Israel, Palestine & the Levant rolling events: Oct 23 on

As requested. WmC do you want to close the other thread?

Yair Wallach, who is an Israeli academic at SOAS very much not sympathetic to Likud/Bibi, is a good source on twitter atm, but like all the content out there atm, proceed at your own risk.

He retweeted this video of a young woman from one of the kibbutzes (kibbutzim?) that was attacked earlier:

By far the most powerful Israeli response I have seen.

This 19 year old girl survived the horrific massacre in Kibbutz Be’eri.

This is her message to her fellow Israelis and to the world.

Watch the whole thing.pic.twitter.com/qSPKZX4pzg

— Benzi Sanders (@BenzionSanders) October 14, 2023

Thanks, gyac.

Chotiner and Sari Bashi, the program director at Human Rights Watch:
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-humanitarian-catastrophe-in-gaza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1W43C8xhh5E

Sam & Emma interviewing Omar Shakir, Israel & Palestine Director at HRW this morning

looks like David Dayen in there too

Yes, but trying to ask a question of the guest when Sam is in interview mode is a tall order

Why is our political class so invested in suppressing criticism of the apartheid regime? The answer is obvious. Western states support Israel in order to maintain their power at a crucial crossroads of world trade. Challenging that power is impermissible, because any attempt to hold Israel accountable for its crimes is – by definition – an attempt to hold our own states accountable for their involvement in them. Not only are our rulers prepared to let Israel level Gaza; they will even provide it with diplomatic cover and military supplies.

https://newleftreview.org/sidecar/posts/impending-genocide

As noted, I know numerous IRL people with Israeli flag avatars saying that they stand with Israel no matter what.

Plus I know IlXorz and others who almost uniformly condemn Israel as a brutal apartheid state that continues to use "but the Holocaust" as a laminated carte blanche for every atrocity the IDF wishes to commit. (There is a bit of a strawman in there but that's another topic for another time.)

I have met exactly zero people in between. I know it is not about me and/or my feelz. And I don't love "both sides"ing US politics either. The discourse is polarized and will remain so.

Absolutely no-one has talked about this situation at work, there's been no conversation about it at all, maybe people don't talk about it at work in the US either I don't know.

No offence Tom but that was a post I was hoping could be left behind in the old thread

xp, thank you for that gyac, incredibly moving. I also recommend the NYTimes Daily from today on the situation on the ground in gaza from the perspective of people caught in it, difficult listening:
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/16/podcasts/the-daily/gaza-israel.html

(the ep labeled "Voices from Gaza")

I’m just going to say that I am not in-between on this issue, but that should be obvious by now.

xp I know people are all about bearing witness but I find this stuff incredibly upsetting.

I don’t think it was mentioned but Humza Yousuf who is Scotland’s first minister has family trapped in Gaza. I am linking this video as I find this content extremely upsetting.

Bernard's mother and family went out of their way to tell me that they would be praying for my family in Gaza. We hugged, we cried, and we promised to re-dedicate ourselves to peace and to be unequivocal; no innocent man, woman, or child should pay the price of another's actions. https://t.co/Vv1fz9gXqJ

— Humza Yousaf (@HumzaYousaf) October 13, 2023

Also, for context on the Kibbutz Be'eri post and those less familiar with the situation of the past 15-20 years (and again disclaimer I am hardly an expert myself): from Ariel Sharon onward, Israeli policy has been increasingly tilted toward a phony sort of "disengagement." In my mind, it traces back to the building of the West Bank wall although that could be simplistic take. But Netanyahu has turbo-charged this idea, basically that Israel could just kind of ignore the territories (at least other than soldiers stationed in the West Bank) rather than engage in any more ongoing negotiations, that the West Bank could continue to develop economically even without full agency or freedom, and that Gaza would be the kind of counterexample (i.e. life would be worse than in the West Bank) as long as Hamas was there. That terrorism could simply be prevented or minimized through "security," the settlements in the West Bank could continue quietly, and most Israelis would just live their lives and not worry.

Netanyahu is also notoriously corrupt and venal, and he has maintained power through a coalition with right-wing settler and religious parties, giving both more power (which also angers the more secular wings of Israeli politics as Israel gradually takes on additional trappings of theocracy, though it is hardly a full theocracy).

