Anarchy in Paris!

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Sorry, may have misunderstood you because the Australian system is different (and have never attended a religious school). This whole thinly disguised creationism in "Intelligent Design" is deeply concerning here though and there is a big debate about whether to introduce it. Most of the education and political community are stating it should not be included in science classes, but the fact they are even considering including it in the syllabus at all is just . . . ick.

salexander / sofia (salexander), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 09:59 (eighteen years ago) link

in england what's we're facing is 'faith schools', which will have state funding, and will (natch) cater for different religions, and it's widely thought that even if these schools will meet the curriculum's bare minimum of post-darwin science, the general tenor of them will be bad (it's bad anyway that different ethnic groups will be segregated). tony blair has said that creationism is 'just another theory', as valid as any scientific hypothesis...

headscarves are minor, and to be honest i think the french whd have let it lie; but i admire their idealism there.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 10:10 (eighteen years ago) link

That does sound bad. Why should the state prop up religious education? Oh sure they'll teach "science" and probably bash it as well because the non-existence of God cannot be proven. The existence of fairies also cannot be disproved (well probably not), but that's no reason to believe in fairies. The problem with creationism is that it is being taught as scientifically valid which is just plain wrong.

Oh that's right, forgot you have a fondness for the French! (That's a joke BTW, not dissing). Anyway um back to anarchy in Paris.

salexander / sofia (salexander), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 10:18 (eighteen years ago) link

back to the anarchy:

France was slow to react to the spreading violence set off by the accidental deaths of two youths on Oct. 27, in part because the initial nights of unrest did not seem particularly unusual in a country where an average of more than 80 cars a day were set on fire this year even before the violence. -NYTimes

!

D.I.Y. U.N.K.L.E. (dave225.3), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 12:31 (eighteen years ago) link

fuck!

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 12:32 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, car-burning has been a hooligan pasttime for a long time now in France, particularly in the east (Mulhouse, Strasboug) and particularly on holidays (14 Juillet, New Year's Eve). But since it only happens in shitty sink estate type suburbs, no one's really paid much attention until now.

jz, Tuesday, 8 November 2005 12:40 (eighteen years ago) link

Bloody hell that can't be right can it?? A flaming car seems to have become rather a symbol there ... of what it seems uncertain. Probably just hostility directed towards "the system."

salexander / sofia (salexander), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 12:42 (eighteen years ago) link

Also, I don't think "secularism" can justify the banishing of head scarves - these aren't just religious but integral to certain people's identities.

They aren't even religious, Muslim women don't have to wear them

Oh No, It's Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 12:50 (eighteen years ago) link

Well that was kind of the point, as most people assume they are strictly religious symbols. THose who choose to wear them are expressing their own personal identification, whatever that might be. My point was that they should not be blanket-banned in schools so that Muslim women who did choose to wear them could continue to do so.

salexander / sofia (salexander), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 12:54 (eighteen years ago) link

security blankets should be banned in schools. fucking pathetic attachment, the parents should be ashamed.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 12:55 (eighteen years ago) link

I like headscarves, I think they're cute. They force you to concentrate on a woman's face, which is a pleasure.

Oh No, It's Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 12:57 (eighteen years ago) link

haha, says vice magazine's dadaismus.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 12:59 (eighteen years ago) link

I have no idea what that means, Henry

Oh No, It's Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 13:01 (eighteen years ago) link

i thought you were being edgy.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 13:06 (eighteen years ago) link

Me? I have no edges, I'm a blancmange.

Oh No, It's Dadaismus (Dada), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 13:08 (eighteen years ago) link

Well, I would say headscarves lie at precisely the blurry intersection between identity and belief (I'm against the French ban.) Many Muslims do believe they are religiously required.

horseshoe, Wednesday, 9 November 2005 00:14 (eighteen years ago) link

wow yeah seen all that p0rn with the musl1m chix0rz in th headscarves an that? phwooooaaarrrr

headscarfperv, Wednesday, 9 November 2005 00:24 (eighteen years ago) link

A friend who reports on domestic affairs for a certain left-wing French newspaper says this:

The government's answer is only repression: the power of the police and the army is glorified. It sounds like provocation. The words used by Villepin and Sarkozy remain the very bad time of History, it is really chocking. They do not understand at all what's happening. I do not know how the calm can come back in these conditions.

100 young people are already in jail: when they will come back in their neighborhood, they will be consider as heroes.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Wednesday, 9 November 2005 00:32 (eighteen years ago) link

I used to love Villepin.

petlover, Wednesday, 9 November 2005 18:19 (eighteen years ago) link

I liked what Juan Cole has to say about all of this; about how many of the problems with these edge cities have to do with France's particular history, and what in particular is wrong with the bullshit that many American rightwing fuckheads have been spewing...

kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 10 November 2005 01:10 (eighteen years ago) link

Juan Cole is an idiot with an agenda. And he's wrong about France. As he is wrong about Iraq. Informed opposition and critique is vital. You won't get it from Juan Cole. He's a dolt.

