On Sinema at the Sinema: October 2021 US Politics thread

jvc, while I understand your frustration in this conversation, I just don't really understand why you're so concerned about these people who are, by dint of their job alone, objectively *bad* people.

Because the implication in this argument is that, as long as you view some subset of other as "objectively bad people", it's a-ok to completely throw basic decency and empathy out the window. And you don't have to spend more than five minutes glancing at American history to see why it's a really fucking awful idea to let people dictate the medical treatment of others by how "worthy" any particular subset might be.

Look I think we can all agree that the CIA is bad, no one itt needs to prove their leftist credentials to prove that point. But it grosses me out when people throw empathy out the window because it might accidentally get spent on someone they don't like. It's odious and deserves to be noted as such.

And let me reiterate, this is not coming from a place of "oh think of the feelings of the poor CIA agents". It's coming from a place of, "holy shit, this exact line of thinking has been twisted in some pretty horrifying ways through our country's history so maybe be careful".

But I know that I'm going to get blasted for finding this a hill worth fighting on, so be it.

Thanks jaymc, at least I know I'm not completely off base here.

xpost Oh yeah, and this is in Montana:
Starting last winter, when the COVID-19 vaccines were rolled out, Lawyer found himself in the crosshairs of what he calls a small, yet vocal group of extremists. He was surprised, because by then Montana's far right Governor Greg Gianforte had already overturned the state's mask mandate and the state's Republican controlled legislature had passed the only law in the nation banning private businesses from requiring their employees to get vaccinated.

"Although there was no mask mandate, there were no vaccine mandates, there were no health restrictions in our county, people still felt that their rights were being trampled on," Lawyer says.

Are they really all CIA.

Back to Manchin and the environment too, The Daily had a good discussion of RIP bill---"there's no version of i he will accept"---that is, not one that provides incentive, incl payments, to speed up transition from coal etc, because climate disruption way ahead of sched:

...o he has a philosophical objection and a parochial, in my backyard objection, which is: This is going to destroy an industry and its jobs in my home state for which I am a United States senator.

Coral Davenport
Absolutely. I mean, and that’s a legitimate objection as well. But there’s something else, which is: Senator Manchin does also make a lot of money off the coal industry himself. Back before he was Senator Manchin, when he was Joe Manchin of Farmington, West Virginia, he founded a coal brokerage company, which he turned over to his son when he first ran for state office in West Virginia. So it is not his company anymore, but he’s still a stockholder in that.

And last year alone, he made almost $500,000 in dividends from this coal brokerage. So it’s absolutely true that he has a personal financial investment in which he profits quite handsomely in this same industry that would be shut down by this policy.
...Coral Davenport
But to be very clear, and to be fair to Senator Manchin, he absolutely is in compliance with senate ethics requirements. He’s very open about this. He has filed all of his financial disclosures. Nothing is concealed. He himself does not own this company. He’s been subject to a lot of criticism for essentially making personal profit on the coal industry, but senators are allowed to have these investments, and he complies with the letter of the law of the ethics requirements.

Michael Barbaro
So what has been the reaction to Joe Manchin’s decision to essentially kill off this program?

Coral Davenport
Well, as you can imagine, there are progressive Democrats, Democrats who have built their whole political careers around climate change, who are furious. They’re furious, of course, not only at Manchin, but they’re furious at the idea that this piece could be taken out of the bill at all. And almost immediately when this happened last week, I talked to the staff of Senator Tina Smith of Minnesota, who has been central in writing this program, who said, essentially, if they don’t have a strong climate program, if they don’t have a program that cuts carbon emissions, they should not count on our vote.
transcript:
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/20/podcasts/the-daily/joe-biden-climate-plan-joe-manchin.html?showTranscript=1

pod: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/20/podcasts/the-daily/joe-biden-climate-plan-joe-manchin.html

And let me reiterate, this is not coming from a place of "oh think of the feelings of the poor CIA agents". It's coming from a place of, "holy shit, this exact line of thinking has been twisted in some pretty horrifying ways through our country's history so maybe be careful".

Still don’t see how this differs from ODing cops and Vax Victims, though? Because cops are in a position of power and the vax victims are ridiculous? But how is that different from “CIA case officer targeted by headache gun”?

this really is one of the least interesting arguments you guys have had and that’s saying something

who is winning? i haven't really checked into the particulars, but i know a guy in dc. he has "high clearance". apparently he's just one of over 1.5 million people around there who do

Still don’t see how this differs from ODing cops and Vax Victims, though? Because cops are in a position of power and the vax victims are ridiculous? But how is that different from “CIA case officer targeted by headache gun”?

