i read harlot's ghost too -- probably mailer's best novel and yeah seems to have a similar approach to finding out something about a country by analyzing the thoughts/fears/dreams of its secret service.
― the-dream in the witch house (difficult listening hour), Thursday, 8 September 2011 14:26 (thirteen years ago) link
the idea of a secret service as a nation's -- or that nation's ruling class's -- dreams of itself is great, i think: and jlc intermittently gets this on the nose -- but (like hare) he's totally bamboozled by thatcherism and murdoch and america and "the 60s" (all connected without going the full carmody), and his dream is set (in his ifction) like ten years after its (irl) sell-by-date
smiley's people -- which is in most ways way more of a fantasia -- actually grips this better, because its central characters are actual-real baltic exiles, so "isolates trapped in the amber of loss" is always going to be the Real they're battling
― mark s, Thursday, 8 September 2011 15:04 (thirteen years ago) link
the full carmody
better man than me wd have a field day with Photoshop here
― the Paul Squires of mean-spirited moaning and cynicism (Noodle Vague), Thursday, 8 September 2011 15:05 (thirteen years ago) link
"its central characters are actual-real baltic exiles" -- also they're dead mostly! key to a good handling of yr sell-by-date :\
― mark s, Thursday, 8 September 2011 15:32 (thirteen years ago) link
xpost Harlot's Ghost is simultaneously a terrific book and deeply unsatisfying - and for the same reason. He presents spying as, one presumes, it must be - where only a little of the operation is ever known. It makes it feel realistic, but because you only ever get bits of plot you long for a bit more flesh to make sense of it all.
Best US spy novel I've read was Robert Littell's The Company, a fantastic, panoramic sweep over the empire of James Jesus Angleton - Philby and all. Has all Le Carre's detail, but with added paranoia in the form of Angleton, and nice interaction between fact and fiction. Some of Charles McCarry's novels are very good on the absurdity and unintended consequences of spying.
― Trudi Styler, the Creator (ithappens), Thursday, 8 September 2011 16:42 (thirteen years ago) link
just finished the second guillam-in-the-circus section, where he gets called to account for self before the FOE ARRAYED IN PLAIN VIEW -- this is even better than the first one, because it's all about guillam keeping a bead on what he isn't meant to knowi'm not a huge fan of guillam-the-character, obsessing abt his flute-playing hippie gf
i'm not a huge fan of guillam-the-character, obsessing abt his flute-playing hippie gf
yes 100%. also this scene explains alleline -- the tv show iirc sort of misses alleline and bland. they just aren't much in it. but the cellist gf is worse than ann and they were right to drop it from the show.
― ain't no such thing as halfway zvooks (history mayne), Thursday, 8 September 2011 18:07 (thirteen years ago) link
that same "hippie/artist girlfriend" type turns up in a perfect spy
― max, Thursday, 8 September 2011 18:10 (thirteen years ago) link
haha my very dim memory of my response to "perfect spy" is thinking fuck this you dick this isn't a thing: but i don't at all recall the thing i was abreacting so aggressively against
― mark s, Thursday, 8 September 2011 21:59 (thirteen years ago) link
also haha at history mayne translating "flute-playing hippie gf" as "cellist"!!! d00d yr exes are showing
― mark s, Thursday, 8 September 2011 22:01 (thirteen years ago) link
it has a couple redeeming moments, but i have no idea what phillip roth was thinking
miniseries is pretty cruddy too
― max, Thursday, 8 September 2011 22:01 (thirteen years ago) link
the best bits are everyone scrambling to find magnus after he's disappeared
the really extended le carre memoir is rather less engaging, at least until magnus gets to eastern europe, and even then
― max, Thursday, 8 September 2011 22:03 (thirteen years ago) link
i watched the tinker tailor miniseries over last night and this afternoon. really enjoyed it, exactly my kind of spy fare, nice and slow too. obviously i might have waited and gone to the cinema to watch the new adaptation in a week, but i have a feeling that i'll probably enjoy it less if it's a bit more glamorous or what have you, which won't be hard.
