Swans: Classic or Dud?

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I'm only starting to get familiar with their really early stuff, which seems like it could be just the right medicine when you need it--and also seems like it could literally wrench loose your bowels. I'm very intrigued by the guitar/drums/bass interplay (Does that mean I like beating my head against a cement wall by analogy?), and as of yet I can't decide how to treat Gira's vocals. I'd like to have your opinions on these guys... what about their later stuff, too?

Clarke B., Saturday, 17 March 2001 01:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

Classic of course. I have a live-album "Kill the Child" that catches Swans in full glory, almost religious music in that you expect the sky to open up and turn red, or something like that. Musically impecable, although Gira as a lyricist can be somewhat of a whiner. Later stuff is allright but not as shocking, it's a interesting take on psychedelica.

Omar, Saturday, 17 March 2001 01:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

CLASSIC. Not only classic, but in a class all by itself. What compares to "Children of God/World of Skin" or "Soundtracks for the Blind"? The latter feels more like movies than music. You listen to it in awe a few times when you first get it, straight through. Then, you rarely have to listen to it again. Not because it's not good, just because it was so powerful. Like with a good movie, you don't want to overwatch it.

SWANS albums for repeat listens: "Omniscience" is a great live rockgoth thing, as is "Swans Are Dead". "The Great Annihilator" is one of my all time favorite CDs. The recently released "Various Failures" is fantastic. The earlier industrial Swans stuff I can do without.

Newer Michael Gira stuff like "Body Lovers" and "Angels of Light" continue to dazzle and delight in ways similar but different from Swans. I recommend Body Lovers, at least. It's one continuous album with 9 reference points, so you can fast forward or rewind, but there are no breaks in the music. Perfect for zoning out or on the subway. Gets freaky, of course. Angels of Light were fantastic when I saw them live, unfortunately the LIVE cd they released of the show had pretty poor production. The studio release by Angels of Light called "New Mother" was okay, but some of it, though amazingly produced, just bored me.

Them fellers sure can be oppressive, though. That's why I go through phases. In all actuality, I really don't listen to them too much anymore just because it's so depressing. I'd rather be happy.

, Saturday, 17 March 2001 01:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

Saw them in 1985 supporting the Fall at Heaven. Possibly the most extreme gig I've ever seen. They deserve some respect for going that far.

I have heard few of their albums. Those that I have heard have been among the most negative, miserable, pointless pieces of music that I have ever encountered. No doubt Gira would in some way approve of this reaction. I couldn't care less. Dud.

Dr. C, Saturday, 17 March 2001 01:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

The first two records are all I really need, though it's all good.

Otis Wheeler, Saturday, 17 March 2001 01:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

Pfft...I dunno. I have "The great annihilator" but I must have listened to it twice. I got another album of thiers years ago (cant remember the name of it but it had a long title and there was a rabbit on it)and it was shite. Maybe there earlier stuff is better, I'm not too pushed.

Michael Bourke, Saturday, 17 March 2001 01:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

Classic but ever-evolving -- meaning that the early stuff is no indication at all of how most of the later material is. They have a definite nadir -- _The Burning World_, perhaps unsurprisingly also the only major label album they did -- but the high points are numerous. _Various Failures_ nicely excerpts the one or two good tracks from _Burning World_ plus a slew of stuff from _White Light..._, _Love of Life_ and _Ten Songs From Another World_, which shows the band moving well into the realm of more conventionally dramatic, folk-influenced music -- an oversimplification, but you'll be able to hear the contrast. _Soundtracks for the Blind_ was the last studio album and is worth it as both a kind of career overview in terms of sonic approach and for the bemusing fact that "The Helpless Child" essentially invents Godspeed You Black Emperor. ;-) Etc. etc. -- my reviews at the AMG go into all this if you'd like to find out more.

Ned Raggett, Saturday, 17 March 2001 01:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

Don't listen to the naysayers. Swans can't be judged by one or two albums, anyway, and it sounds like the people who hate them are only familiar with about that much. Perhaps their earlier, more abrasive work is considered "classic" by some, but it's my absolute least favorite. You never hear people saying, "I got Beatles' "Rubber Soul" and it's the gayest piece of crap I ever heard" and effectively dismissing all beatles music, right? Later Swans material is some of the most intricate and best-produced music there is. It's on the oppressive/ depressive vibe, but nowhere near the earlier "Holy Money" kind of stuff. It's more melancholy-- and there's plenty of melancholy bands out there. You choose to listen to it when it suits you. I'd suggest "Children of God/World of Skin" as your very next Swans purchase. The variation in that album from the first song to the second song, alone, will probably suprise you. But, there's also a dramatic difference from disc one to disc two. Disc one is a little more rocking and disc two is a little more spiritual, almost gospel sounding. "Breathing Water" is one of the creepiest, beautiful songs there is. Must be heard to be believed.

, Sunday, 18 March 2001 01:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

Ever felt that the music you always hear is too full of warmth, liveliness, humor, rocking and melody ? Well, the Swans get rid of all that useless baggage, which I'm sure is a relief to some people. A monster dud.

The Burning World had a few, uh, songs on it. Bet their cult thinks it's a sell-out.

Patrick, Sunday, 18 March 2001 01:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

Ahem. I don't consider _Burning World_ a sellout, just dull -- a far different thing, if only because sellouts should at least theoretically show *some* sort of commercial appeal. The fact that your sweeping statement regarding the band's work in general appears to be based on a listen of only the stuff they recorded up through 1986 or so as opposed to perhaps listening to anything from _White Light..._ onward I'll let pass without mentioning.

Ned Raggett, Sunday, 18 March 2001 01:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

True, Ned, I haven't heard anything from them since The Burning World (1989, right ?) so I grant that they might have improved since then. I don't have much hope for Michael Gira's sense of humor, but maybe they found a way out of the doom-and-gloom ?

Patrick, Sunday, 18 March 2001 01:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

classic for the relentless grind of _body to body job to job_. early swans is some of the most cathartic music ever. _children of god_ is great if you're in the mood, ridiculous if you're not. jarboe was an unfortunate addition to the band. i actually liked _burning world_, though i couldn't imagine listening now. i have less interest in what i've heard of the 90s stuff.

sundar subramanian, Sunday, 18 March 2001 01:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

Michael Gira is fucking hilarious. Taken past a certain point, humorlessness becomes its antithesis. The 80's needed him just to counteract the 'humor' of They Might Be Giants.

Otis Wheeler, Monday, 19 March 2001 01:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

Actually, Gira is pretty humorous and has a sense of humor, too. At least, live he does. I think the music is supposed to be dark and humorless. You know, like, happy bands don't usually write death songs? It's the same kinda thing. Gira gets points for making the starkest, most oppressive music I've ever heard and making it still sound "pretty". If you don't think Swans sound pretty, it's because you're still judging them by their earliest work, which, in my opinion, hasn't aged well, but is still the best industrial music I've heard (comparing only to the little I know: Skinny Puppy, NIN, Ministry, Einsterzende Neubauten, Front 242... I hate industrial music with a passion).

But, it is funny that humorless music can be "hilarious" since "humorous" music can really piss me off- like Ween for instance. Sometimes they're annoying as hell.

, Monday, 19 March 2001 01:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

I doubt that They Might Be Giants were so pervasive in the 80s that they necessited a reaction all on their own. Maybe Mr Mister did. Actually, since the Swans were around before TMBG, maybe TMBG *was* the counteraction. But yeah, bands that set out to be humorous at all times are as much of an annoyance as the ones who are about being dark and depressed at all times. Whether it's laughs or anger or sadness, I kinda prefer when they're just sorta part of the package, rather than something entire genres are based on.

Patrick, Monday, 19 March 2001 01:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

Forgive me for wandering in from the Killing Joke debate, but SWANS are local legends around my part of the woods, so I couldn't stop m'self from chiming in. Actually, I'm not here to praise nor damn Gira's gang, but rather suggest checking out a couple of bands largely spawned by Swans' influece, Brooklyn's late-lamented COP SHOOT COP and Tod Ashley's Firewater.

alex, Thursday, 22 March 2001 01:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

seven months pass...
cop shoot cop sounded like gary numan doing springsteen numbers

bob snoom, Tuesday, 6 November 2001 01:00 (fifteen years ago) Permalink

one year passes...
saw gira live in london last nite. i understand now. crushes like churches

zemko (bob), Wednesday, 12 March 2003 11:50 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

thought this might have been revived.

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 12 March 2003 13:14 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

no one else went? andrew l?

zemko (bob), Wednesday, 12 March 2003 17:38 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

yeah he told me at the last FAP that he was.

(I didn't as I'm working late for this stupid presentation tomorrow therefore I am jealous: did gira scream the word 'mother' at any point during the gig?)

Julio Desouza (jdesouza), Wednesday, 12 March 2003 17:42 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

"Grindin" is like a vintage Swans song, not just sonically (drums like an endless row of scrap-metal monoliths collapsing on a burnt and barren wasteland) but thematically. Both Clipse and Swans find social reality at the intersection of sex, money, and power. They view everything else as pretty fluff, designed to obscure the harsh truth.

The difference is, Gira and Co. sound traumatized by this discovery, whereas Malice and Pusha T sound like they're doing a gleeful dance.

EC, Wednesday, 12 March 2003 18:03 (thirteen years ago) Permalink

one year passes...
Classic. Most of what's been mentioned is their refined stuff.

Being a masocist I especially love the brutal Cop/Holy Money
period - most people would find this stuff horrible, but given
a bit more listening one may be able to experience this amazing
feeling of ? - too hard to describe, but it compliments such
painful things like exercise, washing dishes etc.

Anyone heard the live disc 'Public Castration is a Good Idea'?
This out-heavies anything I've ever heard...

KF ., Tuesday, 8 February 2005 12:28 (eleven years ago) Permalink

I can't believe I didn't say anything on this thread...surely there must be another one somewhere on the board, because I vaguely remember saying that I'm a White Light From the Mouth of Infinity man, but that I still love the grind of the early stuff, and even the ultrapolished The Burning World. I really have to be in the mood to get into the early early early stuff though.

Sean Carruthers (SeanC), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 17:00 (eleven years ago) Permalink

I own the double disc Cop/Young God/Greed/Holy Money and the live albums Public Castration Is A Good Idea and Feel Good Now. I like all of 'em, especially PCIAGI, which really needs to be played as loud as your stereo will possibly go. One of my favorite Godflesh songs, "Love, Hate (Slugbaiting)" is like this album condensed down to ten minutes in an attempt to climb the charts. That, too, should be played at absurd volume. I used to own Soundtracks For The Blind and didn't like it that much - it seemed like capitulation to me. Never heard anything from the in-between years.

pdf (Phil Freeman), Tuesday, 8 February 2005 17:21 (eleven years ago) Permalink

one year passes...
Classic. But you must be in the mood for some of their work.

J.H. Malerman (xada_hgla), Wednesday, 20 September 2006 19:49 (ten years ago) Permalink

Completely classic. Anyone who likes music of ANY kind could find something to like in their broad, vast array of sounds and moods. One of my top three groups ever, in every incarnation. And I started at BURNING WORLD, working backward and forward and deep into all the solo stuff - it can be done!

Gira's book THE CONSUMER also so, so recommended.

matt the queeg (veal), Wednesday, 20 September 2006 21:55 (ten years ago) Permalink

If Swans lyric sheets make me roffle, am I a sick fuck?

Marmot (marmotwolof), Wednesday, 20 September 2006 21:59 (ten years ago) Permalink

No, especially if you're laughing at the story that came on the insert to Cop.

Utterly, timelessly CLASSIC.

sleeve version 2.0 (sleeve testing), Wednesday, 20 September 2006 22:22 (ten years ago) Permalink

I just have Cop on the double disc comp, no story - is that online somewhere?

I just mean all the terse little statements of complete hopelessness in the lyrics. I get about three lines in and completely lose my shit.

Marmot (marmotwolof), Wednesday, 20 September 2006 22:27 (ten years ago) Permalink

If Swans lyric sheets make me roffle, am I a sick fuck?

No, it means you're the right audience.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Wednesday, 20 September 2006 22:49 (ten years ago) Permalink

You can't get much more hopeless than "god damn the sun."

Butt Dickass (Dick Butkus), Wednesday, 20 September 2006 22:53 (ten years ago) Permalink

THE SEX IN YOUR SOUL WILL DAMN YOU TO HELL

latebloomer scrabbly dabbly doo (skawreeng) (latebloomer), Wednesday, 20 September 2006 22:55 (ten years ago) Permalink

Random thoughts:
Gira and Jarboe are 2 of the musicians I could easily imagine being psycho killers.

When I saw Angels of Light play Tonic, he drank a full pint of whiskey in a glass filled from behind the bar and didn't seem in the least bit drunk. After the show, he went and got a refill and mingled like he was at an art opening or something.

His writing is pretty disturbing.

Jarboe seems to have severe mental problems. Oh yeah, and so does Gira.

Butt Dickass (Dick Butkus), Wednesday, 20 September 2006 22:59 (ten years ago) Permalink

Look, you people don't understand. I saw Jarboe at Bumbershoot a few weeks ago. She was fucking fantastic. In the daytime even. She came out into the audience and sang to a few audience members personally one at a time, including me. I was so embarassed to realize everyone was looking at me. She held her hand out and I held her hand. Then her voice got louder and she looked into my eyes and sang louder and I was afraid. I was really afraid in that moment.

-- Ficky Stingers (bimble87...), Sunday 1:33 AM. (Bimble...) (later) (link)

best/scariest/best thing ever.
Weird that two completely different Swans C or D threads just got revived a few days apart. Here's the other:
Classic or Dud: Swans

Marmot (marmotwolof), Wednesday, 20 September 2006 23:25 (ten years ago) Permalink

(Haha ok, they were revived by the same guy)

Marmot (marmotwolof), Wednesday, 20 September 2006 23:27 (ten years ago) Permalink

five months pass...
I've pulled out my vinyl copy of Greed. I haven't heard it in ages. But I remember Holy Money being better and that is going to be played next.

Bimble, Sunday, 18 March 2007 02:05 (nine years ago) Permalink

holy money is maybe better but the song 'greed' is perhaps the best thing swans ever did.

stirmonster, Sunday, 18 March 2007 03:29 (nine years ago) Permalink

I CUT OFF MY RIGHT HAND...AND STAND IN YOUR SHADOW!...I CRAWL ALL OVER MYSELF AND STAND IN YOUR SHADOW!...

Such uplifting music, hah!

I was remembering that Holy Money was the first record I ever bought of the Swans. I bought it on a sheer whim for a few bucks, used. The first time I heard it I was sure I'd wasted my money. It was like "what is this crap?" But gradually I started to understand it. I didn't go nuts over them until Children of God, though.

Bimble, Sunday, 18 March 2007 04:33 (nine years ago) Permalink

two months pass...

OK...Happy Ned...Did this already...but isn't exactly what I was looking for anyway...

Screw this....

I'm gonna give up on the Swans...

Aja, Monday, 28 May 2007 05:55 (nine years ago) Permalink

Filth is one of my all-time favorite albums. I'd recommend that one, but it may not be the best convince-me-otherwise album.

Ivan, Monday, 28 May 2007 06:42 (nine years ago) Permalink

Its Aja!

Trayce, Monday, 28 May 2007 06:42 (nine years ago) Permalink

Yeah, hi....

I find it funny that my thread was locked so soon...

Anyway, I was bored and wanted to see what was up in these parts...I really should be getting to sleep though...

Aja, Monday, 28 May 2007 06:45 (nine years ago) Permalink

I think it's funny that you say "screw this" because Swans have a song called A Screw don't they? Heheh.

Bimble, Monday, 28 May 2007 07:04 (nine years ago) Permalink

Also there is some really fantastic Swans stuff on You Tube. But in all honesty, Swans are not a band I would likely try to argue with someone into liking the way I would, say, Led Zeppelin or even the Fall. I find it perfectly understandable that some folks will never get Swans.

Bimble, Monday, 28 May 2007 07:08 (nine years ago) Permalink

I think it's funny that you say "screw this" because Swans have a song called A Screw don't they? Heheh.

-- Bimble, Monday, May 28, 2007 7:04 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

They do? Gosh...is it any good? Or is it really slow and weird...

Aja, Monday, 28 May 2007 07:11 (nine years ago) Permalink

Well there are two different versions I found.

This one is a more beefed up version of the album version with horns and a heavy industrial beat:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqiEmNaG5QY

This one is a live performance, and more bare-bones, truer to their early material and I prefer it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHES9YAGGkU

Bimble, Monday, 28 May 2007 07:16 (nine years ago) Permalink

Of course this is before they became a lot more listenable, pretty and mellow.

Bimble, Monday, 28 May 2007 07:18 (nine years ago) Permalink

Ok................

Interesting. I'll leave it at that.

Aja, Monday, 28 May 2007 07:19 (nine years ago) Permalink

I got into the first couple of albums for a while, saw them live, then gradually decided that life was just too short for Gira's schtick. Haven't listened to them for ten years.

I have a promo copy of 'Cop' which was issued to Radio Forth, our local top forty station, a thought that makes me laugh every time I flick past it on the stack.

Soukesian, Monday, 28 May 2007 07:23 (nine years ago) Permalink

Aja, you can say you hate it, I don't care! It's ugly music. Soukesian, I think that's part of their appeal that they make you laugh in the end.

Here's something called "Love of Life" from later on when they'd mellowed out more:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=girFIccfmBU

Bimble, Monday, 28 May 2007 07:25 (nine years ago) Permalink

Fuckin goths

President Evil, Monday, 28 May 2007 07:40 (nine years ago) Permalink

I took about a 15 year break from them, but lately have been filling in what happened after 1990, and I'm impressed at how consistent they've been, and it's all hitting me with a renewed force. Yeah, they're as funny ha-ha as they are funny strange, but I find that I can't doubt what Gira was reaching for. And when they hit, wow, beat and message and emotion come together equally. And the beauty really does start poking through the ugliness.

bendy, Monday, 28 May 2007 07:57 (nine years ago) Permalink

Having said that I'm planning to buy some of their shit pretty soon. BUT. They are goths.

President Evil, Monday, 28 May 2007 07:59 (nine years ago) Permalink

Goths perhaps, but of a different stripe. I don't think black clothes are really necessary with them or their fans.

Bimble, Monday, 28 May 2007 10:35 (nine years ago) Permalink

Gosh...is it any good? Or is it really slow and weird...]

or? OR? OR?!?!

GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ, Monday, 28 May 2007 20:10 (nine years ago) Permalink

have been filling in what happened after 1990

Some of their best and most rewarding work, IMO. I wish somebody would reissue "Die Tur Ist Zu" because I still haven't heard it. Also check out those Gira and Jarboe solo records that Alternative Tentacles did.

sleeve, Monday, 28 May 2007 20:38 (nine years ago) Permalink

part of their appeal that they make you laugh in the end

Yeah, I don't see this happening at all.

Tim Ellison, Monday, 28 May 2007 20:38 (nine years ago) Permalink

I believe this was the second ever thread I contributed to, back in the day (when the earth was young and the seas were hot and the skies were filled with pteradactyles).

SWANS were untouchably brilliant and will always remain so. But GOTHS they are not. Not in the slightest. And I know two ex-Swans who would happily bludgeon anyone who dared refer to them as such.

Alex in NYC, Monday, 28 May 2007 20:40 (nine years ago) Permalink

i always thought swans were funny. and they are one of my favorite bands. in my top four anyway. when i first got internet in 1999 i joined a swans list and i confessed that i always thought that the song failure was really funny. i expected to get yelled at. but nobody yelled. and jarboe agreed that lots of swans had very dry humor too it, but that a lot of people didn't see it. or didn't want to see it. and if you ever went to a swans show you would see these deadly serious fans. they were the ones who loked like the memebers of controlled bleeding. they weren't in it for the funny.

scott seward, Monday, 28 May 2007 20:43 (nine years ago) Permalink

Were Live Skull goths?

x-post

Tim Ellison, Monday, 28 May 2007 20:44 (nine years ago) Permalink

LOTS of goths love swans though. that's why the two get connected. and goths LOVE world of skin and angels of light and jarboe too.

scott seward, Monday, 28 May 2007 20:44 (nine years ago) Permalink

no, live skull were not goths.

scott seward, Monday, 28 May 2007 20:44 (nine years ago) Permalink

or didn't want to see it.

or actually didn't think it was funny maybe - you have to allow for that.

Tim Ellison, Monday, 28 May 2007 20:45 (nine years ago) Permalink

and they were a HUGE influence on goth bands. just as they were on metal bands and all kinds of bands. i like to call swans "traditional folk music".

scott seward, Monday, 28 May 2007 20:46 (nine years ago) Permalink

yeah, i mean, you might think that public castration is a good idea is a funny album title or you might just think that public castration is a good idea. too each his own.

scott seward, Monday, 28 May 2007 20:48 (nine years ago) Permalink

Swans from Circus Mort to Cop is absolutely classic. It's sad the CD versions of Filth and the eponymous EP were remastered so badly, but they're still worth getting.

libcrypt, Monday, 28 May 2007 20:58 (nine years ago) Permalink

could you elaborate a bit? Not that I plan on replacing my vinyl, but I'm curious as to what went wrong. Is this also true of the Cop and Children Of God remasters?

sleeve, Monday, 28 May 2007 21:03 (nine years ago) Permalink

Scott's right, it's because lots of goths like Swans that they get tagged that way.

Bimble, Monday, 28 May 2007 21:06 (nine years ago) Permalink

The remasters are cleaned up with reverb added and EQ bent toward the ends. If you've heard original Teenage Jesus or Mars vinyl and compared it to the CDs of the same, it's a similar effect, although not quite as reverb-chamber-in-hell as it is on the TJ remasters.

libcrypt, Monday, 28 May 2007 21:07 (nine years ago) Permalink

I don't know whether the Cop remaster has a similar issue, since I don't have it, and I'm not sure whether I have a remastered or original Children of God.

libcrypt, Monday, 28 May 2007 21:09 (nine years ago) Permalink

Thanks. That TJ&TJ remaster gets my vote for "worst job ever", so I'll steer clear of the Filth CD.

sleeve, Monday, 28 May 2007 21:16 (nine years ago) Permalink

which version of filth is supposed to have this problem? the single cd jewelcase one from a long time ago or the somewhat more recent 2cd reissue?

GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ, Monday, 28 May 2007 21:26 (nine years ago) Permalink

Here's 25 seconds of a track from the Filth/body to body, job to job double CD:

http://rapidshare.com/files/33942016/filth_reissue_-_06_-_Right_Wrong__25_second_clip_.mp3.html

hope this helps?

StanM, Monday, 28 May 2007 21:27 (nine years ago) Permalink

Live Skull were VERY decidedly NOT goths. Hurrumph!

Alex in NYC, Monday, 28 May 2007 21:35 (nine years ago) Permalink

I have the Zensor vinyl version of 'Filth' - always thought it was meant to sound, well, filthy. What would/does cleaning it up reveal - the melodies?

Soukesian, Monday, 28 May 2007 21:40 (nine years ago) Permalink

Alex, they had a heavy goth streak

just because it's really really good doesn't mean it's not goth man

J0hn D., Monday, 28 May 2007 21:49 (nine years ago) Permalink

which version of filth is supposed to have this problem?

My CD from around 1990 is poorly-mastered. I dunno about any later versions.

libcrypt, Monday, 28 May 2007 22:03 (nine years ago) Permalink

Would it really be SO bad if your favorite band turned around and said "Yeah, actually, we were always Goths. At the end of the night, it was always all about getting with those Siouxsie clones. So kill us. The records are still OK though? Aren't they? Aren't they?"

Soukesian, Monday, 28 May 2007 22:10 (nine years ago) Permalink

Alex, they had a heavy goth streak

Live Skull? No they fucking didn't.

Look, I LOVE a lot of unapologetically Goth bands -- from Alien Sex Fiend through Theatre of Hate through the Mission through Fields of the Nephilim -- but the fact remains that Live Skull and SWANS simply WERE NOT members of that flock.

Alex in NYC, Monday, 28 May 2007 22:13 (nine years ago) Permalink

Well, at the time, goths sure as hell wanted nothing to do with Swans. This is true. It'd be more apt to call the Misfits goth, 'cause they were loved by every goth in (my) town.

libcrypt, Monday, 28 May 2007 22:18 (nine years ago) Permalink

ANYWAY.

i confessed that i always thought that the song failure was really funny.

One of my favorite Swans moments ever -- I'm DJing at KUCI during my grad school years and someone calls me up during finals week or just thereafter. Turns out it's another grad on campus, like me a TA. He goes, "I've been looking at all these student papers and I have a request -- can you play the Swans' "Failure" for them?" And so I did, and I would have also bought him a drink if I could.

Ned Raggett, Monday, 28 May 2007 22:23 (nine years ago) Permalink

As soon as Jarboe joined Swans (the Time Is Money 12") it became fair to call them goth. If you saw them during the Jarboe period you know that was a proper goth throwdown.

Snuffer counts as goth. However, the only evidence I can offer for this proposition is "it sure seemed goth to me at the time, and that is in fact why I bought it."

J0hn D., Monday, 28 May 2007 22:59 (nine years ago) Permalink

it became fair to call them goth

If by "fair" you mean "abjectly wrong," then yes.

Alex in NYC, Monday, 28 May 2007 23:07 (nine years ago) Permalink

ilm must've wandered into a wormhole, this is like 2005 all over again

Edward III, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 00:18 (nine years ago) Permalink

Did anyone else there at the time refer to Swans as "tribal"? Swans, Savage Repubic, (new EP is good BTW), Test Dept, anything with a bunch of blunt percussion we called tribal, tribal industrial. In Pittsburgh, circa 86-89.

bendy, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 00:58 (nine years ago) Permalink

Alex I'm older than you, don't make me come over there

J0hn D., Tuesday, 29 May 2007 00:59 (nine years ago) Permalink

Or to be more exact: circa 1985 on the west coast, there was not a goth that lived and breathed who didn't love or at least respect Swans. Their audience was largely goth (still "death rock" in some quarters) people, and industrial lovers who were more or less goths without so much makeup, and some punks. Your crowd defines you, to some extent. Certainly Swans are nothing like Fields of the Nephilim. But their lyrical themes, their relentless darkness, and THAT WOMAN WITH THE GOTH-ASS MAKEUP YOWLING ABOUT THE YUM-YAB KILLERS OR WHATEVER makes them goth whether one likes it or not.

J0hn D., Tuesday, 29 May 2007 01:02 (nine years ago) Permalink

Ah, west coast.

dlp9001, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 01:24 (nine years ago) Permalink

Alex I'm older than you, don't make me come over there

You're older than 39? Bring it on, old man.

Alex in NYC, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 02:27 (nine years ago) Permalink

Oh, god...old men fighting about what is goth...

OH!! Will you two wear black lipstick and long black trench coats???? Oow. That would be interesting....

Aja, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 02:52 (nine years ago) Permalink

guys I totally support the sudden surge of goths on ILX, keep it up 2007

Curt1s Stephens, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 02:56 (nine years ago) Permalink

Aja, that's just a FAP invitation.

libcrypt, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 02:57 (nine years ago) Permalink

Um...I feel stupid...what is FAP?...I know I learned this like 2 years ago, but I don't remember what it means....

*Blushes*

Aja, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 03:03 (nine years ago) Permalink

"Fancy A Pint" but I don't think the pints are required, it's just a generic term for irl meetings of ILXors.

Curt1s Stephens, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 03:05 (nine years ago) Permalink

Ok. Now I remember.

Yes, pints would be appropriate I guess. But I want to watch too...Can I have a Roy Rodgers?

Aja, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 03:06 (nine years ago) Permalink

*chuckling trying to imagine Alex in black lipstick*

Bimble, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 03:07 (nine years ago) Permalink

HAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Alex in black lipstick and with EYELINER!

Aja, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 03:08 (nine years ago) Permalink

guys I feel like this is an appropriate time to mention that "fap" has never meant anything to me other than the sound of masturbation

bernard snowy, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 03:16 (nine years ago) Permalink

Well I've always felt the appeal of the term is that it does also call to mind that meaning. It's a double entendre, and I'm sure many jokes have already been made about it here.

Bimble, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 03:22 (nine years ago) Permalink

yeah

it was really weird and off-putting for me at first, though, like moving to some foreign land where everyone referred to cars as "cunts" and thought nothing of it

bernard snowy, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 03:32 (nine years ago) Permalink

WAHT IS THE HEN FLAP AND WHY DO PEOPLE KEEP ASKING FOR IT???

libcrypt, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 03:52 (nine years ago) Permalink

Wait..."Hen Fap" I've heard that before. What does it mean?

Bimble, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 04:17 (nine years ago) Permalink

It's the name of the server ILX runs on. Nothing more. Now go about yr bidness, citizen.

libcrypt, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 04:18 (nine years ago) Permalink

Hahah! I see! The things you learn!

Bimble, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 04:47 (nine years ago) Permalink

LOL @ Ned's story. Once I requested "Raping A Slave" on my hometown college station because it took me forever to find that EP, and after the DJ played it he said "Well, my girlfriend has called me to demand that I never play that song again".

sleeve, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 15:37 (nine years ago) Permalink

I have so much to say on the topic that it's tempting to say nothing.

as a college dj I did a 3 hour swans show. at one point some guy called up and said "I'm going to come up there and kill you" and then started laughing hysterically. so I got on the mic and dedicated "coward" to him. he didn't call back (or show up, obv).

around '99 gira was selling the master tapes to the labor e.p. on his website. wonder if that's why it hasn't been remastered.

Edward III, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 16:17 (nine years ago) Permalink

I am still missing one Swans live album in particular -- Anonymous Bodies in an Empty Room. So if anyone has a full burn of it around...

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 16:18 (nine years ago) Permalink

hold on

StanM, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 16:44 (nine years ago) Permalink

The hotmail address ILX tried doesn't work, I tried the k**i.*rg one I remembered, is that one ok?

StanM, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 17:10 (nine years ago) Permalink

Yup.

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 29 May 2007 17:11 (nine years ago) Permalink

the new angels of light is fucking awesome by the way

J0hn D., Tuesday, 29 May 2007 17:25 (nine years ago) Permalink

three months pass...

I love SWANS.

Alex in NYC, Friday, 7 September 2007 23:39 (nine years ago) Permalink

Alex in NYC OTM.

I refuse to be forced to choose between any of their sounds/periods (early! cathartic! melodic! apocalyptic!) though. They all rule in their own way.

StanM, Saturday, 8 September 2007 00:17 (nine years ago) Permalink

Cheers, Alex! I was just thinking of Swans today while walking around outside on my lunch break, funnily enough. I started singing that lyric "Nothing inside you is real" from "You're Not Real, Girl". It was the only thing that kindof shook me out of a bad mood, today.

Bimble, Saturday, 8 September 2007 01:37 (nine years ago) Permalink

A few months ago at work, I was immersed in "Holy Money" when my coworker appeared at the door of my cube, grinning. I removed my headphones, and she said, "Didn't you hear the fire alarm? Didn't you leave the building?"

Immolated in a sterile grey cubical, while the coworkers wander off... Would have been a Giraesque way to go.

bendy, Saturday, 8 September 2007 10:58 (nine years ago) Permalink

COP!

I know, right?, Saturday, 8 September 2007 11:32 (nine years ago) Permalink

The sex in your soul will damn you to hell

Bimble, Monday, 17 September 2007 08:04 (nine years ago) Permalink

Feel Good Now version of "Sex God Sex" is epic.

Ivan, Monday, 17 September 2007 08:07 (nine years ago) Permalink

Feel Good Now version of "Sex God Sex" is epic.

Noodle Vague, Monday, 17 September 2007 08:21 (nine years ago) Permalink

Just to be clear again, Swans were not Goths. Ever.

Alex in NYC, Monday, 17 September 2007 15:54 (nine years ago) Permalink

Classic. Personally their one of the most important bands in regards to what I’m interested in. Children of God and Filth should be in everyones collections.

Mr. Goodman, Monday, 17 September 2007 16:46 (nine years ago) Permalink

I'll say it again...

I LOVE SWANS

Alex in NYC, Tuesday, 18 September 2007 00:33 (nine years ago) Permalink

Just to be clear again, Swans were not Goths. Ever.

While this is technically true, I never knew an 80s goth who didn't have much love for Swans, and Jarboe brought the goth flavor to the stage throughout The Great Annihilator tour. They certainly transcend the genre, but the overlap is pretty undeniable.

J0hn D., Tuesday, 18 September 2007 02:35 (nine years ago) Permalink

Swans are less goth than Killing Joke, but like Killing Joke, they're still only a few steps away from goth proper.

Curt1s Stephens, Tuesday, 18 September 2007 03:04 (nine years ago) Permalink

the first two world of skin albums were totally goth. in a good way. i think i talked about the goth/swans thing on some thread. maybe this one. swans/gira still one of the few acts where i love/loved EVERYTHING they/he did. can't say that about too many people. jarboe on her own can be hit or miss (depending on who she is collaborating with), but she's put out some amazing post-swans stuff too.

scott seward, Tuesday, 18 September 2007 03:11 (nine years ago) Permalink

Scott, have you heard the Blackmouth disc that's her and two of the guys from Trust/Obey? V. good, been a while since I've listened -- might dig it out here tonight!

Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 18 September 2007 03:14 (nine years ago) Permalink

nope, never heard it. she has lots of stuff i haven't heard. i still want to get her mystery of faith swans/skin comp too. and i'm curious about her men album. had blixa on it and alan from low doing a song with her. i really liked her anhedoniac album. crazy stuff. the early stuff i wasn't that big on. the 13 masks album and the beautiful people ltd. album. kinda patchy.

scott seward, Tuesday, 18 September 2007 03:31 (nine years ago) Permalink

i liked the neurosis/jarboe album too. i thought that was really cool.

scott seward, Tuesday, 18 September 2007 03:32 (nine years ago) Permalink

my love is for the Sacrificial Cake album that Alternative Tentacles put out. Anhedonic is cool too, only listened to it once so far. I saw her in a church on this tour:

MOBILIZATION TOUR 2006 (Blixa Bargeld, Jarboe, Savage Republic)

She had a piano player and another guitarist, played some Swans songs even!

also she has great early cassette noise stuff like on the first Dry Lungs comp.

sleeve, Tuesday, 18 September 2007 04:15 (nine years ago) Permalink

I think it's hilarious the way Alex always feels the need to play Goth Police around here. It's even more hilarious because honestly I don't care if EVERY band is goth, Swans included! But you know, to each his own.

I met a guy last week at my work who had a Neurosis/Jarboe shirt on. Ah, the benefits of no dress code.

Bimble, Tuesday, 18 September 2007 04:46 (nine years ago) Permalink

While this is technically true, I never knew an 80s goth who didn't have much love for Swans

I knew a bona fide Goth that liked Chris DeBurgh --- does that make Mr."Lady In Red" a goth too, then?

Alex in NYC, Tuesday, 18 September 2007 12:36 (nine years ago) Permalink

you knew one bona fide goth who liked Chris DeBurgh

you & I both went to Swans shows and saw the places packed out to the walls with goths

in your heart you know I'm right!

J0hn D., Tuesday, 18 September 2007 13:18 (nine years ago) Permalink

"I knew a bona fide Goth that liked Chris DeBurgh --- does that make Mr."Lady In Red" a goth too, then?"


It was late at night on the open road, speeding like a man on the run
A lifetime spent preparing for the journey.
He is closer now and the search is on, reading from a map in the mind:
Yes there's that ragged hill and there's a boat on the river.

And when the rain came down, he heard a wild dog howl
There were voices in the night
(Don't do it!)
Voices out of sight
(Dont't do it!)
Too many men have failed before, whatever you do;

Don't pay the ferryman!
Don't even fix a price!
Don't pay the ferryman
Until he gets you to the other side.

In the rolling mist, then he gets on board, now there'll be no turning back
Beware that hooded old man at the rudder.
And then the lightning flashed and the thunder roared,
and people calling out his name,
And dancing bones that jabbered-and-a-moaned on the water.