Netanyahu also favors his voters. The kibbutzes near Gaza tend actually to be center-liberal to left. They are not Netanyahu voters. There is a strong sense that Netanyahu "neglected" these areas as the girl expressed in her video, and that is also reflected in the sense that he neglected security near the Gaza border. I genuinely do not know whether Netanyahu "allowed" the attack but I seriously doubt it for reasons I stated in the prior thread. I think this was more hubris and stupidity and myopia.

"I don’t think it was mentioned but Humza Yousuf who is Scotland’s first minister has family trapped in Gaza. I am linking this video as I find this content extremely upsetting."

Mentioned this in the last Israel thread.

You can count on one hand the number of European leaders who have talked about Palestinians as human beings

And they’re all backpedaling now given protests and public pushback.

The President of the University of Pennsylvania has released her 3rd or 4th public statement apologizing for letting a Palestinian writers conference take place last month

The President of the University of Pennsylvania has released her 3rd or 4th public statement apologizing for letting a Palestinian writers conference take place last month

people are so fucking gross

Public statements issued by university presidents are generally tailored to a narrow and specific segment of the public, mainly anyone with influence over university revenues or endowments. They are paid to know how to read that room.

Aimless, we know. No offense.

Well, yeah. When you've got Dick Wolf threatening your donations because you let Palestinians into a building named after him...

a name like Dick Wolf must never be besmirched

Always guarantee the BBC will always be fucked.

The BBC admits that it misled the public about pro-Palestinian demonstrations in the UK. pic.twitter.com/oi4nVf5DN7

— Lowkey (@Lowkey0nline) October 16, 2023

i think about this poem by Palestinian poet Najwan Darwish all the time pic.twitter.com/jv5WOOjobb

— هستی hasti (@youarehasti) October 16, 2023

xp - That retraction was also poorly phrased and could be misleading.

This is @GhassanAbuSitt1, a surgeon who is currently saving the lives of Palestinians in a hospital in Gaza. He's just reported that counter terrorism police have showed up at his house in the UK and harrased his family.pic.twitter.com/GOvl5aQLHG https://t.co/bugmmZPAMM

— Saul Staniforth (@SaulStaniforth) October 16, 2023

That retraction was also poorly phrased and could be misleading.

glad i'm not the only one who thought this

OTM

I know this is old news, but it still blows my mind that the range of Acceptable Opinions on Israel is narrower in the West than it is in Israel.

That Darwish poem is great. Notable that Armenians were just cleansed from Artsakh by Azerbaijan and absolutely no-one in the west cared.

Yup. Armenia could be invaded in the next few weeks btw.

xxp two words: Social Media.

Nuanced discussions are often lacking in the echo chambers of social media and the 24 hour news cycle. The only place where I've seen nuanced discussions about the topic are on platforms that favor more nuanced discussion, such as ILX and (yes, believe it or not) Reddit.

I do wonder if the "outrage economy" of clickbait extremism online and the 24 hours news cycle will finally hit a limit of societal acceptability in western democracies, but I'm not holding my breath, they still make $$$

"We called a pro-palestinian march pro-Hamas. We accept that this was a thing that we said". WTF.

Now here's the weather.

True, I understand in theory how misinformation supposedly works. But I'm finding it extremely challenging to trust some of the news sources being cited and finding myself turning to reddit, and other news sources that I don't normally consult trying to see what areas of dispute exist over even just the factual reporting.

xp

Interestingly enough, a private forum I participate in is completely avoiding talking about this, and honestly it might be for the best.

The ukpolitics sub is overall fanatically pro-occupation and pro-genocide, and they are gradually losing their shit as they observe the public becoming turned off by this stance. Also they are usually witheringly critical of the Tories but have suddenly become staunchly supportive of Sunak and Braverman.

Are you taking about Reddit or something

I have met exactly zero people in between.

To the extent I've talked to people about this, almost everybody I know IRL is "in between" the two positions you describe.

Reddit is a paragon of “nuanced discussion” now. We are truly fucked.

Actually was just thinking about this specific issue in non-Reddit terms which still definitely apply to Reddit. How this conflict is a godsend for the extreme right (and whatever apologists they may have claiming to be “leftist”). Because it so thoroughly divides actual leftists from liberals steeped in realpolitik or whatever they’re on.

a name like Dick Wolf must never be besmirched

There's nothing decent to besmirch. The Law & Order "franchise" is a formulaic, sensationalist pile of shit. All 1,316 episodes of it.

