the alt-right

doing exactly what's expected of him within the context of his toxic community

Not loving this tbh.

I can assure you, it's not complacency. Kids like that beat me up when I was younger. They harassed my girlfriend. They still cheer as people send me threats, or write about how I should go to a mental institution, or that I am a white knight psycho rapist, for writing about women in film. I know kids like that, and I know those kind of toxic communities, and I assure you once again, it's not complacency. I've thought about it a lot. I've had to. It's not a passtime for me, it's been forced into my life. And I assure you as well, that for 90% of people who went off on that kid, it was not complacency, it was a reaction to something they've never ever asked for, and never wanted in their lives. And it kinda pisses me off that you call it complacency, as if it's just an abstract thing for us.

I, too, have been on the receiving end of a sociopathic gang of teenagers not unlike those depicted in that video. I bumped into my would-be tormentors a few years after we graduated from high school and – lo and behold! – they'd cleaned up their act and started behaving like decent human beings, even without the benefit of mass online shaming. I wasn't exactly blameless throughout those years either, and I am glad that my (our) hormone-fuelled idiocy wasn't broadcast to the whole world, be it 'merely' as a symbol or a meme.

Good for you, but I can't use that for anything. As late as this summer I saw people on facebook asking if anyone knew where I lived, so that they could... discuss... something I'd written with me. Not everybody grows out of this, I'll figure out how to handle it on my own, thank you very much. And you might disagree, but don't you dare call it 'complacency.'

I at least grew up in a context where this kind of behaviour would have been deemed repugnant, and when kids crossed the (racist, sexist) line, they were taken to task for it. So if you're given the chance to know better and don't jump on it (sounds like this applies to those people you describe), tough luck, I've no qualms about others calling you out on your shit. But how are those kids in Park Hills, KY supposed to learn anything when burdened with such 'educators' as theirs? Who is primarily responsible for their aggressive conceitedness?

Seriously, though, I'm sorry you've had to go through that shit, Fred. Those guys can go fuck themselves.

Lot of posts so I may well have missed it upthread but isnt"

"Initially the wrong guy got identified and attacked online"

way more important than

"actually i saw it from a different angle and now i have a different viewpoint"

― anvil, Tuesday, January 22, 2019 7:15 AM (four hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I honestly don't get people who take the position that this other CovCath student being misidentified as the kid in the video and being attacked = a bad thing, but the actual kid in the video being correctly identified and attacked = a good thing? Given that the ire is more about how he looks and what he represents than anything he as an individual actually did, what difference does it make? Presumably if the wrongly identified kid had happened to have been at the march rather than at a family wedding then these same people would be calling for him to be doxxed along with the other kids, would think that he bears collective responsibility along with the rest of the students etc?

i have no idea , but a necessary consequence of doxxing and misidentifying is that it is not possible to get 'the right guy' when there is a rush to get "a guy"

I’d have clipped the wee nyaff’s lug. As far as what should happen, I would suspend the kids involved, and make them sit through some detention speeches about native Americans. I’d maybe fire the chaperones. The social media blowout? Yeah, it’s kind of strong, and maybe counter productive. But I understand each individuals reaction - but there is an emergent punishment which is harsher than most individuals support. Still, fuck these kids, and especially fuck their teachers.

Alt-right is bad. This kid is bad. His teachers are bad. Online hate mobs shaming people are bad. Twitter is bad. 2019 is bad.

I don't think anyone on here has supported doxxing anyone?

can't believe we're not discussing charlie kirk getting benched at cedars sinai

It depends on what people mean by doxxing. I’d support identifying him for his school to deal with, but not with the total unveiling on social media.

I guess I mainly mean, is this stuff likely to move the kid back towards humanity, or cement his position on the far right. Given that moving towards the centre would involve admitting fault (which people don’t like) it seems. Likely to harden his heart.

Of course, it may still be worthwhile if it discourages others who would be coal supporters of the far right. I don’t know.

Doxxing and call out/cancelation culture could be an entirely other thread. Every single time there is a horrible event they always misidentify people (on purpose). I don't get it but I also don't do anything in my life for clicks.

*insert promising swim career trope*

Doxxing and calling out/cancelling is two very different things to me. There's putting pressure on Covington to deal with this - they must know who he is - and then there's trying to figure out/publicize his information on your own. Don't doxx, don't ever doxx, no matter what anyone does. Just don't doxx.

I think there may be hypothetical situations where doxxing is okay. But that’s another discussion, I guess.

Btw, sad lol:

Glenn Greenwald went on Laura Ingraham's Fox News show last night to run interference for Trump-loving kids who harassed a Native American elder pic.twitter.com/i7W1ersK3O

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) January 22, 2019

identifying a fella misbehaving himself in public is not, to my understanding, doxxing

Discussing hypothetical situations where it's okay to doxx is like discussing the trolley problem imo. Sure, hypothetically, but it's so hypothetical that discussing it is a waste of time.