And then the ferryman said "There is trouble ahead,
So you must pay me now."
(Don't do it!)
"You must pay me now."
(Don't do it!)
And still that voice came from beyond, whatever you do;

Don't pay the ferryman!
Don't even fix a price!
Don't pay the ferryman
Until he gets you to the other side.

scott seward, Tuesday, 18 September 2007 13:24 (nine years ago) Permalink

J0hn D., Tuesday, 18 September 2007 13:28 (nine years ago) Permalink

what happened to mine image, BB code is totally non-goth

http://swans.pair.com/GALLERY/87/1987jarboe2.html

J0hn D., Tuesday, 18 September 2007 13:29 (nine years ago) Permalink

i joined jarboe's swans e-mail list in 1999 and most of the people on it were definitely more on the industrial side of things than the goth side. i have to say, they were almost all very brainy folks who listened to all kinds of music. but definitely HUGE love for the whole current 93/coil/NWW world on there. and also swans-like crescendo-rock like mogwai and godspeed and the like. and godflesh. what you would expect, i guess. probably lots of goth stuff too. i can't remember. beauty = darkness, etc. i have no problem with swans being goth-friendly or goth-identified. call them whatever you like. i prefer the term "freak folk" myself.

scott seward, Tuesday, 18 September 2007 13:37 (nine years ago) Permalink

The second I hit "submit response," I *JUST KNEW* someone was going to cite "Don't Pay The Ferryman." CHRIS DEBURGH IS A GOTH, OKAY, I ADMIT IT!

I also knew a kid in college who was a total hardcore punk, but also loved Rush -- i.e. DOES THIS MAKE RUSH A HARDCORE PUNK BAND???

The answer: Fuck no.

Look, yes -- Swans' audiences were crawling with Goths, certainly. Does that make the band goth? Not necessarily. I'll admit that Jarboe added an element to the proceedings that leant uncomfortably towards that crowd, but Michael Gira is no goth -- never was, never will be.

At the end of the day, I suppose it really depends on one's definition of "Goth." As far as I'm concerned, wearing black and having a less than cheeful sensibility shouldn't *AUTOMATICALLY* render one a "goth."

Alex in NYC, Tuesday, 18 September 2007 14:25 (nine years ago) Permalink

Michael Gira is no goth

Well, of course I agree with this; as I say, I think they transcend the label, which carries all kinds of only-and-exclusively-about-itself connotations. But in the goth family tree, they're a near branch - nearer than the Gun Club, say, but a little further out than the Fields of the Nephilim. The old saying about knowing a man by the company he keeps applies. If we wanted to posit a Non-Silly Goth category that would help, but really all we'd be doing is repeating the old saw about 90% of everything being crap. I mean: emo sucks, right? But Rites of Spring didn't suck at all, even though they're emo as fuck.

J0hn D., Tuesday, 18 September 2007 14:34 (nine years ago) Permalink

Fair enough.

Alex in NYC, Tuesday, 18 September 2007 14:49 (nine years ago) Permalink

i think for almost anything that was at one time labelled "industrial" you've got a goth fanbase of some size. skinny puppy, neubaten, etc.

scott seward, Tuesday, 18 September 2007 15:01 (nine years ago) Permalink

crescendo-rock

Ha ha! Is Southern Gothic goth? That one's always confused me.

Matt #2, Tuesday, 18 September 2007 15:29 (nine years ago) Permalink

I wonder if anyone remembers "Public Castration Is A Good Idea", another live (and double) album like "Feel Good Now". Strangely I don't remember anything about it at all, except that it had material from the first part of their career. I do remember that the sleeve was gray at its base with yellow and silver put in or something like that. Damn I wish I had that LP now!

I saw someone recently somewhere on the net who said they couldn't concentrate on Cop if they tried or some paraphrased thing like that, and I totally agreed. Cop is hard to bear, even though I love everything else they've done. Except I admit the first EP is a totally different thing and rather dull, as it happens.

Bimble, Saturday, 29 September 2007 07:42 (nine years ago) Permalink

yep - just listened to it about a month ago too

StanM, Saturday, 29 September 2007 07:46 (nine years ago) Permalink

Fuck goddamnit yeah
HOW I MISS THE VINYL!
I MIGHT CRY!

Bimble, Saturday, 29 September 2007 07:47 (nine years ago) Permalink

( review by Mr. Ned)

StanM, Saturday, 29 September 2007 07:48 (nine years ago) Permalink

Who doesn't like Cop?!?!?!?

I know, right?, Saturday, 29 September 2007 11:52 (nine years ago) Permalink

Public Castration... is now quite rare (as are -- sadly -- many albums in their catalog).

Alex in NYC, Saturday, 29 September 2007 12:06 (nine years ago) Permalink

...but, I should point out, it can be had it its unwieldly entiretly (sonically, at least) via iTunes.

Alex in NYC, Monday, 1 October 2007 12:41 (nine years ago) Permalink

entirety

Alex in NYC, Monday, 1 October 2007 12:41 (nine years ago) Permalink

Does anybody get made very very sleepy by early Swans (which is so beautiful I could never force myself to listen to the later stuff, I only have an imagined version in my head but some things can't be corrupted). Seriously, Cop is really relaxing, the louder the better, obv.

I know, right?, Monday, 1 October 2007 18:56 (nine years ago) Permalink

Haven't listened to it for years, but, yes, I can see what you mean. Works like massage.

Soukesian, Monday, 1 October 2007 19:02 (nine years ago) Permalink

I fell asleep at a bus stop once with it on my headphones. I had to walk three hours in the dark to get home (I got cold hitching) with a bag.

I know, right?, Monday, 1 October 2007 19:10 (nine years ago) Permalink

four months pass...

probably of interest:

http://www.theomegaorder.com/s.nl/it.A/id.18990/.f

J0hn D., Friday, 15 February 2008 20:20 (eight years ago) Permalink

Nice.

Yesterday a copy of Anonymous Bodies sold on eBay for $160...

Ned Raggett, Friday, 15 February 2008 20:23 (eight years ago) Permalink

I couldn't really get in to the J2 album. Not like I got into the Neurosis/Jarboe album. I think I was hoping for more rock and less Justin as beatscaper stuff.

scott seward, Friday, 15 February 2008 22:54 (eight years ago) Permalink

one month passes...

has anybody seen that youtube video where some guy has put Cop to a slideshow of Paris Hilton photos

I know, right?, Thursday, 27 March 2008 21:15 (eight years ago) Permalink

four months pass...

I FINALLY GOT SWANS ARE DEAD I FINALLY GOT SWANS ARE DEAD I FINALLY GOT SWANS ARE DEAD I FINALLY GOT SWANS ARE DEAD I FINALLY GOT SWANS ARE DEAD I FINALLY GOT SWANS ARE DEAD I FINALLY GOT SWANS ARE DEAD I FINALLY

Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You, Saturday, 9 August 2008 07:43 (eight years ago) Permalink

Good, innit?

StanM, Saturday, 9 August 2008 07:52 (eight years ago) Permalink

Fuck yeah are you kidding? I'm flipping my lid.

Bimble Is Still More Goth Than You, Saturday, 9 August 2008 08:18 (eight years ago) Permalink

Swans Are Dead is fucking great, one of my favorite live collections ever. nice choice Bimble.!

stephen, Saturday, 9 August 2008 16:52 (eight years ago) Permalink

Cop is hard to bear, even though I love everything else they've done. Except I admit the first EP is a totally different thing and rather dull, as it happens.

this is fucking crazy talk. granted the remixed version on the filth cd is garbage, but have you ever heard the original vinyl release?

Edward III, Sunday, 10 August 2008 05:44 (eight years ago) Permalink

Classic!

I remember when I first heard Children of God and I thought it was creepy and I guess 'over the top' but listening right now I only hear the beautiful.

sonderangerbot, Monday, 18 August 2008 22:21 (eight years ago) Permalink

two months pass...

Hi ya people,

I've got these SWANS shows,wanted video shows I don't have

AUDIO
CIRCUS MORT(pre-SWANS) E.P. 1981 20' *

Danceteria,NYC ?-?-84 20Â’

Danceteria,NYC ?-?-84 40Â’

The Roxy,L.A.,CA 14-3-86 45'

LA,CA 21-12-85 30Â’

Burgerhuis,Deventer,Holland 24-2-85 40Â’ CASS

electric banana,Pittsburgh,PA 6-10-83 35'

sin club,NY 1982 50'

the rat,Boston,MA 3-5-86 60'

live at sin club/CBGB/Pyramid club,NY 1982-1983 80'

kitchen,NYC 1982 or 1983 25'

Holy Money Tour,Live in Europe 1986 50Â’

Berlin ?-?-84 5Â’

the loft,Berlin? 24-2-97 75Â’

Amsterdam ?-?-88 50Â’

BRNO radio? 2-9-87 40Â’

Warszawa,Polsnd ?-?-86 or 87 45Â’

Variety Theater,Atlanta 29-1-97 75Â’

Errols,Sweden 21-8-87 20Â’

Ljubljana,Yugoslavia FM radio 16-3-86 or 85 35Â’

At the Limelight,NYC(Great Annihilator Tour) 4-7-1992 90Â’

VIDEO
(V)Paradiso,Amsterdam x-x-1986 40Â’

(V)Philadelphia,PA ?-?-1986 40'(Incomplete) DVD

(V)Holy Money Tour DVD

(V)long low screen (o) 1985 60'(33) DVD

(V)Interview+live acoustic 1985 2 songs,snubTV 10'(51)

(V)24-2-86 Nurnberg,West Germany 50Â’ DVD{10}*

(V)15-8-87 konopf,Music Hall,Hamburg,Germany 15'(97) NTSC

(V)x-x-87 Warsaw?,Poland 55'(97) NTSC

(V)Arena,Vienna,Austria 6-8-88 65Â’ DVD

(V)29-8-89 Reading Fest.,UK 60'(97) NTSC DVD{10}*

(V)21-8-89 PowerHouse,Islington,UK 80Â’ DVD

(V)x-6-89 Arenna,Vienna,Austria 80' (97) NTSC

(V)Los Angeles 1989 or 90?? 30Â’ DVD

(V)15-9-95 Markthalle,Hamburg,Germany 60'(97) NTSC

(V)Paradiso,Amsterdam 13-3-97 70Â’ DVD

(V)Schlachthof,Bremen,Germany 12-3-97 65Â’ DVD

(V)Love will tear us apart clip 5'(97) NTSC

(V)Love of life clip 5'(97) NTSC

(V)Skin clip 5'(97) NTSC

(V)Screw clip 5'(97) NTSC

(V)Love of Life 1992 MTV Special clips+Amnesia live Edinburgh 14Â’ DVD{10}*

(V)Int.+Live HideawayÂ’s,Toronto 1995? 10Â’ DVD

almudeno, Thursday, 6 November 2008 13:10 (eight years ago) Permalink

You know there's a ton of live CDRs for sale here, don't you?

http://swans.pair.com/prod_frameset.html

StanM, Thursday, 6 November 2008 15:10 (eight years ago) Permalink

good taste in music, poor judgment

RIP

Edward III, Thursday, 6 November 2008 15:18 (eight years ago) Permalink

one year passes...

Digging this new track!
http://thequietus.com/articles/04724-michael-gira-review-new-swans-album-my-father-will-guide-me-up-a-rope-to-the-sky

This is gonna be real nice I believe....

Hadrian VIII, Monday, 2 August 2010 13:27 (six years ago) Permalink

fragments of all the tracks here: http://younggodrecords.com/Releases/Detail.asp?C=2343

StanM, Monday, 2 August 2010 13:45 (six years ago) Permalink

5. You Fucking People Make Me Sick (5:08)

lol

(e_3) (Edward III), Monday, 2 August 2010 16:20 (six years ago) Permalink

psyched for this

bug holocaust (sleeve), Monday, 2 August 2010 16:28 (six years ago) Permalink

This should be AWESOME. I have very high expectations.

ilxor has truly been got at and become an ILXor (ilxor), Monday, 2 August 2010 17:07 (six years ago) Permalink

if the album art and this are any indication, it's going to be fucking epic

␆␆␆␆␆␆␆␆␆␆␆␆␆␆␆ (LOLK), Monday, 2 August 2010 17:08 (six years ago) Permalink

Swans were the most important band of my life in the 80s and 90s and I can't express in words how much this resurrection, which I never expected to happen, means to me.

There's a more active thread here:

Classic or Dud: Swans

margana (anagram), Monday, 2 August 2010 20:10 (six years ago) Permalink

I love those headshots, that is one fucking band you don't want to meet in a dark alley.

Merdeyeux, Monday, 2 August 2010 22:37 (six years ago) Permalink

That top middle photo is *really* like a Lucien Freud painting.

disastrous sixth series (MaresNest), Monday, 2 August 2010 22:39 (six years ago) Permalink

yeah that's Christoph Hahn who played guitar on my favourite Swans album White Light from the Mouth of Infinity.

margana (anagram), Tuesday, 3 August 2010 10:11 (six years ago) Permalink

What the fuck happened to him?! He was fairly handsome 20 years ago, he can't be that old...

A prog venn diagram for you to think about (Matt #2), Tuesday, 3 August 2010 13:32 (six years ago) Permalink

top right is actually one of the nicest dudes on the entire planet

gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, 3 August 2010 13:34 (six years ago) Permalink

bottom middle is a peach too

(e_3) (Edward III), Tuesday, 3 August 2010 13:51 (six years ago) Permalink

I love those headshots, that is one fucking band you don't want to meet in a dark alley.

a girl I knew roadie'd for both swans and sonic youth back in their early years, she said the sonic youth van was usually quiet + somber whereas in the swans van they were always cracking up and having a good time

(e_3) (Edward III), Tuesday, 3 August 2010 13:57 (six years ago) Permalink

in the swans van they were always cracking up and having a good time

Concur, I was a crew member for Swans in 1997 and a good time was indeed had on the tour bus.

margana (anagram), Tuesday, 3 August 2010 14:00 (six years ago) Permalink

Which one is Thor? none of those guys look like the smiley happy dude I saw playing with Shearwater/

disastrous sixth series (MaresNest), Tuesday, 3 August 2010 21:29 (six years ago) Permalink

God, I am just so completely out the top of my head with anticipation at seeing them.

disastrous sixth series (MaresNest), Tuesday, 3 August 2010 21:31 (six years ago) Permalink

Thor is first row, all the way to the right

markers, Tuesday, 3 August 2010 21:53 (six years ago) Permalink

Is Thor still in Shearwater? They're touring in October and November as well, presumably on the days Swans aren't playing?

StanM, Wednesday, 4 August 2010 04:32 (six years ago) Permalink

saw thor play with lisa germano years ago and it was one of the best shows ever. never saw him with AOL.

scott seward, Wednesday, 4 August 2010 05:00 (six years ago) Permalink

new album is so good. not knocking soundtracks for the blind but this is in the same sublime league as white light from the mouth of infinity and love of life. how is this man 56 and still getting better?

kamerad, Tuesday, 17 August 2010 23:21 (six years ago) Permalink

pretty much what i said on the other swans thread. not as good as white light or LOL but its got that same sound that i love.

scott seward, Tuesday, 17 August 2010 23:27 (six years ago) Permalink

didn't see the other thread. in hindsight those two albums sort of play like akron/family precursors, and working with those guys in angels of light has left its mark on him, for sure. still, i may miss jarboe. no complaints though about this new one whatsoever

kamerad, Tuesday, 17 August 2010 23:49 (six years ago) Permalink

it's great. i never really listened to akron/family. like i said on other thread, i respected the AOL stuff and thought it "sounded" great, but i never played the albums much. hearing new swans just reminds me how much i've played my swans albums over the years. the sound is so addictive to me. new album has a little more digital-ness than i like. when i turn it up loud it starts to break up a bit, but i still dig it. in the past, i always thought gira was one of the most underrated producers/arrangers/engineers of sound that i can think of. i never read things where people rave about the sound of the stuff he does - yes, how "heavy" it is or whatever - but i can't think of many people who have made better sounding records over the last 20 years or so. in the "rock" field anyway. and definitely VERY few people in the u.s. that i can think of.

scott seward, Tuesday, 17 August 2010 23:57 (six years ago) Permalink

gira's been sort of the eno of the 90s/00s. his talent scouting and producing since swans closed shop is pretty mind boggling, and how silly the ubiquitous devendra can be has kind of cast a pall on the awesome angels of light-akron/family collaborations. but anyways, be that as it may, to my ears this new one amplifies what he's been up to with akron/family. it expands on we are him, takes the gloves off. i'm almost scared to listen to it again

kamerad, Wednesday, 18 August 2010 00:10 (six years ago) Permalink

conversely, I can't stop listening to it. f'kn brilliant.

(e_3) (Edward III), Wednesday, 18 August 2010 02:30 (six years ago) Permalink

I can't wait to hear it but this is one album I'm not gonna take advantage of the fact that it's leaked. I've been praying and hoping for a new Swans record for 14 years and I'm gonna do it properly this time. go into town on release day, jump on it in the store, read the sleeve on the bus home, and play it loud and alone.

margana (anagram), Wednesday, 18 August 2010 05:30 (six years ago) Permalink

man. just listened to this all the way through. nothing new to add, will join the chorus: it's fucking GREAT. can't wait to see these guys for the first time ever.

was a little skeptical about Devendra Banhart being on a track, but it works wonderfully.

circa1916, Wednesday, 18 August 2010 07:17 (six years ago) Permalink

so last night i listened to children of god, after only having heard filth, cop, the young god ep and soundtracks for the blind. so basically i had heard them at their most abrasive and (what must be) their nicest. like, the first swans song i had ever heard, the first track on filth, "stay here," is BURNED INTO MY MEMORY because i was so shocked by it.

children of god is good and all, but i gotta say, it's PUSSY SHIT. their earlier releases imo are heavier and darker than most metal i've heard; children of god isn't the complete shift into post-rock "soundtracks" is; it's the same genre of music, post-punk i guess?, but just generally tamer. there are songs with a goddamn chick singing really sweetly over a piano.

i guess this is a pretty pointless post but i am making it anyway.

marc i marc ii marc iii (marc iv), Wednesday, 18 August 2010 19:33 (six years ago) Permalink

Random thoughts:
Gira and Jarboe are 2 of the musicians I could easily imagine being psycho killers.

loool man this is so hilariously true.

marc i marc ii marc iii (marc iv), Wednesday, 18 August 2010 19:34 (six years ago) Permalink

oh right i have to say whether i think they're classic or dud. they're pretty goddamn classic. anyone who says otherwise is a fool. their early shit like i said is REALLY impressively dark; so dark, that i've only heard cop and filth maybe twice each, because it is so difficult to listen to. listening to dark music when you're in a dark mood is cool and all, but i've tried this with swans and it just doesn't work for me! it totally hurtles me over the edge.

marc i marc ii marc iii (marc iv), Wednesday, 18 August 2010 19:37 (six years ago) Permalink

marc iv, there is nothing on Cop or Greed or Filth that's as completely "you will never forget the first time you listened to this" as "Beautiful Child." imo Children of God is a masterpiece. The harshness of the early stuff is amazing no doubt but nothing hits as hard as "Beautiful Child" the first time, that performance is for the ages.

gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Wednesday, 18 August 2010 19:42 (six years ago) Permalink

I'm just pleased somebody's prepared to take a stand on goddamn chicks singing sweetly.

'ray Clamence (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 18 August 2010 20:30 (six years ago) Permalink

marc iv, pick up a copy of Feel Good Now, which is basically Children of God live. Waaaaaay heavier sound. Granted I heard it first, but the studio lp sounds so neutered in comparison...

dlp9001, Thursday, 19 August 2010 02:31 (six years ago) Permalink

is that the one with "beautiful child - the town and country club cowardice backstab" or whatever, the one where the sound guy kills the power to the house but not the monitors and gira just keeps screaming "I WILL KILL/THE CHILD"? because that shit is monstrous

gross rainbow of haerosmith (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Thursday, 19 August 2010 02:35 (six years ago) Permalink

their new album deserves its own thread. more here: Classic or Dud: Swans

Bee OK, Thursday, 19 August 2010 02:39 (six years ago) Permalink

one month passes...

wow "your property" is one huge, raging, frenzied destroyer of a song. brutal and unyielding even by the band's impossibly violent standards around that time. apparently this song is going to be re-worked on the upcoming tour. that would be something.

charlie h, Sunday, 26 September 2010 21:02 (six years ago) Permalink

they already reworked it on the 1995 tour

margana (anagram), Monday, 27 September 2010 08:20 (six years ago) Permalink

yeah, i'm aware of that. though this tour is going to be the first time i'll see them perform, so i'm anticipating it on a personal level.

charlie h, Monday, 27 September 2010 08:39 (six years ago) Permalink

four weeks pass...

They were absolutely stunning at both Supersonic 2010 on Sunday and then in Glasgow on Monday night. I was utterly destroyed. It was crushing and beautiful and masterfully done.

Supersonic 2010:

Arches, Glasgow:

krakow, Tuesday, 26 October 2010 22:22 (six years ago) Permalink

ten months pass...

Probably coming over for Swans/Sir Richard Bishop on Friday. Crüt, J Fever, interested in meeting up?

Halal Spaceboy (WmC), Saturday, 10 September 2011 18:24 (five years ago) Permalink

they were great as usual on Thursday. seemed more, uh, stretched out and jam-y than last year? like fewer recognizable "songs" and more extended workouts. anyway, awesome. Gira's quite an affable guy, isn't he? he was all smiles at the merch table.

circa1916, Saturday, 10 September 2011 19:06 (five years ago) Permalink

i never liked most of their records too much, but they were (are?) exceptionally good live the couple times i've seen them

messiahwannabe, Sunday, 11 September 2011 11:01 (five years ago) Permalink

I interviewed Gira recently; some of it is here, that and more will be in the print edition of Burning Ambulance, soon.

that's not funny. (unperson), Monday, 12 September 2011 11:37 (five years ago) Permalink

THREE MORE DAYS until my show. It's my first time seeing them. Really excited.

some lady (La Lechera), Monday, 19 September 2011 12:47 (five years ago) Permalink

Anxious to hear your report! I really wanted to see that show, but it'll be awhile before I hit up any more concerts.

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Monday, 19 September 2011 13:29 (five years ago) Permalink

great interview unperson

trying to imagine public castration era gira saying this, haha

It’s been really rewarding, because people really seem to get something really true from the music.

black metal version of "the boy with the thorn in his side" (Edward III), Monday, 19 September 2011 13:50 (five years ago) Permalink

Gira's a sweetheart, albeit a very, very intense one.

If Assholes Could Fly This Place Would Be An Airport, Monday, 19 September 2011 15:10 (five years ago) Permalink

The show was AMAZING. I regret that I overestimated the venue's procrastination, and we got there too late to see Sir Richard, which sucked because he was one of the reasons I was going to the show, but whatever, can't rewind time, etc. Plenty of ladies at this show too, which made me happy.

Swans played for 2.5 hours and everyone was covered in sweat. I was particularly happy that they played "Jim". In general, the performance was primordial and volcanic. At one point Gira called the audience "a handsome bunch of Polacks" and "girls". He seemed pretty affable, though, and very very sweaty.

Swans!

some lady (La Lechera), Friday, 23 September 2011 15:46 (five years ago) Permalink

Sounds awesome, glad you enjoyed the show! Pity about missing Sir Richard though.

jon /via/ chi 2.0, Friday, 23 September 2011 15:50 (five years ago) Permalink

It was. For some reason it took us over an hour to actually arrive at the venue. Je55e took too long deciding which black tshirt to wear ;)

some lady (La Lechera), Friday, 23 September 2011 15:53 (five years ago) Permalink

yesterday's show was decent, but they were much better last year. the songs were way too long and got dull quickly...and I love their brand of minimalism! the opening tune this time around topped last year's easily.

Ivan, Friday, 23 September 2011 22:11 (five years ago) Permalink

I didn't go to the show last year because I was too cheap. I liked the opening tune too. When Gira said they were going to play two more songs I was thinking we would be there til 3am, but it was only ("only")1am or so. Lots of people left before the encore when Gira put on the hat.

some lady (La Lechera), Friday, 23 September 2011 22:26 (five years ago) Permalink

ATP schedule conflict of Swans vs Ultramagnetic MCs and I am totally torn.

▂▂▅ dr. whiney says brush your teeth ▂▂▅ (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 23 September 2011 22:34 (five years ago) Permalink

x-post
hahah, I had the same thought. I was expecting two more half-hour jams.

what surprised me most about last night's show was how much the crowd seemed to enjoy the band. I got the feeling that their performance was meant to be divisive, in the sense that they were trying to weed out a demographic of the audience (similar to how Michael disliked the metalheads they were attracting during the mid-80s). but the crowd dug it!

Ivan, Friday, 23 September 2011 22:36 (five years ago) Permalink

hey La Lechera -- I missed Sir Richard Bishop too. Really pissed off about that, actually, and it's not because I was farting around or anything. I checked the Bottom Lounge website earlier in the day, and they had something called "Daniel Knox" listed as the opening band. So I figured that clown goes on for a half-hour, and SRB prolly takes the stage somewhere around 9:45. called the venue at about 9:30 as I was about to depart (trying to decide whether to take a cab or not) and they said SRB actually started at 9:20. So annoying. What, this Daniel Knox played for 10 minutes?

Anyway, great Swans show ... loved the free-flowing improvisatory feel of the whole thing. First song was a 25 minute "No Words/No Thoughts", right? Complete with 15 minute tubular bell intro from Thor, haha. That was amazing. I guess I have more of an appetite for that stuff than Ivan. I thought the whole show was great, longer jams the better!

Stormy Davis, Saturday, 24 September 2011 00:17 (five years ago) Permalink

but yeah, 2 1/2 hour show, sheesh. nowhere near that long when I saw them back in February

Stormy Davis, Saturday, 24 September 2011 00:19 (five years ago) Permalink

oh yeah, and OTM about all the sweat onstage. Bottom Lounge always feels like a sauna, another reason I dislike that place.

Stormy Davis, Saturday, 24 September 2011 00:23 (five years ago) Permalink

You are so OTM about that Daniel Knox business -- what a crock. Part of the reason I went was to see Sir Richard and I totally missed his set? Like, completely? That's messed up.
On the other hand, Thor's intro (and his work generally) was AMAZING and I like super long jams too, that was not really a problem for me (though I was apprehensive when I heard "two more songs", I admit -- they were worth it!). The whole percussion team was part of what made the show so bone-rattling and awesome. By the time I realized what the first song was, I felt like I had already been through the ringer (not in a bad way). I was standing about four people deep on the right hand side of the stage. I would have said hi if I had seen you!

some lady (La Lechera), Saturday, 24 September 2011 04:49 (five years ago) Permalink

Seeing them tonight (this'll be #11 but the first time since they've debuted new material) with Pelican, Rick Bishop, Horseback, and Secret Chiefs III. Yep, at a festival. Luckily I at least like all of those bands.

If Assholes Could Fly This Place Would Be An Airport, Saturday, 24 September 2011 14:14 (five years ago) Permalink

Saw this bill in minneapolis on wed, bishop was amazing

the 500 gats of bartholomew thuggins (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 24 September 2011 14:22 (five years ago) Permalink

re: the heat
I wouldn't be surprised if Gira asked the venue to kill the AC again. those open doors during the encore were fabulous.

Ivan, Saturday, 24 September 2011 19:25 (five years ago) Permalink

I was perfectly comfortable fwiw. Heat didn't bother me in the slightest, but I'm always cold. Going to a show like that and shivering would have sucked.

some lady (La Lechera), Saturday, 24 September 2011 19:34 (five years ago) Permalink

The swans was an incredible thing. Very glad I went but there were times I was kinda bored

the 500 gats of bartholomew thuggins (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 24 September 2011 19:46 (five years ago) Permalink

La Lech -- sorry I missed you! i should have dropped you a note to say I was going, would've been nice to say hi (although I got out of there fast given it was 1 AM!)

those that *did* see Bishop, what kind of set did he do? was it the surf-arabic stuff, a la The Freak of Araby? if so, I'll feel better about it, since I saw him tour that

Stormy Davis, Saturday, 24 September 2011 21:29 (five years ago) Permalink

Solo gibson hollow body, clean tone, guitar, some more drone some leaning towards fahey.....so gorgeous. Also did a strange and hilarious absurdist comedy spoken word piece about having sex with his girlfriend wearing a kennedy mask while she was wearing a marilyn monroe mask

the 500 gats of bartholomew thuggins (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, 25 September 2011 01:00 (five years ago) Permalink

o yah that's a Sun City Girls thing from Dante's Disneyland Inferno, love it. they were doing that on the Brothers Unconnected tour too.

(sorry for derail)

sleeve, Sunday, 25 September 2011 02:44 (five years ago) Permalink

devastatingly awesome performance tonight. new stuff is unbelievable.

bishop played electric and smoked as always. killer.

also, I heart secret chiefs

If Assholes Could Fly This Place Would Be An Airport, Sunday, 25 September 2011 06:11 (five years ago) Permalink

new band is so goddamn locked into the whole thing -- interesting to watch Gira act as 'conductor. anyway, so much fun

Stormy Davis, Sunday, 25 September 2011 06:50 (five years ago) Permalink

four months pass...

OPTIONS TO BUY LIVE 2XCD AND TO HELP SUPPORT NEW SWANS STUDIO ALBUM TITLED “THE SEER” IN PROGRESS:
1. buy hand made web only 2x live swans cd with original signed and numbered woodblock print sleeve made from drawing by m.gira - $30
2. as above AND RECEIVE 2xcd deluxe digi-pack signed version of Swans The Seer immediately upon release: $45
3. as in option 1 AND RECEIVE 2xcd deluxe digi-pack signed version of Swans The Seer, website/tour exclusive package that includes live swans dvd from 2010/11 tours - $55
4. OPTION 3 AND RECEIVE “executive producer” credit in upcoming swans studio album - $100
5. OPTION 3, AND 4 PLUS an original unique drawing by m.gira dedicated to customer (see example below) - $150
6. OPTION 3, AND 4, 5 PLUS be on guest list and meet band for one show on upcoming swans tour(s) 2012/13 - $175
7. OPTION 3, AND 4, 5, 6, plus, AND YES THIS IS REAL m.gira will record a simple, short, original song, acoustic guitar and voice, with customers’ name in the song, praising the customer, and send customer an mp3 of the song - $500
8. OPTION 3, AND 4, 5, 6, 7 and contribute an additional $100 or more over option 7, and receive undying gratitude, and a secret gift.

YOUR PURCHASE OF ANY OF THE ABOVE OPTIONS CONTRIBUTES DIRECTLY TOWARDS THE CONSIDERABLE (AND EVER EXPANDING) RECORDING COST OF THE NEW SWANS STUDIO ALBUM, THE SEER, IN PROGRESS)

wut?!

La Lechera, Thursday, 2 February 2012 17:04 (four years ago) Permalink

I'm happy to see Uncle Mike is no longer offering fingers as rewards.

I'm totally doing #3.

If Assholes Could Fly This Place Would Be An Airport, Thursday, 2 February 2012 17:07 (four years ago) Permalink

me too
if only the site was up :-/

StanM, Thursday, 2 February 2012 17:52 (four years ago) Permalink

Had to try for more than an hour, but I finally did it. Option 3 it is.

StanM, Thursday, 2 February 2012 18:59 (four years ago) Permalink

Would have loved to do option 3 but option 1 it is for me. And finally happily purchased too, that took...2 hours?

Ned Raggett, Thursday, 2 February 2012 19:01 (four years ago) Permalink

one month passes...

I remember when I first heard Children of God and I thought it was creepy and I guess 'over the top' but listening right now I only hear the beautiful.

I liked it at the time because I liked "goth" music....but it has mellowed with age.
I am quite enjoying Children of God / World of Skin right now!

โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Colored on TV! (Mount Cleaners), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 13:32 (four years ago) Permalink

I've only gotten into Filth/Cop/Young God but man, do they really put me in a bad place. I wish I could see my own face when I'm listening to them.

frogbs, Wednesday, 21 March 2012 13:39 (four years ago) Permalink

The early stuff sounds so tame by today's standards.

โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Colored on TV! (Mount Cleaners), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 15:51 (four years ago) Permalink

not sure what standards (bands?) you're referring to there, but whatever they might be, it's a dead cert they owe a debt to Swans.

my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 15:58 (four years ago) Permalink

I mean Slipknot are a million times louder and millions of kids listen to them.

โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Colored on TV! (Mount Cleaners), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:01 (four years ago) Permalink

yeah but Slipknot doesn't have Michael Gira so it doesn't really affect me like that

frogbs, Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:03 (four years ago) Permalink

they strike me as a spectacularly obvious cabaret act these days what with gira's preacher costume / guilt shame redemption damnation schtick. sandra bernhard does flannery o'connor.
the records sound good but they feel insubstantial.
they're touring rock band on the circuit - you can pay to see them play a drinking hole near you.
admittedly, nobody does slave-ship johnny cash better, but some guys in a van playing singer songwriter songs or pretty much all music in general leaves me cold now.
consume it. enjoy it.

iglu ferrignu, Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:05 (four years ago) Permalink

not sure abt that, early Swans were reputedly the loudest band ever. in a contest between early Swans and Slipknot to determine who was the most "tame", early Swans would lose.

xxp

my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:05 (four years ago) Permalink

I mean Slipknot are a million times louder and millions of kids listen to them.

this is the absurdest of all absurd comparisons in the history of time

diamanda ram dass (Edward III), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:09 (four years ago) Permalink

I'm just asking why Slipknot aren't considered extreme. But you're right, I'm sorry about my lack of clarity.

โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Colored on TV! (Mount Cleaners), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:10 (four years ago) Permalink

it's like saying james brown sounds so tame compared to today's funkmasters like the red hot chili peppers

diamanda ram dass (Edward III), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:12 (four years ago) Permalink

What I mean to say is, the proverbial mom of yesterday would say, "turn that extreme underground industrial music off". When a lot of it is rhythmic and less abrasive to my classically trained ears. Whereas the same type of mom twenty years on says, "oh look at my cute punk rock kid." Some of today's music is really loud, but sell a lot of product and it's okay.

I do think the Red Hot Chili Peppers are less tame in the presentation and in the actual texture in the music. It's not a qualitative comparison. I mean, my grandmother likes James Brown. She would find the Chili Peppers "too noisy".

โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Colored on TV! (Mount Cleaners), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:18 (four years ago) Permalink

if a kid was listening to a slipknot record a proverbial mom of today would say "turn down that emo mall metal, kid", if they were listening to public castration is a good idea she would say "please don't kill yourself, do I need to call someone"

also what do you have against moms moms can be cool too

diamanda ram dass (Edward III), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:23 (four years ago) Permalink

I kinda see what you mean though. I know a bunch of people who are into bands like Slipknot or other metal and I've tried to turn them onto Swans. One of them really liked it - the rest without fail would say something like "this is really, really horrible"

frogbs, Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:25 (four years ago) Permalink

yeah so they don't like it b/c it's too extreme, not b/c it's too tame

my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:27 (four years ago) Permalink

yeah let's compare

diamanda ram dass (Edward III), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:29 (four years ago) Permalink

Of course not, this is art band, so it's probably not their thing.

Sorry to invoke so much attention. I'll leave the thread to wrongly enjoy something.

โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Colored on TV! (Mount Cleaners), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:30 (four years ago) Permalink

yeah but when you describe them as "industrial frowncore" their ears perk up

frogbs, Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:37 (four years ago) Permalink

you don't have to leave, it's just there were a lot of bands who seemed weird and scary and oppressive back in the day, swans are one of the few whose recordings haven't aged a bit, that purity of vision still smashes all comers imo

diamanda ram dass (Edward III), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:39 (four years ago) Permalink

Maybe they haven't aged because they weren't that "scary". Some people found angry hardcore "scary". Some people found Satan references in heavy metal "scary". So maybe not scary at all...just more thoughtful of how their work might sound in twenty years! Which is pretty listenable, actually.

โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Colored on TV! (Mount Cleaners), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:48 (four years ago) Permalink

yeeeah, i don't think early Swans "sounds so tame by today's standards" at all. it's still kind of the gold standard for heavy, punishing stuff imo.

circa1916, Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:51 (four years ago) Permalink

yeah see that's not what I'm getting, why you find early Swans more listenable than Slipknot

my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:52 (four years ago) Permalink

Punishing? It's awesome!

โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Colored on TV! (Mount Cleaners), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 16:54 (four years ago) Permalink

The early stuff sounds so tame by today's standards.

― โตเกียวเหมียวเหมียว aka Colored on TV! (Mount Cleaners), Wednesday, March 21, 2012 8:51 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yeah, i don't get this at all. shit was horrible, near-unlistenable dirge groan back then and still is today. slipknot are a funtimes metal band.

Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 17:08 (four years ago) Permalink

sometimes I see ppl discover swans and they subsequently ask "what else is like this" and the answer is, nothing really. you can point to stuff like godflesh or neurosis, but those folks capture the music but not the magic, nobody took sour brutality to the same primal places. what swans did transcended the intellectual or theatrical pretenses bound up in a term like "art band", delivering instead something very direct, visceral, and punishing. which is why they did ultimately have an effect on the hardcore and metal scenes, but all those bands are easily recognizable as hardcore or metal bands, whereas swans invented a type of music that didn't exist before and hasn't since.

diamanda ram dass (Edward III), Wednesday, 21 March 2012 17:20 (four years ago) Permalink

Saw them in 1985 supporting the Fall at Heaven. Possibly the most extreme gig I've ever seen. They deserve some respect for going that far.
I have heard few of their albums. Those that I have heard have been among the most negative, miserable, pointless pieces of music that I have ever encountered. No doubt Gira would in some way approve of this reaction. I couldn't care less. Dud.

― Dr. C, Saturday, March 17, 2001 1:00 AM (11 years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Funny I was at this gig in 1984 I think. Have it associated in my head with the Black Flag Marquee gig & the first Bad Seeds show at the Electric Ballroom.
It's always stuck in my mind. Gira pulling himself up and down with a noose hanging slightly in front of the stage. Not sure how many people actually stayed for the full set particularly as the bar was elsewhere from what I recall.

Loved their material pretty much ever since.

Stevolende, Wednesday, 21 March 2012 17:26 (four years ago) Permalink

two months pass...

How's their live show nowadays? I am considering seeing them in Milwaukee but I'm not really sure what to expect or if it's even something I can enjoy. I feel like it's going to be the aural equivilent of banging my head against the wall but I kinda want to do it anyway.

frogbs, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 14:55 (four years ago) Permalink

you seemed to get on okay w/the internet equivalent of banging your head against a wall so

blossom smulch (schlump), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 16:48 (four years ago) Permalink

lol

current live show is amazing + transcendent, intense + pummeling, not nihilistic like the old days, more like the loudest tent revival meeting you ever saw.

diamanda ram dass (Edward III), Wednesday, 6 June 2012 17:17 (four years ago) Permalink

one month passes...

my friend saw them in SF when they came through last year and he was on mushrooms and says that it was the most amazing, powerful experience he's ever had.

for reasons of sass (the table is the table), Thursday, 26 July 2012 05:04 (four years ago) Permalink

eight months pass...

I saw them for the first time last night, p incredible. The first hour was the kind of brutal unrelenting assault I was expecting and great for it, but I suppose for the second hour my body gave up all resistance and I was 100% ~inside~ the sound, I felt like I could've gone on for hours more. My special blessings go to the maniacs not wearing earplugs (Gira included, I suppose his ears are like precisely but violently cut diamonds by now) and the shirtless guy next to me going crazy with his buddies.

(Mouth to Mouth was a really fun evening overall, if tough on the legs and back. Grouper and Xiu Xiu both beautiful and intense in their v different ways, Mercury Rev more enjoyable than I thought they'd be, if a bit corny and reliant on the same few tricks over and over. Didn't really get Ben Frost, sounded like little more than cheesy if massive EBM to me, but crowd reaction and twitter search suggest that I'm missing something there.)

a similar stunt failed to work with a cow (Merdeyeux), Friday, 5 April 2013 13:11 (three years ago) Permalink

three months pass...

yeah, i don't get this at all. shit was horrible, near-unlistenable dirge groan back then and still is today.

― Fozzy Osbourne (contenderizer), Wednesday, March 21, 2012 10:08 AM (1 year ago)

been listening to we rose from Your bed with the sun in our head for a few days now, several hours a day. it's great. more groove-oriented than any swans i remember hearing before, immersive where i've previously found them repellent. after 20-some years trying, the door.

IIIrd Datekeeper (contenderizer), Thursday, 1 August 2013 16:32 (three years ago) Permalink

try this next

this gtr climbed mt. washington (Edward III), Thursday, 1 August 2013 18:01 (three years ago) Permalink

lol, i've still got public castration is a good idea on vinyl from way back when. should dig it out.

IIIrd Datekeeper (contenderizer), Thursday, 1 August 2013 18:31 (three years ago) Permalink

their finest hour imo tho you may want to ease yrself into the bathtub w/ filth first

this gtr climbed mt. washington (Edward III), Thursday, 1 August 2013 18:57 (three years ago) Permalink

holy money and children of god burned up in a fire years back. wasn't a fan, but enjoyed thinking about how much someone would pay me for them (song ideas for michael). now i wish i still had them around for actual listening to. are swans on spotify? wow, yeah, a bunch of stuff, anyway. surprises me somehow. gira doesn't seem to have much patience for freeloaders.

IIIrd Datekeeper (contenderizer), Thursday, 1 August 2013 19:09 (three years ago) Permalink

wow, that no wave swans debut is kind of great. speaking of groove n all. never heard it before.

IIIrd Datekeeper (contenderizer), Thursday, 1 August 2013 19:10 (three years ago) Permalink

one of my favorite things they did. lotta playback value since you won't feel like killing yrself after listening. unfortunately the original mixdown masters were lost and the subsequent 1990 remaster was terrible.

as a general statement their 80s stuff is best heard on vinyl, and the CD remasters pale in comparison, but that 1st EP is unlistenable on CD.

this gtr climbed mt. washington (Edward III), Thursday, 1 August 2013 19:37 (three years ago) Permalink

ed what about the 1990 vinyl reissue? still from the same botched masters?

sleeve, Thursday, 1 August 2013 23:38 (three years ago) Permalink

what's vinyl

markers, Thursday, 1 August 2013 23:39 (three years ago) Permalink

filth was reissued on CD and vinyl in '90, the CD had the labor EP tacked onto the end. afaik there was no vinyl reissue of the EP by itself?

the '90 vinyl reissue of filth is not that great compared to the 80s pressings, it has the same master as the CD.

this gtr climbed mt. washington (Edward III), Friday, 2 August 2013 02:16 (three years ago) Permalink

GETTING TAKEN TO THE BASEMENT GETTING FUCKED TO EASE SOME TENSION

didn't know bob pezzola also played with these guys round the same time

cock chirea, Friday, 2 August 2013 02:31 (three years ago) Permalink

ok according to discogs there *was* a '90 vinyl reish of the labor EP on young god. I never heard it but considering the '90 young god reish of filth on vinyl had a less than optimal mix/master, I assume the EP is the same.

this gtr climbed mt. washington (Edward III), Friday, 2 August 2013 03:52 (three years ago) Permalink

lol

Merdeyeux, Friday, 2 August 2013 12:19 (three years ago) Permalink

what's vinyl

― markers, Thursday, August 1, 2013 4:39 PM (Yesterday)

IIIrd Datekeeper (contenderizer), Friday, 2 August 2013 12:54 (three years ago) Permalink

poor markers

ok according to discogs there *was* a '90 vinyl reish of the labor EP on young god. I never heard it but considering the '90 young god reish of filth on vinyl had a less than optimal mix/master, I assume the EP is the same.

― this gtr climbed mt. washington (Edward III), Friday, 2 August 2013 03:52

Yeah this is what I was referring to, I trust yr judgment if u have heard the Filth reish.

sleeve, Friday, 2 August 2013 14:27 (three years ago) Permalink

i used to have the Speak EP reissue on vinyl.. and it sounded ok to me at the time... but that EP has a much more brittle, tinny sound that the first LP - which sounds like it was recorded in a swamp..

now i wish i never sold it, and the Circus Mort 12" I had as well :-(

Stop the tape I got spittle all over my moustache. (Talcum Mucker), Friday, 2 August 2013 19:04 (three years ago) Permalink

I interviewed Michael Gira a couple of days ago ahead of Swans' Irish shows next week.

wronger than 100 geir posts (MacDara), Sunday, 4 August 2013 15:51 (three years ago) Permalink

with those shows in mind, how loud are Swans live circa 2013?

Master of Treacle, Sunday, 4 August 2013 23:33 (three years ago) Permalink

They get loud - last time I saw 'em was 2010 or 2011, and I was glad for earplugs.

wronger than 100 geir posts (MacDara), Monday, 5 August 2013 08:26 (three years ago) Permalink

Good interview!

Beatrix Kiddo (Raymond Cummings), Monday, 5 August 2013 11:10 (three years ago) Permalink

Saw them within a month of seeing MBV earlier this year, and the two were comparably loud, but Swans were more physical. If that makes sense.

they all are afflicted with a sickness of existence (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 5 August 2013 11:14 (three years ago) Permalink

Definitely glad of earplugs at both.

they all are afflicted with a sickness of existence (Scik Mouthy), Monday, 5 August 2013 11:14 (three years ago) Permalink

five months pass...

Man this looks like it could be interesting.

MaresNest, Tuesday, 7 January 2014 11:37 (two years ago) Permalink

three weeks pass...

So uh what's the deal with ANOTHER 2CD set? What does Michael Gira have against editing?

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Tuesday, 28 January 2014 15:31 (two years ago) Permalink

hey, no complaints here!

sleeve, Tuesday, 28 January 2014 16:02 (two years ago) Permalink

Swans songs-albs have been long for....fifteen years or more now? Gira has never made any secret of his love for Floydian jams like 'Set the Controls..', and 'new' Swans have been working towards that for a while.

But as sleeve sez, bring it on.

Ward Fowler, Tuesday, 28 January 2014 16:16 (two years ago) Permalink

i still can't get over thor's stupid bossy "how to live" listicle
it's making swans difficult for me to like! how do i get over this?

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Tuesday, 28 January 2014 21:17 (two years ago) Permalink

Where is this list?

Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 29 January 2014 00:08 (two years ago) Permalink

mostly pretty sensible tbh. I'm gonna assume the jerkier bits were contributed by she who shall not be named.

And why the fuck should we not all be excited by another two hours of fucking SWANS? bring it.

Simon H., Wednesday, 29 January 2014 00:15 (two years ago) Permalink

i should just try to forget about it
it's not his recommendations themselves that bother me, but the writing of the list in the first place
just gonna try to unsee it

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 January 2014 00:27 (two years ago) Permalink

haha I thought you were talking about the "how to survive on tour" list, hadn't seen that one

sleeve, Wednesday, 29 January 2014 01:10 (two years ago) Permalink

I dont know why the list bothers you that much, I thought it was pretty good.

Had no idea Palmer knew any Swans people.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 29 January 2014 01:40 (two years ago) Permalink

Other than speeding tickets and cirrhosis this seems... suspect:

16. PREVENTABLE EXPENSES - STD’S, ABORTIONS, DWI’S, LUNG CANCER, HEAD INJURIES, SPEEDING TICKETS, CIRRHOSIS OF THE LIVER.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Wednesday, 29 January 2014 02:03 (two years ago) Permalink

Drummer named Thor has no sympathy for those who are not masters of their domain, film at eleven

da croupier, Wednesday, 29 January 2014 02:26 (two years ago) Permalink

Yeah, some of rule 16 was a bit odd. I think most people try to avoid head injury.

Is cirrhosis easy for everyone to avoid?

Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 29 January 2014 02:51 (two years ago) Permalink

WRITE IN ALL CAPS, LIKE A BOSS

paolo, Wednesday, 29 January 2014 10:14 (two years ago) Permalink

NEws of St Vincent and Swans teaming up - *falls down dead, goes to heaven*

The Robotic Policeman II (dog latin), Wednesday, 29 January 2014 11:10 (two years ago) Permalink

the list is smug, misanthropic, quite up itself in a teenage-y way unbecoming a guy of his age tbh

rock nobster (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 29 January 2014 12:32 (two years ago) Permalink

Contributions from Amanda Palmer. God she gets everywhere doesn't she?

doglato dozzy (dog latin), Wednesday, 29 January 2014 12:35 (two years ago) Permalink

9. If you like booze, drink at home with your neighbors.

10. Do people favors. It’s called Cooperation. It’s how the world worked before money.

^ so misanthropic

keiji cretins (NickB), Wednesday, 29 January 2014 12:52 (two years ago) Permalink

So the recording of the new album was fan funded but it's being released by Mute? I'm all for Gira taking control of his career etc, but it seems like funding a Swans album would be pocket change for Mute, no?

Position Position, Wednesday, 29 January 2014 13:03 (two years ago) Permalink

xp

i'm not gonna get into "don't have kids" on here

rock nobster (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 29 January 2014 13:05 (two years ago) Permalink

good point

xp

my father will guide me up the stairs to bed (anagram), Wednesday, 29 January 2014 13:08 (two years ago) Permalink

I think most of it was advice in an exaggerrated manner, I'm sure plenty of his friends and associates break plenty of these rules (especially about having kids. I doubt he sneers at Gira for having children).

Robert Adam Gilmour, Wednesday, 29 January 2014 17:39 (two years ago) Permalink

I don't want to overexplain this, but it's the simple fact that he wrote a presumptive aggrieved-sounding list of unsolicited advice -- it's that impulse that repulses me, not the content. Although that's pretty bad in some places too. Anyway, I am trying to say who cares and move on.

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 January 2014 17:55 (two years ago) Permalink

it's like the hardman version of "dance like no one's watching"

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Wednesday, 29 January 2014 17:56 (two years ago) Permalink

^^

Squidward Ka-Spel (Noodle Vague), Wednesday, 29 January 2014 17:57 (two years ago) Permalink

gonna go with "unbecoming for a man his age" here

another addition could be "work for yourself, don't be anybody's fucking paid employee"... oh wait

sleeve, Wednesday, 29 January 2014 20:28 (two years ago) Permalink

guys, it's nothing to get offended at. it's jokey in tone

illegalblues, Thursday, 30 January 2014 16:40 (two years ago) Permalink

I found it obnoxious too but it doesn't effect my enjoyment of the band at all, come on LL. I dont think I'd want to meet any of these guys in person anyway!

frogbs, Thursday, 30 January 2014 16:42 (two years ago) Permalink

Yeah, this is Swans.

the drummer is a monster (Scik Mouthy), Thursday, 30 January 2014 17:10 (two years ago) Permalink

Ok ok, I'm over it!

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 January 2014 17:17 (two years ago) Permalink

Seem like nice people to me, but maybe a bit grumpy.
When I saw the Swans a couple of years ago I saw Thor meeting someone who must have been an old friend or something, it was really sweet how excited he looked at meeting the person. For some reason this sticks in my mind.

I still think there is good stuff on that list (surely overpopulation is something that doesnt get talked about enough; science fiction authors were scared of it in the 60s-70s, so why arent there loads of movies about it now?); there is some advice about self-sufficiency that I should probably take but I'm too scared of hurting my hands doing diy stuff.
For every time I roll my eyes at some obvious overfamiliar piece of wisdom, I think that there is always going to be some people who have never thought about it.
I remember a girl on Devianart who was asking for help because her boyfriend beat her up and she blamed herself for it. The idea that she was being wrongfully abused seemed like a total revelation to her.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, 30 January 2014 17:55 (two years ago) Permalink

ha, i enjoyed that list, thor seems cool. my brother hung out with all the swans on a recent tour, had dinner and breakfast with them through a mutual friend. said thor was super nice. gira was kind of a dick but that's no surprise.

marcos, Thursday, 30 January 2014 19:03 (two years ago) Permalink

Thor is one of the sweetest people I've ever known. I dislike lists of what people should or shouldn't do though his how to be in a band one was funny because if you spend a lot of your life in a tour van a lot of it resonated. the strength of that piece was that it spoke from an experience many share but that's unusual for many. I don't think it's presumptuous for a guy who's been in a bunch of bands & is well liked by almost everybody he's worked with to write a "how to be in a band" list, but I think it's presumptuous for pretty much anybody to write a "here's how to live your life list" well there we have it I've shared my opinion about Thor's list have a nice day everybody

joe perry has been dead for years (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, 30 January 2014 20:11 (two years ago) Permalink

i'm glad to know we share the same opinion about thor and his list! he seems like a decent person, it's just the "how to live" list-making itself that i dislike but I'd feel the same way if my beloved or bff made a similar list. just kinda disappointed.

CARRY ON with the music-making, Swans

mambo jumbo (La Lechera), Thursday, 30 January 2014 20:44 (two years ago) Permalink

two months pass...

listening to Filth first time ever, and yeah these guys have pretty much always been good. Yet another addition to the "I can't believe this happened in 1983" canon, and in a weird way, can see how this would have influenced extreme metal bands. Not in the speed department, but in the generally inhuman, grinding beats and guitars.

Dominique, Tuesday, 15 April 2014 22:34 (two years ago) Permalink

oh dear lord Public Castration Is A Good Thing

Dominique, Friday, 18 April 2014 16:31 (two years ago) Permalink

yes, that one

sleeve, Friday, 18 April 2014 16:35 (two years ago) Permalink

"oxygen" is killer

reggie (qualmsley), Monday, 21 April 2014 15:13 (two years ago) Permalink

three weeks pass...

you guys

https://youtu.be/AKb88rSal6M

circa1916, Saturday, 17 May 2014 20:33 (two years ago) Permalink

http://youtu.be/AKb88rSal6M

circa1916, Saturday, 17 May 2014 20:33 (two years ago) Permalink

nnng. one day i'll do this correctly.

circa1916, Saturday, 17 May 2014 20:34 (two years ago) Permalink

put an "s" after the http

KrafTwerk (sleeve), Saturday, 17 May 2014 20:41 (two years ago) Permalink

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKb88rSal6M

circa1916, Sunday, 18 May 2014 09:22 (two years ago) Permalink

thought i had it that time. why am i still here.

circa1916, Sunday, 18 May 2014 09:23 (two years ago) Permalink

I think you actually need to remove the s after http.

overwhelmed with sweat (GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ), Sunday, 18 May 2014 09:33 (two years ago) Permalink

:)

circa1916, Sunday, 18 May 2014 09:47 (two years ago) Permalink

is there another thread to talk about the new album?

i picked it up at their show in DC the other day. it was the second time i've seen them, and it was predictably great, albeit slightly less ferocious than the last time around (the seer tour).

Karl Malone, Sunday, 18 May 2014 14:40 (two years ago) Permalink

four weeks pass...

Meantime I looked back thirty years...

http://thequietus.com/articles/15465-swans-cop-anniversary-review

Ned Raggett, Monday, 16 June 2014 16:14 (two years ago) Permalink

Ned I hate to tell you this but "Half Life" is the opener, not "Why Hide" ;)

polyamanita (sleeve), Monday, 16 June 2014 16:25 (two years ago) Permalink

it sounds like you are describing the right track fwiw

polyamanita (sleeve), Monday, 16 June 2014 16:25 (two years ago) Permalink

nine months pass...

SWANS QUESTION

i just saw them a couple days ago and the last song they played had a penultimate part that sounded almost exactly like "Mother Sky" only without the lead guitar or fancy drum overdubs -- just the condensed essence (the doot doot dootdootdoot part was prominent)

they played a couple of faster songs this set and i really liked it -- the trombone one and the mother skyish song in particular
i overheard thor tell someone that they were playing all new stuff so i was just wondering if anyone else had heard the same thing?

groundless round (La Lechera), Tuesday, 31 March 2015 14:42 (one year ago) Permalink

update: I have discovered that the song is called Black Hole Man

groundless round (La Lechera), Wednesday, 1 April 2015 13:46 (one year ago) Permalink

mother of the world or piece of the sky?

why dont u say something or like just die (dog latin), Wednesday, 1 April 2015 15:43 (one year ago) Permalink

no
i know both of those songs and it was neither of those

groundless round (La Lechera), Wednesday, 1 April 2015 15:46 (one year ago) Permalink

i know mother of the world backwards and forwards! it was on my workout mix for a year.

groundless round (La Lechera), Wednesday, 1 April 2015 15:46 (one year ago) Permalink

oh... the Can song. duh...

why dont u say something or like just die (dog latin), Wednesday, 1 April 2015 15:55 (one year ago) Permalink

Mother Sky is also on my workout mix, that's why I'm so sensitive to hearing parts of it, hence the above question.

groundless round (La Lechera), Wednesday, 1 April 2015 16:27 (one year ago) Permalink

checking out a massive live tape from last week -- kicking myself for not going to see them the last time they were here.

tylerw, Wednesday, 1 April 2015 19:33 (one year ago) Permalink

That's how I felt about missing the Chicago show! I'm convinced that Chris Pravdica is their secret weapon.

groundless round (La Lechera), Wednesday, 1 April 2015 19:45 (one year ago) Permalink

Update: I conferred with someone who saw the Chicago show about the Mother Sky sounding song (he is someone who would know what I was talking about too, and wouldn't hesitate to tell me if i were mistaken) and he agreed, and added that he heard it in the bassline. So Swans enthusiasts can look forward to hearing more of that. I know I am at least.

groundless round (La Lechera), Thursday, 2 April 2015 16:58 (one year ago) Permalink

"Black Hole Man" was the encore at the recent SF show I went to. It was amazing.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Thursday, 2 April 2015 17:14 (one year ago) Permalink

won't you come and wash away the rain

example (crüt), Thursday, 2 April 2015 17:22 (one year ago) Permalink

here's a recording of the whole set apparently?

groundless round (La Lechera), Monday, 13 April 2015 14:59 (one year ago) Permalink

wow thanks

sleeve, Monday, 13 April 2015 15:19 (one year ago) Permalink

one month passes...

The 3CD deluxe reissue of Filth, which also includes the debut 12" EP, Body to Body, Job to Job and a bunch of bonus live tracks, all newly remastered, is available for preorder now (street date is 5/26).

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Thursday, 14 May 2015 17:37 (one year ago) Permalink

oh wow! never thought that would happen, tbh

sleeve, Thursday, 14 May 2015 17:39 (one year ago) Permalink

Thanks! Don't they send out mails about this kind of thing anymore?

StanM, Thursday, 14 May 2015 19:02 (one year ago) Permalink

THis new set comes with the audio for the London debut which was when i first saw them. Might just get another copy of this since it also has the first e.p. which I was just thinking I'd never heard last night. Have heard the soundbites up at the suite now.
I think the stripey back cover of the 3cd set is the front cover of that e.p. isn't it?

Stevolende, Thursday, 14 May 2015 22:26 (one year ago) Permalink

yes

sleeve, Thursday, 14 May 2015 22:27 (one year ago) Permalink

Apparently (and I ordered before I knew this) if you pre-order it from the YG site, Gira signs it.

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Thursday, 14 May 2015 23:15 (one year ago) Permalink

He seems to do that with most of the stuff you get from the YG site doesn't he? I've certainly had a number of things bought from there come with his autograph.
Could just be recent releases but certainly seems to be something he does regularly

Stevolende, Thursday, 14 May 2015 23:42 (one year ago) Permalink

a la his mate jim foetus, a similar online groove.

mark e, Thursday, 14 May 2015 23:53 (one year ago) Permalink

(have heard that jim does the whole foetus online thing himself these days, and it would not surprise me if michael followed the same path)

mark e, Thursday, 14 May 2015 23:55 (one year ago) Permalink

one month passes...

Just got it today - I can't say I hear a whole lot of difference between this version of Filth/Body To Body and the ones that were released on YG in 2000, which sounded more than adequate already. The Swans EP sounds way better than any version I'd heard before + the CBGB's and London recordings sound rather mediocre to say the least :-/

StanM, Wednesday, 17 June 2015 16:05 (one year ago) Permalink

one month passes...

https://www.facebook.com/SwansOfficial/photos/a.487755361977.266239.13879391977/10153948860591978/?type=1 : remaster/reissue of White Light From The Mouth Of Infinity in the works
+
https://www.facebook.com/SwansOfficial/photos/a.487755361977.266239.13879391977/10153779357881978/?type=1 : new album to be recorded starting in September

StanM, Sunday, 19 July 2015 16:10 (one year ago) Permalink

Now that I'm mentioning WLFTMOI: check out the longer version of Why Are We Alive on Various Failures, it's way better than the original

StanM, Sunday, 19 July 2015 16:23 (one year ago) Permalink

... even though the first 3'50" are identical :-)

StanM, Sunday, 19 July 2015 16:28 (one year ago) Permalink

great news, love that album

sleeve, Sunday, 19 July 2015 18:54 (one year ago) Permalink

https://www.facebook.com/SwansOfficial/photos/a.487755361977.266239.13879391977/10154034056451978/

Imminent end of Swans again.

I spoke to Norman about a year ago and I strongly inferred he felt like he was getting too old to still be doing it. You then get to the "is it the Swans with just Gira" argument I guess.

arbiter of sorrow (aldo), Thursday, 23 July 2015 07:48 (one year ago) Permalink

good decision, not Swans w/o Westberg imo

sleeve, Thursday, 23 July 2015 13:57 (one year ago) Permalink

Gira said in a 2011 interview that "[Swans] is what I’m going to be doing for the next five years", so I think he's had this thing mapped out for a good long while.

anthony braxton diamond geezer (anagram), Thursday, 23 July 2015 14:12 (one year ago) Permalink

haha, love the description of the next studio album as an "insatiable beast". can't wait!

1992 ball boy (Karl Malone), Thursday, 23 July 2015 18:00 (one year ago) Permalink

ha i wasn't aware there was a swans facebook page does anyone else find it really super weird and incongruous to see michael gira posting something on facebook?

marcos, Thursday, 23 July 2015 18:12 (one year ago) Permalink

not trying to be contrary, but don't think it's weird at all that gira is on facebook - he's always gone in for fan communication, using all available channels to reach out/promote - never really saw him as a luddite/crank hiding in his cave

sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Thursday, 23 July 2015 18:18 (one year ago) Permalink

^^^ people assume he's distant because his art is aggro but he wrote all the one-sheets for every act on Young God Records and championed the albums ceaselessly

he's not mr. warmth but he's not Artist Removed From the Process either

Joan Crawford Loves Chachi, Thursday, 23 July 2015 18:51 (one year ago) Permalink

oh yea it's not the fan communication that struck me, my main impression tbh from the young god website was "wow gira is super chatty"

more just that it was facebook

marcos, Thursday, 23 July 2015 18:53 (one year ago) Permalink

Yeah, disagree that Gira is not Mr Warmth, he's bizarrely close to fans.

I remember at SSonic people being freaked out by him leaving out a handwritten note that said "I'll be around to sign stuff later, or just to hang out so please don't leave and stay back to say Hi".

arbiter of sorrow (aldo), Thursday, 23 July 2015 20:03 (one year ago) Permalink

this interview is funny

chaki (kurt schwitterz), Thursday, 23 July 2015 20:07 (one year ago) Permalink

i ordered some stuff from young god in like 07 or so and gira wrote me an email expressing his hope that all was well in new orleans. so he's a cool dude in my book.

adam, Thursday, 23 July 2015 20:36 (one year ago) Permalink

When I saw them a couple of yrs ago I went with a friend who is a super fan and waited around afterward so she could take her picture with Gira and he was very pleasant and friendly.

Though I did mention if she had really wanted her picture taken with a dude in a big hat & smoking a cigar I could arranged that pretty easy and we wouldn't have to wait.

chr1sb3singer, Thursday, 23 July 2015 20:47 (one year ago) Permalink

one month passes...

New handmade live CD now available to order:

http://younggodrecords.com/products/the-gate

anthony braxton diamond geezer (anagram), Wednesday, 2 September 2015 14:17 (one year ago) Permalink

I was just posting that, but waiting till my payment cleared before hitting submit.

suffeeciant attreebution (aldo), Wednesday, 2 September 2015 14:17 (one year ago) Permalink

that link is blocked here - is it one particular gig, or drawn from different shows (would love a good copy of their Roundhouse concert)

sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 2 September 2015 14:33 (one year ago) Permalink

As to The Gate itself, it was recorded in Berlin at Berghain, night 2, for the most part, in 2014

sleeve, Wednesday, 2 September 2015 14:41 (one year ago) Permalink

really wish Gira could do the whole "buy the live CD of the gig, right after the gig" thing, seems perfect for them but it probably a big logistics nightmare

sleeve, Wednesday, 2 September 2015 14:43 (one year ago) Permalink

Berghain chosen for a specific reason:

this was the very night that our rendition of the song The Apostate morphed through improvisation into what has since become, through the usual trials, The Cloud of Unknowing

suffeeciant attreebution (aldo), Wednesday, 2 September 2015 14:46 (one year ago) Permalink

I'm not a big fan of that. Sometimes you miss the encores b/c they stop recording to start making the CDs (or USB sticks, which Neubauten use). Also, the recordings are obviously unmixed and unpackaged, and can sound pretty ropey. I prefer the way Dead Can Dance did it a few years ago, you bought a voucher at the gig and they sent you the properly mixed CD a few weeks later.

anthony braxton diamond geezer (anagram), Wednesday, 2 September 2015 14:47 (one year ago) Permalink

Would def be interested in a Mick's Picks live series

sʌxihɔːl (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 2 September 2015 14:56 (one year ago) Permalink

xp yeah you're probably right there, just daydreaming

sleeve, Wednesday, 2 September 2015 14:58 (one year ago) Permalink

also, LOL at "Mick's Picks"

sleeve, Wednesday, 2 September 2015 14:58 (one year ago) Permalink

From further down that page -

"... Though there’s still much to be said and new landscapes to explore on the new album and final (but yes, anticipated to be endless) tour, it’s time that we… what’s the word here… dissolve. By this I mean that each of us will continue on our own glorious diamond-strewn path - well, my 5 friends will, anyway – and I intend to keep the name and ongoing project of Swans active in a different form, drawing sporadically on the myriad list of musical cohorts I’m met along the way over the last 30 plus years (including I hope, at times, if they’ll consent, my 5 friends mentioned above) , but the creature, the beast, the monster, the liberating vortex of light and sound that is the 6 of us working in close quarters together over extended periods of time, will cease to exist. Most likely, Swans albums will not appear so fast and furious..."

neilasimpson, Wednesday, 2 September 2015 15:58 (one year ago) Permalink

wow, they sold out already

sleeve, Wednesday, 9 September 2015 15:44 (one year ago) Permalink

one month passes...

White Light From The Mouth Of Infinity and Love Of Life being reissued as a vinyl box (including a CD of rarities & outtakes) and a 3CD set. I've never heard either of these albums, and $23 for the 3CD version is very reasonable.

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Thursday, 15 October 2015 14:10 (one year ago) Permalink

yesss, finally. White Light is particularly great, although a lot of folks may know most of these tracks from the Various Failures 2CD comp

sleeve, Thursday, 15 October 2015 15:03 (one year ago) Permalink

also relevant:

The individual vinyl versions of these albums will also be available after the box set has sold out.

sleeve, Thursday, 15 October 2015 15:04 (one year ago) Permalink

Yeah these are both great, although White Light is by some way superior. I think the songs for both were recorded at the same time and the best stuff got frontloaded on the earlier release. Not sure I would agree with the statement that White Light "is considered the starting point for the second section of Swans’ inimitable history", The Burning World seems to fit that particular bill more closely, although I guess Gira is still not keen on it.

Anyway, I won't be shelling out for this as I still have my copy of the original box :-)

schlep and back trio (anagram), Thursday, 15 October 2015 15:22 (one year ago) Permalink

those albums were recorded separately.

new noise, Thursday, 15 October 2015 15:52 (one year ago) Permalink

well WL is still better

schlep and back trio (anagram), Thursday, 15 October 2015 15:53 (one year ago) Permalink

agreed.

new noise, Thursday, 15 October 2015 16:03 (one year ago) Permalink

According to Allmusic’s Ned Ragget, “Love of Life continues the astounding creative

Who is this one-T impostor?

StanM, Thursday, 15 October 2015 17:58 (one year ago) Permalink

Which Iguess you already nknew, I thought i was reviving a dead thread.
Do wish they'd redo Anonymous Bodies in An Empty Room since i think I prefer that last days of the Children of God band gone folk rock sound.
& Omniscience is interesting too. I heard that GIra meticulously pieced that together from edits of live tracks piece by piece jigsaw like instead of it being an audio verité set like some earlier things might have been. But I think it came across pretty powerfully though I haven't listened to it for ages. Not sure if I still have it or at least a working copy, think mine came from the Dublin Tower water damaged sale so may have been prey to that.

Stevolende, Thursday, 15 October 2015 18:13 (one year ago) Permalink

despite loving C.O.G and seeing that tour (oooh my ears !), this is the reissue i have been waiting years for.

mark e, Thursday, 15 October 2015 18:13 (one year ago) Permalink

Westberg left between Burning World and Whiter Light though he's on live materail from '88 and '89. I think he went off and became a heroin Sheik.
Maybe it's taht that defines the difference between stages.
Could also be that Gira disowned Burning World for years, though he did put out Forever Burned some years ago based on it.

Stevolende, Thursday, 15 October 2015 18:15 (one year ago) Permalink

wasn't it cos of the laswell production that gira hates the burning world album ?

mark e, Thursday, 15 October 2015 19:08 (one year ago) Permalink

Well, my pre-order's in.

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Thursday, 15 October 2015 19:20 (one year ago) Permalink

I got White Light after Various Failures, paid an absurd amount for it but it seemed worth it at the time, not because of the tracks that weren't on Various Failures but because the track sequence brought new life to the songs.
Never bothered to get Love Of Life or anything else from the period, just hoping that Various Failures really was all the really good stuff.

Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, 15 October 2015 19:23 (one year ago) Permalink

ordered this alongside the new dave gahan/soulsavers release (in order to qualify for the free delivery from amazon of course).

i feel very happy with my selection of dark and miserable grooves.

mark e, Monday, 26 October 2015 20:55 (one year ago) Permalink

£13 for the swans 3cd set : cannot complain re that at all.

even if the extras are crap i would have paid a lot more for the main album a few years ago on cd ..

mark e, Monday, 26 October 2015 20:56 (one year ago) Permalink

I can assure you that some of those extras are definitely not crap ("Dream Dream" is one of my favorites from this period)

sleeve, Tuesday, 27 October 2015 14:11 (one year ago) Permalink

I wish they'd just reissue "Ten Songs From Another World" exactly as it was. Sequencing is really great on that, especially the beginning.

dlp9001, Tuesday, 27 October 2015 19:00 (one year ago) Permalink

agreed! other than a vinyl version of "Great Annihilator" and a reissue of Omniscience, I think that's the only other loose end

sleeve, Tuesday, 27 October 2015 19:02 (one year ago) Permalink

And The Burning World, no?

schlep and back trio (anagram), Tuesday, 27 October 2015 19:24 (one year ago) Permalink

reissued on vinyl recently, dunno abt CD

sleeve, Tuesday, 27 October 2015 19:39 (one year ago) Permalink

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forever_Burned 2003 OOP

StanM, Tuesday, 27 October 2015 19:48 (one year ago) Permalink

Has anybody found out if Omniscience is duplicated in tracks on the bonus disc here? Or if the versions are different? Seem to be some of the same titles at least.

Stevolende, Tuesday, 27 October 2015 22:02 (one year ago) Permalink

Some, but far from all.

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Wednesday, 28 October 2015 01:05 (one year ago) Permalink

I had forgotten that The Burning World was reissued by Water in 2012 and remains in print.

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Wednesday, 28 October 2015 01:11 (one year ago) Permalink

one month passes...