― you've got male (jim in glasgow), Thursday, 8 September 2011 22:21 (thirteen years ago) link
After rewatching the original I can't imagine it being improved on, but I'll see it for the new cast. Will see the BBC Perfect Spy as well but like others I found the book really forgettable.
I don't know if something like Smiley's can be made now, detective story plodding along at amiable old man's pace.
'Connie's for the shredder George. The leech tries to fool me.'
― Brakhage, Friday, 9 September 2011 03:29 (thirteen years ago) link
ok, quite a chunk to roll out here: runnng order of larger sections is tarr, karla, sam collins, max, jerry westerby, haydon recruits prideaux
the reinterrogation of rikki tarr and smiley's tale to guillam about his one meet with karla are the book's plateau of moral-highgrounding for smiley: there's a small element of plot advancement and backstory infill but they're mainly given over to smiley's technique as an interrogator, at his best now in the approaching evening of his life, and not at his best trying unsuccessfully long ago to persuade karla to save his skin and defect -- key to both, his success with tarr and his failure with karla, is smiley's kindness and humanity (implication: our foes are ideologues and fanatics and this is the flaw that will end them) (a prayer more than a fact, you might say: certainly not immediately relevant to what actually ended the USSR, though this hadn't yet happened in 1974 and jlc was hardly alone in not seeing it coming)
(and yes, it's true that tarr gets thumped some more -- morality is messy! -- and also true that wily smiley is more approving of tarr's canny self-interest and truth-witholding than callow guillam)
then there's a bit with little bill roach having nightmares and being ill ftb the divorce-bogey is a-comin for jim and a section where smiley and lacon meets the minister (which is irredeemably borng necessary tale-business and i have to clap my jaw not to skip: it's extremely short so jlc feels the same, obv)
collins/max/westerby: again, minor elements of plot advancement and backstory infill in all three -- basically smiley seeks them out and quizzes them, the first two as per info discovered in his research -- but the real point of the three encounters is moral colour, i'd say... to give a live sense, as supplied by outsiders to the story, of the chaotic feel inside the circus during control's last project (collins); of the feel of prideaux's operation, max (a czech DP) being with him for the early, less troubled reaches; and, most likeably (jlc likes alkies and writes them pretty well), the feel in the world immediately beyond and outside the circus at the crucial time (westerby is a jobbing sports journo who supplies the service with information he happens on, less an agent than a sympathetic conduit)
you very much feel with all three that they're present in this story for the one scene, to tell their tale and supply their colour-perspective and depart our necessary attention.collins and westerby are arguably the better characters, certainy more memorable, if not especially deep -- max is a bit exile-by-numbers (there's an incredibly similar character in smiley's people whose name i forget: the max in smiley's people being smiley himself!), tho his role is largely to impress on the reader how a non-communist czech might feel about all this stupidity (=very pissed off); westerby of course also goes on to be somewhat rebooted in (and as) the "honourable schoolboy", which if i recall accurately wears the character beyond thin in a context jlc isn't well-suited to portray (post-colonial hongkong and south east asia in the late stages of the vietnam war) -- collins is also brought back, for smiley's people, in a faintly demeaning role
and then there's the trip back to old documents, and a reread of the young hayden introducing the young prideaux to the service: interesting little bit of spite and uncharacterstic semi-virtuoso tradecraft on jlc's part -- the young hayden writes (i) like a posturing fey student, and more ambitiously (ii) like a clever young man very infected by kipling's sense of rhythm and irony and pseudo-cynical masked self-certainty. The kiplingism is good -- pertinent bcz philby was named for kipling's kim, and culturally smart, bcz only a rightwing student or someone flirting with or pretending to be same would still be being kipling-esque as a pose in 1937-38. The primary plot takeaway is the hayden-prideaux relationship: which remains essentially masked.
Seems to me by the end of the collins section, one of the main suspects has begun to scream out at the reader. But it's very hard indeed at this late stage to reconstruct virgin-reader status.
