"we'll change the things that need changing and that's all we'll change": the paSUKification of post-brexit politics 2021

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pic.twitter.com/bVhXIeMMBo

— bread and poses (@breadandposes) May 8, 2021

mark s, Sunday, 9 May 2021 08:37 (one year ago) link

Labour's majority in Batley & Spen is 3,525. The Brexit Party won 1,678 votes there in 2019. Not exactly a huge mountain for the Tories to climb.

— Max Shanly (@maxshanly) May 8, 2021

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 9 May 2021 08:40 (one year ago) link

This thread will follow the catastrophe, every step of the way 👍

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 9 May 2021 08:40 (one year ago) link

apparently Rayner was having a promotion commiserating drink in the pub last night

calzino, Sunday, 9 May 2021 08:41 (one year ago) link

I think the Batley mayoral results will be out today

calzino, Sunday, 9 May 2021 08:43 (one year ago) link

West Yorkshire even, Batley hasn't been nominated as the capital yet

calzino, Sunday, 9 May 2021 08:44 (one year ago) link

batley for capitol, nips for mayor
https://i.imgur.com/xOI6FtC.jpg

mark s, Sunday, 9 May 2021 08:48 (one year ago) link

probably loads of stalwarts of Batley’s goth scene that used to frequent the Xclusiv club in the 80's are corrupt local councillors now!

"West Yorkshire's first-ever metro mayor will be announced on Sunday in a seismic moment for the county."

lol the carved heads of 19th century mill owners will crumble and fall from buildings that have been converted into luxury apartments.

calzino, Sunday, 9 May 2021 08:57 (one year ago) link

Just assume everything I post itt has the sickos picture after it.

Senior Labour source tells me that when Shadow Cabinet members complained to Keir Starmer’s office about the terrible lines they were given to take to the media after the Hartlepool disaster, they were told Peter Mandelson had signed them off.

— Owen Jones 🌹 (@OwenJones84) May 9, 2021



Also, is this the new thread? Should the other be locked?

Scamp Granada (gyac), Sunday, 9 May 2021 09:46 (one year ago) link

this is the new thread and the other shd be locked, yes, YESSS!!!

mark s, Sunday, 9 May 2021 09:53 (one year ago) link

How can we destroy these good results.

One result of this brainrot is that Khan's final result vs Bailey (55% vs 45%) – better than *both* of Johnson's London efforts (51.5/48.5 & 53/47) – can't be talked about as the positive result it is & that it's *good* that progressive London can register dissent *and* back him.

— James B (@piercepenniless) May 9, 2021

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 9 May 2021 09:57 (one year ago) link

Keir Starmer is "electable" but can't win elections , he is "professional" but does things really badly - these terms are used by the media to describe aesthetic states , the look of 'electabilty' and 'professionalism', that are unrelated to the actual common meaning of the words

— Solomon Hughes (@SolHughesWriter) May 8, 2021

nothing that hasn't been said before, but Hughes has been consistently good at calmly dissecting the hot twaddle that the likes of Toynbee and Freedland write about Kieth.

calzino, Sunday, 9 May 2021 10:15 (one year ago) link

Toynbee literally said he is electable and if voters disagree it’s on them, satire is dead

Pinefox reviews Reviews (wins), Sunday, 9 May 2021 10:24 (one year ago) link

Small in the scheme of things, but just thinking about that cunty tweet Starmer's people did about Mikel Arteta when Arsenal were having that terrible run before christmas. Hope Arteta has allowed himself at least a small chuckle at all this

would love to see him go head to head with Jez in an Arsenal pub quiz, he'd get fucking skinned.

calzino, Sunday, 9 May 2021 10:34 (one year ago) link

Just surrounded himself with these ppl.

Here is Labour's new strategy director laughing at @survation for correctly identifying Labour's surge in the 2017 election. https://t.co/pkaVhOxxPb

— Alex Nunns (@alexnunns) May 8, 2021

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 9 May 2021 10:35 (one year ago) link

not the first time a bearded prophet was sneered at by a mob of half-witted fools!

calzino, Sunday, 9 May 2021 10:41 (one year ago) link

Tim Shipman has the wrong end of the stick, Kier Starmer’s wife has banned him from playing Champ Man.