Weird question that I never thought of before, but is Jarboe's age per Wikipedia accurate (January 30, 1970)? I never thought of her as particularly young looking, but that would make her like 14 or 15 when she gets involved with Swans. Wondering if that's possible. Gira born in 1954. Kind of hoping that Wiki has her birthdate wrong.

dlp9001, Monday, 7 December 2015 02:30 (one year ago) Permalink

Still waiting for my copy of the White Light/Love set to arrive, but I also just ordered the reissue of The Burning World from Amazon.

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Monday, 7 December 2015 03:17 (one year ago) Permalink

No way is that date of birth accurate.

schlep and back trio (anagram), Monday, 7 December 2015 06:23 (one year ago) Permalink

I'd say it would be about 10 years out. Might be 1960. She was certainly older than me in the mid 80s when i met the band a few times.
Probably still is in fact.

Stevolende, Monday, 7 December 2015 09:04 (one year ago) Permalink

http://www.swans.pair.com/PRESS/int_com.html :

Oh, thats not samples, thats tapes which Jarboe recorded as a little girl, about 12 years old.

The "Her" tape mentions the Grateful Dead playing Piedmont Park "this afternoon" = July 7, 1969.

so... she's from 1957.

/investigative journalism

StanM, Monday, 7 December 2015 10:28 (one year ago) Permalink

but she has chosen not to reveal that officially so um, if you get a cease & desist, it wasn't me :-)

StanM, Monday, 7 December 2015 10:29 (one year ago) Permalink

ok, it's slightly weird not to have the tracklist anywhere in the 3CD box/packaging & to have to go look it up online but anyway (the booklet only contains the lyrics and "#5, #9, #13 etc originally appeared on World of Skin" etc, not what those tracks might be)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Light_from_the_Mouth_of_Infinity -> "2015 remaster version" for the differences
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_of_Life_%28album%29 -> "background" and "2015 bonus tracks" for CD 2 & 3 details

StanM, Wednesday, 16 December 2015 17:45 (eleven months ago) Permalink

my head hurts now

sleeve, Wednesday, 16 December 2015 17:55 (eleven months ago) Permalink

can someone tell me the current status of swans song "black hole man"? i have a live recording that's like 19 min long and i was wondering if there was a not-live version of it.

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Wednesday, 16 December 2015 18:23 (eleven months ago) Permalink

No, the only officially released version at the moment is on The Gate, live, as the second part of "Bring The Sun" (28:16).
(Maybe they'll record a studio version for the 2016 album, I don't know)

StanM, Wednesday, 16 December 2015 18:32 (eleven months ago) Permalink

hope so!

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Wednesday, 16 December 2015 18:35 (eleven months ago) Permalink

two months pass...

Larkin Grimm has accused Gira of rape.

https://t.co/iO2IF5x1ZX

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Friday, 26 February 2016 00:44 (nine months ago) Permalink

Dud

albvivertine, Friday, 26 February 2016 01:21 (nine months ago) Permalink

ugh

jmm, Friday, 26 February 2016 03:06 (nine months ago) Permalink

Don't know if legit:

StanM, Friday, 26 February 2016 04:16 (nine months ago) Permalink

(Me = not me, obv, just found this being linked to somewhere else)

StanM, Friday, 26 February 2016 04:17 (nine months ago) Permalink

Larkin has commented further to Pitchfork:

http://pitchfork.com/news/63780-swans-michael-gira-accused-of-rape-by-former-collaborator-larkin-grimm/

I am not in this for vengeance. I am not angry. I do not want Michael Gira to have his life destroyed. If one in four or five women has been raped, we have to acknowledge the possibility that one in five men might be rapists. What are we going to do with them all? Send them to jail for 10 years and cut off their dicks? NO. It is the whole culture that has to change. We have created this epidemic of harassment and disrespect and violence together. We have to end it together.

Ned Raggett, Friday, 26 February 2016 04:50 (nine months ago) Permalink

I believe I will stay off the internet for a few days until this whole thing blows over

Wimmels, Friday, 26 February 2016 05:01 (nine months ago) Permalink

Gira has responded.

https://www.facebook.com/mgira/posts/10201368018239159

Ned Raggett, Friday, 26 February 2016 05:14 (nine months ago) Permalink

well that got ugly fast

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Friday, 26 February 2016 05:24 (nine months ago) Permalink

Made mistake of reading comments to his post.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Friday, 26 February 2016 05:30 (nine months ago) Permalink

And for fucks sake, has anyone listened to his songs speaking out against rape??!??
Like · 4 · 13 mins
Dennis Mandarin
Dennis Mandarin EXAAAACTLY
Like · 1 · 13 mins
Dennis Mandarin
Dennis Mandarin Anyone who believes this probably doesn't listen to swans.

^^^^ "but his best friend is black!"

just1n3, Friday, 26 February 2016 05:53 (nine months ago) Permalink

yeah that one stood out

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Friday, 26 February 2016 05:58 (nine months ago) Permalink

fuck what a depressing story

François Pitchforkian (NickB), Friday, 26 February 2016 07:22 (nine months ago) Permalink

Gira's wife reacts as well

https://www.facebook.com/coveredwithstars/posts/10206691239732330

StanM, Friday, 26 February 2016 08:49 (nine months ago) Permalink

god what a mess

François Pitchforkian (NickB), Friday, 26 February 2016 11:15 (nine months ago) Permalink

Damn :-(

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 26 February 2016 13:10 (nine months ago) Permalink

kinda wondering what the hell this "proof" is gonna be

frogbs, Friday, 26 February 2016 13:40 (nine months ago) Permalink

They're claiming it's emails the woman sent to him through the years that show a pattern of vindictiveness and erratic behavior.

spirited ai weiwei (Treeship), Friday, 26 February 2016 13:49 (nine months ago) Permalink

Obv that's not "proof" of anything. This is going to be a long, ugly debacle.

spirited ai weiwei (Treeship), Friday, 26 February 2016 13:54 (nine months ago) Permalink

I believe I will stay off the internet for a few days until this whole thing blows over

This was the second instance of exactly this kind of announcement on FB I saw this week (curiously enough both involving NY musicians), and would be very surprised if it was the last. And yeah, keep away from the comments if you don't want to get angry.

Dominique, Friday, 26 February 2016 13:58 (nine months ago) Permalink

xpost

Yeah, reading Jennifer Gira's post I was thinking that even if that pattern of behavior is true, it wouldn't exactly be inconsistent with what Grimm is saying. "Traumatized victim behaves erratically, threatens revenge" is not an unlikely scenario.

A nationally known air show announcer/personality (tipsy mothra), Friday, 26 February 2016 14:00 (nine months ago) Permalink

"actual rapist accuses victim of being mentally unstable & bent on revenge as soon as the truth comes out" is not an unlikely scenario either

crüt, Friday, 26 February 2016 14:01 (nine months ago) Permalink

otm

A nationally known air show announcer/personality (tipsy mothra), Friday, 26 February 2016 14:04 (nine months ago) Permalink

yup

François Pitchforkian (NickB), Friday, 26 February 2016 14:06 (nine months ago) Permalink

the super-gross victim-blaming response is maybe more distasteful than the actual allegations, which were (despite the graphic detail) so couched in qualifications as to be almost polite ('I heard he stopped drinking, so hopefully he doesn't behave like that anymore' = !!)

Posts found in a bottle by (bernard snowy), Friday, 26 February 2016 14:09 (nine months ago) Permalink

Oh I don't know about that the actual allegations are pretty gross (esp. the pattern of harassment).

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Friday, 26 February 2016 14:19 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp ... not that I'm tryna write a thinkpiece about it or anything, but it feels like there's this weird double-bind characterizing our particular cultural moment: people assume that the "rape allegation as character assassination" narrative still makes sense, even as we try to move towards a culture in which the stigma of "being a rapist" is, if not lessened, then certainly different*... in which case, the real crime** is being tethered to an outdated mentality which demands smearing the accuser to protect one's good name

*: because keeping that stigma intact allows us to think of rape as a rare occurrence, perpetrated by insane people
**: "the real crime" = in the eyes of the gossipy internet-driven public sphere that passes character judgments -- obviously from the standpoint of the legal system, the real crime is still rape

Posts found in a bottle by (bernard snowy), Friday, 26 February 2016 14:21 (nine months ago) Permalink

anyway, that's the last I'll say on this subject. I'm on the verge of tears listening to The Seer right now. it's been a tough week.

Posts found in a bottle by (bernard snowy), Friday, 26 February 2016 14:23 (nine months ago) Permalink

the super-gross victim-blaming response is maybe more distasteful than the actual allegations, which were (despite the graphic detail) so couched in qualifications as to be almost polite ('I heard he stopped drinking, so hopefully he doesn't behave like that anymore' = !!)

― Posts found in a bottle by (bernard snowy)

this was my reaction as well, the stark contrast between Grimm's clear-eyed, very compassionate take on things and Gira's ugly defensive hatefulness is so jarring.

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Friday, 26 February 2016 15:05 (nine months ago) Permalink

P4K headline on this comes down heavily on Gira's side of things. "Swans' Michael Gira Calls Rape Accusations by Former Collaborator Larkin Grimm a "Slanderous Lie".

Position Position, Friday, 26 February 2016 15:15 (nine months ago) Permalink

Whether they realize it or not, most people seem to pick a side, it's fascinating. Based on preconceptions, artistic achievement, language skills, sometimes based on the photo that accompanies an article.

StanM, Friday, 26 February 2016 15:22 (nine months ago) Permalink

And I'm guessing often based on sex. My question with accusations like this is always the same, "why would she lie?" I realize that sometimes people falsely accuse other people for a variety of reasons, and that unless all the facts are known, we can't ever really be sure who's being truthful. But unless you're clinically narcissistic and a sociopath, how could lying about something like this be worth the trouble?

Dominique, Friday, 26 February 2016 15:38 (nine months ago) Permalink

kinda wondering what the hell this "proof" is gonna be

― frogbs, Friday, February 26, 2016 8:40 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

it's not proof she have, it's PROOF

Van Horn Street, Friday, 26 February 2016 15:41 (nine months ago) Permalink

But unless you're clinically narcissistic and a sociopath, how could lying about something like this be worth the trouble?

It seems insane for someone to do that, but it is not unprecedented.

kornrulez6969, Friday, 26 February 2016 15:49 (nine months ago) Permalink

My question with accusations like this is always the same, "why would she lie?" I realize that sometimes people falsely accuse other people for a variety of reasons, and that unless all the facts are known, we can't ever really be sure who's being truthful. But unless you're clinically narcissistic and a sociopath, how could lying about something like this be worth the trouble?

I am not expressing any endorsement of Gira's or Grimm's "side" of this story in what I'm about to say. False accusations of rape when the two people are on a more or less socially equal level are extremely rare. However, there is a subset of accusations leveled at famous men by non-famous women. David Bowie was accused of rape in 1987; the charges were rejected by a grand jury. Conor Oberst was falsely accused, as the link above reveals. I'm sure there are other examples but I'm not about to go looking for them.

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Friday, 26 February 2016 16:07 (nine months ago) Permalink

My question with accusations like this is always the same, "why would she lie?"

In this case, I'll give it a shot, if you'll allow me to play devil's advocate for a moment (because I have no more idea who is telling the truth than you do): a person desperate to be famous at any cost accuses a public figure of the most despicable, inexcusable, heinous crime there is. Hours later, said public figure has been tried and convicted by the internet, while Pitchfork, Spin, Stereogum, etc all lead with headlines bearing the previously-forgotten-by-almost-everyone name "Larkin Grimm."

I realize that probably reads like some of the disgusting comments section talk you refer to, and while I am loath to even advance such a theory, I mention it because I also don't feel comfortable with the idea that someone can be transformed into a pariah based on a Facebook post. I also wouldn't have felt comfortable commenting on this if Jennifer Gira hadn't spoken out first. I would sooner stay out of it entirely than align myself with an idiotic lynch mob of starstruck dudes blaming the victim. If it happened, it's fucked up and MG should suffer the consequences. But what if it didn't?

Wimmels, Friday, 26 February 2016 16:14 (nine months ago) Permalink

I guess I put that scenario in the "sociopathic or too narcissistic to think clearly" file, which other than revenge for something that nobody has yet made public, is the only scenario I see (other than believing the accuser) that explains it. I mean, I HOPE it's not true, for the each of their sakes, but my gut feeling is that there are a lot more people who never report things that really did happen than there are false accusers.

Dominique, Friday, 26 February 2016 16:23 (nine months ago) Permalink

The instances of women lying about being raped are well below the instances of men getting away with rape. It might be the case that famous people are more frequently falsely accused, but they are also more likely to have entitlement and power issues that make them think they're allowed to do anything they want.

Both of these posts sadly accurate:

reading Jennifer Gira's post I was thinking that even if that pattern of behavior is true, it wouldn't exactly be inconsistent with what Grimm is saying. "Traumatized victim behaves erratically, threatens revenge" is not an unlikely scenario.

― A nationally known air show announcer/personality (tipsy mothra), Friday, February 26, 2016 2:00 PM (1 hour ago)

"actual rapist accuses victim of being mentally unstable & bent on revenge as soon as the truth comes out" is not an unlikely scenario either

― crüt, Friday, February 26, 2016 2:01 PM (1 hour ago)

The thing that stuck out most from Jennifer Gira's response was that she seemed to be implying that she had been *really* raped, because it was by a stranger. Am I reading that wrong? Because you're wayyyyy more likely to be raped by someone you know.

emil.y, Friday, 26 February 2016 16:28 (nine months ago) Permalink

The instances of women lying about being raped are well below the instances of men getting away with rape. It might be the case that famous people are more frequently falsely accused, but they are also more likely to have entitlement and power issues that make them think they're allowed to do anything they want.

Both these statements are true. And with that, I withdraw, as I have absolutely no firsthand knowledge of this situation.

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Friday, 26 February 2016 16:32 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp Absolutely. But a false accusation does more harm than good for people who have legitimately been victimized and only encourages unthinking people to continue to place the burden of proof on the victim while all the while looking for holes in her story, citing precedent (as top man did above)

Wimmels, Friday, 26 February 2016 16:33 (nine months ago) Permalink

I too am withdrawing from this conversation (here and elsewhere), and hope it gets resolved, one way or another.

Wimmels, Friday, 26 February 2016 16:33 (nine months ago) Permalink

Actually, scratch my last paragraph. While I stand by the "you're more likely to be raped by someone you know" element, the last thing I want to do is end up scrutinising another woman's trauma.

emil.y, Friday, 26 February 2016 16:34 (nine months ago) Permalink

more likely than not, coming out as a rape victim, you are going to be a victim of character assassination and other forms of intense bullying. it's not that you have to be a sociopathic or nihilsit to lie about these things, it's that you have to be completely unaware of how the process of coming out will be painful. part of how rape culture works is that there is basically zero benefit to post things like Larkin Grimm posted.

Van Horn Street, Friday, 26 February 2016 16:43 (nine months ago) Permalink

None of us here know the truth though so it seems wrong to comment or take a side until much more is known. Its horrible and I hope the truth comes out - whatever that may be.

That should not be read as taking any particular side. It also means avoid comments on the story reported elsewhere.

Cosmic Slop, Friday, 26 February 2016 16:54 (nine months ago) Permalink

Glad to see the this thread turning respectful to victims.

Just wanted to chime in that very few rape accusations are false. And that no career has every been helped by falsely accusing someone of rape.

The two examples of musicians being falsely accused up thread (if indeed the accusations were false) weren't accused by aspiring musicians, and in no way did the accusers benefit from it. Pretending that only the accused gets tried and convicted by the Internet is disingenuous and harmful.

There's no more need on the Internet for people to play devil's advocate against rape victims ever again, I'm sure of that.

Travisssss, Friday, 26 February 2016 16:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

I linked this elsewhere but this new article is deeply, highly relevant right this second.

http://www.bkmag.com/2016/02/26/aftermath-and-recovery-heathcliff-berru-speaks-and-reporting-on-sexual-assault-in-the-music-industry/

Ned Raggett, Friday, 26 February 2016 17:03 (nine months ago) Permalink

The problem is, partly because the law is shit at dealing with this, partly because usually both sides stick to their stories completely, it is highly unlikely that any *objective truth* will ever be known. Even if someone gets jailed for it, their supporters will still keep on with the idea that it was consensual or not "real rape". Or, more commonly, the man doesn't get jailed because of lack of evidence, but lack of evidence doesn't mean it didn't happen.

It is entirely up to the individual what they do with the information laid out for them. I still rate Repulsion as one of the greatest films ever made. I still listen to [insert a musician I love who has done a terrible thing here, I actually can't think of one but there are bound to be many]. It is easier when someone is in the past, much easier when they are dead, to elide over their faults. It is incredibly hard when they are still active.

Personally my response is to believe everyone who comes out with a story like this, but look at what can be done to remedy the fact that it is so widespread rather than concentrate on the individual perpetrator. The problem with this is that it is both easy and just to punish a perpetrator, and it is hard to the point of impossible to know what to do about society.

emil.y, Friday, 26 February 2016 17:11 (nine months ago) Permalink

Pretending that only the accused gets tried and convicted by the Internet is disingenuous and harmful.

There's no more need on the Internet for people to play devil's advocate against rape victims ever again, I'm sure of that.

― Travisssss, Friday, February 26, 2016 4:59 PM (11 minutes ago)

OTM OTM OTM

emil.y, Friday, 26 February 2016 17:12 (nine months ago) Permalink

dud

am0n, Friday, 26 February 2016 17:27 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp But doesn't that way of thinking create a "guilty until proven innocent" scenario? That's a legitimate question, not a rhetorical one. I do consider myself a feminist and an advocate and want to better understand why the rules don't apply here.

Wimmels, Friday, 26 February 2016 17:29 (nine months ago) Permalink

we're not throwing michael gira in jail

crüt, Friday, 26 February 2016 17:30 (nine months ago) Permalink

If I told you that someone stole my car, would you believe me? Or would you come up with convoluted theories about how I just want attention or that I dumped it somewhere for the insurance?

This is a terrible analogy, I realise, but for all the men who cry "innocent until proven guilty", I would like to point out that people believe victims of crime all the time. It is this crime that they doubt, this crime that they hound women for speaking out about.

emil.y, Friday, 26 February 2016 17:39 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp But doesn't that way of thinking create a "guilty until proven innocent" scenario? That's a legitimate question, not a rhetorical one. I do consider myself a feminist and an advocate and want to better understand why the rules don't apply here.

― Wimmels, Friday, February 26, 2016 12:29 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm

flappy bird, Friday, 26 February 2016 17:42 (nine months ago) Permalink

well it's pretty clear that "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't work for something like 98% of rape cases, when it's so painfully clear that the system has failed it's really NAGL to suggest it as a reasonable option here.

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Friday, 26 February 2016 17:46 (nine months ago) Permalink

great posts emil.y.

xp

sam jax sax jam (Jordan), Friday, 26 February 2016 17:47 (nine months ago) Permalink

also, Grimm was very clear that as an anarchist and prison abolitionist she is not interested in a court case, which I respect. all she wanted was an apology - maybe y'all should actually read what she wrote?

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Friday, 26 February 2016 17:48 (nine months ago) Permalink

walking away from thread for a while before I get really mad

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Friday, 26 February 2016 17:49 (nine months ago) Permalink

If I told you that someone stole my car, would you believe me? Or would you come up with convoluted theories about how I just want attention or that I dumped it somewhere for the insurance?

Yes, of course I'd believe you, but that analogy doesn't work here. If instead of "someone stole my car" you told me "(specific person x) just stole my car!," I'd probably have to ask a few follow up questions before rounding up a posse.

Wimmels, Friday, 26 February 2016 17:52 (nine months ago) Permalink

Even, "someone stole my car" is subject to question. Sorry, but people lie about all sorts of things, all the time. That applies to everyone in this story. The idea that we can somehow guess who's lying and who's telling the truth is insane. Unless you have proof, you don't know. I hate speculative conversations like this.

If someone said that their car was stolen, I'd have no opinion at all until I looked into the details.

I have no idea what happened. Probably nobody else does, other than the parties involved. Threads like this are like wondering about trees falling in the forest.

dlp9001, Friday, 26 February 2016 18:02 (nine months ago) Permalink

If I told you that someone stole my car, would you believe me? Or would you come up with convoluted theories about how I just want attention or that I dumped it somewhere for the insurance?

This is a terrible analogy, I realise, but for all the men who cry "innocent until proven guilty", I would like to point out that people believe victims of crime all the time. It is this crime that they doubt, this crime that they hound women for speaking out about.

― emil.y, Friday, February 26, 2016 12:39 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this is amazing.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Friday, 26 February 2016 18:10 (nine months ago) Permalink

Whether they realize it or not, most people seem to pick a side, it's fascinating. Based on preconceptions, artistic achievement, language skills, sometimes based on the photo that accompanies an article.

― StanM, Friday, February 26, 2016 10:22 AM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

nah fuck that. the only "side" that matters is the truth. it's fascinating!

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Friday, 26 February 2016 18:12 (nine months ago) Permalink

As far as people believing crime victims all the time, I'd suggest looking into allegations of abuse by prisoners. People don't believe victims of crime all the time at all. That is simply wrong.

dlp9001, Friday, 26 February 2016 18:16 (nine months ago) Permalink

also, Grimm was very clear that as an anarchist and prison abolitionist she is not interested in a court case, which I respect. all she wanted was an apology - maybe y'all should actually read what she wrote?

― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Friday, February 26, 2016 12:48 PM (35 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

crüt, Friday, 26 February 2016 18:25 (nine months ago) Permalink

that article that Ned posted upthread is in fact really good.

While Potiker was surprised and hopeful about the way this story unfolded, with other women backing each other up, she cautions that coming forward publicly won’t be helpful for all women.

“We do have to remember that some of these survivors were pretty high profile, so this isn’t a one-size-fits-all solution,” she said. “‘Random girl with no Internet following accuses music publicist of sexual misconduct’ isn’t a great headline. For women who don’t have a big social media following and support system, a tweet about abuse might do more harm than good. Social media can be a platform where we reach a lot of people, and make sure our stories are made public on our own terms and in our own words, but the major thing to remember is that coming forward isn’t an option for every woman. We have to make sure not to make share your stories the rallying cry. We cannot imply that women who don’t feel comfortable sharing their stories should feel guilty for not doing so.”

One of the most common responses survivors of sexual assault face when they come forward is the question of why they don’t report the incident to the police. In some cases, reporting the assault can be just as traumatic as the initial experience.

“It’s very individual, when you report to the police, what kind of response you will get,” Chaiet said. Good training for police is critical,” Chaiet said. “People of all backgrounds have shared with me that the reporting of the crime was an awful process. They are challenged, judged, disbelieved, and even turned away from making a report. So it’s always the victim’s choice what to do.”

Even if survivors do choose to go to the police, the legal system itself rarely convicts those accused of rape or sexual assault. RAINN reports that only 3% of rapists ever see a conviction, and the victims who accuse their abusers often suffer even more after the legal system fails them.

sam jax sax jam (Jordan), Friday, 26 February 2016 18:37 (nine months ago) Permalink

also I have never heard Swans.

sam jax sax jam (Jordan), Friday, 26 February 2016 18:37 (nine months ago) Permalink

it's fascinating!

― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau)

Hey. Don't.

StanM, Friday, 26 February 2016 18:51 (nine months ago) Permalink

In response to a few different points being brought up:

People tend to be more skeptical of victims when they are marginilzed groups of people, like women (and like the abused prisoners you mentioned, dlp9001).

Think of all the stories about bands having their gear stolen. Why don't those stories ever erupt into, "the band is lying to gain publicity" arguments? Just be mindful of biases we have toward certain crimes.

If people are concerned with having all the facts before judging, let's at least continue to be sensitive towards victims until we do have all the facts.

Travisssss, Friday, 26 February 2016 18:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

well I think dlp is right there, there's a difference between saying "I was victimized" and "person X did this to me". if someone says "I was raped 10 years ago" I don't think people are going to run to discredit them, but once you bring in the name of someone who is famous and sort of irrationally loved by thousands of people, that's when the mental gymnastics start coming out.

frogbs, Friday, 26 February 2016 19:07 (nine months ago) Permalink

interested in hearing more about the Thomas Sayers Ellis incident. I'm usually pretty plugged into literary circles but that incident seems to ahve been eclipsed by the Gira allegation. So what happened between Ellis and his girlfriend in front of all these people? And what did he say about Grimm onstage that was so humiliating? Any reports?

akm, Friday, 26 February 2016 19:26 (nine months ago) Permalink

Food for thought:

http://feministing.com/2014/05/30/an-open-letter-to-privileged-people-who-play-devils-advocate/

dc, Friday, 26 February 2016 19:37 (nine months ago) Permalink

enough with the fucking open letters already

akm, Friday, 26 February 2016 19:41 (nine months ago) Permalink

You know who you are. You are that white guy in an Ethnic Studies class who’s exploring the idea that poor people might have babies to stay on welfare.

i am? news to me.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Friday, 26 February 2016 19:45 (nine months ago) Permalink

Think of all the stories about bands having their gear stolen. Why don't those stories ever erupt into, "the band is lying to gain publicity" arguments? Just be mindful of biases we have toward certain crimes.

If people are concerned with having all the facts before judging, let's at least continue to be sensitive towards victims until we do have all the facts.

― Travisssss, Friday, February 26, 2016 1:59 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think anyone is being insensitive toward the (alleged - see what i did there?) victim at all and I'm actually pretty relieved that this thread has remained as civil as it has. I'm eager to hear people's opinions about this (beyond Gira / Grimm) because I think these discussions are important.

Anyway, Travisssss, your analogy also falls flat. When a band gets their gear stolen, their gear is gone. Short of an brilliant, elaborate scheme in which they get trusted friends to temporarily "hide" all the guitars and amps and keyboards and laptops that were ostensibly stolen, the fact is: band had gear, band no longer has gear. You don't see how this situation is different?

Wimmels, Friday, 26 February 2016 20:16 (nine months ago) Permalink

from the article, i thought it was worth posting here

http://d1o2xrel38nv1n.cloudfront.net/files/2014/05/2014-04-10-pltm196-1.jpg

Van Horn Street, Friday, 26 February 2016 20:19 (nine months ago) Permalink

Wow, that's pretty presumptuous. On several counts.

All I'm advocating is letting things play out and examining facts before passing the sort of judgment that could potentially destroy someone's life. I don't think that's a very outrageous position to take.

Wimmels, Friday, 26 February 2016 20:26 (nine months ago) Permalink

most rape accusations are truthful
a few are lies
Michael Gira is probably a rapist.
But we can't know for sure.
Lock thread.

Cornelius Pardew (jim in glasgow), Friday, 26 February 2016 20:30 (nine months ago) Permalink

^

spirited ai weiwei (Treeship), Friday, 26 February 2016 20:33 (nine months ago) Permalink

Those who are pointing at Gira's lyrics as some kind of smoking gun should avail yourselves to the concept of "poetic license." Yes, the man already has a something of a nefarious reputation, but that doesn't make him automatically guilty. Secondly, those who are moved by the passion of Ms. Grimm's original accusations should read Jennifer Gira's equally impassioned retort.

Alex in NYC, Friday, 26 February 2016 20:48 (nine months ago) Permalink

^

Wimmels, Friday, 26 February 2016 20:52 (nine months ago) Permalink

thank god y'all are here to defend poor michael gira

HYPERLINK TO RAP GENIUS (BradNelson), Friday, 26 February 2016 20:55 (nine months ago) Permalink

Nobody is doing that here xp

odysseus (imago), Friday, 26 February 2016 20:56 (nine months ago) Permalink

Those who are pointing at Gira's lyrics as some kind of smoking gun should avail yourselves to the concept of "poetic license." Yes, the man already has a something of a nefarious reputation, but that doesn't make him automatically guilty. Secondly, those who are moved by the passion of Ms. Grimm's original accusations should read Jennifer Gira's equally impassioned retort.

Yeah

I expect Michael Gira, like Conor Oberst, will sue. So:

I too am withdrawing from this conversation (here and elsewhere), and hope it gets resolved, one way or another.

Allen (etaeoe), Friday, 26 February 2016 21:03 (nine months ago) Permalink

Just to be clear, I wrote that "I expect (he) will sue" because attorneys were mentioned in one of the Facebook posts. I have no opinion about whether he should.

Allen (etaeoe), Friday, 26 February 2016 21:42 (nine months ago) Permalink

Secondly, those who are moved by the passion of Ms. Grimm's original accusations should read Jennifer Gira's equally impassioned retort.

Wait you found it moving?

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Friday, 26 February 2016 22:35 (nine months ago) Permalink

Horrible story. Hopefully the truth comes out one day. Even though I'm sure 99% of the time, the person accused of rape actually performed the crime, sometimes they're not. Cases like the Brian Banks one come to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Banks_(American_football)

Rod Steel (musicfanatic), Friday, 26 February 2016 23:44 (nine months ago) Permalink

"sometimes"

lute bro (brimstead), Friday, 26 February 2016 23:45 (nine months ago) Permalink

emil.y, crut, sleeve massively OTM. the rest of you should be barred from using the internet.

lute bro (brimstead), Friday, 26 February 2016 23:50 (nine months ago) Permalink

Travissss too, great posts.

lute bro (brimstead), Friday, 26 February 2016 23:51 (nine months ago) Permalink

the rest of you should be barred from using the internet.

― lute bro (brimstead), Friday, February 26, 2016 6:50 PM (37 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

so much for the thread remaining civil

Wimmels, Saturday, 27 February 2016 00:29 (nine months ago) Permalink

it stopped being civil when you started "playing" devil's advocate

lute bro (brimstead), Saturday, 27 February 2016 00:30 (nine months ago) Permalink

If people are concerned with having all the facts before judging, let's at least continue to be sensitive towards victims until we do have all the facts.

― Travisssss, Friday, February 26, 2016 1:59 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I don't think anyone is being insensitive toward the (alleged - see what i did there?) victim at all

maybe english isn't your first language, but he was talking about "victims of sexual abuse" in general, not the specific victim of this case.

lute bro (brimstead), Saturday, 27 February 2016 00:33 (nine months ago) Permalink

thank you for standing up for us men, though, we really need the help.

lute bro (brimstead), Saturday, 27 February 2016 00:34 (nine months ago) Permalink

"I believe the woman" is really a pretty safe/reasonable starting position, Gira's heightened, panicky response compared to the very measured, considered statements of hers that I've read didn't do anything to challenge my baseline assumption (much as I would love to not tarnish my warm feelings towards Swans)

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Saturday, 27 February 2016 00:43 (nine months ago) Permalink

"I have no idea what happened," is probably an even safer and more reasonable starting position. "Nothing good is going to come from this thread henceforth," is another one.

dlp9001, Saturday, 27 February 2016 00:51 (nine months ago) Permalink

I don't really get the "measured tone v. panicked tone, AWFULLY suspicious" thing.

circa1916, Saturday, 27 February 2016 01:05 (nine months ago) Permalink

yes, I think that the allegation is more likely to be true than not, but idg why a 'heightened, panicky response' further convinces Simon H that Gira is guilty - it's not like you'd expect someone being falsely accused of rape to be relaxed about the situation, even if the accusation was made in a 'measured, considered' way, surely

soref, Saturday, 27 February 2016 01:10 (nine months ago) Permalink

I admit it might be partially because it realllly reminds me of the tone taken by Jian Ghomeshi in his initial FB statement - going straight to apparent victim-blaming/shaming pretty much immediately

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Saturday, 27 February 2016 01:19 (nine months ago) Permalink

Just to be clear, I wrote that "I expect (he) will sue" because attorneys were mentioned in one of the Facebook posts. I have no opinion about whether he should.

Let's just say for a second -- yes, I know, it's a HILARIOUS thought -- that he's innocent. In that purely hypothetical instance, wouldn't you think it he'd be entitled to legal action?

Alex in NYC, Saturday, 27 February 2016 01:37 (nine months ago) Permalink

Wait you found it moving?

Moving as in evoking strong feelings, moron.

Alex in NYC, Saturday, 27 February 2016 01:42 (nine months ago) Permalink

Come on, none of us have a clue what happened. And since it's unlikely that there would be criminal proceedings against Michael Gira - given the length of time which has passed since the alleged event took place, not to mention the apparent lack of external witnesses present in Larkin Grimm's account - it comes down to only a few real possibilities.

1) We never know the truth for certain.

2) The "proof" Jennifer Gira mentions is credible enough to dispel the validity of Larkin Grimm's claims against Michael Gira.

3) That Michael Gira makes some sort of formal statement acknowledging Grimm's claims.

4) Enough alleged victims with credible stories come out against Michael Gira, à la Bill Cosby, to give substance to Grimm's claims.

5) Grimm admits she made the whole thing up.

Beyond wishing for justice for whoever is the damaged party, what more can you say?

crustaceanrebelisback, Saturday, 27 February 2016 01:48 (nine months ago) Permalink

thank you for standing up for us men, though, we really need the help.

― lute bro (brimstead), Friday, February 26, 2016 7:34 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

When was I doing this, exactly?

Wimmels, Saturday, 27 February 2016 01:56 (nine months ago) Permalink

we're constantly bathed in seconhand narrative. i tend to be suspicious of the vast majority of it. applies in situations like this to both accusations of crime and protestations of innocence.

is michael gira guilty of rape? hell if i know. it's clearly none of my damn business.

somewhere btwn Gabriel Garcia Marquez and early Evel Knievel guy (contenderizer), Saturday, 27 February 2016 02:00 (nine months ago) Permalink

As somebody who has spent money on Mr. Gira's recordings, it is quite literally my business.

Having read the three posts by the three parties, I'm certainly not going to buy any of his material in the future, and I plan on selling off my post-1998 Swans material (totally subjective cut-off).

I've been down this whole road before in activist communities, and I've made the mistake of splitting hairs and being all "BUT WHAT IF..." before. If it's bullshit, it will become obvious in time. For now, just believe the women. And guess what, you can believe a woman's account without demonizing the man.

gonna walk away again here.

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Saturday, 27 February 2016 04:02 (nine months ago) Permalink

^^^^^^

HYPERLINK TO RAP GENIUS (BradNelson), Saturday, 27 February 2016 04:30 (nine months ago) Permalink

Well, guess what everyone!

http://pitchfork.com/news/63799-swans-michael-gira-issues-statement-on-larkin-grimm-rape-accusations/

Eight years ago, while I was still married to my first wife, Larkin Grimm and I headed towards a consensual romantic moment that fortunately was not consummated. As she wrote in her recent social media postings about that night, I said to her, "this doesn't feel right," and abruptly but completely our only intimate encounter ended. It was an awkward mistake.
Larkin may regret, as I certainly do, that the ill-advised tryst went even that far, but now, as then, I hold her in high esteem for her music and her courage as an artist.
I long ago apologized to my wife and family and told them the truth about this incident. My hope is that Larkin finds peace with the demons that have been darkening her soul since long before she and I ever met.

And it was a 'slanderous lie' last night.

Ned Raggett, Saturday, 27 February 2016 04:41 (nine months ago) Permalink

My hope is that Larkin finds peace with the demons that have been darkening her soul since long before she and I ever met.

yeah, wow. the whole thing is kind of weasely but this part especially.

spirited ai weiwei (Treeship), Saturday, 27 February 2016 04:45 (nine months ago) Permalink

not kind of, really. it seems like he is admitting it happened -- he doesn't refute any part of her claim -- but trying to recast it in this very passive voice type of way.

spirited ai weiwei (Treeship), Saturday, 27 February 2016 04:46 (nine months ago) Permalink

yikes. i guess he's "evolved" on this issue, then?

