http://www.stylusmagazine.com/articles/seconds/hermans-hermits-no-milk-today.htm
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 22 June 2006 21:19 (seventeen years ago) link
"A person would not necessarily notice the ambiguity of the opening seven-second solo guitar part either."
...should have read as "metric ambiguity." That was changed in the editing and is, I think, unclear.
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Thursday, 22 June 2006 21:28 (seventeen years ago) link
― Casuistry (Chris P), Friday, 23 June 2006 05:00 (seventeen years ago) link
If you look at it that way, it's simply Intro, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus.
― everything (everything), Friday, 23 June 2006 15:55 (seventeen years ago) link
― A Study In Redd Scharlach (Ken L), Friday, 23 June 2006 16:02 (seventeen years ago) link
But the point is, I guess, that even though there's a more complicated structure going on than verse/chorus, the interplay of the verses and "verse extensions" and choruses is still somewhat regular.
Still it's a good analysis.
― Casuistry (Chris P), Friday, 23 June 2006 17:37 (seventeen years ago) link
The Ramones/Hermans Hermits connection is an interesting one to explore. Gouldman later produced the Ramones album Pleasant Dreams. Try singing the lyrics of Rockaway Beach over “I’m ‘enery the VIIIth I Am”, which is also the source of “second verse same as the first”. Is “Leaning On A Lampost” the inspiration for “53rd and 3rd”?
― everything (everything), Friday, 23 June 2006 18:04 (seventeen years ago) link
1-2-C-33-4-C-11-2-C-3
Actually, looking at it that way is interesting because you notice that the second unit starts by repeating the last section of the first and the third unit starts by repeating the last section of the second.
Still, I don't hear it as a ten line verse. I think the C section functions more as a chorus.
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 23 June 2006 21:29 (seventeen years ago) link
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 23 June 2006 21:30 (seventeen years ago) link
Actually, BBC makes for a twelve line verse. BBCB would make for a sixteen line verse. I don't see it!
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 23 June 2006 21:37 (seventeen years ago) link
No milk today, my love has gone away The bottle stands forlorn, a symbol of the dawn No milk today, it seems a common sight But people passing by don't know the reason why How could they know just what this message means The end of my hopes, the end of all my dreams How could they know the palace there had been Behind the door where my love reigned as queen No milk today, it wasn't always so The company was gay, we'd turn night into day
Chorus:
But all that's left is a place dark and lonely A terraced house in a mean street back of town Becomes a shrine when I think of you only Just two up two down
Verse 2:
No milk today, it wasn't always so The company was gay, we'd turn night into day As music played the faster did we dance We felt it both at once, the start of our romance How could they know just what this message means The end of my hopes, the end of all my dreams How could they know a palace there had been Behind the door where my love reigned as queen No milk today, my love has gone away The bottle stands forlorn, a symbol of the dawn
Chorus: But all that's left is a place dark and lonely A terraced house in a mean street back of town Becomes a shrine when I think of you only Just two up two down
Verse 3:
No milk today, my love has gone away The bottle stands forlorn, a symbol of the dawn No milk today, it seems a common sight But people passing by don't know the reason why How could they know just what this message means The end of my hopes, the end of all my dreams How could they know a palace there had been Behind the door where my love reigned as queen No milk today, it wasn't always so The company was gay, we'd turn night into day
Chorus/outro: But all that's left is a place dark and lonely A terraced house in a mean street back of town Oh all that's left is a place dark and lonely A terraced house in a mean street back of town Oh all that's left is a place dark and lonely A terraced house in a mean street back of town
― everything (everything), Monday, 26 June 2006 21:25 (seventeen years ago) link
Ambiguous, even.
― rogermexico (rogermexico), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 04:51 (seventeen years ago) link
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 07:15 (seventeen years ago) link
It's surprising that it's really so straightforward without sounding boring or repetative. Compared with "Your Mother Should Know" for example - it's not that much different as it really only consists of a verse and a chorus, yet YMSK sounds pretty turgid, as if it's missing something.
Still, Herman's Hermits were pretty often really basic. Their cover of "Henry the Eight" dispensed with ALL the original verses and just kept the chorus, repeated three times. Pretty rad.
― everything (everything), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 17:44 (seventeen years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 18:16 (seventeen years ago) link
― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 18:18 (seventeen years ago) link
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 18:22 (seventeen years ago) link
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 18:23 (seventeen years ago) link
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 18:55 (seventeen years ago) link
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 19:06 (seventeen years ago) link
On the other hand, perhaps even pop masterpieces could use improvement:
"A contrasting bridge will almost always improve a song. The more minimalist and repetitive the song, the better a contrasting bridge. -- Geir Hongro (geirhon...), March 18th, 2005"
― everything (everything), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 19:24 (seventeen years ago) link
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 19:51 (seventeen years ago) link
Dunno if that makes sense, and it's a bit of a tangent from musical theory, obviously. But this occurred to me while writing a Mojave 3 review a while back, and I'm still stuck on it. (E.g. Mojave 3's versions of country and now rock are deliberately simplified to the point of being "dreamy," I think in ways similar to how the Beatles would also reach back toward mother's music to make it ever-so-vaguely unfamiliar and "dreamy" and drugged.)
(Alternately, think of Ween's pop songs, the way they're so pop that something seems imaginary about them.)
― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 20:08 (seventeen years ago) link
The White Album is totally a Ween record, really.
― nabisco (nabisco), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 20:10 (seventeen years ago) link
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 20:18 (seventeen years ago) link
Yeah, I guess the instrumental bit in YMSK does function as a bridge. The song still feels like it lacks something though. I take Nabisco's point that it's kind of like an endless singalong like you might have on a old fashioned bus trip of the type depicted in Magical Mystery Tour. That makes total sense. I still think I like it the least of Paul's jaunty music hall numbers.
"Your Mother Should Know" one of those half measures at the end of the second verse. I realise that isn't very unusual for the Beatles (Cry Baby Cry, I'll Be Back, All You Need Is Love, Strawberry Fields Forever etc), but this is usually a Lennon trick, rather than something that Paul does.
― everything (everything), Tuesday, 27 June 2006 20:20 (seventeen years ago) link
Gonna plug my blog because I've got some recent stuff up:
http://thisiheard.blogspot.com
Nothing on pedal points.
― timellison, Wednesday, 1 May 2013 22:10 (ten years ago) link
ten years or so into being a guy who does music and stuff I figure it's time to get some vague sense of what I'm doing. Does anyone have any website or book recommendations for the real basics of theory, e.g. knowing chord construction and keys and stuff? For guitar and keyboard, but especially the latter, as with the former I know how to play in some unconventional way whereas with the latter I'm roughly at the point of knowing that pressing these things makes sounds.
― ohmigud (Merdeyeux), Monday, 13 May 2013 02:34 (ten years ago) link
Wrote on appoggiaturas and an instance of something being a hook versus something being less of a hook:
― timellison, Tuesday, 14 May 2013 01:00 (ten years ago) link
I found this useful:http://www.outsideshore.com/music/educational-materials/primer/basic-theory/
― 29 facepalms, Tuesday, 14 May 2013 13:09 (ten years ago) link
Wrote on structure of "P.S. I Love You" on blog linked to above if anyone's interested.
― timellison, Tuesday, 18 June 2013 04:15 (ten years ago) link
OK, changed it around because I made a mistake. Tell me what you think if you're into this stuff at all.
― timellison, Wednesday, 19 June 2013 04:16 (ten years ago) link
It's a frustrating exercise for me, because like "I have so much to say about Lady Gaga!" but at the same time I cannot, actually, get through reading a single fucking wikipedia page breakdown of any Sibelius symphony, they have been dissected so irrelevantly and uninterestingly by musicologists who, instead of identifying the innovative features in the orchestration or handling-of-material, just throw their "it's in b-minor and then goes to G-major" dicks around. Seriously if you want to see "worst piece of music writing ever" just look at a wiki for a Tchaikovsky symphony, I'll be over here slitting my wrists
― continually topping myself (flamboyant goon tie included), Sunday, 30 March 2014 00:53 (9 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
what I'm trying to say is: musicology is awesome but musicologists need to take an atavan or fifty
― continually topping myself (flamboyant goon tie included), Sunday, 30 March 2014 00:55 (9 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I think there is a place for academic analysis of pop culture (it's sort of why I joined ILX in the first place). Wished more people were going that way instead of down the Buzzfeed style route.
This issue was completely devoted to rock music, for example: http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.11.17.3/toc.17.3.html
This is something of a 'classic' book: http://www.amazon.ca/Understanding-Rock-Essays-Musical-Analysis/dp/0195100050
Kyle Adams's work on rap and Lori Burns's work generally (http://www.music.uottawa.ca/faculty/burns.html, has a few MTO articles, has written book chapters on Lady Gaga, Dixie Chicks, and Rihanna if you're concerned that the pop being analysed isn't always pop enough) are usually great.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 30 March 2014 07:05 (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Sorry, the Dixie Chicks thing was an article.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 30 March 2014 07:06 (3 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Blind drunk when typing those last two posts, sorry to any musicologists
― continually topping myself (flamboyant goon tie included), Sunday, 30 March 2014 07:59 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Ha, I mean, Wikipedia is probably not the best source for quality musicological writing. I suspect that people are confusing musicology and music theory on this thread though.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 30 March 2014 08:01 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Was wondering about that. What would you say is the difference?
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 March 2014 08:03 (2 hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Ime, on this side of the Atlantic at least, a simple explanation would be:music theory = formal/structural analysis of music (which includes model composition at the undergrad level)musicology = humanities or social science approaches to the study of music
I think that in Europe, what I would call music theory can be included as a sub-discipline of musicology, actually, which would weaken my original point.
(Grove on musicology fwiw (they don't have a "music theory" article!):
The term ‘musicology’ has been defined in many different ways. As a method, it is a form of scholarship characterized by the procedures of research. A simple definition in these terms would be ‘the scholarly study of music’. Traditionally, musicology has borrowed from ‘art history for its historiographic paradigms and literary studies for its paleographic and philological principles’ (Treitler, 1995). A committee of the American Musicological Society (AMS) in 1955 also defined musicology as ‘a field of knowledge having as its object the investigation of the art of music as a physical, psychological, aesthetic, and cultural phenomenon’ (JAMS, viii, p.153). The last of these four attributes gives the definition considerable breadth, although music, and music as an ‘art’, remains at the centre of the investigation.A third view, which neither of these definitions fully implies, is based on the belief that the advanced study of music should be centred not just on music but also on musicians acting within a social and cultural environment. This shift from music as a product (which tends to imply fixity) to music as a process involving composer, performer and consumer (i.e. listeners) has involved new methods, some of them borrowed from the social sciences, particularly anthropology, ethnology, linguistics, sociology and more recently politics, gender studies and cultural theory. This type of inquiry is also associated with ethnomusicology. Harrison (1963) and other ethnomusicologists have suggested that ‘It is the function of all musicology to be in fact ethnomusicology; that is, to take its range of research to include material that is termed “sociological”’
)― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 30 March 2014 08:14 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
In the US/Canada, ime, I think it would more common for theory/composition to be combined in a department or 'area' within a department as for theory/musicology to be combined, although the latter is definitely not unheard of.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 30 March 2014 08:18 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
@ Sund4r I keep up with that journal but have learned to skip the articles about pop rock and rap. My ish is that those pop articles seem intended for an audience of no-one. The language is too academic for people who're interested in Radiohead, and Radiohead is too easily parsed for people who can comprehend an academic theoretical approach. I mean:
“Paranoid Android” was composed and recorded by the alternative rock band Radiohead and appears on their widely acclaimed album OK Computer (1997).(9) As Radiohead critics and fans point out, the title of the rock song references the fictional character “Marvin the Paranoid Android” from Douglas Adams’s 1978 BBC radio comedy series The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, which was later adapted into a series of books. Unlike Adams’s comedic portrayal of the depressed robot Marvin, however, Radiohead’s “Paranoid Android” appears to depict a socially alienated and anxiety-ridden persona surrounded by a society consumed by the trappings of capitalism––one of several themes that the album explores. Power (“When I am king”) and materialism (“gucci”; “yuppies”) generate self-importance (“Why don’t you remember my name”) and excess (“piggy”), threatening to consume, impair, and silence (“With your opinions which are of no consequence at all”) in the desire for more (Example 1a). The fear and realization that the capitalist machine has participated in the formation of the subject and created, as a condition of possibility, the potential to equate the valuation of material goods with identity and self-worth, provokes a split subject––a “paranoid android” who recognizes that its individual thoughts and ambitions may also be a product of the capitalist machine (“Please could you stop the noise . . . from all the unborn chicken voices in my head”).(10) The plea to be cleansed (“Rain down on me from a great height”) from the markers of a capitalist identity proves futile in the song’s final section; the potential for grace and intervention is met with a cynicism that God may be passive (“God loves his children, yeah!”), leaving the persona no escape from Pandemonium. That all of the individuals in “Paranoid Android” are condemned to the same fate, regardless of social status or wealth, lends an ironic twist to the song’s ending.
― continually topping myself (flamboyant goon tie included), Sunday, 30 March 2014 08:20 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
My eyes glazed over there too but that's just like an introductory paragraph about the song more generally, though, right? The meat of the piece is the actual musical analysis.
I totally disagree with this!:
Radiohead is too easily parsed for people who can comprehend an academic theoretical approach.It's way easier to parse something that i) is written on paper and/or ii) is played on acoustic instruments, not to mention something that follows CPP harmonic or formal conventions (or is far simpler in those terms than Radiohead is).― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 30 March 2014 08:31 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Even under the rubric of Theory, don't different people use it to mean different things at different times? An old school classical guy might be referring to something out of the common practice period, particularly the law as laid down by Rameau in 1722, whereas a recent Berklee grad is walking around with his head stuffed up with Chord Scale Theory?
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 March 2014 08:32 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
My eyes glazed over too but I hadn't put together where the title "Paranoid Android" came from so I learned something.
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 March 2014 08:34 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
*moves to the other thread*
― continually topping myself (flamboyant goon tie included), Sunday, 30 March 2014 08:36 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Even under the rubric of Theory, don't different people use it to mean different things at different times? An old school classical guy might be referring to something out of the common practice period, particularly the law as laid down by Rameau in 1722, whereas a recent Berklee grad is walking around with his head stuffed up with Chord Scale Theory?Sure, but they're both doing structural/formal analysis of music. They're just working with different repertoire. They could still present at similar conferences, etc. Anyway, I better go mark some counterpoint.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 30 March 2014 08:36 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
(Xp)I guess what I am trying to say is if you define theory as something like "the study of what chords go together and what melodies go with them" then there are different approaches to theory and some explain certain things better than others. What is surprising or not done in one theory is not surprising and done all the time in another. If you don't take this into account then theory is kind of a strawman.
*ok I'm leaving too*
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 March 2014 08:39 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
(Something about tyranny of theory, blah blah blah)
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 March 2014 08:45 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I want to continue this discussion just in the more specific "talking about articles" thread instead of the "lol at this guy" thread
― continually topping myself (flamboyant goon tie included), Sunday, 30 March 2014 08:54 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 30 March 2014 15:18 (nine years ago) link
HI DERE
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 March 2014 15:39 (nine years ago) link
Anyway, this is definitely true and I think any sensible theorist would agree:
I guess what I am trying to say is if you define theory as something like "the study of what chords go together and what melodies go with them" then there are different approaches to theory and some explain certain things better than others. What is surprising or not done in one theory is not surprising and done all the time in another. If you don't take this into account then theory is kind of a strawman.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 30 March 2014 15:43 (nine years ago) link
so what is the difference between "technical discussion" as in guitar player magazine (or some better representative mag, or any of them, i don't know them very well) and "technical discussion" in an academic context? do they discuss the same sorts of things? are there lacunae in either that the other addresses? or is it just audience and intent?
(my guess is that trade mags care _way_ more about equipment, partly because they exist as part of a complex whose purpose is to sell equipment, but my question is, does the lack of attention to equipment hurt academic writing? also i know some academic writing cares about the craft and production of instruments v. much. also a guess would be that the academic and the trade approach both don't address the social as much as some [we?] might desire, but fail to address it in radically different ways.)
― eric banana (s.clover), Sunday, 30 March 2014 17:59 (nine years ago) link
guitar mag discussion is often looking at playing technique rather than the music in itself, but there is definitely overlap discussing innovation, phrasing w/e
― ogmor, Sunday, 30 March 2014 18:45 (nine years ago) link
Couple thoughts on Owen's pieces:
Sympathetic to the premise that "Get Lucky" is in the Dorian mode.
When "Teenage Dream" switches from the I chord in the intro to rooting that harmony on the fourth, it creates a major seventh chord on the IV. The softness of that chord is sort of the consolation for the song's weightless state of flux.
― timellison, Sunday, 30 March 2014 19:13 (nine years ago) link
Yes, exactly. Theorists are more concerned with the larger-scale questions of what the vocabulary and syntax of a music are, how pieces of music can be understood structurally. Ogmor is definitely right that there can be some overlap, and in these areas, I would think that the difference is comparable to the difference between the academic and popular versions of any field of discussion (Psychology Today vs academic psychology journals, CNN or Fox vs a political science symposium, etc): the level of training that is usually expected and the peer-review process do imo tend to promote a certain level of rigour and originality, if not always readability. Honestly, discussion of theory in guitar magazines is often even riddled with incorrect terminology even for basic things. Doesn't mean (at all) that there's nothing useful there.