Not sure I understand the question here? I understood the reference upthread to cops touching fentanyl to be a nod to those faked videos of cops pretending to OD when they brushed their fingers against it. I don't think any cop faking an OD is deserving of sympathy at all. If you are asking if I have sympathy for cop ODing from recreational drug use? Yeah, I do have sympathy. I can wish that every cop in America immediately quits policing to do something non-destructive with their lives, but also realize that they likely have family, friends and loved ones who are going to be impacted should they die. As for "Vax Victims", I'm not sure what that term, exactly. But assuming you mean anti-vaxxers dying from their own stubborn refusal and belief in stupid ideas, well, it depends, I guess. If we are talking Tucker Carlson or someone who has gone out of their way to spread disinformation, nah, probably not going to have a lot of sympathy (though he's a bad example because I'm certain he has been vaxxed). But if it's someone's random grandma who has been isolated and ended up in an echo chamber that reinforces harmful beliefs in her head, I am going to have sympathy for her death, absolutely. It's a shitty system that killed her. Though again, I'm not sure I understand your question, so this may be a different reading than you intended.

My point being that I think the more often we reduce things to "X group is bad, so all members of X group should suffer or die", the more we allow space for other people to do the same and I sure as hell know that other people are going to have a very different "group X" in mind.

And I realize we are talking about a "mystery" headache and sickness, not anything as severe as death, I was just picking up on the "ODing cops" and "Vax Victims" part of that post.

I'm going to bow out of this now because I realize when I'm fighting a losing battle.

My point being that I think the more often we reduce things to "X group is bad, so all members of X group should suffer or die", the more we allow space for other people to do the same and I sure as hell know that other people are going to have a very different "group X" in mind.

This is broadly true (and thus hard to disagree with), but

a) in this situation we who are making fun of so-called "Havana Syndrome" sufferers are not so much saying "those people over there are bad, and they should suffer and die" as "those people over there are full of shit, and it's funny that journalists' brains are so broken that they take this obvious bullshit seriously", and

b) your broader principle is so broad that it ultimately would prohibit you from making any kind of judgement about any group at all, ever, because Bad People might exercise the same right and then you'd be... bad by association, because you did it once, too? It's the paradox of tolerance, where you have to be "tolerant" even to people who are themselves intolerant, because to not do so would make you intolerant, too, which is bad, all over again. And just like that's horseshit (you're not obligated to be tolerant to Nazis), so is this. Making fun of CIA agents who claim the Russians aimed a migraine cannon at them is not the same as denying that black hospital patients really feel pain when they get surgery. It's just fucking not.

Some people can oppose someone's ideologies and politics while being sympathetic to their suffering. It's not being tolerant of their intolerance, it's just being empathic.

Some people can oppose someone's ideologies and politics while being sympathetic to their suffering. It's not being tolerant of their intolerance, it's just being empathic.

Sure, but these people are not suffering from a real thing, any more than if they claimed to have morgellons. There is no such thing as "Havana Syndrome," and even entertaining the idea that there might be makes you a rube and a mark.

If Bernie claimed that Manchin was hitting him with a magical death ray it would be equally absurd and dismissible.

We know the CIA heart attack gun isn't real because Biden would have used it on Breyer.

fwiw the fentanyl cops probably aren't really "faking it" either, they're experiencing panic attacks or some kind of conversion syndrome. and as a long time panic attack sufferer i sympathize with them i guess? kind of? but mostly they can eat shit, they brought it on themselves

CDC guidelines for fentanyl were terrible and there has been a massive amount of mythology around the drug, I don't know how much it comes from the police profession itself (probably a lot!) but for a while, with the limited info available, it was normal to be pretty scared of the whole thing. Medical first responders were equally scared.

I see the guidelines are still terrible.

Sure, but these people are not suffering from a real thing, any more than if they claimed to have morgellons. There is no such thing as "Havana Syndrome," and even entertaining the idea that there might be makes you a rube and a mark.

I haven't done a deep dive into Havana Syndrome, but I've read articles in credible publications (for instance, this New Yorker article from a few months ago) that basically take the stance of "huh, this is really weird, and there still doesn't seem to be a good explanation for it." So that's basically where my head is at, and I don't really understand the jump to "this is obviously fake," regardless of how one feels about the CIA. (That said, I also don't think that individuals who work for the CIA are inherently and objectively bad or untrustworthy or undeserving of sympathy.)

