Laughing at the proles: C/D?

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Partly prompted by receiving a forwarded email linking to chavscum this morning, and partly by N.'s comments on the High Fidelity thread.

Ricardo (RickyT), Thursday, 29 April 2004 13:59 (sixteen years ago) link

Dud, but depends on the specifics.

ENRQ (Enrique), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:02 (sixteen years ago) link

Dud when they hear you and duff you up, otherwise classic cos it's fun to laugh at everybody really.

CharlieNo4 (Charlie), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:25 (sixteen years ago) link

Charlie OTM

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:25 (sixteen years ago) link

Erm, what is a prole?

smee (smee), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:26 (sixteen years ago) link

prole = proletariat = working/lower (delete as applicable) class person

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:27 (sixteen years ago) link

The guy who runs Chavscum is one of the biggest cunts on the internet. I read that webpage wide-eyed at how he wasn't wiped out at some point during the Restoration. Example quote from that webpage:

"Kilroy on bbc1 still makes a valiant attempt to tackle the issues of the day"

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:28 (sixteen years ago) link

It's amazing how innocuous a complete lack of context makes that quote, Dom.

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:29 (sixteen years ago) link

Thank you Dan, I feel silly now (well more silly than usual) I would've got it on prole = proletariat though, honest....

smee (smee), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:29 (sixteen years ago) link

I have no problem whatsoever with laughing at the "chav" stereotype - it's where there are there are phrases like 'burgenoning peasant underclass' used that it starts to leave a nasty taste in my mouth (cf. "council").

Whether these two are, deep down, separable is a moot point.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:31 (sixteen years ago) link

How is laughing at poor people different to laughing at ethnic groups?

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:32 (sixteen years ago) link

Do you really want a serious answer to that?

NA (Nick A.), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:34 (sixteen years ago) link

laughing at poor people is almost impossible to do good-naturedly.
xpost i gave him one

oops (Oops), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:34 (sixteen years ago) link

Not a very good one.

NA (Nick A.), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:35 (sixteen years ago) link

Dave Q's tales of life in London to thread.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:35 (sixteen years ago) link

Thus

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:36 (sixteen years ago) link

It just seems to me that it seems almost acceptable in educated, middle class circles like ILx to make the kind of jokes about the working class that would be unthinkable about women or people of different ethnicity or sexuality. Why is this?

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:37 (sixteen years ago) link

Because we're all assholes.

NA (Nick A.), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:39 (sixteen years ago) link

says you, na aka mr negativity

xpost i have more of a problem with jokes about the poor than jokes about women, ethnicities, etc. though i have little problem with either cause, you know, they're jokes

oops (Oops), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:40 (sixteen years ago) link

semi surreal casual racism - dud, or dud and it does yer fukcing head in a bit as well?

It kind of kicked off on this thread over this one...

Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:40 (sixteen years ago) link

wow i was replying to a different NA post but it fits with that one too.

oops (Oops), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:43 (sixteen years ago) link

Like a reversible coat, it fits all occasions.

NA (Nick A.), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:44 (sixteen years ago) link

yeah, charlie and dan are right, just laugh at everyone.

jel -- (jel), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:44 (sixteen years ago) link

Can we go back to the idea that "poor" is a red herring here and we actually just like laughing at people?

(haha xpost jel I man-kiss you)

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:45 (sixteen years ago) link

That seems a bit naive to me.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:45 (sixteen years ago) link

I laugh at you, Jerry.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:47 (sixteen years ago) link

I like laughing!

Ally C (Ally C), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:48 (sixteen years ago) link

Eg, how would you feel about laughing at a racist joke?

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:48 (sixteen years ago) link

TS: generalizing about human behavior vs talking about yourself

(xpost HAHA NED I ALMOST MADE THAT EXACT SAME POST)

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:48 (sixteen years ago) link

Also, I have laughed at racist jokes that were actually funny (usually when the racism is reflected back at the racist person to make them look stupid).

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:49 (sixteen years ago) link

I mean, I watch Chapelle's Show every week and laugh my ass off.