Where fgti and I might be on the same page is that its not always entirely clear to me what the ultimate goal or purpose is with a lot of academic analysis of popular music, aside from sheer scholarly interest (and lines on the CV, ha). With guitar mags, it's usually clear that the articles are there for people to learn specific techniques from. With the analysis of art music, it's easy for me to see how the work is useful for people who want to compose and/or play art music (who are the usual audience for these journals). While I still disagree with him that Radiohead (or, say, "Close to the Edge") is too easy to parse for someone with art music training, it's not 100% clear to me what the readers are going to gain from the exercise: it does not seem that this is going to have the direct benefit of helping (most) people learn how to write and play rock music. There can still be some value in understanding how the music 'works' or is put together, though, and it is actually possible for it to influence art music composition tbh (because those artists have probably influenced mine!).
xpost
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 30 March 2014 19:15 (nine years ago) link
(xp!) Don't know what academic discussion you might be referring to, s. clover. You should realize that a good part of academic music studies- Sund4r can correct me if I am wrong- consists of professional programs offering Bachelors or Masters degrees in performance and education. Of course as part of this they teach composition and give instrumental instruction. The purpose of this is to give the students the skills -and accreditation - to enable them to hopefully make a living as player/teachers, so these institutions are not necessarily doing academic research as the word theory might lead you to believe. The theory as such is supposed to aid the awareness of students as composers and improvisers of what notes and chords are available to them at any given point. I haven't read any guitar mags in a bit, but in between the gear articles and the player interviews they always have transcriptions of tunes and, more to the point, regular columns where somebody explains that if you want to play in a certain style these are typical chord progressions and typical things you might play, with a little theoretical gloss thrown in. For instance, Bass Player magazine might have an article entitle "Funk 101: Dorian Octaves." This kind of thing is a bite-sized version of what you might get in one of those programs. Actually one of the authors of a long running popular and useful column in Bass Player was (don't know if he still does it) none other than everybody's favorite Daft Punk bassist, Nathan East.
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 March 2014 19:16 (nine years ago) link
well if you look at english departments, their main (or at least one main) social role is really to produce people capable of teaching undergrad level reading and composition, but also by dint of being part of the "academic world" one also produces analyses of rhetoric in milton or what have you, and one can argue that this is a good or a bad thing or was a good thing but now is in some ways a bad thing (by obscuring the labor function of academia as a way to explain away low salaries 'for the love of the discipline' or etc), but in any case, is this somewhat the situation in music/musicology depts?
― wat is teh waht (s.clover), Sunday, 30 March 2014 19:46 (nine years ago) link
Yes, but the majority of the guys I'm talking about don't have to publish anything like the equivalent of Milton Studies you mention. They are part of the professional side of academia, not the research side, and don't have to go through the same hurdles: orals, writtens, postdoc, maybe another postdoc, tenure track, etc, they just have to come out of a program like the one they end up teaching in, more or less.
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 March 2014 19:55 (nine years ago) link
That's only true of instrumental teachers (who are generally contract instructors), surely? Neither University of Ottawa nor University of Toronto will even consider someone for a sessional (adjunct) teaching position in composition, music theory, or musicology if he or she does not have a PhD in hand.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 30 March 2014 20:35 (nine years ago) link
(I'll have a lot more to say later on. This is a big question, far bigger than a 'Rolling Music Theory' thread can support if we're going to really get into it.)
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 30 March 2014 20:37 (nine years ago) link
Interesting. From what I know in NYC a PhD is not required to teach at the Aaron Copland School of Music at Queens College, nor at the Columbia University Department of Music, The New School, or the Manhattan School of Music. A music professor with a PhD, such as Chris Washburne, is the exception not the rule.
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 March 2014 20:51 (nine years ago) link
Anyway I wanted to ask what people thought of Chord Scale Theory, it's uses and abuses, but maybe we've already bitten off more than we can chew on this thread.
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 March 2014 20:53 (nine years ago) link
Link to Sund4r's new thread: Music Academia
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 March 2014 21:07 (nine years ago) link
Still trying to get some eyeballs on this interesting, original idiosyncratic work: http://www.modalogy.net/. I was thinking about it in the context of the mother thread to this one, where the guy talks about the harmonic trick. Not so tricky when you realize that the resolution of modal cadences at weaker than those of a major/minor tune.
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 March 2014 22:01 (nine years ago) link
Also interested in the question of
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 March 2014 22:08 (nine years ago) link
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 March 2014 22:10 (nine years ago) link
Ha, "modal jazz"
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 March 2014 22:11 (nine years ago) link
Thread of missing the "Greensleeves" thread.
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 March 2014 22:14 (nine years ago) link
Clearly there is some overlap between modes and scales, given that the major scale is also called the "Ionian" mode.
― james franco tur(oll)ing test (Hurting 2), Monday, 31 March 2014 02:09 (nine years ago) link
I'm not actually sure if there's a meaningful difference.
I think there might be, maybe. I think the scale is just the set of pitches plus the starting point and nowadays mode usually means exactly the same thing but in ye olde time Renaissance music the mode meant the, um, ordered set of pitches, plus the various conventional practices that went with them. This is something I feel like I have seen out of the corner of my eye somewhere , I'll have to track down a reference.
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 March 2014 02:17 (nine years ago) link
As I understand it, the standard modes are identical to major keys except the root note is a different step in the scale.
Mode is closer to key, while the scale is the ordered sequence of notes in the mode or key.
― nitro-burning funny car (Moodles), Monday, 31 March 2014 02:26 (nine years ago) link
Yes, something like that. There is a discussion of this on pages 158-159 of Lewis Porter's John Coltrane bio. I can't type it in right now so you will have to refer to your own copy.
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 March 2014 02:29 (nine years ago) link
He refers to a paper called "Three Pragmatists in Search of a Theory" by Harold Powers which I find a brief reference to and quote from here: http://mtosmt.org/issues/mto.13.19.3/mto.13.19.3.judd.php although I can't quite make head or tail of the quote or the surrounding article yet.
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 March 2014 02:51 (nine years ago) link
Then there is this
http://www.jazzstandards.com/theory/modal-jazz.htm
One contemporary (and widely-taught) approach to improvisation views every chord as having one or more scales that can be played over it. Although it involves the use of modes, this approach to soloing does not necessarily make a tune “modal.”
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 March 2014 02:55 (nine years ago) link
The language is too academic for people who're interested in Radiohead, and Radiohead is too easily parsed for people who can comprehend an academic theoretical approach.
I think I actually disagree with the first part of this too (sorry fgti): almost everyone in my PhD program was interested in Radiohead! I'm pretty sure I'm more interested in them than in Brian Ferneyhough.
Anyway, I think that this discussion has been helpful for me. I haven't written a theory paper in years and now I realize that it's because I wasn't actually sure what the purpose/value of it would be. I think that talking about this has helped me clarify what it could be; I actually feel enthusiastic about attempting it this summer.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 31 March 2014 20:30 (nine years ago) link
I've read several rollicking music theory nerd discussions of radiohead songs.
― james franco tur(oll)ing test (Hurting 2), Monday, 31 March 2014 20:31 (nine years ago) link
Interested to hear what exactly inspired Sund4r in this discussion but maybe it's best just to wait for the paper.
― Bristol Stomper's Breakout (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 March 2014 20:59 (nine years ago) link
It was this train of thought, where I started questioning the use of this kind of analytical work, then realized that this doubt was what was holding me back from doing any of it, then started thinking about what its use could be. (The last part is not completely fleshed out in the post below but I think I will articulate it when the time comes):
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 01:40 (nine years ago) link
Here is a guy talking about a few ideas that I found interesting but haven't fully digested yet in that book Modalogy I have been plugging: http://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/22308-modal-cadences-modal-interchange.html
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 04:20 (nine years ago) link
"Get Lucky" doesn't really have a Dorian feel to me. It just starts on the iv chord. B is never a point of resolution for the melody; it tends to resolve to F# ("like the legend of the phoenix"/"we've come too far") or A ("we're up all night to get lucky").
― coops all on coops tbh (crüt), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 04:32 (nine years ago) link
like, I wouldn't say "Get Lucky" is in the Dorian mode for the same reasons I wouldn't say a song with a looping ii-V-I-vi progression is in the Dorian mode
― coops all on coops tbh (crüt), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 04:37 (nine years ago) link
crut otm. nailed it imo.
― james franco tur(oll)ing test (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 04:52 (nine years ago) link
I mean the "ky" in "lucky" isn't an F#, it's an A, but I agree that generally the song pulls toward F#.
― james franco tur(oll)ing test (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 04:54 (nine years ago) link
Oh, I very much hear B as a point of resolution for the chorus melody. I hear the melody as a sequence that descends until it gets to B with that A as a blue note lower neighbor.
Where is the pulling toward F#? B minor is the chord that occurs in the strong measure. For me, the song pulls toward that.
― timellison, Tuesday, 1 April 2014 05:39 (nine years ago) link
http://forum.emusictheory.com/read.php?5,13517
Eg, a while back there was a long-standing (apparently interminable) debate on another site (or two) about whether Lynyrd Skynyrd's "Sweet Home Alabama" was in G major (V-IV-I-I) or in D mixolydian (I-bVII-IV-IV). Each camp was vociferous in its own absolute conviction. The reason was that almost everyone genuinely heard it as definitely one or the other, and couldn't hear it the other way. Those who thought differently were simply "wrong" (and maybe deaf and stupid at the same time).
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 11:14 (nine years ago) link
I'd agree that it's ultimately a matter of perception, but my gut tells me that F# minor is the resting chord. pretty sure the tempo & key of the song are an homage to Billie Jean, which is in F# minor.
― coops all on coops tbh (crüt), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 12:24 (nine years ago) link
I'm used to hearing minor key songs with a VI-VI-i-VII progression & I hear the Bm7 as a substitution for the first VI chord
― coops all on coops tbh (crüt), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 12:26 (nine years ago) link
obv the ambiguity of having two "strong" chords is part of what makes the chord progression infinitely loopable
― coops all on coops tbh (crüt), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 12:29 (nine years ago) link
I hear Sweet Home Alabama as G major fwiw
― coops all on coops tbh (crüt), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 12:31 (nine years ago) link
"Get Lucky" is clearly in Aeolean, but in the comments there are those who think it's in Dorian, and a guy who wrote an analysis for CoS who said it was in A-major (?!), and another guy who thought "Dreams" was in Aeolean???!!!
With the Gaga bit people I think are starting to pick up on the futility of this column I hope. All of the comment arguments we have been having have been about "oh you notated it wrong" or "oh you're writing about this in base-C? why?" or debates about differences between IV7 (classical) and IVma7 (jazz). Because of the disparity of language I can't help but just... feel like it's so fruitless. Even that Elton John "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" piece there was a part of me that was like "dude it's called a Neopolitan 6th let me introduce you to Strauss" which is of-course a bullshit response, that modulation is fantastic
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 12:45 (nine years ago) link
I think there's something about Get Lucky that sounds almost like it would be a break or b-section in a song in F# minor, only it just keeps repeating instead of going back to the A-section.
― james franco tur(oll)ing test (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 13:35 (nine years ago) link
Wait, did somebody day Aeolian?
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 13:50 (nine years ago) link
Say.
(S is next to D, sorry)
Scanning through that blog, it looks pretty good, actually! I don't like the "learn the secrets" kind of angle but I'm all for introducing people to iiis and bVIs and correctly pointing out the link between The Crickets and early Beatles.
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 14:07 (nine years ago) link
Marcello tweeted that it's unfortunate that people talk about "Born This Way" = "Express Yourself" but not "Holiday" = "The Look Of Love", (which I don't hear in the slightest)
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 14:10 (nine years ago) link
Are you saying that pop music analysis seems futile because there are different systems of terminology?
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 14:17 (nine years ago) link
(But these debates about what the tonic even is in Lynyrd Skynyrd or Daft Punk songs demonstrate my point about why I don't think pop music is too easy for theorists to bother parsing. No one debates what the tonic is in a Bach chorale or Mozart piano sonata, at least most of the time.)
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 14:19 (nine years ago) link
Well Sund4r there's "what do I think" and "what do I feel". I think that the kind of analysis that you read in that "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" piece where it's like "oh! this guy is identifying the most defining trait of this song and probably the cleverest harmony-coup of Elton's career". I think that when I scan through the "Aeolean" blog linked above it's like "oh! how interesting that they started using iii-chords in pop songs at a specific point".
But "what do I feel"? My own ears hear music in the abstract. I hear, say, a I-iii-IV-bII-V-I movement (and most movements that would be contained within pop music) without thinking about what chords or key it's in. My fingers naturally move to the keys, to the guitar chords. Most pop musicians I know work the same way-- even asking somebody "what key is the song in?" you've got a 50/50 chance that the musician knows or cares. I think a lot of pop music + music theory has misidentified the point of translation, if that makes sense? Using numerals and words to describe what's happening in a song is a compromise.
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 14:27 (nine years ago) link
It's not that it's too easy, it's just that it's not that interesting. Only when Marcello mentioned "Holiday" did it occur to me that that song is not in a major-key but in a minor-one, and contains the same denial-of-major-key-tonic as "Teenage Dream". But what does that say about Madonna-songwriter? or Madonna-cultural force? or me, if I wanted to write a song like Madonna's? I dunno.
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 14:30 (nine years ago) link
Though as an interesting note, there is a profession whose job it is to listen to newly-composed tracks for commercials and comment on their similarities to other tracks, the place-holder music, for example. That professional will then comment on what elements need to be changed-- usually getting quite specific, on a theory level, asking for a melody to go further upward or for reharmonizations. That professional will then be required to testify in court if any plagiarism charges are laid. I've only heard third-hand about this occupation actually being a thing, but man I've love to read a "my day at work" with one of them
My understanding is that most music theory and the music it loves to theorize about, both classical and jazz, still basically depends on the major/minor system. Whatever key you are playing in, whatever scale you've got going, sooner or later you are going to have a V7 chord, even if in your original scale the chord would have been v7 and you need to put in a leading tone. Modal jazz doesn't help either because there the harmony is static: you stay on the same scale for 24/32 bars and go up a half-step for 8 bars every once in while, that's it. Actual modal changes or cadences aren't talked about that much except for in that one book I linked to the other day, which actually has a list of "typical" Aeolian cadences and progressions, which includes something close to the GL progression.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 14:39 (nine years ago) link
Well I think for musicians "using numerals and words to describe what's happening in a song" is not merely a "compromise" but a useful tool for when you're playing with other musicians (if they happen to know the same notative language you know) and when you're writing a song and looking at your options. I think there's kind of an efficiency to knowing some kind of theory or other when writing music, as long as you don't treat it as prescriptive. You know, I liked the way x chord sounds here, but I need to think of a way to get back to the first chord of the A section, here are five ways I know of to do it, rather than just flailing around and playing random chords until something sounds good.
― james franco tur(oll)ing test (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 14:41 (nine years ago) link
(xp to self) Whenever chords can't be parsed in the usual manner they call it "non-functional harmony," which is kind of a catchall I guess. In one of those Rikki Rooksby books he uses John Barry as an example of somebody who came up with really original chord sequences. When Barry was in the service he took some kind of composition correspondence course with a guy name William Russo who had same interesting ways of thinking about music "out of the box." Topic for further research.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 14:53 (nine years ago) link
imo the activity that needs to be cultivated most in musicians and composers is the "translation of what you hear to your medium". You hear something and you can play it back, or you can write it down.
"Flailing around playing random chords" is just composing, it's the way Stravinsky did it, Messaien did it, Shostakovich did it. It's actually the way Bach did it too, it's not like he had Rameau around to tell him what he was doing. It's interesting to learn the trade via articles and classes but ultimately, well, for instance, I developed a taste for four-two chords-- a triad with the raised-7th in the bass-- I probably have the terminology wrong but fuck it, it's C# D F# A-- from hearing a Deerhoof song and saying "huh they put a C# in the bass of that D-major chord and it sounds flat, kind of like a Motown bass line but exaggerated". If there's gonna be any "learn the secrets" article, my consciousness dictates that it should say "put away your Guitar Player magazine and learn it by ear"
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 15:10 (nine years ago) link
*conscience, not consciousness
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 15:11 (nine years ago) link
Whenever chords can't be parsed in the usual manner they call it "non-functional harmony,"
There are whole systems of post-tonal analysis btw.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 15:16 (nine years ago) link
(I'll have a lot to say in response to fgti after I put together my counterpoint class!:P)
I'm all for learning by ear. I've never used tabs in my life fwiw. But you pick things up by ear faster when you have some kind of system for understanding the relationships between notes and chords, whether it's "formal" notated stuff or just knowing what shape something is on the guitar. It's certainly true that you can intuit your own version of "theory" by just doing a lot of close listening and struggling to match the sounds on the guitar. But it can help you recognize things more quickly if you know what a major triad first inversion is or what a flatted fifth sounds like over a dominant 7 chord. I also find knowing some theory particularly helpful on guitar, where "chord shapes" can get you in kind of a rut (as opposed to piano where it's equally easily to play almost any combination of notes).
― james franco tur(oll)ing test (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 15:22 (nine years ago) link
_Whenever chords can't be parsed in the usual manner they call it "non-functional harmony,"_There are whole systems of post-tonal analysis btw.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 15:23 (nine years ago) link
Hurting's last post completely otm.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 15:24 (nine years ago) link
the Gaga piece is really good btw.
― coops all on coops tbh (crüt), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 15:29 (nine years ago) link
Two 'quick' points:
i)This seems disingenuous, unless I'm misunderstanding it:
"Flailing around playing random chords" is just composing, it's the way Stravinsky did it, Messaien did it, Shostakovich did it. It's actually the way Bach did it too, it's not like he had Rameau around to tell him what he was doing.
Those first three composers all had world-class formal training. Messiaen was a theory professor. Surely Shostakovich had some theoretical understanding of how fugues were put together before he wrote 24 of them. Stravinsky must have been aware of serial methods before he used them, Messiaen knew what an octatonic scale was etc. I would think that Bach was aware of Renaissance principles of counterpoint, Zarlino's rules of dissonance, etc?
ii) I don't think that anyone has an objection to the cultivation of this skill:
This is essentially a description of traditional aural skills. But this informs theory and vice versa. Knowing what a IV-V-I progression is makes it easier to identify something by ear.
A simple fact is that different people learn better in different ways. Some musicians have a great ear, intuitively. (My impression is that you fall in this category?) I, for one, don't: ear training was always the hardest part for me. Grasping the logic of how things work in a formal/abstract sense (which came easily to me and not to others) is really useful for me to make sense of things. It did speed up the compositional process tremendously (as I think it does for most composers).
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 16:13 (nine years ago) link
And, again, I'm pretty sure you're aware of these things so maybe this is a devil's advocate sort of deal?
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 16:19 (nine years ago) link
Sund4r's last posts completely otm.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 16:32 (nine years ago) link
I see Hurting 2 already said part of what I was saying in ii).