BelieveWhatYouWant, Thursday, 10 November 2005 04:31 (eighteen years ago) link

No, you're a dolt!

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 10 November 2005 04:57 (eighteen years ago) link

wish you'd not logged out, cos i'd like to hear what you think a non-doltish informed opposition and critique would look like. i guess you could give that answer still logged out but whatev.

one of cole's convincing points is his demolition of steyn's reflexive posture of laying this at radical islam's feet, by saying (effectively) that the "racaille" are as muslim as the '91 LA rioters were christian. we have not heard (afaik, despite spotty media coverage) "allahu akbar" when another citroen gets torched.

however, one of the things that a few rightwingers have been saying that is convincing is that combo of france's left-statism and right-nativism have created this mess: ie huge amounts of gdp are tied up in servicing the (native) unemployed and retired and the agrarian countryside (+ that divine short work week, etc) while immigrants (sometimes 3 gen.s ago!) are still bottled up in these projects with no entry points to the regular economy. many commentators left & right have noted the racist geography of paris's built environment.

...which further discredits the islamism blame game, considering how "integrated" london's 7/7 bombers were. cole's argt that the rioters are part of a ghetto-creole no-longer-not-but-not-yet-maybe-never-will-be-French culture very impt i think.

geoff (gcannon), Thursday, 10 November 2005 05:02 (eighteen years ago) link

juan cole's post is great.

Theorry Henry (Enrique), Thursday, 10 November 2005 10:28 (eighteen years ago) link

Cole's rebuttal of Steyn makes a lot of sense, but I thinks he's off the mark wrt the assimilability of France's Arab community. He says that in an earlier period Polish and Italian immigrants were quickly assimilated, which is correct (albeit with plenty of anti-immigrant riots and even a massacre of Italian immigrants in the south of France). They were well assimilated by the second generation, and indistinguishable from other French people by the third. But that simply hasn't happened with the Arab population, and it's naive to expect that it magically will. Third generation Arabs are in the majority not assimilated. The reasons for this are complex. One is the way that they were ghettoised in the 1960s, forced into faraway banlieues, basically tower blocks in fields with limited facilities and public transport, and a crumbling job market for the undereducated from the eighties on. This complete separation didn't happen with the previous wave of immigrants. And obviously they are victims of racism in the way that European immigrants aren't so much. But there are cultural reasons as well as to why North Africans don't always assimilate well in France, to do with the way Arab families are constituted, the way Arab women are treated, to do with an exclusionary sense of identity, there are mentalities that are more removed from the Gallic mentality than that of an Italian or Pole. Religion is just one among many of those exclusionary differences thrown into the mix. In short, the argument that France has absorbed immigrant waves before therefore it will again doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, empirically or rationally. There are plenty of examples of countries with ethnic minorities that never really get absorbed into the mainstream and keep a strong identity. The U.S. melting pot model doesn't work everywhere.

jz, Thursday, 10 November 2005 11:10 (eighteen years ago) link

Juan Cole OTM on this.

Yes, it's hard for the melting pot to work when the population in question is often just plain physically isolated by geography and architecture with little/no contact with mainstream society. But the US melting pot model doesn't demand that everyone assimilate a 100% their identity into being American, either.

dar1a g (daria g), Thursday, 10 November 2005 16:17 (eighteen years ago) link

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB113148883432791516.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

"Nihilistic vortex of a violence that's meaningless, pointless, and that grows drunk on the spectacle of itself from city to city, reflected by televisions that are themselves obsessed."

giboyeux (skowly), Thursday, 10 November 2005 16:35 (eighteen years ago) link

Holy shit. Please tell me that was some sorta actual weather report.

kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Thursday, 10 November 2005 17:18 (eighteen years ago) link

Raining cars would be really dangerous!

giboyeux (skowly), Thursday, 10 November 2005 17:19 (eighteen years ago) link

i thought it was raining penises over alsace-lorraine, but then i looked closer and saw that they were overturned cars.. and not cocks.

phil-two (phil-two), Thursday, 10 November 2005 17:36 (eighteen years ago) link

just to be sure...that picture is NOT fake?

Lovelace (Lovelace), Thursday, 10 November 2005 19:44 (eighteen years ago) link

talking about the "weather forecast" pic

Lovelace (Lovelace), Thursday, 10 November 2005 19:47 (eighteen years ago) link

both pictures are 100% real pictures

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Thursday, 10 November 2005 20:46 (eighteen years ago) link

Just Sarko hangin' with his potes.

