Public Shaming C/D?

Doxxing and call out/cancelation culture could be an entirely other thread. Every single time there is a horrible event they always misidentify people (on purpose). I don't get it but I also don't do anything in my life for clicks.

― Yerac, Tuesday, 22 January 2019 12:58 (sixteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Surprised there isn't a thread on this already (or maybe there is but I couldn't find it)

Thought about this a few years ago when I read Jon Ronson's 'So You've Been Publicly Shamed' - imo his best book, and very prescient in certain regards (but really not in others). From the (not very well-written) blurb on Amazon:

For the past three years, Jon Ronson has travelled the world meeting recipients of high-profile public shamings. The shamed are people like us - people who, say, made a joke on social media that came out badly, or made a mistake at work. Once their transgression is revealed, collective outrage circles with the force of a hurricane and the next thing they know they're being torn apart by an angry mob, jeered at, demonized, sometimes even fired from their job.
A great renaissance of public shaming is sweeping our land. Justice has been democratized. The silent majority are getting a voice. But what are we doing with our voice? We are mercilessly finding people's faults. We are defining the boundaries of normality by ruining the lives of those outside it. We are using shame as a form of social control.

Since then we have had the rise of the alt-right, who have received a great deal of shaming, but have been using the same tactics themselves for different ends. Also we've had the 'me too' movement, which while in general being an overwhelmingly positive thing, has muddied the waters in this particular regard by amping up cancelation culture. Since 2015 Twitter seems to have shuffled down a couple of circles of hell, and often it's hard now to tell what the actual transgressions are under all the fury (the company policy on which accounts to ban, and the existence of a certain president on there do not help of course.)

Public shaming is connected to: doxxing, me too, Twitter, whatever debate is currently taking place on Twitter, or on other social media. However, it is IMO a separate issue which seems to get neglected and/or bundled-in when it shouldn't be.

So, opinions!

fp'd

Gives new meaning to the global 'village'.

its very very difficult to draw the line nowadays between the public interest and the lack of a centralised, controllable group of actors with a monopoly on the dissemination of information

shaming is a difficult term to nail down

the desirability or otherwise of the general idea is heavily dependent on context

in short, like everything else, when i agree with this its good and when i dont its bad and when i log off and ignore it altogether its best

I just don't think it works with younger players, how can it when they are earning more than the manager before they've even made a sub appearance in the carabao

otm

shame on people who make everything about soccerball

Quite enjoy Limmy's ongoing scholarship of cancellation. He really does seem like an impartial observer for most of them

for me, public shaming is a response to perceived/experienced injustice and the perceived/experienced inability of civil society to deal with inappropriate behavior. it's an inadequate response but is often a symptom of a larger problem.

Yeah, that's pretty otm

perceived means

when i agree with it its good

I think this tweet makes a good point

A lot of the internet is 10000 people bullying someone who deserves to be bullied by maybe 1 to 3 people

— Brooks Otterlake (@i_zzzzzz) May 22, 2016

The population of a hamlet seen through the lens of a megalopolis.

There is something extremely creepy to me about public shaming. The ostensible goals — fighting racism and sexism — are extremely honorable, like the most urgent moral tasks imaginable, but it’s hard too believe this is the “real” goal when people so clearly relish going ofer the top with it and piling on. This is the contradiction that bothers me with it.

Like that girl who plagiarized a poem a few weeks ago and all of twitter said she was a soul murderer colonialist or whatever

Same thing with dragging a maga hat wearing child into the public square. I was a teacher once—teens do awful things—they are in a phase of life where adults should try to teach them a better way not turn them into a nationally famous symbol of evil.

That wasn't 'all of twitter' or 'people', that was the writers whose suffering she was profiting off.

It wasn’t just them. It was dozens of people involved in the poetry world.

Public shaming is absolutely necessary. A lot of the time it’s the only way to hold otherwise untouchable people in positions of power or privilege accountable

Classic. No need to explain why.

