ILX Parenting 5: I'm a big kid now

Yeah but people who choose "no vaccination" are idiots.

^this

I always planned to vaccinate and follow the traditional schedule. Plenty of pediatricians are cool with this, at least in Austin. I was even surprised when I finally saw the nurse practitioner here and she so casual about it saying it was no problem then moved on without a beat. I just thought it was unheard of here. Just a gut feeling.

My friend would of given her daughters the full course had the doctor told her but he said she would be just fine on the delayed schedule. She asked him what she could do to lessen the side effects should there be any and he suggested a delayed schedule, it was not even something she was aware of. She was asking in terms of cold compresses, baby fever reducers etc...When the doctor suggested this she asked him many questions since she had not done any prior research and this was all new to her.

Ick at these doctors.

Another friend had her twins react poorly to the DTAP at 2 months so her pediatrician in NYC suggested spacing them out. She is now on a delayed schedule and has been for four years.
Her pediatrician mentioned that it is a problem for insurance companies but that would be the only problem.

Double ick.

So it would seem pediatricians are split on this issue?

"Her pediatrician mentioned that it is a problem for insurance companies but that would be the only problem."

Yup I can't see any other problems that might exist from not fully immunizing your children at an early age.

I think some physicians have given up under a torrent of abuse from vaccine crazies sadly.

^^this.

It's easier to give in than it is to educate people who have the barest understanding of biology and opinions about science.

Well an infant with it's full round of shots at 2 months is still not fully immunized.

My plan was a traditional schedule and to continue with limited exposure because I didn't think she would be fully immunized until six months. So still limiting exposure. The delay is 2 weeks to 1 month behind the traditional schedule.

Selective vaccination is different and something I wouldn't do.

I don't think crazies can change things that easily in the medical industry. We'd have better insurance, lower medical costs and prescription costs, birthing pools everywhere if they could.

I think pediatricians are split on this issue.

"Well an infant with it's full round of shots at 2 months is still not fully immunized."

Yup and you are taking her to a doctor's office were she's going to be surrounded by a bunch of other infants and children who are also not fully immunized.

"I don't think crazies can change things that easily in the medical industry."

Really? So that's why these pediatricians are basically ignoring the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices and the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Centers for Disease Control recommendations?

Medical consensus is that vaccines are safe and effective and the best thing for your child and everyone is to vaccinate on the normal schedule.

Now with the extra office visit, maybe some pediatricians like those extra office visits? In that case, eventually, will the delayed schedule be an option all pediatricians offer?

Options here:

1) Physicians have been bullied by crazies and quacks
2) Physicians are quacks
3) Physicians want to squeeze more money out of worried parents

Awesome choices.

I think pediatricians have their own opinions and now this not only offers parents a choice but pediatricians one as well based on their own opinions, beliefs and research...and maybe greed.

I think option 1 begets 3. If a buncha crazy parents want to bring their children in more frequently and pay out of pocket to do it, who are they to turn down the profit? Physicians loooove patients who self-pay. When you do that, they don't have to pay someone to do all the billing and coding that's required to get the money from insurance companies.

xp A misinformed choice that no credible medical organization endorses and which has the potential for making your child (and any child your child comes in contact with) horribly and possibly fatally sick.

It is an extra doctors visit.

Ahhh sorry didn't realize. That makes a bit more sense.

Guys I'm not entirely understanding the harsh reactions here to staggered vaccinations? I've never heard of them, but surely having a specific vaccination a month late isn't putting anyone at risk? (He says, having no idea). I mean I, uh..... have definitely forgotten once, OK maybe twice, to bring L in at the scheduled time and had to resched for a few weeks later.

High fevers, allergic reactions and auto-immune disorders all run in my family. I didn't know until after I returned from the office Monday that a delayed schedule can prevent these things from happening. Perhaps my last minute change based on a gut feeling was for a reason.

It is a 2-4 week delayed depending on how you want to do it. You bring up a good point though, Tracer, there are plenty of children receiving their 2,4 an 6 month vaccines, not exactly to the day or even week but delayed because of scheduling conflicts and forgetfulness.