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:50 (sixteen years ago) link

Gosh, class is quite the invisible issue on ILx. Unless we're talking about trucker hats.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:51 (sixteen years ago) link

xpost HAHA NED I ALMOST MADE THAT EXACT SAME POST

I am you
And you are me
XYZ to ABC
You
Me
Us
We are one

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:52 (sixteen years ago) link

Thing is though that although this undeniably a class-based debate its also a tribal thing - in my nice middle-class school there was a subset of so-called 'chavs' most of whom came from Bromley and Beckenham and elsewhere.

You get the same thing in nice middle-class schools throughout the UK, the kids who think they are "cool-arty-alternative" spitting venom and the kids who are "trendy-chav-townie". Maybe this is the Brit equivalent of the whole nerd-jock thing along different lines.

To what extent the impulse behind chavscum and jokes/sites like it is motivated by a logical extension of that side of things as opposed to plain snobbery is the grey-area that makes this whole debate interesting.

"Hey, they're jokes, laugh at everyone and its not offensive" is a bit of a copout.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:52 (sixteen years ago) link

(Stevie - look at the thread I linked to and you'll realise this isn't quite the case - in fact one of the people responsible for kicking this debate off is arguing the same thing as you on that thread)

Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:53 (sixteen years ago) link

Not to mention the massive fee-paying schools thread last week.. (haha although that may prove your point!)

Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:54 (sixteen years ago) link

Yes, because I laugh at everyone, class is an invisible issue.

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:56 (sixteen years ago) link

I am surprised by how much you get it on ILX and in wider life lately too, I think. I tried sticking up for Rosie Kane when she complained about 'anti-ned' drives but got laughed at by Ailsa.

I think it's definitely dud when done by the rich or middle classes. It's a bit of a thornier issue when it comes from upwardly-mobile working class people slagging off uncouth neighbours. I'm reading Energy Flash at the mo, and the stuff in there about the Detroit techno scene is v.interesting (the well-off children of the new black middle/upper-working class on thew West Side distancing themselves from the hoi polloi, putting up 'no jits' signs on the doors of the clubs).

It kind of comes down to whether you how you define class, and what's worth sticking up for in a class's culture.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 29 April 2004 14:56 (sixteen years ago) link

I don't know.....you reach a certain age, you have to start reading about the Detroit techno scene.

Ally C (Ally C), Thursday, 29 April 2004 15:03 (sixteen years ago) link

It's was only £3.99 in Fopp!

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 29 April 2004 15:03 (sixteen years ago) link

Also N's point about lifestyle/"upwardly mobile working class" is interesting because I think there's a hefty element of deflected fear in all this - sites like chavscum are specifically aimed at a particular subset of working class people.

A cursory glance at the site in question reveals that these are exactly the sort of people your university-educated middle-class types fear are waiting around bus stops and street corners in order to beat them up. Ergo sites established in order to laugh at them from a safe distance.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 29 April 2004 15:06 (sixteen years ago) link

I don't really feel that I have much of a class identity.

jel -- (jel), Thursday, 29 April 2004 15:09 (sixteen years ago) link

These people are probably just as scared of - for example - black urban males. How would we react to a site that took the piss out of them? Sorry to harp on about this. It all comes down to the acceptability or not of the notion of 'White Trash' I think. This used to be a strange idea to we Brits, I think, but now we seem quite comfortable with it. I shall do some work now.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 29 April 2004 15:09 (sixteen years ago) link

EVERYbody should have the piss taken out of them

oops (Oops), Thursday, 29 April 2004 15:15 (sixteen years ago) link

Yeah, it's character building....

smee (smee), Thursday, 29 April 2004 15:16 (sixteen years ago) link

The important question is why, and in what spirit? Oops has shown time and time again he has no idea where lines like this lie even when he isn't joking.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Thursday, 29 April 2004 15:17 (sixteen years ago) link

It would be very pretty to think so, oops, but unfortunately some people have more pissripping power than others.