The worst thing that has ever happened is that people treat twitter or comments as a newsource, reality. First problem was that they let those kids wear MAGA hats in a place that they were not familiar with.

ime a lot of ritual internet public shaming is comprised of ppl who were shamed as children and have been carrying around the anger and resentment for years looking for an opportunity to transmit their suffering to someone new (and in their mind more deserving)

Re: the plagiarism case, there were the writers at the centre and then a much larger group (me included) watching from the sidelines and commenting on the spectacle. In retrospect, I don't know why I cared.

xpost Maybe for internet career trolls who I always assumed were mostly teenagers and retirees. I think a large part of it is that the formal justice system only really works for a certain demographic and people are tired of it. Which was kind of said above.

I think having her lose her standing and book deal was enough. I’m sure she was embarrassed. The idea of getting the knives out *at that point*, when she had lost her good name, is just an impulse I do not get.

One of the bigger problems with public shaming is that those most in need of it are those least likely to be impacted by it. When the willful, spite-motivated violation of social norms becomes a beloved pastime for many, I'm not sure how much utility shaming has.

Also, the internet is the worst goddamn venue imaginable for shaming (and for most things tbf).

Far as i'm aware mob "justice" is a long-standing phenomenon, the Internet has just created a new vector for it. It's probably not as bad as being stoned or tarred and feathered, mostly. But the nature of mobs makes them unamenable to correction on a person by person level.

ime a lot of ritual internet public shaming is comprised of ppl who were shamed as children and have been carrying around the anger and resentment for years looking for an opportunity to transmit their suffering to someone new (and in their mind more deserving)

― Mordy, Tuesday, January 22, 2019 3:29 PM (twelve minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

^^ this aspect seems more explicit than usual wrt smirking-MAGA-kid, lots of people talking about how his facial expression is the one they remember on the faces of the teens who tormented them when they were children. I feel like if this same incident had happened but with e.g. a burly MAGA hat wearing 30-something in place of the kid, it would not have had the same impact, part of the reason people are going in on the kid is *because* of the fact that he's obviously in some ways weaker and more vulnerable than they are, not despite it. like, they know that if they were alone in a room with this kid they could fuck him up, it's like a fantasy of going back in time to confront your childhood bullies now you're bigger and stronger than them. the fact that the subjects of public shaming are often fairly small fry in the great scheme of things is maybe a feature and not a bug of this phenomenon?

related (nb i was about to post this on the other thread) even if he wasn't a kid - attacking/shaming ppl for smirking/making a bad face at the wrong person is too close to thought policing to me. attack ppl for what they say + do not the faces they make imo. i understand lots of u had bad experiences with abusers smirking at you. the crime wasn't the smirk it was the suffering the smirk was covering over. even tho the smirk lives on as an open wound there's imho transference occurring but even if u had hard evidence that he was thinking some hate crime shit while smirking, faces still are not something i think as a society we'll benefit from shaming ppl over.

xpost I took it as this kid is already experiencing the power of being white and he's just going to grow up to be an even shittier adult. I see adult men do that posturing a lot when they are harassing people.

If I felt the need to call out every white dude with resting smirkface I'd never get anything done in a day.

This thread is bad and you should all feel bad

also that it gives people a way to express feeling that would normally be socially unacceptable, like wanting to beat up a schoolkid? some of the responses to those viral stories of white women calling the cops on black people feel like people enjoying a socially acceptable way to express normally forbidden misogynistic vitriol, there's a thrill of transgression

btw those of u who think only white males smirk are fucking lunatics. i have see smug looks from both genders this is an equal opportunity asshole face.

Basically there are a lot of Lee J. Cobb in 12 Angry Mens out in the world

if you've never seen a woman smirk you've never met a woman

as Bryan Adams once sang

Lol

have you ever really
really really ever pwned a woman

ime a lot of ritual internet public shaming is comprised of ppl who were shamed as children and have been carrying around the anger and resentment for years looking for an opportunity to transmit their suffering to someone new (and in their mind more deserving)

The victim becomes the oppressor, often at the first opportunity. Welcome to Earth.