Also pretty depressing how my social media feed was blissfully Ben Shapiro-free until various people decided his thick-headed, one-dimensional take on the Middle East was the voice of reason this past week.

xxp two words: Social Media.

Nuanced discussions are often lacking in the echo chambers of social media and the 24 hour news cycle. The only place where I've seen nuanced discussions about the topic are on platforms that favor more nuanced discussion, such as 4chan and (yes, believe it or not) Stormfront.

We get it. You don't like Reddit.

I don’t like social media illiterates upholding a literal right wing extremist-captured disinformation service as their go-to for balanced discussion.

lol what

Lol hey i wasnt even posting here viborg

Yes, the famously extremist platform, reddit

Extremely milquetoast maybe

Oh shit it’s already Nov 23.

perhaps the US not giving Israel the funding and persisting with the no red lines policy towards their actions in Gaza (including a genocidal war of annihilation) would actually be a very effective way of preventing other Arabic countries from entering the war. That seems pretty obvious to me.

alas, the CIA only murder democratically elected left-wing leaders

"Preventing other countries from entering the war" rings hollow. What other Arab countries are poised to enter the war? Syria is a disaster, Jordan's certainly not going to, Egypt is barely holding its shit together, Iran/Hezbollah are already engaged in southern Lebanon, Saudi Arabia is pro-Israel, the UAE buys a lot of weapons FROM Israel.

"Fear that Arab and Muslim states might be forced by internal pressure to de-normalize relations with Israel" might be a more accurate way to put it but, uh, boo-hoo.

Which other Arabic countries would enter the war? I don't see any having either the appetite or the capacity to do anything, most only have palace guard militaries. Outside of that there's only really Iran that has both the capacity and the appetite, either directly or via Hezbollah. I guess Hezbollah is a de facto military being stronger than the Lebanese military

Even the thawing of relations is only paused not ended. Feels like most Arabic countries are making just enough movement to placate domestic audience, but not sure about anything beyond that

that was an xp, hence the overlap

also wouldn't all the US/UK military assistance deployed in the region be the reason other countries wouldn't really fancy it? I think to credit sleepy Joe when he sleepwalking through this on the US default setting towards Israel, with playing some nuanced diplomacy game is just pure projection.

https://t.co/kejiV1SUtq pic.twitter.com/Mu0ADkEQbo

— Austin Ahlman (@austinahlman) November 22, 2023

Sorry interview already posted in the correct thread. Just another amazing interview

alas, the CIA only murder democratically elected left-wing leaders

Oh I know, I’m just speaking wishfully; several of my friends are posting about how they’d like Netanyahu to take the ceasefire as an opportunity to step down; better that Yair Lapid et al organize some kind of gtfo plan with popular support

“Other nations entering the war” is literally giving me nightmares; if you guys think it’s unlikely it is relaxing to hear. I worry that Netanyahu’s intentions becoming more obviously ghastly will cause Biden to justifiably listen to his conscience and speak up, pull out, and suddenly it’s full-tilt Iran-Jordan-Lebanon declarations; but these are my nightmares! maybe not reality

@ ufo, my “fourth option” wasn’t being presented as a preference, but as my interpretation of a most-likely outcome. Call it Overton window or call it manufactured consent, I’ve been arguing for weeks that this is Israel’s only intention and the most-likely outcome— and it’s even working on me. Personally, on Nov 21, I’d prefer to see 2m Gazan refugees than 15k more dead Gazans.

oh i wasn't suggesting you preferred it, just agreeing with it as a possible outcome and likely what the israeli government prefers. i really don't know how likely it is though - the us was originally open to it, but egypt has seriously threatened war over it and the us of course really does not want a wider war. it would also really only happen if israel secures military victory over hamas which seems like a dubious prospect?

re: escalation - hezbollah is the main threat- there's obviously conflict there but it's still not really full-on, but if they did escalate there's all sorts of potential chaos that results - the usa has obviously threatened retaliation and there's all sorts of iranian-backed militias in iraq etc. that could get further involved. i figure that at this point it is probably unlikely unless hamas is seriously in trouble, or some wider chaos breaks out for other reasons? egypt also sees the possibility of having to deal with 2 million refugees who are ideologically hostile to it as an existential threat and has threatened war if that happens. the houthis in yemen are trying to get involved as they can be from where they are but don't have the means to get more directly involved.

