Israel/Palestine post 10/7 - follow-on events/thoughts as relate to other countries

As stated.

I guess this thread is the place for this — I got a press release from our local Sheriff's Office today saying they'd had many media queries about "anti-Jewish Rhetoric being distributed" being distributed in our county. (Apologies for the weird capitalized "rhetoric," our Sheriff's Office is only quasi-literate.) It just said that their major crimes and gang units were "looking into the matter," with no further detail.

I haven't seen examples of what this is referring to, and it struck me that it could be either our local Nazi/Proud Boy types out there distributing horrible leaflets, OR it could be student-led "Free Palestine" social media posts or something, and those things seem like they're increasingly being conflated.

Best piece I've read on literary culture at this time. Hard not to conclude the whole thing is a disgrace.

https://thebaffler.com/latest/at-the-threshold-of-humanity-kattan

Don't know much about this organization but this seems like one way to counteract those who try to stir hate:

The pro-Palestine protesters made it clear that the masked neo-Nazis were not welcome, chanting “Nazis Go Home,” and “show your faces, you fucking cowards,” the Daily Montanan reported.

That is just one of the tactics that organizers of pro-Palestine solidarity protests can use to make clear to neo-Nazis that they are not welcome in that movement, according to Ben Lorber, an extremism expert who is working on a book about antisemitism. “It is vital for Palestine liberation organizers and progressive activists to recognize and counter far-right actors who stand diametrically opposed to the movement’s principles and goals,” Lorber wrote in a recent guide for organizers.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/k7zx5a/neo-nazis-hijack-pro-palestine-protest-mike-enoch

Personally, I find it much better to see an effort to recognize and counteract this kind of thing, rather than dismissing or denying that it exists

that's encouraging

Black-Jewish Alliance ✊🏿✡
@BlackJewishA
Police are attempting to arrest Jews in prayer.

We shout “let us pray” for Palestine.

The police have confiscated copies of our speeches.

GET YOUR COP HANDS OFF OUR JEWISH COMRADES

Video of harassment within that tweet.

https://www.theartnewspaper.com/2023/11/02/frick-museum-in-pittsburgh-postpones-islamic-art-exhibition-over-fears-it-would-appear-insensitive-or-traumatic-amid-gaza-war

“When war broke out in the Middle East, we were as heartbroken as everyone, and we realised that we were about to open an exhibition that a forgiving person would call insensitive, but for many people, especially in our community, would be traumatic.”

it's so insensitive and traumatic that muslims exist

this whole thing is so devastating.

This is where stuff like "It would be insensitive to publish this book about Soviet dissidents at this time" leads to.

yeah that is obviously ridiculous

An Israeli air strike on the Bureij refugee camp today

https://x.com/ramabdu/status/1720067423238308122

If you use this thread on anything going on in Gaza or Israel.

Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

The dissonance in reading about individuals expressing concerns about anti-Semitic violence rising in North America while 400 Arab children are dying every day in Gaza is, frankly, enraging

I have seen videos of anti-Semitic violence over the past week. These videos are exclusively Jewish peace protesters getting harassed by cops in North America, Orthodox Jewish peace protesters getting beaten by Israeli Police in Israel

My heart is ripped in two for my Jewish friends who are saying “not in my name” and being disowned, being called “self-hating Jews”, or— as the Times Of Jerusalem said in an op-ed two days ago: “anti-Zionists who claim to be Jewish are as Jewish as the Westboro Baptist Church that claimed to be Christian”

Jfc just because you’re saying “stop bombing Gaza” doesn’t make you “anti-Zionist”, to begin with

I was bothered by a now ex-friend who told me “how can you call it Gazan genocide when they (the Gazans) procreate so quickly”; fine, first I will block you and never speak to you again, second I will call it something else. What, tho? Israel already doesn’t acknowledge a nakba exists. Anti-war Jews are liberally calling it a holocaust, a shoah; those terms are not allowed to me as a non-Jew.

I feel like one can’t even call it “war” or “a conflict”; Gideon Levy argued that it is neither of these things, that it is a violent occupation, nothing more

Haaretz today reports Netanyahu’s latest speech: “nothing can stop us”.

Anyway, 9000 Gazans dead today, 3 hostages returned, congrats everyone

“anti-Zionists who claim to be Jewish are as Jewish as the Westboro Baptist Church that claimed to be Christian”

I mean ... fwiw, I do think a very not insignificant number of Christians are let's just say in Westboro's ballpark, if not on the same base

"I was bothered by a now ex-friend who told me “how can you call it Gazan genocide when they (the Gazans) procreate so quickly”"

So much hate.

