I'd kinda like to quote the original Pete Wylie interview in which the term arose, but you know what — I lent my copy of NME that week to Matt Black of Coldcut (then Matt Cohn of the Jazz Insects), because it contained a review of the first A Certain Ratio LP — and he THREW IT AWAY instead of returning it!! When I complained — noting that Ian Penman had written said review — Matt replied: "Mark, you ARE Ian Penman."
So can I be Everett True yet?
― mark s, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
The origins of the term don’t matter too much. For me rockist means an approach – current irredeemable rockers include U2, Primal Scream, Manic Street Preachers, Pearl Jam. If you can air guitar to it, it’s rock. Whether you care for redemption is a separate issue.
― Guy, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
Best definition of rock. Ever. :)
― Omar, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
Who says ILM debates never get anywhere?
― Nick, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
― Stevie Nixed, Thursday, 3 May 2001 00:00 (twenty-three years ago) link
Surely this would mean that Smiths and Belle & Sebastian fans = rockists, and Rolling Stones fans = non-rockists ?
― Patrick, Tuesday, 21 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Tim, Tuesday, 21 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
Stones = MOST INAUTHENTIC ROCK GROUP OF ALL TIME BAR NONE, and that's what's GRATE abt em of course. Rockists SAY they like em, but when you go deeper, it's all talk.
(Patrick, is that you moved and back and settled in? Or are you another anti-anti- rockist Patrick joined forces with the first?)
― mark s, Tuesday, 21 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― dave q, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Patrick, Wednesday, 22 August 2001 00:00 (twenty-two years ago) link
― Jan Geerinck, Wednesday, 6 November 2002 22:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 23 December 2002 06:32 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Amateurist (amateurist), Monday, 23 December 2002 06:33 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Lord Custos Epsilon (Lord Custos Epsilon), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:16 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Aaron W (Aaron W), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:24 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Johnney B (Johnney B), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:25 (twenty-one years ago) link
Did I get that right?
― Frühlingsmute (Wintermute), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:28 (twenty-one years ago) link
Albums over songs. "Feeling" over, uh, other stuff. Individual performance and "real" performance over the "fake" (think synths and drum machines). A focus on lyrics. Narrative. "Development".
says Josh.
AND THERE'S NOTHING WRONG WITH IT!
As a side point, I don't think that the world is rockist at all. It only turns into a rockist review when a reviewer who's only used to reviewing rock tries to review somethign else - not equipped with the tools maybe? If you're used to talking about how an album flows from song to song (which is often, for me, an element in the enjoyment of music) how do you cope if there's only 1 track? Or 12 indistinguisble tracks? How do you give a drum machine a mark out of ten for the drumming?
P.S. I'd like to append all of this by saying that I really don't knwo what I'm talking about. Thank you.
― Johnney B (Johnney B), Monday, 12 May 2003 11:35 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 12 May 2003 12:11 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Andrew Thames (Andrew Thames), Monday, 12 May 2003 12:13 (twenty-one years ago) link
― Dadaismus (Dada), Monday, 12 May 2003 12:14 (twenty-one years ago) link
Privileging of received wisdom over new discoursePrivileging of credibility / authenticityPrivileging of numbers and categorisation / lists
Mythology making the arbitrary appear necessary / essential
Making the cultural appear natural by making it appear to be invisible
The pursuit of objectivity
― Jimmybommy JimmyK'KANG (Nick Southall), Thursday, 16 September 2004 08:16 (nineteen years ago) link
― LSD ARISTOCAT (ex machina), Wednesday, 5 January 2005 19:39 (nineteen years ago) link
in america some seem to appreciate the post-punk 79-81 'real uk independant scene that we in uK have 'misplaced'and are refinding - see the Messthetics albums - brill bootleg compilations...
sorry am rambling and losing the thread..
jimmy
― james rogers, Wednesday, 10 August 2005 21:12 (eighteen years ago) link
― fe zaffe (fezaffe), Wednesday, 10 August 2005 22:35 (eighteen years ago) link
― bobby bedelia (van dover), Saturday, 27 January 2007 04:49 (seventeen years ago) link
yay van dover
― Hoosteen (Hoosteen), Saturday, 27 January 2007 06:18 (seventeen years ago) link
― chad (chad), Saturday, 27 January 2007 07:10 (seventeen years ago) link
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Saturday, 27 January 2007 07:38 (seventeen years ago) link
― critique de la vie quotidienne (modestmickey), Saturday, 27 January 2007 07:55 (seventeen years ago) link
― StanM (StanM), Saturday, 27 January 2007 09:18 (seventeen years ago) link
I prefer k-punk's "romantics of production vs romantics of consumption"
In a funny way "romantics" captures something hard to define but essential about both rockism and popism in a way that "authenticity" doesn't - at a stretch I'd call it their emotionally charged inconsistency.