AlanSmithee, Sunday, 9 May 2021 11:22 (one year ago) link

It was for his own good, he kept getting Man City relegated.

calzino, Sunday, 9 May 2021 11:35 (one year ago) link

lol

Chipping Norton (Oxfordshire) council result:

Lab: 42.6% (+8.5)
Con: 40.9% (-4.3)
Grn: 10.9% (+8.2)
LDem: 5.6% (-10.6)

Lab GAIN from Con

nashwan, Sunday, 9 May 2021 12:10 (one year ago) link

Bananaman: what did KS say about Arteta? I can't remember and can't find it.

the pinefox, Sunday, 9 May 2021 12:35 (one year ago) link

... no, hold on, that was Angela Rayner.

Are Animated Dads Getting Hotter? (Tom D.), Sunday, 9 May 2021 12:39 (one year ago) link

xxp

I'm getting reports that Oxford are also shutting out the Reds

calzino, Sunday, 9 May 2021 12:40 (one year ago) link

Problem for Labour is the realignment is still relatively asymmetric. Worthings are relatively few compared to the much speedier realignment towards the Tories in the north and midlands.

— Lewis Goodall (@lewis_goodall) May 9, 2021

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 9 May 2021 13:30 (one year ago) link

"problem" talk is almost entirely poll-focused = arse backwards = why the Labour Party is such a fucking mess now mostly

Chickpeas, Scamps and Beeves (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 9 May 2021 13:37 (one year ago) link

Brabin has won so there will be another by-election to look forward to.

Scampo di tutti i Scampi (ShariVari), Sunday, 9 May 2021 15:29 (one year ago) link

she got 30 000+ more first pref votes than the Tory man-boy, not quite Burnham level but an impressive win for her.

calzino, Sunday, 9 May 2021 15:34 (one year ago) link

by-elections are good again

Chickpeas, Scamps and Beeves (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 9 May 2021 16:08 (one year ago) link

itll be a real test for starmers labour

plax (ico), Sunday, 9 May 2021 16:11 (one year ago) link

there is a big Muslim vote in Batley, so a good chance of a lower than 2019 turnout and the Tories to win by a few thousand.

calzino, Sunday, 9 May 2021 16:17 (one year ago) link

if Kieth is looking for a good chippy there is one called Howies that has been there since the 50's and does their own house special "Irish Curry Sauce". Some people might tell him to fuck off though!

calzino, Sunday, 9 May 2021 16:21 (one year ago) link

I'm sure his team have already briefed him that working class people eat chips - and little else - in advance of any visit to the constituency.

Authoritarian Steaks (Tom D.), Sunday, 9 May 2021 16:35 (one year ago) link

as in Biffa Bacon in the north people just go up to chip shop counter and grunt "fuckin' chips"

calzino, Sunday, 9 May 2021 16:53 (one year ago) link

Just going to cut and paste this great post from plax at the dying end of the last thread
--

my sense is that politics and labour in particular is so populated by a huge array of think tank people PR hype men and career politicians shuttling back and forth between lobbying westminster and charity, desperately clinging on to the narrow idea world that supports their careers. anything that really challenges this status quo is the real enemy. The ideals of centrism and neoliberalism were supposed to craft a fairly comfortable niche in the end of history for all these people, the overarching hostility to 'populism' etc I think is borne of this. Anything transformative of this status quo is much more challenging to their position than labour becoming even more defanged than they currently are. I think the vaccillating anxiety around what the current tory government are doing from this point of view comes from the way in which they are obvioulsy both in the business of shredding norms (human rights, 'standards') and fortifying others (corporate hegemony, cultural conservatism).

But yeah I agree that they are deeply uninterested in winning power, they already have the kind of power they are interested in. and I agree that its not some 4d chess they're up to just knee-jerk aversion and hostility to anything that upsets basic tenets of what they consider modern approaches (c. 1996) and can thus bizarrely construct the notion of 'free broadband' as something dessicated and backward. They're sincere whey they say this isn't 'grown up' 'sensible' politics but what they mean is really because it upsets their idea of what it is to be a grown up, to move smoothly through a professionalised world where they wear a suit and say things with confidence. I think the career of chuka umunna is pretty instructive. anyway, i'm pretty sure this is the end of the line for the nhs so there's going to be a hell of a lot of consultancy roles for them to fight over once they've completely collapsed the labour party.