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 16:36 (nine years ago) link
My version of what you two guys said might have been a little more defensive -moi? - so I'll just nod in agreement.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 16:39 (nine years ago) link
Assume by post-tonal Sund4r was talking about stuff like serialism and tone rows but I'll wait until counterpoint lesson is done to find out.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 17:07 (nine years ago) link
Only when Marcello mentioned "Holiday" did it occur to me that that song is not in a major-key but in a minor-one, and contains the same denial-of-major-key-tonic as "Teenage Dream". But what does that say about Madonna-songwriter? or Madonna-cultural force? or me, if I wanted to write a song like Madonna's? I dunno.
I think acknowledging that it's interesting can be separate from attempts to answer a lot of questions that require more information to answer.
― timellison, Tuesday, 1 April 2014 18:02 (nine years ago) link
lol "to answer" twice
Well it depends what you want to know I guess? I mean one person looking at a building might be more interested in the nitty-gritty engineering aspects of it while another might be more interested in the architectural presentation of it. You could probably say that Madonna is an artist whose "artist"ness is less about the harmonic structure of her music than, say, the Beatles, let alone Bach. There's nothing lesser about that kind of artistry imo, it's just primarily a different skillset and presentation. I mean, Madonna's songs still have harmonic and melodic structures that have to serve her purposes well, like any artist, and I don't think she would be what she is without that aspect, but Madonna the icon really dominates the music.
― james franco tur(oll)ing test (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 18:28 (nine years ago) link
BTW you know Deerhoof is the product of conservatory compositional education right? I always thought you could hear that in their harmonies -- I feel like certain kinds of harmonies just don't "occur" to most rock bands naturally.
― james franco tur(oll)ing test (Hurting 2), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 18:41 (nine years ago) link
I'm not saying that "learning how to do it" is useless, I'm saying that the important lesson to learn is to have that information internalized, the way we all visualize words instead of keystrokes. I picked those three composers because they (famously) had intuitive compositional techniques, both in practice as composers and in teaching as pedagogues. Nadia Boulanger, basically. The famous quote Schoenberg made about Stravinsky "you will always compose at the piano, some composers are like that". That "holistic"? method of teaching has at least been passed down from Boulanger to Corigliano to my teacher Kulesha, and to Glass, and to Copland; Babbitt (I've been told by two students) had attempted to hybridize that method with a more rigorous approach. And all these teachers will, sure, teach you how to write a fugue, teach you 12-tone technique, but only insofar as it suits your requirements as a composer.
Sure Bach heard Palestrina, but whether or not Bach had read Fux is kind of beside the point. I feel like in rock bands there are those have heard Neu! and like it and those who haven't or don't. But, I speak from a specific position of privilege as someone who took a course (and one of ignorance, as I'm only familiar with the classical school of thought, i.e. no jazz). Beyond Bach chorale, which is pretty amazing and applicable stuff to everything, I don't think any chord-to-chord knowledge is particularly useful. Better to play the fugues, unpack them intuitively. (Major exception: orchestration, for which you can never receive enough training.)
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 19:34 (nine years ago) link
Ha, OK, I think that's a little different from "flailing around playing random chords" but I have a better sense of where you're coming from now.
[Again, more tonight]
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 20:21 (nine years ago) link
where is the goodbye yellow brick road piece people are talking about?
― wk, Tuesday, 1 April 2014 21:23 (nine years ago) link
It's on Pitchfork, Jayson wrote it and it's beautiful. He says the bVI comes out of nowhere, and to my ears it doesn't, it's already been foreshadowed in the verse with the bVII-V mediant movement (the same relationship as I-bVI), but what does come out of nowhere is that m9 jump! (I feel like it's a chess move: m9!!) I... cannot think of any other songs that have a m9 jump, the only one off the top of my head that has any 9th is "December Will Be Magic Again"-- possibly inspired by Yellow Brick Road? she loves Elton John
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, 1 April 2014 23:16 (nine years ago) link
found it, thanks!
― wk, Tuesday, 1 April 2014 23:27 (nine years ago) link
"Day After Day" by Badfinger has nice 9th (not minor) jump on second line "Every day my MIND is wound around you"
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 00:08 (nine years ago) link
Spotify version of that tune is a rerecord and he couldn't hit the note!
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 00:43 (nine years ago) link
Boulanger to Corigliano to my teacher Kulesha
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 00:50 (nine years ago) link
Hey, Corigliano is at Lehman College. I wonder if he knows Rob Schneiderman from the other thread.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 00:51 (nine years ago) link
Aargh. Maybe I misremembered about about "Day After Day" maybe the 9th is in a different place or not there at all. I leave it to Tim.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 00:58 (nine years ago) link
Guitar solo/melody reiteration & embellishment maybe.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 01:05 (nine years ago) link
Better to play the fugues, unpack them intuitively.
So I'm going to be difficult: there is nothing at all wrong with this approach but why is it better (asks the theory prof who likes writing fugues but, um, doesn't play piano)?
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 01:30 (nine years ago) link
Hurting, you gotta buy that piano pronto. Too many guitar players of various stripes on this thread.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 01:43 (nine years ago) link
Wish I had the golden ears and fleet fingers of the Martian lutists of old that sang so sweetly, but given this lack it is nice have a little theoretical underpinning to help me think of things I might want to try to play so I don't have to thumb though the chord grimoire for new grips.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 02:41 (nine years ago) link
I mean, that Schoenberg quote needs to be read with the awareness that he was famously insecure about his inability to play the piano.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 02:59 (nine years ago) link
You come from this royal lineage of study, yet it seems like you are telling us not to worry about this stuff and just play. With all due respect, a careless reading of your posts might detect an aristocratic brush off : "Let them eat CAGED"
Good thing you're not reading them carelessly, then :) Kulesha is a great guy and I won't speak ill of him, but I learned more from attending a single Bang On A Can marathon than I did from four years in school.
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 03:43 (nine years ago) link
I thought what the Pitchfork writer meant was that the Bb minor chord comes out of nowhere. That's the pivot chord (a borrowed iv in the home key). That's, of course, where that minor ninth occurs.
― timellison, Wednesday, 2 April 2014 03:44 (nine years ago) link
xp So much of music learning both performance and composition is rooted in listening though, I can't really imagine what music school must be like now that Youtube exists and you can instantly call up a dozen performances of a Webern violin piece. I'd imagine music school has been improved dramatically just by being able to access this shit instead of having to sift through CDs in the library.
@ Tim oh is it a bb-minor? I thought it was a Db-major but I was "on recall" I don't have access to the track
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 03:48 (nine years ago) link
Db in the bass, but I think it's a Bb minor chord. It creates that great parallel with the ii-V-I, which you also already had in the home key.
― timellison, Wednesday, 2 April 2014 03:57 (nine years ago) link
Ha, you got CDs? Our library still used cassettes where I did undergrad. But yeah, Naxos Music Library does make a big difference, although I don't know that I'd say it's the main reason why music school has been improved dramatically.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 04:05 (nine years ago) link
Scores were all filed by card :) what a pain. Generally I'd just grab things at random and study them because actually finding anything was so difficult. It's impossible for me to gauge the comparative worth of "education" vs. "post-education" because everything got so great about six years ago.
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 04:14 (nine years ago) link
i'd love to hear a composition by a person who has never heard a note of music but knows everything about the rules of composition via notation. i'm guessing this has already been done with computers though
― coops all on coops tbh (crüt), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 05:50 (nine years ago) link
Aeolian Cadence blog has "Louie Louie" mentioned in its first section about the three chord trick but doesn't seem to point out that the chord is not V but a v with a minor third.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 11:32 (nine years ago) link
I've been thinking about this paragraph about Trout Mask Replica's wiki a lot the past couple days, with regards to what is imo the best-ever intersection of untrained compositional intuition + training in dictation:
Van Vliet used a piano—an instrument he had never played before—as his main compositional tool. Since he had no experience with the piano and no conventional musical knowledge at all, he was able to experiment with no preconceived ideas of musical form or structure. Beefheart sat at the piano until he found a rhythmic or melodic pattern that he liked. Mike Barnes compared this approach to John Cage's "maverick irreverence toward classical tradition".[11] John French then transcribed this pattern, typically only a measure or two long, into musical notation. After Beefheart was finished French would then piece these fragments together into compositions, reminiscent of the splicing together of disparate source material on Marker's tape. French decided which part would be played on which instrument and taught each player their part, although Van Vliet had final say over the ultimate shape of the product. Band member Bill Harkleroad has remarked on "how haphazardly the individual parts were done, worked on very surgically, stuck together, and then sculpted afterwards." Once completed each song was played in exactly the same way every time, eschewing the improvisation that typifies most popular music in favor of an approach more like a formal, classical composition. Guitarist Fred Frith noted that during this process "forces that usually emerge in improvisation are harnessed and made constant, repeatable."
I'd shrug at Frith and say that all composition is improvisation at the moment of conception, but otherwise.
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 12:55 (nine years ago) link
"Van Vliet used a piano—an instrument he had never played before—as his main compositional tool. Since he had no experience with the piano and no conventional musical knowledge at all, he was able to experiment with no preconceived ideas of musical form or structure."
IMO this is complete bullshit, it's the expressive fallacy.
― james franco tur(oll)ing test (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 13:45 (nine years ago) link
Complete bullshit? As in the opposite is true?
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 13:48 (nine years ago) link
There's no such thing as a grown man with "no preconceived ideas of musical form or structure"
― james franco tur(oll)ing test (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 13:53 (nine years ago) link
I agree with that, but I don't see how it makes the entire two sentences you've isolated "complete bullshit". I would not disagree if you said these two sentences are nothing more than a PR'd way of saying "Captain took peyote and banged on a piano".
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 14:31 (nine years ago) link
I have a friend who is completing a PhD in composition with an electroacoustic focus. As part of comprehensive exams in his program, students need to write code on the spot that will algorithmically generate music in a given 20th century style, e.g. "generate music in the style of Satie's Gymnopédies".
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 18:33 (nine years ago) link
Assume by post-tonal Sund4r was talking about stuff like serialism and tone rows
I'm referring to any Western art music that no longer follows CPP tonal and harmonic conventions. Serialism is one specific method. Pitch-class set theory is a more general system that is useful to analyse pitch organization in post-tonal music. (It is helpful with writing as well.) This is a good book (by a CUNY Graduate Center theorist) to learn the basics of it: http://books.google.ca/books/about/Introduction_to_post_tonal_theory.html?id=9WQJAQAAMAAJ
On a broader scale, it is helpful to understand sorts of pitch collections, harmonic structures, voice-leading patterns, etc that could be used. This is a pretty good introduction: http://www.pearsonhighered.com/educator/product/Materials-and-Techniques-of-PostTonal-Music/9780205794553.page
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 18:38 (nine years ago) link
(xxp)At least he didn't add "and utter" in the middle.
Kind of thought this thread would be a nuanced discussion of what kind of theoretical approaches people found more useful and which less useful. Saying the equivalent of "Musicians of the world, throw off your shackles and create!" is a noble statement but isn't necessarily useful in this context.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 18:41 (nine years ago) link
I just suggested some!
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 18:47 (nine years ago) link
Thanks, Sund4r, will take a look. Wasn't talking to you in my last post. Was still taking a dig a fgti. But he seems like a nice guy so should stop. For myself and I assume for Hurting, "theory" is usually taken in the context of Jazz studies which has build up a substantial body of literaturestudy aids over the years, from Berklee or the Jamey Aebersold play-a-long material to the Mark Levine Jazz Theory book. The problem is that this stuff ends up being kind of long-winded, there are more efficient ways to describe what you need to know. If one can describe it more concisely, there is still the need to practice, but the more organized your way of thinking about it is, the less painful it is. Never even thought about looking in depth into those kind of compositional techniques but am willing to read about that stuff if we can come to this thread for you to correct our misunderstandings between lesson plans;)
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 19:00 (nine years ago) link
actually I learned most of my jazz theory in bits in pieces directly from various teachers. FWIW I hate the Jamey Aebersold method, I think it's the bane of jazz and results in horrible, unmusical playing.
― james franco tur(oll)ing test (Hurting 2), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 19:07 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, I know I wasn't really recommending it, although some will. I guess my point is that if you just go about it naively you will just be doing Chord Scale Theory at its worst: "I see this chord symbol, I play that scale." A little more understanding gives you more choices. Two good things I've come upon in recent years are Mick Goodrick's The Advancing Guitarist and David Berkman's The Jazz Musician's Guide to Creative Practicing.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 2 April 2014 19:16 (nine years ago) link
Saying the equivalent of "Musicians of the world, throw off your shackles and create!" is a noble statement but isn't necessarily useful in this context.
I think it's a chicken/egg thing tbh. "How did s/he do that?" is a better usage for music theory than "learn these things now before creating" ime. People who ask me how they should go about learning how to get into scored music, basically, if they know chords and can read music, I tell them to pick their favourite piece of scored music and painstakingly recreate it in Sibelius. You learn how to use the program, you get used to the relationship between MIDI sound and real sound, you follow the composers thought process step at a time. Does that make sense? I'm not shitting on music theory in any way I just think it's important to recognize that it is reverse-engineering
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Thursday, 3 April 2014 00:48 (nine years ago) link
But trying to reverse engineer Captain Beefheart using any kind of music theory seems like a fool's errand. I look at him more as some kind of creative inspiration rather somebody who can be studied and imitated. I guess the way I think of him is that no matter how far out he got there was always his uncanny Howlin Wolf imitation to hang your hat on.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 3 April 2014 01:15 (nine years ago) link
Also seems to me that reverse engineering -which nobody is denying, Tim has been doing it all along with his Raspberries exegeses- is only one of the purposes a theory might have. Another is to allow you to compose an original, perhaps unorthodox music. Another is to allow you to train yourself to access the myriad notes available to you to improvise quickly in various styles and assess their insideness or outsideness.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 3 April 2014 01:42 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, writing generic pastiche chorales or inventions (which is essentially what you do in harmony and counterpoint classes) can help to train your compositional skills and craftsmanship in the way that playing scales helps to train your playing skills. It can actually strengthen your analytical ('reverse-engineering'?) abilities as well: having to write standard progressions and melodic lines helps you recognize them in pieces in the literature. And, besides, the majority of students in theory classes are not composers. People who play and conduct the repertoire also benefit from this understanding.
(I don't see how recreating a score in Sibelius is following the composer's thought process step by step btw, although I can see the value of the exercise: my compositional thought process is definitely not based on writing a completed piece bar-by-bar from start to finish.)
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 3 April 2014 01:51 (nine years ago) link
Beefheart's music isn't so far out that it resists analysis. It's a lot more structured and logical than people usually give it credit for, and it's basically built out of a bunch of blues riffs strung together along with a more expanded tonal ideas from free jazz. Analyzing his free blowing on the sax might be pointless but the overall compositions could be easily transcribed and understood. With some of the more dissonant tone clusters on a song like say Dali's Car it might not make sense to think of them as functioning in any kind of traditional harmonic sense but that's ok.
Knowing how it was composed helps understand it better as well and I think it would be just as easy to write a trout mask pastiche (of the composition, not necessarily the performances) as doing an exercise in a harmony class. I tried to learn a couple of trout mask songs on guitar years ago and some parts were pretty difficult to play but now I realize that of course they were playing in different tunings. I bet if you sat down and tried to play all of the trout mask riffs and melodies on a piano you would find little obvious patterns and shapes that he was using, similar to how the guitar parts probably would have made more sense to me if I had played them in the correct tunings.
― wk, Thursday, 3 April 2014 15:15 (nine years ago) link
xp to Ken: fwiw I know there are lots of people who use chord-scale theory very well, just for me it always seemed like a backwards way of learning to play jazz, almost like learning to cook by first memorizing a ridiculously elaborate system of relationships between ingredients and flavors without any guidance as to proportions, cooking techniques, etc. Of course I suppose you could, ideally, do both at the same time. The reason I hate the Aebersold books is because they pretty much just say "you play this scale over this chord," and then inexperienced musicians take them and just kind of meander around the notes of that scale over the chord with no thought given to voice-leading, what notes to play on strong vs weak beats, etc. There it's less a case of rules being bad for jazz improvisation, but more that the "rule" here does not do a good job of describing what actually "works," (or has worked, traditionally) and is kind of misleading without other guidance.
― james franco tur(oll)ing test (Hurting 2), Thursday, 3 April 2014 15:26 (nine years ago) link
The thing is I am generally more in the Owen camp on this stuff -- I have always been an intuitive and by-ear musician first, and when it came to jazz improv I always preferred to figure out what sounded good to me or what I wanted to hear, and then figure out how to make it happen. I found theory useful for that sometimes, either as "reverse engineering" or as a kind of shorthand to help me remember. It does also open options that you might not have already "heard" though, and I think it's good for that too as long as you maintain trust in your ear and don't play things solely because a book says you can/should.
― james franco tur(oll)ing test (Hurting 2), Thursday, 3 April 2014 15:34 (nine years ago) link
I wouldn't equate it to following the composer's thought process per se, but wasn't copying scores by hand a big part of the early musical education for a lot of common practice-era composers?
― L'Haim, to life (St3ve Go1db3rg), Thursday, 3 April 2014 16:42 (nine years ago) link
People who play and conduct the repertoire also benefit from this understanding.
A big truth and something I've been forgetting.
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Thursday, 3 April 2014 17:06 (nine years ago) link
I think it's good for that too as long as you maintain trust in your ear and don't play things solely because a book says you can/should.
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 3 April 2014 23:41 (nine years ago) link
When confronted with a theory one can:
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 April 2014 00:31 (nine years ago) link
Forgot:
― Teenage Idol With the Golden Head (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 April 2014 01:04 (nine years ago) link
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." -Bob MarleyYogi Berra
― Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 April 2014 02:03 (nine years ago) link
No idea whether this site is useful or not, just saw a link to it: http://it-www.teoria.com/
― Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 April 2014 13:05 (nine years ago) link
Think what I was trying to get to before the March of the Rubber Strawmen started was that learning theory by itself delivers diminishing returns if you don't have a way to incorporate it efficiently into you playing, should you so desire. The Mick Goodrick and David Berkman books were more "Creative Practice" books -the latter has this in the title- and starts of with a "Lighting Tour of Theory" to get it out of the way. I admire the self-professed "intuitive" musicians in this book, but aren't we all intuitive musicians when we start, well many of us, at least in the key of G, at least in first position. What about when you either need to learn something new or more likely, when the well runs dry? Owen is still young and on a roll and involved in all kinds of different creative situations, but Josh, in a few more years...
― Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 April 2014 13:42 (nine years ago) link
"Learn all your scales, then forget 'em all and just play." - Kurt VonnegutCharlie Parker
― Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 April 2014 13:49 (nine years ago) link
I definitely went through the "meandering through the notes" business when I took jazz improv in college. What I was unable to get to was the point of real thematic construction and elaboration.
― timellison, Friday, 4 April 2014 18:14 (nine years ago) link
i feel like i have totally different mindsets for 'theory' and 'making music', it's weird. like figuring out chords and melodies that work is the necessary evil that must be done so i can get to the fun part (texture, sounds, arrangement, sampling, rhythm, etc). and once i'm done with the raw material i have no idea what it is (note-wise) when i come back to it, it might as well have been written by someone else.
this is because i'm a dumb drummer who never had to really deal with harmonic stuff in years of practicing/playing, and only started writing to make electronic music.
― festival culture (Jordan), Friday, 4 April 2014 18:53 (nine years ago) link
Many largely passive or rote learning methods were highly favoured in the past. Some people do advocate this exercise, although I don't think it's a common practice at most institutions of higher education in the US or Canada today. I think it's useful to the same extent that typing Hamlet into MS Word is a useful exercise. In my undiplomatic opinion, analysis and model composition exercises engage more higher-order creative and critical thinking skills, allow for more meaningful feedback/evaluation, allow a student to produce something that is actually their work, AND probably get someone closer to understanding a composer's thought process. There's no reason why someone couldn't use Sibelius or Finale in the process. (It is required at some schools.)
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 5 April 2014 05:13 (nine years ago) link
I recommend this exercise because 95% of "composers" do not know how to use Sibelius/Finale at a rate that is required for any professional activity
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 5 April 2014 05:23 (nine years ago) link
probably get someone closer to understanding a composer's thought process
If this is truly your goal, though, you would probably want to do some biographical research.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 5 April 2014 05:24 (nine years ago) link
Well, yeah, it's a good way to learn notation software.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 5 April 2014 05:26 (nine years ago) link
There is nothing more important for "people looking to create scored music" than learning how to effectively and quickly use the software
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 5 April 2014 05:31 (nine years ago) link
Some professional composers who work at a high level still write scores by hand! But this (learning the software) was why I said I could see the value of the exercise. What I questioned originally was that it helped someone follow a composer's thought process.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 5 April 2014 05:36 (nine years ago) link
I... feel like you're being deliberately obtuse in saying that it might not? Dissecting the specifics of the orchestration? Forcing yourself to acknowledge and enter every bowing and "a2" or whatever? Seeing first hand how s/he's doubled the bassoon with a piccolo? How those wind-gestures are all c+p or how they are not and puzzling as to why? Or, if you're so inclined, hearing the specific relationship between "this portion of aleatoric notation and what it sounds like" and attempting to spell it out yourself and wondering if this aleatoric notation is useful? (or quarter-tone or whatever?)
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 5 April 2014 05:42 (nine years ago) link
I'm not saying that it couldn't (and someone would probably learn something if they typed out Hamlet too). I'm saying that imo if the goal is for someone to learn these things, analysis and model composition seem like more efficient and effective methods for the reasons I gave above.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 5 April 2014 05:54 (nine years ago) link
Erf, I've had a nightmarish airline experience over the last couple of days and might be overly grumpy, sorry. I'll revisit this tomorrow.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 5 April 2014 06:10 (nine years ago) link
And I disagree with you on this point and kick against that method of pedagogy. "Installing my set of keyboard shortcuts for Sibelius and teaching you how to use them" has far more practical usage than writing hauptschrifts on a score. We're not talking about "typing out Hamlet", it's more like "learning how to program in C"
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 5 April 2014 12:07 (nine years ago) link
And no need to apologize Sund4r you aren't coming off as grumpy at all, I hope I'm not either
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 5 April 2014 12:16 (nine years ago) link
You two guys seem to be behaving quite civilly and getting along just fine.
Discussion about software reminds me to ask Tim if he is still using MuseScore,
― Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 5 April 2014 13:34 (nine years ago) link
Random comments on skimming through the thread in the cold light of about a week later
Grove on musicology fwiw (they don't have a "music theory" article!):Misread this as "Groove on musicology." Didn't know if this was the name of a publication, a command, or a first person declaration with the subject missing.
Looking at that MTO rock issue- The "Jailhouse Rock" examples crashes Quicktime. "Gloria" video works though.
In the Guitar Voicings article, the author talks about an "embellishing chromatic mediant" while analyzing, among other things, a Jimi Hendrix tune. Now I think he is talking about a chord but when I first saw it I thought he meant the sharp 9/flat 3 that is added to a 7th chord to turn it into 'The Hendrix chord."
In the article on The Beatles and Voice Leading came across "Walter Everett’s Statement–Restatement–Departure–Conclusion (SRDC) phrase structure" which seems like a useful terminology.
― Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 5 April 2014 14:30 (nine years ago) link
Maybe one of you classical background guys can explain that I 6/4 stuff one day.
― Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 5 April 2014 17:14 (nine years ago) link
I 6/4? I-chord in 2nd inversion. The 6 and 4 refer to the intervals on top of the root note (i.e. G C E is a p4 from G to C, a +6 from G to E). This terminology is esp iseful in describing inversions of V7 or ii7 chords. For example V7 = G B D F, V65 = B D F G, V43 = D F G B, V42 = F G B D. Looks way more elegant when handwritten under Bach chorale :)
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 5 April 2014 18:45 (nine years ago) link
Thanks. Just came across this website which seems to a do a decent job of describing this stuff: http://spider.georgetowncollege.edu/music/burnette/MUS111/111i.htm
― Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 5 April 2014 19:03 (nine years ago) link
I have a feeling that we might be arguing about this for a while but
"Installing my set of keyboard shortcuts for Sibelius and teaching you how to use them" has far more practical usage than writing hauptschrifts on a score.
These are two different skillsets that have different uses.
We're not talking about "typing out Hamlet", it's more like "learning how to program in C"
I don't see that. Music notation software is more complicated than word processing software but Sibelius is not Max/MSP. Copying a score into notation software is still entry of information. ("Learning how to create a database in Excel" may be a better comparison than "typing out Hamlet, I'll grant, given that most people already know how to use Word.)
Species counterpoint and chorale harmonization, on the other hand, actually involve learning rule-governed systems and applying them to make decisions in order to generate results when given input, which comes closer to the logical processes used when writing a computer program. (I use that analogy all the time.) What I'll give you is that those skills are mainly applicable to CPP music and music that is closely related to it. If you are mainly teaching people to compose contemporary music (which most theory teachers are not), they very well may not be the most useful tools to use, although I don't see why other analysis and model composition tasks couldn't work tbh. (And, certainly, if someone has no clue how to use Sibelius well, recreating a score is a good way to learn it right off the bat.) But, I mean, obv, whatever works for you.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 5 April 2014 19:15 (nine years ago) link
JR&tB, it may be a good idea to check out a basic theory textbook to fill you in on classical terminology for these things: Benward/Saker, Clendinning/Marvin, Sarnecki, Kostka/Payne, ...
This is a quick simple explanation of chromatic mediants as they are most commonly used: http://learnmusictheory.net/PDFs/pdffiles/03-12-TypesOfMediantRelationships.pdf
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 5 April 2014 19:18 (nine years ago) link
Thanks. Wow, some of those texts kind of pricey. Is there one that is past its first blush and gone to Dover?
― Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 5 April 2014 19:32 (nine years ago) link
I don't know what that question means but, yeah, I was thinking that maybe you could check those out from a library if they are available. Sarnecki is affordable (and v good imo) but I don't know if that one is available in the US.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 5 April 2014 19:41 (nine years ago) link
Thanks. Sorry. In math and science, textbooks from a few generations ago are available at quite cheap prices from Dover Publications and are often just as useful as the shiny new official books.
― Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 5 April 2014 19:48 (nine years ago) link
I can't talk about this any more! Fundamentally Sund4r we're not going to ever agree because your paycheque involves teaching a course in counterpoint and my paycheque involves turning around an orchestral arrangement in four hours or less
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 5 April 2014 21:12 (nine years ago) link
Yep.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 5 April 2014 21:23 (nine years ago) link
(although it's kind of interesting that those two things would put us at odds on this)
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 5 April 2014 21:24 (nine years ago) link
It's not that I don't think that shit is interesting, obv I do. I guess... the reason I'm using phrases like "kicking against that form of pedagogy" is because I feel that the more successful new music scenes I've observed in the world are rooted in an absurd level of productivity, fun, social atmosphere. The Toronto scene in comparison, well, I never heard a work in five years there that I really loved, though talent was obviously on display. I intuitively feel, in observing my own tendencies, and observing the workings of other young composers, that getting caught up in the theory of what one-is-working-on is often an enormous stumbling block for finding one's natural writing voice, responding to current music
― poopsites attract (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 5 April 2014 21:43 (nine years ago) link
Just a bit of fundamentals, let's be cool
― Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 5 April 2014 23:51 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, Ken, I still use MuseScore. I've used Finale (years ago) and it seems similar. Pretty great for a free program, at least for how I've used it so far.
― timellison, Sunday, 6 April 2014 03:21 (nine years ago) link
Haven't used it in a while, may have some usage questions for you at some point.
Seems to me what Owen is saying is that he already has enough theory background to do what he is doing, further study at this point would only beget even more study, what he needs is practical stuff to help him execute faster and creative models to keep him inspired.
― Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 6 April 2014 13:17 (nine years ago) link
Anyway, would love to continue to discuses this esoterica at further length, but have to go see what can be done with my recalcitrant right hand.
― Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 6 April 2014 17:12 (nine years ago) link
o_O
― smhphony orchestra (crüt), Sunday, 6 April 2014 17:14 (nine years ago) link
Oh wait
― Tompall Tudor (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 6 April 2014 17:17 (nine years ago) link
OK wow @ this syllabus: https://sites.google.com/a/calarts.edu/counterpoint-mt-204/syllabus
I thought I was a hardass.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 13 April 2014 00:44 (nine years ago) link
.
― tl;dr5-49 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 13 April 2014 00:50 (nine years ago) link
He does mention Dover Publications early on, to balance out the "hideously expensive" texts.
― tl;dr5-49 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 13 April 2014 00:52 (nine years ago) link
Although I imagine if you took that course you would save money just by not having any time to spend it.
― tl;dr5-49 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 13 April 2014 00:53 (nine years ago) link
Ha, if you're really concerned about money, you can download those scores for free from IMSLP.
xpost lol
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 13 April 2014 00:55 (nine years ago) link
No Gradus in that course? Is that considered passé?
― tl;dr5-49 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 13 April 2014 01:30 (nine years ago) link
Tbh, I've never read it but I don't know of anyone who would use an 18th-century treatise to teach a counterpoint class in 2014. It seems more like something you'd read in a course on the history of music theory.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 13 April 2014 02:30 (nine years ago) link
B-b-but there are some 18th century compositions recommended for study in the course.
― tl;dr5-49 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 13 April 2014 11:56 (nine years ago) link
18th-century music is typically what we focus on in (tonal) counterpoint courses. However, I don't know of anyone who uses theoretical treatises that were written in the 18th century to teach about the contrapuntal techniques in this music, just as you would probably not read Newton in an undergraduate physics or calculus course. (My understanding was that Gradus is largely concerned with 16th-century counterpoint btw?) Ime, it is far more common to study 18th-century scores but to use modern texts on analysis and model composition.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 13 April 2014 12:48 (nine years ago) link
I mean, as I understand it, the modern texts all probably owe a lot to Fux; not arguing that.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 13 April 2014 12:53 (nine years ago) link
There's a pretty solid-looking ebook torrent atm, for those who are prone to such things.
― Trespassers William (dowd), Sunday, 13 April 2014 13:11 (nine years ago) link
Here is another question that you may or may not have thought about or care about or feel is within the framework of this thread. Every once in a while I've heard somebody pose the innocent question "How many scales are there?" How to answer. "Well I went through a pile of books and websites and took all those lists there and compiled them and removed them and came up with this number." ? Easy to ask hard to answer. But if you specify a little more think you can answer certain questions.
How many heptatonic (seven note) scales without any augmented seconds or chromatic cluster? 14, the seven modes of the major scale and the seven modes of the jazz melodic minor scale. How many heptatonic (seven note) scales allowing one augmented second, no chromatic clusters? 28, The two above plus the seven modes of harmonic minor plus the seven modes of harmonic major.
How many scales built by stacking three major thirds and four minor thirds in some order? Calculation gives the number 35, but there is a degenerate case so you can throw out those 7 and your back with the same four sets of seven as above.
Of course if you relax the restrictions you get a lot more, like this guy did: http://alexanderlafollett.com/site/modes-and-theory/
― tl;dr5-49 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 13 April 2014 13:27 (nine years ago) link
"you're back"
― tl;dr5-49 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 13 April 2014 13:28 (nine years ago) link
If you allow two augmented seconds you get the double harmonic major and other stuff.
The degenerate case mentioned above can possibly be thought of as leading to certain hexatonic and octatonic symmetric scales- whole tone, augmented, diminished.
― tl;dr5-49 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 13 April 2014 13:46 (nine years ago) link
18th-century music is typically what we focus on in (tonal) counterpoint courses.
This is actually one of the reasons why the CalArts syllabus seemed so striking to me. 16th-century, 18th-century, and 20th-century counterpoint are commonly covered in three different courses. Tbh, once I realized that he doesn't seem to give any sit-down written tests, might not actually mark all of those weekly assignments, and doesn't ask for any analysis outside of the two papers, the workload doesn't seem quite as extreme.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 02:24 (nine years ago) link
My understanding is that you play guitar, but not piano, really, is that correct, Sund4r? When you write your counterpoint exercises - or maybe I should say "wrote" since now you assign them for others to write- do you write them on piano for piano? Other instruments? Guitar as well?
― Lem E. Killdozer (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 02:31 (nine years ago) link
I write most of the examples/sample solutions that I use in class. Tbh, I mostly write on Sibelius for 'piano', as far as these go? (Since they're usually only played electronically, I guess I write on Sibelius for synthesized MIDI piano but write such that the material would playable?) As far as my own compositional work goes, yeah, I write for a variety of instruments.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 03:02 (nine years ago) link
Well on paper/on Sibelius.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 14:52 (nine years ago) link
You still use paper?
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 15:04 (nine years ago) link
Ha, well, yeah, I feel that Sibelius/Finale can lock me into a linear left-to-right, note-by-note way of working, when it can be more efficient to sketch out large-scale frameworks first. On tests, students do everything on paper.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 April 2014 15:33 (nine years ago) link
This paper says that even the members of Lynyrd Skynyrd themselves don't agree on the key of "Sweet Home Alabama" and cites some references: http://www.academia.edu/1435121/Triadic_Modal_and_Pentatonic_Patterns_in_Rock_Music
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 17 April 2014 15:31 (nine years ago) link
listen to the chord they end on though...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHsDa9_HSlA
― smhphony orchestra (crüt), Thursday, 17 April 2014 18:15 (nine years ago) link
Won't let me watch that YouTube. Wonder what key Merry Clayton thought it was in.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 17 April 2014 18:26 (nine years ago) link
Lots of music doesn't end on the tonic chord
― Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 17 April 2014 18:32 (nine years ago) link
That paper I linked seems reasonably accessible and useful, from what I have been able to read of it so far.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 17 April 2014 19:44 (nine years ago) link
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/5424776.htm
As for the story of Ed King playing his guitar solo in G, even though the song is in D, Kooper said, "IMHO, the song is in they key of D. Ed disagrees and says its in the key of G. We are both talking about the same finished recording. It is an opinion about an existing piece of music."
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 17 April 2014 19:52 (nine years ago) link
I am in the "G, obv" camp on this one but am pretty startled that Nicole Biamonte apparently disagrees with me and seems to be using voice-leading as an argument.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 01:29 (nine years ago) link
I always enjoy the final chord of "the song remains the same," which is in D. The guitar plays an A note and the vocal rounds out an F chord.
― calstars, Friday, 18 April 2014 01:35 (nine years ago) link
xpost I don't even really hear the melodic descent she's talking about in that note as being particularly significant in this song. The resting chord in the progression seems to be the G; the licks seem like straightforward G pentatonic stuff and don't really make sense to me in D Mixolydian; the melody mostly hangs on D but comes to rest on G, suggesting dominant-to-tonic motion.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 01:37 (nine years ago) link
It's no secret that musicians aren't always good analysts of their work btw.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 01:41 (nine years ago) link
although actually the story I heard before was that the band thought it was in G and the producer thought it was in D
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 01:42 (nine years ago) link
the melody mostly hangs on D but comes to rest on G
OK, well, it doesn't always really do this and I guess that's the source of the ambiguity.
Ha, I found an old conversation from some years back where I said I could hear it in D.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 01:55 (nine years ago) link
@ Sund4r I am amazed that anybody could possibly hear "Sweet Home Alabama" in anything other than D-mixo and the live video posted above sounds like somebody in the band exercised veto power of stupidity. Jot down the melody or the guitar riff and they are both 100% functional D-mixo melodies that show zero-allegiance to G. I wonder what key these guys heard "You Can't Always Get What You Want" in
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 18 April 2014 02:00 (nine years ago) link
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 02:04 (nine years ago) link
the guitar riff
Isn't this D5 (arpeggiated) - C5 (arpeggiated) - octaves on G - A-B-D-E-D-B-G?
That last lick seems like a really obvious G pentatonic line to me. I don't see how you could see zero allegiance to G. The vocal melody is what complicates things.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 02:11 (nine years ago) link
(I was with you on Daft Punk btw.)
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 02:13 (nine years ago) link
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 02:24 (nine years ago) link
OK. I just finally listened and I agree with Sund4r and crüt.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 02:26 (nine years ago) link
That is not a C5 though, it is a C9, the D is suspended over it. Is there a single F# that resolves to a G in this song? my memory recalls none. F#s always behave like the third of the I chord, not the third of a V chord
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 18 April 2014 02:28 (nine years ago) link
You never hear the C behaving like the IVth note of G either... it never creates a D7 chord. If the C9 was a C42 then I'd buy it but this is these are textbook modal cadences.