Story on NBC news week or so ago had a couple State Dept. people that had some brain MRIs that showed some abnormalities and the doctors clueless on how they got that way. Who knows...call Fox Mulder I guess.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news/video/early-victims-of-havana-syndrome-speak-out-about-ongoing-health-struggles-123482693615

I keep thinking about that scene in that BBC Hawkwind documentary of Lemmy talking about DikMik using the pulse generator in the shows.

"In case of sonic attack on your district, follow these rules..."

Five veterans tapped to advise Senator Kyrsten Sinema, an Arizona Democrat, resigned from their posts on Thursday, publicly accusing her of “hanging your constituents out to dry” in the latest sign of growing hostility toward a centrist who has emerged as a key holdout on President Biden’s agenda.

“You have become one of the principal obstacles to progress, answering to big donors rather than your own people,” the veterans wrote in a letter that is to be featured in a new advertisement by Common Defense, a progressive veterans’ activist group that has targeted Ms. Sinema.

“We shouldn’t have to buy representation from you, and your failure to stand by your people and see their urgent needs is alarming,” they added.

Now we just need her entire team to quit

American democracy saved by a triathlon coach who isn’t having it anymore

"I don't really understand the jump to "this is obviously fake," regardless of how one feels about the CIA. "

me either, it reminds me of people who refused to believe fybromyalgia or lyme disease were real. No doubt there are probably people jumping on this 'diagnosis' who are full of shit or suffer from munchausen or something, but I'm not in the habit of utterly dismissing illness in people when I don't know them.

maybe they should call it Langley Syndrome. might be easier for pol to take seriously

ppl*

obv pols are taking it Extremely Seriously, much more so than crumbling infrastructure or extreme weather events every other month or $900 insulin

Hopefully I’m not a jerk; I created a thread for those who want to talk about the Havana syndrome

The Havana Syndrome

"I don't really understand the jump to "this is obviously fake," regardless of how one feels about the CIA. "

me either, it reminds me of people who refused to believe fybromyalgia or lyme disease were real.

I don't know about this. Are lyme disease or fybromyalgia sufferers getting sanctions passed against ???? foreign enemies?

me either, it reminds me of people who refused to believe fybromyalgia or lyme disease were real. No doubt there are probably people jumping on this 'diagnosis' who are full of shit or suffer from munchausen or something, but I'm not in the habit of utterly dismissing illness in people when I don't know them.

careful, I got roasted for making this same point yesterday...

I got roasted for making this same point

The very existence of 24 hour reports about remote events gives everyone the right to form summary judgments upon people they have never met, events they did not witness or experience, and ideas they may not understand in full. Suggesting that these judgments may be faulty or premature, due to faulty, imprecise or scanty information is an attack upon Our Freedom To Opine. #publicserviceannouncement

I missed the stories about Lyme disease being a Russian weapon, I guess.

American weapon otoh

The US House of Representatives has ordered the Pentagon’s inspector general to conduct a review of whether the defence department “experimented with ticks and other insects regarding use as biological weapons between 1950 and 1975.”1

The demand for a review, proposed by Chris Smith, a New Jersey Republican, passed easily among a raft of other late amendments to a House bill on defence spending. It must still be “reconciled” with the Senate’s version of the spending bill, but Smith said that he was confident of Senate support.

He told the House that his amendment had been “inspired by a number of books and articles suggesting that significant research had been done at US government facilities including Fort Detrick, Maryland, and Plum Island, New York, to turn ticks and other insects into bioweapons.”

Politicks

It’s pretty embarrassing that we spend multiples of every other country on intelligence and the military and don’t have a death ray of our own.

We are years behind on headache technology

I don't know that it's a foreign weapon, in fact I'd be more inclined to believe this is due to either 1) some issue in the embassy buildings themselves, the cause of which I dunno or 2) a side effect of some bullshit the CIA is actually trying to do to foreign parties; either way, completely dismissing illness complaints from people is nagl imo tbh wtf

The dispute isn’t ‘do they have headaches’ though, it’s the foreign weapon part. The State Dept. and CIA aren’t saying they need sanctions against the contractor who used high-VOC paint in the offices.

comparing CIA/State department operatives, who have *already* gotten a special piece of legislation passed to fully fund their care and investigate their syndrome, to sufferers of various hard to diagnose illnesses who are systemically ill-served and disbelieved is kind of ridiculous!