Treeship, how old are you? Knowing this will really help me read and understand your posts, no joke.

ctrl+f for 'only white males smirk'...one result?!? Weird.

Of course y’all would immediately reframe this conversation to remove the actions of the person being shamed from the equation and focus entirely on some bizarre Freudian analysis of the people doing the work of holding them to account

unperson: you often seem like someone who bullies ppl to deal with your own insecurities and history of bullying so maybe knowledge of this information isn't enough to break the cycle?

OL: if you haven't seen the implication that smirking is particularly a crime of the privileged white male and not behavior all humans participate in then i suspect you either haven't been following the discourse around this closely or elided some of the subtext?

Shaming is particularly useful at this historical moment, because we have in place a set of social norms that are a remnant of a more civilized time: before the 2016 election.

They got up that close to your face, mordy? With other women laughing the background. I enjoyed that Bryan Adams song.

The white woman calling 911 on black people is also a very visual/modern signifier of how white women have always been partner to white supremacy and they will do a lot of shitty things to retain what power they do have in it.

Dan I: I don't believe you're an antisemite but maybe there's a lesson to be learnt about how we should judge ppl's words and actions compassionately even when they act like thoughtless assholes even if they may be signaling bigoted beliefs?

Unperson I am 29 and I have asked you to killfile me. Peace xp

Unperson I am 29 and I have asked you to killfile me. Peace xp

Now I have go find that thread about smirky animated characters, a la Kung Fu Panda.

WGW may refer to:

Wagawaga language (New Guinea) – former ISO 639 code WGW; later split into codes YLB (Yaleba) and WGB (Wagawaga)
Whitby Goth Weekend, a goth music festival in North Yorkshire, England
Wigan Wallgate railway station, Greater Manchester, England (station code WGW)
WorldGenWeb, genealogy project

lol, I meant Whiney G. Weingarten

everyone dogging into the thread is right about why the ppl itt are wrong but wrong about it being a bad thread it is in fact a good thread

WGW may refer to:

Wagawaga language (New Guinea) – former ISO 639 code WGW; later split into codes YLB (Yaleba) and WGB (Wagawaga)
Whitby Goth Weekend, a goth music festival in North Yorkshire, England
Wigan Wallgate railway station, Greater Manchester, England (station code WGW)
WorldGenWeb, genealogy project

― Trϵϵship

"what god wants", the first single from roger waters' acclaimed 1992 album "amused to death"

That’s what i thought at first, but roger water(face) hasn’t posted in some time

that's not a political strategy, that's a survival mechanism

fair enough i guess

i think TLG's point is pretty legit as a counterbalance to overconfident white progressives that there are unintended consequences to unexamined radical ideological positioning fwiw ... that said i do think the blowback to ppl wishing death on some teens while bad for leftist optics or whatever is still kind of a red herring / distraction from the way the system actually *worked* in this instance, which was to move to protect the positions of the kids when they were forced to face some consequence

the thing about 'wishing death on teens' is, anybody who is outed in social media for doing anything, heinous or imagined-heinous, is typically subjected to death threats. Which doesn't make it not fucked up, but it means the average friend of yours that was roaring over this story wasn't sending Sandmann messages like "Peek a boo, you are doomed".

I haven't seen anybody in my social sphere wanting to John the Baptist the little fuckers

OTM:

I admit I jumped the gun when I said those MAGA kids should have their lives ruined. Now that more info about the students and their school has come to light, I believe their families should also have their lives ruined, and Covington Catholic should be bulldozed to the ground.