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 18 April 2014 02:31 (nine years ago) link
(Xpost) I am hearing the chords as landing on G. I don't understand argument that a melody could clearly be in D Mixolydian and have nothing at all to do with G- same set of notes, no, unless it kept landing on the note C where somebody said it was a G chord.
But I just read latest owen's latest post and I willing to consider it.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 02:33 (nine years ago) link
OK, I see his point. But I am used to hearing that cadence in a different harmonic rhythm - one bar of C, one bar of G, one bar of D.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 02:40 (nine years ago) link
Sorry I meant two bars of D
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 02:43 (nine years ago) link
I'm serious about "You Can't Always Get What You Want", that is another D-mixo song (I can't recall what key it is actually in but you know what I mean). No V-I cadences, the melody plays around with the exact same weighting and shapes, but clearly, clearly, mixolydian. No C-chords per se but C-naturals appear in the string outro
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 18 April 2014 02:47 (nine years ago) link
Sweet home Alabama is in d. It never really rests on g. The song is always itching to get back to d when it's on the g.
― Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Friday, 18 April 2014 03:09 (nine years ago) link
y'all are nuts!!
― smhphony orchestra (crüt), Friday, 18 April 2014 03:11 (nine years ago) link
That book none of you will ever read discusses this very problem here: http://books.google.com/books?id=K69vQY3RnZUC&pg=PA32&lpg=PA32&dq=%22jeff+brent%22+%22care+must+be+taken%22&source=bl&ots=NwbysDLMA5&sig=E0jVYJ-NZSB833IxWsoGJzjh_iM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=XZhQU6iNMaKT0QGW-IDQBA&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAA
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 03:15 (nine years ago) link
That book is my version of hell. Serious: jot down the melody and tell me how it behaves even remotely like it's in G-major
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 18 April 2014 03:25 (nine years ago) link
Find an example of a song with a V-VI-I progression where the melody begins on the VII and always falls
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 18 April 2014 03:26 (nine years ago) link
xp that is true. I'll concede that the melody sounds good over IV-V-I on D.
― smhphony orchestra (crüt), Friday, 18 April 2014 03:30 (nine years ago) link
Going to admit that I'm really exhausted and stressed tonight so may have been saying something knee-jerk. Should probably listen and think at a more lucid time.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 03:32 (nine years ago) link
We have a winner.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 03:36 (nine years ago) link
lol
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 03:40 (nine years ago) link
So now trying to think up other tunes that do this to firm up my feeble understanding. Let's turn to Revolver, aka The Mixolydian Album. Anything similar? First thing that comes to mind is "Taxman" which seems to be in the same key of D7 and have the same progression on the chorus.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 03:47 (nine years ago) link
Guess the I chord is the, um, Hendrix chord, which might confuse a bit.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 03:50 (nine years ago) link
I think "Sweet Home Alabama" trips me up because it's in the same key as "Werewolves of London" which is definitely V-IV-I on G. But "Sweet Home Alabama" is just your standard blues I-IV embellished by a bVII, I guess? I've definitely learned something important from this - thanks!!
― smhphony orchestra (crüt), Friday, 18 April 2014 04:15 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, thanks.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 04:42 (nine years ago) link
Trying to read that paper. She calls these changes or this cadence the "double-plagal progression" and gives lots of examples, including "Taxman" and "Sympathy For The Devil." Also refers to ideas in this paper http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.04.10.4/mto.04.10.4.w_everett.html
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 04:51 (nine years ago) link
Don't worry, Owen, we won't make you read any papers, just show us the light when we make a mistake.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 04:52 (nine years ago) link
Don't be shitty about it. I was not aware of Walter Everett's classifications but note that girl is referring to all the same examples I referred to off the top of my head upthread (Phrygian + "Army Of Me", Lydian + "Pretty Ballerina") but when she starts talking using phrases like "low-scoring" with regards to Beck songs I am thinking I am glad I don't write papers
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 18 April 2014 06:07 (nine years ago) link
Sorry, I was trying to be nice. I should have put a smiley or something.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 06:09 (nine years ago) link
Interesting that her other example of double-plagal is the outro to "Hey Jude" which, like "Sweet Home Alabama"-- if we are considering it as being in D-mixo-- has the vocal parts singing the tonic over the bVII and IV
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 18 April 2014 06:09 (nine years ago) link
real-naming reads as passive-aggressive, just saying :) real :) this is a good convo
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 18 April 2014 06:10 (nine years ago) link
Sorry, I actually felt bad about real name usage but have trouble remembering your screenname and hard to see on iPhone through zing touch.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 06:19 (nine years ago) link
What about the Birmingham "boo boo boo" line - F and C there. Not making it easier to classify the song as either in G or D though.
― calstars, Friday, 18 April 2014 06:31 (nine years ago) link
Got home finally and was able to relisten to "Sweet Home Alabama" AND: on the first chorus-first stanza there's an explosive C! chord there leading back to D, but more importantly is the secondary plagal cadence F-C-D (guitar line A-G-F#!) into the guitar solo which so decisively and obviously establishes D as the primary key centre-- this is your "boo boo boo", too, but F-E-D in the vocals--
But yeah, that second guitar solo is so clearly performed by somebody who is feeling G as the key centre that yeah my ears are confused, but at least the first guitarist and pianist are in accord
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 18 April 2014 06:56 (nine years ago) link
Also there's no A chord in the song - another bit of evidence for G
― calstars, Friday, 18 April 2014 11:47 (nine years ago) link
that second guitar solo is so clearly performed by somebody who is feeling G as the key centre
So I still don't think that it is a black/white, right/wrong situation. Even 'that girl' (who chairs the music theory area at what might be the country's top music school and edits theory journals) refers to it as an "ambiguous". I think there are elements that suggest a D centre and elements that suggest a G centre. In fact, the ambiguity is part of what makes the song interesting. When I said that musicians aren't always good analysts of their own work, I meant that they're not always good at describing or explaining it. I don't think you can really say, however, that the lead guitarist was wrong here or that the band was wrong in how they ended the song live. (I really don't think they were going for a cliffhanger 'half cadence' ending there.)
The vocal melody does point to D as a centre. However, I don't really agree that the riff in itself clearly suggests a different tonal centre than the "Werewolves of London" riff, even with a D suspended over the C. (It's not like most modern artists follow CPP voice-leading principles.) I think a lot of the lead guitar licks throughout the song are based on a G maj pentatonic scale. If I make an effort, I can hear it Hurting 2's way but my intuitive response to the guitars is to hear G as the resting place. The way the vocal line pulls away from this (imo) creates a kind of tension that makes this song interesting to me. It's a duck/rabbit thing: I don't think either view is wrong.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 13:38 (nine years ago) link
I was not aware of Walter Everett's classifications but note that girl is referring to all the same examples I referred to off the top of my head upthread (Phrygian + "Army Of Me", Lydian + "Pretty Ballerina")
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 13:50 (nine years ago) link
In conclusion, Skynyrd = Bartok.
Yell at me to go mark some exams if you see me on here again today.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 14:08 (nine years ago) link
I think the fact that they end this song in G on that live recording with a big G-establishing "yeaaaahhhhhhH!!!!!" says more about band dynamics than it does about the song's tonal centre.
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 18 April 2014 16:59 (nine years ago) link
Amazing thread
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Friday, 18 April 2014 17:18 (nine years ago) link
flam otm
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 17:19 (nine years ago) link
I think it's more that they end it in an unusual place. You're not used to hearing G occur at bar one (if you're counting it as four bars). Bar three, where it usually occurs, is a weaker place to end it, but there's a live Zevon youtube video where he ends "Werewolves" there.
― timellison, Friday, 18 April 2014 19:37 (nine years ago) link
(Or sorry flam, not that it's "more" about that, but that it's ALSO about that.)
― timellison, Friday, 18 April 2014 19:53 (nine years ago) link
That last lick seems like a really obvious G pentatonic line to me.
By starting on A, I hear it as an anticipation of the D chord.
― timellison, Friday, 18 April 2014 20:23 (nine years ago) link
big wheels keep on turning
― smhphony orchestra (crüt), Friday, 18 April 2014 20:40 (nine years ago) link
Believe I just heard a Phrygian tune, although a bit older than what was cited above.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 21:59 (nine years ago) link
Although there is a more modern tune with the same melody.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 22:10 (nine years ago) link
Assuming that the drummer was playing a standard backbeat with a snare hit on 2 and 4, I really think SHA should be counted as 2 beats of D, 2 of C, and 1 bar of G. This is also in keeping with the count-in on the recording. Only saying this to explain where I'm coming from with my bar/beat references:
It really seems like an accented passing note to me. A is a 16th note between two members of the G triad. (There's actually a G on the previous 16th note, the "a" of 2.) Every other accented pitch in that bar is a member of the G major triad. I don't see a suggestion that A has a stronger function in that bar.
What does it say? I looked at two other live clips from the 70s, both of which ended the same way. Why did they choose that chord?
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:05 (nine years ago) link
To piss off Al Kooper?
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:08 (nine years ago) link
And Hurting and flam?
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:09 (nine years ago) link
Phrygian tune was "O Sacred Heart Surrounded" aka "O Sacred Heart Now Wounded." Modern reuse of melody is Paul Simon's "American Tune."
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:12 (nine years ago) link
At this point I think I understand the arguments for D-Mixolydian and will cede that the original D-Mixolydian crowd has much better ears than I do (no sarcasm intended). But I think I agree with what Sund4r is trying to say, it is kind of ambiguous on some level. The circular chord progression is coming from inside the thread!
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:21 (nine years ago) link
It's much easier to hear, say, "Taxman," as in D because, for one thing, it stays on D for so long, and for another, the C and G come in a place where structurally one would expect a turnaround.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:35 (nine years ago) link
In any case, apparently you can't be a real music board without having a thread about this topic, it's some kind of law of the internet. http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=407446&highlight=sweet+home+alabama
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:43 (nine years ago) link
http://www2.gibson.com/News-Lifestyle/Features/en-us/Lynyrd-Skynyrds-Ed-King-913.aspx
No, that was the only solo I ever saw in a dream. And I saw both of ’em. And I pretty much play them note for note, even today, except one part I change. But I remember when I recorded that in Atlanta, like we recorded that song four days after we wrote it. And we were thinking about putting it on the first album because our first album wasn't even out yet, but Al Kooper wanted to save it for the second album. But Kooper argued with me the whole time I was there, saying "You're playing the solo in the wrong key." Because it starts on a D chord but it really resolves in G. It's really in the key of G. And he says "The solo should be in D." And he, unbeknownst to me, was telling the rest of the guys, "Look, we can't have this guy do the solo on the record."
You should also google Al Kooper's version in his memoir.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 18 April 2014 23:53 (nine years ago) link
In any case we've come a long way from when we argued over the modality of "Greensleeves." Or have we.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 00:16 (nine years ago) link
Forgot that I heard really old Phrygian tune the night before- "Pange Lingua."
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 02:04 (nine years ago) link
From "Surviving Ellington" in Francis Davis's Jazz And Its Discontents
...he was musically self-taught with an autodidact's scorn for formal education. Yet he saw to it that Mercer studied music at Juilliard, Columbia, and New York University. “I think it was his way of keeping up with advancements in music theory through me," Mercer speculates. "I remember one day he handed me two huge volumes and said 'Read these and tell me about them.' It was the Schillinger system and it took me three years to digest it. When I started to explain it to him, he cut me off. 'Oh, yeah, I was doing that back in 1928.' And truthfully, he had."
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 13:34 (nine years ago) link
.he was musically self-taught
If this is about Duke Ellington, I'm pretty sure this is false. Grove, Starr/Waterman, and this page from GWU all say that he received formal training on piano from approx the age of 7. The latter page also states that he took private lessons in harmony.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 19 April 2014 16:44 (nine years ago) link
Was wondering about that. Assumed it was a bit of an exaggeration. Basically read it as " did not attend conservatory." It's kind of the flip side of "classically trained" meaning "took one lesson from a Russian lady."
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 16:55 (nine years ago) link
But those private lessons he took were from a high school music teacher, not one of those tenure track positions you mentioned on the other thread.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 16:59 (nine years ago) link
On one of those old Phrygian tunes there is some discussion of the melody being clearly Phrygian but was it also harmonized in a Phrygian arrangement. Was hoping flam could elucidate. (Also if you don't like the name flam, we can try something different. )
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 17:17 (nine years ago) link
I don't really know what you're asking? "O Sacred Heart Now Wounded" is not Phrygian. Paul Simon doesn't Phryg it, he stays pretty faithful, even keeps Bach's delicious cadence to VI. A quick scan through alternate versions on Youtube shows some people who rest on the vi, but no massive re-interpretations.
http://www.mutopiaproject.org/ftp/BachJS/O_Haupt_voll_Blut/O_Haupt_voll_Blut-a4.pdf
I don't know "Pange Lingua"
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:24 (nine years ago) link
Hm. Version I was looking at had no accidentals and started and ended on the note E.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:30 (nine years ago) link
I guess Bach harmonized it tonally and that's the version we know and love now. Wonder how it got played in the first twelve decades of its existence.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:40 (nine years ago) link
Here's the same hymn respelled in C http://library.timelesstruths.org/music/O_Sacred_Head_Now_Wounded/pdf/
Melody does start and end on E, but Bach never harmonized that E as being the tonic. If you were to re-harmonize the melody you could make a Phrygian cadence on that third line (d-e), but not the last one, as far as I can tell-- it's been 15+ years since I did chorale and looking at this hymn again is amazing, Bach the Genius
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:40 (nine years ago) link
Hmmmm. I googled ways of resolving Phrygian-mode melodies and just realized there's an ambiguity in my last post, "Phrygian cadence" can refer to a IV6-V movement in chorale, despite having little to do with actual Phrygian mode aside from a similar harmonic colour
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:44 (nine years ago) link
To be precise, a Phrygian cadence is a half-cadence from iv[6]-V in a minor key (commonly with the soprano voice moving from ^4-^5, although this is not a necessity). The name comes because the bass motion (as well as the soprano motion if you have the ^4-^5 line) recalls melodic movement at a cadence in the Phrygian mode in Renaissance counterpoint.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:50 (nine years ago) link
I mean, you have to see ^5 as the final of the Phrygian mode.
A popular theory is that Bach chorales modulate so often because Bach was trying to harmonize modal hymn melodies with 18th-century functional harmony.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 19 April 2014 18:51 (nine years ago) link
Fascinating, look at the original Cruger harmonization, which originated many of Bach's moves, has a neat little bVII move that Bach'd remove but imply with a I7. See too the conclusion
http://www.kantoreiarchiv.de/archiv/a_cappella/motets/crueger/o_haupt/o_haupt_voll.pdf
Note too that the melody's penultimate note doesn't jump up to G in this version, this could totally be harmonized Phrygian-style
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:04 (nine years ago) link
THE STUNNING CONCLUSION
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:05 (nine years ago) link
a funny aside: I just received texts from P4trick St1ckles right now with photos of his guitar parts. He writes his riffs down pricksong style. "Imagine the last D major chord as the sort of arpeggio you would hear if you beat the End Boss in the castle dungeon. Obvi when the dots meet and spar it is Aeolian vs. Phrygian hot licks throwdown"
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:09 (nine years ago) link
Wait were prick-songs written in neumes or something else?
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:33 (nine years ago) link
Those texts remind me of some guitar blog I came across the other day in which the guy said "as the Dark Lord loving shredder that you are you should be thoroughly familiar with the harmonic minor by now."
Thinking of starting Richard Taruskin's magnum opus Oxford History of Western Music soon.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:39 (nine years ago) link
Guess neumes were out of fashion by then.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 19:46 (nine years ago) link
Meanwhile leafing through ancient copy of Donald Jay Grout I just found on the shelf.
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 20:06 (nine years ago) link
He Poos "Cloudbank."
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 20:20 (nine years ago) link
http://www.counterpunch.org/2010/01/15/histories-of-western-music-from-grout-to-kleinzahler/
― When I Get To The Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 19 April 2014 20:22 (nine years ago) link
Your Easter Sunday homework is to report on which mode this is in:http://images.zeno.org/Kunstwerke/I/big/HL70394a.jpg
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 20 April 2014 03:06 (nine years ago) link
crucifixolydian
― smhphony orchestra (crüt), Sunday, 20 April 2014 05:17 (nine years ago) link
Just heard SHA on car radio and saw the light. Now how about you?
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 16:26 (nine years ago) link
Does that mean that you strongly feel that it is in D now?
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 21 April 2014 16:42 (nine years ago) link
Not quite. Just messing really. Although there was a guy on the thread on the other borad I linked who played in Grateful Dead spinoff bands name Steve Kimock or something who had a pretty well-reasoned argument for D, in which he asked the musical question: "Instead of asking what key is the song in, I ask what key am I in?
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 18:31 (nine years ago) link
And I quote
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 18:32 (nine years ago) link
Still much easier for me to detect Mixolydian when they unequivocally hit you over the head with it, as in "Mama Told Me Not To Come" or certain James Brown grooves such as, I think, "I Can't Stand Myself (When You Touch Me)"
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 19:09 (nine years ago) link
Meanwhile got the first two volumes of Taruskin's Oxford History of Western Music. Will report back with any questions.
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 19:21 (nine years ago) link
Lots of CCR songs are Mixolydian too, I think. There are certain swampy funky grooves it works well with.
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 19:35 (nine years ago) link
Hear it much more clearly on "Fortunate Son," for example, than on SHA.
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 19:53 (nine years ago) link
Face it, Mixolydian scale sounds more bluesy and Major scale is more country so...
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 19:58 (nine years ago) link
Plus the solo came to the guy in a dream!
"Sweet Child o' Mine" is my go-to rock example for the Mixolydian mode.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 21 April 2014 20:19 (nine years ago) link
(The intro and verses anyway. You actually get a V chord in the chorus.)
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 21 April 2014 20:21 (nine years ago) link
tbh pentatonic major probably signifies stereotypical old-time Country than full-on Ionian. Tons of exceptions no doubt.