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 27 January 2007 10:07 (seventeen years ago) link
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Saturday, 27 January 2007 11:19 (seventeen years ago) link
― m the g (mister the guanoman), Saturday, 27 January 2007 13:06 (seventeen years ago) link
Conversely, pop-discourse treats the pop star as the primary source of production, when in fact in reality many pop stars do not actually produce most of their own music beyond providing vocals - however if listeners ascribe to popism and/or pop discourse, they may choose to act as if the pop stars are the primary producers.
So rock involves a fantasy of consumption in order to preserve the primacy of production, whereas pop involves a fantasy of production in order to preserve the primacy of consumption.
It is irrelevant here that pop listeners "know" that their favourite pop star is not actually writing the songs, just as it is irrelevant that the rock listeners know that they have not actually seen their favourite hot new band live yet, or listened to their album on vinyl in a room. It's the acting as if these things are true in the face of knowledge to the contrary which is the very essence of the fantasies.
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 27 January 2007 13:17 (seventeen years ago) link
I seriously disagree with this, Tim. Rock-discourse actually values an album after it's been listened to repeatedly; masterpieces "hold up" after three dozen listens.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 27 January 2007 13:29 (seventeen years ago) link
― ampersand, spades, semicolon (cis), Saturday, 27 January 2007 13:34 (seventeen years ago) link
obviously one can listen to an album in one go many times over the course of a lifetime.
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 27 January 2007 13:35 (seventeen years ago) link
― Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Saturday, 27 January 2007 13:36 (seventeen years ago) link
― M@tt He1g3s0n: oh u mad cuz im stylin on u (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 27 January 2007 15:16 (seventeen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Saturday, 27 January 2007 16:45 (seventeen years ago) link
OK, I getcha.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 27 January 2007 22:15 (seventeen years ago) link
― M@tt He1g3s0n: oh u mad cuz im stylin on u (Matt Helgeson), Saturday, 27 January 2007 23:26 (seventeen years ago) link
Hmm...ideas for future Teena Marie album liner notes.
― Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 27 January 2007 23:43 (seventeen years ago) link
I mean that, in 2006, it is not "natural social behaviour" to listen to an album in one go on vinyl in a room, but it IS to listen to MP3s in bits on the bus. The rockist constructs false environments in which to consume rock because rock needs to be consumed "properly", that's how it's designed - the popist consumes pop whenever and wherever he/she can, because that's what pop is for. Ergo the consumption of pop is more authentic, because it doesn't require falsely-constructed environments, and I would argue that, say, Lex (as definitive strawman popist!) would see it as a positive thing that people listen to Ciara on the bus, because that(consumption)'s authentic, and who gives too figs whether the music was made "because Ciara was feeling it, man, and needed to express it", or because some producer had a tune and some A&R man had a face for the tune (which is inauthentic, because it is manipulative.
And we all know how rock is (supposedly) produced - friends-from-childhood in the garage.
So, pop manipulates you when it is produced, because of the (supposed) unnaturalness of it's production, but not when it's consumed, cos you can consume it whenever and wherever you like. Rock manipulates you when it is consumed, because it ought to be live, or all in one go, but not when it's produced because kids in garages with cheap guitars is "natural".
Of course, pop lies about it's autheticity of consumption just as much as rock lies about it's authenticity of production; the lies necessary tools in the pop playbook in order to construct myths which fit the music into the right slot in order to attract the pre-ordained fanbase necessary for it to succeed. Which is why Scritti Politti "fail" at pop and The Kooks "fail" at rock.
― Sick Mouthy (Nick Southall), Sunday, 28 January 2007 07:29 (seventeen years ago) link
lol
― Auf Der Martini (Ye Mad Puffin), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 14:14 (one year ago) link
it's more fun if you call them shit instead of not relevant - you'd be half wrong but have some courage in your own subjectivity
what's the rockism of appeals-to-relevance? it's a real thing and you can do it for or against rock or pop or whatever
― your original display name is still visible (Left), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 14:49 (one year ago) link
It’s a far cry from previous decades, when artists like Elton John, Kate Bush and Phil Collins – who made music about grown-up concerns, which could be enjoyed by teens alike – soundtracked our lives. (It’s no surprise that this is the current state of pop in a country whose music industry is, according to the charts, propped up by a holy trinity of po-faced men: Ed Sheeran, George Ezra and Lewis Capaldi.)
I like Phil Collins but also it's very funny to use Phil Collins as an example here (and surely Phil is at least as po-faced as Sheeran, Ezra and Capaldi?)