Anything that is digging up more information than is in the video is doxxing to me. Putting his face out there, sure, he did it himself. Saying it's Covington, already known, they're chanting their songs. Figuring out his name, nope.

xpost, yeah they are completely different things, people keep bringing up two and then I added in cancelation culture because I remember people also getting antsy about it a little bit ago. I don't really have interest in discussing them because they are pretty black and white.

Also, and I don't know if I even have to make this clear, but identifying Charlottesville protestors was ok. They were explicitly making a statement about what they were personally for, so at that point they'd given up their right to anonymity. So if the story had been that Nathan Silvermann is in the March for Life, sure, he was there to show he supported March for Life. Nathan Silvermann did something stupid on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, nope, that's doxxing.

Anything that is digging up more information than is in the video is doxxing to me. Putting his face out there, sure, he did it himself. Saying it's Covington, already known, they're chanting their songs. Figuring out his name, nope.

― Frederik B, Tuesday, January 22, 2019 1:14 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

any neat distinction between doxxing and 'putting his face out there' seems dubious to me? if big media outlets are doing pieces like this:

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2019/01/maga-teenager-native-american-veteran-harassment-smile.html

then of course that's going to lead to his name and personal details being spread around, of course it going to lead to him an his family getting harrassed, even if slate or whoever doesn't actually print his name

identifying Charlottesville protestors was ok

Ah, we agree then. For some reason I thought you were making an absolute statement about doxxing...

It's so crazy to me that there are kids that willingly wear MAGA hats.

The point is, identifying Charlottesville protestors wasn't doxxing.

Don't ever push more information than you've been given. But the whole point of marching is to show that real people support what you're marching for. So by marching you've given up your right to anonymity. After that, connecting the dots between who the marchers were, and all public information available, became okay. Figuring out private information was still not okay.

how do you distinguish between 'public' and 'private' information, though? e.g. how would you categorise the twitter and facebook accounts of the students in the video, or pictures and captions from the school website etc?

I made this, don't fp me thx - Public Shaming C/D?

It's really not that hard to figure out if a facebook account is on private or public, and most other cases are about as easy.

I don't think the public/private distinction holds a lot of the time, or that the idea of 'public' stands up to much scrutiny, just different degrees of privacy and control. ppl share a lot more when they don't think they're going to be under enormous scrutiny from strangers, it's not all fair game. saying you give up your anonymity/privacy by marching is only attractive when you're against the ppl protesting. the police in the UK were recently found to have reported disabled protestors to the department of work and pensions to see if mb they should have their benefits cut. just checking everything's in order with ppl who have voluntarily entered the public sphere, what's the big deal?

The problem here is putting pressure on work and pensions. That's never a right thing to do.

there's no reason to trust authorities with information abt protestors

Always some muthafucka on the internet tellin me I ain’t seein what I’m seein. Little white bitches in red hats symbolizing the lowest impulses there are. Fuck em!!! https://t.co/68uZXrdvTz

— Ron Perlman (@perlmutations) January 22, 2019

The point is, identifying Charlottesville protestors wasn't doxxing.

How no? It seems like you're splitting things into 'good' doxxing an 'bad' doxxing, just so you can say you don't think doxxing is okay. It seems like the same kind of thing - people searching through facebook pages etc. to find and publish someone's identity. (To be clear, I support doxxing fascists).

I am confused, Charlottesville protestors, we are talking about the identifying of people who committed crimes/hate crimes?

dude, I already explained it. I'm not going to repeat myself. It's not the same thing, for reasons I've already outlined.

Doxxing is a good when done to people I don’t like and bad when done to people I do like, just like anything else, ppl act like this is an inconsistent stance to have but I don’t see why

it makes perfect sense.

You're allowed to connect the dots between freely given information. A facebook-page is freely given information. If you go to a demonstration, that's freely given information. Someone snaps a video of you doing something shitty on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, that is not freely given information. And there must be a better term than 'freely given information', but I don't know it.

It’s a kid

This is like when a fellow teacher alerted me that some kids tweeted that they hated me because my pop quiz was too hard. It felt 1.) dumb and 2.) kind of like a violation, because the kids didn’t intend for me to see their angry cactus emojis

Can we move this to the thread that was just created for it

I think I hate the word 'kid'.

Fine

He was not an adult. He is not allowed legally to buy cigarettes.

You can't do anything in the US until you're 28 or sumthin '.

^ great John Mellencamp song

Someone bought him that hat with someone's money, though. And he put it on on purpose.

If you go to a public demonstration where the point is to be aggressively present and visible, then wear a Trump hat, whose point is to be aggressively present and visible, then get in someone's face (whatever the context), which is very aggressively present and visible, then do it in front of dozens of cameras, then no one can be surprised when your identity is revealed. (This goes for this choad and Charlottesville MAGA people alike.) Further, when you hire a PR firm to try to spin things your way, that is the opposite of seeking privacy and anonymity, let alone playing the "innocent" card. That is bringing *more* attention to yourself and trying to control the narrative to your benefit.