— Bryan🌹 (@superlancerboy) January 22, 2019

So this is kind of hilarious. This thread reminded me to call out a friend of a friend (who was manpearlclutching at length about the maga kids being vicitms) about him posting bullshit about David H0gg like a month after the shooting. His response. "Hogg is an opportunist who sought and made personal gain from a tragedy."

Rationalization, it's not just a river in Egypt.

i lost track of this thread because i had other things to do, people were trying to defend rage as a viable political strategy? and then started talking about civility? are the two related because i don't think they are

IMO you are 100% wrong about almost everything you've posted about in these threads over the last few days, and I utterly reject your entire value system.

sorry, I'm just tired of the second-guessing of tactics. I support all the tools in the toolbox, all the time.

is sleeve really 52 and how do i get to shadow ilx

xp yeah sleeve I agree with that

the last statement about supporting all measures

Interesting the bullshit account (@2020fight) that edited/popularized the MAGA kid video hasn't been mentioned. Sounds like the story would have trended even if it had to rely on bot accounts following that account. Everyone ate it up, so... moot?

lol hoos

also I conflated this thread with the alt right thread w/r/t discussion of tactics, I apologize for that vehemence there rusho - death threats are not cool, "public shaming" seems to be very complex in the social media age and I shld read that book

Relevant: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2019/jan/23/conspiracy-theories-internet-survivors-truth

NBC looked into the twitter account, and found that it was probably not 'bullshit': https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/twitter-account-amplified-covington-catholic-d-c-march-video-appears-n961981 Again, the overcorrection has been absolutely insane.

this is a little off topic, but I think this is a great example of the internet's fascination with breaking down every tiny detail of everything - explainer videos, 10 things in star wars that you never noticed and will BLOW YOUR MIND, YouTube dildos and their "response" videos - really poisons the dialogue and our reaction to things

the initial reaction people had was totally correct, the kid's a smug racist little piece of shit, but then the internet has this compulsion to make simple things complex, let's see what happened 10 minutes before 10 minutes after for "context" oh wait they aren't bad the black Israelites are, oh wait they are bad they harassed a girl earlier in the day, oh wait they aren't bad the guy with the drum walked up to them first.... just insane, like people aren't that complex most of em are super simple and 9x out of 10 it's really easy to understand exactly who they are

And as is so commonly the case, the more intently the minutia is pored over, the more easily the big picture and any sense of context is lost.

ie how many of the people engaged in public shaming of teenage choads are willing to expend the same energy in seeking out and combatting the structural problems that turn teens into choads?

Today, my anti-Trump, very liberal history teacher friend, a normally level headed guy who has for whatever reason, lost his mind defending the Covington kids, just shared a Daily Caller article attacking Phillips. Seemingly unaware of the publication's history, founder, and reputation. 2019 is trippy

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2019/01/23/nathan-phillips-man-standoff-with-covington-teens-faces-scrutiny-his-military-past/?utm_term=.851630fab66b

A group representing Nathan Phillips wrongly said he served in Vietnam. Then came the accusations.
There’s no evidence that he’s ever claimed to have served in Vietnam, a representative said
By Dan Lamothe January 23 at 3:11 PM
Nathan Phillips, the U.S. veteran whose standoff with high school students on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial captured viral attention online, has often discussed his military past.

The Native American activist, seen beating a drum Friday as teens from Covington Catholic High School in Kentucky surrounded and mocked him, has referred to himself as a “Vietnam-times” veteran. He described in interviews getting spit on and called a baby killer by a “hippie girl” and told the Detroit Free Press on Saturday that “I’m a Marine Corps veteran, and I know what that mob mentality can be like.”

The sight of him surrounded by a group of teens wearing red baseball hats emblazoned with President Trump’s “Make America great again” campaign slogan and the shifting narratives about the incident afterward have prompted political outcry from conservatives and liberals alike.