The instances of women lying about being raped are well below the instances of men getting away with rape.

there’s really no reliable data on either thing — how many men get away with rape, how many women lie about rape— so I’m not sure how anyone can make this statement in confidence.

people’s opinions on specific incidents — which have no necessary relation to larger trends— seem to depend on what one finds more "believable"— that lots of men are capable of rape, or that lots of women are capable of lying about rape. in every case this is deeply embedded in ideology, personal experience, various cognitive biases, etc.

wizzz! (amateurist), Saturday, 27 February 2016 04:57 (nine months ago) Permalink

er, not "in confidence" but rather "with confidence"

wizzz! (amateurist), Saturday, 27 February 2016 04:57 (nine months ago) Permalink

My hope is that Larkin finds peace with the demons that have been darkening her soul since long before she and I ever met.

yeah, i'm really sure this is his "hope"

wizzz! (amateurist), Saturday, 27 February 2016 04:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

gira is all christlike and shit

wizzz! (amateurist), Saturday, 27 February 2016 04:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

gira was a hero to most, but he never meant shit to me you see

bernard snowy, Saturday, 27 February 2016 05:29 (nine months ago) Permalink

I am thankful that Michael made a statement so transparently abusive that I feel unmixed resolve in tossing out the terrible Swans records I never bought

got a long list of ILXors (fgti), Saturday, 27 February 2016 05:39 (nine months ago) Permalink

Having read the three posts by the three parties, I'm certainly not going to buy any of his material in the future, and I plan on selling off my post-1998 Swans material (totally subjective cut-off).

― the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Saturday, 27 February 2016 04:02 (2 hours ago) Permalink

Western® with Bacon Flavor, Saturday, 27 February 2016 06:21 (nine months ago) Permalink

"it's a slanderous lie!"
"ok some of it was a lie"
"well... none of it was really a lie"
"actually... i did worse/more stuff that you don't even know about yet"

just1n3, Saturday, 27 February 2016 06:40 (nine months ago) Permalink

as if we haven't seen rapists follow this same pattern before.

it's disturbing to see so many comments from sexual assault survivors - not just jennifer gira - assuming that larkin is lying and that they have experienced 'real' 'true' rape.

just1n3, Saturday, 27 February 2016 06:42 (nine months ago) Permalink

In her case you'd have to say coming to accept her husband might be one of the rapists would be such a horrible thing to accept that any amou t of psychological twisting about of others experinces would be easier to cope with

like Uber, but for underpants (James Morrison), Saturday, 27 February 2016 06:51 (nine months ago) Permalink

i wouldn't be surprised if gira really believes that she consented, bc consent is such a gray area to a lot of ppl, but the problem is her telling him straight up that she did not consent and him refusing to acknowledge that. maybe if he had, they could have had a really useful conversation and things wouldn't have come to this.

and that's the point i get from larkin - a lot of men (and women) could make a serious mistake like this (of not seeking enthusiastic consent), it doesn't make them a monster; more than the rape itself, the aftermath is what was most damaging bc of his refusal to see what he had done. and that characterizes much of rape culture in general.

just1n3, Saturday, 27 February 2016 07:01 (nine months ago) Permalink

^^^ just1n3 you are doing a much better job of articulating what I was trying to upthread -- seems like larkin tried/is trying v.hard to meet him halfway on this, & he just refused to back down ('rape is monstrous + I am not a monster = that weren't no rape')

bernard snowy, Saturday, 27 February 2016 13:05 (nine months ago) Permalink

I mean I hate to be flip but everybody makes mistakes, right?

Men go crazy about "defending my good name" or w/e because they feel there is a bright line between themselves & the wrong kind of men, the men who rape, which line cannot be crossed without forever losing a part of their humanity; but in reality there is a thick fog, men cross the line all the time, knowingly or not, hoping that nobody sees them coming back; & "good name" is just another trump card dudes hold, which can be used to shut down the subsequent inquiry into what, exactly, they were doing over there on that particularly foggy night.

If one accepts (as one should) the basic feminist premise that power is distributed unequally between individuals in our society, & further accepts the notion that unpunished sexual assaults are widespread (especially in places like the music industry, where the kind of organizing & institutional oversight that could potentially push back against the boys' club do not exist), it seems to follow that one should tread lightest where he feels most unassailable. The very fact that "explanations" are so easily found & believed, and above all believed by us as we speak them, is an index which leads back to that same fundamental power imbalance.

bernard snowy, Saturday, 27 February 2016 13:39 (nine months ago) Permalink

... now if you'll excuse me I have to relisten to this song while soaking in the bitter irony

I'll kill that man, I'll kill that man
I'll hunt him down & make him understand
What he's done to you

bernard snowy, Saturday, 27 February 2016 13:42 (nine months ago) Permalink

there’s really no reliable data on either thing — how many men get away with rape, how many women lie about rape— so I’m not sure how anyone can make this statement in confidence.

― wizzz! (amateurist), Saturday, February 27, 2016 4:57 AM (9 hours ago)

https://rainn.org/statistics
http://rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php

emil.y, Saturday, 27 February 2016 14:47 (nine months ago) Permalink

Larkin posted this in an FB comment in response:

I have this statement to give in response to Michael's admission of guilt.
This is a perfect example of why we need to have education about consent. In a gentlemanly move he admits the act happened but cannot conceive of himself as a rapist. Thank you Michael Gira for your honesty. This is your truth as you remember it. Unfortunately, this was still rape. I said no to you many times before that day, begged you not to interfere with me sexually, even made it a part of a verbal agreement we had when I signed a contract with you. I asked you to promise that you would never have sex with me. You assured me that I could trust you. That is about as clear a NO as I could ever cry. I asked for this because I had had other experiences in my music career and I KNEW.

That night I was far too intoxicated to give you consent for any sexual act. The psychological effects of this betrayal were devastating. Even worse, when I finally confronted you about what you had done, you terminated my relationship with Young God Records, damaging my career and leading people to believe there was something wrong with me or my music.

In the end, this is about business. Art is my career. I have worked long and hard for this career, making incredible sacrifices along the way to continue to make music. The fact that a man in power can throw a women's life and work away like they are garbage, simply because she won't sleep with him, is an immoral injustice that happens to many, many women in music. I won't stand for it and neither should you.

Ned Raggett, Saturday, 27 February 2016 15:37 (nine months ago) Permalink

We don't lose our common sense just because there's a sensitive topic. The above quote is just crazy (a verbal agreement that you would never have sex with me). Gira isn't a trustworthy source either.

Nobody will ever know what happened, and nothing productive is going to come from this thread.

dlp9001, Saturday, 27 February 2016 16:06 (nine months ago) Permalink

Nobody has quoted "Trust Me" yet, which is a strange oversight, in a kind of horrible way.

dlp9001, Saturday, 27 February 2016 16:10 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp well-said *fucks off back to a more productive corner of ILX*

bernard snowy, Saturday, 27 February 2016 16:11 (nine months ago) Permalink

The above quote is just crazy (a verbal agreement that you would never have sex with me).

There is absolutely nothing "crazy" about this in context, also can we please keep "crazy" tf out of this thread

a serious and fascinating fartist (Simon H.), Saturday, 27 February 2016 16:28 (nine months ago) Permalink

yeah dlp that was very disappointing

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Saturday, 27 February 2016 16:33 (nine months ago) Permalink

I'm sorry, but it isn't. I see two very unreliable people, both making bad choices, and I have no idea what actually happened. As a result, I don't think this thread is serving any real purpose.

dlp9001, Saturday, 27 February 2016 16:35 (nine months ago) Permalink

then fucking go away

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Saturday, 27 February 2016 16:44 (nine months ago) Permalink

Good advice.

dlp9001, Saturday, 27 February 2016 16:45 (nine months ago) Permalink

Secondly, those who are moved by the passion of Ms. Grimm's original accusations

in which she relates her experience

should read Jennifer Gira's equally impassioned retort

in which she casts her own experience as the standard for what rape is

which is an interesting tactic considering "it didn't happen" in the first place, right?

the idea of making a "retort" when someone says they were raped is so fucked up in the first place. this is like master class in how not to respond to an assault allegation.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Saturday, 27 February 2016 16:46 (nine months ago) Permalink

^^^^^

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Saturday, 27 February 2016 16:48 (nine months ago) Permalink

"THIS DIDN'T HAPPEN AND SHE IS A LYING HARPY (but if it did.....it wasn't a real rape because i experienced a real rape and i know)"

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Saturday, 27 February 2016 16:50 (nine months ago) Permalink

"THIS IS A SLANDEROUS LIE AND SHE IS A HORRIBLE PERSON!!! (actually every thing she mentioned did happen, but it was a totally ok and consensual act and she's an amazing though troubled person)"

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Saturday, 27 February 2016 16:51 (nine months ago) Permalink

If Gira ever confesses, or if anything concrete ever comes out, I'll be back here in the blink of an eye to agree that he's a bad person. I just don't see a few days after a facebook post being an appropriate amount of time to form a judgement. I also don't judge people based on their writing skills.

dlp9001, Saturday, 27 February 2016 16:52 (nine months ago) Permalink

given how much his story has changed in the last 24 hours, I'll be holding you to that.

this has nothing to do with "writing skills"

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Saturday, 27 February 2016 16:55 (nine months ago) Permalink

the history of rape allegations is full of impassioned defenses of the alleged rapist made by people who weren't there and have no basis to make a defense other than they like the guy.

nomar, Saturday, 27 February 2016 16:56 (nine months ago) Permalink

lol @ "writing skills"

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Saturday, 27 February 2016 16:58 (nine months ago) Permalink

Moving as in evoking strong feelings, moron.

Strong feelings of what exactly (unless you mean that reading Gira's wife's invoked strong feelings of ickiness about her defense of him, I'm a bit flummoxed)?

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Saturday, 27 February 2016 17:03 (nine months ago) Permalink

Writing skills = not judging what actually happened based on how well people express themselves about it. That's usually used in the other direction, to discredit people. Again, no idea what happened. Only two people know. This thread=no purpose.

dlp9001, Saturday, 27 February 2016 17:03 (nine months ago) Permalink

At the moment, anyway.

dlp9001, Saturday, 27 February 2016 17:04 (nine months ago) Permalink

we are talking about the way the Gira's stories have changed drastically in the last 24 hours, not about how well they are expressing themselves.

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Saturday, 27 February 2016 17:08 (nine months ago) Permalink

Whether we know what happened back then, we know how he and his wife have responded since her first post. I'd say those responses reflect pretty badly on him.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Saturday, 27 February 2016 17:10 (nine months ago) Permalink

We don't judge rape victims when their stories change, which is correct. I don't really see why holding off on judgement in the few days after all this is an issue. I'm hardly a Gira fanboy, fwiw, and could live without listening to his band again if need be. I think it's smart to wait and see how things look after some time passes. He may confess. He may not. Other people may come forward. Etc.

dlp9001, Saturday, 27 February 2016 17:12 (nine months ago) Permalink

If only the brain had a mechanism to analyze new developments and apply them to previously held opinions

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Saturday, 27 February 2016 17:15 (nine months ago) Permalink

it does. it's called "thinking". executed properly, it takes time.

luckily, when time is short and evidence scant, your brain can also "jump to conclusions and argue about them on the internet". which is pretty fun.

inclined to believe larkin here. in no hurry to sell off swans albs.

somewhere btwn Gabriel Garcia Marquez and early Evel Knievel guy (contenderizer), Saturday, 27 February 2016 17:32 (nine months ago) Permalink

...in the meantime, there's always the allegations against Ellis to speculate on!
(iirc they involved multiple witnesses in public places with conflicting accounts?)
should be a fun season for lovers of drama :/

bernard snowy, Saturday, 27 February 2016 17:49 (nine months ago) Permalink

The above quote is just crazy (a verbal agreement that you would never have sex with me).

― dlp9001, Saturday, February 27, 2016 11:06 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

really, really missing the "crazy" component here, society is built on such agreements, though most people have the common sense and keeping-it-in-their-pantsingness not to require to be spelled out in words

not surprised gira walked back his post so quickly, the accusation had the sort of details it's a bit too hard to work into a lie for most people. as far as "holding off judgment" there's really no scenario here that doesn't make him look like a bad person, it's just a matter of degree

a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Saturday, 27 February 2016 21:40 (nine months ago) Permalink

If you're at a point where you're asking someone to verbally agree not to have sex with you, who you plan to continue to have contact with, something has gone very, very wrong. Crazy doesn't mean she is crazy.

dlp9001, Saturday, 27 February 2016 21:43 (nine months ago) Permalink

If you're at a point where you're asking someone to verbally agree not to have sex with you, who you plan to continue to have contact with, something has gone very, very wrong.

― dlp9001, Saturday, February 27, 2016 4:43 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

no shit, but the "very, very wrong" isn't on her part here, nor is "plan to continue to have contact with" often a free choice. to take an extreme case, you could extend this same argument to abused children.

a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Saturday, 27 February 2016 21:46 (nine months ago) Permalink

I don't really see the parallel, which does seem extreme. The main point is that this is clearly an unusual situation, and there aren't any reasonable guesses about what actually happened.

dlp9001, Saturday, 27 February 2016 21:50 (nine months ago) Permalink

The parallel is being at a point where you're asking someone to verbally agree not to have sex with you, who you plan to continue to have contact with it.

And this isn't an unusual situation at all. Again, even the best-case scenario for Gira is garden-variety assholery.

a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Saturday, 27 February 2016 21:53 (nine months ago) Permalink

the power dynamic between the two of them is what bothers me the most because it reminds me of irl stuff that friends have had to deal with, especially the not making public accusations, trying to stay on good terms, etc. stuff that in this case (and many others) gets used as "evidence" against the victim in terms of diminishing their credibility.

sarahell, Saturday, 27 February 2016 21:58 (nine months ago) Permalink

the power dynamic between the two of them is what bothers me the most because it reminds me of irl stuff that friends have had to deal with, especially the not making public accusations, trying to stay on good terms, etc. stuff that in this case (and many others) gets used as "evidence" against the victim in terms of diminishing their credibility.

― sarahell, Saturday, February 27, 2016 4:58 PM (21 seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yes, exactly. this is why "plan to continue to have contact with" is seldom a free choice. for women, especially, there is a tremendous amount of pressure to be or at least appear forgiving, and not "difficult" or "emotional" or "unreasonable" or "crazy," that leads to such things.

a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Saturday, 27 February 2016 21:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

Abused children don't have the option to walk away, so it's not a valid comparison. That's all. Look, I'm perfectly willing to believe that Gira did it. It doesn't strike me as inconceivable at all. At the same time, right now it's two people with different accounts of what happened. So I reserve judgement. How they present their cases on facebook, etc., doesn't really have any bearing on what actually happened.

dlp9001, Saturday, 27 February 2016 22:00 (nine months ago) Permalink

there is a tremendous amount of pressure to be or at least appear forgiving, and not "difficult" or "emotional" or "unreasonable" or "crazy," that leads to such things.

GOD YES! I can't count the number of times I've heard men say these things about women they've been abusive towards, and because their audience admire the guy, or he is in a position to help their careers, their response is often, "Oh yeah, man, I've heard stories about her ... crazy...." though I hope that they are just saying that to the guy but not actually believing it, and really are thinking, "Uh, this guy is a total dick."

sarahell, Saturday, 27 February 2016 22:02 (nine months ago) Permalink

if someone is your label boss, overseeing your album, _living with you_, then no, it's not so easy to walk away either. sure, it's an option in the most literal sense, but so are many things that you're not going to do.

a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Saturday, 27 February 2016 22:04 (nine months ago) Permalink

Xxpost what is your ultimate goal here? That people stop posting to the thread?

Why are you attempting to dictate that everybody require the same amount of evidence as the court of law prior to forming an opinion? Would you say to your kid "I'm sorry Tommy is picking on you, but I have to wait until the facts come out before I help you?"

Nobody's going to think less of you if you don't have an opinion yet but some have formed one based on the context of the data available. We all do it.

If new evidence comes out....people will adjust their opinions. Nobody here knows Gira or is causing irreparable harm by thinking the accusation sounds valid and that his reaction seems sketchy.

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Saturday, 27 February 2016 22:06 (nine months ago) Permalink

I'd kind of love it if there was a hiatus on the thread for a bit, yes. Nobody can dictate what happens on the internet.

dlp9001, Saturday, 27 February 2016 22:09 (nine months ago) Permalink

Well if that's the case you have made that point 10+ times

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Saturday, 27 February 2016 22:11 (nine months ago) Permalink

classic

hunangarage, Saturday, 27 February 2016 22:19 (nine months ago) Permalink

dlp already got one thread shut down this week he's just on a roll!

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 27 February 2016 22:22 (nine months ago) Permalink

i'm not sure why anybody would still be talking about how we don't know what happened since gira's second statement seems to confirm the essentials of grimm's story.

call all destroyer, Saturday, 27 February 2016 23:01 (nine months ago) Permalink

dude

call all destroyer, Saturday, 27 February 2016 23:10 (nine months ago) Permalink

"Wait for facts to come out" is usually a dog whistle on the Internet....

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Saturday, 27 February 2016 23:21 (nine months ago) Permalink

i'm not sure why anybody would still be talking about how we don't know what happened since gira's second statement seems to confirm the essentials of grimm's story.
― call all destroyer, Saturday, February 27, 2016 5:01 PM (25 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Otm

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, 27 February 2016 23:28 (nine months ago) Permalink

Yeah otm

spirited ai weiwei (Treeship), Saturday, 27 February 2016 23:31 (nine months ago) Permalink

I don't really see the parallel, which does seem extreme. The main point is that this is clearly an unusual situation, and there aren't any reasonable guesses about what actually happened.

if you've heard more than a few stories of abuse - all kinds of abuse - you realize it's actually easy to make very, very reasonable guesses about what happened. there are always patterns. i doubt gira had much malicious intent, but as larkin mentions in one of her posts, his behavior was cowardly bc he wouldn't own up to what he had done, with or without intention to hurt her.

adult children who have been abused often maintain contact, even close contact, with their abusive parents.

just1n3, Saturday, 27 February 2016 23:32 (nine months ago) Permalink

GOD YES! I can't count the number of times I've heard men say these things about women they've been abusive towards, and because their audience admire the guy, or he is in a position to help their careers, their response is often, "Oh yeah, man, I've heard stories about her ... crazy...." though I hope that they are just saying that to the guy but not actually believing it, and really are thinking, "Uh, this guy is a total dick."

― sarahell, Saturday, February 27, 2016 10:02 PM (1 hour ago)

Also there is a major flaw in the idea that crazy = this didn't happen. There's a reason people get called "vulnerable adults" (or at least they do in the UK, anyway). Something of a tangent in this case but always worth pointing out.

emil.y, Saturday, 27 February 2016 23:44 (nine months ago) Permalink

I was serially assaulted in my sleep twice by the same man who had previously been a friend. I woke up the second time to find my pants open and the friend grasping my penis.

Both times I was very drunk and he waited for me to pass out. Worst of all..he was a coworker of mine.

I never filed any report, told my boss...and even with the man himself, we only talked about it once (where I told him I was upset by it) and he said it wouldn't happen again. It didnt, but he did one day make another unsettling request.

I stayed friends with him for 3 years after that despite feeling disgusted by it. Why? Cos I was scared. If he was capable of doing that to me in my sleep, what would he do if I shut him out? What if he got violent? He also knew where I lived

I even let him come to my grandmother's funeral. He hugged my mother who said he was always welcome. I couldn't tell her the truth in that moment.

I finally broke off contact with him years later. Note. ...I was drunk both times it happened. I didn't break off contact with the guy. But having the privilege of being male meant nobody I told questioned either thing as suspicious.

Her story is not unbelievable.

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Saturday, 27 February 2016 23:58 (nine months ago) Permalink

*sexually, not serially

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Saturday, 27 February 2016 23:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

This story is fucking me up.

Frederik B, Sunday, 28 February 2016 00:56 (nine months ago) Permalink

Larkin is so articulate. So considerate. This story is so much bigger than what happened that one night.

Frederik B, Sunday, 28 February 2016 00:57 (nine months ago) Permalink

her FB posts have been very good and I think quoting one is relevant ITT:

Michael Gira also survived abuse. A good artist writes what they know, they write the things in their hearts. I still listen to Led Zeppelin despite having read the shocking biography. Being a good artist is not dependent upon being a good person. Art is higher than morality. You have my blessing to listen to Swans all you want. What I would like to end is the blaming and shaming of rape victims, and the scapegoating of the few men who are convicted of rape when the whole of society stands by and lets the abuse of women be perpetrated in public over and over again.

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Sunday, 28 February 2016 07:54 (nine months ago) Permalink

i'm not sure why anybody would still be talking about how we don't know what happened since gira's second statement seems to confirm the essentials of grimm's story

Except that he says it was consensual and she says it wasn't.

schlep and back trio (anagram), Sunday, 28 February 2016 08:45 (nine months ago) Permalink

If she says it wasn't consensual then it wasn't. Doesn't matter if he thinks it was.

woman in the dunes, Sunday, 28 February 2016 13:55 (nine months ago) Permalink

Gira says that it wasn't consummated. That is a big difference in essentials.

jmm, Sunday, 28 February 2016 14:19 (nine months ago) Permalink

You have my blessing to listen to Swans all you want.

Oh, thank you, Larkin

Wimmels, Sunday, 28 February 2016 14:31 (nine months ago) Permalink

pleasant

nomar, Sunday, 28 February 2016 15:52 (nine months ago) Permalink

She's being remarkably graceful and it's pretty insane to me to see ilx act this way, or maybe not

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, 28 February 2016 16:00 (nine months ago) Permalink

I mean what the fuck is that post even about right?

nomar, Sunday, 28 February 2016 16:05 (nine months ago) Permalink

This thread infuriated me yesterday but rereading brimstead, emil.y, and crut's other posts (among many others) makes me feel better about it.

I don't know much about Gira but was interested in reading the discussion (which was far from a tarring and featherimg) prior to the VHAT IST DASO POINT OF DIS THREAD derail.

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Sunday, 28 February 2016 16:24 (nine months ago) Permalink

She's being remarkably graceful and it's pretty insane to me to see ilx act this way, or maybe not

it's pretty insane that those stupid fucking images haven't been deleted yet

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Sunday, 28 February 2016 16:27 (nine months ago) Permalink

Gone now.

mod, Sunday, 28 February 2016 16:39 (nine months ago) Permalink

what images? what?

akm, Sunday, 28 February 2016 17:12 (nine months ago) Permalink

ye dun wanna know

somewhere btwn Gabriel Garcia Marquez and early Evel Knievel guy (contenderizer), Sunday, 28 February 2016 17:19 (nine months ago) Permalink

If she says it wasn't consensual then it wasn't. Doesn't matter if he thinks it was.

― woman in the dunes, Sunday, February 28, 2016 5:55 AM (3 hours ago)

sorry, i have to ask...

so, let's say two parties each sincerely believe the other has given consent, and ~whatever~ ensues with no change in that. if one of the two later claims not to have consented, then that claim must not only be believed, but be treated as absolute fact? why so? do you mean in a general sense or for legal purposes? both?

somewhere btwn Gabriel Garcia Marquez and early Evel Knievel guy (contenderizer), Sunday, 28 February 2016 17:30 (nine months ago) Permalink

I've realized that Larkin's posts about this are articulate, considerate, very good, and graceful, and her story is not unbelievable. Gira has changed his story, and his history suggests that he can't be trusted. I think at this point it's safe to say that he did it.

dlp9001, Sunday, 28 February 2016 18:48 (nine months ago) Permalink

Gira says that it wasn't consummated. That is a big difference in essentials.

― jmm, Sunday, February 28, 2016 6:19 AM (4 hours ago)

some dudes will say that to refer to fucking without orgasm/ejaculation ... penetration without consent is still rape

sarahell, Sunday, 28 February 2016 18:58 (nine months ago) Permalink

Yeah given how weaselly his "admission" was in general, not consummated could mean practically anything

anglos with derpy phasis (wins), Sunday, 28 February 2016 19:00 (nine months ago) Permalink

He's really pretty unreliable. He changes his story, gets vague on details, etc. I'm pretty sure he's guilty.

dlp9001, Sunday, 28 February 2016 19:02 (nine months ago) Permalink

glacial clap 4 u tbh

anglos with derpy phasis (wins), Sunday, 28 February 2016 19:02 (nine months ago) Permalink

Tbh I automatically read it as 'I didn't ejaculate' rather than any other way, because to a certain strata of men, that's what sex is alllll about.

emil.y, Sunday, 28 February 2016 19:03 (nine months ago) Permalink

^^ exactly.

sarahell, Sunday, 28 February 2016 19:07 (nine months ago) Permalink

though to be charitable to men, it's a standard manoeuver when trying to minimize the significance of the sex act ... maybe he views it differently with his wife or a partner that he wants to feel closer to?

sarahell, Sunday, 28 February 2016 19:10 (nine months ago) Permalink

If he meant to say they didn't actually have intercourse he would've said just that - consummated is def his "polite" way of saying he didn't come while also managing to imply that maybe they didn't have sex. It's slimy.

just1n3, Sunday, 28 February 2016 20:37 (nine months ago) Permalink

i keep re-reading the sentence "My hope is that Larkin finds peace with the demons that have been darkening her soul since long before she and I ever met" in that statement and it's one of the most garbage things i've ever read

nomar, Sunday, 28 February 2016 20:41 (nine months ago) Permalink

and it's the typical smear tactic in this case, a mix of condescension and concern-trolling that will nonetheless placate those that are willing to see him as innocent simply cos they like him.

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Sunday, 28 February 2016 20:49 (nine months ago) Permalink

Gira says that it wasn't consummated. That is a big difference in essentials.

sex is not a one-way activity. to pretend the man has to have an orgasm for it to be a sexual act is insane.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Sunday, 28 February 2016 20:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

the peace with the demons thing is straight up victim blaming bs

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Sunday, 28 February 2016 21:01 (nine months ago) Permalink

and it's the typical smear tactic in this case, a mix of condescension and concern-trolling that will nonetheless placate those that are willing to see him as innocent simply cos they like him.

I'd say (judging from here and elsewhere) that this strategy backfired.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Sunday, 28 February 2016 21:03 (nine months ago) Permalink

I mean there's that whole monologue in (I'm sorry) Chasing Amy where Afflect's character suggests Amy is a virgin because she can't have 'penetrative' sex. It is definitely a thing with men that they focus on climax as constituting whether it was sex or not.

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Sunday, 28 February 2016 21:04 (nine months ago) Permalink

sex is not a one-way activity. to pretend the man has to have an orgasm for it to be a sexual act is insane.

I know that, thanks. I assumed by "not consummated" he meant that there wasn't any penetration, but you guys may be right. That whole sentence is really vague.

jmm, Sunday, 28 February 2016 21:05 (nine months ago) Permalink

I'd say (judging from here and elsewhere) that this strategy backfired.

― One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Sunday, February 28, 2016 4:03 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

yep, and I hope it does. a shitty thing to say (putting it mildly).

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Sunday, 28 February 2016 21:05 (nine months ago) Permalink

i had no desire to revisit the fb statements of the parties involved and comment on how i took them but suffice to say sarahell, justine, emily otm

call all destroyer, Sunday, 28 February 2016 21:16 (nine months ago) Permalink

That whole sentence is really vague.

I'd say her specificity and his vagary is one of the most compelling reasons to give her interpretation far more credence than whatever his is at this point (although there are a lot of other reasons as well).

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Sunday, 28 February 2016 21:22 (nine months ago) Permalink

The inconsistencies in Gira's story make it very suspect.

dlp9001, Sunday, 28 February 2016 21:58 (nine months ago) Permalink

I was thinking earlier re consummating the sex act that one thing that was circulating about the Clinton /Lewinsky situation was that being Southern Clinton didn't see oral sex as a ful sex act so was denying things on that grounds. Also tied in with Mormon groupies in Salt Lake city giving the best head since with it not being penetrative sex it didn't count against your virtue or whatever when you grew out of that phase.
So the epistemology of what is recognised as constituting sex seems to have a wide perimeter, which might help one making excuses to oneself.

Stevolende, Sunday, 28 February 2016 22:21 (nine months ago) Permalink

Just said that a bit wrong it was supposed to be that which does/doesn't constitute a sex act in people's epistemology has a wide parameter. So what an individual may believe to not constitute sex may depend on where they were brought up and when.

Stevolende, Sunday, 28 February 2016 22:31 (nine months ago) Permalink

I don't think he was confused or coming from a different perspectivd here, I think that was a weasel-worded smokescreen, a way to deny the event without technically "lying"

Treeship, Sunday, 28 February 2016 22:45 (nine months ago) Permalink

I don't think lying sack of shit Bill Clinton was confused either.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Sunday, 28 February 2016 22:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

Yeah seriously good point

Treeship, Sunday, 28 February 2016 23:17 (nine months ago) Permalink

i just keep coming back to the fact that so many ppl are acting like larkin is somehow in the wrong for speaking out now/at all/ever/publicly/etc vs gira bringing this entire clusterfuck entirely on himself in all sorts of different ways. he has fucked up so many lives over this, when a simple admission to her years ago, followed by an apology, would have kept this under wraps. even now, if he had immediately acknowledged and apologized, this would have died down significantly, and quickly.

just1n3, Monday, 29 February 2016 03:02 (nine months ago) Permalink

Lol wut no it wouldnt have!

Οὖτις, Monday, 29 February 2016 03:12 (nine months ago) Permalink

Obviously he could have handled it way better but once it became public I'm pretty sure there was no way he wasn't going to get damaged by this allegation. It remains to be seen how badly this hurts him though even with his shitty response. Way worse humans still sell records.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Monday, 29 February 2016 03:19 (nine months ago) Permalink

weird to see swans has like over 30 threads on ilm and I have never listened to anything by this dude - like he has to live on a small but devoted cult, anything that eats into that has to hurt him a lot i would guess but i don't have any insight into gira fandom so maybe not

karla jay vespers, Monday, 29 February 2016 03:24 (nine months ago) Permalink

if he had privately contacted larkin, talked with her, he then could have said 'yeah, i've been a real asshole for not acknowledging that i did not have her enthusiastic consent, i realized i just took her consent for granted, refused to really listen to what she was saying and then lived in denial about my actions, male privilege etc etc, my message to other men is etc etc, i've apologized privately but now i want to apologize publicly etc etc'. bullshit this wouldn't have kept the story to waaaaay less of a clusterfuck, one that ppl would quickly move on from! because there wouldn't have been much left to argue about, there'd be none of the he said/she said stuff, no taking sides, it would be resolved at the personal level and then the conversation could move beyond the two main players and onto the bigger topic of rape culture.

just1n3, Monday, 29 February 2016 03:35 (nine months ago) Permalink

I said this elsewhere but if a woman changed her story this often I can't imagine the amount of shit she'd get so I'm not sure why people are giving gira a pass unquestioningly

a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Monday, 29 February 2016 03:48 (nine months ago) Permalink

xxp
If you want some insights into Gira fandom: mine was kindled by the three excellent albums Swans have made since their 2010 revival, and when the allegations broke I was contemplating spending money on music by his other group, Angels of Light. I have subsequently tabled those plans; I don't know whether the allegations will diminish my enjoyment of Swans' music, which is so much bigger (musically, materially, & conceptually) than any one person, Michael Gira included; but the Angels of Light stuff tends to be way more stripped-down & folksy, in a way that might not survive without its cult appeal.

Gira is definitely an iconic, larger-than-life figure for me -- I mean, you've got Sonic Youth opening for him on their first-ever tour, come on! -- but I don't think he ever did anything to earn my veneration, and if I've put him on a pedestal due to his involvement with a lot of records I've deeply loved throughout the years (by Swans, Angels of Light, Akron/Family, & others) then I think this scandal offers the chance to take him down & reflect on the reasons why I put him there (white, male, respected New York artist, 'transgressive', cynical, etc?)

In other words: I know better than to spring to his defense, feel less-inclined to support him with $$$ in the future, but would probably get defensive if anyone tried to call me out for continuing to enjoy his music.

bernard snowy, Monday, 29 February 2016 03:53 (nine months ago) Permalink

if he had privately contacted larkin, talked with her, he then could have said 'yeah, i've been a real asshole for not acknowledging that i did not have her enthusiastic consent, i realized i just took her consent for granted, refused to really listen to what she was saying and then lived in denial about my actions, male privilege etc etc, my message to other men is etc etc, i've apologized privately but now i want to apologize publicly etc etc'. bullshit this wouldn't have kept the story to waaaaay less of a clusterfuck, one that ppl would quickly move on from! because there wouldn't have been much left to argue about, there'd be none of the he said/she said stuff, no taking sides, it would be resolved at the personal level and then the conversation could move beyond the two main players and onto the bigger topic of rape culture.

― just1n3, Monday, February 29, 2016 3:35 AM (18 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

quoted & bolded for truth & reconciliation

bernard snowy, Monday, 29 February 2016 03:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

stevolende cmon, the account given is about someone being raped while sleeping; you are obv not wrong abt the broad parameters of 'sex' but that is not pertinent here

bloat laureate (schlump), Monday, 29 February 2016 05:08 (nine months ago) Permalink

she isn't even filing a lawsuit or anything and people are jumping through hoops playing lawyer to defend him

it doesn't matter if he thinks it isn't rape if he didn't ejaculate. i don't care if he thought the line was in a different place. you shouldn't need some special amount of knowledge about legal definitions of sex or whatever to know not to put your dick in the body of a non-consenting person.

qualx, Monday, 29 February 2016 05:35 (nine months ago) Permalink

I wasn't seeing it as an excuse for his behaviour but I did wonder if he did.

Stevolende, Monday, 29 February 2016 08:48 (nine months ago) Permalink

Also just thinking about Gira's inclusion in that thread about rockstars as overgrown children who need to be nannied. I hadn't thought he fit in there before, wondering now. Would have thought he had better moral sense. Glad that so far we haven't heard anything about him doing this thanks to a stupor or in another form of unconscious state, sleep-rape or something.
I take it that it is currently a given that she was asleep and he was aware of it, though that is still speculation to some degree.
Would hate to think that her lack of resistance to him made him think it was ok.

Stevolende, Monday, 29 February 2016 10:04 (nine months ago) Permalink

if he had privately contacted larkin, talked with her, he then could have said 'yeah, i've been a real asshole for not acknowledging that i did not have her enthusiastic consent, i realized i just took her consent for granted, refused to really listen to what she was saying and then lived in denial about my actions, male privilege etc etc, my message to other men is etc etc, i've apologized privately but now i want to apologize publicly etc etc'.

serious question, are their any cases where a public figure/celebrity has been publicly accused of rape and responded in this way? I can think of cases where there was maybe some circumspect acknowledgement from the accused that they had behaved in a less than exemplary fashion, but not enough to shift the accusation out of 'he said/she said' limbo. the closest I can think of is this:

http://www.theguardian.com/education/2015/oct/14/oxford-university-student-annie-teriba-resigns-posts-non-consensual-sex

I guess it would be nice to think that if if Gira responded to Grimm's fb post with a swift admission and apology that everyone would have quickly moved on to a productive discussion about these issues in general, but that seems unlikely to me tbh.

soref, Monday, 29 February 2016 14:01 (nine months ago) Permalink

presumably his lawyer would tell him that a public admission of guilt would open the door to prosecution if larkin changed her mind down (statute of limitations notwithstanding)

jason waterfalls (gbx), Monday, 29 February 2016 14:03 (nine months ago) Permalink

down *the road

jason waterfalls (gbx), Monday, 29 February 2016 14:03 (nine months ago) Permalink

I was wondering, if Gira did publicly admit to rape would he be at risk of prosecution even if Grimm didn't want to pursue that option? would it be possible to prosecute him without her involvement or would she need to make a complaint to the police for that to happen, even if he had made a public confession?

soref, Monday, 29 February 2016 14:07 (nine months ago) Permalink

mm..
no.

Mark G, Monday, 29 February 2016 15:09 (nine months ago) Permalink

mm..
wrong.

Three Word Username, Monday, 29 February 2016 15:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

Yeah I get that my hypothetical has never rolled out that way before but that's my point. If other women come out with similar stories, though, he's fucked.

just1n3, Monday, 29 February 2016 17:38 (nine months ago) Permalink

oh yeah, that's truee.

Mark G, Monday, 29 February 2016 18:37 (nine months ago) Permalink

true.