― plax (ico)

Andrew Farrell, Sunday, 9 May 2021 17:00 (one year ago) link

A senior Labour figure told a meeting with the leader’s office that Angela Rayner was “dressed inappropriately” on a visit to Hartlepool. She was wearing leopard-print trousers, heavy-duty stomper boots and a hoodie.

nice blend of misogyny and classism getting leaked from the Starmer office, vile people.

calzino, Sunday, 9 May 2021 17:04 (one year ago) link

Runners and riders for Labour selection for Batley and Spen by-election, according to local sources: Salma Arif, Leeds council cabinet member for public health, is who some believe the seat will be "stitched up" for

— Patrick Maguire (@patrickkmaguire) May 9, 2021

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 9 May 2021 17:09 (one year ago) link

Owen Jones tweet, guessing he is probably not just making this up

The reason the Labour reshuffle isn’t happening is because the shadow ministers Keir Starmer’s team are trying to demote are refusing to move, and are betting the house on the fact Starmer no longer has any political authority.

— Owen Jones 🌹 (@OwenJones84) May 9, 2021

A viking of frowns, (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Sunday, 9 May 2021 17:09 (one year ago) link

oh please let this be true

Chickpeas, Scamps and Beeves (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 9 May 2021 17:11 (one year ago) link

it's a bed-in!

with kieth and jenny and the gang

mark s, Sunday, 9 May 2021 17:17 (one year ago) link

That's that then. Labour loses control of Bristol City Council, ties for biggest party with the Greens on 24 councillors each

— cryskttlty (@cryskttlty) May 9, 2021

xyzzzz__, Sunday, 9 May 2021 17:31 (one year ago) link

Brabin hasn't officially won yet but still

Chickpeas, Scamps and Beeves (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 9 May 2021 17:34 (one year ago) link

oh they are still counting, lol I thought I figures I saw on my phone were the final count. 90 000 ahead on first prefs

calzino, Sunday, 9 May 2021 17:39 (one year ago) link

Are these Greens positioned for a real ascendancy or are they a comedy party

Clara Lemlich stan account (silby), Sunday, 9 May 2021 17:40 (one year ago) link

the Greens are not positioned for a real ascendancy

Chickpeas, Scamps and Beeves (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 9 May 2021 17:40 (one year ago) link

Leeds 2nd pref results through.

Brabin (Lab): 20,312 (112,624 total)
Robinson (Con): 11,579 (72,248 total)

calzino, Sunday, 9 May 2021 17:44 (one year ago) link

greens = 00s lib dems (?)

Left, Sunday, 9 May 2021 17:52 (one year ago) link

What happened to the Sensible Party or whatever the labour exiles were calling themselves,

Clara Lemlich stan account (silby), Sunday, 9 May 2021 17:58 (one year ago) link

They lost all their seats and then went off to cushy jobs and non-executive directorships.

One shad cab member tells me they'd quite like to know whether it's worth them turning up for work tomorrow. Nearly 7pm Sunday night and unaware if they're invited to tomorrow's meeting.

— Kate Proctor (@Kate_M_Proctor) May 9, 2021

Scamp Granada (gyac), Sunday, 9 May 2021 18:01 (one year ago) link

I'm fond of Sixfields.

the pinefox, Saturday, 21 May 2022 09:18 (four days ago) link

Fairly random question - is the higher education system in the UK set to survive the pandemic and brexit? Will Oxford and Cambridge and all the preparatory schools always be determinants of your future?

youn, Saturday, 21 May 2022 09:28 (four days ago) link

as long as the existing class/economic/social nexus stands than yeah

what doesn't kill me makes me Hongroe (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 21 May 2022 09:29 (four days ago) link

not just surviving but thriving

Portrait Of A Dissolvi Ng Drea M (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 21 May 2022 09:37 (four days ago) link

Is there a chance that Cambridge could surpass Oxford, if anyone cares, on account of its strengths in the sciences?