(xp Not the point of the thread, I know, sorry)

"The dissonance in reading about individuals expressing concerns about anti-Semitic violence rising in North America while 400 Arab children are dying every day in Gaza is, frankly, enraging"

posters on this board are worried about their children being bullied at school for being Jewish

Sorry if my posts were emotional or “in the wrong thread” I shouldn’t post when I’m in a news consumption crying spiral, and I shouldn’t read pro-violence NYT articles (or the NYT at all), I am going to call a friend

I agree with everything else in your post, but you can be horrified by the massacre of innocents in Gaza (and the West Bank) while also being worried about anti-semitic violence

Tbh, the biggest “holy shit what are you guys doing” anti-Semitism concern over the past week has been seeing people on social media cheering on “Yemen declares war on Israel” when it’s the Houthis declaring war, not the Yemeni gvmt, and if anybody is cheering for Houthis then we have a big fucking problem

I have been seeing the odd report of AS attacks across Europe now, like this one.

A Moldovan couple arrested for allegedly spray-painting Stars of David on a Paris school last week reportedly told investigators they were acting on orders from an “individual in Russia.”https://t.co/VvJOmmoCAh

— The Daily Beast (@thedailybeast) November 2, 2023

in the larger world, the anti-semitism is probably largely being driven by people who care less about the plight of the Palestinian people and care more about being anti-semitic, and seeing an opportunity for an opening to be a bit more free with their bigotry.

"zionist jews" now trending on twitter, that's that shit i don't like

Caitlyn Jenner's dead name is also trending there today, which says it all

sorry meant to post on the "is this anti-semitism?" thread

I thought this was pretty good:

You are criticizing Israel wrong. Here’s how to do it correctly. pic.twitter.com/DiwBTJOuiG

— Matt Lieb?? (@mattlieb) October 28, 2023

nice to finally see a video of Van Horn Street

in the larger world, the anti-semitism is probably largely being driven by people who care less about the plight of the Palestinian people and care more about being anti-semitic, and seeing an opportunity for an opening to be a bit more free with their bigotry.

― omar little, Thursday, November 2, 2023 12:29 PM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

This is upsetting me a lot right now. I know it sounds naïve but I was genuinely surprised at how fast people seized the opportunity to be flat out anti-Semitic. I grew up spending 1/2 the year in a mostly Jewish community in NY where I as a gentile was often the odd one out. 3 of my 5 lifelong close friends are Jewish. I said to one of them yesterday that I think I grew up in this little bubble were I didn't realize how much anti-semitism there still was out there and he was like yeah no shit you're from NY. Anyway - there are a million upsetting things (upsetting isn't anywhere near strong enough) happening right now but I have been thinking a lot about exactly this, OL. :/

it's not good. i have a friend who was indulging in some "deep thoughts" about judaism around the time kanye was on one about jewish people, and i had an instagram convo w/him re: a couple of his posts. i don't know that i reached him, but i tried. another friend (no longer a friend) started to get very alt-right and was an associate of ow3n b3njamin for awhile, a podcast comedian type guy who started to get into some anti-semitic and racist stuff a few years ago. that particular friend is long gone. he was at my wedding. he probably helped hold me up high in my chair during the hora. he just wound up being a particularly "bad actor" in life. and a pernicious influence on others.

i live in a bubble in Los Angeles obv, but shit does happen here. threats against synagogues, anti-semitic graffiti on a famous local deli last night, etc...

the Poetry Foundation shelved a 3500-word review of a poetry book that discusses the book's criticisms of Israel...the poet author of the book is, of course, Jewish, and so is the reviewer.

The donor pocketbook is where artistic freedom hits a wall

This is where stuff like "It would be insensitive to publish this book about Soviet dissidents at this time" leads to.

― Beyond Goo and Evol (President Keyes)

yeah that is obviously ridiculous

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive)

Reflexive censorship of art always seems to crop up when wars begin and wartime propaganda cranks up the red hot rhetoric. Even as recently as the invasion of Ukraine there were ridiculous people calling for cancellation of symphonies by Russian composers as a sign of solidarity with Ukrainians.

O rly

If a HAMAS sympathizer or a HAMAS-adjacent amateur lone wolf carries out a gun attack in the USA killing more than 10 people in the name is Palestine … this poll will flip like a flapjack. https://t.co/NkWdyaliV7

— Malcolm Nance (@MalcolmNance) November 2, 2023

and if my granny had wheels, she'd be a bicycle. I like the specificity of ten or more people, it shows a vigorous imagination.