Nathan Phillips, center, with other Dakota Access Pipeline protesters in February 2017 near Cannon Ball, N.D. (Mike McCleary/Bismarck Tribune/AP) (Mike Mccleary/AP)
The incident also has led to scrutiny of Phillips’s service record after an organization representing him, the Lakota People’s Law Project, described him as a Vietnam veteran in a news release and numerous media reports identified him as one afterward. Several, including The Washington Post, have since issued corrections.

In reality, Phillips served from June 1972 to May 1976 in the Marine Corps Reserve, a service spokeswoman, Yvonne Carlock, said Wednesday. He did not deploy, and he left the service as a private after disciplinary issues. From October 1972 to February 1973, he was classified as an antitank missileman, a kind of infantryman, Carlock said. He then became a refrigerator technician for the majority of his service.

Daniel Paul Nelson, a leader in the Lakota People’s Law Project, said in an interview that his group made the error and that Phillips never told the group he served in Vietnam. The group, Nelson said, “trusted what we had seen” in previous stories about Phillips, some of which also referred to him erroneously as a Vietnam veteran.

“We were trying to do the advocacy work that we do,” Nelson said.

Phillips, who turns 64 next month, is not old enough to have deployed to Vietnam as a Marine infantryman, prompting accusations that he was lying about his service.

The military will typically provide basic details about a person’s military service within a day, but the situation with Phillips was complicated because he enlisted under another name associated with a family that raised him, Nelson said. He provided Phillips’s full Social Security number to The Post with Phillips’s permission to help clear up the confusion.

On Tuesday night, Donald Shipley, a Navy SEAL veteran who investigates military service records, published a video in which he showed excerpts of Phillips’s service record.

“This is all going into that Native American guy that everybody keeps labeling as a Vietnam vet, and he is not,” Shipley said in the video. “A lot of these news outlets are using that claim of ‘Vietnam vet’ to kind of beef that story up and make it look even worse.”

Shipley, who did not respond to an interview request Wednesday, noted that Phillips enlisted under another name and spent the majority of his time in the military as a refrigerator technician. He questioned how that squares with an April report by Vogue magazine in which Phillips is quoted saying that he was a “recon ranger,” a position that does not exist in the military.

“I have a relative here who said he’d lead the way and scout ahead for us,” Phillips said in the article, which describes a protest at the Standing Rock Sioux reservation in North Dakota. “You know, I’m from Vietnam times. I’m what they call a recon ranger. That was my role. So I thank you for taking that point position for me.”

Nelson said that Phillips’s comments at Standing Rock were taken out of context and that Phillips actually was referring to the work they were doing at the time on the reservation.

In other interviews, Phillips has consistently described being a veteran of “Vietnam times.”

In 2000, he told The Post that he was a patriot who had served as “a Marine Corps infantryman” in the 1970s. He did not claim to have served in Vietnam and did not mention leaving the infantry after a few months to become a refrigerator technician.

In 2015, he described himself in a video interview with MLive as “a Vietnam veteran times” and stated that he served from 1972 to 1976.

Nelson said he did not know Phillips before the uproar but has “incrementally learned about this man’s integrity, and I have not been disappointed.”

With all the scrutiny of Phillips’s military record, he has now been victimized twice, Nelson said.

“It’s definitely a distraction,” he said. “It’s a diversion, in fact. I’d like to make the point that these papers being released demonstrate the most important fact, which is that he was in the military. He did not lie about that, and there are a lot of people who have been in a very irresponsible and vicious manner targeting him without being able to prove that.”

is your liberal history teacher friend a white guy?

Both sides, man. Both sides.

Man randomly stabbed in park may have bounced a check in the '80s. Was he as innocent a bystander as we'd been led to believe?!??!?

Yerac yup

There was a thing recently about why there is that rush to overly defend with all the sexual assault cases that have multiple victims and Kavanaugh, etc. It's easier to identify and feel that that could've been you, you've made that mistake in the past etc etc.