Will rhetoric always be so important in making an impression?

My apologies for any false premises in the questions above.

youn, Saturday, 21 May 2022 09:39 (four days ago) link

Is meritocracy a set up?

youn, Saturday, 21 May 2022 09:42 (four days ago) link

a veneer on top of the set up maybe

i'm not in the place this morning to deeply pull at this but i guess you need to distinguish between the ruling forces within the UK, the economic base and its rulers on an intersecting global level, where the money that bolsters the power comes from, how they interact, how the media and adjacent social forces serve this and how they relate to it

on a very fundamental level the ruling class in the UK isn't different now than it was in 1800 except in trivial presentational ways

what doesn't kill me makes me Hongroe (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 21 May 2022 10:01 (four days ago) link

I don't think most people in the UK think in terms of Oxford vs Cambridge, as separate and interestingly different and competing entities, except people who have been to Oxford or Cambridge.

To the rest of us they're two halves of the same thing, though admittedly with some entertaining local differences eg: F.R. Leavis and the tradition of English studies at Cambridge.

the pinefox, Saturday, 21 May 2022 10:21 (four days ago) link

tempting to say "there never was a meritocracy" but when I think about my mother and her four siblings, they certainly managed to move from working class to middle class + between the 50s and the 80s. would say that such a journey is not really possible now.

public schools + oxbridge certainly fit into our government's unspoken vision of the future, this is where the richest people in their world send their kids to be educated, maintaining the income and the soft power this generates is key to transforming this county to the Singapore of the west.

Portrait Of A Dissolvi Ng Drea M (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 21 May 2022 10:24 (four days ago) link

UK HE can survive the pandemic and Brexit, though it may be damaged by both. What it can't survive intact is the malign policies and actions of the corrupt UK government. These are quite separable from, and considerably prior to, those other crises, and are also ongoing now.

the pinefox, Saturday, 21 May 2022 10:25 (four days ago) link

my fave Cambridge alumni were lads like Maclean and Burgess, who by most accounts were pretty fucked up and dislikeable people. But at least they hated the system that gave them an easy life enough to actively work against it.

calzino, Saturday, 21 May 2022 10:44 (four days ago) link

I'm right here!

imago, Saturday, 21 May 2022 10:45 (four days ago) link

xp the rumour is that the Cambridge spy ring is the reason London-Cambridge transport links have been worse than London-Oxford. More plausibly this is why we've had eight Oxford-educated PMs since then, and exactly zero from Cambridge.

Portrait Of A Dissolvi Ng Drea M (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 21 May 2022 10:53 (four days ago) link

I think Oxford was always the politics place, Cambridge was more dead parrots and silly walks.

Doodles Diamond (Tom D.), Saturday, 21 May 2022 12:35 (four days ago) link

Baldwin is the last Cambridge-educated PM, going back more than a century you find that plenty (Bonar Law, Lloyd George) did not go to university at all, otherwise there's a fairly even split.

Portrait Of A Dissolvi Ng Drea M (Camaraderie at Arms Length), Saturday, 21 May 2022 13:04 (four days ago) link

noodle v says:

on a very fundamental level the ruling class in the UK isn't different now than it was in 1800 except in trivial presentational ways

unless you simply mean it's still the few vs the many as it always was i'm not sure that i agree with this? in 1800 the ruling class in the UK was organised round the ownership of land, rather than industry or commerce or capital as it is today -- and companies and corporations as we understand them today didn't exist (or they kind of did in proto-form but the individuals owning them were entirely liable, so the org had not been severed from the wealth of its founder or owner or whatever blah blah).

the land-owning aristocracy does still exist (as major london-centred landlords the grosvenors and the cadogans still get into the top 15 uk billionaires) but as a class it is absolutely no longer the mover and shaker it was throughout the the 19th century. meanwhile what gives the newspaper barons their modern power is not that they are barons but that they run newspapers (and now other media).

