the UK at least, this has anything to do w/ Phillip Larkin's fear and loathing of mid-late JC - by default JC came to stand for non-trad 'progress'?

But the real innovators were Jazz guitarist, like James Blood Ulmer (with Ornette Coleman), Derek Bailey (solo, man listen to him, he plays the guitar like no-one else), Sonny Sharrock (with Last Exit, the free jazz SUPERGROUP), AND Lenny Breau!!! he could play a bass line while playing a melody, at the same time. If you want Fast guitar playing, and this is 10 times faster than Farlow, listen to Joe Pass, forget about John Mclaughlin, this is the real thing, he played mostly acoustic guitar, proving his power more.

That's the stuff you're supposed to be a little skeptical about.

but whatevah yr opinion of col's mysticism surely it is too difficult (impossible?) to demolish solo=soulo impasse without it. mysticism was smokescreen for all-inclusive group play behind John Coltrane TM, allowing likes of drumma Rashied Ali (real genius of later records?) to flourish. do you like those later recs only for coltrane's input? no. regrettable cult of personality for sure but ultimately necessary I think. In any case things get twisted in the hands of the fans rather than on coltrane's part. It's not my bag, but i don't find it intrusive.

Jordan, I would like to give this some thought and see if I can answer in more detail what it is that I like about some jazz, despite not really considering myself a jazz fan. (I've listened to a fair amount of it for someone who is not a jazz fan.) In very broad terms, for instance, I like the idea of improvisation. I have listened to a lot of Arabic music and some other middle eastern music which involves a lot of improvisation. With Coltrane, sometimes I just like the tone he gets from his instrument which to me seems to have a very individual stamp on it.

The more I think about it, the more confused I get. I think I'd better answer further some time when I have more energy. I do like quite a bit of Sun Ra's recordings, and find John Gilmore's style extremely appealing much of the time.

(I'm still thinking. I have no idea why I have posted so much to this thread.)

i've never hated john mclaughlin, or evh, or coltrane. i was just trolling.

so i went to see the john scheinfield coltrane doc at the the ica a couple of weeks back, with top ironic stalinist gadfly and JC-stan xyzzzz__

and we both agreed it’s p bad and here’s why

it does the usual documentary thing, of hunting out a bunch of talking heads — family, professional, the commentatative pundit — and then merely stitching them together with stills and live footage into the same version of the story we always already know… anything odd or interesting that pop’s out of someone’s mouth is not returned to or dwelt on or even apparently noticed

the shape it offers is utterly conventional: beginning times (where from, where first played)
times with miles (interrupted by drugs); GIANT STEPS; break-up of marriage; A LOVE SUPREME; final tour of japan and sad early death

these mounting avant-garde milestones are all routinely invoked, but really no attempt is made to say what made them milestones — nine musicians are presenting yabbing away, but nearly none of them say anything whatever about the changing content of the music, his technique, his approach, what was concretely at stake in the choices being made, on-stage or in the studio. there was no glimpse AT ALL abt what it is that JC actually did, that was new to and impressed other musicians — or bothered them. wayne shorter for example, a shrewd and highly intelligent man (as well as player), is on-screen for a little. I interviewed him once and got him to talk abt the effect the arrival of the beatles had on the scene in c.1964: he was funny and interesting abt how much they divided jazzers, how some pricked their ears up and others just said “more nonsense from whitey”. we know that jazz in the early 60s wasn’t a collegiate love-in, anything but… but JC has undergone retrospective MLK-ification, and the fights and fears are forgotten in the haze of pro forma sanctification

(i’m not really dissing shorter, sonny rollins, mccoy tyner, benny golson or jimmy heath here — the latter two, as not-stellar-musicians who were JC’s friends and colleagues in the early days, did give good backstage anecdote, even if mainly abt the junk-ambience everyone was battling with, and the first three were either asked dull questions or — as likely? — had their interesting answers consigned to the cutting room floor)

(here’s who I am somewhat dissing however: carlos santana, wynton marsalis, cornel west, BILL fkn CLINTON)

(tho west clearly knows little abt music in the sense I’m thinking abt, and somewhat gave that away in a performance of twinkly down-with-the-streets bullshitting that was at least somewhat signalling that he knew this doc was trash and was playing along, for you to spot and the director not to)

(and santana and also john densmore were at least talking as fans responding to something on the way to their own music and sensibility: the former a notorious spiritual hat guitarwank bore after his early records, the latter apparently a massive elvin jones nut as a teen)

(cue for santana, the claim — do I believe this, I am not sure — that when he’s on tour he “purifies” every hotel room by burning incense and playing the whole of a love supreme) (cue for densmore lots of stills of JIM MORRISON, surely coltrane’s purest equivalent in the rock universe    )