Mark G, Monday, 29 February 2016 18:37 (nine months ago) Permalink

Larkin has a new song out about survivors of abuse, released today. http://larkingrimm.bandcamp.com/track/i-dont-believe. With Martin Bisi and Tony Visconti.

dlp9001, Monday, 29 February 2016 19:50 (nine months ago) Permalink

Martin Bisi... That's interesting

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 29 February 2016 20:31 (nine months ago) Permalink

yeah bisi goes way back to the 80s with gira right?

François Pitchforkian (NickB), Monday, 29 February 2016 20:42 (nine months ago) Permalink

Yeah produced Swans, Angels of Light

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 29 February 2016 20:48 (nine months ago) Permalink

i played a show with bisi once, pretty awful music

flopson, Monday, 29 February 2016 21:03 (nine months ago) Permalink

I guess I know him more as a producer never heard good music

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, 29 February 2016 21:40 (nine months ago) Permalink

I kept wondering if jarboe would have anything to say but nothing yet

nomar, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 15:13 (nine months ago) Permalink

I'm pretty sure that Jarboe wasn't there the night that Gira did/didn't rape Larkin Grimm, so I'm not exactly sure what she'd have to say. I would like to point out, though, that Larkin has a new song out on Bandcamp that everyone should listen to.

dlp9001, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 15:16 (nine months ago) Permalink

jarboe has alluded to "solidarity" with michael on her fb.

kurt schwitterz, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 17:42 (nine months ago) Permalink

I hate when people do that. You have no idea what happened Jarboe . Pledge solidarity privately in these instances.

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 17:48 (nine months ago) Permalink

i mean its her own personal fb page..

kurt schwitterz, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 17:48 (nine months ago) Permalink

IYou have no idea what happened Jarboe

not unlike a lot of the posts on this page!

stirmonster, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:01 (nine months ago) Permalink

Nobody here is a (relatively) public figure either

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:05 (nine months ago) Permalink

I hate when people do that. You have no idea what happened Jarboe . Pledge solidarity privately in these instances.

― you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Tuesday, March 1, 2016 12:48 PM (31 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

So public solidarity is OK as long as its with the accuser and not the accused. Got it.

Wimmels, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:21 (nine months ago) Permalink

i think you're overcorrecting by sneering at the statements made by a possible rape victim

nomar, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:22 (nine months ago) Permalink

Xpost sure if you wanna strawman what I said

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:23 (nine months ago) Permalink

people wonder why rape victims don't come forward sometimes, i wonder if it has anything to do with people not remaining neutral or supporting them, but rather implying that they're liars, sometimes implying they may be doing it for attention. maybe some of them don't want to be psychologically traumatized a second time.

nomar, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:26 (nine months ago) Permalink

"I'm a feminist, guys! Except when someone I like is accused of doing something bad, then women are clearly attention-seeking lying whores".

emil.y, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:28 (nine months ago) Permalink

Otm.

Like I'm not saying Jarboe should be mum but pledging solidarity comes across as "I support my friend in the face of these horrible made up lies". Similar to Rashad re: Cosby.

Probably not what is meant but it's how it could be read.

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:29 (nine months ago) Permalink

Xpost

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:29 (nine months ago) Permalink

"hmm i was wondering what jarboe thinks of all this"

*jarboe posts something*

"stupid jarboe i hate when ppl do this! ppl in the public need to stfu!"

smh

kurt schwitterz, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:30 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp "I'm a critically-thinking person, guys! Except when someone I don't know accuses someone else I don't know of doing something bad, then I'm ready to take sides immediately based on speculation, conjecture, and my own personal biases."

Wimmels, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:31 (nine months ago) Permalink

I believe I will stay off the internet for a few days until this whole thing blows over

you, like 5 days ago

jfc stfu

Karl Malone, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:40 (nine months ago) Permalink

i couldn't possibly imagine why women hesitate to speak out about sexual abuse, jeez, i have no idea why that might be

oh wait, this thread

Karl Malone, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:41 (nine months ago) Permalink

it's fucking revolting

Karl Malone, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:41 (nine months ago) Permalink

WRETCH

Karl Malone, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:41 (nine months ago) Permalink

New song out today, dedicated to all the survivors of abuse. Recorded with Martin Bisi and Tony Visconti.

http://larkingrimm.bandcamp.com/track/i-dont-believe

― dlp9001, Tuesday, March 1, 2016 2:31 AM (16 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

impeccable timing

I guess art really is higher than morality

― Wimmels, Tuesday, March 1, 2016 2:06 PM (4 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

nomar, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:42 (nine months ago) Permalink

cool guy

nomar, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:42 (nine months ago) Permalink

sorry but knowing multiple people who survived abuse and assault (including one of my best friends, both her and her sister being assaulted while young by their mom's boyfriend, one of whom was too scared to speak up bc the other wasn't believed by anyone for quite awhile) i find comments like that infuriating to the extreme.

nomar, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 18:43 (nine months ago) Permalink

swans bros are the worst bros

qualx, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:05 (nine months ago) Permalink

not that it's any different anywhere else just ugh

qualx, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:05 (nine months ago) Permalink

swans bros suck thats tru

kurt schwitterz, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:07 (nine months ago) Permalink

Um Kurt yr conflating nomar and me

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:14 (nine months ago) Permalink

you guys are "people" im just talkin bout "people"

kurt schwitterz, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:17 (nine months ago) Permalink

neanderthal is technically our ancestor

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:20 (nine months ago) Permalink

lol

anglos with derpy phasis (wins), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:21 (nine months ago) Permalink

a swans bro defriended me on fb for posting about the Death in June Nazi thing ... but that's just one dude

sarahell, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:22 (nine months ago) Permalink

when we try to talk about these issues swans bros want to quiet us

anglos with derpy phasis (wins), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:24 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp kurt - swans bro was briefly in a band with our mutual friend whose birthday is today

sarahell, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:26 (nine months ago) Permalink

a swans bro defriended me on fb for posting about the Death in June Nazi thing ... but that's just one dude

― sarahell, Tuesday, March 1, 2016 1:22 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

is there some new thing or just the same thing that's been going on for the past 30 years?

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:26 (nine months ago) Permalink

many xp If you're referring to me, I'm not a "Swans bro." Like you, I am generally more inclined to believe an accuser than the accused in these situations for many of the reasons mentioned and linked to upthread. And I'm sorry if this sounds very "I have black friends," but I grew up with sisters and a strong mother, took women's studies courses in college, worked in venues that sponsored women's self defense classes, and generally consider myself a strong supporter of women's rights. I realize this isn't the same as being on the front line, necessarily, but I'd just as soon not be lumped in with fanboys and misogynists.

What I don't understand is why no one, as of yet, has answered my (very reasonable) question above, namely, why does "innocent until proven guilty" not apply here, given the fact that all we have to go on is one person's word against another person's word? Many of you here had already made up your minds the second Larkin posted her accusation.

I've seen some vicious, terrible things said about Gira these past few days, despite the fact that two (credible) women have already come out in his defense and no one else has--as of yet--come forward with accusations like Larkin's. It's also important to remember this is a man with children who are (iirc) just about internet-browsing age, and wild speculation in these instances can damage more than a music career.

Wimmels, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:28 (nine months ago) Permalink

why does "innocent until proven guilty" not apply here

because this is not a court of law, it's the internet

Οὖτις, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:36 (nine months ago) Permalink

is there some new thing or just the same thing that's been going on for the past 30 years?

― robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, March 1, 2016 11:26 AM (12 minutes ago)

they played a show where we live.

then this happened:
http://missionlocal.org/2014/11/death-in-june-protest-at-elbo-room/

sarahell, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:40 (nine months ago) Permalink

"(credible)"

gtfo

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:47 (nine months ago) Permalink

that is like one step away from "he's the captain of the football team/successful businessman/esteemed politician" defense and wholly ignores the power dynamics at play here

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:48 (nine months ago) Permalink

how does one gain sufficient credibility for Wimmels in this case?

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:49 (nine months ago) Permalink

'He hasnt raped anyone else'

?

Mark G, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:53 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp So, this "power dynamic" I am ignoring...just so I have this right: this relatively minor figure who owns a small indie label (which seems to currently only exist to release his own music, which is itself often funded by crowdsourcing) is an untouchable tyrant used to "getting what he wants" without consequences, taking advantage of the vulnerable artists on his roster under penalty of being "dropped." This is what you're saying? Sorry, but that's absurd. I would guess that Larkin got "dropped" for the same reason anyone gets dropped: because her records didn't sell. See also: Flux Information Sciences, Mi & Lau, Windsor For The Derby, every non-Swans band to ever record for YGR, etc.

Wimmels, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 19:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

i think you're overcorrecting by sneering at the statements made by a possible rape victim

― nomar, Tuesday, March 1, 2016 6:22 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

this x1000

pantsuit aficionado (stevie), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 20:10 (nine months ago) Permalink

Probably too late to weigh back in on this, as there's been a tsunami of responses since my last comment. In any case, I stand by my use of the word "retort," because that's what it was... a response to an accusation. Simple as that. Look it up.

No one's going to agree, but I get the impression (and this is just my impression...I don't speak for anyone else, "SWANS Bros" or otherwise) that Gira doesn't feel his second statement (wherein he admitted the "awkward mistake") is a reversal of his initial statement (wherein he called Ms. Grimm's accusation a "slanderous lie"). Rightly or wrongly, I don't believe he perceives the events the same way Ms. Grimm does (i.e. while he regrets the event, he doesn't characterize it as rape). Thus, he considers her accusation a lie. I'm not agreeing with him, necessarily (I wasn't there ... and nor were you), I'm just trying to make sense of the narrative. Ms Grimm herself has also since expressed that she wasn't the "perfect victim" (her words) and that the story is "nuanced."

Regardless, unsolicited sexual congress without consent is rape -- whether brutality and force enters into it or not. If indeed he didn't have consent, it was rape.

Alex in NYC, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 20:16 (nine months ago) Permalink

You previously recorded on Young God. When and why did you leave that label?

Michael Gira is very difficult to get along with, and I'm not the only person to be on his label for one or two records. I knew it was just a matter of time. I decided to collaborate with him on my last record, because I admired his work and I always wanted to work with him I thought, "How exciting to do that?" So I did and then the next record...you know, he really like dark, heavy, intense music. I wanted to make a more beautiful album and Tony Visconti wanted to work with me, as a collaborator and co- producer -- he recorded a lot of the classic David Bowie records and he plays bass on my whole new record.

I had to choose between the two, and I was like, "I already worked with Michael Gira. So...I'm going to try this guy out." It was between the time between my last record and my newest record, I moved to New York City so, it's just a whole different community of musicians, and a different scene. And the music world has changed so much that I really don't think there's any point on being on a record label. If you've got enough money to put your own record out, you should do it. That's what I did. I don't have to split my profits with anybody now. That's great.

dlp9001, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 20:17 (nine months ago) Permalink

I think that nuanced is an understatement.

dlp9001, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 20:17 (nine months ago) Permalink

Probably too late to weigh back in on this, as there's been a tsunami of responses since my last comment. In any case, I stand by my use of the word "retort," because that's what it was... a response to an accusation. Simple as that. Look it up.

No one's going to agree, but I get the impression (and this is just my impression...I don't speak for anyone else, "SWANS Bros" or otherwise) that Gira doesn't feel his second statement (wherein he admitted the "awkward mistake") is a reversal of his initial statement (wherein he called Ms. Grimm's accusation a "slanderous lie"). Rightly or wrongly, I don't believe he perceives the events the same way Ms. Grimm does (i.e. while he regrets the event, he doesn't characterize it as rape). Thus, he considers her accusation a lie. I'm not agreeing with him, necessarily (I wasn't there ... and nor were you), I'm just trying to make sense of the narrative. Ms Grimm herself has also since expressed that she wasn't the "perfect victim" (her words) and that the story is "nuanced."

Regardless, unsolicited sexual congress without consent is rape -- whether brutality and force enters into it or not. If indeed he didn't have consent, it was rape.

― Alex in NYC, Tuesday, March 1, 2016 3:16 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^^^ most sensible thing I've read so far

Wimmels, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 20:19 (nine months ago) Permalink

Gira is not a minor figure in the context of indie rock or noise music or whatever, it's absurd to think so

François Pitchforkian (NickB), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 20:20 (nine months ago) Permalink

xpost. Neither is Tony Visconti.

dlp9001, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 20:21 (nine months ago) Permalink

I had to choose between the two, and I was like, "I already worked with Michael Gira. So...I'm going to try this guy out.

But I thought she was "dropped" when she confronted Gira about the alleged rape?

Wimmels, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 20:22 (nine months ago) Permalink

People change their stories. It's a thing that happens.

dlp9001, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 20:24 (nine months ago) Permalink

I see.

Wimmels, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 20:26 (nine months ago) Permalink

yours posts are intended to suggest things about Larkin Grimm but they're really saying so much about you

nomar, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 20:29 (nine months ago) Permalink

like...obviously it's perfectly valid to sit on the fence and say nothing or to say that since we don't know, we can't judge either party. but these posts...very interesting, i'm steepling my fingers over here. some people who have been assaulted, raped, abused...some of them say something right away, some of them never say anything, some of them blame themselves, some of them try to forget it happened, some of them remain on what *seems* like good terms with the people who assaulted them, some of them even remain close. look at Jerry Sandusky's stepson, who stood by him initially and then finally broke down and revealed what happened to him. oh and iirc he was ostracized by his entire adopted family because of what he said.

nomar, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 20:35 (nine months ago) Permalink

"like...obviously it's perfectly valid to sit on the fence and say nothing or to say that since we don't know, we can't judge either party."

I think we were at this point several hundred feet up the thread, but it didn't go over very well at the time.

dlp9001, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 20:40 (nine months ago) Permalink

Think it was the "tell everybody else in the thread that their conversation was useless" is the key part ur missing

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 20:56 (nine months ago) Permalink

Like on the one hand if that's your position fine but others might find the available information sufficient to form an opinion.

I do believe tape tends to curiously always have a higher demand of evidence from the general public.

It's the internet...not court. One can have a gut feeling. Also as stated above...while there is evidence that can come out in a rape case to cast doubt (ie Duke). But in a case from years ago where the victim isn't pursuing criminal charges?

All that's going to come out are additional statements from both sides. There isn't a magic evidence fairy that's gonna make it crystal fucking clear.

And as said above if one is so uncomfortable you can offer support for the victim without accusing the accused if so inclined.

The attempts to dismiss the reactions of many itt who IMO didn't do anything but interpret just what was in front of them is NAGL.

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 21:06 (nine months ago) Permalink

Honestly, neither one of them is particularly reliable. The only thing I see changing this is if other women come forward regarding Gira, which could happen.

This quote really doesn't sit well, "My story with Michael Gira is an absolute tragedy that I have kept secret for too long. I am only speaking of it now because after being accused of "lynching" Thomas, I cannot ethically keep Michael's secret any longer. He's a white guy, and his crime was far worse than what Thomas did to me or Margaret."

But at the same time, I'd have no trouble believing Gira did what she says. So, yeah, we'll never know (probably).

dlp9001, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 21:09 (nine months ago) Permalink

I had to choose between the two, and I was like, "I already worked with Michael Gira. So...I'm going to try this guy out.

But I thought she was "dropped" when she confronted Gira about the alleged rape?

― Wimmels, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 20:22 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Two reasons?

Mark G, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 21:49 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp So, this "power dynamic" I am ignoring...just so I have this right: this relatively minor figure who owns a small indie label (which seems to currently only exist to release his own music, which is itself often funded by crowdsourcing) is an untouchable tyrant used to "getting what he wants" without consequences, taking advantage of the vulnerable artists on his roster under penalty of being "dropped." This is what you're saying? Sorry, but that's absurd. I would guess that Larkin got "dropped" for the same reason anyone gets dropped: because her records didn't sell. See also: Flux Information Sciences, Mi & Lau, Windsor For The Derby, every non-Swans band to ever record for YGR, etc.

― Wimmels, Tuesday, March 1, 2016 2:59 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

the argument that "he's just a minor figure in indie music, there CAN'T be a power dynamic there" is the most fucking bizarre thing I have read in this thread and that's a high bar.

a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 22:36 (nine months ago) Permalink

also, if you think a puff-piece interview in phoenix new times with the answer "oh, well, I just felt it was time to try something else" is the more credible answer here, then you know very little about journalism

a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Tuesday, 1 March 2016 22:38 (nine months ago) Permalink

why does "innocent until proven guilty" not apply here

because this is not a court of law, it's the internet

― Οὖτις, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It doesn't have to be the internet at all - just not a court of law. We aren't considering evidence in a case over a number of days, and "Swans bro" wouldn't be considered to sit in the jury.

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 1 March 2016 22:45 (nine months ago) Permalink

Of course the "innocent until proven guilty” concept (which comes up a lot in conversations about of sexual abuse, even when criminal charges are not involved) doesn't apply here.

“Beyond a reasonable doubt” is a legal standard used exclusively in criminal cases and is the highest evidentiary standard in all of American law -- so it makes sense that, in that context, there is a “presumption of innocence” that puts the burden of proof on the accuser. After all, the court is potentially incarcerating or even executing someone.

But the evidentiary standards used in other legal cases is far lower; often it's "a preponderance of the evidence," meaning “more likely than not.”

Like, a court of law could take your kids away from you if they’re 51% convinced you abused or neglected them. To suggest that a vastly higher standard should apply to conversation is at best misguided.

dc, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 00:30 (nine months ago) Permalink

so fucking otm

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 00:32 (nine months ago) Permalink

hell even ILX itself usually doesn't put most other issues up to such scrutiny.

you are no man. take the balls. (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 00:38 (nine months ago) Permalink

I love that I read Wimmel's post until I blanched at "two (credible) women", immediately stopped reading, scrolled down & the next post but one was Adam Bruneau blanching at the same thing

bernard snowy, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 02:40 (nine months ago) Permalink

It's enough to make me want to start a band called Two Credible Women, except that I'm not a woman, and I don't want it to be one of 'those bands'

bernard snowy, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 02:47 (nine months ago) Permalink

also, if you think a puff-piece interview in phoenix new times with the answer "oh, well, I just felt it was time to try something else" is the more credible answer here, then you know very little about journalism

or human beings and their behaviour

pantsuit aficionado (stevie), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 08:51 (nine months ago) Permalink

Power dynamics exist pretty much any time 2 human beings are in the same place

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 13:38 (nine months ago) Permalink

^^^^

jason waterfalls (gbx), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 14:08 (nine months ago) Permalink

I am only speaking of it now because after being accused of "lynching" Thomas,

i think i missed what this refers to ... was this part discussed in another thread?

sarahell, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 14:43 (nine months ago) Permalink

Yeah I've been confused abt that

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 14:53 (nine months ago) Permalink

don't think it was discussed here

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 15:06 (nine months ago) Permalink

Prior to her facebook post about Gira, she had accused Thomas Sayer Ellis of sexual harassment.

Brooklyn Vegan has a fairly comprehensive overview:

http://www.brooklynvegan.com/larkin-grimm-ac/

I think it's worth reading everything to really get a sense of the dynamic of what's going on. But to rephrase Grimm's quote, "I'm getting a lot of shit for the sexual harassment accusation I recently filed because the man involved is black, so *for no other reason* ["I am only speaking of it now because after being accused of "lynching" Thomas"] I am going to accuse someone who is white of rape."

And I'll say once again, that I have no idea what happened 8 years ago, and part of me doubts if Grimm or Gira do either. I don't think either of them are particularly credible. But the idea that Grimm's story "rings true" or anything like that is insane.

dlp9001, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 15:14 (nine months ago) Permalink

Dude, that is straight up bullshit

just1n3, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 16:27 (nine months ago) Permalink

I'm not sure which part is bullshit. The full quote is: "My story with Michael Gira is an absolute tragedy that I have kept secret for too long. I am only speaking of it now because after being accused of "lynching" Thomas, I cannot ethically keep Michael's secret any longer. He's a white guy, and his crime was far worse than what Thomas did to me or Margaret."

BV has pretty much everything pertinent, including a discussion that's not that different from the one here.

dlp9001, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 16:35 (nine months ago) Permalink

That's quite different to your "rephrase"

Mark G, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 16:36 (nine months ago) Permalink

I'd say not, but really this is turning more into a Rorschach test than anything else.

dlp9001, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 17:06 (nine months ago) Permalink

you said it

contenderizer, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 17:10 (nine months ago) Permalink

nomar, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 17:23 (nine months ago) Permalink

dlp, you are saying that Larkin's story is false. "The idea that Grimm's story 'rings true' or anything like that is insane" = you do not believe this woman. That is your prerogative, but an anti-misogynist will unequivocally believe the woman in this instance, as statistically and sociologically, there is no reason not to. Gira framed this as "a regrettable mistake", Grimm framed it as "I was raped". Ghomeshi framed his activities as "some may find it perverted, others might find it enticing", his victims framed it as "he beat the shit out of me without consent". You are picking your side and it is not the side of anti-misogyny.

got a long list of ILXors (fgti), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 17:34 (nine months ago) Permalink

What fgti said.

Ned Raggett, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 17:39 (nine months ago) Permalink

That is not correct. Story doesn't ring true has nothing to do with what actually happened. I've been painfully clear on that.

Within a week or so, I'd guess that either someone else will come out with another accusation against Gira, or they won't.

dlp9001, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 17:43 (nine months ago) Permalink

Above, the speculation was that her story felt true, and his felt false, especially because he (supposedly) changed his story.

dlp9001, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 17:44 (nine months ago) Permalink

That does seem fairly likely, yes.
xp

schlep and back trio (anagram), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 17:45 (nine months ago) Permalink

i think it's a tad unfair to pin dlp as a misogynist based on the fact that he's questioning grimm herself saying "im saying this bcuz ppl are mad i accused a blk guy of things"

kurt schwitterz, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 17:45 (nine months ago) Permalink

nostradamus here

nomar, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 17:45 (nine months ago) Permalink

heh yeah really putting a stake in the ground there

xps

goole, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 17:48 (nine months ago) Permalink

I don't think it makes logical sense to say that Larkin's story is only legitimate if Gira raped other people. I know what rape looks like in the 24-hour news cycle but I don't think you can use that as a template to determine what is rape and what isn't unless you are arguing that serial rapists are real rapists and someone who had sex with someone without their consent once is not.

Also, this is a no-win situation for everyone involved:

- If Larkin is lying/misrepresenting what happened, she comes out the other end as a duplicitous person willing to ruin someone to protect herself from charges of racism and Gira has to rebuild a reputation shredded by a false accusation.
- If Larkin is telling the truth, she comes out the other end as a person who has been raped by one man, sexually assaulted by another, and accused of being a racist for speaking up about the sexual assault, while Gira comes out as a rapist.

I don't see what upside lying brings Larkin, so right now I believe she is telling the truth.

i like to trump and i am crazy (DJP), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 17:55 (nine months ago) Permalink

Nobody is calling dlp a misogynist, I am saying that he is not an anti-misogynist

got a long list of ILXors (fgti), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 17:57 (nine months ago) Permalink

dlp, did Michael Gira rape Larkin Grimm, yes or no

got a long list of ILXors (fgti), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 17:58 (nine months ago) Permalink

Based on the facts in front of you

got a long list of ILXors (fgti), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 17:58 (nine months ago) Permalink

Facts include Gira "a regrettable mistake" and Grimm "he put his penis in me no condom without consent"

got a long list of ILXors (fgti), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 17:58 (nine months ago) Permalink

Neither one seems particularly believable, and only they were there. Life is like that sometimes.

I'll throw Gira to the wolves as fast as the next person if the story changes.

dlp9001, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 18:01 (nine months ago) Permalink

dude if you're holding out for watertight evidence one way or the other you're probably not going to get it. but that would be more relevant if you were on an actual putative jury.

if you're not, staking out an opinion - obviously without all possible evidence! - is simply staking out a political stance. is it more important to uphold the status quo, the default, whereby victims of rape face an uphill struggle to be believed, to not be labelled crazy, let alone to win actual court cases? or is it important, politically, to assert belief in victims, to help create a climate where we can, as a society, decrease the shaming and the stigma that currently attaches itself to them?

that's even before you go into the statistics re: numbers of "women who falsely cry rape" vs "rapists", and the plausibility of the accounts they've both put forward.

cher guevara (lex pretend), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 18:14 (nine months ago) Permalink

i thought her statement on race was re: the self-questioning she did after she called out a black man for sexual assault, having been silent about a white man's rape for years, and her realisation that remaining silent in that context would be the racist act

cher guevara (lex pretend), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 18:16 (nine months ago) Permalink

^^^

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 18:17 (nine months ago) Permalink

I don't see how you can read this as being driven entirely by self-questioning:

I will give you some history about why I am sharing the story about Thomas Sayers Ellis’s abusive behavior now. I didn’t always stand up for myself. Rape is a loaded word. No man wants to be a rapist. It implies cowardice as well as violence. It undermines the sexual power and magnetism that every man would like to have. No woman wants to be known as a rape victim, either. I want to be known for my strength, intelligence, and talent. Not known as a victim. My story with Michael Gira is an absolute tragedy that I have kept secret for too long. I am only speaking of it now because after being accused of “lynching” Thomas, I cannot ethically keep Michael’s secret any longer. He’s a white guy, and his crime was far worse than what Thomas did to me or Margaret.

i like to trump and i am crazy (DJP), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 18:24 (nine months ago) Permalink

(I mean, self-questioning is self-evidently there, but it appears there were also some external accusations she was responding to.)

i like to trump and i am crazy (DJP), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 18:25 (nine months ago) Permalink

I don't see what upside lying brings Larkin

Unless she's a sociopath who also is using this as damage control re: accusations of racism and oh yeah enjoys seeing her name in print

but those are all longshots, of course

Wimmels, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 18:26 (nine months ago) Permalink

the people who asserting Gira's innocence here -- what does the "regrettable mistake" line make you infer happened?

sarahell, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 18:29 (nine months ago) Permalink

You've never had--or have known anyone who has had--a consensual sexual relationship that could be considered a "regrettable mistake?"

Wimmels, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 18:40 (nine months ago) Permalink

Maybe "getting involved with an artist on my roster when I have a wife and kids" is the regrettable mistake he is referring to?

Wimmels, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 18:41 (nine months ago) Permalink

and oh yeah enjoys seeing her name in print

i think you slept through women's studies classes

nomar, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 18:41 (nine months ago) Permalink

Given his prickly and vehement defense ("slanderous lie" etc) the previous day, this is how I read it, anyway. Not saying that's the truth, only that that's what I figure he meant

Wimmels, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 18:42 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp

Wimmels, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 18:42 (nine months ago) Permalink

and oh yeah enjoys seeing her name in print

maybe you should take these thoughts of yours to https://www.reddit.com/r/TheRedPill/

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 18:44 (nine months ago) Permalink

Longshot? 2 adults in a too small space, both asleep drunkenly one reads the other's unconscious body movement as a come on. The other is unaware because asleep. Excuse would have to do with the drunken semi consciousness and subsequently be a regrettable mistake?

Stevolende, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 18:55 (nine months ago) Permalink

You've never had--or have known anyone who has had--a consensual sexual relationship that could be considered a "regrettable mistake?"

― Wimmels, Wednesday, March 2, 2016 1:40 PM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Maybe "getting involved with an artist on my roster when I have a wife and kids" is the regrettable mistake he is referring to?

so you think in the wake of an accusation of rape, with a bunch of people waiting to hear his response, michael gira chose to address it by referring to a "regrettable mistake", with the assumption that everyone reading it would understand that to mean that the sex was consensual, while the broader relationship itself was the mistake. there is a one is a ten fucking trillion chance that he would commit

Given his prickly and vehement defense ("slanderous lie" etc) the previous day, this is how I read it, anyway. Not saying that's the truth, only that that's what I figure he meant

this whole thing is definitely a rorschach test. what do you think of the moon landing? fake, right? there's a one in five trillion chance it was fake, so higher than the chances that gira's "regrettable mistake" was an incredibly fucking confusing reference to their broader relationship rather than to the very serious, explicit, defined thing he was being accused of.

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 19:01 (nine months ago) Permalink

Then how do you square the initial response (again, "slanderous lie," also Jennifer Gira's threats about 'proving' that the accusation was a lie, etc) with Gira's actual statement not 24 hours later? I agree it isn't clear, but...it isn't clear.

Wimmels, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 19:05 (nine months ago) Permalink

we're still waiting on all this "proof" correct?

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 19:12 (nine months ago) Permalink

I'm gonna step off this convo, as somebody who is friends with Larkin I don't think I'm equipped to participate in this conversation without wanting to murder myself and everyone else

got a long list of ILXors (fgti), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 19:12 (nine months ago) Permalink

i don't believe gira's response is unclear. i think "regrettable mistake" is about as far as he's going to go, because big surprise, he's not going to admit to raping someone. but even if you did think that gira's responses were unclear and wavering...then that's reason to distrust his accuser (who has nothing to gain from this, unless you seriously think that all of this was a plot to allow her to gain additional listeners to the song she posted on bandcamp the other day? which...wait...i think you DO believe)?

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 19:13 (nine months ago) Permalink

fgti thanks for your posts

nomar, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 19:13 (nine months ago) Permalink

^

Karl Malone, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 19:14 (nine months ago) Permalink

if you're not [holding out for watertight evidence], staking out an opinion - obviously without all possible evidence! - is simply staking out a political stance.

this is true & key. but does every real-world situation of a given generic type demand precisely the same political response from everyone who cares? i ask cuz, where political ends are concerned, i suspect that some cases are better suited to the application of certain tactics than others.

question then: "is this particular case a good candidate for immediate and public politicization?" some will say "yes" simply because a woman has accused a man of rape, and that's enough. tactically, though, i'm inclined to hold back and see how things break over the next few days/weeks.

i'm not accusing larkin, not poking holes her story, not leaping to michael's defense. just steepling my fingers atm. while i'm not all that concerned about the political significance of what i type into this little box here, i am a fan of knowing something before i say anything.

all of which is why i'm glad folks like fgti are here to comment from a position of real understanding. thanks, and sorry it's been rough.

contenderizer, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 19:50 (nine months ago) Permalink

Xps it's bullshit bc there isn't a single element of larkins story that DOESN'T ring entirely true. I bet at least half the woman I know have been in a similar situation at least once in their lives.

You have no clue, no fucking clue, what you're talking about.

just1n3, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 19:55 (nine months ago) Permalink

this is true & key. but does every real-world situation of a given generic type demand precisely the same political response from everyone who cares? i ask cuz, where political ends are concerned, i suspect that some cases are better suited to the application of certain tactics than others.

why oh why do some people suddenly get really philosophical about the ~contingent nature of knowledge gained via discourse rather than by immediate experience~ when the subject is rape?

does one read about a bus crash in pakistan in the paper and suddenly think, wow, these words on the page look so clear, but actually i have no unmediated grasp of the event conveyed in them, how am i to be sure any of these so-called bus crash victims even existed??

so what does this highly specific kind of skepticism that pops up whenever women talk about abuse really mean hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

goole, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:06 (nine months ago) Permalink

Larkin has apparently lied about her relationship with Gira before, in a number of interviews four years after the incident, which people should really read as it's not just one "puff piece." I wonder how we decide that someone is suddenly telling the truth. Nothing about Gira's career screams "credible person." He used to tell (maybe still does) stories about being in prison that definitely made me wonder what exactly happened.

For all the people looking for motivations for recent comments on both sides, I think that both of them got caught up in rapid-fire exchanges on facebook and didn't think a lot about what they were saying. At some point lawyers presumably got involved, and it all goes quiet. That's not at all unusual.

I don't think we'll ever see the "proof," that's pretty obvious.

And if I were friends with either party, I probably wouldn't be involved in online conversations about it either. fgti, that's kind of crucial information that might have gone in post #1, not post #last.

dlp9001, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:08 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp to goole - thank u for saying that much more clearly than I could have

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:09 (nine months ago) Permalink

And sleeve/goole, this skepticism pops up about car crashes all the fucking time. People lie all the time. The idea that it's restricted to abuse is, once again, just wrong.

dlp9001, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:12 (nine months ago) Permalink

We're in the middle of a complete change in the way we view policing because everyone in the world just recently discovered that, wow, police lie all the time.

dlp9001, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:14 (nine months ago) Permalink

does one read about a bus crash in pakistan in the paper and suddenly think, wow, these words on the page look so clear, but actually i have no unmediated grasp of the event conveyed in them, how am i to be sure any of these so-called bus crash victims even existed??

Yes, this is exactly the same thing

Wimmels, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:15 (nine months ago) Permalink

Clearly it isn't.

Mark G, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:32 (nine months ago) Permalink

xpost
does one read about a bus crash in pakistan in the paper and suddenly think, wow, these words on the page look so clear, but actually i have no unmediated grasp of the event conveyed in them, how am i to be sure any of these so-called bus crash victims even existed??

Am typing this while faced w/ a pile of beloved Swans CDs I don't imagine I'll ever want to listen to again - but this is pretty much a standard 'postmodern position', isn't it, eg baudrillard's 'the gulf war did not take place'? And this whole calamity has totally been 'mediated' - we know of it through social media, are 'discussing' it here via a wholly imaginary conversational space on the interweb; right or wrong, plenty of ppl are sceptical abt the 'reality' of cyberspace discourse.

I believe Anita Hill.

Chicamaw (Ward Fowler), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:40 (nine months ago) Permalink

Look I could trot out the facts, that rape accusations are almost never false, that "getting the courts involved" simply results in more invasion of privacy (and so few convictions), I could also talk about how that ultimately Your Opinion means Nothing in this debate, and neither does mine, but that The Collective Opinion Of The World matters a fuck of a lot, and right now the world tends to favour the accused rather than the accuser, and that believing the victim in these situations is not at all weird or revolutionary, but a simple and logical response to the statistics of rape cases, and has no bearing on whether or not "Talker" continues to be my favourite album...

But more to the point, why the fuck do people have such a problem understanding this basic, simple idea? Why do I get called out whenever I am moved to type a completely non-controversial opinion about rape culture? I fucking know why and people won't talk about it. You haven't fucked somebody who is drunk? I have, I've totally been in situations where lines of consent have become blurred, both with myself as a victim and with myself as a potential rapist. You don't think I sometimes lie awake wondering if this ex or that might re-frame a (what I thought was) consensual encounter as a rape? This fear is missing the whole fucking point, tho.

The whole POINT of this debate, of trying to make an effort to believe women, is to remove the stigma of something so prevalent and so common, on both the sides of victim and abusers, so that ten years from now when [an ILXor] gets accused of rape, we can believe the woman, hold [ILXor] accountable, understand that rape is as common as drunk driving, and occurs in all manner of power dynamics, and is as much a product of Our Culture as it is Bad People Who Rape, and not wave our hands about "see what the courts say" or any other such bullshit. People get drunk and breach laws of consent. It happens, I'm sure I've done it, and I'm sure I've had it done to me, and basically if you're gonna drink and fuck then you're leaving yourself open to making "regrettable mistakes" which, if the victim should care enough, or be affected by it enough, may decide that you need to be publicly confronted.

got a long list of ILXors (fgti), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:41 (nine months ago) Permalink

This actually isn't about rape culture. It's about your friend and Michael Gira. Neither one comes off with much credibility.

dlp9001, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:44 (nine months ago) Permalink

if someone comes up to me and says "someone just hit my car" or "someone stole my lawnmower" or "i was at a party and someone sexually assaulted me", my first instinct is to believe them. however only one of those instances has an entire subculture devoted to the idea that this particular crime is not rarely but often and perhaps even MOSTLY lied about, and some of the reasons often include:

- she wants attention
- she regrets the consensual sex
- i think she maybe lied a couple times before
- well their relationship is complicated
- she's got a new song coming out with a similar subject

among many many other hoops people jump through.

nomar, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:46 (nine months ago) Permalink

This actually isn't about rape culture.

please stop posting

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:49 (nine months ago) Permalink

believing the victim in these situations is not at all weird or revolutionary, but a simple and logical response to the statistics of rape cases

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:50 (nine months ago) Permalink

This actually isn't about rape culture. This is about ethics in ILX opinionating.

nomar, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:50 (nine months ago) Permalink

I bet at least half the woman I know have been in a similar situation at least once in their lives.