Jerry the Nipper (Jerrynipper), Thursday, 29 April 2004 15:17 (sixteen years ago) link

and you have shown that your default setting is to assume someone is being mean-spirited and completely serious.

oops (Oops), Thursday, 29 April 2004 15:18 (sixteen years ago) link

Oops sounds like my old PE teacher who'd tell black kids to stop giving him black looks and then say "Hey, I take the mickey out of everyone!"

If this were really done, in equal measure, then maybe we'd have world peace, yes. But it doesn't work like that.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 29 April 2004 15:19 (sixteen years ago) link

TS pissripper vs. pisscutter

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 29 April 2004 15:19 (sixteen years ago) link

Pashmina is completely OTM; denigrating someone for assholish behavior = classic. Denigrating someone for assumed assholish behavior = dud.

I have received more racial taunts from "lower-class" people than I have "upper-class" people, largely due to "no matter how bad off I am, at least I'm better than a nigger" syndrome.

(xpost Boy, I Got Out There?)

VengaDan Perry (Dan Perry), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:28 (sixteen years ago) link

Oasis fans are unnatural. But that doesn't make me an Oasis-phobe, I'm just totally misunderstood!

x-post

El Diablo Robotico (Nicole), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:29 (sixteen years ago) link

Now if you substitute "Belle and Sebastian" for "Oasis"...hey why are you looking at me like that?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:32 (sixteen years ago) link

denigrating someone for assholish behavior = classic. Denigrating someone for assumed assholish behavior = dud

I entirely agree with this.

Ricardo (RickyT), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:32 (sixteen years ago) link

Boy, I Got Out There?

Well did you evah

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:32 (sixteen years ago) link

Pash, not that I have too strong an opinion either way, but what do you think about certain bars banning anyone wearing Rockport, Burberry, or Aquascutum from entering?

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:39 (sixteen years ago) link

The problem, as ever, with language like this is separating behaviour from appearance. I'm pretty sure Norman uses the term 'charvers' to describe people who act in a certain, anti-social way, robbing and ruining things in his neighbourhood. Other people seem to apply it to anyone who looks a certain way, or comes from a certain kind of home. It's excatly the same with 'neds' - orignally it was used to describe louts, but for so many people, kids from council estates wearing sports gear and hanging around in gangs = neds. The two get mixed up and the whole thing starts to look pretty ugly.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:39 (sixteen years ago) link

'Cor, it's ace!

(Do I want the Red Planet one or the Rolando one or what? Are they the same thing?)

Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:45 (sixteen years ago) link

I think the Martian is a/k/a Red Planet.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:47 (sixteen years ago) link

I see what they've done there! Thanks, N.

Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:49 (sixteen years ago) link

Is there a Rolando mix or something? I checked discogs and can't find it, but might be worth a look. I like Rolando so maybe.

Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:51 (sixteen years ago) link

i thought it was 'spides' in ireland, or is that more of a belfast thing?

zappi (joni), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:53 (sixteen years ago) link

Gregory Henry, are you, er, well, is that your name?

Enrique (Enrique), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:54 (sixteen years ago) link

I come from a working class backround so I when I sometimes make fun of "white trash" etc. I feel like it's okay -- but if I hear someone who I know is from a more middle or upper class backround do it I get annoyed. I realize this is totally hypocritical and irrational.

I don't know that it is. It grates on me for a white guy to quote Chris Rock's "I wanna join the KKK" stuff. You get the privilege to make fun of your own class/ethnicity/religion, where other people don't.

To answer Jerry's initial question - it's OK because there's often an implied "the poor deserve to be poor, it's of their own doing" angle, that most people wouldn't think of saying about ethnic groups.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:56 (sixteen years ago) link

the poor deserve to be poor, it's of their own doing

This implication really pisses me off.

Ricardo (RickyT), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:57 (sixteen years ago) link

I don't know that it is. It grates on me for a white guy to quote Chris Rock's "I wanna join the KKK" stuff. You get the privilege to make fun of your own class/ethnicity/religion, where other people don't.