(also there were some historian-biographers and some embarrassed-seeming family members, who obviously love their dad but feel somewhat squinty abt this tin-eared project — their dad who I am happy to continue to believe was an unusually lovely and generous man, especially for a working musician) (scope for an ingenious approach: present JC as the anti-miles, and deal w/their journeys in compare-contrast parallel)

so yes, i was hoping at least to learn something or see or hear something that that wd help inch me in a little past my long-term JC-sceptic status: I get that people adore him and that he is considered important, but this very highly important contribution that none of us can put into word bores me, I find his tone entirely unappealing, and ditto the fetishisation of granite-hard everests of effort in the journey, like some kind of saxophonic rich piano. PEOPLE ONLY EVER TALK LIKE THIS ABOUT HIM — or if they don’t, they either weren’t selected for this doc or the relevant passages ended up on the cutting-room floor (I actually suspect this is quite likely, at least with the musicians

and I have no yen to push back on that much, but NOBODY TALKS ABOUT HIM WELL and I wish that could change: huckster-pundits clinton west and WYNTON FKN MARSALIS worst offenders in this respect. until the peerlessly maddening moment — xyzzzz__ and I p much turned to each other and shouted #SMDH — when EINSTEIN no less was wheeled out to explain and explore what GENIUS is, what it does and and how it work, completely with equations and everything floating past in the edit-collage.

of course they didn’t actually deploy the equations in any coherent or speculative or provocatising way, but they DID display them. the publisher’s motto is: every equation included in a popular science-writing book halves the readership… well here we get http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/einstein-eq.jpeg but nothing abt chords or scales or what gitler meant by “sheets of sound” or the west african sound of JC’s soprano in “naima”, the various things (political, “spiritual”) that the search for FREE actually meant to ppl. to coltrane or to anyone else…

(minor side issue: has relativity special or general even been used intelligibly to illuminate music? I think likely NO: i’d kind of love to see it pulled off somewhere, if only in the form of trolling, but — as an actual semi-credentialed mathematician w/a degree and everything, this was just halfwit piffle)

in general — and the einstein moment entirely fits here — the interstitial work was just lazy garbage. it was an era of strong photography, so it could hardly help looking OK from the stills angle, despite very few pictures you hadn’t seen 30 times before (and every photo was panned and zoomed in the same dull way): some of the live footage was genuinely new (at least to me; tho I very much doubt to an actual hard-seeking fan). it rested a lot too on some (I thought) quite bad mystical afro-futurist art as the backdrop point of rest. whenever they recreated a newspaper splash w/headline and photo, if you looked carefully you could see that the paragraphs of text too small to read were ALL just lorem ipsum fucking dolor , which wtf you half-measures cheapskates (obviously the recent TSwift hommage to same was witty and cheeky in comparison)

and a final bad decision: denzel washington reading as coltrane’s actual voice, which just took away any quirky sense of the man himself and replaced it with humbug hollywood gravitas

(tbf this^^^ is a super-touch ask for any actor I think: but I’d almost have preferred — since we’re anyway in wynton-propinquity — something more outrageously ken burnsy as a v/o. something that gave a sense of past times and lost sensibilities: a courteous gentlemanly black north carolinan at sea in the turbulent city) (one of the takeaways from the stream of stills is how melancholy and also how gawky he often looked; his ungainly country-boy goofiness: he was no dapper hipster, quite the opposite)

so the move ppl use to dodge talking abt the music is donning the spiritual hat by proxy: and then — having invoked spirituality — say nothing whatever about it, what it means, how coltrane deployed it (as mask, as weapon, as balm, as what the fuck ever). closest to achieving this is sonny rollins, gnomic as ever and resplendent in an amazing crimson suit: for a start he substitutes the word “celestial” for the word “spiritual”, and does so in a context that implies the JC’s self-constructed pan-faith religiosity was a way to step away — away away far far away — from planet earth’s grief and crimes and conflict, and explore how to see and sketch and perhaps fashion shared samenesses among the belief-systems and cultural sonics of the many warring clans. “the big picture,” rollins calls it, simply and directly enough: and of course the doc sweeps past this and makes no connections, and hints at no sense that they just heard what they heard…

of course the word celestial (as slyboots rollins well knows) takes us to the jazz einstein who could (IMO) crack open all these issues, but we sweep past him entirely: this would be sun ra, whose chief sideman john gilmore is said to have inspired JC to exclaim “he’s got it! John’s got the concept!” ra is dead and so is gilmore, but marshall allen is (at time of posting) still alive and well and active!! why not get him in front of the camera? this film is after all clumsily named for a piece inspired by gilmore’s sound. “space music is an introductory prelude to the sound of greater infinity,” says ra. “it is a order of sounds synchronised to the different order of being”

yes this is opaque and riddling — hallo and welcome to the heliocentric worlds! — but ra’s sense of vaster hierarchies or orders and layered geometries as a recalibration of mere mundane perspective is at least a well enough trod approach to see coltrane’s journey somewhat from a side elevation: and ra’s bleak pessimism is also a help I think. instead of the somewhat numbing glad-hand positivity of (allegedly) achieved lovely oneness — which is what I’m most allergic to in the backward-looking coltrane discourse — there’s SR’s often-stated belief that the human race haven’t got the concept and won’t get it and it’s already after the end of the world, brother. JC didn’t believe this — or anyway couldn’t bear to concede it to himself — and his sound is a FIGHT against it, on the exact same battle, and a fight (I assume) against the elements in himself which were drawn to ra’s scornful (and invigorating) anti-humanism.