Reflexive censorship of art always seems to crop up when wars begin and wartime propaganda cranks up the red hot rhetoric. Even as recently as the invasion of Ukraine there were ridiculous people calling for cancellation of symphonies by Russian composers as a sign of solidarity with Ukrainians.

― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Thursday, November 2, 2023 1:41 PM (five hours ago) bookmarkflaglink
My kid’s teacher canceled their Russia unit. Like I really don’t think it matters to Ukrainian lives whether our kids are learning about faberge eggs and Baryshnikov

re: that poll.. I'm not really sure that Israel needs much military support anyway... they're a major arms manufacturer/exporter, inventors of the Uzi submachine gun. And they seemed to have no issues selling arms to South Africa's white minority government

and yet the House just approved 14.5 billion in aide to Israel for some reason

$4 billion for the Iron Dome, which kind of seems like locking the gate after the dog gets out.

Wake Forest professor resigns after backlash due to tweet

https://journalnow.com/news/local/wake-professor-resigns-following-backlash-of-social-media-post-on-israeli-hamas-war/article_4e1022a4-78ea-11ee-a828-ffa8e334019a.html

(She’s a really good poet, fwiw!)

14.5 billion in aide to Israel for some reason

er, mm, by long tradition all those billions can only be spent on armaments produced by US-based death merchants military-industrial complex manufacturers.

And lots of defence contracting

Protests are being planned for Armistice Day. Looks like the match will be lit on the tiniest pretence

"They died for your freedom, but don't you dare think about exercising it." https://t.co/xyCICKV35j

— James B (@piercepenniless) November 3, 2023

Clare Hymer
@ClareHymer
HAPPENING NOW: Another peaceful sit-in calling for a ceasefire in Gaza, this time at Kings Cross Station.

the only additional freedoms that came because of GB participation in the world wars was the bankrupting and partial destruction of an evil global empire and the resultant decline arguably sped up the process of decolonisation that followed. "Protect our freedoms" my fucking arsehole, it was a warfare state that forced conscripts onto the battlefield, which is the absolute opposite of freedom.

David Adler
@davidrkadler
New bill in the French 🇫🇷 Senate : 'An insult committed against the State of Israel is punishable by two years of imprisonment and a fine of 75,000 euros.'

I don't even want to paste in what Germany are doing, just utterly disgusting

Belgian transport workers saved the lives of thousands of Jews in the 1940s by unlocking the doors of trains headed for the extermination camps. Now, they're refusing to load weapons onto ships headed to Israel. This is a meaningful & timeless solidarity with humanity. pic.twitter.com/kvcUMcnJd7

— Amro Ali (@_amroali) November 3, 2023

Really appalling.

I don’t think the US government gave a shit about Rachel Corrie either.

Dear Americans, If you are killed by the Israeli government, our country won't care.

No one will be held accountable. It doesn't matter who you are, Israel can kill Americans and get away with it. https://t.co/oUa8LRoWQo

— Rashida Tlaib (@RashidaTlaib) September 9, 2024

Thread on the NYer piece, about Jewish Currents.

I didn't know that Camus quote ("my mother over justice"). Its appalling.

It was inevitable that a major magazine was going to do a piece on @JewishCurrents & I dont besmirch anyone for trying to counterbalance the Leifers of the world. But the Journalist's outsized focus on "disillusioned" liberals is cloyingly nauseating herehttps://t.co/YMuLvejpXw

— Nathan Tankus (@NathanTankus) September 9, 2024

Uh… the public was extremely divided on the issue prior to Tet Offensive, so to even say “public opinion” is misleading. 1967 is when the antiwar protests really started ramping up, and … a lot of it had to do with the draft and restrictions on deferments.

It makes me wonder if there is a significant amount of antiwar sentiment and service avoidance among Israeli youth … and if not, then wtf
― sarahell, Tuesday, August 27, 2024 1:20 AM (two weeks ago) bookmarkflaglink

Anvil covered this somewhat, but I find it to be a weird tic of Americans to view every situation in the world through the lens of something Americans have experienced. Vietnam could not be a worse analogy for Gaza. The vast majority of Israel's population lives within maybe two hours drive to Gaza. Most Americans had never even heard of Vietnam/French Indochina. Not a single American had been killed by Vietnamese people. Huge percentages of Israelis know someone killed by Hamas, either on October 7 or in one of their past bombings. Most Israelis have at some point gone into bomb shelters under Hamas rocket fire (or Hezbollah rocket fire, or both).