Yeah, but class is mobile and race isn't, really. At what point can someone no longer pull the 'hey, I'm working class' line?

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:59 (sixteen years ago) link

How mobile is class? You're always bound by your family, your birthplace, your education, your accent.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 29 April 2004 20:59 (sixteen years ago) link

I'm not saying it's totally mobile - I'm just saying if someone has come from a working class background but has managed to get a college education etc., then I think it's a bit rich for them to make the "hey, I'm working class too - I can diss those who didn't make it all I like" excuse.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:02 (sixteen years ago) link

The problem is that class is both a mental state and an actual financial state. I think the middle class see it as mobile (ie: "I'm not priveleged, anyone can be like me with hard work"). A (much richer) friend of mine says its an aspirational thing, your aspirations are what determines your class, thus I'm at university- I'm middle class. This just seems vastly flawed to me.

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:02 (sixteen years ago) link

(vague-ish x-post)

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:03 (sixteen years ago) link

I think the middle class see it as mobile (ie: "I'm not priveleged, anyone can be like me with hard work"

Wow! Can you not at least say 'tend to'. I don't remotely believe that I'm not privileged.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:05 (sixteen years ago) link

I don't see how.

Could inter-class tensions be on a more level playing field than racial ones? I mean am I betraying the fact I live in a young country by wondering if there are even half as many racial slurs against white people as there are classist slurs against the rich?

I'm not for a second saying this justifies anything, just asking a question really. Just that class seems to be almost an either or sometimes, "you yob" or "you snob" type deal.

It's funny actually, when I think of meeting guys out at clubs who looked like stereotypical "knackers", on e, and they're like "where are you from then?"

"Oh you fucking posh cunt! *big smile*"

"haha, I guess I am *big smile*"

"You probably think I'm a total scumbag? Are you in college you lazy shite? *big smile*"

"Yeah I am! Nah I don't think you're a scumbag!"

etc etc etc

Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:05 (sixteen years ago) link

Yes, but you're on drugs Ronan.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:06 (sixteen years ago) link

Gregory Henry, are you, er, well, is that your name?

Pretty much, Enrique - Henry's a middle name {see e-mail} and I guess people mostly call me Greg, but whatever. Why?

Gregory Henry (Gregory Henry), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:07 (sixteen years ago) link

I agree with that, N., it would annoy me less for someone who did the rags-to-riches thing to make a classist joke than someone who was born privileged. But, in my experience, it's a lot less likely for the former to do so.

Anyway, I'm with the "make fun of everyone equally" side, if only that happened.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:07 (sixteen years ago) link


I think the "tend to" was implied N, as the bit in speech-marks was a

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:08 (sixteen years ago) link

I can't work out if I just come from a certain strata of the middle class that is totally above making snobby remarks about the working class, or if it's just that I come from a nice family!

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:10 (sixteen years ago) link

Hah.

I'll be honest, I had (have?) this massive chip on my shoulder about class issues for about five years. It just still comes through in the way I speak sometimes, no disrespect intended. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:11 (sixteen years ago) link

Yes N, that was an x-post.

Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:12 (sixteen years ago) link

Sorry I forgot the.com

Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:12 (sixteen years ago) link

What's the class equivalent of the Chappelle Show? Roseanne, maybe?

Both of them seem to make their jokes at the expense of audience assumptions (of ethnic stereotyping or class) rather than ethnicity or class itself.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:12 (sixteen years ago) link

Chappelle was great on Charlie Rose last night, btw.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:13 (sixteen years ago) link

Ronan, you have lost me - what was your joke?

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:15 (sixteen years ago) link

killjoy.

Ronan (Ronan), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:16 (sixteen years ago) link

Did he bring up the police not figuring out who killed Biggie and Tupac? He's mentioned that in every interview I've seen.

miloauckerman (miloauckerman), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:16 (sixteen years ago) link

not specifically, although I think he did mention Biggie and Tupac at some point.

hstencil (hstencil), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:17 (sixteen years ago) link

Dan OTM about American race issues being class issues in disguise. However something like Roseanne is really all about the black humour in working families (check out the 'Chris' stories or anything my mom says) and that funmaking and smartarseness are coping strategies.