― mark s, Friday, 9 September 2011 10:30 (thirteen years ago) link
^^^spite bcz this is the first time we see hayden clear -- ie not through a haze of hero worship and/or hurt fury -- and there's no way he pulls either trick on the reader, with the prose we get to read; except you can't help also thinking "no fair, d00d was still a student! hope no one ever judges ME on stuff i wrote as a student ect ect"
also there's a nice little sketch of the boho-bolshevik student party hayden and prideaux, lifted wholesale as far as i can tell from a similar one in dorothy sayers' strong poison (i'll look this up)
― mark s, Friday, 9 September 2011 10:44 (thirteen years ago) link
(ok it's less like the sayers than i remember -- the actual phrase i thought he'd lifted was :"a wildly proletarian coffee was served, to the accompaniment of a dreadfully democratic bun" <-- i'm certain this is from sayers somewhere, it's very wimsey-ish, but it's not in this particular scene)
(and again, the idea that it's hayden doing the lifting is astute: sayers a very popular novelist in the 30s)
― mark s, Friday, 9 September 2011 11:43 (thirteen years ago) link
The kiplingism is good -- pertinent bcz philby was named for kipling's kim, and culturally smart, bcz only a rightwing student or someone flirting with or pretending to be same would still be being kipling-esque as a pose in 1937-38. The primary plot takeaway is the hayden-prideaux relationship: which remains essentially masked.
ah that's it: lawrence of arabia. they more than once compare haydon to lawrence. philby's pater was, if i recall correctly, very much an irl lawrentian figure.
― a hurrrr hurrrr (history mayne), Friday, 9 September 2011 12:45 (thirteen years ago) link
st john philby was an empire dude who became militantly anti-brit and pro-arab, yes (possibly initially in response to the partition of mesopotamia etc after WW1): think he was more desk-bound than lawrence, tho (but who wasn't?)
― mark s, Friday, 9 September 2011 13:07 (thirteen years ago) link
i thought lawrence liked a bit of desk-binding himself nudge nudge
― the Paul Squires of mean-spirited moaning and cynicism (Noodle Vague), Friday, 9 September 2011 13:09 (thirteen years ago) link
ok, u guys are way too into this. they're spies, fuck em.
― incredibly middlebrow (Dr Morbius), Friday, 9 September 2011 14:00 (thirteen years ago) link
i read spy who came in from the cold, and next up i will read ttss and smiley's people. am i making a sequencing error here?
― caek, Friday, 9 September 2011 14:11 (thirteen years ago) link
smiley is in 'honourable schoolboy' between TTSS and smiley's people. otherwise you're good i think? he's not much in 'looking-glass war', but can't remember where that goes.
― a hurrrr hurrrr (history mayne), Friday, 9 September 2011 14:12 (thirteen years ago) link
lgw is either before or after SwciftC -- set much earlier than TTSS
he's also in a weird prep school whodunnit, a murder of quality, which i really don't recommend, unless the thursgood passages are your FAVOURITE BIT in ttss
― mark s, Friday, 9 September 2011 14:16 (thirteen years ago) link
re Richard Burton, let's just say he was in more good movies than Samuel L Jackson.
― incredibly middlebrow (Dr Morbius), Friday, 9 September 2011 14:16 (thirteen years ago) link
they seem to stand mostly alone and i'm not bothered about the canon. i just don't want to make some crashing error that ruins a future book.
― caek, Friday, 9 September 2011 14:17 (thirteen years ago) link
LGW is good but kinda boring so theres no real reason to read it if youre just doing greatest hits
― max, Friday, 9 September 2011 14:19 (thirteen years ago) link
and yeah you should read honorable schoolboy after ttss, even tho its the temple of doom of the karla trilogy
― max, Friday, 9 September 2011 14:20 (thirteen years ago) link
ie, it's the best?
― incredibly middlebrow (Dr Morbius), Friday, 9 September 2011 14:23 (thirteen years ago) link
Well, how are you with drunks wandering around Southeast Asia?
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 9 September 2011 14:25 (thirteen years ago) link
have we ever done an indiana jones poll
― max, Friday, 9 September 2011 14:25 (thirteen years ago) link
i should read honourable schoolboy before smiley's people? (yes, i am just doing greatest hits)
― caek, Friday, 9 September 2011 14:27 (thirteen years ago) link
xpost -- Yup:
Rank the Indiana Jones Canon
― Ned Raggett, Friday, 9 September 2011 14:27 (thirteen years ago) link
yes, and it was wrong
― incredibly middlebrow (Dr Morbius), Friday, 9 September 2011 14:27 (thirteen years ago) link
so wrong, lao che
― you've got male (jim in glasgow), Friday, 9 September 2011 14:29 (thirteen years ago) link
― caek, Friday, September 9, 2011 10:27 AM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
yeah, its the direct sequel to ttss, and i think it sets the stage for smileys people, which is much better
― max, Friday, 9 September 2011 14:29 (thirteen years ago) link
curses, just submitted the amazon order. thanks tho.
