Ta-Nehisi Coates Rules, The Thread

the funny thing is first time I remember Fred from ILX it was defending Ice Age flirting with facism and saying it was ok because Danish ppl couldn't be fascist so it was cool

― Universal LULU Nation (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Monday, September 25, 2017 1:36 PM (seventeen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

totally thought that this was a reference to the movie about the squirrel and was trying to work out what that had to do with fascism (or Denmark)

I don't think there's a need to pile on, tbh. I only circled back into this thread because I was annoyed at how deej was treating Hurting.

oh, I think that meltdown a few hours ago merits a piling on, especially this frustrated substitute teacher routine:

Just... Fuck off and read Between the World and Me. And that goes for everyone.

― Frederik B, Monday, September 25, 2017 6:59 AM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Fred writes things like this so often that I wonder, does he think he's the only one who read this book?

'Everyone' is meant to indicate it includes myself.

I totally thought it was a reference to that film franchise as well, soref. I was like oh man as soon as I get to the office I need to ask UMS to point to that thread, that sounds insane

I have become very, very fond of the first Ice Age movie even if most of it doesn't make much sense. Manny is a great character in that movie.

Lol

my nieces love the first movie

also for reference if an ilx beef threatens to take over a perfectly innocent thread you can politely direct people here.

don't forget that thread's less-polite precursor: This is the thread where you call out another ILE poster for having sand in his/her vagina

Lol at politely directing ppl to a locked thread

also lol @ DJP's being the one that didn't have to be locked

I tied what I was saying pretty clearly to Coates' article earlier in the thread. I only "lost" the argument when it turned into a pissing match. I have a problem with the way the article implicitly dismisses class politics and a lot of democrats made very similar moves to dismiss class politics during and after the election. I'll try to again spell out where I think the article does this later when I have more time, because it's subtle

And I think that that has something to do with why Coates' readers in that radical anti-racist left publication The Atlantic Monthly respond so much to the piece, because it just becomes an excuse to wash their hands of class and say fuck those people.

Even though, to be clear, I don't know that that's Coates' intention.

He does not dismiss class politics you weirdo

I'd honestly like to know how many people haranguing about class politics grew up anything less than middle class.

Wishing you the very best fred, stay safe

I'd honestly like to know how many people haranguing about class politics grew up anything less than middle class.

― Listen to my homeboy Fantano (D-40), Monday, September 25, 2017 9:57 AM (one week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

hi deej i grew up in a working-class neighborhood, my dad was a refugee and my mother was the daughter of a roofer and a housewife and i like to harangue about class politics,

back to the thread:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/06/opinion/ta-nehisi-coates-whiteness-power.html

another thomas chatterton williams piece about coates. it's terrible. also isn't this the third time he's written this same article? conservative talking points about race made more palatable to nyt lib readers by its style and the fact that the writer is black/mixed race

loomis makes very good points here imo

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2017/10/politics-hope-politics-realism

yes i have no idea who thomas chatterton williams is but that piece is just insulting to coates; like, can you get someone smart/arguing in good faith to counter him, at least? fucking times.

I don't understand why it's so important to "counter" Coates at all

listen, you don't need to tell me, but he makes so many people so mad or sad or something.

anyway, thomas chatterton williams played himself

also i briefly followed ryan cooper on twitter because i thought i was being insufficiently leftist or something and then he approvingly tweeted this lady chatterton's lover piece and i promptly unfollowed him. i follow corey robin; who are other non-dumb leftists i should follow?

Yow, I'm definitely gonna start following Ryan Cooper now:

https://www.google.com/search?q=ryan+cooper&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj5p_uvxdzWAhVC1WMKHfSdBsQQiR4IlQE&biw=1866&bih=1065

I don't understand why it's so important to "counter" Coates at all

― Whiney G. Weingarten, Friday, October 6, 2017 10:35 AM (six minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

people have different ideas about stuff.

loomis makes very good points here imo

http://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2017/10/politics-hope-politics-realism

― El Tomboto, Friday, October 6, 2017 1:26 PM (fifteen minutes ago)

i read this last night and thought it was pretty unfair to coates. not only is his diagnosis pretty hard to argue with, but he's spent plenty of time coming up with solutions -- most notably his reparations essay. it's hard to fault him for being a pessimist

some poor choices of words too:

He’s not involved in the struggles in the United States in any way other than writing

oof.

I didn't say all his points are good, I said he makes some good ones. like

There’s a couple of interesting things going on here. First is the desire by white liberals such as Colbert (but really his audience and the people who looked up so much to Jon Stewart during the Bush years, etc) to think that people are mostly good and that if people are more educated they will start doing the right thing. And there’s just not really much reason to believe this is true. I mean, it’s a nice sentiment but where’s the evidence for this? You can educate people and they aren’t going to learn the lessons you want them to learn (most any professor in a field that focuses on social issues will tell you this). Rather, and Coates knows this, the struggle against racism is not an educated discussion. It’s a knock-down, drag-out fight to the death, sometimes literally. There’s no reason to think that liberals are really up to that fight.

On the other hand, a realistic diagnosis of the pathology eating away at this nation’s soul also can be bad politics if not paired with some way to move forward. Ultimately, throwing up our hands in the face of hate and white supremacy doesn’t do us any good at all.

I don't agree that Coates is throwing up his hands, so the rest is eh.

Also I have seen him do this to Colbert twice now which is kind of funny in the charlie brown and the football sense.

yeah there are some good points

i do kind of agree with coates' expresed view on the late show, and while i have a deeply fatalistic streak, i don't think of this in terms of fatalism. i look for the root of the problem. and i don't know that i've necessarily found it, but i think there has been, through this country's history, a fundamental and inherent contradiction about a country of "free people" that also takes white supremacy and race-based slavery as a foundational principle. america is based on a contradiction it cannot and will not ever resolve.

america is based on a contradiction it cannot and will not ever resolve

Please explain how this differs from fatalism. (I'm only asking you to speak for yourself, not Coates.)