And I recently saw someone in the black community who explicitly did not care about this incident, change his mind. Because if he expects a level of equality and respect of his feelings and viewpoints who is he to say the indigenous community should feel differently or minimize their experience.

also I conflated this thread with the alt right thread w/r/t discussion of tactics, I apologize for that vehemence there rusho - death threats are not cool, "public shaming" seems to be very complex in the social media age and I shld read that book

― sleeve

no worries, i think we're basically in agreement (especially re: using all the tools in the toolbox), when i speak out against rage as a political strategy i'm mostly speaking of my ongoing efforts to reject my white male rage, i don't feel like i have the knowledge or experience to comment on other forms of rage. the thread just started moving so fast that it wasn't really possible, for me at least, to consider what i or other people were saying. another of the many reasons i avoid twitter - also the scale issue ums alludes to, you get 50 million people in a room together and nobody is going to get anything useful out of that.

We allocate more time to writing over each other than we do to reading, that's for sure.

post yeah^^^ and when I talk about rage and anger I am thinking of when I tell other women they should be angrier. Their lack of anger and complacency, such good and civilized behaviour, with how things are directly affects other women who aren't fine. There is the stereotypical picture of the angry feminist "consumed by rage" that circulates, in hope I guess, that women won't want to be seen as not attractive to men, number one priority. I haven't read Rebecca Traister's "Good and Mad" yet. I probably should.

White dude rage is almost always more like loud + demonstrative petulance. Imagine us in a Little Lord Fauntleroy outfit, it's easy if u try.

or when they murder their spouses, partners, strangers...

I'm saying qualitatively. It's not often a righteous expression of anger. I'm not forgetting the thing where the sum of western history is replete with destruction born of that petulance.

when I talk about rage and anger I am thinking of when I tell other women they should be angrier.

i understand -- however
being shamed (see thread title) into demonstrating my anger more publicly so people can see it doesn't seem like a good solution. in fact, it feels divisive (and even a little cruel) considering the effect that anger has on me in particular. i am plenty righteous but expressing it publicly is something i only do irl where people can see and hear my physical self. i don't express anger and rage very much online because it is unproductive and not good for me, like taking a rage pill that gives me a monster hangover.

i am not into public shaming in general tbh

Anger is a human emotion that shouldn’t be repressed. It simply is. Violent, abusive expressions of anger are always wrong (this doesn’t include self defense) but that’s not the same thing as anger itself.

xpost yeah i think we got sidetracked off the original topic. I was probably speaking more generally. And more about real life because I think having an opinion on the internet as a woman, using your real name, is too dangerous.

The issue is never people should be “less angry” about injustice or watch their “tone” or try not to alienate people or whatever—that’s not the issue. People should express themselves.

Public shaming is a separate issue. It’s a tactic that sometimes is necessary—cf. metoo many named in #metoo that weren’t otherwise being held to account—but can sometimes also be ugly and gratuitous and just another case of bullying, completely disconnected from the initial motive of fighting inequality. So it’s situational.

I think I actually sound a lot angrier in writing than I appear in person. It's probably the same amount of anger, but everyone physically handles it/compartmentalizes a different way.

It seems like a lot of ppl come across differently online. Unperson seems to think I am a college freshman.

haha! everyone is envisioning you in your dorm trying to make your first meal. yeah, i mean I would say the same things in person but seeing a person and hearing tone makes all the difference.

My big regret with ilx is that my jokes don’t come axross as well as irl. That or irl people laugh politely.

I mean it's so obvious that it hardly seems worth mentioning and yet also so consistently overlooked that it bears incessant repeating, but so much of the trouble stirred up by contentious online interactions is instantiated by the inability to see other people as like fully-formed people who have a whole existence beyond the typed words you're reading.

Feel like the story of Lindy West confronting her troll may be hella germane wrt this general topic of conversation.

so is public shaming good or bad?

we actually got that sorted ages back

its good when you like it and bad when you dont

i think you mean, 'is it Classic or Dud'