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 20:34 (nine years ago) link
depends on what country song you're talking about. folk songs, parlor music, blues, swing, boogie-woogie, and other idioms all fed into country/hillbilly music and they all had different melodic inflections. i dunno if it's practical to speak about country music in the first half of the 20th century in modal terms.
― smhphony orchestra (crüt), Monday, 21 April 2014 21:00 (nine years ago) link
Though if someone wants to do an indepth analysis of this song I'd love to hear it just because I like this song & I'm bored & not near a piano at the moment. I know there's a raised fourth right outta the gate. Also I like that there's a picture of a CD-R containing only this song.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsn6P4SDLLg
― smhphony orchestra (crüt), Monday, 21 April 2014 21:07 (nine years ago) link
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 21:14 (nine years ago) link
Country music considered chronologically was a much bigger tent then some might realize, as I learned when I recently read Creating Country Music: Manufacturing Authenticity, which I never tire of flacking. Do you know that book, crüt?
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 21 April 2014 21:46 (nine years ago) link
The Floyd Tillman song sounds, analytically, straightforward to my ears, crüt. The auxiliary raised-fourth (in this case coupled with a raised-second) is such common example of chromaticism that I'm sure there's a name for it, see the famous Beethoven minuet. All the stanky details in this recording are the product of the individual players all imposing their own varying degrees of chromatic inflection, the dissonance created by the slide guitar moving step-wise upward from IV to V is pretty intense. There's gotta be a name for this kind of stuff in country music. Love the add6 on the last chord
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Monday, 21 April 2014 22:20 (nine years ago) link
Flam's last post has reminded of the original reason for the recent revive as well as helping me address some actual musical confusion I've been dealing with recently. Will post more later hopefully, right now need to answer Sund4r on the other thread plus I am watching Hairspray, which may figure in as well.
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 02:37 (nine years ago) link
Specific thing: Certain Northeastern Brazilian styles such as the baião are known for using the Lydian mode. Two things. One: cheap, poor man's way to get a Lydian sound is to just play major triad shape and then move it up a whole step and play it again. Second thing: it's not really Lydian. How is it not? First way it is not quite Lydian is that it is Lydian Dominant. Second way is more confusing. In fact I heard some kind of explanation that somebody either heard it wrong or Luiz Gonzaga played the sharp four by accident(!) or his instrument was out of tune or busted. But...
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 04:21 (nine years ago) link
Flam's discussion of different people bringing their own approach to chromatic made me think more about what the heck was going on in the baião. A little judicious googling came up with the idea that the mode is not just Lydian Dominant, it is a combination of Lydian Dominant, Mixolydian, and Dorian, some kind of synthetic, über mode. In fact, there was a piece I had been trying to play that was exactly that and it was driving me crazy. Note that the way it worked it wasn't that the extra notes were used as passing tones, just that in different sections or different bars or different half-measures the fourth goes back and forth from sharp to natural or the third goes back and fourth from major to minor.
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 04:29 (nine years ago) link
Maybe if I had fleeter fingers or a better ear or a satisfied mind I would have just accepted these flipping thirds and fourths and moved on, but I couldn't and it was really affecting my ability to memorize the piece. Also, felt like in some sense it was my punishment, if you will, for too much time playing in the lower positions and not shifting, and liking to be in one 'macroharmony,' as it were, for a longer period than is allotted at faster tempos or with more busy chord changes. On the other hand, if I had been born into the style, I wouldn't have to ask questions I would just know, but unfortunately I don't have that luxury. But now I have a name, 'escala nordestina' which is enough for now. At this stage I don't need some kind of Euclidean axiom proof of something ('alpha' theory) just a name to tag it with and a pigeonhole to put it in ('beta' theory)
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 04:40 (nine years ago) link
Back to the general theme of the revive. In jazz, you are frequently given a set of chord changes and asked to improvise over them. You can play the chord tones on the appropriate beats but then what scale tones (assuming you've chosen an appropriate scale) or chromatic tones do you play in between? There is some balance to be struck between playing scalar and playing chromatically. Too scalar and it might be boring, too chromatic and it ends up sounding like what one Berklee instructor (Bob Pilkington?) calls "the drunken line."
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 04:53 (nine years ago) link
As far as the scales you choose you can get a lot of mileage out of the more neutral scales, especially if you are playing bass:) If you want to get beyond and use some slightly more exotic scales then maybe you've got to do more work. The reason Hurting (no real names on the theory thread when screennames are available) disapproves of a certain kind of paint-by-numbers pick-a-scale-any-scale approach is that presumably the players aren't really listening to the others in the ensemble or even to themselves.
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 05:02 (nine years ago) link
( running out of road. See what the subconscious mind sorts out overnight )
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 05:09 (nine years ago) link
(Tom, delete the Rolling Music Theory Thread now please)
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 05:36 (nine years ago) link
(One man's scale choice is another man's chromaticism)
― Kid Creole Meets Señor Coconut at a fIREHOSE Show (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 05:48 (nine years ago) link
lolbaião please
― "got ye!" (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, 22 April 2014 09:32 (nine years ago) link
Haven't caught up with recent posts but I kind of wish I were going to this:http://www.mtmw.org/docs/MTMW_program_2014.pdf
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 23 April 2014 22:51 (nine years ago) link
I wish you were too.
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 23 April 2014 23:11 (nine years ago) link
If the geirfiddler could see you now!
How many heptatonic (seven note) scales allowing one augmented second, no chromatic clusters?Spoke too soon. Just looked at some Jimmy Wyble etudes that are way over more head and they use a seven-note scale which is basically a diminished scale with a note deleted. The augmented second is not contained in a perfect fourth which makes it more out sounding.
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 23 April 2014 23:21 (nine years ago) link
didn't explain that well, didn't say that right, try again. Augmented second is not bracketed by two half steps. One of the thirds ends up being a perfect fourth!
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 23 April 2014 23:24 (nine years ago) link
One of my jazz school classmates used to say that he hated when people improve using the whole tone scale because it sounded like a cartoon character who just got bonked over the head.
― Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 24 April 2014 00:16 (nine years ago) link
*improv
There was a guitar player in this weird band in Austin back in the day who almost always played whole tone scales-his name was the same as one of the top sixties studio drummers- but I was too busy being creped out by the borderline offensive wardrobe of his bandmembers to notice.
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 24 April 2014 03:02 (nine years ago) link
My advisor advised me against writing with it (at least straightforwardly) because everyone has already heard Bartok and Debussy. Worked when Crimson did it, though.
Why would you not want to sound like a cartoon who just got bonked over the head??
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 24 April 2014 03:19 (nine years ago) link
A fair question.
For me it actually most evokes Monk, who does kinda sound like a bonked cartoon in the best way possible.
― Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 24 April 2014 03:20 (nine years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSoQ9Augp0Q
― Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 24 April 2014 03:21 (nine years ago) link
In the Mick Goodrick book he says something about the symmetric scales not having "handles."
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 24 April 2014 03:51 (nine years ago) link
The riff to Born on the Bayou is mixolydian, isn't it? Just a b7th within a major scale?
― calstars, Thursday, 24 April 2014 16:16 (nine years ago) link
Yup. Sweet Home Alabama is the same chord progression just spaced differently. The C - G functions the same way in SHA that the D - A does in Born on the Bayou.
― Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 24 April 2014 16:31 (nine years ago) link
just spaced differently
Just a little.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 24 April 2014 17:54 (nine years ago) link
When I-bVII-IV and V-IV-I are both common progressions, I don't think it's obvious that the progressions are functioning the same way in these two songs, given how fundamentally different the weighting and phrasing are. (As mentioned above, "Werewolves of London" is a V-IV-I song with a similar harmonic rhythm to SHA.)
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 24 April 2014 18:48 (nine years ago) link
I could argue that Werewolves of London is in D too. The only thing that keeps this from being obvious to me is that the vocal melody hovers around the G so much.
― Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 24 April 2014 19:09 (nine years ago) link
When you always have the D on a strong measure and the G on a weak measure (Werewolves, SHA) it's hard for me to hear it in G.
― Doritos Loco Parentis (Hurting 2), Thursday, 24 April 2014 19:10 (nine years ago) link
Think this one is almost done to death. May be time to move on to study the Andalusian cadence.
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 24 April 2014 19:44 (nine years ago) link
Meanwhile:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaQzQAlNn4&feature=kp
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 April 2014 03:24 (nine years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy0urWBt5e8"Tim. Help me out, Tim"
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 April 2014 03:37 (nine years ago) link
http://www.guitarplayer.com/miscellaneous/1139/under-investigation-the-soulful-guitarists-of-james-brown/23315
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 April 2014 03:38 (nine years ago) link
"Scalar Shift in Popular Music," by David Temperley featuring the Supermode and a cameo by our favorite chord progression: http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.11.17.4/mto.11.17.4.temperley.html
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 April 2014 03:42 (nine years ago) link
Something to read over the weekend: http://theory.esm.rochester.edu/rock_corpus/2011_paper/declercq_temperley_2011.pdf
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 April 2014 03:45 (nine years ago) link
Full website for that: http://theory.esm.rochester.edu/rock_corpus/index.html
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 April 2014 03:48 (nine years ago) link
Maybe you should just read this guy's blog post about it first: http://www.ethanhein.com/wp/2013/toward-a-better-music-theory/. Feel like I read it a few months ago, but not in the context of this thread.
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 April 2014 03:51 (nine years ago) link
One more:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOzaVpgeHJg
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 April 2014 04:34 (nine years ago) link
Realize in the cold light of day that I was using Mixolydian in the very broad sense of "static elaboration of a seventh chord, often including blue notes and passing tones, especially the sharp nine but even sometimes the major seventh, as in the James Brown example" as opposed to the other meaning which apparently is "a piece of music which, upon inspection of the harmonic and melodic elements, turns out to use the scale tones of the Mixolydian mode."
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 April 2014 11:42 (nine years ago) link
NB to classical conservatory-trained musicians, Canadian or otherwise: "seventh chord" without any qualification is usually assumed to mean "dominant seventh" in many circles/smiley /Wikipedia /smiley
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 April 2014 16:51 (nine years ago) link
Lol.
Temperley wrote a whole article about the cadential IV in rock: http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.11.17.1/mto.11.17.1.temperley.html
His work is interesting. That Ethan Hein blog post and this one annoy the heck out of me unless I think of them as undergrad reflection papers, in which case I'd probably give him an A-.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 25 April 2014 17:05 (nine years ago) link
Like Sponge Bob and Squidward fine, but that image grab was a missed opportunity to post Biz_Mozart.jpg.
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 April 2014 17:12 (nine years ago) link
I've got to point 2.4 in the "Scalar Shift" article and am not sure that Temperley has said anything very interesting yet. I have basically no jazz theory background but even I know that bVII can be a substitute for dominant harmony. His 'supermode' is basically the major scale + standard modal mixture.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 25 April 2014 17:53 (nine years ago) link
B-b-but the name is so much catchier.
― Kilgore Haggard Replica (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 April 2014 18:07 (nine years ago) link
I'm burning out on this topic but last night I went to to library out got a copy of What to Listen for in Rock: A Stylistic Analysis, by Ken Stephenson, and the initial chapters I read on the subway this morning were pretty good.
Also, new screenname.
― Choogle Plus (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 26 April 2014 00:40 (nine years ago) link
First chapter, "Phrase Rhythm" is a keeper.
― Choogle Plus (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 26 April 2014 05:44 (nine years ago) link
Love to hang around and discuss modal cadences in the Renaissance and Rock, Common Practice and Post-Tonal strategies in Classical, but right now I've got to put my Jazz D-hat on.
― Choogle Plus (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 26 April 2014 22:00 (nine years ago) link
When you come back, I'm interested to know what you like about the Stephenson book. That "Scalar Shift" article really made me start asking these questions again:
it's not always entirely clear to me what the ultimate goal or purpose is with a lot of academic analysis of popular music, aside from sheer scholarly interest (and lines on the CV, ha). With guitar mags, it's usually clear that the articles are there for people to learn specific techniques from. With the analysis of art music, it's easy for me to see how the work is useful for people who want to compose and/or play art music (who are the usual audience for these journals). While I still disagree with him that Radiohead (or, say, "Close to the Edge") is too easy to parse for someone with art music training, it's not 100% clear to me what the readers are going to gain from the exercise: it does not seem that this is going to have the direct benefit of helping (most) people learn how to write and play rock music.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 26 April 2014 23:02 (nine years ago) link
Like, the very recent phenomenon where classically trained musicians with PhDs in music theory seem to be writing about pop music for each other as often as they write about art music IS kind of curious.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 26 April 2014 23:12 (nine years ago) link
(Still wearing the D-hat. Will answer later)
― Choogle Plus (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 27 April 2014 03:02 (nine years ago) link
Will see if you can answer you in the morrow.
― Bee Traven Thousand (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 27 April 2014 05:29 (nine years ago) link
I'm afraid it is going to take me longer than I thought to answer your question and I am not even sure I am the one to do so.
― Bee Traven Thousand (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:12 (nine years ago) link
Ha, I mean, you're probably the only person who can answer the question "what do you like about the book?" But yeah, it's totally all good. I'll keep an eye out.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 01:52 (nine years ago) link
Oh wait. I thought I was going to have to answer all your other questions:) It's going to take me a while to read that book, there's some stuff that seems interesting I'm not quite getting and don't have a lot of time to focus on it right now. I'll let you know if and when I get somewhere.
― Bee Traven Thousand (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 02:01 (nine years ago) link
Oh, no, the rest of those questions are ones that I am trying to work out for myself.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 02:24 (nine years ago) link
Finally figured that out this evening:)
― Bee Traven Thousand (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 04:00 (nine years ago) link
Instead of trying to give you a comprehensive review of that book maybe I will drop in now and then with a short post about what I think he is trying to get at at certain points.
― Bee Traven Thousand (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 29 April 2014 04:05 (nine years ago) link
Going to have to return that book to the library since someone else -a reader of this thread? - has requested it, so I have to see how far I can get and give you some idea about what's going on.
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 18 May 2014 22:12 (nine years ago) link
I guess just about forty days and forty nights have passed since the last big thread revival.
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 1 June 2014 16:43 (nine years ago) link
So what did I get out of that Ken Stephenson book, what I was able to read of it?
The big takeaway is that in the music under discussion there is not one clear cut resolution point- the rhythm, the harmonic cadence and the melody may not all resolve on the last bar of a phrase but instead, point to the next phrase. It is a kind of perpetual motion machine, always pulling itself forward. This is why, according to Stephenson, the fadeout is such a popular ending, there is no natural place to end. In a live setting, of course, the band may have to choose a chord and end on it.
By the same token he says that using the cadence to determine the key is like putting the cart before the horse. Instead, he starts by citing the following remark by David Butler: "Any tone will suffice as a perceptual anchor - a tonal center - until a better candidate defeats it." To determine the key, one should listen to the opening triad, and see if it consistently appears at the beginning of phrases, if it is, you are probably done. Also one should listen for a perfect fourth or fifth repeating in the melody. If this occurs these, notes are probably the root and fifth of the tonic chord.
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 1 June 2014 16:59 (nine years ago) link
There is an interesting discussion in the first chapter about different types of phrase structures which he classifies as
The 2 + 2 model applies to something like "Roll Over Beethoven," two bars of singing, two bars of restThe 1 +1 model applies to something with a kind of blues call and response, singing in the first bar, which is answered by singing in the second bar- "They call it Stormy Monday... but Tuesday's just as bad."In the extension-overlap model, the end of one phrase extends into and overlaps the beginning of the next phrase. So, if the phrase length (or "hypermeter") is four bars, the phrase extends into the fifth bar.The first-downbeat model is something where there is a very short melodic bit at the beginning of the phrase followed by a period of rest, such as "Hey Jude."The elision model applies to something where some measures are omitted in order for phrases to work out right.
Here is a review of the book: http://faculty-web.at.northwestern.edu/music/gjerdingen/Papers/PubReviews/Stephenson.pdfThere is also a useful recap of some of the material about phrases in the third chapter of Song Mens: Analysing and interpreting Recorded Popular Song, by Allan F. Moore.The overlap model
There is also an attempt to describe the choice of notes, the palette as it were. Instead of being drawn from triads of one particular tonality, they might be derived some other way- all major triads with roots based on some scale, such as the natural minor scale for example. As Sund4r pointed out upthread, not clear how this kind of thinking improves on the concept of the Modal Mix.
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 1 June 2014 17:18 (nine years ago) link
Hm. Bullet points make space go missing in regular zing screen after "The elision model" but space is there if you click through to single post.
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 1 June 2014 17:49 (nine years ago) link
That Butler quote led me to the following interesting and relevant paper, which also cites it, on Schoenberg and the Church Modes. http://symposium.music.org/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=2103:schoenberg-on-the-modes-characteristics-substitutes-and-tonal-orientation&Itemid=124
PS The author is a Canadian academic, full professor at the University of Ottawa.
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 1 June 2014 18:44 (nine years ago) link
Meant to type "psst" instead of PS
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 1 June 2014 18:48 (nine years ago) link
model applies to something with a kind of blues call and response, singing in the first bar, which is answered by singing in the second bar
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 1 June 2014 19:02 (nine years ago) link
Anyway, a little of this stuff goes a long way. Maybe more interested in going back to the Tim approach on this thread. Was just trying to figure out the chords to "Superstar" from the Mad Dogs and Englishman version with "the young delta lady" Rita Coolidge on vocals, Leon Russell on piano and his Oklahoma buddy the great Carl Radle on bass. It's pretty clearly in F minor, with a descending bass line. After I got an idea I checked against some of the tab apps and they had usually had the bass note as the root of the chord, and using the misleading enharmonic ( spellcheck suggested some bizarre alternative- enharmoomic!) - D# for E-flat. Anyway think the first four bars after whatever intro are:| F-min | F-min /Eb | Db | Ab/C |
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 1 June 2014 22:57 (nine years ago) link
Then I guess it goes| Bb-min | Db | C | C |
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 1 June 2014 23:13 (nine years ago) link
That's a song where the lyrical material informs the key choice, imo, as bizarre as it seems. Compare to "The Look Of Love", which similarly begins in minor but modulates to its relative major for the choruses. Both songs begin with clear V-i progressions in the intro, establishing without-a-doubt that the verses are minor key. "The Look Of Love" cadences more heavily (and eventually concedes) to the relative major, but "Superstar" does not. But really it's about feeling the lyrical material, and understanding the complete intention of the composition; naysayers can only look to "When I Am Laid In Earth" for similar Glen or Glenda flip-floppiness, the subtle ambiguities are made less subtle by the libretto.
