lololololololol
― Noodle Vague, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 20:01 (sixteen years ago) link
okay there needs to be a thread examining precisely what is and what is not goth, what constitutes goth, and why some bands who are not goth are too often described as goth
― Mark Clemente, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 20:15 (sixteen years ago) link
time to find out who is over and who is under thirty
― sexyDancer, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 20:17 (sixteen years ago) link
If we make this a live poll, it's Swans by a ridiculous margin. And because of that, I pick Swans anyway. Bonus points for having a better sense of when to stop. Double bonus points for better deployment of arguably embarrasing female member. Triple bonus points because Skin/World of Skin is better than any Sonic Youth side project. And so on...
Over 30, but of course.
― dlp9001, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 20:34 (sixteen years ago) link
SY, easy. Basically just for the stretch from Bad Moon Rising on thru Sister (Daydream Nation and Goo are fine, too). I appreciate Swans and the sound itself is often spectacular, but I can't relate to Gira. His world-view is such an overwhelming part of the music - not limited to the lyrics - and it often seems silly to me. Undercuts the gravitas they're so obviously striving for.
Agree that SY had a briefer "worth listening to" era.
P.S. Anyone who won't admit the Swans' (perhaps unintentional) gothic aspects isn't really being honest about it. High drama, erotic negation of the self and the flesh, obsession with filth and purity, literary despair, S&M trappings, etc. Nothing wrong with that, mind.
― Bob Standard, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 20:46 (sixteen years ago) link
plus deep vocals
― sexyDancer, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 20:48 (sixteen years ago) link
Have to disagree here. SY's "worth listening to" period is roughly 1986-2006.
― jaymc, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 20:48 (sixteen years ago) link
time to find out who is over and who is under thirtyforty
― poortheatre, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 20:50 (sixteen years ago) link
Cop/Brave Men Run
It's a toughie. While I only really like Cop/Raping a slave era Swans, I love all eras of Sonic Youth so its SY for me I think.
BRAVE MEN RUUNNNN!
― I know, right?, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 21:05 (sixteen years ago) link
Sonic Youth is still gonna win this, because all the Sonic Youth fans who have never heard Swans (except for seeing Angels of Light live one time a few years ago) are going to mindlessly click Sonic Youth and then forget about this thread until the results are announced.
-- jaymc, Tuesday, November 27, 2007 2:45 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Link
shut up
― Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 21:18 (sixteen years ago) link
I like Swans, but there is no real contest. Sonic Youth is maybe the best band of the last 25 years.
― Dan S, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 21:22 (sixteen years ago) link
Never really 'got' Sonic Youth, but Swans were a big part of my late teens/twenties
― Jack Battery-Pack, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 21:59 (sixteen years ago) link
were you a goth?????
― Mr. Que, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 22:00 (sixteen years ago) link
is it me or has steve shelley been a boring-ass drummer since goo? i'm just listening to murray street right now, man, the guitars are awesome. moore/renaldo are so confident in just about everything they're doing. but shelley is just boring, no interesting dynamics, nothing. this is sad because his work on the earlier stuff is incredible.
― Mark Clemente, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 22:04 (sixteen years ago) link
just listened to swans for the first time - i didnt realize it was a goth thing
People are so stupid.
We'll lie down in the warm green grass And the sun will shine on our pale shape Our blood will flow black in the dirt And a black rose will grow where we laid
― Sundar, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 22:07 (sixteen years ago) link
Never understood the appeal of Swans' monotonous, pointless music; Children of God may well be the most boring album I've ever heard. Over 40, btw.
xp
I think Steve's drumming has improved over the years; the last couple of SY albums may well feature his best work ever.
― JN$OT, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 22:09 (sixteen years ago) link
ppl w/ fish eyes n brown sox
― sexyDancer, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 22:10 (sixteen years ago) link
Sonic Youth by a landslike and I have (mostly dubbed) copies of something like 5 Swans albums I haven't listened to in years. I'm frankly amazed at the number of people who find them more consistently listenable.
― Sundar, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 22:11 (sixteen years ago) link
wasn't the swans/goth connection kind of settled on another swans thread?