Delayed is not a year in between, delayed is not selective, delayed should not be confused with choosing to not immunize at all.

thanks guys for calling us crazies and for using this loaded word "staggered' to describe our delayed immunization schedule?

but surely having a specific vaccination a month late isn't putting anyone at risk? (He says, having no idea)

Unless these kids are exposed to a disease before they're vaccinated. Then they get sick and potentially expose other unvaccinated or immunocompromised people.

And how is "staggered" loaded? You're spacing them out, or staggering them.
From dictionary.com: to arrange otherwise than at the same time

we could easily have a month delay just due to the scheduling of appointments at our busy pediatricians' office; there is def some overreaction going on in this thread

Okay so I'm not speaking specifically about what *tera is doing. If it is really only a month delay I still don't see the point, but whatever. However there IS an actual published and popular alternative vaccination schedule by huge quack Dr Sears Inc. That schedule does not involve a delay of months here and there, but actually spaces out the shots enormously and delays some of them for years and years. That is not at all a harmless matter of a missed doc visit.

I really shouldn't have to explained all of the meanings of staggered but
Verb
• [ intrans. ] walk or move unsteadily, as if about to fall : he staggered to his feet, swaying a little.
• [with adverbial of direction ] figurative continue in existence or operation uncertainly or precariously : the council staggered from one crisis to the next.
• archaic waver in purpose; hesitate.
• archaic [ trans. ] (of a blow) cause (someone) to walk or move unsteadily, as if about to fall
[ trans. ] arrange (events, payments, hours, etc.) so that they do not occur at the same time; spread over a period of time : meetings are staggered throughout the day.
• arrange (objects or parts of an object) in a zigzag order or so that they are not in line : stagger the screws at each joint.

Noun
1 an unsteady walk or movement : she walked with a stagger.
2 an arrangement of things in a zigzag order or so that they are not in line.

Wow, some words have multiple meanings. makes u think.

I totally meant a "moving unsteadily schedule"

Thanks way to set me straight, my mistake, i thought this was a very nice place to talk about how much we love of daughter with other parents and share different ideas of parenting and the joys of it all. You were unfairly rude to Tera and now are just being snide for really no reason.

I'm still not sure what your complaint about the word is. It's obvious the meaning that was being referred to and it's an entirely apt description.

Apologize for calling anyone (indirectly) a crazy btw. That was uncalled for (even Jenny McCarthy--who admittedly I was thinking about doesn't deserve that.)

I have not read the Dr Sears book regarding immunization. I meant to but had no time.

This is the schedule:
2 months: DTaP, Rotavirus
3 months*: Pc, HIB
4 months: DTaP, Rotavirus
5 months*: Pc, HIB
6 months: DTaP, Rotavirus
7 months*: Pc, HIB
9 months: Polio (IPV)
12 months: Mumps, Polio (IPV) (See 3rd UPDATE)
15 months: Pc, HIB
18 months: DTaP, Chickenpox
2 years: Rubella, Polio (IPV) (See 3rd UPDATE)
2 1/2 years*: Hep B, Hep A (start Hep B at birth if any close relatives or caregivers have Hep B)
3 years: Hep B, Measles (See 3rd UPDATE)
3 1/2 years*: Hep B, Hep A
4 years: DTaP, Polio (IPV)
5 years: MMR
6 years: Chickenpox
12 years: Tdap, HPV
12 years, 2 months*: HPV
13 years: HPV, Meningococcal (once Meningococcal vaccine is approved for age 2, Dr. Sears will move it there and delay Hep B by 6 months)

They are split up and spaced out to lessen adverse reactions and if there is one you have a better idea of which vaccine caused it.

B-b-but that is the Sears schedule! The same schedule that doesn't result in HepB vac until 2.5 and the first measles shots until 3?!?

They are split up and spaced out to lessen adverse reactions and if there is one you have a better idea of which vaccine caused it.

False. Humans--especially baby humans--are exposed lots of antigens every day and there is no way to pinpoint what may be causing a reaction. So vaccine antigens get the blame.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/6mishome.htm#Givingachildmultiple

It is called the alternative schedule among the people I know and the one my pediatrician office is familiar with (the nurse called it the alternative schedule) and the one the mid-wife provided when we asked about vaccination schedules. August got her first HepB vaccination at birth.

Kate, agree to disagree with you. All I can tell you is my gut instinct has been correct in the past and to ignore it, when I have, has resulted in disasters large and small. Not about to explain my gut instinct to you or engage in a discussion of it :)

thank you for that.