Pashmina OTM about the original charvers. There are people in this world who try to make a virtue of their stupidity while insulting your intelligence and those are the people I have the least time for ever. But when working-class leavers denigrate those who remain, especially in the media, they're just trying to prove to their posher bosses that they're basically not some trained monkey and to get the 'we accept you, one of us' thing. Yucky.

Oi! Reynolds, Morley and Penman disciples and Bracewell wannabes, I can't believe I'm owning you on books - the absolute master texts for townie vs. collegebound 'rivalry' are Simon Frith's Sound Effects and Paul Willis' Learning To Labour, esp the latter, still totally relevant today despite being 30+ years old. There's a lot of merit in payback time for adolescent town v. gown thing and you can't exactly argue that this relationship does not carry on in the media in later life.

Oh and by the way when I hear middle-class kids who haven't quite grown up yet moaning about how they're only in the 90th percentile of the elite going mad about people in the 99.9th percentile (NOT a Wu-Tang ref, guv, honest) because it isn't THEM I say y'all are having a fit of PLEB RAGE. I think it's also behind why posh kids speak like Damon Albarn.

suzy (suzy), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:41 (sixteen years ago) link

Was that 'Reynolds disciple' supposed to refer to me? This is the first book of his I've read!

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 29 April 2004 21:44 (sixteen years ago) link

I can't see how the mobility thing makes much of a difference, it's possible but it's not all that easy for a hell of a lot of people. Besides, using the mobility argument to defend making fun of the poor does still imply that there's something to make fun of but that it's ok because those people could move from the group. Racism wouldn't (and shouldn't) be any more acceptable if black people could change their colour and move into different ethnic groups because the entire point is that there's nothing wrong with being black in the first place, it should work the same way here.

lupine lupin (lupinelupin), Thursday, 29 April 2004 22:10 (sixteen years ago) link

I didn't invoke the mobility thing to say it was OK to make such comments - it was to just to say that I didn't think there was a simple equivalence between Chris Rock making KKK jokes and people who were born working class being snobby about trailer trash.

N. (nickdastoor), Thursday, 29 April 2004 22:14 (sixteen years ago) link

N., in fairness, I probably fit that label more than you in terms of what I'd like, though I know what does it for Smiths fans, but you're like him in many weird coincidental ways I think we've discussed in the pub while drunk.

suzy (suzy), Thursday, 29 April 2004 23:23 (sixteen years ago) link

actually, i was thinking this morning while getting ready for the plane, im not sure its pinefoxes inane rudeness and autistic inability to engage with other people that is what is particularly disappointing, but the almost complete lack of intellectual curiosity. a particularly underwhelming trait.

perhaps n or jtn could copy and paste this in italics or something in one of their posts, otherwise the pinefox might not get to read it

gareth (gareth), Friday, 30 April 2004 06:42 (sixteen years ago) link

also, what n is getting at above makes a lot of sense. there is something problematic about people from working class backgrounds that have "escaped" (and even that is a somewhat difficult term in this context, are we talking escaping the people they grew up with?) then employing class based humour, a kind of best of both worlds schtick, with the get out clause of "oh i used to be that, its ok", theres something of the pulling up the ladder behind you about it

perhaps for this to be ok there needs to be still some kind of affinity/connection/affection/identification with your background (which i guess means you havent escaped it as such, you still see yourself as being of that upbringing, but even then i think you would have to actually engage with your past actively, otherwise you have cut all ties, camped to the other side etc)

gareth (gareth), Friday, 30 April 2004 06:47 (sixteen years ago) link

God, why did this thread turn suddenly so interesting right on a day when the bloody Americans have demanded that the report of all reports be due on Tuesday, totally ignoring our time-honoured tradition of Bank Holidays? Grrrr.

All I would really like to say is that N. and Ronan have said things which have really made me think. (Is this because they're also middle class, privately educated bastards?)