Realism vs fatalism?

Please explain how this differs from fatalism. (I'm only asking you to speak for yourself, not Coates.)

― grawlix (unperson)

scope. america is not humanity.

What countries would warrant less fatalism under Coates's analysis?

this isn't a super-important point but one thing I really really like about Coates is that he's willing to say "I don't know" to a question. I've only closely watched/listened to two interviews with him recently, one with Chris Hayes and one with Pod Save America, and he did it both times. I think that's just a good sign of a really thoughtful person and it's so incredibly rare in political media, to the extent that it becomes obvious that people are just storing up talking points to regurgitate on cue. Normal people SHOULDN'T have a take on everything, and I like that Coates is comfortable enough to admit when he hasn't really investigated a certain perspective or piece of an issue.

The new Atlantic podcast has 3 interviews with TNC

hi deej i grew up in a working-class neighborhood, my dad was a refugee and my mother was the daughter of a roofer and a housewife and i like to harangue about class politics,

― -_- (jim in vancouver), Friday, October 6, 2017 12:12 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

i didnt say 'no one working class cares about class' i said im curious *how many* ppl insistence on prioritizing class actually grew up less than middle class. im a white person who grew up on welfare but cant help but feel like half the time ppl focusing on class really mean 'im uncomfortable focusing on race'

this isn't a super-important point but one thing I really really like about Coates is that he's willing to say "I don't know" to a question. I've only closely watched/listened to two interviews with him recently, one with Chris Hayes and one with Pod Save America, and he did it both times. I think that's just a good sign of a really thoughtful person and it's so incredibly rare in political media, to the extent that it becomes obvious that people are just storing up talking points to regurgitate on cue. Normal people SHOULDN'T have a take on everything, and I like that Coates is comfortable enough to admit when he hasn't really investigated a certain perspective or piece of an issue.

― evol j, Friday, October 6, 2017 1:50 PM (sixteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

theres a really good baldwin quote about this. i'll see if i can find it

Lester: We were talking about white writers as witnesses and you alluded to Mailer. How do you see Mailer?

Baldwin: Well, Mailer is something I’ve been desperately trying to avoid. (Laughs) All I can say is that - well, one of the hazards of being an American writer, and I’m well placed to know it, is that eventually you have nothing to write about. A funny thing happens on the way to the typewriter. There is a decidedly grave danger of becoming a celebrity, of becoming a star, of becoming a personality. Again, I’m very well placed to know that. It’s symptomatic of the society that doesn’t have any real respect for the artist. You’re either a success or a failure and there’s nothing in between. And if you are a success, you run the risk that Norman has run and that I run, too, of becoming a kind of show business personality. Then the legend becomes far more important than the work. It’s as though you’re living in an echo chamber. You hear only your own voice. And, when you become a celebrity, that voice is magnified by multitudes and you begin to drown in this endless duplication of what looks like yourself. You have to be really very lucky, and very stubborn, not to let that happen to you. It’s a difficult trap to avoid. And that’s part of Norman’s dilemma, I think. A writer is supposed to write. If he appears on television or as a public speaker, so much the better or so much the worse, but the public persona is one thing. On the public platform or on television, I have to sound as if I know what I’m talking about. It’s antithetical to the effort you make at the typewriter, where you don’t know a damned thing. And you have to know you don’t know it. The moment you carry the persona to the typewriter, you are finished. Does that answer your question?

Lester: No, but it’s an eloquent evasion.

Baldwin: Is it? But I don’t want to talk about Norman! Why should I talk about Norman? I’m very fond of him and have great respect for his gifts. Well, perhaps he’s a perfect example of what it means to be a white writer in this century, a white American writer in this country. It affords too many opportunities to avoid reality… . And I know much more about Norman than I’m willing to say in print. After all, I care about him.

What countries would warrant less fatalism under Coates's analysis?

― IF (Terrorist) Yes, Explain (man alive)

i don't speak for coates, nor do i see the relatively recent historical concept of "nationhood" as a historical inevitability. however, my reasonably uninformed answer to your question would be "most". my understanding is that the racial roots of, say, the european nation-state are based in a static understanding of ethnicity. what makes america unique is that, as a nation of immigrants, it has, like coates points out, a _malleable_ understanding of "whiteness". american racialism is distinct from "land und volk" ethnocentrism. this isn't necessarily "less fatalistic" except that strict ethnocentrism is ultimately less amenable to a system based on wholesale racial supremacy than america's understanding of race (which has more in common with ancient rome than with any particular modern european nation-state), and thus europe, in times of peace, is based on uneasy coexistence under the peace of westphalia, or under metternich, or under the european union.

Fatalism isn't hopelessness. Besides, Beckett taught this Hispanic fag to carry on anyway.

i thought the thomas chatterton williams essay was insightful and i'm glad it was published even if i don't necessarily agree with all of it

I didn't mind it; it wasn't hysterical.

In the most memorable sentence in “The First White President,” Mr. Coates declares, “Whereas his forebears carried whiteness like an ancestral talisman, Trump cracked the glowing amulet open, releasing its eldritch energies.”

tbf that sentence was and remains terrible

No, it wasn’t hysterical. It was dumb.

Xp don't think it's terrible, but it does make me wonder if TNC has been reading Sam Kriss

Not going to read the article, going to guess it's a load of 'nothing to see here rich white america, you're doing great champ'

lol