Americans have literally never had a modern war on or even near their soil. There are a lot of different Israeli sentiments about Gaza, but the idea that Vietnam would be a particularly useful tool in guessing how Isrealis would react to a situation that pretty much could not be more different is silly. I got on the same point when people were trying to make it into a 9/11 - Iraq analogy, which is also a terrible analogy, although maybe less terrible since at least Americans were killed in America on 9/11.

And just to be clear, I'm not talking about justifying the IDF's actions or anything in the situation, I'm just trying to address the failure to understand why there aren't more conscientious objectors. The average person who feels directly threatened doesn't say "well but my grandfather may have evicted their grandparents from their home," they just react to the threat. An ordinary person whose friend or relative is murdered doesn't tend to think "yes but there are historical reasons." Israelis who grow up in Israel know Israel as their home and their country just like you know America as your home and your country, and if they feel like someone is attacking it/them, very few of them have the wherewithal to do historical and political analysis, they just want the threat to go away.

Certainly some people may see that in the long term the threat is more likely to go away if you reach a political settlement vs engage in forever war/occupation, but expecting ordinary people, and particularly ordinary 18 and 19yos, to respond to what they see as a threat on their lives by refusing to participate in a military in which nearly everyone they know serves, and being baffled when they don't, seems extremely clueless and sheltered.

they just want the threat to go away

that is true as far as it goes, but there are many paths Israel could take to 'making the threat go away' which do not involve genocide. it does not require any special historical analysis to see that negotiation is an available path that incidentally kills far fewer human beings than dropping large quantities of high explosives in a densely populated area until you are just (to borrow a memorable phrase) bouncing the rubble.

"In one photo, two Israeli soldiers snuggle up in the twin sized bed of a child they’ve either killed or displaced. In another, a child’s doll is splayed out on the hood of a car. Another soldier in a child’s bed. And another in a crib. Maybe this one goes in carefree: soldiers giggle uncontrollably in an emptied playground, pushing each other in red-binned carts. "

https://thebaffler.com/latest/running-amok-turfah

"The pervasive sadism cannot be explained away as the behavior of soldiers at war"

that is true as far as it goes, but there are many paths Israel could take to 'making the threat go away' which do not involve genocide. it does not require any special historical analysis to see that negotiation is an available path that incidentally kills far fewer human beings than dropping large quantities of high explosives in a densely populated area until you are just (to borrow a memorable phrase) bouncing the rubble.

― more difficult than I look (Aimless), Tuesday, September 10, 2024 1:16 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

Sure, but that doesn't really have anything to do with what I wrote, which is about individual 18 and 19yos' decision to become conscientious objectors or not, rather than what course the Israeli government chooses.

but the idea that Vietnam would be a particularly useful tool in guessing how Isrealis would react to a situation

I don't think anyone did that? The Vietnam detour was about American reactions and what gets Americans to stop supporting killing people outside of our borders.

Americans aren't being drafted and sent to fight in Israel, so I'm not really sure what relevance it has there either. But yes, other posters were doing that.

iirc the Vietnam detour was my fault, and that was within the context of discussing whether explicit images of suffering lead to stronger pushback against atrocities (as opposed to just the knowledge these atrocities are happening). So not really "about" either Israel or the US.

Mr. Blinken said that “no one should be shot and killed for attending a protest.”

“Apparently it was an accident, ricocheted off the ground and just got hit by accident,” he told reporters. That went beyond any explanation offered publicly by the Israeli military, and Mr. Biden did not say what it was based on.

Xp man alive — the uh preference not to want to kill people is still a thing. I don’t see that as uniquely American

Nor is the preference to not want to be killed

"Cradling the Israeli education system is a society that echoes those values. In 2014, settlers in the kibbutzim around Gaza gathered with their families on hilltops—bringing plastic chairs and old sofas, popcorn, and hookahs—to watch bombs drop on Palestinian homes. The following year, a group of settlers in the West Bank set a Palestinian home on fire, burning an eighteen-month-old boy and his parents to death; at a wedding sometime after, Israeli settlers recorded themselves dancing with guns as one repeatedly stabbed a photo of the baby. That same year, a Palestinian child in Jerusalem was kidnapped by settlers, doused with gasoline, and burned alive; two of the three settlers charged with his death were themselves minors. In 2024 at the border with Egypt, settlers blocking aid inflate bounce houses and distribute snacks to soldiers, and a child with an Israeli flag tied around her neck like a cape says to a journalist, “What I care? Kill them. I don’t care.”

