On Sinema at the Sinema: October 2021 US Politics thread

Hopefully I’m not a jerk; I created a thread for those who want to talk about the Havana syndrome

The Havana Syndrome

"I don't really understand the jump to "this is obviously fake," regardless of how one feels about the CIA. "

me either, it reminds me of people who refused to believe fybromyalgia or lyme disease were real.

I don't know about this. Are lyme disease or fybromyalgia sufferers getting sanctions passed against ???? foreign enemies?

me either, it reminds me of people who refused to believe fybromyalgia or lyme disease were real. No doubt there are probably people jumping on this 'diagnosis' who are full of shit or suffer from munchausen or something, but I'm not in the habit of utterly dismissing illness in people when I don't know them.

careful, I got roasted for making this same point yesterday...

I got roasted for making this same point

The very existence of 24 hour reports about remote events gives everyone the right to form summary judgments upon people they have never met, events they did not witness or experience, and ideas they may not understand in full. Suggesting that these judgments may be faulty or premature, due to faulty, imprecise or scanty information is an attack upon Our Freedom To Opine. #publicserviceannouncement

I missed the stories about Lyme disease being a Russian weapon, I guess.

American weapon otoh

The US House of Representatives has ordered the Pentagon’s inspector general to conduct a review of whether the defence department “experimented with ticks and other insects regarding use as biological weapons between 1950 and 1975.”1

The demand for a review, proposed by Chris Smith, a New Jersey Republican, passed easily among a raft of other late amendments to a House bill on defence spending. It must still be “reconciled” with the Senate’s version of the spending bill, but Smith said that he was confident of Senate support.

He told the House that his amendment had been “inspired by a number of books and articles suggesting that significant research had been done at US government facilities including Fort Detrick, Maryland, and Plum Island, New York, to turn ticks and other insects into bioweapons.”

Politicks

It’s pretty embarrassing that we spend multiples of every other country on intelligence and the military and don’t have a death ray of our own.

We are years behind on headache technology

I don't know that it's a foreign weapon, in fact I'd be more inclined to believe this is due to either 1) some issue in the embassy buildings themselves, the cause of which I dunno or 2) a side effect of some bullshit the CIA is actually trying to do to foreign parties; either way, completely dismissing illness complaints from people is nagl imo tbh wtf

The dispute isn’t ‘do they have headaches’ though, it’s the foreign weapon part. The State Dept. and CIA aren’t saying they need sanctions against the contractor who used high-VOC paint in the offices.

comparing CIA/State department operatives, who have *already* gotten a special piece of legislation passed to fully fund their care and investigate their syndrome, to sufferers of various hard to diagnose illnesses who are systemically ill-served and disbelieved is kind of ridiculous!

I get why the pattern recognition part of yr brain is conflating the two; people report symptoms and other people don’t believe them. Both I and people I love have dealt with that, it sucks! Also, I’m genuinely sympathetic to the concept of applying universal compassion to even the worst human beings. However, the power and privilege differential here is fucking enormous. When that compassion is weaponized to heap even more privilege and funding onto gov’t operatives who acquired these supposed illnesses in the course of exerting imperial power, to beat the drum for further militarization, and to morally condemn any questioning of the stories told by *professional, state-sanctioned liars,* it enters the realm of absurdity and is no longer useful or, indeed, moral!

but like table (I think?) said, if you don’t think willingly working for the CIA is an indelible stain on a person that fully disqualifies one from any benefit of the doubt, I don’t think we’re ever going to see eye to eye on this

if you don’t think willingly working for the CIA is an indelible stain on a person that fully disqualifies one from any benefit of the doubt, I don’t think we’re ever going to see eye to eye on this

Don't know who you are, but you're right that we won't agree.

The legislation is immaterial to my point, which is that nothing has been definitively proven one way or another. I don't think it's *obviously* the work of foreign intelligence for the same reason I don't think it's *obviously* an invention of the CIA.

The dispute isn’t ‘do they have headaches’ though, it’s the foreign weapon part. The State Dept. and CIA aren’t saying they need sanctions against the contractor who used high-VOC paint in the offices.