Totally! It's one of the most common scenarios as far as rape goes.

we can believe the woman, hold [ILXor] accountable, understand that rape is as common as drunk driving, and occurs in all manner of power dynamics, and is as much a product of Our Culture as it is Bad People Who Rape, and not wave our hands about "see what the courts say" or any other such bullshit. People get drunk and breach laws of consent

yep.

sarahell, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:52 (nine months ago) Permalink

why is this thread still going

Οὖτις, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:53 (nine months ago) Permalink

I think I said the same thing way upthread.

dlp9001, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:56 (nine months ago) Permalink

then why do you keep posting

HYPERLINK TO RAP GENIUS (BradNelson), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 20:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

why oh why do some people suddenly get really philosophical about the ~contingent nature of knowledge gained via discourse rather than by immediate experience~ when the subject is rape?

― goole, Wednesday, March 2, 2016 12:06 PM (39 minutes ago)

pfft, if you'd been paying any attention at all over the last decade or so, you'd know that i get "really philosophical about the ~contingent nature of knowledge...~ when the subject is" every goddam thing in the universe. it's my only shtick!

the "you're only [asking questions/failing to pass an immediate verdict] because the crime is rape" line is complete bullshit when trotted out as a knee-jerk deflection. rape allegations do attract a unique and poisonous kind of bullshit "skepticism", absolutely, but that doesn't make everyone who ever reserves judgment a fucking enemy agent.

contenderizer, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 21:02 (nine months ago) Permalink

ftr i wasn't really posting contra you in the particular, just the tendency seen generally

goole, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 21:09 (nine months ago) Permalink

if someone comes up to me and says "someone just hit my car" or "someone stole my lawnmower" or "i was at a party and someone sexually assaulted me", my first instinct is to believe them. however only one of those instances has an entire subculture devoted to the idea that this particular crime is not rarely but often and perhaps even MOSTLY lied about..

okay, true, but again, that doesn't mean that anything short of full support of all allegations in every case = alliance w/ redpill assholes.

and the difference between accusing "someone" and accusing a specific person is huge. if someone i don't know comes up to me and accuses some other person i don't know of some crime, my first response is typically not gonna be to simply believe them. i'll listen, think, gather info and only then decide whether there's even a reason for me to begin forming an opinion.

like, say i'm at a party. some strange dude comes up and points out another stranger standing across the room. "that guy's name is david," he says. "seven years ago, he killed a friend of mine, took a knife and slit his throat."

what am i supposed to think? what would you?

contenderizer, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 21:15 (nine months ago) Permalink

stop

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 21:17 (nine months ago) Permalink

we can believe the woman, hold [ILXor] accountable

woah i wasn't following the thread too closely, is an iLxor accused or rape?

flopson, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 21:17 (nine months ago) Permalink

like, say i'm at a party. some strange dude comes up and points out another stranger standing across the room. "that guy's name is david," he says. "seven years ago, he killed a friend of mine, took a knife and slit his throat."

what am i supposed to think? what would you?

― contenderizer, Wednesday, March 2, 2016 9:15 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i don't know what you would do but i would

immediately

nomar, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 21:20 (nine months ago) Permalink

woah i wasn't following the thread too closely, is an iLxor accused or rape?

No.

i like to trump and i am crazy (DJP), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 21:39 (nine months ago) Permalink

and the difference between accusing "someone" and accusing a specific person is huge. if someone i don't know comes up to me and accuses some other person i don't know of some crime, my first response is typically not gonna be to simply believe them. i'll listen, think, gather info and only then decide whether there's even a reason for me to begin forming an opinion.

This was covered upthread:

If I told you that someone stole my car, would you believe me? Or would you come up with convoluted theories about how I just want attention or that I dumped it somewhere for the insurance?

This is a terrible analogy, I realise, but for all the men who cry "innocent until proven guilty", I would like to point out that people believe victims of crime all the time. It is this crime that they doubt, this crime that they hound women for speaking out about.

― emil.y, Friday, February 26, 2016 12:39 PM (24 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Yes, of course I'd believe you, but that analogy doesn't work here. If instead of "someone stole my car" you told me "(specific person x) just stole my car!," I'd probably have to ask a few follow up questions before rounding up a posse.

― Wimmels, Friday, February 26, 2016 12:52 PM (5 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Even, "someone stole my car" is subject to question. Sorry, but people lie about all sorts of things, all the time. That applies to everyone in this story. The idea that we can somehow guess who's lying and who's telling the truth is insane. Unless you have proof, you don't know. I hate speculative conversations like this.

If someone said that their car was stolen, I'd have no opinion at all until I looked into the details.

I have no idea what happened. Probably nobody else does, other than the parties involved. Threads like this are like wondering about trees falling in the forest.

― dlp9001, Friday, February 26, 2016 1:02 PM (5 days ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Wimmels, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 21:40 (nine months ago) Permalink

the tree that fell in the forest definitely made a fucking sound, though, is the thing

Toof Seteltha (Sufjan Grafton), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 21:42 (nine months ago) Permalink

If there was a big problem with people who'd had stolen cars not being believed about that crime occuring, or being implicitly or explicitly blamed for getting their car stolen, or a power dynamic throughout social institutions biased against people who'd had their cars stolen, so that car thieves had low conviction rates, and even some people claiming publicly that car theft isn't possible... then it might be a fucking idea to acknowledge that, look at the #notallcartakers view and not add to the existing bias.

Gira has adopted this position or would have been advised to adopt this position legally regardless of the facts because he knows a lot of his fanboys will have empathy for him. And he knows it's his word versus hers. And he knows men will believe him.

lilcraigyboi (Craigo Boingo), Wednesday, 2 March 2016 22:49 (nine months ago) Permalink

I'm several degrees of separation closer to the subjects of this rape/crime/fiasco than is typical, so I'm uncomfortably forced to REDACT REDACT REDACT.

I believe Larkin. Whether or not the rape happened ten years ago or ten days ago is irrelevant. Jackie Fuchs had to wait until Fowley was dead before she felt it was time to come forward with the Ugly Truth. I think it's positive that more women are coming forward in face of what happens when the Internet becomes their last resort. Have you thrown away your Led Zeppelin records yet?

Anyway, I just unsubscribed from the Serial podcast.

Elvis Telecom, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 23:04 (nine months ago) Permalink

oh my fucking god, dlp, YOU DON'T GET IT

like goole or ftig said, this isn't about individual opinions, the important thing is the general consensus, and we want the average general consensus when a victim says they were sexually assaulted to be 'yes, we believe you'. bc right now, rape culture - YES, RAPE CULTURE - maintains this status quo that women are sneaky bitches who manipulate men through sex.

and there was NO rapid fire back and forth - larkin's posts have been incredibly thoughtful, well considered, articulate, generous and important.

just1n3, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 23:08 (nine months ago) Permalink

I think that just based on that last sentence (which I think is entirely incorrect) there isn't enough common ground to really discuss this.

dlp9001, Wednesday, 2 March 2016 23:46 (nine months ago) Permalink

Then why don't you stop?

Frederik B, Thursday, 3 March 2016 00:08 (nine months ago) Permalink

fgti's last post is abt the most otm thing I've ever read here

albvivertine, Thursday, 3 March 2016 00:19 (nine months ago) Permalink

xps then you've clearly made up your mind that larkin isn't a reliable witness to her own rape, and that her motives are highly questionable (which has already been covered up thread by someone else). it's this kind of rape-culture rhetoric that needs to be stomped on and out.

just1n3, Thursday, 3 March 2016 00:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

i really truly hope you - or anyone you care about - are never put in a similar situation, where so many people don't believe you've been assaulted. i wouldn't wish that feeling on anybody, bc it's horrific.

just1n3, Thursday, 3 March 2016 01:02 (nine months ago) Permalink

i really truly hope you - or anyone you care about - are never put in a similar situation, where so many people don't believe you've been assaulted been accused of a horrible crime you may not have committed. i wouldn't wish that feeling on anybody, bc it's horrific.

― just1n3, Wednesday, March 2, 2016 8:02 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Wimmels, Thursday, 3 March 2016 02:12 (nine months ago) Permalink

jesus christ why do you think you're blowing anybody's minds with the inane shit you keep posting

Neanderthal, Thursday, 3 March 2016 02:17 (nine months ago) Permalink

even after five or more spoonfeedings

Neanderthal, Thursday, 3 March 2016 02:17 (nine months ago) Permalink

Not everyone agrees with you, and people who disagree with you aren't necessarily stupid or uninformed.

As far as fgti, I'm moderately curious why you/they wouldn't identify yourself/themself as a friend of Larkin when first entering the conversation. That just seems like something I would have mentioned if it was me, rather than dropping it right before exiting the discussion.

What I'm pretty sure about is that the original accusation doesn't automatically ring true, not that it's necessarily false. I know that's nuanced, but I think people on this board are smart enough to understand the difference.

dlp9001, Thursday, 3 March 2016 02:26 (nine months ago) Permalink

you both are completely missing the point of everyone else in this thread, and you know it, you just keep refusing to acknowledge it. you're hoping that everyone else besides you two will bow out and you'll somehow 'win' this thread by getting the last word in.

i'm more than willing to risk gira's reputation than i am to contribute to rape culture by repeatedly accusing larkin of unreliable narratives (esp when her narrative IS so believable).

just1n3, Thursday, 3 March 2016 02:33 (nine months ago) Permalink

Village Voice says he did it:

http://www.villagevoice.com/music/as-a-woman-who-loves-swans-i-believe-larkin-grimm-8336936

He was a guru to the article's author as well, which is an odd coincidence.

It did occur to me that if he were on trial, he'd be utterly fucked. Just quote his lyrics and it's obvious he's a monster. VV author goes that route a bit.

dlp9001, Thursday, 3 March 2016 02:36 (nine months ago) Permalink

Weirdly, there's no Thomas Sayers Ellis thread. What's up with him, actually?

dlp9001, Thursday, 3 March 2016 02:42 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp No one is trying to "win" anything; I think some of us are merely trotting out the old "we don't know, and neither do you" chestnut, which is a logical and reasonable and grown-up reaction to this situation. A real jury in a real world would seize on Larkin's whole "See? I'm accusing a white guy now" stuff, as well as her response in that--what are we calling it?--"puff piece" in which she seems to suggest that the split with the label was amicable. These two things alone make her far less "reliable" imo than some very reactionary and sanctimonious people here are willing to admit.

Wimmels, Thursday, 3 March 2016 02:42 (nine months ago) Permalink

HYPERLINK TO RAP GENIUS (BradNelson), Thursday, 3 March 2016 02:47 (nine months ago) Permalink

'Reactionary'

scarcity festival (Jon not Jon), Thursday, 3 March 2016 02:54 (nine months ago) Permalink

I hope people on that jury would be smart enough to understand the difference between a rapist's artistic practice and the facts regarding the rape.

Regarding your moderate curiosity, dlp, I never blew in here with an "I'm Larkin's Friend" because it's simply not relevant. I'm friends with rapists, too. Somebody upthread stated "who would ever come forward and admit they're a rapist?" I would, absolutely, if one of my sexual partners told me publicly or privately that he felt the sex we had was non-consensual. In the aftermath of the Ghomeshi accusations, two Facebook friends came forward to state that they had, in the recent past, been accused of rape, privately, and gone through an accountability process with the people they'd raped and the community the rape had affected. They talked freely and openly about the event, the process, their feelings about the process, and their victims voiced their support for their transparency and courage in publicly admitting their crimes.

"We don't know and neither do you" = "I don't take the events that this accuser is stating as fact". Even when, in this case, the rapist admits to sex. We do fucking know, you unreasonable child. Two people, accuser and accused, have corroborated that sex happened, and one calls it a mistake, and the other calls it rape. "His penis was in me". What do you want? A sex tape?

Anyway this has nothing to do with Swans at this point, a band I've never thought to give a shit about except for Michael's exemplary production work on albums by US Maple and Larkin Grimm

got a long list of ILXors (fgti), Thursday, 3 March 2016 02:57 (nine months ago) Permalink

Being a friend is pretty pertinent.

What is up with the accusation that kicked this all off? That seems to have vanished. US Maple>Swans we agree.

dlp9001, Thursday, 3 March 2016 03:00 (nine months ago) Permalink

are you still arguing this?

Van Horn Street, Thursday, 3 March 2016 03:41 (nine months ago) Permalink

DFTT

lute bro (brimstead), Thursday, 3 March 2016 04:11 (nine months ago) Permalink

God, dlp, please JUST STOP TALKING.

Interesting. No, wait, the other thing: tedious. (Trayce), Thursday, 3 March 2016 04:21 (nine months ago) Permalink

i sort of wish there was a thread where we could talk about political strategy & tactics wrt this stuff. like whether or not it's really wise/productive to demand that all would-be allies close ranks and publicly "believe the accuser" whenever rape allegations are made. i totally get why that approach might seem attractive (compassionate, necessary, decent, etc). but the brute-force insistence strikes me as potentially counterproductive and kind of depressingly anti-intellectual besides. maybe the anti-intellectualism is politically expedient, i dunno...

this isn't the place for it, and given past experience, i can't see any thread i start on the subject going well. so, i guess that's that. ftr, i have no inclination at this point to doubt larkin's account and am kind of revolted by the not-so-subtle attempts of certain posters to cast her as a liar.

contenderizer, Thursday, 3 March 2016 07:34 (nine months ago) Permalink

i don't get why ftgi being her friend is relevant?? i'm not her friend, i had no idea who she was until i saw ned's posts on fb about this, and i totally believe her.

the thing is, there is no culture surrounding men being accused of sexual assault but there IS a culture surrounding women being sexually assaulted and then accused of lying about it. it's called... rape culture. and you are a part of it now, even if you weren't before.

just1n3, Thursday, 3 March 2016 07:43 (nine months ago) Permalink

even if incontrovertible proof came out that their was proper consent, i wouldn't regret immediately and consistently believing larkin's story.

just1n3, Thursday, 3 March 2016 07:45 (nine months ago) Permalink

I don't think dip knows what 'rings true' means.

Frederik B, Thursday, 3 March 2016 08:57 (nine months ago) Permalink

But then again, he should just shut up.

Frederik B, Thursday, 3 March 2016 08:57 (nine months ago) Permalink

but the brute-force insistence strikes me as potentially counterproductive and kind of depressingly anti-intellectual besides. maybe the anti-intellectualism is politically expedient, i dunno...

it's compensatory, to be sure. it has bothered me on occasion (very very rarely) and only in cases when the accuser and accusations are obviously delusional and false, (based on personal knowledge of the person in question).

sarahell, Thursday, 3 March 2016 09:00 (nine months ago) Permalink

This is pretty much where dlp reveals himself to be a cheap troll & nothing more, fgti drops some very real stuff about friends in his life that have raped and that aftermath and all you do is play high school social studies class mock trial lawyer:

Being a friend is pretty pertinent.

What is up with the accusation that kicked this all off? That seems to have vanished. US Maple>Swans we agree.

― dlp9001, Wednesday, March 2, 2016 9:00 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 3 March 2016 12:00 (nine months ago) Permalink

Honestly never heard of prison abolitionism. Just been reading a little about it. I suppose most in the movement aren't in favour of scrapping it entirely?

Robert Adam Gilmour, Thursday, 3 March 2016 12:47 (nine months ago) Permalink

Gira's ex-wife Siobhan Duffy, who figures heavily into Grimm's account of what happened between her and Gira, has been speaking out on Facebook in defense of Gira.

http://observer.com/2016/03/i-stand-with-kesha-why-men-should-address-musics-rape-culture-problem-right-now/

She posted a link to the article above with a note to see the comments, and sure enough, she shared her side of the story: http://i.imgur.com/ywakzna.png

"Hello. My name is Siobhan Duffy and I am Michael's ex wife. The wife married to him (together for 12 years) while Larkin and Michael worked together. It is shameful what Ms. Grimm has done. Michael is not a rapist. And we will be making a more official statement soon with proof of either her instability and her intent to ruin Michael's life work. Michael and I divorced in 2011. In 2013 Larkin wrote me on Facebook messenger (not a public post) which starts... "Dear Siobhan, I'm Sorry, I'm sorry,i'm so, so sorry for being an immature manipulative untrustworthy whore,losing my way,being constantly high, and not follwoing my conscience when you welcomed me into your home." She goes on to tell me about the drunken night of fooling around that never included coitus. And many people that worked with both Larkin and Michael reveal that she was bragging about it at the time and finding it laughable that he was afraid his wife (me) would find out. She taunted him with telling me. When she wrote to me and spoke to Michael about it, I asked him to remove her from his label out of respect of me. Larkin claims that when she confronted him with rape, which never happened, he removed her from the label. Another false statement. And this one Facebook post has brought his 30 plus career and his name into question? It seems the media does not fact check anything anymore. Making false claims of rape can ruin someone's life, but also it undermines every true report of rape. And as seen from above, Larkin is now trying to capitalize on the current hot topic of rape in the music industry. She even mentions Kesha in her FB post. Yes Larkin, you finally ogt your name in Billboard, but at what price to Michael and his family? Check your FACTS.

And I would like to add that Michael Gira is one of several men being accused by Larkin Grimm of sexual misconduct, all of whom terminated their working relationships with her. Who is the problem?"

Both, this keeps turning into more and more of a mess. Up to this point, I thought Grimm had been handling herself with a remarkable grace and clear-headedness, and to my outsider's perspective, it didn't seem like she would have any reason to lie about what happened. But this statement from Duffy really complicates things. It contradicts most of Grimm's account, and sketchier still is that a comment Grimm left on one of her posts about Duffy asking if it was safe for Gira to be around his daughter after Grimm told her Gira raped her has been deleted. Since this is the internet, naturally someone managed to take a screenshot of it...it was up for days. I remember reading it and feeling sick to my stomach. http://i66.tinypic.com/de613.jpg

dispossessed, Thursday, 3 March 2016 13:36 (nine months ago) Permalink

"Who is the problem?" indeed

bernard snowy, Thursday, 3 March 2016 14:34 (nine months ago) Permalink

Again without wading into speculation about what the actual ~truth~ is, I would like to point out that everything in your post is circumstantial evidence or stuff about the victim's character, except "She goes on to tell me about the drunken night of fooling around that never included coitus" (Siobhan's words--significantly, this is the exact point in the letter where she stops quoting Larkin) which you have interpreted as "contradict[ing] most of" Larkin's story although it's already been made clear throughout the thread that not all parties agree about the definition of "coitus" (&, I would probably add, of "fooling around"). To then connect this to a "sketchier still" deleted (and therefore unverifiable) facebook comment, provided with minimal context (...but she deleted it, so she must be a liar!), is equivocation of the commonest sort.

bernard snowy, Thursday, 3 March 2016 14:41 (nine months ago) Permalink

Question for my fellow SWANS fans....

Regardless of how this is all going to shake out (and will we ever know the full story?), do you feel you're able to continue to listen to Gira's music objectively anymore? I honestly haven't spun any since this story broke (nor have I felt compelled to), but I was quite looking forward to the purported tour-de-force the impending album has been promised to be. Regardless of your stance on the allegations, can you listen to his music without associating all of this?

Alex in NYC, Thursday, 3 March 2016 14:45 (nine months ago) Permalink

I have mostly avoided Swans and AoL music since the allegations. I have found Xiu Xiu to be an acceptable substitute

bernard snowy, Thursday, 3 March 2016 14:52 (nine months ago) Permalink

This 'proof' is really taking it's time, huh?

Frederik B, Thursday, 3 March 2016 14:53 (nine months ago) Permalink

Swans are a band I only feel the urge to listen to once or twice a year under the best of circumstances. I last listened to them several months ago. By the time I'm in the mood to listen to them again, absent an actual criminal trial or something similarly attention-getting, I will probably have forgotten all about this.

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Thursday, 3 March 2016 14:55 (nine months ago) Permalink

Swans are awesome, I'll probably listen to them today

Whiney G. Weingarten, Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:00 (nine months ago) Permalink

i haven't really gotten into this thread at all but i think that posts by fgti, justine, sarahel, and others are excellent and i am inclined to support grimm in this whole thing. the character assassination shit and calling out grimm's alleged mental illness or whatever as reason to be suspect of her statements is really fucked up.

i rarely listen to swans to begin with but i think it is safe to assume that a significant chunk of the artists i listen to have probably done something like gira did, and fgti's outstanding post about drinking, rape, consent i think highlights how common this really is. you can throw out your swans albums if you want but if you think the other artists in your collection are "clean" then you are fucking naive

marcos, Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:02 (nine months ago) Permalink

Bowie's 1987 rape charge is a good analogue - he said/she said, where he says it was consensual but she didn't and he throws round phrases like 'attention seeker' and 'ridiculous'.

suffeeciant attreebution (aldo), Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:07 (nine months ago) Permalink

In fact, his example is potentially worse because at least in Gira/Grimm there seems to have been some kind of relationship at the back of it acknowledged by both parties whereas Bowie's was a drink/drug fuelled one-off event.

suffeeciant attreebution (aldo), Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:09 (nine months ago) Permalink

Also, her claim was easier to refute - she also said Bowie explicitly told her post-assault that he had given her AIDS.

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:13 (nine months ago) Permalink

plus bowie & the underage

gimme some reggae

contenderizer, Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:20 (nine months ago) Permalink

no immediate plans to listen to swans cuz winter

contenderizer, Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:21 (nine months ago) Permalink

user "dispossessed" has made exactly 1 post to ilxor.com

wtf is even going on itt

goole, Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:29 (nine months ago) Permalink

i am not a big swans guy but i went to see them on the last tour
parts were pretty cool like overwhelming sound
but parts felt just really flat and oppressive and dull like a 90s pink floyd show or something

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:29 (nine months ago) Permalink

you just described "To Be Kind"

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:36 (nine months ago) Permalink

even if incontrovertible proof came out that their was proper consent, i wouldn't regret immediately and consistently believing larkin's story.

― just1n3, Thursday, March 3, 2016 2:45 AM (8 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

OK, now this is the most idiotic thing I have ever read

Wimmels, Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:55 (nine months ago) Permalink

who is this terrible poster?

kinder, Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp fortunately nobody ITT cares what you think, at all

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Thursday, 3 March 2016 15:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

maybe I was just referring to the 'there / their' confusion, which my ten year old niece seems to have licked but not the person arguing to discredit a man forever despite the testimony of three credible women and no further accusations against the accused

Wimmels, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:07 (nine months ago) Permalink

you've gone from blind to cruel to petty

goole, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:09 (nine months ago) Permalink

for absolute starters you need to ditch the 'no further accusations' bit ffs

Laertiades (imago), Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:09 (nine months ago) Permalink

there are other boards where your oh-so-fresh typo gags and arbitrary assigning of which women are credible and which aren't will be welcome, try to find them

goole, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:11 (nine months ago) Permalink

wow there are some v toxic posters itt huh

marcos, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:12 (nine months ago) Permalink

fucking hell mods fucking lock this fucking thread

Odysseus, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:15 (nine months ago) Permalink

You gotta be sitting me.

The "poor grammar = UNRELIABLE" method?

Is this a BBcode message board in 2002

Neanderthal, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:16 (nine months ago) Permalink

might be a good idea esp after the mystery poster upthread

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:16 (nine months ago) Permalink

For all the people like Wimmels who are incapable of walking away from a conversation to which they have so little to contribute: it is my sincere hope that your stubborn persistence here attests to a nagging kernel of doubt, buried far beneath the glib surface of your rhetoric & the arrogant confidence you place in a manifestly untrue & self-serving worldview; and that this seed may yet grow into a flourishing beanstalk of earth-shattering revelations & beckon you to undertake a journey of self-discovery that someday, in a few years, leads you to reread the things you wrote here & shake your head sadly in disbelief.

bernard snowy, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:17 (nine months ago) Permalink

OK now we can lock the thread

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:19 (nine months ago) Permalink

you've gone from blind to cruel to petty

this reads like an Elvis Costello lyric

also why is this thread still a thing

Οὖτις, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:30 (nine months ago) Permalink

Oh wimmelpaws

just1n3, Thursday, 3 March 2016 16:51 (nine months ago) Permalink

"a conversation to which they have so little to contribute"

Just a thought -- Wimmel's contributions are just as valid as anyone else's here. Whether you happen to agree with him or not is entirely incidental. It's a public forum, fer cyrin' out loud.

Alex in NYC, Thursday, 3 March 2016 17:08 (nine months ago) Permalink

They can be valid and still worthless. And they are.

Frederik B, Thursday, 3 March 2016 17:18 (nine months ago) Permalink

give em enough rope

jason waterfalls (gbx), Thursday, 3 March 2016 17:18 (nine months ago) Permalink

Btw, how long are people willing to wait for this 'proof'? Gira said this wasn't a 'he said / she said' thing, so talking of it like that is already saying that he's lying.

Frederik B, Thursday, 3 March 2016 17:20 (nine months ago) Permalink

I honestly, at the beginning, thought that Gira probably didn't do it, because otherwise why would he bother talking about 'proof'? That would backfire in a major way. But no.

Frederik B, Thursday, 3 March 2016 17:20 (nine months ago) Permalink

there's a little bit of that worthlessness

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Thursday, 3 March 2016 17:21 (nine months ago) Permalink

Xp to alexNYC -- admittedly I may have been conflating Wimmels with dlp (of the thousand & one "this conversation is stupid & pointless!" posts); but given that Wimmels' last two posts itt were 1. Calling another poster idiotic (no elaboration), and 2. Attempting to discredit an alleged rape survivor's story based on typos, I would argue that those contributions not worth the keyboard they're typed on

bernard snowy, Thursday, 3 March 2016 17:23 (nine months ago) Permalink

A good keyboard can set you back

Laertiades (imago), Thursday, 3 March 2016 17:24 (nine months ago) Permalink

Responding to Alex in NYC's question about listening to Swans going forward. I can say this. I always thought Kim Fowley was an untrustworthy creep and some sort of half-formed musical genius, but after the Jackie story (which immediately did ring true and was backed by witnesses) I consigned him to the dustbin. He probably died the way he deserved to, and I can live without relistening to his albums. Done. It's safe to guess that the Beatles all committed statutory rape, but we'll never know so we'll keep on having lovely Beatles threads.

I could also live without listening to Swans again. It's not a band that's central to my life, though I do think that one of their live albums (Feel Good Now) is the best example in rock history of a live album improving on the original version. I'm not sure how important that is in the grand scheme of things. I've never felt that liking Gira had any particular relationship to liking his music given what it is, but at the same time Boyd Rice apparently has some decent albums that I'm not planning to buy. Ever.

To be brutally honest, I've thought for a long time that Gira's obsession with sex/power dynamics comes from the fact that something probably did happen to him in prison that he's been skirting around for decades.

As far as other stuff, Larkin's comments about why she threw the white guy under the bus aren't encouraging. She had eight years to make this known, and for at least four of them has been completely outside of his influence in terms of her career, but decides to go public right after being kicked out of a band that includes her ex-husband, and after accusing its leader of sexual impropriety also. Which story seems to have vanished from the internet entirely. I really don't know much except for two things:

1. Nobody other than Larkin and Gira knows what happened the night they got drunk and ended up in bed together.
2. The hand wringing, "Oh, everyone who disagrees with me is a sensless monster who didn't take the same women's studies classes that I did" is sad.

Sleeve asked for the thread to be locked. I agree. If more reasonably credible accusations against Gira come out, I'd say he's toast.

dlp9001, Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:03 (nine months ago) Permalink

wrong on nearly every count, thread should have been locked after bernard's post, primarily to prevent you and wimmels from continuing to post horrific garbage, now you've fucked it up again.

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:06 (nine months ago) Permalink

We wouldn't want to listen to people who disagree with us. I think that might have been a Smiths' song.

dlp9001, Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:09 (nine months ago) Permalink

fucking hell mods fucking lock this fucking thread

pantsuit aficionado (stevie), Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:19 (nine months ago) Permalink

Stevie I thought we both agreed life is better when one avoids these threads cmon we should be posting in a djp thread about German toilets like it's 2009 life was good then

Ecomigrant gnomics (darraghmac), Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:27 (nine months ago) Permalink

We wouldn't want to listen to people who disagree with us

Since you apparently don't understand anything, I'll spell it out:

- No one here has a problem listening to people who "disagree" with us
- We have a problem listening to people you use a false 'even-handedness' as a figleaf for treating confessed abuse victims with sneering condescension and thinly-disguised contempt.

Matt DC, Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:37 (nine months ago) Permalink

There really hasn't been any sneering condescension or thinly disguised contempt. I'm sorry you see it that way.

There have been a ton of "you just don't get it" or "For the love of god stop it" posts. I said above that this wasn't going to be a productive thread, and I still think that's the case, and I think everyone agrees at this point.

dlp9001, Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:40 (nine months ago) Permalink

The only person who claims to have taken women's studies classes is wimmelpaws! But he also claims to have been raised in an all-women family.

just1n3, Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:40 (nine months ago) Permalink

I won't have any thinly disguised contempt on this thread.

dlp9001, Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:43 (nine months ago) Permalink

You're right, it's mostly open contempt.

Matt DC, Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:44 (nine months ago) Permalink

too easy, sure, but how could you not?

contenderizer, Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

not even paws. just nubs.

wimmelnubs.

contenderizer, Thursday, 3 March 2016 19:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

Public Castration is a Good Idea
Feel Good Now
Anonymous Bodies In An Empty Room

Just thought some titles might be worth listing. I was at a couple of those gigs too.

Stevolende, Thursday, 3 March 2016 20:19 (nine months ago) Permalink

Maybe we should all just back off until there's a definitive develop in the story. Sorry for reviving.

Alex in NYC, Thursday, 3 March 2016 20:55 (nine months ago) Permalink

developMENT.

Alex in NYC, Thursday, 3 March 2016 20:56 (nine months ago) Permalink

I believe I will stay off the internet for a few days until this whole thing blows over

― Wimmels, Thursday, February 25, 2016 9:01 PM (1 week ago)

I would sooner stay out of it entirely than align myself with an idiotic lynch mob of starstruck dudes blaming the victim. If it happened, it's fucked up and MG should suffer the consequences. But what if it didn't?

― Wimmels, Friday, February 26, 2016 8:14 AM (6 days ago)

I too am withdrawing from this conversation (here and elsewhere), and hope it gets resolved, one way or another.

― Wimmels, Friday, February 26, 2016 8:33 AM (6 days)

just1n3, Thursday, 3 March 2016 21:07 (nine months ago) Permalink

i think YOUR opinions are invalid bc you are clearly a big fat LIAR!

just1n3, Thursday, 3 March 2016 21:08 (nine months ago) Permalink

do consider myself a feminist and an advocate and want to better understand why the rules don't apply here.
― Wimmels, Friday, February 26, 2016 9:29 AM (6 days ago)

many ppl tried explaining why, but you refused to engage in any real discussion about rape culture

I grew up with sisters and a strong mother, took women's studies courses in college, worked in venues that sponsored women's self defense classes, and generally consider myself a strong supporter of women's rights.

then you have even less of an excuse than ppl like dlp for being so ignorant of issues surrounding sexual assault victims telling their stories.

I've seen some vicious, terrible things said about Gira these past few days, despite the fact that two (credible) women have already come out in his defense
― Wimmels, Tuesday, March 1, 2016 11:28 AM (2 days ago)

what makes these two women more credible than larkin? they weren't present when she was raped.

I think some of us are merely trotting out the old "we don't know, and neither do you" chestnut, which is a logical and reasonable and grown-up reaction to this situation.
"See? I'm accusing a white guy now" stuff, as well as her response in that--what are we calling it?--"puff piece" in which she seems to suggest that the split with the label was amicable. These two things alone make her far less "reliable" imo than some very reactionary and sanctimonious people here are willing to admit.
― Wimmels, Wednesday, March 2, 2016 6:42 PM (Yesterday)

why is that so grown-up? i think being aware of bigger issues around abuse of women/power/sex is pretty grown-up.

maybe - just maybe - when larkin gave that interview she wasn't exactly ready to be all "oh well he raped me, sexually harassed me, and then when i tried to confront him, he dropped me". not being willing to tell your story on demand does not make you unreliable. as for the racism stuff - she realized in her own mind that by not telling the gira story, she was unconsciously being racist, so she decided to talk about both. she was at a point in her life where she wouldn't take this shit from TSE, so she was ready to tell the gira story. i don't know why that's so hard to understand.

maybe I was just referring to the 'there / their' confusion, which my ten year old niece seems to have licked but not the person arguing to discredit a man forever despite the testimony of three credible women and no further accusations against the accused

― Wimmels, Thursday, March 3, 2016 8:07 AM (4 hours ago)

duuuuude, really?? this is pretty desparate trolling, at best. how can any of those 3 women provide testimony when they weren't present at the rape? if anything, i find jarboe's 'testimony' unreliable and not credible, given that interview that i think ned quoted - she talks about all this horrible stuff gira does, but how the band just has to put up with bc gira's musical genius is more important than anyone else's hurt egos. sounds like an apologist to me.

just1n3, Thursday, 3 March 2016 21:17 (nine months ago) Permalink

walk away

Οὖτις, Thursday, 3 March 2016 21:19 (nine months ago) Permalink

being pedantic about common typos is even more annoying now because most of the time we're all swype typing with autocorrect on phones anyway

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:02 (nine months ago) Permalink

Idk why they don't just skip the boring evidence stuff in trials and just move on to the English test everybody is waiting for

Neanderthal, Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:13 (nine months ago) Permalink

I know I said I was leaving this alone, but I'm sort of bemused by the fact that Siobhan Duffy's statement is being somewhat blithely written off here. As Michael's ex, she has nothing really to gain by sticking up for him at this stage of the proceedings. Moreover, having lived under the same roof with Ms. Grimm for a period of time, she has greater insight than most. Why isn't her account being taken at the same face value as Ms. Grimm's?

Alex in NYC, Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:15 (nine months ago) Permalink

because she wasn't there?

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:27 (nine months ago) Permalink

because she keeps talking about all this "proof" and doesn't produce it?

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:29 (nine months ago) Permalink

alex honestly if this was like the dude from nickelback & duffy was avril lavigne are you even in the thread asking these questions?

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:29 (nine months ago) Permalink

... because she wasn't there.

xp hah

bernard snowy, Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:30 (nine months ago) Permalink

ffs, just because someone has "nothing to gain" -- which is always debatable, but w/e -- that doesn't automatically mean that they're closer to the truth of the matter!

bernard snowy, Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:31 (nine months ago) Permalink

Pretty sure Michael Gira is still father of her children (not to mention fact that he may be supporting her financially, who knows really) so I'm not sure where this concept that his ex is a dispassionate observer is coming from. Not to mention fact that her post reads like a CARBON COPY of the one from his current wife (which was posted a week ago and alleged incontrovertible proof which has thus far not materialized).

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:38 (nine months ago) Permalink

"because she keeps talking about all this "proof" and doesn't produce it?"

To be fair, that was Gira's current wife who first invoked the oft-cited "proof." Siobhan only mentioned it once.

And Robbie, if it were regarding Nickelback guy and Avril, I'd have never clicked on the link to begin with. As a longtime SWANS fan, I am, of course, bothered by this whole story. By that same token, I want to underscore that that does not immediately render me a hashtag-stamping Gira apologist. I don't know what happened. As is routinely trotted out, NONE OF US WERE THERE.

By Siobhan Duffy was the closest to being there, and certainly as invested in the proceedings as Gira and Grimm. More so than the current Mrs. Gira (whose note was pointedly more aggressive). Ms. Duffy has a history with Ms. Grimm, certainly one more intimate than anyone here. I'm just curious as to why her perspective isn't being taken more seriously, while Ms. Grimm's seems to be taken as gospel.

Alex in NYC, Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:38 (nine months ago) Permalink

just...stop

k3vin k., Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:40 (nine months ago) Permalink

I'm not suggesting that Duffy is a dispassionate observer. For all anyone knows, she could secretly thrill to seeing her ex taken down. But, she's not taking that road.