tbh we don't really need two distinct threads anymore, but fwiw this one is about "other countries"

New faculty guidelines from Barnard College at Columbia University. Professors are not allowed to post signs on their door "that support a geopolitical view or perspective". When talking about "geopolitical views or perspectives", faculty must talk about both sides. pic.twitter.com/ol39ppYIWJ

— Layla 🪬 (@itslaylas) September 11, 2024

I'm just trying to address the failure to understand why there aren't more conscientious objectors

i could not possibly care less about anything

hundreds of thousands of people have been killed but i'm sure certain people had good reasons not to do the absolute least they could to even recognize it

was this posted here? it might offer some insight into IDF culture: https://www.theguardian.com/world/article/2024/jul/18/national-religious-recruits-challenge-values-of-idf-secular-elite

the Barnard guidelines are wild, though this is certainly not confined to that school

we’re a long way from 1968

idk about y'all but I find America's most elitist academic institutions enthusiastically embracing authoritarianism to defend a foreign nation's unprecedentedly violent campaign of genocide and ethnic cleansing a little ominous. they are really going to the mat for Israel!

see also: the Democratic Party. everyone rightfully freaking out over Trump's racist conspiracy theorizing at the debate needs to reckon with Biden freestyling for the IDF with his magical ricochet fantasy

Do we have an I Love Hyperbole thread?

there's the J0rdan S. one.

which part did you find hyperbolic?

"Unprecedentedly" might be hyperbolic here.

Oh god sorry I meant within Israel there

Enthusiastically and everyone

Oh and cryptosicko otm

"everyone" is obviously being used there to delimit a set ("everyone who")

I think plenty of “everyone who” has reckoned with it … sorry but your post read like an “If You’re Not Outraged, You’re not Paying Attention” bumper sticker …

I would bet that a lot of this “enthusiasm” is coming from a place of fear over not being fired or cancelled.

Fair enough, it’s true I can’t read minds. My point is they are going way overboard. I’m not sure how Barnard can get cancelled though?

I think plenty of “everyone who” has reckoned with it … sorry but your post read like an “If You’re Not Outraged, You’re not Paying Attention” bumper sticker …

― sarahell, Thursday, September 12, 2024 2:08 PM (fifty-three minutes ago)

Alright this post wasn't my finest work on ilx clearly. Perhaps people "reckoned with" his statement and decided to ignore it — it's still true I can't read minds. But Trump lying about cats and Biden lying about ricochet are both despicable and racist, but personally I'm seeing a big deficit in public commentary on the latter compared to the former

If you're not observing that same dynamic in your world of liberal people, fine w/e I can't argue with that and ilx doesn't pay me enough to do social science research

I think plenty of “everyone who” has reckoned with it … sorry but your post read like an “If You’re Not Outraged, You’re not Paying Attention” bumper sticker …

― sarahell, Thursday, September 12, 2024 11:08 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

honestly, the people who are “radical politics” scholars and etc who haven’t said anything are cowards and should never be given a thought ever again.

also if you are too afraid to speak out about obvious genocide being committed, then you fucking suck.

“oh no if i speak my conscience i will be fired” like then maybe start looking for a different fucking job

btw in case anyone wanted to read what I was referring to: https://barnard.edu/college-policies-procedures/barnard-college-expectations-community-conduct

“oh no if i speak my conscience i will be fired” like then maybe start looking for a different fucking job

And hopefully the radical scholars are consulting with other lawyers about how this is a violation of academic freedom and freedom of expression and there will be more protests…

wait now I'm confused. I meant the administrators when I hyperbolically referred to enthusiastically embracing authoritarianism -- did you think I meant the professors?

You did say everyone …

no in that context he said "America's most elitist academic institutions" which yeah I read as administrations

yes, I was also responding to the tweet that milo had just posted, which was about (insane) guidelines for faculty conduct. anyway, I am sorry for the confusion, it was not a good post. and fwiw I work and study at a university that has issued similar, though less comprehensive and batshit guidelines, so it's very clear to me who is trying to exert control over campus political activity. I don't fault the faculty

Thanks for that rob!

In terms of people deserving of being defended on ilx, senior administration at Ivy League universities are quite low on my list.

https://www.metrotimes.com/news/ag-nessel-charges-11-over-pro-palestinian-demonstrations-at-university-of-michigan-37334431

What a joke