Reading this piece on "from the river to the sea" and it lines up with our conversation yesterday on how Israeli democracy is enabling what might have been fringe ideas to take centre stage in an eliminationist turn.

"Between the sea and the Jordan there will be only Israeli sovereignty"

https://www.versobooks.com/en-gb/blogs/news/zionism-s-political-unconscious

"the central contradictions of this settler-nation have become ever harder to sustain: the state can be either Jewish or democratic, but it cannot be both. Unable to give up its commitment to the former, the need to change the demographic balance once again comes to the fore. For the radical right, that truth is easily spoken out loud. For Jewish-Israelis who consider themselves more centrist, liberal even, perhaps the opportunity offered by this war is the only way out: transfer in the name of humanitarian concern. Once out, as every Palestinian knows, they will never be allowed to return."

Following on from yesterday's discussion on Palestinian prisoner exchange.

https://www.vox.com/world-politics/2023/11/22/23972908/palestinian-prisoners-israel-administrative-detention

"In 2022, Amnesty International released a comprehensive report pointing to the practice of administrative detention as just one example of how the Israeli state subjugates Palestinians and cracks down on dissent. Since 1967, Israel has issued over 1,000 military orders that criminalize a range of activities in Palestinians’ daily lives, including waving political symbols like flags, being in certain areas without permits, and any kind of speech that can fit into a loosely defined charge of “incitement.” Citing decades of evidence, the Amnesty report outlined an “intentional Israeli policy to detain individuals, including prisoners of conscience, solely for the non-violent exercise of their right to freedom of expression and association, and punish them for their views.”"

Exploring the once-familiar streets of my city, now barely recognizable in the Zs' destruction. Every step is a journey through memories, anger and nostalgia. https://t.co/l50FRoCDYy

— Dr. Mustafa Elmasri (@Gaza_Psych) November 24, 2023

If Israel lost support/funding/land/whatever, and Hamas gained land/support/funding/land/whatever, wouldn't they just ramp up their attacks

I think a relevant factor here is that when people have something, they have something to lose.

I just want to say in passing that if I'm on the Facebook app and scrolling, it'll regularly display "hey here's some stuff from Threads" and it's usually about this conflict, and when it is, it's always the most uninformed ahistorical nonsense (sadly not confined to one side) - I just want to say that this thread is doing really well and I'm proud of us.

Yeah my suggested Threads content is stunningly bad - “how dare you call for a ceasefire” vs “how dare you have a holiday meal celebrating another settler genocide”

oh yeah it's absolutely trash and the issue is if you click on a single one of them, you will get 10,000 more.

Meet Marah Bakir. She is from Jerusalem. She was 16 when she was arrested and detained by Israel. Today she was released. She is 24 years old. Her lawyer proved that she had done nothing wrong but still she was sentenced to prison.
Freedom feels good. pic.twitter.com/zwKKPPVn9g

— Dima Khatib (@Dima_Khatib) November 24, 2023

Yeah, judging from the other accounts in the comments, that doesn't seem to be a particularly accurate summation.

That summation is fine enough for me. And one of many children locked up and forgotten about till today.

Remi Kanazi
@Remroum
What a "pause" looks like for Palestinians:

~Palestinians shot at when returning home to the North, injuring dozens

~Israel fires teargas at prisoners set to be released at Ofer prison

~Israel storms the home of a Palestinian set to be released, harassing their family

it does sound like she tried to stab some people to death. I'm not sure what the trial was like or what proof was shown though.

Right.

The WaPo story was the one I found the most tragic/sad. She allegedly stabbed or attempted to stab a solider, was in turn shot by the police during her arrest, then an Israeli solider (whose father was recently killed by stone throwing Palestinians) rushed to apply first aid, saving her life. Circle of violence.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/10/16/her-dad-was-killed-by-palestinian-stone-throwers-weeks-later-she-saved-a-suspected-stabbers-life/

Soldiers, border guards and cops in occupied lands are fair game IMO.

rasha abdulhadi
@rashaabdulhadi
·
4h
As we watch 150 of more than 10,000 kidnapped Palestinian hostages be released:

Remember that Palestinians can be taken by the settler apartheid state for no reason or any reason, can be held without charge or "trial" for any amount of time, & no "international law" intervenes

An Israeli soldier from the Combat Engineering Corps dedicates to his daughter on her birthday by detonating an entire building in Gaza shortly before the commencement of the ceasefire.#GazaGenocide pic.twitter.com/J76wjK9jlL

— Hani Siliman Salamah 🇵🇸 (@HaniSiliman) November 25, 2023

Pelham
@Resist_05
Israel makes those imprisoned serve their full sentence in prison even if they’re dead…

142 Palestinians that have died in prison (mostly children) are kept in refrigerators as a form of collective punishment and psychological torture against their families

wtf!!