Alex in NYC, Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:40 (nine months ago) Permalink

In 2013 Larkin wrote me on Facebook messenger (not a public post) which starts... "Dear Siobhan, I'm Sorry, I'm sorry,i'm so, so sorry for being an immature manipulative untrustworthy whore,losing my way,being constantly high, and not follwoing my conscience when you welcomed me into your home." She goes on to tell me about the drunken night of fooling around that never included coitus.

I mean just for a start: this statement would be about 1000x more credible if the part of the message that Siobhan quoted -- the sensational self-abasement of the victim -- had been omitted or summarized, & the part that she summarized ("She goes on to tell me...") were fleshed out to include LARKIN'S ACTUAL DESCRIPTION OF EVENTS CONTRADICTING WHAT SHE NOW SAYS HAPPENED

idk, maybe Gira's all lawyered up or otherwise disinclined to release the "proof" that would exonerate him, but I am kinda skeptical of "Oh yeah, she sent me this ~crazy message~, here you can read the first sentence of it & I will summarize the rest for you"

bernard snowy, Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:41 (nine months ago) Permalink

She goes on to tell me about the drunken night of fooling around that never included coitus = She told me "Michael and I had a drunken night of fooling around that never included coitus", OR, She told me "Michael and I did stuff" and related a story from which coitus was notably absent, OR, She told me that something happened, but her account was incoherent & hard to follow, so I asked Michael & he said coitus did not occur, OR She made vague references to "that night" which I filled in with my own secondhand knowledge etc etc

bernard snowy, Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:48 (nine months ago) Permalink

More so than the current Mrs. Gira (whose note was pointedly more aggressive).

I'd say both notes are pretty aggressive.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:50 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp ... and that really is the last post I'll make here on the subject, because this thread has obviously turned toxic

bernard snowy, Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:51 (nine months ago) Permalink

Also, a note that begins Dear Siobhan, I'm Sorry, I'm sorry,i'm so, so sorry for being an immature manipulative untrustworthy whore,losing my way,being constantly high, and not follwoing my conscience when you welcomed me into your home." could well be meant in a very sarcastic tone (throwing accusations back at someone who made them), and without seeing the rest of the message quoted it certainly seems to read that way.

like Uber, but for underpants (James Morrison), Thursday, 3 March 2016 22:55 (nine months ago) Permalink

jesus christ, are yall really this fucking stupid?

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, 3 March 2016 23:00 (nine months ago) Permalink

never lock this thread

lock rape apologists' abilities to post

pay every woman and survivor of assault who read this thread $1000

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, 3 March 2016 23:03 (nine months ago) Permalink

Can't tell if that's directed at me, but I would like to state for the record that I am exactly as stupid as the 'Swans: Classic or Dud?' thread makes me out to be

bernard snowy, Thursday, 3 March 2016 23:03 (nine months ago) Permalink

definitely not you

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, 3 March 2016 23:04 (nine months ago) Permalink

thanking u roxy (& bernard & just1ne)

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Thursday, 3 March 2016 23:06 (nine months ago) Permalink

if you genuinely can't fathom why it's deemed important to enthusiastically believe survivors in our current social climate, go study rape and trauma for a year before speaking in public on the subject again. you are making yourself look terrible, and you are doing harm.

jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, 3 March 2016 23:12 (nine months ago) Permalink

Also, a note that begins Dear Siobhan, I'm Sorry, I'm sorry,i'm so, so sorry for being an immature manipulative untrustworthy whore,losing my way,being constantly high, and not follwoing my conscience when you welcomed me into your home." could well be meant in a very sarcastic tone (throwing accusations back at someone who made them), and without seeing the rest of the message quoted it certainly seems to read that way.

― like Uber, but for underpants (James Morrison), Thursday, March 3, 2016 4:55 PM (17 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

agreed that it could be ironic or sarcastic

that "quote" also could sound, let's say, completely fucking made up perhaps?

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Thursday, 3 March 2016 23:15 (nine months ago) Permalink

~moderator announcement~

Due to the number of his posts being flagged for moderation, Wimmels will be henceforth be banned from this thread.

~end moderator announcement~

mod, Thursday, 3 March 2016 23:17 (nine months ago) Permalink

ban him from the Larkin Grimm thread too btw, his post there is garbage

nomar, Thursday, 3 March 2016 23:31 (nine months ago) Permalink

pretty sure he drifted in on an ill wind from an MRA board based on his reactions to her statements.

nomar, Thursday, 3 March 2016 23:34 (nine months ago) Permalink

never lock this thread

lock rape apologists' abilities to post

pay every woman and survivor of assault who read this thread $1000

^^^^^^^^ yes! this is what i meant by those trying to 'win' this thread. and why, shakey, i'm NOT gonna walk away. i don't know how many more times it needs to be explained why we are believing larkin over grimm, but it seems some ilxors are just too fucking stubborn/ignorant/assholish to pay attention.

just1n3, Thursday, 3 March 2016 23:49 (nine months ago) Permalink

wow FP back with a vengeance!

Neanderthal, Thursday, 3 March 2016 23:50 (nine months ago) Permalink

jesus christ, are yall really this fucking stupid?

― jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak),

hope this wasn't at me

like Uber, but for underpants (James Morrison), Friday, 4 March 2016 00:08 (nine months ago) Permalink

I'd imagine Roxymuzak's comment was directed at me for daring to ask a couple of questions.

Alex in NYC, Friday, 4 March 2016 00:18 (nine months ago) Permalink

But, y'know, okay. I guess an actual discussion isn't going to happen.

Alex in NYC, Friday, 4 March 2016 00:19 (nine months ago) Permalink

Multiple posters have laid out why it is important to believe people who speak out about sexual assault, but you "reasonable" people have repeatedly said that we're not answering you. THE ACTUAL DISCUSSION HAS ALREADY HAPPENED, YOU'RE JUST CHOOSING TO IGNORE IT.

emil.y, Friday, 4 March 2016 00:33 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp

if you genuinely can't fathom why it's deemed important to enthusiastically believe survivors in our current social climate, go study rape and trauma for a year before speaking in public on the subject again. you are making yourself look terrible, and you are doing harm.

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Friday, 4 March 2016 00:36 (nine months ago) Permalink

So, even if there are developments or nuances or added context to the story, eh? I see.

Alex in NYC, Friday, 4 March 2016 00:42 (nine months ago) Permalink

denies the existence of dark matter (difficult listening hour), Friday, 4 March 2016 00:43 (nine months ago) Permalink

So, even if there are developments or nuances or added context to the story, eh? I see.

This thread is a whirlpool in a sewer. Why are you so intent on going for a swim?

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Friday, 4 March 2016 00:50 (nine months ago) Permalink

So, even if there are developments or nuances or added context to the story, eh? I see.
--Alex in NYC

Alex if you think spouses/ex-spouses popping up on FB calling LG a crazy whore all the while boldly stating "proof to clear Michael's good name is around the corner just you wait" is worthwhile development/nuance/context... Well let's just say that I'd do some reevaluating if I were you.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Friday, 4 March 2016 00:55 (nine months ago) Permalink

otm. the campaign to discredit larkin grimm is the exact fucking same disingenuous dance that happens every time a woman speaks out about rape.

micro brewbio (crüt), Friday, 4 March 2016 00:59 (nine months ago) Permalink

I didn't use the term "worthwhile," but a progression in the story it remains.

Alex in NYC, Friday, 4 March 2016 01:11 (nine months ago) Permalink

Your definition of progress wildly different from most other posters on this thread.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Friday, 4 March 2016 01:23 (nine months ago) Permalink

I realize you're in feverish rush to have the last word, Alex, but the term "progression" simply means a movement or development ... which, for better or worse, it was.

Alex in NYC, Friday, 4 March 2016 01:30 (nine months ago) Permalink

If I thought you were looking at those responses with the kind of revulsion they merit I might have more sympathy with your POV Alex.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Friday, 4 March 2016 01:35 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp you need your dome cracked

lute bro (brimstead), Friday, 4 March 2016 01:35 (nine months ago) Permalink

dude I like you and know this thread really upsets you but let's try to keep threats off the thread where we are talking abt victims of violence

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Friday, 4 March 2016 01:39 (nine months ago) Permalink

For the record I didn't know who Larkin Grimm was a week ago, while I own just about everything Gira's done, have seen Swans/AoL/Gira live in some variation a half dozen times, but reading Grimm's original post I was struck immediately by the clear believability (and frankly maturity and overall sympathy of it) whereas every single response from the Gira camp has struck me as petty, cruel and immature. Those responses don't represent any change to the underlying narrative except to reinforce the more grotesque aspects of our culture when people (particularly women) come forward with these charges.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Friday, 4 March 2016 01:40 (nine months ago) Permalink

EXACTLY (although I owned two Grimm LPs and was a big fan already, I was a much bigger Swans fan). it's the responses that have created the big issue and subsequent discussion more than anything else - earlier upthread roxy noted how it was a textbook example of how NOT to respond to an allegation.

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Friday, 4 March 2016 01:43 (nine months ago) Permalink

two classic examples of how not to respond to a possible rape victim:

only now just noticed the likely intended implication in DLP's fourth post:

New Larkin Grimm

and Wimmels' post in response to the one i'm linking here:

Swans: Classic or Dud?

teachable moments for those who are able to muster up empathy for those in this situation and want to know what not to say

nomar, Friday, 4 March 2016 01:52 (nine months ago) Permalink

I need my dome cracked???

Alex in NYC, Friday, 4 March 2016 02:40 (nine months ago) Permalink

I'm not trolling. I'm not being needlessly provocative. I'm not making jokes. I'm trying to participate in a discussion, but if it's going to devolve into insults and threats I'm out. Stay classy, ILX.

Alex in NYC, Friday, 4 March 2016 02:54 (nine months ago) Permalink

That was pretty lame, but I'm still not sure what you want to "discuss".

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Friday, 4 March 2016 03:10 (nine months ago) Permalink

this thread isn't about your hurt feelings bc ppl think you're a bit of dickhead for ignoring every attempt to actually discuss things, or have things explained to you

just1n3, Friday, 4 March 2016 04:17 (nine months ago) Permalink

never lock this thread

lock rape apologists' abilities to post

pay every woman and survivor of assault who read this thread $1000

― jello my future biafriend (roxymuzak), Thursday, March 3, 2016 4:03 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm

eat shit y'all (you know who you are)

HYPERLINK TO RAP GENIUS (BradNelson), Friday, 4 March 2016 05:01 (nine months ago) Permalink

Don't worry about my feelings. I can handle that. It's just the mob mentality that I'm a bit surprised by. Someone else has come forward and made a statement, but it's clearly not going to be addressed here.

Alex in NYC, Friday, 4 March 2016 12:53 (nine months ago) Permalink

All I'd wish you to cop to is your position has everything to do with there identity of the accused saying "well I wouldn't have clicked on a thread about Nickelback thread" feels like a colour, especially since Gira is the one who went from this who is changing his story

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 4 March 2016 13:55 (nine months ago) Permalink

i wish people would stop defending their takes by appealing to the supposedly "credible" or "suspicious" character of the public statements made by the parties involved, whose story is changing, etc.

circumstantial, irrelevant trivialities like that are typically touted as "evidence" by those who wish to discredit rape victims. the truth is not always told by the person with the most seemingly sensible account, nor is it always told consistently.

leet gentlemen's club (contenderizer), Friday, 4 March 2016 14:14 (nine months ago) Permalink

To Robbie's statements: Well, no...as I mentioned upthread, to Gira's mind, he didn't change his story. He admitted to an "awkward mistake" (his words). That, to me, indicated that he doesn't perceive said "awkward mistake" as rape (He very well be mistaken). As such, he considers Mr. Grimm's allegations as "lie" (again, his words). Taken with that in mind, to *his mind* he didn't change his story.

Make no mistake, please: If the circumstances indeed were that he engaged in penetration without consent, that is unquestionably rape. No grey areas there. He's guilty.

You made the Nickelback joke, not me. I couldn't care less about Nickelback or Avril. Not sure what point you were going for with that. I'm obviously invested in this as a fan of Michael Gira's, and trying to make sense of the whole story. But, when I do ask questions to that end, I'm labeled a "dickhead" in need of a "dome-cracking." So be it. My feelings, again, aren't hurt by that (some of us have said much worse things here about entirely trivial things), but I think it undermines the gravity of the subject here. But, what do I know.

Not sure what you mean by "feels like a colour."

The statement I was referring to up there was recently made by a former bandmember of Ms. Grimm's (i.e. someone who actually knows her, unlike most participants here). Were this a court of law, I believe we'd call her a character witness. But, in all sincerity, I think the point has been ground home that no one really believes this should be taken any further here, as it's clearly stirring up a lot of negativity. I get that, so I will finally recuse myself from further comment and spare anyone my opinions.

Alex in NYC, Friday, 4 March 2016 14:23 (nine months ago) Permalink

(XP)
Yeab he whole focus on "changing stories" & "new developments" is a mistake, plain & simple, because it expects reality to have some ultimate bedrock of truth that can be accessed & interpreted according to simplistic binaries: rape = evil, most men = not-evil, therefore most men accused of rape are innocent & if they appear guilty it's only because we lack some of the 'context'. It would be far more productive to spend time changing your own mind so that it is capable of more nuanced 'fuzzy logical' thinking.

bernard snowy, Friday, 4 March 2016 14:24 (nine months ago) Permalink

to Gira's mind, he didn't change his story. He admitted to an "awkward mistake" (his words). That, to me, indicated that he doesn't perceive said "awkward mistake" as rape (He very well be mistaken). As such, he considers Mr. Grimm's allegations as "lie" (again, his words). Taken with that in mind, to *his mind* he didn't change his story.

I'm not gonna do that thing where a transparently o_O-worthy post gets quoted 100,000,000,000,000,0)),000,000,000,000 times, but I *strongly* urge you to reflect on what you are saying here & the assumptions you make in order to say it

bernard snowy, Friday, 4 March 2016 14:31 (nine months ago) Permalink

Attempting to explain how the accused perceives the situation is not the same as endorsing that perception.

Again, do you want me to leave or not?

Alex in NYC, Friday, 4 March 2016 14:33 (nine months ago) Permalink

The woman who was the center of teh alleged attack by Thomas Sayers Ellis (his ex girlfriend) has posted on FB with a rather lengthy claim that attacks Grimm's mental state.

akm, Friday, 4 March 2016 14:50 (nine months ago) Permalink

(I don't really have a strong dog in this race; I'm inclined to believe Grimm about the Gira thing; the incident with TSE was the one I wanted to hear more about since it apparently happened in front of lots of people, yet no one had spoken about it yet)

akm, Friday, 4 March 2016 14:51 (nine months ago) Permalink

good god this is not a dog race! i am only here to collect my $1000 (or more? i do fall into several categories) and request an end to rape culture

La Lechuza (La Lechera), Friday, 4 March 2016 14:58 (nine months ago) Permalink

You made the Nickelback joke, not me. I couldn't care less about Nickelback or Avril. Not sure what point you were going for with that. I'm obviously invested in this as a fan of Michael Gira's, and trying to make sense of the whole story. But, when I do ask questions to that end, I'm labeled a "dickhead" in need of a "dome-cracking." So be it. My feelings, again, aren't hurt by that (some of us have said much worse things here about entirely trivial things), but I think it undermines the gravity of the subject here. But, what do I know.

alex 1) i haven't called you a dick or been abusive towards you in any way, and i did not and not mean the nickelback thing as a joke. i am very seriously suggesting that if nothing else about this entire situation was different - down to the quotes from both sides being identical -- but the thread title was "nickelback's chad kroeger accused of rape" and avril lavigne was in the position of his ex-wife defending him....i'm saying that i believe you would not hold the positions you have in this thread. i.e. i believe this has everything to do with the fact the swans are a big deal to you. and i don't even think you have bad intentions i'm just suggesting maybe you examine your own motivations at core.

i don't know how you communicate that more articulately or respectfully than that.

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 4 March 2016 15:01 (nine months ago) Permalink

Here's the statement ppl are talking about:

"Clearly Larkin Grimm is not well. Mental illness does not equate with dishonesty. However, in Grimm’s case, both are active to the detriment of my colleague and former life partner, Thomas Ellis’s reputation and career. I have worked with Thomas for years now, and though our personal relationship did not work, I know him well and deeply and Grimm’s public depictions of him are errant and libelius. I continue to work with Thomas professionally and I stand with him in this matter. Larkin Grimm has admitted in writing that, when off her medication, she lacks compassion and enjoys playing tricks on people. During her short tenure with Heroes Are Gang Leaders, she wove a tapestry of lies about her past marriage, false suicide attempts, and a number of other stories that she carefully tailored to the particular listener in order to garner their sympathy and rely on their decency to keep her confidences private. As her statements became bolder and more difficult to fathom, members of HAGL began discussing them and quickly discovered that Larkin Grimm is a very calculating liar. When she feared her place in the band was in jeopardy, she fabricated sexual harassment allegations against the main three band members who saw through her lies and wanted her out. Later she addressed the entire group, promising no more lies and that she was trying to be a better person--that she felt that the person she was when she was playing was the better person that she strived to be in life. Unfortunately, Grimm has not been successful in that aim. She went on to publically conflate an unfortunate incident within my then broken relationship with Thomas Ellis--an incident she uses lies to describe--with a rape allegation she made against producer Michael Gira from 2008, two completely unrelated stories beyond Grimm’s opportunistic linking in order to publicise her new album.

-Margaret Morris of Heroes Are Gang Leaders"

circa1916, Friday, 4 March 2016 15:03 (nine months ago) Permalink

woah

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 4 March 2016 15:13 (nine months ago) Permalink

That funny, because I was just going through Heroes Are Gang Leaders videos just to get an idea of their sound and I was like "Damn, I don't see Larkin Grimm anywhere in here - did she make THAT up?"

how's life, Friday, 4 March 2016 15:15 (nine months ago) Permalink

Walking back the part where I say it's funny because obviously this whole thing is unfunny.

how's life, Friday, 4 March 2016 15:17 (nine months ago) Permalink

ty

wanna clarify that regardless of how this turns out, Gira's initial statement was reprehensible, and the behavior of some male posters in this thread has been awful throughout

and yes, I will believe the victim first next time, too

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Friday, 4 March 2016 15:19 (nine months ago) Permalink

In my perfect world, the standard of proof required for public opinion to view a woman (or anyone) as 'untrustworthy' is more demanding than the standard of proof to view a man as 'probably a rapist' (& the two are not, it should go without saying, mutually exclusive -- as though there did not exist a well-documented correlation between mental illness & victimization, esp. sexual assault), but I must admit that that statement goes a long way towards establishing the former.

bernard snowy, Friday, 4 March 2016 15:23 (nine months ago) Permalink

It's certainly risky to come to either conclusion until there is sufficient evidence. It's very weird to me to take any side right off the bat, but of course the accusation should always be taken very seriously.

Evan, Friday, 4 March 2016 15:32 (nine months ago) Permalink

If you read comments to that Morris post it seems like there are people like Gira's ex objecting to media outlets even reporting on this story and not giving sufficient deference to Gira's side.

One bad call from barely losing to (Alex in SF), Friday, 4 March 2016 15:39 (nine months ago) Permalink

Not re-joining this, just wanted to reach back out to Robbie: Sorry to be defensive. Lots of stuff being thrown around here. I must confess to not knowing about the Nickelback story -- I thought you were implying that the only reason I was weighing in here was because I'm a SWANS fan (which is true). Don't know anything about a similar allegation made against the Nickelback guy. Ugh. Anyway, no offense taken, and none implied. Carry on everyone. This is awful, ugly business.

Alex in NYC, Friday, 4 March 2016 16:07 (nine months ago) Permalink

Here's hoping the thread can get back to its true purpose: Speculative fan fiction about Chad Kroger raping Avril Lavigne

Whiney G. Weingarten, Friday, 4 March 2016 16:21 (nine months ago) Permalink

Sleeve, I wouldn't really walk anything back based on the MM statement either. I read it earlier, decided it didn't really shed much light one way or the other and could be impeached pretty easily in any number of ways (ex-wife of band leader accuses woman of mental illness). There are other statements by HAGL members also questioning Larkin that haven't shown up here. I don't see statements being the answer.

One thing I'd probably focus on is the difference between "believe" and "take seriously." The latter makes a lot of sense to me. The former doesn't.

dlp9001, Friday, 4 March 2016 16:37 (nine months ago) Permalink

the standard of proof required for public opinion to view a woman (or anyone) as 'untrustworthy' is more demanding than the standard of proof to view a man as 'probably a rapist'

― bernard snowy, Friday, March 4, 2016 7:23 AM (1 hour ago)

i get where you're coming from, and i know it's a good place, but i just can't. no.

lot of liars out there, and a lot of rapists, too. no need to take it any further than that.

leet gentlemen's club (contenderizer), Friday, 4 March 2016 16:53 (nine months ago) Permalink

Not re-joining this, just wanted to reach back out to Robbie: Sorry to be defensive. Lots of stuff being thrown around here. I must confess to not knowing about the Nickelback story -- I thought you were implying that the only reason I was weighing in here was because I'm a SWANS fan (which is true). Don't know anything about a similar allegation made against the Nickelback guy. Ugh. Anyway, no offense taken, and none implied. Carry on everyone. This is awful, ugly business.

― Alex in NYC, Friday, March 4, 2016 10:07 AM (45 minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

no no no god ugh sorry i didn't mean to suggest that was true, i just didn't mean it as a joke

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 4 March 2016 16:54 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp - sorry, left off bernard's "in my perfect world," at the beginning there

leet gentlemen's club (contenderizer), Friday, 4 March 2016 16:54 (nine months ago) Permalink

Honestly, in this thread context, I think "they are not mutually exclusive" was the more important of the qualifiers you omitted... but thanks for hearing me out. I don't have any more time today to spend on this, unfortunately; otherwise I think you and I could actually have a productive discussion!

bernard snowy, Friday, 4 March 2016 17:46 (nine months ago) Permalink

after reading more of this thread, note to self: don't get raped by a musician with avid fans

sarahell, Friday, 4 March 2016 18:01 (nine months ago) Permalink

i think you're fine as long as you don't say anything about it

Szechuan TV (Noodle Vague), Friday, 4 March 2016 18:07 (nine months ago) Permalink

i could probably tell my mom though

sarahell, Friday, 4 March 2016 18:13 (nine months ago) Permalink

check whether she is a big fan of the perp first maybe

Szechuan TV (Noodle Vague), Friday, 4 March 2016 18:37 (nine months ago) Permalink

They're still selling tickets to the Gira / Thurston Moore gig at the Barbican. I imagine there'll be a lot of people trying to return them.

Matt DC, Friday, 4 March 2016 18:53 (nine months ago) Permalink

xp nah, she loves me more than the Beatles

sarahell, Friday, 4 March 2016 18:53 (nine months ago) Permalink

Definitely classic, bro. And they became more classic with time. Check their last three albums for proof.

sunlick databait extremer, Friday, 4 March 2016 22:24 (nine months ago) Permalink

lol

Οὖτις, Friday, 4 March 2016 22:29 (nine months ago) Permalink

My only impressions of this band are based on Cop.

how's life, Friday, 4 March 2016 23:07 (nine months ago) Permalink

idk if Alex in NYC is still reading (sent him a PM) but sorry bro and sorry thraed.

lute bro (brimstead), Friday, 4 March 2016 23:17 (nine months ago) Permalink

Got your message. Appreciated. No harm done. This thread had/has emotions running high. It happens. Likewise, if my line of questioning upset anyone (some folks unfriended me on Facebook, presumably as a result). I apologize.

Alex in NYC, Saturday, 5 March 2016 01:31 (nine months ago) Permalink

I just wanted to take another opportunity to do some apologizing here. I was reading this thread in a somewhat piecemeal manner, and also addressing a lot of it in much the same way one approaches threads about trivial bullshit. The story is still hugely upsetting and it's got a long way to go before all the facts shake out. But that doesn't excuse being flippant, dickish, pedantic and/or disrespectful regarding the core issue, and I feel like I may have been creating that impression, and for that I sincerely apologize to those I have offended. Obviously, as a devout SWANS fan, I don't *WANT* any of this to be true (no one does), but regardless, that doesn't excuse being insensitive, obstinate, or pig-headedly selective about the bits of the narrative I choose to read.

I am sorry. I promise, I am not a callous asshole. Please forgive me.

Alex in NYC, Saturday, 5 March 2016 22:16 (nine months ago) Permalink

You are a fan its cool. Just say Classic or dud and why.

sunlick databait extremer, Sunday, 6 March 2016 02:05 (nine months ago) Permalink

http://www.vidaweb.org/statements-against-silence/

plenty of testimonials against thomas sayers ellis. whereas i can understand larkin's compassion for gira - there wasn't a straight-up malicious intention to his acts - TSE sounds like someone who gets off on degrading women.

just1n3, Friday, 11 March 2016 00:29 (eight months ago) Permalink

I'm eagerly awaiting the page full of anonymous complaints against Margaret Morris.

Was it Andy Warhol who said, "In the future, everyone will be blessed with a page full of anonymous accusations on the internet for fifteen minutes."

I still have absolutely no idea what happened, but the above linked page is just garbage.

dlp9001, Friday, 11 March 2016 01:06 (eight months ago) Permalink

omg shut up, you dumb idiot try hard.

kurt schwitterz, Friday, 11 March 2016 01:06 (eight months ago) Permalink

Maybe I should just have my dome cracked. This thread is really something.

dlp9001, Friday, 11 March 2016 01:12 (eight months ago) Permalink

maybe they should rename this thread to something secret and obscure and let everybody but dlp9001 and Wimmers know what it is.

Neanderthal, Friday, 11 March 2016 01:13 (eight months ago) Permalink

oh wait Wimmels is t-banned

Neanderthal, Friday, 11 March 2016 01:14 (eight months ago) Permalink

Rename it, "We know he's guilty because we know" and have a blast.

dlp9001, Friday, 11 March 2016 01:16 (eight months ago) Permalink

Neanderthal, Friday, 11 March 2016 01:19 (eight months ago) Permalink

self-immolating on the internet would be even more impressive if you weren't disguised as a licence plate

Szechuan TV (Noodle Vague), Friday, 11 March 2016 01:20 (eight months ago) Permalink

nothing you just said has anything to do with the lunkheaded mra type of dismissal of a bunch of victims + an entirely unfunny drama club humor type made up warhol quote joke smh kill yourself, dude.

kurt schwitterz, Friday, 11 March 2016 01:21 (eight months ago) Permalink

Anonymous Comments in an Empty Room. We can really do better. I'm still kind of in favor of, um, waiting for something vaguely factual. I know that's crazy. Carry on.

dlp9001, Friday, 11 March 2016 01:36 (eight months ago) Permalink

this is like the worst of bad looks

a self-reinforcing downward spiral of male-centric indie (katherine), Friday, 11 March 2016 01:41 (eight months ago) Permalink

so basically you want signed affidavits made in the presence of police officers?

would be amazed if you demanded such 'evidence' for other things people said to you.

"sorry honey, I can't console you about the bullying you went through at school until I've done my thorough interview first"

Neanderthal, Friday, 11 March 2016 01:46 (eight months ago) Permalink

I know it's crazy talk around here, but I'd like to wait and see what people have to say before condemning someone based on a Facebook comment.

dlp9001, Friday, 11 March 2016 01:51 (eight months ago) Permalink

as you have established this point, perhaps it might be best to leave this thread behind for now?

tremendous crime wave and killing wave (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Friday, 11 March 2016 01:52 (eight months ago) Permalink

You're probably right. I actually think that might be true for everyone.

dlp9001, Friday, 11 March 2016 01:53 (eight months ago) Permalink

they're anonymous bc no woman wants to go through what larkin is going through, what cosby's victims are going through, what kesha is going through.

no woman wants her whole life viewed through a lying-whore filter.

no woman wants to go through bodily violations that leave her struggling to get past the damage, only to be told none of it happened and that no one believes her.

and citing the old replace-female-accuser-with-male-accused-and-seewhatididthere! is a false equivalency, which you would know unless you live under a rock.

just1n3, Friday, 11 March 2016 01:55 (eight months ago) Permalink

You're probably right. I actually think that might be true for everyone.

― dlp9001, Thursday, March 10, 2016 8:53 PM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

man fuck you with your thread policing shit, repeating the same damn inane shit over and over even after ten or more others have clearly elucidated their viewpoints and you've essentially just ignored them.

Neanderthal, Friday, 11 March 2016 01:56 (eight months ago) Permalink

we've already heard what ppl have to say, and there wasn't just a single throwaway fb comment. this isn't going through the courts bc larkin is interested in the greater good for both men and women, and is sacrificing getting her own justice. all she is asking anybody is think about consent, and to speak up if you witness a lack of it.

just1n3, Friday, 11 March 2016 01:57 (eight months ago) Permalink

I think Larkin said it better. "I am only speaking of it now because after being accused of “lynching” Thomas, I cannot ethically keep Michael’s secret any longer. He’s a white guy, and his crime was far worse than what Thomas did to me or Margaret."

dlp9001, Friday, 11 March 2016 02:01 (eight months ago) Permalink

I'd like to think that a board that I've been on for ten? fifteen? I can't recall. Years, would have the ability to actually wait and get a sense of what happened in a complicated situation before throwing someone under the bus. As noted, I'm not on the Kim Fowley or Dr. Luke (or Beatles, let's be honest) threads making a fuss.

dlp9001, Friday, 11 March 2016 02:08 (eight months ago) Permalink

Those TSE stories have a whole lot of odd, extremely specific details in them to be made up

robbie ca$hflo (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 11 March 2016 02:17 (eight months ago) Permalink

All sorts of people have been (falsely) convicted based on statements that seemed to make sense based on compelling details. I'm not a Gira apologist, I have no idea what happened, but this isn't the place for amateur sleuthing.

dlp9001, Friday, 11 March 2016 02:25 (eight months ago) Permalink

Dude, I'm probably closer to your position than almost anyone posting in this thread and I'm begging you to shut the fuck up and go do something else with your time.

the top man in the language department (誤訳侮辱), Friday, 11 March 2016 02:50 (eight months ago) Permalink

we have a really good idea what happened bc larkin told us exactly what went down. it's not complicated at all. there is consent, and there is absence of consent.

just1n3, Friday, 11 March 2016 03:09 (eight months ago) Permalink

I don't like the "shut the fuck up" language, but do appreciate that we're not going anywhere again. Wishing for another thread hiatus until something reasonably concrete actually happens.

dlp9001, Friday, 11 March 2016 03:36 (eight months ago) Permalink

yes, take one

call all destroyer, Friday, 11 March 2016 03:49 (eight months ago) Permalink

btw why in the world would someone (let alone a bunch of ppl) levy a false anonymous accusation against a person who as far as i can gather is a marginally notable public figure if you happen to move in certain literary and academic circles? what would be gained?

call all destroyer, Friday, 11 March 2016 03:52 (eight months ago) Permalink

Respect to dlp, no respect to the "kill yourself dlp"s. dlp: I get that this is a threatening situation because accepting Larkin's, Gira's, everyone else's statements as facts puts yourself (and myself and everybody) on a shaky platform of the ambiguity and impetuousness of public opinion, like, "oh gee, so anybody can make a Facebook post saying 'fgti is a rapist' and I just have to deal with that?" I just ask that you put aside phrases like "throwing somebody under the bus" because what is actually going on here is a recognition of an everyday, nearly-commonplace act, of people getting drunk and ignoring consent. It doesn't hurt Gira to say "he raped Larkin"-- rape is a broad term and applies here, but that doesn't make him Jared Fogle. Note that Larkin is not asking for legal recourse, or even accountability. She is asking for understanding. We can accept in equal terms that Larkin claims the sex was non-consensual, and Gira's assertion that it was a "regrettable mistake". We can add into the mix that other sources claim that Larkin is "crazy" and accept that, and have sympathy for her mental state, without letting it determine whether or not she has the ability to recognize when consent is given. The problem with your stance of "let's see the facts" is that it literally serves no purpose. Our culture, on the legal and societal spectrum, does not favour the victims, beyond a rape kit, factually proving a rape is terrifically difficult, and you have an opportunity here to accept all possible truths, believe everybody's point of view. Your only bad direction here is viewing things as black-and-white, that you need Proof! and Facts! you don't need these things. You don't need a notarized document or a police report to read Larkin's story, believe her, read the responses, believe them, and alter your own behaviour, and allow these events to prepare and strengthen yourself for the future sexual abuse of yourself and your family members, either as perpetrators or victims.

got a long list of ILXors (fgti), Friday, 11 March 2016 05:40 (eight months ago) Permalink

standing O ^^^^^^^

Neanderthal, Friday, 11 March 2016 05:47 (eight months ago) Permalink

thanks fgti, your input here has been great.

dlp you emailed me offboard about some things you went through IRL that relate to this, not gonna go into specifics but someone did lie about you and it went to court and you were the injured party and it sucked. I hope that's vague enough. please, please consider that your personal experiences may be preventing you from seeing the situation in this thread with full clarity. as I said to you offboard, you are a better person (and poster) than this.

but hey, maybe Jon is right and I've only ever interacted with you around music, but we've known each other online for over a decade and I'd really like to think of you as more than some MRA clone.

the 'major tom guy' (sleeve), Friday, 11 March 2016 05:53 (eight months ago) Permalink

the above linked page is just garbage.

― dlp9001, Thursday, March 10, 2016 5:06 PM (4 hours ago)

not seeing anything in the vidaweb page that inclines me to sweepingly dismiss the assembled accounts as "garbage". do they definitively prove anything? no. but they are fairly compelling when taken as a whole.

i half want to support your ostensible agnosticism, but your rush to mock, judge and discard women's testimony smacks of something much less intellectually defensible.

Keks + Nuss (contenderizer), Friday, 11 March 2016 06:00 (eight months ago) Permalink

i like how this thread is going on seemingly forever

Treeship, Friday, 11 March 2016 06:02 (eight months ago) Permalink

i think it's worth thinking about the fact that dlp and pretty much everyone else on this thread are all posting in relative anonymity with no real names attached. Would you be making the same posts if your government name were attached to them and other people, many whom you don't know, could just link to them and share them willy-nilly? I know I probably would change the way (and amount) I post if that were the case. Then think about that in the context of someone who was sexually assaulted by a famous person, or at least someone more well-known and admired than you.

sarahell, Friday, 11 March 2016 07:11 (eight months ago) Permalink

i half want to support your ostensible agnosticism, but your rush to mock, judge and discard women's testimony smacks of something much less intellectually defensible.

sorry if in irl you got screwed over by a liar. but let me tell you something. i have friends that had this happen to them in real life and have seen them struggle w it over the years and the uphill battle they faced was no joke so fuck you dlp.

also nobody is "throwing him under a bus" nobody is "condemning him" so plz w the dramatic language here regarding message board chatter. this is an open message board not a jury, not a court, you are free to share your opinion the same as everyone else. don't be surprised if you are called out for being uncouth. this isn't something ILX dug up in an effort to discredit somebody. we are reacting to widely publicized music news and on a board where ever single scrap of music gossip gets talked about to death. this should not be off limits.

AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Friday, 11 March 2016 14:01 (eight months ago) Permalink

dlp was threadbanned last night.

mod, Friday, 11 March 2016 14:08 (eight months ago) Permalink

two weeks pass...

http://jezebel.com/is-this-the-end-of-the-era-of-the-important-inappropri-1765684275

Larkin features in this massive piece (reading it now)

xyzzzz__, Wednesday, 30 March 2016 21:39 (eight months ago) Permalink

Speaking strictly in terms of music, new SWANS album slated for June release, according to Young God Records.

Alex in NYC, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 15:32 (eight months ago) Permalink

Speaking strictly in terms of music,

the longest "actually"

Whiney G. Weingarten, Tuesday, 5 April 2016 16:18 (eight months ago) Permalink

six months pass...

http://www.mtv.com/news/2941144/swans-2/

StanM, Thursday, 13 October 2016 17:45 (one month ago) Permalink

good piece

heaven parker (anagram), Thursday, 13 October 2016 19:45 (one month ago) Permalink


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