a secondary point is that the UK just isn't very important any more: its ruling forces today are very much more outside and multinational forces than they were in 1800 -- the murdochs (from a relatively lowly background if you start at 1800) have far more oligarchical heft as a family than the duke of westminster does, and for all the fuss round the windsors today elizabeth ii has much less political power than george iii had: they function as spectacle and lightning rod and have little agency except defensively)

mark s, Saturday, 21 May 2022 13:09 (four days ago) link

that's all fair and I picked 1800 to stretch my rhetorical point - it probably isn't far enough into the industrial revolution, tho i think you can argue that it was starting to be felt in the landscape of rulership by then, and i'd certainly argue that by 1850 it was dominant if not total. Murdoch and other press barons are new and different but idk if they're in the ruling class of the UK so much as powerful outside forces whose patronage is sometimes needed and who sometimes themselves seek patronage? royal family's relationship to politics looks different but mostly nominally so i'd say, and tho Elizabeth doesn't form parliaments in the way George III did this is as much about the face that the monarchy has chosen to wear to survive as it is about the mechanics of power imo

i am stretching my despair to prove a point but i'll stick by the feeling that the opening up of suffrage through the long 19th century hasn't made much more than hypothetical difference to the rulership of the UK. but that stretch maybe looks thin around the world wars and the post WWII settlement

anyway, i am exaggerating but not that much imo

what doesn't kill me makes me Hongroe (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 21 May 2022 13:38 (four days ago) link

agree that the UK isn't that important any more but always quote what Vaneigem said about Wile E Coyote not realising he's run off the end of the cliff yet

what doesn't kill me makes me Hongroe (Noodle Vague), Saturday, 21 May 2022 13:40 (four days ago) link

Is there a chance that Cambridge could surpass Oxford, if anyone cares, on account of its strengths in the sciences?


I went to one of them for undergrad and phd and have worked as an academic in three countries since and i couldn’t tell you which one surpassed the other. Totally spurious distinction.

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Sunday, 22 May 2022 00:55 (three days ago) link

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FTV4fmTXwAAkPGG?format=jpg&name=medium

Ian Austin says the current LOTO is way too soft on those totally evil and unpatriotic train union Trots!

calzino, Sunday, 22 May 2022 07:50 (three days ago) link

former member of the Face Down the Unions Party

what doesn't kill me makes me Hongroe (Noodle Vague), Sunday, 22 May 2022 08:38 (three days ago) link

Kieth would be more than happy to condemn any union that takes strike action during jubilee events. He's just going through a bit of a quiet period whilst the guy who wrote his conference speech is talking up a rival for his job. Couldn't happen to a nicer person.

calzino, Sunday, 22 May 2022 08:57 (three days ago) link

What the fuck

Tweet on Tory local election candidate’s account says teenage girls smell ‘buttery and creamy’ https://t.co/DBt5o2LjS2

— The Guardian (@guardian) May 22, 2022

gyac, Sunday, 22 May 2022 18:42 (three days ago) link

well that's another good thing about the continuing success of The Preston Model, it's keeping out another repulsive paedophile from Parliament

calzino, Sunday, 22 May 2022 18:59 (three days ago) link

well not from Parliament, I should have said it's blocking another paedo-councillor!

calzino, Sunday, 22 May 2022 19:01 (three days ago) link

there is this councillor who lives down the road from me. He's a likable bullshit merchant but probably never going to anything good, and he's running for Kirklees Mayor now. He won't be able stand next to Kieth for photos. I'm about 6 feet tall or just short of it and he looked like a giant to me!

calzino, Sunday, 22 May 2022 19:06 (three days ago) link

https://www.dewsburyreporter.co.uk/webimg/QVNIMTI1NzY0MzY5.jpg?width=2048&enable=upscale

oh he's becoming Kirklees Mayor. This is the guy who wanted me to vote on some local bollox about some newbuild homes project when I was a Labour member. When I told him I didn't have time and only joined to support the Corbyn project he tried to win me over by saying Gordon Brown and Ken Livingstone were his political heroes! I felt a bit bad the next day for knocking him back when there was a serious arson attack at his home.

calzino, Sunday, 22 May 2022 19:17 (three days ago) link

my fave local councillor is Nosheen Dad. I once saw her pick up a decaying dead rat and put it in a litter bin. That was very brave and she didn't do a photo of herself pointing at the dead rat.