Come on, what even is that claim

https://www.thenation.com/article/world/israel-postmortem-detention/

Thank you, wasn’t taking the word of a random Twitter account

i had similar reaction, did similar search, and found the same nation article. that shit is monstrous.

At what point does Israel become the US's worst ally? Like, Saudi Arabia's still on top, right? But how long can that last?

That tweet has a video from an Al Jazeera interview.

Hard to guess that without a link to the tweet!

Yeah I think it’s okay for us to post links here they can be useful.

Should've just said that a video was posted. Forgot on that occasion.

This is a thread. And the bombing will begin again soon.

---

corey robin
@CoreyRobin
·
22h
1/ "Israel’s assault is different. Experts say that even a conservative reading of the casualty figures reported from Gaza show that the pace of death during Israel’s campaign has few precedents in this century.

"The Israelis have released 117 Palestinians in the last 3 days & in that same time they've detained 116 new Palestinian prisoners.. across the occupied West Bank" pic.twitter.com/QiJfMFNrtR

— Saul Staniforth (@SaulStaniforth) November 27, 2023

Here’s a personal story about Palestinian child prisoners:

- In 2012, I was arrested in Hebron while participating in a march to open Shuhada street, which was a main market street for Palestinians until the Israeli military shut it down, and made it for Israeli settlers only.…

— Fadi Quran (@fadiquran) November 26, 2023

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/28/israeli-military-had-warning-of-hamas-training-for-attack-reports-say

so the leak points at the attack being meticulously planned rather than them being surprised at the lax security and killing more/taking far more hostages that they expected was possible.

Rohan Talbot
@rohantalbot
·
4h
Incredibly, Shifa Hospital has reportedly been able to restart dialysis services today for patients needing it in the north

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/28/israeli-military-had-warning-of-hamas-training-for-attack-reports-say

― Tom D has a right to defend himself (Tom D.), Tuesday, November 28, 2023 9:24 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

so the leak points at the attack being meticulously planned rather than them being surprised at the lax security and killing more/taking far more hostages that they expected was possible.

― vodkaitamin effrtvescent (calzino), Tuesday, November 28, 2023 9:48 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

Everything I've seen from the outset suggests the attack was meticulously planned for a long time. It's possible that both things are true, i.e. it was both meticulously planned and even more devastating than Hamas expected and they were able to take more hostages than expected. I also don't think "warning" means Israel knew with any certainty that an attack was imminent, and there were circumstances particular to the timing of the attack that meant security was even more lax than normal due to the holiday and the movement of extra troops to the West Bank.

I think pretty much everyone in Israel agrees that Bibi's govt was at a minimum grossly negligent, and some feel that he was extra careless because the people in the area attacked are mostly center-liberal to left and not Likkud voters.

Mariam Barghouti مريم البرغوثي
@MariamBarghouti
🚨large scale invasion of Jenin, north of the West Bank (11:00 local. At least 1,000 Israeli soldiers on the invasion and 120 armored vehicles (which is a parade of military power around 480 meters long)

🏥hospitals are being besieged and it’s premises taken over by Israeli forces.
🏥 ambulances being searched by the Israeli army and obstructed according to the Red Crescent.

Two days ago four Palestinians were killed in Jenin. The week before that, on November 17th there was a large scale invasion that killed three Palestinian men, but also left the refugee camp of Jenin destroyed.

- since last year at least 4 massacres happened in Jenin refugee camp. Beyond that, extrajudicial assassination of Palestinians suspect of confrontation with arms has been a constant occurrence. Often these assassination missions were also tasked with killing as many civilians and minors as possible, these constituted most of the killings in Jenin.

Right now, as the world stayed silent across every massacre and invasion of Jenin, 1000 soldiers are attacking the small camp.

The Israeli army cannot get enough of hospitals. Really love to fuck them up.

I can't remember if this has already been noted, but Israel has arrested nearly as many Palestinians as they've released over the past four days: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/11/28/arrests

Noted it in a tweet above. It's horrendous