I don't really want to get into the debate about vaccines as I am pro-vaccine, yet I am not completely trusting of the CDC and I do not view them as any sort of guideline on how to raise my daughter. I'm surprised anyone would. It would be like trusting the FDA to make all of your food choices.

this >> jenny mccarthy wants your kid to get measles: autism, vaccines, and stupid idiots

Poliopolice to thread

i don't think it's crazy to distrust (or at least have some healthy skepticism) of medical establishment + even particular doctors, tho i am also pro-vaccine. but lots of doctors say stupid things! and lots of things that medical associations have said were totally okay have turned out to be totally not. aka: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyridoxine/doxylamine -- as long as the obvious stuff, like ultimately getting the vaccines to protect our species from idk polio is handled, i'm not terribly offended. our doctor told us in month-one that we should supplement nursing w/ bottle feeding formula to help our baby get fat. we smiled but we were flat out no way and i don't think we should be judged for deciding that the doctor isn't the doyen of all health decisions for our child

I think I may have mentioned upthread that our pediatrician's office was actually quite pushy about sleep training and strongly favored doing full-blown, lock the door and come back in 12 hours cry-it-out at two months old. The practice has a bunch of locations around the city and the founder wrote a parenting book and is styling himself as some kind of hip parenting guru for the well-off (we didn't know this when we joined, it was just one of very few options in Williamsburg).

As I've had time to reflect on this, I think this is not only wrong but a kind of abuse of the trust that comes with being a doctor, but that's because it goes beyond a subject of medical authority. It turns out this guy actually cites no particular research on his sleep training theories, it's just his opinion combined with anecdotes. And yet he has all of his locations aggressively push this philosophy, and it grosses me out. When we move I'm pretty sure we'll be switching practices.

I don't trust the CDC (or for that matter my pediatrician) to raise my child, but yeah I kinda do trust them (and basically the entire medical and scientific community which is pretty much in complete agreement on this) to help keep my child and a whole mess of other children from getting sick. And I certainly trust them more than I trust guys like Dr Sears who are entirely concerned with cashing in on parental anxieties.

yeah exactly. I mean that was kind of my point. I trust doctors on medical issues. I don't necessarily trust them on parenting.

In fact I think it's wrong of doctors to be too adamant about any parenting advice that goes beyond medical advice, because vulnerable people assume they know what they're talking about.

B-b-but that is the Sears schedule! The same schedule that doesn't result in HepB vac until 2.5...
― Fig On A Plate Cart (Alex in SF),

HepB isn't routinely vaccinated against in the UK at all, only if the mother is infected or there's a great risk of the baby being exposed. Same with BCG, and chickenpox and flu vaccinations are only given if the children have certain medical conditions or a weakened immune system.

So who is right and who is wrong between UK and US? Maybe there is no right or wrong answer. Some parents chose to trust the health system implicitly others chose to do their research before making their minds up. The likelihood of anyone's decision making an impact on your own life is teeny tiny, so why not just agree that people can have different opinions?

FWIW I looked into it and decided to go with the UK vaccine schedule but I can understand why other people don't make that decision and that's their decision to make.

Everyone's entitled to make their own parenting decisions, I had hoped the ILPM wasn't a place where parents would get abused for having made a different choice. Seems not.

What research? What choice? You're making it seem as though this some of measured sane debate where both sides have good evidence and well whichever way a parent goes it's all good. One side has spent the last 20 years outright making up nonsense and sticking their fingers in their ears and going LA LA LA when mountains of evidence to the contrary is pointed out. This isn't just some personal decision either as it has actual impact on the health of other people (as well as making the overall cost of healthcare more expensive to boot.)

AS I said, the evidence for not following the vaccination schedule didn't stack up for me, that's not what I'm arguing.

Are you wanting Tera to change her mind about her vaccination schedule? Then you're going about it the wrong way. Find articles, evidence, research to back the schedule, fine. But if you're wanting to change her mind then just yelling 'your wrong! Your crazy!' isn't the way to go about it.

Actually I don't really want *tera to change her mind (based on anything I posted)... that's too much responsibility for one message board poster, frankly.

That said there are a mess of articles out there about how the Dr Sears' schedule (and vaccine book) is a dangerous bunch of nonsense written by someone who has no understanding of immunology. Read at your leisure.