I get why the pattern recognition part of yr brain is conflating the two; people report symptoms and other people don’t believe them. Both I and people I love have dealt with that, it sucks! Also, I’m genuinely sympathetic to the concept of applying universal compassion to even the worst human beings. However, the power and privilege differential here is fucking enormous. When that compassion is weaponized to heap even more privilege and funding onto gov’t operatives who acquired these supposed illnesses in the course of exerting imperial power, to beat the drum for further militarization, and to morally condemn any questioning of the stories told by *professional, state-sanctioned liars,* it enters the realm of absurdity and is no longer useful or, indeed, moral!

but like table (I think?) said, if you don’t think willingly working for the CIA is an indelible stain on a person that fully disqualifies one from any benefit of the doubt, I don’t think we’re ever going to see eye to eye on this

if you don’t think willingly working for the CIA is an indelible stain on a person that fully disqualifies one from any benefit of the doubt, I don’t think we’re ever going to see eye to eye on this

Don't know who you are, but you're right that we won't agree.

The legislation is immaterial to my point, which is that nothing has been definitively proven one way or another. I don't think it's *obviously* the work of foreign intelligence for the same reason I don't think it's *obviously* an invention of the CIA.

The dispute isn’t ‘do they have headaches’ though, it’s the foreign weapon part. The State Dept. and CIA aren’t saying they need sanctions against the contractor who used high-VOC paint in the offices.

But these are in fact different disputes that are taking place. Saying that Havana Syndrome "isn't real" or is "made-up" (not the exact words of anyone here, I'll admit) is a reaction to claims that people have experienced distress, and implies that they aren't actually suffering. What to do about it is another matter altogether.

You’re eliding that the syndrome is being defined as, in the words of Susan Collin’s press release on the Havana Act, “symptoms ‘consistent with the effects of directed, pulsed, radiofrequency energy.’”

The “syndrome” is inseparable from the weapons claims. If CIA spooks had headaches because of black mold in the torture dungeon showers it wouldn’t be “Havana syndrome.”

If CIA spooks had headaches because of black mold in the torture dungeon showers it wouldn’t be “Havana syndrome.”

And yet the repeated inference made itt is that all CIA spooks are awful, evil liars, so why wouldn't it be entirely possible that they are leveraging very real symptoms of something more benign into a stupidly expensive piece of legislation that only got through and supported by the media because of some "scary evil Russians with ray guns" angle. Which is what I think is happening.

nicole otmfm

Psyching yourself so you OD at the sight of fentanyl doesn’t make Copioid Syndrome real but you still go into shock.

I mean, if the baseline insistence itt is going to always be that it's 100% fabricated, no matter what, there really isn't a point of discussion at all I guess.

the thing is-- this idea about microwave weapons being used against US diplomats and agents was floating around years ago. In fact the NSA studied it in 2012. I think someone in one of these agencies who starts to get sick, for whatever reason, is naturally going to suspect that as a cause

We are years behind on headache technology

The only way to stop a bad guy with headache technology is with a good guy with headache technology.

there really isn't a point of discussion at all I guess.

the legislation being immaterial doesn’t make any sense to me, tbh?

the reason it’s harmful that people have disbelieved my and others’ symptoms isn’t because it’s mean and hurts our feelings, it’s because it forms a systemic barrier to receiving needed care. that barrier in this case has already been legislated away! it doesn’t matter how much you or I believe them, they’ll receive the highest level of care without any charge regardless. this simply isn’t true of 99% of chronic illness sufferers in America.

ftr I have no idea what injuries these ppl did or did not suffer, I don’t think it’s *obviously* anything; I’m just a dumb jerk with no higher clearance than anyone else here. but I really take issue with random civilians staying very skeptical about CIA operatives’ stories being morally conflated with disbelieving everyone with chronic unexplained symptoms

The “syndrome” is inseparable from the weapons claims. If CIA spooks had headaches because of black mold in the torture dungeon showers it wouldn’t be “Havana syndrome.”

And yet there is plenty of reporting on "Havana syndrome" that suggests a number of possible origins, both malicious and innocuous, and doesn't come to any definitive conclusion. Obviously, the weapons claims make it a subject of greater intrigue, but is it not possible to talk about it as a phenomenon without either uncritically accepting those claims or dismissing it altogether?

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.youtube.com%2Fvi%2FUAbAIpZG7II%2F0.jpg&f=1&nofb=1