M. White (Miguelito), Thursday, 10 November 2005 20:49 (eighteen years ago) link

spiegel.de sez i'm wrong:

Suddenly "big brothers" -- devout bearded men from the mosques who wear long traditional robes -- are positioning themselves between the authorities and the rioters in Clichy-sous-Bois, calling for order in the name of Allah. As thousands of voices shout "Allahu Akbar" from the windows of high-rise apartment buildings, shivers run down the spines of television viewers in their seemingly safe living rooms.

geoff (gcannon), Friday, 11 November 2005 00:35 (eighteen years ago) link

Barbecued FROG LEGS sounds so tasty!

Bisexual Phag, Friday, 11 November 2005 11:40 (eighteen years ago) link

this is a good piece.

http://direland.typepad.com/direland/2005/11/why_is_france_b.html

Pete W (peterw), Friday, 11 November 2005 13:08 (eighteen years ago) link

Can we talk about David Brooks blaming all this on gangsta rap?

The result, Brooks says, is a battle for the hearts and minds of Muslim youth "between Osama bin Laden and Tupac Shakur."

kingfish orange creamsicle (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 11 November 2005 16:15 (eighteen years ago) link

Ohno, David Brooks. arrgh.

Jody Rosen name drops Disiz La Peste! J'KIFFE
(Urgent & key "J'pète les plombs," in the first verse of which he tries to buy breakfast at MacDo and is told it's too late because it's almost noon.. and then goes POSTAL.. very funny.)

J'lui dis : " Ecoute mec, rien à foutre que nos quartiers soient en guerre. Attends, j'vais t'payer après t'iras niquer ta mère ! "

His first album is insane but it only came out on tape in Senegal and now I can't find one..

dar1a g (daria g), Friday, 11 November 2005 16:37 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't know, maybe you could make a Tupac ref when it comes to Stomy Bugsy, he's an actor now.. (this is a pretty decent little film, actually, kind of sweet).

dar1a g (daria g), Friday, 11 November 2005 16:41 (eighteen years ago) link

Anyway, Brooks doesn't know what he's talking about: French rap lyrics today are like the American gangsta lyrics of about five or 10 years ago, when it was more common to fantasize about cop killings and gang rape. This makes me so angry. He just plain doesn't know, and doesn't care to know, and is fine with making stupid, uninformed overgeneralizations and peddling them to his audience. What a lazy SOB. He started to think about the existence of French hip hop what, perhaps four days ago at most? That obviously gives one plenty of time to learn the language, the culture, the history, and the slang, and become sufficiently well informed to be qualified to write about it in the New York Times.

I should've stayed in school & done my dissertation on the banlieues and hip hop culture.. but that would involve writing a dissertation.

dar1a g (daria g), Friday, 11 November 2005 16:52 (eighteen years ago) link

I have a question. Why are Chirac and his Conservative Party called conservatives? They are nothing like the conservatives in the UK, Sweden or the US(the three countries whos politics I'm most familiar with). They seem more left and socialist than conservative. This boggles my mind. I mean, isnt Chirac even more to the left than John Kerry?

Lovelace (Lovelace), Friday, 11 November 2005 18:12 (eighteen years ago) link

Brooks' entire column over at ILM:

David Brooks - GANGSTA!

kingfish cold slither (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 11 November 2005 18:17 (eighteen years ago) link

Why are Chirac and his Conservative Party called conservatives? They are nothing like the conservatives in the UK, Sweden or the US(the three countries whos politics I'm most familiar with). They seem more left and socialist than conservative. This boggles my mind. I mean, isnt Chirac even more to the left than John Kerry?

Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr, because they are Conservatives. John Kerry is a Conservative by the standards of most countries in (Western) Europe. Chirac a Socialist?!??! Gaullism has a Statist element to it but it's very far from being Socialist!

Oh No, It's Dadaismus (and His Endless Stupid Jokes) (Dada), Friday, 11 November 2005 19:35 (eighteen years ago) link

Jacques Chirac:

"He has stood for lower tax rates, the removal of price controls, strong punishment for crime and terrorism; and business privatization."

Tho, admittedly, being French, it's not quite that straightforward:

"He has also argued for more socially responsible economic policies, and was elected in 1995 after campaigning on a platform of healing the "social rift" (fracture sociale). His economic policies have at various times included both laissez-faire and dirigiste elements."

Oh No, It's Dadaismus (and His Endless Stupid Jokes) (Dada), Friday, 11 November 2005 19:40 (eighteen years ago) link

In fact, what he is is an old-fashioned (pre-Thatcher) British Tory!

Oh No, It's Dadaismus (and His Endless Stupid Jokes) (Dada), Friday, 11 November 2005 19:41 (eighteen years ago) link

Okay, so I knew EVEN less than I already thought.

Lovelace (Lovelace), Friday, 11 November 2005 20:01 (eighteen years ago) link


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