instead of course we get wynton, riding the reverence trane with total chutzpah, given his known views on free: and — despite his endless ability to grab up his horn and demonstrate the rhythms of a king oliver joint — again saying nothing (good OR bad) abt the musical choices trane was making. It somewhat occurred to me to wonder whether his condition of involvement was the non-discussion of ra (who his mentor stanley crouch has dismissed as a pure charlatan). at least — speaking of charlatans, or anyway trickster-figures enjoying playing them on TV — cornel west has the grace to say of ASCENSION that he has no idea what the fuck is going on, but he’s happy to be long for the ride bcz no doubt one day he will (in other words, I’m kinda glad someone voice this sentiment and that it was someone embracing it not denouncing it) (I might as well say here that west is someone I’m super-ambivalent about, as observer and as troll)

(plus I quite like imagining how grumpy CW probably was at the screening to find himself alongside fellow huckster-pundit clinton, doing his own — different but equal — version of a similar hustle for would-be-woke but unwakaeble northern urban whitey)

so anyway it ends in a crazily aggravating place which (A) exactly approaches the pan-cultural sense of mourning and bearing witness, JC in japan on his final tour, visiting the temples at hiroshima and so on: and hunting for a celestial language that expresses the feels and the meaning of this for him, and then (B) inflects the entire story through the self-regarding narrative of an insane japanese collector-fan who lives in a room that’s a cave-shrine to the commodity god coltrane, just jam-packed with every single gatherable object. the fact of this guy at all is a tell; a symptom: except he of all people is the worst person to be telling it

(i mean, imaginably not: he might have had insightful perspective, it’s just that he very evidently — after just a few moments in his presence — doesn’t. meanwhile we’re watching JC touring and already — tho it’s not clear if he knows it yet — mortally ill: which is simultaneously moving and maddening)

two last points (good moments thrown away):
• there was a colour shoot from the early 60s I’d never seen before where the photographer had directed him to look about in portentous male-model style in some backstage space full of ropes and ladders, which made me grin, bcz you can see his ugh-this-is-dumb look as he does it (this may be why the pictures aren’t well known of course)
• the tale of trane and miles feels thrice-told and yet the evident interesting friction of it feels to me endless sidestepped and elided: so of course the “how do you stop? just take the horn our of your mouth!” story is trotted out, but of course it’s also referred to as joke and in-studio banter, miles being incrutable his non-corny self, and not at all explored as an actual real aesthetic flashpoint between the two. there’s even revealing live 1959 footage of miles side of stage while trane solos in (apt title) “so what” and you can absolutely tell he’s thinking GET ON WITH IT JOHN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6w4FI0Jq0lI

squinty s/b squinky

the unnamed ninth of the nine musicians named was COMMON: he did not imo provide the needed key to this door

actually they shd have interviewed dave q and then concept-structured this thing overtly round lorem ipsum dolor

dave q would have been awesome. I think I'll wait till this shows up on a BBC4 Jazz Night.

Wow, this sounds like a colossal mountain of manure. The recently released Dave Liebman/Joe Lovano Compassion album, that was originally broadcast as a JC 40th death anniversary on R3, is something I like right now.

you know you've been on ilx too long when the phrase "momus, do you like gitler?" pops into your head :D

incidentally when i try to expand the thread of the invention of the (correct and useful) term "spiritual hat" it tells me there is something dangerous on it above and beyond deej's (correct and useful) low opinion of a love supreme: JAZZ IS LIKE HEROIN TO ME ! ! ! ~~~~ ILM POST-1945 JAZZ ALBUMS POLL - THE RESULTS COUNTDOWN (now counting top 25!)

(here’s who I am somewhat dissing however: carlos santana, wynton marsalis, cornel west, BILL fkn CLINTON)

I swear Carlos Santana has some kind of right of first refusal in a contract where he can appear in any jazz documentary. He never has ANYTHING interesting to say, it's always just like "That's what improvisation is about. It comes from the soul."

i saw a documentary once about him where he said that a guitar note shd have the sound and feel of a squeezed testicle

or something like that

ok well that's interesting

did he mean like a kick in the stellar regions?

forget his exact words but my memory seems convinced that he meant manual squeezing shd be involved, i think he did a gesture

Def gonna call my jazz fusion collabo with Carlos "Nether Regions"