― caek, Friday, 9 September 2011 14:35 (thirteen years ago) link
i don't think very highly of Honourable Schoolboy but it's an entertaining enough read (mostly) and belongs in the trilogy.
― the Paul Squires of mean-spirited moaning and cynicism (Noodle Vague), Friday, 9 September 2011 15:06 (thirteen years ago) link
i'll say more on the prideaux debrief in a bit -- think i want to reread it, as it's point where backstory and current narrative finally get in step with one another -- but here's a note on jlc's tradecraft as regards location (mise en scene theory/pathetic fallacy alert)
the various tale-relating conflabs smiley has had have been in very different places -- some directly emanating from the person being quizzed, like connie's jericho flat or the casino sam collins now works at -- but in almost all he's been in effect the authority figure: the actual interrogator for tarr, callow guillam's guru when it's the karla backstory, the returned agent with ministerial backing... and the places do their work amplifying the way this inflects, from tarr's cramped hotel room (where he's more or less a prisoner for the time being) through to the curryhouse where he gently pumps jerry w (where in a sense they're equals -- smiley gives very little away -- and it's really only westerby's puppyish semi-lachrymose need for approval that undergirds the power relationship
but with prideaux, the setting is not a built room, public or private, furnished or functional-anonymous, but the wild hilly outdoors of the south west: as -- in effect -- demanded by prideaux; and smiley has no power he can really seriously bring to bear... prideaux could basically snap his neck with a single blow and hide smiley's body and who'd really be any the wiser?
jlc is good at compact and evocative descriptions of places: his london streets are very often real streets he's accurately portraying, and i imagine his countrysides are too (it's not a part of the UK i know); but he's also good at letting the sense of the space be a felt manifestation of the encounter -- the strength of the main part of the smiley-prideaux scene is that it's the first (and last) point in the book where things feel almost open-ended, so that you judge that prideaux chooses to spill
― mark s, Friday, 9 September 2011 16:02 (thirteen years ago) link
adding: it's not just that everyone's equal outdoors -- whereas indoors is always indoors somewhere, a building structure unavoidably embedded in an extant power structure -- but that prideaux the sporty man of action is more than smiley's equal here, and both know it, and placing himself here is the gesture of total vulnerability by which smiley elicits prideaux's trust
― mark s, Friday, 9 September 2011 16:08 (thirteen years ago) link
going to watch smiley's people tonight. i love the internet!
― you've got male (jim in glasgow), Friday, 9 September 2011 16:13 (thirteen years ago) link
morbs i lost my giant awesome comp of kael capsule reviews can you send me yours now that you've internalized it
― the-dream in the witch house (difficult listening hour), Friday, 9 September 2011 16:16 (thirteen years ago) link
esterhase's italian schtick in the smiley's people adaptation is hilariously bad.
― you've got male (jim in glasgow), Friday, 9 September 2011 23:03 (thirteen years ago) link
haha i love toby, he's easily my favourite character: his whole thing is "fluent in many languages, speaks none of them correctly"
― mark s, Friday, 9 September 2011 23:05 (thirteen years ago) link
smiley in the blau diamant, looool.
― you've got male (jim in glasgow), Friday, 9 September 2011 23:44 (thirteen years ago) link
this is actually hilarious, toby keeps up with the faux italian voice the whole time. and everyone pronounces his name differently to the way they did in tinker tailor.
― you've got male (jim in glasgow), Saturday, 10 September 2011 01:23 (thirteen years ago) link
well faux hungarian i suppose. it's only from a few years after the original series.