― flamboyant goon tie included, Sunday, 1 June 2014 23:42 (nine years ago) link
(Xp)Tab cross check seems to think a Cmin before the C but I don't hear it.
Before the chorus last chord is Ab, since it is going to Db, the relative major. Then the chorus speeds up the descent, going down from Db to the Ab
|Db Ab/C Bbmin | Ab | Ab |
Repeats a few times and finally hits a Gb, the bVII of Ab which starts our favorite cadence Gb Db Ab.
Wait flam seems to say it doesn't go to the relative major. I guess it is going to the chord of the relative major Db, but it is really leading to the Ab, the bIII
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 1 June 2014 23:45 (nine years ago) link
In any case was just listening to the Delaney and Bonnie version for the last.
That's a song where the lyrical material informs the key choice, imo, as bizarre as it seems
And here is a paper that discusses that very thing, among lots of other things it discusses: http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.02.8.4/mto.02.8.4.holm-hudson.html
See items 52-54 in particular. Not that I wouldn't have taken your word for it:)
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 1 June 2014 23:50 (nine years ago) link
As for your earlier posts, I had longer thoughts when I first read them but basically,
- fade-outs are a functional concern rather than a compositional one. Fade-outs were originally implemented so people didn't have to hear the sound of sequencers being flipped off.- the delineation of different melody structures is interesting, but ultimately I start to feel hierarchies coming into play, as my favourite melodies (i.e. Nina Simone "Do What You Gotta Do") being either not-included in these models, and I'm not going to think about what that says about Bo Diddley melodies vs. Nina Simone melodies- the relay-race idea of prolonging a melody over the end of the sequence, that is very cool, and would be something worth pointing out
David Butler's quote, I dunno, I think it's cooler to ensconce in the caveat of "I hear it this way" and accept that you might be incorrect, rather than say "well it begins this way" and then assume that the first four bars are meant to define the harmonic structure of the piece
xp reading the paper now, awesome!
― flamboyant goon tie included, Sunday, 1 June 2014 23:51 (nine years ago) link
Can I just sayHow happy I am to be reading an academic paper about The Carpenters right now
― flamboyant goon tie included, Sunday, 1 June 2014 23:56 (nine years ago) link
Oh no it's using the 80s and 90s revisionist mixes as text
― flamboyant goon tie included, Sunday, 1 June 2014 23:58 (nine years ago) link
Think the David Butler quote is usually interpreted as meaning all things being equal, the first chord and first note is the tonic. Unless of course the second or third are. Bet on the favorite.
Don't mind hierarchies if they are meant as "this is how to explain a lot of stuff with a few words but doesn't explain everything."
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 2 June 2014 00:01 (nine years ago) link
Wish he'd had the later knowledge of Thurston being a full-blooded asshole to put his performance of "Superstar" into contemporary context
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 2 June 2014 00:02 (nine years ago) link
His harmonic breakdown is immaculate, though, a Kevin lecture? would attend
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 2 June 2014 00:04 (nine years ago) link
Off topic but "Superstar" is sub a great track, as is the rest of Mad Dogs
― calstars, Monday, 2 June 2014 00:08 (nine years ago) link
"is sub a great track" = not good? I dunno I am recalling the song from memory and it is a great track, but I've never heard of "Mad Dogs"
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 2 June 2014 00:20 (nine years ago) link
Assume he meant "such a great track" but as an intranetz typo it's a keeper.
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 2 June 2014 00:24 (nine years ago) link
I are an idiot: Ab is the relative major of F-minor.
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 2 June 2014 00:26 (nine years ago) link
I have a direction problem: up a third, down a third, whatever.
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 2 June 2014 00:28 (nine years ago) link
"A major goes down to see his miner friend"
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 2 June 2014 00:30 (nine years ago) link
!
Another directional problem: had trouble hearing the Bb minor chord, perhaps because mind was confused that the bass note is still descending but the chords are on their way back up.
And another paper about the Carpenters and this song in particular , or vice versa: http://www.popular-musicology-online.com/issues/05/jarman-ivens-01.html
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 2 June 2014 00:33 (nine years ago) link
- fade-outs are a functional concern rather than a compositional one. Fade-outs were originally implemented so people didn't have to hear the sound of sequencers being flipped off.
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 2 June 2014 00:42 (nine years ago) link
Do you have mnemonics for the other keys? All I could find was "Father Charles Goes Down and Ends in Battle" for the circle of fifths which I had never seen before.
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 2 June 2014 00:44 (nine years ago) link
Joe Cocker's Mad Dogs and Englishmen is one of the great double live classic rock albums- for some the only one, although I don't think it gets much love around here. The band is filled with great musicians such as the two Jims, Gordon and Keltner, on drums, many of whom had been with Delaney and Bonnie earlier, such as the aforementioned Carl Radle and especially Leon Russell, who was in the Shindig house band with Delaney and co-wrote "Superstar" with Bonnie. George Harrison, who briefly was in Delaney and Bonnie and Friends, as it was called, would also use these musicians, in the recording of All Things Must Pass and for The Concert for Bangaldesh. Eric Clapton, who was part of the "Friends" for longer performed with them as well, particularly in Derek & The Dominoes.
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 2 June 2014 01:11 (nine years ago) link
The Concert for Bangaldesh is sub a good movie.
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 2 June 2014 01:14 (nine years ago) link
Shoutout to Canadian band KLAATU on that last link.
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 2 June 2014 02:03 (nine years ago) link
Wonder if Tim is ever coming back to this thread.
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 2 June 2014 02:56 (nine years ago) link
Funny, I just figured out how to play "Superstar" a few months ago. Hear the second chord as an Ab triad in second inversion.
― timellison, Monday, 2 June 2014 04:00 (nine years ago) link
Chords are very different in the original Delaney and Bonnie version, by the way.
― timellison, Monday, 2 June 2014 04:05 (nine years ago) link
Wonder who did the Mad Dogs arrangement and changed the chords.
― timellison, Monday, 2 June 2014 04:15 (nine years ago) link
It's not a compositional concern for "Mind Games" (John Lennon) to fade out rather than end?
― timellison, Monday, 2 June 2014 04:23 (nine years ago) link
Looking at that Jarman-Ivens piece, I think she's got the sequence wrong. The Delaney and Bonnie version was on an album that came out in '72, but it was an older track - had been on a 45 released in '69. It predates the Mad Dogs version.
― timellison, Monday, 2 June 2014 05:29 (nine years ago) link
pop song length started as functional too, became compositional
― ₴HABΔZZ ¶IZZΔ (Hurting 2), Monday, 2 June 2014 05:46 (nine years ago) link
I dunno! I never listen to John Lennon. Just kidding. I was just thinking about the 80s, when fade-outs were at their most ubiquitous. My ears hear fade-outs differently, to me they do not suggest "cycling onward unto infinity", but rather the feeling of leaving the protagonist caught struggling in a spider's web. Like the end of "Time Bandits". Or the moment the lights come on and they kick you out of the club.
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 2 June 2014 06:39 (nine years ago) link
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 2 June 2014 10:32 (nine years ago) link
Like Midler's recording, the Carpenters take the first three notes of the vocal line as a starting point, but whereas Midler's pianist then moves back to reiterate the resolution of the suspended supertonic (Figure 1.1)
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 2 June 2014 10:39 (nine years ago) link
simple F chord
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 2 June 2014 10:57 (nine years ago) link
Just listened again briefly. Maybe the person who changed the chords was me, writing them down wrong:)
Will say that instead of an oboe the original has a violin that emerges from the mix.
― Pentatonic's Rendezvous Band (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 2 June 2014 12:24 (nine years ago) link
do not suggest "cycling onward unto infinity"
Meltzer called this "osmotic tongue pressure."
― timellison, Monday, 2 June 2014 15:10 (nine years ago) link
(He was talking about "Hey Jude.")
― timellison, Monday, 2 June 2014 15:11 (nine years ago) link
Tell you one thing: rhythm section is much busier on the original, especially the bass. Lots of syncopated sixteenths right from the beginning. On the live version he saves most of his sixteenths for the chorus.
I was guessing before on the chords of the chorus, now I think they are
|Db | Cm Cm/Bb | Ab | Ab |
― Ant Man Bee Thousand (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 3 June 2014 01:36 (nine years ago) link
Now I know why I had trouble hearing the Bb on the MD&E version- first time around he plays an Ab. Playing the seventh under the chord on the downbeat is not always the first choice, unless the tune is "Waters of March."
― Ant Man Bee Thousand (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 4 June 2014 10:27 (nine years ago) link
Chords on MD&E version not really that much different than from original b-side. First new thing is the intro vamp on the F minor. After that main difference is the Gb that is used on the original to get into the chorus is moved to near the end of the chorus. In the MD&E version there is no chord change to lead you to the chorus, they just go there from the C at the end of the verse. The first time through, the playing gets a little het up on the first bars of the C, threatening to break out, but then calms down on the last bar and returns to the verse, but the next time they go all out on the last C and the pressure is too great - "I can't take it anymore!" -and the chorus starts.
― Ant Man Bee Thousand (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 4 June 2014 10:39 (nine years ago) link
Wait, there are some more differences. On the way up on the verse of the original, the Ab holds for another bar, as does the Db. Also there is a Bb-minor at the end of the chorus I didn't hear in the other one.
OK, guess I should see what Joe Osborn is doing on Carpenters version.
― Ant Man Bee Thousand (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 4 June 2014 11:32 (nine years ago) link
By original b-side, are you talking about the Delaney and Bonnie version?
― timellison, Wednesday, 4 June 2014 17:55 (nine years ago) link
Listening again, the big difference I hear is that they go to Ab major instead of C minor at the end of the verse. The Mad Dogs and Carpenters versions go to C minor. I thought they also used C minor as the fourth chord in the verse, but it seems just listening again now that it's a first inversion Ab. (The first inversion outlines the bass descent from the Db chord that precedes it to the Bb chord that follows it.)
― timellison, Wednesday, 4 June 2014 18:36 (nine years ago) link
Delaney and Bonnie version also has the dominant chord at the end of the first and third verses. And Bb minor to C7 at the end of the chorus in place of the "I love you/I really do" line.
Bette Midler version is very different also!
― timellison, Thursday, 5 June 2014 03:31 (nine years ago) link
Speaking of the "I love you/I really do" line - Mad Dogs version is Gb to Db but Carpenters make the Db a major seventh chord.
― timellison, Thursday, 5 June 2014 03:35 (nine years ago) link
can anyone name examples of songs in the Lydian mode that don't resolve to (or hint at resolving to) Ionian/Aeolian/Mixolydian?
― macklin' rosie (crüt), Tuesday, 24 June 2014 21:31 (nine years ago) link
Love to help you, son, but I've moved on to the Lydian dominant.
― That's How Strong My Dub Is (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 25 June 2014 00:11 (nine years ago) link
j/k
― That's How Strong My Dub Is (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 25 June 2014 00:12 (nine years ago) link
fleetwood mac dreams & rem man on the moon
― Crackle Box, Wednesday, 25 June 2014 04:30 (nine years ago) link
via a book i have here, there are loads of examples but none of them seem that strictly lydian to me.
i don't know if the way i think of modes is 'correct' but i don't find it useful to think of whole songs as being in a particular mode.
pedal point/couple of chords + a particular melodic approach can signify a mode, but few song-song-type-proppa-song songs do that.
i used to think if i learnt my modes i'd unlock some magic key to new musical worlds but now my ear/interval knowledge is up to scratch i don't really understand how thinking modally could really help me.
― Crackle Box, Wednesday, 25 June 2014 04:48 (nine years ago) link
Reminded that I recently read this in, by Richard Taruskin's Oxford History of Western Music:
Glareanus’s main theoretical innovation, reflected in the pseudo-Greeky title of his book (“The Twelve-Stringed Lyre”), lay in the recognition of four additional modes beyond the eight modes established by the Frankish theorists of Gregorian chant. These modes, which Glareanus christened Ionian and Aeolian (together with their plagal or “hypo-” forms), had their respective finals on C and A, and hence corresponded to what we now know as the major and minor scales. Neither was a necessary invention. Through the use of B-flat, a fully accredited tone in the gamut since at least the eleventh century, the Lydian had long since provided the theoretical model for the major and the Dorian for the minor. But Glareanus’s terminology made it unnecessary to account for the use of C and A as finals by calling them transpositions of other finals. Very typically for a humanist, Glareanus sought to represent his innovation as a return to authentic Greek practice. It was anything but that.
― That's How Strong My Dub Is (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 25 June 2014 11:06 (nine years ago) link
,by
― That's How Strong My Dub Is (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 25 June 2014 11:46 (nine years ago) link
"Dreams" seems like a pretty legit answer, although some of the pentatonicisms in the melody avoid the B.
― timellison, Friday, 27 June 2014 06:09 (nine years ago) link
IMO "Dreams" is not in Lydian mode. It is a case of a song having no represented tonic. Compare the melodic behaviour of "Dreams" to "I Think I'm In Trouble" and you'll hear that they're essentially the same song, except "Trouble" has the I chord on the verses.
Me, I don't think of music as having any modal qualities unless there's evidence of intention toward it being "modal". Sometimes that intention is revealed through analysis, other times it just "feels" that way. I "feel" that the jazz-school trained bros in Grizzly Bear did whole-heartedly write the verse of "Two Weeks" knowing the melody was, for the verse at least, Lydian. I feel the same way about Bjork's "Army of Me" (Phrygian).
In the latter case, "Army of Me" does have textbook Phyrgian cadences. Grizzly Bear do not-- the traditional Lydian cadence is II-I (G-F), and it is not evident here.
But I could* argue that a defining compositional feature of 00s freak-folk, from Devendra to Iron & Wine to Grizzly Bear to Fleet Foxes, is a flexible treatment of the fourth of a scale. It sounds, sonically, like mysticism. I first noticed it when I heard Grizzly Bear's "Little Brother" and thought it might be a trait-of-a-genre-worth-investigating when I heard the same thing in a Fleet Foxes song. Went back and heard it all through Devendra's second album. There is a Vashti Bunyan song that does it. "Chimicum Rain" also, flexible 4ths on that song. "H'ors d'Oeuvres" by Roy Harper, too. All these freak-folk touchstone songs, all have flexifourths. Interesting, huh? (Very little to do with actual Lydian mode, though.)
* could but won't, beyond this single post, because zzzzzzzzz.
― fgti, Friday, 27 June 2014 09:02 (nine years ago) link
flexible fourths have been used in folk/trad/parlor music for over a century so that makes sense
― guwop (crüt), Friday, 27 June 2014 15:42 (nine years ago) link
If a traditional Lydian cadence is II-I, what distinguishes it from all the II-I movement in "Dreams?" (I mean, obviously, a II-I in the middle of one of the verses is not a cadence, but what about the ones that end the verses and choruses?)
― timellison, Friday, 27 June 2014 17:49 (nine years ago) link
If the song is in Lydian as you suggest, the melodic cadence "you will know" would be resolving downward to the fifth of the I chord. That is a far less convincing suggestion than an implied supertonic-to-tonic melodic movement over a IV chord. The melody is so un-Lydian that I can't hear it that way.
― fgti, Friday, 27 June 2014 18:34 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, I don't hear it as supertonic to tonic, though. The whole melody seems to frame A minor to me, mostly pentatonic. So, I hear that resolution down to C as a weak one that ends on the third scale degree.
― timellison, Friday, 27 June 2014 18:57 (nine years ago) link
I cannot aurally wrap my head around that reading, but the capacity for disparate interpretations speaks to the strength of that progression, I suppose!
― fgti, Friday, 27 June 2014 19:41 (nine years ago) link
Here's why: first two lines of the verse start on A, climb up to E and then back down. Third line starts on A an octave higher, frames the upward movement on C (the highest note), then back to A, descending to (and resting on) the fifth - E, ending on the lower A.
First and third lines of the chorus also outline E to A.
― timellison, Friday, 27 June 2014 19:54 (nine years ago) link
Ok, yes, if I imagine an A drone I could hear a beautiful Aeolean melody here. How does that make the song in F Lydian? And: how do you reconcile the A-Aeo melody with the chords? And: did you listen to basically-the-same-song "I Think I'm In Trouble" again and hear how the same songwriters might be using the same terrific chord progression?
― fgti, Friday, 27 June 2014 20:01 (nine years ago) link
the song feels Aeolian to me too, but what fgti is saying sounds right
― guwop (crüt), Friday, 27 June 2014 20:02 (nine years ago) link
How does that make the song in F Lydian?
No, I'm not saying it does! I know I originally said that I could see calling it Lydian, but only because the chords do seem to rest on F. I think the way they reconcile the sort of Aeolian melody with F is by suggesting that it's a major seventh chord. The last guitar lick at the end is A-F-E.
"Trouble" does the same thing, doesn't it? The IV chord is a major seventh.
― timellison, Friday, 27 June 2014 20:14 (nine years ago) link
So, I am resistant to saying "it's in this mode" when it comes to modern pop music. It's fun to talk about Mixolydian and Dorian and Aeolean scales, and pointing out instances where the song sticks with those pitches, certainly how they're used in jazz... but modes are an ancient compositional idea that has little or no bearing on modern music, aside from composers/songwriters who deliberately wish to write modally as an affectation. So yeah, I agree that the melody for "Dreams" is a "sort of" Aeolian melody, but in my opinion it is more accurate and interesting to describe it as a major-key melody in a song that never arrives at the I-chord.
I said elsewhere (and upthread) that "Army Of Me" exists entirely within a Phrygian scale. I imagine that song is the product of Björk's own "I want to write a song in Phrygian mode" creative decision. But in rereading some threads and comments this morning, I was amazed at how many people also want to describe "Dreams" and "Get Lucky" as Aeolean, or "Pyramid Song" as Phrygian. I simply don't believe these terms have any application in pop music, I think North Americans pop listeners hear music as major/minor/other. I don't think a raised fourth in a scale means a song is Lydian or a bII chord makes something Phrygian.