calzino, Sunday, 22 May 2022 19:26 (three days ago) link

is the kirklees mayor taller than daniel kawczynski, is what i want to know

if he is i support him too

mark s, Sunday, 22 May 2022 19:32 (three days ago) link

oh no I don't think he's that tall, he's probably about 6"3 really, but I think his big head/big shoulder pad combo makes look much taller or something like that. But while Kieth is leader I offer critical support to all tall people!

calzino, Sunday, 22 May 2022 19:43 (three days ago) link

If I didn't want to be called a 'murderer' or 'Tory scum' I simply wouldn't be a Tory MP voting for cuts that killed tens of thousands of people https://t.co/Nw54oPdVKc pic.twitter.com/RscrqxybKv

— j (@jrc1921) May 23, 2022

xyzzzz__, Monday, 23 May 2022 13:50 (two days ago) link

when an MP get's murdered, an extremely rare lolccurrence - it's time for some sober reflection on how the toxic discourse in UK politics led to this tragic event. 140 000 + disabled people dying from the cross-party PIP project - that's just numbers you are making up m8 and this crude and inflammatory discourse will not do.

calzino, Monday, 23 May 2022 15:31 (two days ago) link

This piece by Andrew Fisher is takes to task Eagleton's chapter on Brexit in his Starmer book:

https://labourhub.org.uk/2022/05/24/dont-play-the-blame-game/

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 24 May 2022 12:23 (yesterday) link

AF otm. That aspect of Eagleton's book is indeed v bad and annoying; think Olly has absorbed the Lexity dogmas of his NLR forebears all too well.

Piedie Gimbel, Tuesday, 24 May 2022 13:32 (yesterday) link

The Starmer Project by Oliver Eagleton has, it seems, a side project to sow division in the left, attacking left stalwarts such as John McDonnell, Diane Abbott and Rebecca Long Bailey, while infantilising Jeremy Corbyn.

this is bollox imo and though perhaps some of his refutations of Eagleton's account might be right, does he think these people are above criticism? Because I believe Eagleton does get a lot of things correct about them. But perhaps he has got a point about infantilising Corbyn in parts of the book. Now we can see what a sharp operator Starmer it is hard to believe that he was conducting some long game plot as brexit minister, the way events folded out did work out fortuitously for his career. But he's too much of a muddled, indecisive kind of player for it to have been a cunning plan.

calzino, Tuesday, 24 May 2022 13:44 (yesterday) link

McD meeting with Campbell and inviting him back to the party and getting cosy with other Blairite debris, whatever was on his mind at the time? lol.

calzino, Tuesday, 24 May 2022 13:51 (yesterday) link

always delighted to read ill of an eagleton *whistling innocently*

mark s, Tuesday, 24 May 2022 14:38 (yesterday) link

I don't think Fisher is saying McDonnell is beyond criticism. It's just that his account of his role in changing Lab's policy on Brexit between 2017 and 2019 doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 24 May 2022 14:47 (yesterday) link

"a side project to sow division in the left"

it's this kind of nonsense I meant

calzino, Tuesday, 24 May 2022 14:48 (yesterday) link

Fair enough, though if Fisher is right I wonder what Eagleton is playing at?

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 24 May 2022 14:58 (yesterday) link

* Right about his criticisms of Eagleton's account.

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 24 May 2022 14:59 (yesterday) link

I think would say he's upholding the family tradition of being bad

calzino, Tuesday, 24 May 2022 15:15 (yesterday) link

*mark s*

calzino, Tuesday, 24 May 2022 15:16 (yesterday) link

thats right

mark s, Tuesday, 24 May 2022 15:20 (yesterday) link

https://t.co/Cey90aQfwg

— Oliver Eagleton (@EagletonOliver) May 25, 2022

https://labourhub.org.uk/2022/05/25/a-reply-to-andrew-fisher/

the pinefox, Wednesday, 25 May 2022 09:17 (one hour ago) link

did you hear about the feight at the chippy? I heard a Fisher got battered.

calzino, Wednesday, 25 May 2022 09:49 (forty-three minutes ago) link

Think this is pretty disingenuous bs from Eagleton jr tbh.

Piedie Gimbel, Wednesday, 25 May 2022 10:17 (fifteen minutes ago) link


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