But these are in fact different disputes that are taking place. Saying that Havana Syndrome "isn't real" or is "made-up" (not the exact words of anyone here, I'll admit) is a reaction to claims that people have experienced distress, and implies that they aren't actually suffering. What to do about it is another matter altogether.

You’re eliding that the syndrome is being defined as, in the words of Susan Collin’s press release on the Havana Act, “symptoms ‘consistent with the effects of directed, pulsed, radiofrequency energy.’”

The “syndrome” is inseparable from the weapons claims. If CIA spooks had headaches because of black mold in the torture dungeon showers it wouldn’t be “Havana syndrome.”

If CIA spooks had headaches because of black mold in the torture dungeon showers it wouldn’t be “Havana syndrome.”

And yet the repeated inference made itt is that all CIA spooks are awful, evil liars, so why wouldn't it be entirely possible that they are leveraging very real symptoms of something more benign into a stupidly expensive piece of legislation that only got through and supported by the media because of some "scary evil Russians with ray guns" angle. Which is what I think is happening.

nicole otmfm

Psyching yourself so you OD at the sight of fentanyl doesn’t make Copioid Syndrome real but you still go into shock.

I mean, if the baseline insistence itt is going to always be that it's 100% fabricated, no matter what, there really isn't a point of discussion at all I guess.

the thing is-- this idea about microwave weapons being used against US diplomats and agents was floating around years ago. In fact the NSA studied it in 2012. I think someone in one of these agencies who starts to get sick, for whatever reason, is naturally going to suspect that as a cause

We are years behind on headache technology

The only way to stop a bad guy with headache technology is with a good guy with headache technology.

there really isn't a point of discussion at all I guess.

the legislation being immaterial doesn’t make any sense to me, tbh?

the reason it’s harmful that people have disbelieved my and others’ symptoms isn’t because it’s mean and hurts our feelings, it’s because it forms a systemic barrier to receiving needed care. that barrier in this case has already been legislated away! it doesn’t matter how much you or I believe them, they’ll receive the highest level of care without any charge regardless. this simply isn’t true of 99% of chronic illness sufferers in America.

ftr I have no idea what injuries these ppl did or did not suffer, I don’t think it’s *obviously* anything; I’m just a dumb jerk with no higher clearance than anyone else here. but I really take issue with random civilians staying very skeptical about CIA operatives’ stories being morally conflated with disbelieving everyone with chronic unexplained symptoms

The “syndrome” is inseparable from the weapons claims. If CIA spooks had headaches because of black mold in the torture dungeon showers it wouldn’t be “Havana syndrome.”

And yet there is plenty of reporting on "Havana syndrome" that suggests a number of possible origins, both malicious and innocuous, and doesn't come to any definitive conclusion. Obviously, the weapons claims make it a subject of greater intrigue, but is it not possible to talk about it as a phenomenon without either uncritically accepting those claims or dismissing it altogether?

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.youtube.com%2Fvi%2FUAbAIpZG7II%2F0.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

Sorry, nicole, I read your post twice and don't quite understand it. I'm sorry if you are not receiving medical care for chronic illness. I think everyone should receive medical care.

--ADAM CURTIS VOICEOVER--

Meanwhile, a group of people were immersed in a discussion on U.S. politics. But they weren't talking about politics, they were talking about something called Havana Syndrome

--Brian Eno music--

And yet there is plenty of reporting on "Havana syndrome" that suggests a number of possible origins, both malicious and innocuous, and doesn't come to any definitive conclusion. Obviously, the weapons claims make it a subject of greater intrigue, but is it not possible to talk about it as a phenomenon without either uncritically accepting those claims or dismissing it altogether?

Not really, no. The "Havana syndrome" is pretty clearly defined (see above) by those promoting it and it's about attacks from foreign enemies. The very name refers to spurious claims of weapons attacks on people working in Cuba. Reporting on it "suggesting a number of possible origins" inherently questions the concept of "Havana syndrome" and the money we're throwing at the CIA for it and sanctions against unnamed enemies that are being drawn up in response.

'America's official torturers have headaches, don't know why' isn't a syndrome and isn't the question at hand.

I'm reacting more to Twitter reactions which have been "these people aren't sick, they have hangovers".