― Mark Clemente, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 22:15 (sixteen years ago) link
ah yes. just read this thread and ctrl+f for "goth"
― Mark Clemente, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 22:16 (sixteen years ago) link
this pretty much says it all for me
― stephen, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 22:16 (sixteen years ago) link
why are y'all fighting over these lame old goth bands when there's a new Britney album
― latebloomer, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 22:18 (sixteen years ago) link
OTM
― Sundar, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 22:19 (sixteen years ago) link
actually not OTM
― latebloomer, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 22:27 (sixteen years ago) link
NOTM
― jhøshea, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 22:28 (sixteen years ago) link
IIOTMOII?IDK
― I know, right?, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 22:50 (sixteen years ago) link
DYK?
― I know, right?, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 22:51 (sixteen years ago) link
Swans, on the merit of their older material. Once they delved into the goth/folk stuff *dodges bottles* they lost me.
I dig old SY about equally, but I want to see Swans get creamed.
― circa1916, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 22:51 (sixteen years ago) link
*don't want
nobody hurts you like a cop with a club. nobody rapes you like a cop with a club.
― ian, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 23:41 (sixteen years ago) link
in jail
― sexyDancer, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 23:47 (sixteen years ago) link
I really want to vote for Swans (especially as Jarboe is a client and personal friend). But I haven't stopped listening to the first three SY albums since high school. That staying power is inarguable.
I wish they'd broken up after Evol. That's the event horizon where they could no longer escape de-evolution.
And yes, over 30.
― Nate Carson, Tuesday, 27 November 2007 23:50 (sixteen years ago) link
TS: sonic death vs. public castration is a good idea
― Edward III, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 03:28 (sixteen years ago) link
ps I voted for live skull
― Edward III, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 03:29 (sixteen years ago) link
sy only cuz tremens exists
― daanyel, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 03:42 (sixteen years ago) link
Sonic Youth is maybe the best band of the last 25 years.
you're high.
― Alex in NYC, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 04:02 (sixteen years ago) link
*awaits a quarrel*
― Bo Jackson Overdrive, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 04:02 (sixteen years ago) link
The last Sonic Youth album that I gave more than a couple listens was Washing Machine. I got the next few but I never listened to them after a couple of plays. I've listened to all of the early records tons and enjoyed them quite a bit.
I've heard the early Swans music and while I can appreciate the intensity, I cannot listen to it at all, it is just way too ugly. I really like some of their later records especially Children of God, The Great Annihilator and Soundtracks of the Blind. All of their stuff is all way too serious, which is kind of their deal, but the later records have some really interesting production and sonic textures.
"is it me or has steve shelley been a boring-ass drummer since goo?"
This is a big part of the problem. Shelley used to play like a mad Keith Moon type with all sorts of crazy rolls on the toms, but that is long gone.
― earlnash, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 04:07 (sixteen years ago) link
The thing with the later swans, sadman folkie material, is that it's usually a love it/hate it kind of thing. i'm iffy on it. i've kept "the burning world" only for a one song, really--"god damn the sun." other than that i'm an early (and early LIVE) guy all the way.
not that i don't love sonic youth, with reservations. another band who was one of my favorites in high school but i've largely stopped paying attention to them and only listening to bad moon rising/sister/daydream rarely.
― ian, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 05:00 (sixteen years ago) link
michael gira's invisible jukebox in the new wire, he mentions sonic youth a little after being played glenn branca. the rest of the interview doesn't have all that much that he hasn't said before, but it's still pretty interesting.
― Mark Clemente, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 23:44 (sixteen years ago) link
saw angels of light once, they were ok. SONIC YOOF 4 LYFE
― 6335, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 23:50 (sixteen years ago) link
Sweet, I'm high, too.
― jaymc, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 23:56 (sixteen years ago) link
This is really a TS: Dating Madonna vs. Re-Naming Your Band After Madonna, right?
― jaymc, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 23:57 (sixteen years ago) link
good for swans then? err maybe not so good. anyways so that wasn't just a rumor?
― Mark Clemente, Thursday, 29 November 2007 00:05 (sixteen years ago) link
Apparently. From a 1987 interview:
THURSTON: ... she's like, she used to live in New York, she went out with a friend of ours for a while, and I won't tell you who, because you know who it is. And she was in this band called "Spinal...", this weird Gang-of-Four-ish new wave band, with these kids who were in Deep Six, Circus Mort, who turned into the Swans. I mean, there's a weird connection there; so she is actually part of the Swans thing.