Class issues become more than just a (potentially mobile) money issue when you have two distinct and often inherently unequal cultures living side by side. In the US, this isn't as much masked by the race issue as exacerbated by it. In the UK, you have two markedly different and distinct cultures who have been living side by side (or rather one on top of another) effectively since the Norman Conquest (operatively since the Tudor era, but hey, what's 500 years between classes?).

A lot of my "classist" jokes are knee-jerk reactions of one sort or another - because I've developed a perverse reactionary "say what people would expect the toff to say becauase they're going to demonise you anyway" twitch. Because even when I say what I actually believe, people don't read what I'm saying, they just read what they would expect Someone Like Me to say. (Ronan's description struck a real chord with a younger me, even though I wasn't on drugs.)

Anyway... I've got to preserve my place in the class structure and get back to work now.

Super-Kate (kate), Friday, 30 April 2004 07:12 (sixteen years ago) link

The sentiment sucks; the website is wank. But the extreme behaviour described - utterly wank. The problem is the extrapolation of characteristics beyond this. Trisha and Kilroy acquire voyeuristic status as windows on what the working class are like rather than windows on a peculiarly 'touched' part of the underclass. It's also ultimately a shutting down of empathy, which is the conveyor belt of a better world. This is also seen in working class attitudes too - the teenage mother is either too stupid to get proper contraception (mc) or a slag or after a council flat (wc) rather than someone who you must try and enter the mind of someone who sees their entire life as a mother being the only horizon she's been offered, the only world she's ever been brought up to see had any meaning or possibility to her.

There are, then, cunts whereever you go. I think middle-class cuntishness towards the proles is getting worse though - and at the risk, I see Loaded culutre to blame, where politics got taken out of things, and anything was good for a laugh, and woe-betide the po-faced cunt who raises an objection (porn is cool and rocks, and don't fucking spoil it by reminding us of E. Europe human traffickers, you po-faced cunts). There was a quiet reserve which whilst looking down on the lower orders, wouldn't have laughed at them; it wasn't needed. The middle-class had won. The working class were for manual labour and for being repositories of all that was wrong, but not comic material; comedy is interesting as I think for most of the 20th C, most of British humour has been resolutely working-class in nature. Maybe the alternative comedy broke that back perhaps? Unintended consequence of lefty-gagmerchants being denigration of working class?

(cf debate about middle-clas left and rootedness in politics of reason, rather than empathy; vulnerable to sudden shifts (witness the Hitchens boys))

Dave B (daveb), Friday, 30 April 2004 14:48 (sixteen years ago) link

As usual I agree with Dave. And also with Norman. I think we should hold hands and run through the Ferrier Estate together, and then go and establish a humorous website called www.sloanetwats.com

I think council estate residents, chavs, pramfaces, dole scroungers, whatever the condescending nu-media working class chooses to call them, represent a level of "acceptable poverty" that makes them fair game - I can't imagine a similar level of barbed humour being considered acceptable when talking about, say, the homeless, or pensioners living in squalour, or even asylum seekers (although the latter is becoming regrettably less so).

I could expand on this and say it possibly has something to do with the British welfare state but I am hungover and it would probably be bollocks anyway.

Matt DC (Matt DC), Friday, 30 April 2004 15:13 (sixteen years ago) link

How do you pronouce "chav"? Is it short for something? What does it mean exactly?

Mary (Mary), Saturday, 1 May 2004 01:16 (sixteen years ago) link

Gosh, class is quite the invisible issue on ILx.

Most of the time I assume its invisibility is benign, then some assholish shit like this starts up.

Dickerson Pike (Dickerson Pike), Saturday, 1 May 2004 03:49 (sixteen years ago) link

I guess chav rhymes with have. Never heard the word before this week.

jel -- (jel), Saturday, 1 May 2004 10:54 (sixteen years ago) link

me either.
stealth marketing.
it's spreading.
north.

cozen (Cozen), Saturday, 1 May 2004 11:31 (sixteen years ago) link


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