― you've got male (jim in glasgow), Saturday, 10 September 2011 01:41 (thirteen years ago) link
Aye, the guy plays it Hungarian in SP, while he didn't in TTSS. I explained this away to myself by saying that he was putting on the plummy RP while at the top of the circus, bur went back to his natural inflection after the fall.
In truth though, all the actors who put on accents seem to do a particularly rotten job of it.
― scotstvo, Saturday, 10 September 2011 07:17 (thirteen years ago) link
that's because they've been trained by toby!
― mark s, Saturday, 10 September 2011 09:34 (thirteen years ago) link
anyway, the prideaux hilltop debrief:
it comes in three sections, first the circus where control laid out the operation, last the various cells where, operation blown up in everyone's face, hajek aka ellis aka prideaux tried to screen as much/many as possible for as long as possible, before he was (inevitably) broken; and in the middle, one of the climactic passages in a book full of wary spies moving through dangerous places: a seemingly utterly english agent rendering himself effectively invisible in czech streets stiff with watchers who know he's there
once again the sense of place is ever-present: jlc's tradecraft is, in effect, to heighten a character's watchfulness by a kind of transferred descriptionalism -- as if his own gift for conjuring up locale swiftly and effectively is a manifestation of the character's heightened observational level... to be told you're a "watcher" is a compliment of the highest order, so naturally jlc allows the reader to get to share this quality, or to feel they're sharing it
prideaux is described, physically, as "crooked" and even "fanged" -- as a jaggedly palpable, noisy presence in the world -- yet (like smiley) his deep gift is to become invisible in plain sight; invisible, moreover, to his professional peers/foes when they're most expecting it... this middle passage of his tale is a guide to this, a guide to the superb level of detailed observation and anticipation it requires... and, also i think, to underscore that the core being of this seemingly brusque military sporty type is an uttertly gentle quietness: watchfulness is the centre of his being (ditto smiley; ditto smiley's little child phantom bill roach)
there's a weird passage early on, put in the mouth of lacon and thus easily overlooked as point-missing blather: lacon raises the notion that "method is morality" and then projects onto smiley the assumption that smiley can't and won't accept this idea.
well, for starters it's an ambiguous formation: and it's easy to just assume -- this is lacon speaking, for one thing -- that's merely the situational ethos of the high-end civil service ("i do my job to the best of my ability, to aid my political masters, through every change of government: hence even if they're utterly in the wrong, i can be in the right")
but it might also mean "your morality emerges from the method you choose" (as contrast smiley's interrogation technique from the evil soviet one: smiley deploys far less thumping, if not none, and no electronic probes, hence is "better", as far as moralists are concerned)
and there's a third meaning, much subtler and in a sense subversive, i think, of the book's stated sense of good and evil (which does function as an argument between these first two readings): this is the notion that to be true to your method (your technique, your skill, your craft, the still zen of your art blah blah) is to be true to the world
and in this central passage -- when prideaux is being the best street agent in the book so far -- he is truer to the world than any of the botched or confused reasons why his operation has been set in place (by control, or though the deceived control by the mole, or by the clashing forces of world history, or what have you: every other level is botch, compared to prideaux in the middle passage of Operation Testify, its failure notwithstanding)
the point is, i don't think jlc dares put his trust in this reading: whether this is cause or consequence, he's just not that strong a writer -- he's a writer with strengths, and with flaws, and the flaws always muscle back in (one of his strengths, though, is that he can often deploy his flaws as masks; just as a good spy -- or more to the point a good thriller writer -- must be able to)
[i've actually finished -- the sections following this one are "unputdownable", his sense of pace and momentum at its best -- but i'll try and pace my blogging in haha homage]
― mark s, Saturday, 10 September 2011 10:24 (thirteen years ago) link
Just to go back up to the points of it being a 'mini-' series as in I almost can't see that it would be pulled off these days -- imagine there would be certain pressures to make it far more of a prelude to 'Smiley's People' -- which I hate, never liked that Karla was caught, even if it never felt like a 'victory' -- and if it was to be made in five years time there would be a pressure to lenghten it to 10-12 eps and make it more 'wirey' somehow and lenghten the slow pacing (that's what a couple of people said about The hour which I've not seen).
― xyzzzz__, Saturday, 10 September 2011 10:43 (thirteen years ago) link