After 30 years of campaigning to give government the power to negotiate prescription drug prices, Democrats appear ready to fumble the ball at the goal line. Failure would be akin to the GOP's flubbing repeal of Obamacare after so many promises. https://t.co/F0Ev1GRImc

— Jonathan Weisman (@jonathanweisman) October 21, 2021

We should use Havana Syndrome to get drug cost reform passed, make it a patriotic issue to lower CIA co-pays on migraine drugs.

this is also sinema and manchin's fault. dunno what to do about that. win more seats elsewhere.

I'm reacting more to Twitter reactions which have been "these people aren't sick, they have hangovers".

fwiw, this is exactly what triggered my post yesterday, which I deeply regred.

regret, jesus.

I guess on an individual case-by-case basis it’s fair to say the spectrum of “good”-to-“evil” CIA employees probably tracks with an industry like Big Law, the financial sector, or Political Consulting, but I personally just take issue with the notion that sure, the CIA was admittedly evil in the *past*, but then the Church Committee happened, they looked inward and did some soul-searching, and hey turns out everything’s been on the up and up since Carter.

And I want to be clear that I’m *not* attributing that line of thinking to jic or anyone else here. But the way (especially) cable news, the mainstream media in general, the Dem Party, and garden variety moderate liberals just lap up the bullshit—only to find out years down the road whoops turns out they’re doing the same dirtball bs as always, generally to no virtuous or really even worthwhile ends, is just… fatiguing.

yeah I have Havana Syndrome. Im Havana nother beer lol

— Patrick Halloween (@lunch_enjoyer) August 25, 2021

But what I said in my post upthread was that I do *kind of* think the CIA is being misleading and malicious here, I don't think I've ever defended them as exemplars of honesty and straightforwardness. I think they are parlaying something as benign as sick-building syndrome into getting a shit ton of money out of legislation by conjuring up some evil Russian headache gun storyline because it sure sounds sexier and more attention grabbing than, "hey we need more money to fix our decades old embassy buildings with shitty ventilation and mold problems".

Despite being repeatedly told the opposite over the last 24 hours, I'm comfortable believing that, yes, the CIA has a history of being nefarious and duplicitous (to put it mildly), but that I also believe that some people are indeed suffering legitimate symptoms that are worthy of being considered. What I didn't realize is how this is the profoundly wrong forum for that line of discussion.

xpost to self: jic = jvc, and maybe that post was better suited for the other thread

Not really, no. The "Havana syndrome" is pretty clearly defined (see above) by those promoting it and it's about attacks from foreign enemies. The very name refers to spurious claims of weapons attacks on people working in Cuba. Reporting on it "suggesting a number of possible origins" inherently questions the concept of "Havana syndrome" and the money we're throwing at the CIA for it and sanctions against unnamed enemies that are being drawn up in response.

'America's official torturers have headaches, don't know why' isn't a syndrome and isn't the question at hand.

― papal hotwife (milo z), Thursday, October 21, 2021 2:24 PM (seventeen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Well, I guess this is a matter of semantics, then. I've been using "Havana Syndrome" to describe the mysterious phenomenon of multiple U.S. diplomats suffering inexplicable illnesses, which was first identified in Havana. Is there a better name for that?

the Spook flu

Maybe "the phenomenon that has been labeled 'Havana Syndrome' by some bad people who are full of shit"?

Ask Alex Jones?

but that I also believe that some people are indeed suffering legitimate symptoms that are worthy of being considered

Don't know who you are, but you're right that we won't agree.

[...]

― jaymc, Thursday, October 21, 2021 11:30 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

uh oh

Tbf, there are lots of people on ILX these days that I don't know, or have no real sense of. (The original .xls joke was like 15 years ago.) Just didn't recognize the screenname.

lol I don’t feel like deadnaming myself (and thus making my 17-year-old drunk posts easily searchable) but I’ve been reading ilx for 20 years and posted some, but I just don’t have poster brain (too many self-edits and superfluous parentheticals to keep it up) so you prob don’t remember me

hope that’s enough for the .xls

xp

It's enough to assure me that you're not the capital-N Nicole who used to post here, whom I briefly thought you might be.

Was wondering about that too.

the xls is twitching!

It’s been a wild few days for this thread.