S: Madonna is part of the whole Swans trip? This has the makings of a real underground Weekly World News story. . .
THURSTON: Weekly Weird News.
S: A real news flash: Madonna went out with Michael Gira, we have pictures.
THURSTON: Why Michael Gira?
S: Well, I don't know, you said she was hanging out with the Swans, I mean...
THURSTON: Well, you can't say Michael Gira, 'cause he'd be offended. Michael Gira would be very offended.
KIM: Yeah, he's a very private person.
― jaymc, Thursday, 29 November 2007 00:12 (sixteen years ago) link
haha!
― Mark Clemente, Thursday, 29 November 2007 00:13 (sixteen years ago) link
not high, jaymc. jest jokin'
― 6335, Thursday, 29 November 2007 00:22 (sixteen years ago) link
Did people who hate on later Swans listen to the last three albums, which were fucking raging full-on?
― J0hn D., Thursday, 29 November 2007 00:34 (sixteen years ago) link
i wish i could be all cool and badass and pick the swans but i like sonic youth better.
― M@tt He1ges0n, Thursday, 29 November 2007 00:39 (sixteen years ago) link
I dig Sonic Youth but I digest one of their albums I lose all desire to listen to it ever again. Swans albums keep giving more and more. So I am not being badass by picking Swans. I just like their music more.
This is another thread were Alex, who I think is my age & was probably listening to all the exact same shit as me in the mid-eighties, says "fuck you, this excellent music is not goth" and I say "it's very excellent but all the goths loved it & there probably would have been less of it if the goths hadn't kept the whole enterprise afloat" and we go around like that. "Goth" for some people means "music I don't like" I think.
― J0hn D., Thursday, 29 November 2007 01:00 (sixteen years ago) link
now tell me about your father
― Edward III, Thursday, 29 November 2007 04:02 (sixteen years ago) link
I'm too much of a pussy to like the Swans much, I guess. Gimme my watered-down, sub-no-wave, post-hippie jam muzik, thanx.
xp x ?
Gof - the life-style choice of tru poseurs!
― JN$OT, Thursday, 29 November 2007 09:24 (sixteen years ago) link
Having cloth ears != being a pussy.
― Noodle Vague, Thursday, 29 November 2007 09:27 (sixteen years ago) link
sez, mr. vague?
― JN$OT, Thursday, 29 November 2007 09:29 (sixteen years ago) link
everybody in new york circa 1980-82 w/a tangential connection to the music scene has a madonna story. the number of guys she "dated" must be astronomical!
some of their early gigs were like this thread title -- swans "VS" sonic youth, a noize battle unto the death.
i always liked sonic youth better but remain in awe at the gira's musical progression over time, inspiring.
― m coleman, Thursday, 29 November 2007 11:13 (sixteen years ago) link
Strawberry Switchblade
lolol
― onimo, Thursday, 29 November 2007 11:32 (sixteen years ago) link
You missed the bit about The Mission having more depth than them.
― aldo, Thursday, 29 November 2007 11:35 (sixteen years ago) link
That Rose McDowall is such a poseur eh?
― Noodle Vague, Thursday, 29 November 2007 11:39 (sixteen years ago) link
I love the Mish, but "depth" isn't something I'd expect from a band singing about Faerie Rings and Wastelands.
― Alex in NYC, Thursday, 29 November 2007 14:58 (sixteen years ago) link
Sonic Youth, because they were quite simply the better band.
That said, I agree with Edward III that Live Skull were better than either SY or Swans.
But then I would also argue that Savage Republic were better than Sonic Youth or Swans or Live Skull.
And then there's Nice Strong Arm.
At which point it gets tricky......
― PhilK, Thursday, 29 November 2007 21:45 (sixteen years ago) link
SWANS completely crush Nice Strong Arm. There is no contest. There is no debate. There is no funeral. There is no apology. Just the merciless, humiliating crushing of Nice Strong Arm.
― Alex in NYC, Thursday, 29 November 2007 22:12 (sixteen years ago) link
Everything post "Reality Bath" yes. But "Reality Bath", no. That really is an extraordinary record.