― soref, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 15:23 (one year ago) link
I want someone to write a take on rockism that explains how Phil Collins and Steely Dan were the two uncoolest things imaginable to rockist gen x-ers but are both loved by rockist millenials. I have no idea what zoomers think of them, if anything
― soref, Wednesday, 8 February 2023 15:27 (one year ago) link
the early definitions on this thread are interesting in how diverse they are. what I'm getting is that rockism is a lot like fascism in how syncretic and incoherent it is and how many different guises can wear. someone could write a thing on ur-rockism like umberto eco did for fascism
― your original display name is still visible (Left), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 15:38 (one year ago) link
"We wanted go back to the sound of just four guys in a gym."
― INDEPENDENTS DAY BY STEVEN SPILBERG (President Keyes), Wednesday, 8 February 2023 16:13 (one year ago) link
i prefer 'whinerism'
― CerebralCaustic, Thursday, 9 February 2023 00:02 (one year ago) link
Why don't we ask Freddie deBoer
― Malevolent Arugula (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 9 February 2023 00:03 (one year ago) link
runner up: crypto-poptimists & crypto-rockists
― CerebralCaustic, Thursday, 9 February 2023 00:06 (one year ago) link
Kelefa Sanneh, Robert Christgau, and Douglas Wolk are the sages quoted in this. 2024 rockism style. the battle never ends.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1c7Boc2CPMg
― scott seward, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 16:50 (four days ago) link
Intergenerational!
― Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 17:30 (four days ago) link
i will never watch one of that person's videos, not sure if that makes me pro or anti rockism
― budo jeru, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 17:48 (four days ago) link
idk this person + they just said, "it's almost like the more critical your opinion is, the more valid it is" and i like that they're calling this out, especially in re:"flops." he isn't making this point outright, but my conclusion to be drawn from his points is that "rockism" is kind of anti-appreciation, unless a very strict set of arbitrary and ill-defined rules are in place. i like that being called out.
otherwise, good video. brings up relevant new examples to support the old anti-rockism tropes.
― interstellar anthropologist+music philosopher, (Austin), Tuesday, 21 May 2024 17:53 (four days ago) link
it sucks people can’t write stuff down instead of requiring people to stare at their face while they talk at them
― brimstead, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 17:59 (four days ago) link
that guy is okay. i actually enjoy his genre videos. he does good quick histories of things and he brings up examples that you wouldn't expect him to bring up. he makes good connections. he's more of a metal/punk person.
― scott seward, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 18:12 (four days ago) link
He was less cringe inducing than most Talking to the camera guys
― A So-Called Pulitzer price winner (President Keyes), Tuesday, 21 May 2024 18:18 (four days ago) link
it sucks people can’t write stuff down instead of requiring people to stare at their face while they talk at them― brimstead, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 17:59 (forty-two minutes ago) link
― brimstead, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 17:59 (forty-two minutes ago) link
taking an online course right now and the prof loves making videos and barely types anything up, there are times where i have to scroll through a 17-minute video to discover a class policy that would take me 10 seconds at most to find on a legit syllabus
― intheblanks, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 18:45 (four days ago) link
unrelated to rockism i suppose but i also wish people wrote things down instead of making videos
― intheblanks, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 18:46 (four days ago) link
We’re entering the post-literate society
― Are you addicted to struggling with your horse? (Boring, Maryland), Tuesday, 21 May 2024 18:48 (four days ago) link
Writism
― A So-Called Pulitzer price winner (President Keyes), Tuesday, 21 May 2024 18:49 (four days ago) link
Writing is the rockism of human comm
― Are you addicted to struggling with your horse? (Boring, Maryland), Tuesday, 21 May 2024 18:49 (four days ago) link
One guy in a room with a typewriter
― A So-Called Pulitzer price winner (President Keyes), Tuesday, 21 May 2024 18:51 (four days ago) link
So where's the thread for complaining abt video (audio to tbh) as preferred mode of communication? Ours is undoubtedly a civilisation in decline
Images of text too... What is the fucking deal? I get meme templates, at least I know where they originated, but wtf is up with images of small chunks of horribly formatted text?
― corrs unplugged, Tuesday, 21 May 2024 19:50 (four days ago) link
hot medium/cool medium iirc
― A So-Called Pulitzer price winner (President Keyes), Tuesday, 21 May 2024 19:53 (four days ago) link
i just heard about civilization in decline on a vid by plato, why do new school kids need to have one name all the time
― well below the otm mendoza line (Hunt3r), Wednesday, 22 May 2024 01:27 (three days ago) link
we do have this fwiw
Music Criticism in Video Form
― budo jeru, Wednesday, 22 May 2024 02:27 (three days ago) link
ah yeah forgot about that one.
― scott seward, Wednesday, 22 May 2024 02:27 (three days ago) link