― PhilK, Thursday, 29 November 2007 22:13 (sixteen years ago) link
do swans use special goth grip to accomplish this crushing? i have heard the the nice arm is quite strong and crush-resistant. thank you. i am interested in this information.
― jhøshea, Thursday, 29 November 2007 22:15 (sixteen years ago) link
http://www.historyhouse.com/img/c/russo_japanese_laughing_jap.jpg
― Noodle Vague, Thursday, 29 November 2007 22:18 (sixteen years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.
― ILX System, Tuesday, 4 December 2007 00:01 (sixteen years ago) link
Just wanted to add my voice to the multitude and add that I feel SWANS' covers were better too.
― Gendou Ikari, Tuesday, 4 December 2007 19:16 (sixteen years ago) link
yea i'm feeling swans, too, and i love sonic youth (at least the 80s albums, as i've mentioned previously). when i started the thread i figured it'd be a good fight but that SY would come out on top. i'm not so sure now, maybe swans have got a shot...
― Mark Clemente, Tuesday, 4 December 2007 19:25 (sixteen years ago) link
Xpost: "But then I would also argue that Savage Republic were better than Sonic Youth or Swans or Live Skull." I, for one, would agree.
SY, somewhat grudgingly, as I don't have much time for their post 80's output. But I have none at all for Gira, when all is said and done.
― Soukesian, Tuesday, 4 December 2007 20:06 (sixteen years ago) link
"Reality Bath" is ok, but it's so badly recorded (double drums never sounded more like double cardboard boxes) that there's no way it's extraordinary. A shame, actually. xpost.
This thread had me pulling out the Cop/Young God era Swans for the first time in a while...made great background music while walking around the upper east side on a wintry day.
― dlp9001, Tuesday, 4 December 2007 20:26 (sixteen years ago) link
Running the likes of Savage Republic (Live Skull, Dust Devils or whatever) against early SY & Swans, I guess you've got fair fight, but they burned out to early to match the breadth/depth the latter acheived over time. I love Savage Republic, too, but I think I only listen to them so much nowadays 'cuz I've played SY to death.
― Bob Standard, Tuesday, 4 December 2007 20:28 (sixteen years ago) link
I was thinking something like that: I could put together a six-song Dustdevils or Rat at Rat R compilation that I like more than any six-song SY/Swans thing, but you're talking 2-4 albums vs. a huge career.
― dlp9001, Tuesday, 4 December 2007 20:33 (sixteen years ago) link
Speaking of SWANS on the Upper East Side, did I ever mention the time I ran into Michael Gira in (preppie apparel enclave) Brooks Brothers?
― Alex in NYC, Tuesday, 4 December 2007 22:38 (sixteen years ago) link
Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.
― ILX System, Wednesday, 5 December 2007 00:01 (sixteen years ago) link
close!
― Mark Clemente, Wednesday, 5 December 2007 01:47 (sixteen years ago) link
i like the story alex. from what i've heard he's quite pleasant in person.
― Mark Clemente, Wednesday, 5 December 2007 01:49 (sixteen years ago) link
Alex, I have been reading your posts for most of the 21st century so far, and this one is one of my favorites. Add another beer to the tally of beers I owe you.
― J0hn D., Wednesday, 5 December 2007 03:26 (sixteen years ago) link
I don't think I've ever heard Nice Strong Arm, but I'm 100% convinced by this argument.
― Nate Carson, Wednesday, 5 December 2007 03:29 (sixteen years ago) link
lurkers win again
― rogermexico., Wednesday, 5 December 2007 15:08 (sixteen years ago) link
I like both bands,but SY only few early LPs and some songs in the rest of the albums,SWNAS are extreme experience and evolution to the cosmos at the end of his career I think,wante d live video shows!
― almudeno, Thursday, 6 November 2008 13:25 (fifteen years ago) link
LOL
― flappy bird, Thursday, 18 May 2017 05:01 (seven years ago) link
― dlp9001, Tuesday, November 27, 2007 8:34 PM (nine years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
https://phatfriend.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/dr_drew_281x211.jpg
― nomar, Thursday, 18 May 2017 06:12 (seven years ago) link
Apparently Gira and Moore didn't speak for years, but they're cool with each other now and Thurston is appearing at a Swans show in London soon. So there's that.
― heaven parker (anagram), Thursday, 18 May 2017 08:34 (seven years ago) link