A song I wanted to talk about with you guys because a) it's really very pretty and b) it kind of explores this issue is Beck's "Wave":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iea-ozFzGzw
What do you think? It does the same not-actually-Phrygian thing as "Pyramid Song"-- the I chord is a major triad, so it is not in Phyrgian mode, but it features a I-bII movements with enough consistency that it leads listeners into thinking it might be modal. And what do you make of those bV chords? What kind of cadence is that? I'm not a particularly advanced theory guy, and beyond mediant-relationships in chromatic harmony I basically just start thinking "now we're getting intuitive". But if there's an explanation for what this is, what it's called, beyond I-bII-bV I'd love to talk about it...
― fgti, Monday, 30 June 2014 23:28 (nine years ago) link
I was amazed at how many people also want to describe "Dreams" and "Get Lucky" as Aeolean, or "Pyramid Song" as Phrygian. I simply don't believe these terms have any application in pop music, I think North Americans pop listeners hear music as major/minor/other.
Sometimes people prefer to describe modern diatonic music as modal because 'major/minor' could tend to imply CPP functional harmony and voice-leading.
I'll try to analyse the Beck when I can get to my instrument but that's an interesting progression, you're right! Off the top of my head, the closest thing I could think of is that a quasi-Locrian line (in terms of root movement) is being harmonized with major triads, similar to what Bartok did with a pentatonic line in Bluebeard's Castle?
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 1 July 2014 13:35 (nine years ago) link
Yes, and I contend that the vast majority of popular music conforms to the language of CPP functional harmony. Certainly more so than it conforms to modal forms.
I thought you might say Locrian, and maybe you're right, but I mean, I've never actually heard a piece of actual Locrian music. That is, I've never heard Locrian chant before, or any jazz based on the Locrian mode.
My ear very clearly hears modes as being functionally related to raga. That is, the scale is not the basis for complex polyphony. The mode is describing a set of pitches that must at all times relate to a root, or a drone, or an implication of one-- and a droning root is a consistent feature of chant, Indian classical music, and modal jazz. You see what I mean?
― fgti, Tuesday, 1 July 2014 15:54 (nine years ago) link
you were the first person itt to describe Get Lucky as "Aeolean"!
― guwop (crüt), Tuesday, 1 July 2014 15:58 (nine years ago) link
Yes! I'm trying to figure this out as I go along :)
Dorian and Aeolean are useful because they describe two different versions of a (typically) minor scale. Mixolydian too, I suppose, for major, though it's use seems to me to be borne out of flexible 7ths (and flexible 3rd for blues and folk). Nobody says Ionian because they just say major. It's Lydian, Phrygian and Locrian I guess that I'm wary of.
― fgti, Tuesday, 1 July 2014 17:11 (nine years ago) link
And well you should be.
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 1 July 2014 17:28 (nine years ago) link
I think the flattened seventh of the Mixolydian mode as used in American music is the convergence of different traditions; in the classical & Christian music traditions it is, as you say, an alteration of the major seventh, but it is also a fixture of the folk music of the British Isles (especially drone-based music, e.g. that produced by bagpipes or uilleann pipes). the relationship of the flattened 7th to the 7th harmonic makes the Mixolydian mode sound just as stable in a folk/rock context as the major/minor scales are in a classical/pop context. to my ears anyway.
― guwop (crüt), Tuesday, 1 July 2014 17:37 (nine years ago) link
I feel like I hear a lot of i-bII progressions with what I hear as Phrygian melodies over them but this thread has made me less and less sure of my capacity to properly identify such things. I agree about Lydian/Locrian though.
― guwop (crüt), Tuesday, 1 July 2014 17:45 (nine years ago) link
Enjoying and agreeing with the recent posts. Maybe later have something to add. Or subtract.
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 1 July 2014 18:01 (nine years ago) link
@ Crüt I hesitated to identify bagpipes/uilleann pipes as being "Mixolydian" because traditionally they're exactly not :) I mean, they kind of are, but the seventh isn't fully "flat" and the third isn't fully "sharp". Similar to raga tunings and Hardanger tunings, they have their own unique system that ought not to be defined by trad Western tunings. The Mixolydian tuning you'll hear on harp+LARP renditions of "She Moved Through The Fair" are aberrations. This is nothing new! just bringing it up as a counter-point to my hesitation in application of modal terms
― fgti, Tuesday, 1 July 2014 18:57 (nine years ago) link
that's very true. I'm being super sloppy w/my vocabulary.
― guwop (crüt), Tuesday, 1 July 2014 19:23 (nine years ago) link
It's a trap, crüt!
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 1 July 2014 19:27 (nine years ago) link
Ha, I think I mentioned before that the first part of Rush's "YYZ" is always the (modern) example of Locrian mode that I use in class. It does have a repeated root (with ^1-b^5) in the bass. How would you analyse the pitch collections in Meshuggah songs, if not as Locrian?
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 1 July 2014 19:35 (nine years ago) link
I guess my thinking about church modes in modern music is somewhat in line with Persichetti's?
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Tuesday, 1 July 2014 19:37 (nine years ago) link
Right you are about YYZ! Damn, I can't believe I never noticed that. (I never have analyzed a Meshuggah song, I just assume w darker metal that flattened-supertonics are required)
What does Persichetti say? I've never studied him.
― fgti, Tuesday, 1 July 2014 19:48 (nine years ago) link
Perhaps. If you could briefly explain your point of view and that of Persichetti and who Persichetti is then I might be able to judge better.(Xp)
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 1 July 2014 20:02 (nine years ago) link
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 2 July 2014 03:22 (nine years ago) link
Just was in a roomful of jazz guitarists and didn't ask anyone about any of this stuff although I kind of considered it. Then on the way home I ran into a really good piano player and couldn't restrain myself anymore so I asked him "How about that Locrian Mode?" His face fell in the classic smile into a frown maneuver and he said "I don't like to talk to people about modes. That's not the way I like to think about music. I like to use my ear."
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 2 July 2014 03:26 (nine years ago) link
Actually now I can recall a few years ago asking one of those jazz guitarists about whether he played a Locrian natural 9 over a half-diminished chord and him reply angrily "a Locrian scale has a flat nine" and around the same time watching a video of one of the other jazz guitarists saying he did play the Locrian natural 9 although "some people play the flat nine." If only I had thought to make them confront each other to see who was right.
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 2 July 2014 04:36 (nine years ago) link
Perhaps this is a subject in which you can never win trying to discuss it. As soon as you open your mouth you are fair game to be sonned by a Canadian Conservatory kid on a music theory beef.
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 2 July 2014 04:38 (nine years ago) link
So yeah, I agree that the melody for "Dreams" is a "sort of" Aeolian melody, but in my opinion it is more accurate and interesting to describe it as a major-key melody in a song that never arrives at the I-chord.
My problem with this is that there is zero pull to the I chord in this song. None. So, why is it even relevant to consider the I chord?
I mean, to me, the song has as little to do with the key of C major as it does with the Lydian mode. It seems, on the other hand, to have a lot to do with A minor pentatonic melodicism over a home F major seventh chord but I know I already said that.
― timellison, Wednesday, 2 July 2014 07:51 (nine years ago) link
The B held over in the melody of the Beck song makes the flat two an augmented chord. I'm not sure how you explain the Bb chord other than as a chord you would play after F or F augmented, but I don't think it functions in any way relative to E major.
― timellison, Wednesday, 2 July 2014 08:02 (nine years ago) link
Because the melody clearly cadences on the I. I dunno what to say. "Call Me Maybe" does the exact same thing in its choruses, so does "Teenage Dream". Your take on this is very singular, "Dreams" iirc is always cited as an effective use of an implied-major. But then again, there are people (incl. the song's authors, apparently, and hilariously) who want to say "Sweet Home Alabama" is V-IV-I instead of I-bVII-IV, when that song is written about as being a textbook example of "Mixolydian", vive le difference
Re: Beck, what is that moment in Holst I am thinking of where he do that I-bII movement and suspends the dominant? "Saturn"? Anyway, I hear that B in the Beck as a suspension, not as a strict augmented chord. He resolves it, don't he? I will relisten when I get back to internetland
― fgti, Wednesday, 2 July 2014 09:15 (nine years ago) link
Re: "Dreams" ambiguity, what do you hear when you hear "Hyperballad"? Assuming root C, you've got C C/B C/A in the verses with a melody that hangs on the G and trails off (gloriously) on the F. Then, chorus arrives, and just as the melody rises up to a C, the chords change to F G a G F G a bdim. Same deal as "Dreams", no C-chord in the chorus, though the melody outlines a C-major chord and cadences deceptively to IV on "though all this" and "happier". This song plays even more closely on Tim's team because it clearly ends on the a-minor chord. But is it in a-minor (Aeolean)? or C-major? or does it modulate?
― fgti, Wednesday, 2 July 2014 09:24 (nine years ago) link
"Call Me Maybe" does the exact same thing in its choruses
Yeah, but that melody really outlines the notes of the tonic triad.
The Katy Perry one is really cool. I think the two-note guitar riff dupes you into thinking it's going to be a I-V progression, but it's that IV chord with an implied major seventh again! Nevertheless, the melody feels more rooted in the tonic to me than "Dreams" does. A lot of emphasis on the suspended tonic note over the V chord that contributes to that as well.
― timellison, Thursday, 3 July 2014 00:34 (nine years ago) link
OK, found a guy who was cool about answering a question without giving a lot of 'tude
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 July 2014 00:47 (nine years ago) link
Vincent Persichetti was a 20th-century American composer/theorist. I was referring specifically to his 1961 book Twentieth-Century Harmony: Creative Aspects and Practice. I see that Michael Morangelli has provided a summary of the whole book here: http://www.thereelscore.com/PortfolioStuff/PDFFiles/PersichettiNotes.pdf . Ch 2 under 'The First Half of the 20th Century' is what I was thinking of. The summary begins on p 15 of the linked pdf. Basically, he described modern diatonic music as modal when it does not follow CPP rules of harmony and voice-leading (in the strict sense, i.e. usually), regardless of whether it worked like early pre-tonal modal music at all ("resemblance in construction, NOT usage"). He still analysed and wrote triadic harmonies and harmonic progressions in modern modal music, including the use of 'dominant equivalents' (maj or min triads that include the 'mode-defining note', e.g. bII in the Phrygian mode). He also discussed modal modulation (sticking with the same mode but shifting pitch centres, e.g. going from E Dorian -> A Dorian -> F# Dorian) and modal interchange (sticking with the same pitch centre but shifting the collection, e.g. E Dorian -> E Locrian -> E Lydian).
Persichetti's ideas can be a bit idiosyncratic and I don't think they're useful for all modern tonal/centric music but I do feel that they have some use.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 4 July 2014 01:31 (nine years ago) link
(I've been occupied with a few things that have made it hard to analyse the Beck song with an instrument or even while listening closely.)
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 4 July 2014 01:32 (nine years ago) link
That little summary you just provided was plenty useful, thanks.
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 July 2014 01:42 (nine years ago) link
I'm gone!
― Ówen P., Friday, 4 July 2014 12:55 (nine years ago) link
From thread? From borad? Why?
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 July 2014 13:05 (nine years ago) link
Is it cutting people completely out of your life
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 July 2014 13:06 (nine years ago) link
Feel bad if it was me giving grief about Canada Conservatory because I was only kidding and after I typed it the last time realized it was getting old and was going to try not to do it anymore.
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 July 2014 13:11 (nine years ago) link
Besides I was meaning Sund4r anyway.
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 July 2014 13:14 (nine years ago) link
j/k really
Sund4r, that summary you linked to was good too. Although it eemed to me that he went right from the seven modes of the Ionian Scale onto more exotic scales like the Biharmonic Major or Melodic Major, skipping over Harmonic Minor and Melodic Minor modes. Guess he did mention overtone scale somewhere. Maybe I missed something.
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 July 2014 14:38 (nine years ago) link
Hm, just came across another scale to use over half-diminished 7th chord, Dorian b5, second mode of Melodic Major. Let me try it out. See you later.
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 July 2014 15:05 (nine years ago) link
Am also confused by fgti's comment.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Friday, 4 July 2014 15:21 (nine years ago) link
He'll be back
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 July 2014 16:52 (nine years ago) link
Here's some stuff I think about.
Generating fingerings for bass and guitar:Consider breaking scale into groups of three. For modes of (Ionian) major scale there are only three of these- major third, minor third half step first, minor third half step second. Furthermore the same patterns always repeat before changing to the next pattern. For example, if you start a Mixolydian scale, you get three major thirds, followed by two minor thirds half-step first, followed by two minor thirds half-step second. Why is this? Because in each group you are playing a third, next pattern starts a fourth away, you are going around the circle of fifths in the reverse direction,
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 5 July 2014 16:31 (nine years ago) link
How can you use this? Well a two octave scale has 7+7+1 =15 beats, which can be broken up into five groups of three.
Maybe I should say circle of fifths. You are moving by fourths within a given key, but a scale starting a fourth away in the same mode is the same except for one accidental.
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 5 July 2014 16:36 (nine years ago) link
You could think of the modes of the major scale as one giant loop, with the half-steps coming every fourth or fifth. You always get at least one repeat until it mutates. Whereas for modes of the melodic minor, in which the half-steps are next to each other, meaning separated by a single whole step, you basically get an alteration of major third and minor third patterns except for the point where the two minor third patterns are back to back- the beginning of the sixth mode.
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 5 July 2014 16:48 (nine years ago) link
First started thinking about this a while back in terms of four note groupings, tetrachords, in which case you are moving around by fifths and there are four patterns that repeat as follows: two major, two Dorian, two Phrygian and one Lydian.
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 5 July 2014 17:12 (nine years ago) link
Sorry, this is just the way my mind works, even if turns out to be only a case of "looking where the light is." Feel free to take it or leave it. I'll spare you my comments on drop-2 voicings for now.
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 5 July 2014 17:33 (nine years ago) link
Although it eemed to me that he went right from the seven modes of the Ionian Scale onto more exotic scales like the Biharmonic Major or Melodic Major, skipping over Harmonic Minor and Melodic Minor modes.
I think that he is assuming that the reader is already familiar with common practice theory, where the harmonic and melodic minor scales are standard.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 7 July 2014 00:15 (nine years ago) link
Oh! You are talking about rotating the harmonic and melodic minor scales! Are there many 20th century compositions that do that? (Disregard the previous comment.)
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 7 July 2014 00:17 (nine years ago) link
In jazz almost all of the modes of melodic minor are used and a few of the modes of harmonic minor are used as well, mainly the fifth mode.
― Riot In #9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 July 2014 00:37 (nine years ago) link
Found a paper on my phone I must have downloaded during an earlier discussion that may or may not answer this question.http://trace.tennessee.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1081&context=gamut
― Don't Want To Know If Only You Were Lonely (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 12 July 2014 13:33 (nine years ago) link
Which cites this interestingly titled paper: http://www.theory.esm.rochester.edu/temperley/papers/temperley-pm07.pdf
― Don't Want To Know If Only You Were Lonely (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 12 July 2014 13:41 (nine years ago) link
That being: "The Melodic-Harmonic 'Divorce' in Rock," by David Temperley.
― Don't Want To Know If Only You Were Lonely (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 12 July 2014 13:42 (nine years ago) link
Oh, fascinating. The disconnect between melody and harmony in pop/rock is something I've been thinking about a lot over the past while.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 12 July 2014 22:16 (nine years ago) link
That Butler quote led me to the following interesting and relevant paper, which also cites it, on Schoenberg and the Church Modes. http://symposium.music.org/index.php?option=com_k2&view=item&id=2103:schoenberg-on-the-modes-characteristics-substitutes-and-tonal-orientation&Itemid=124PS The author is a Canadian academic, full professor at the University of Ottawa.
Thanks for the link btw. I'll let Murray know we were talking about his paper the next time I see him!
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 13 July 2014 20:30 (nine years ago) link
Sure, when will that be?
― Don't Want To Know If Only You Were Lonely (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 13 July 2014 20:33 (nine years ago) link
Looking at some of the examples in the Temperley paper. The "Taking Care of Business" one is interesting. The notes over the Bb5 really don't have anything to do with that chord.
I don't agree with the "Sunday Blood Sunday" one. I think the notes have a lot to do with the chords up until that F#, but that's just creating a sense of major seventh harmony with the G chord (and the A before it is a passing tone).
― timellison, Monday, 14 July 2014 05:11 (nine years ago) link
And, yeah, wow at the "Drive My Car" one, especially that tone cluster over the A chord. I think the F there gives it a little bit of the character of an augmented chord.
― timellison, Monday, 14 July 2014 05:30 (nine years ago) link
Diminished chords:classic or dud?
― I Need Andmoreagain (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 17 July 2014 05:15 (nine years ago) link
Couldn't sleep, started strumming some minor key thing and The Hollies' "Bus Stop" came out. It's Aeolian or I'll eat my hat. Also the melody starts with broken thirds, but syncopated so it sounds like a song and not scale practice. Oh, yeah came across another book, by one of the usual suspects.
― I Need Andmoreagain (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 17 July 2014 07:19 (nine years ago) link
"Bus Stop" - a top ten hit where the chorus sounds like a bridge.
It does tonicize E minor in that part.
― timellison, Thursday, 17 July 2014 18:44 (nine years ago) link
Haven't read the whole thing yet but this looks like it might be of interest to people here: http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.14.20.2/mto.14.20.2.biamonte.php
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 23 July 2014 14:20 (nine years ago) link
Noticed before but didn't read, thanks. Wondering if I should try to count out "Just What I Needed" before peeking at the solution.
― I Don't Zing Like Nobody (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 23 July 2014 15:59 (nine years ago) link
Def
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Wednesday, 23 July 2014 16:32 (nine years ago) link
Weird thing is because I was trying to count it out this time, I didn't get faked out at all. But a few months ago even when I relistened to it a few times I still would get faked out.
Think moral of story is1) when getting faked out by intro for your initial attempt assume first beat your hear is one and see if it works out.2) if the intro is reprised later on the song, just count your way into it starting in the (hopefully) metrically simpler and more intuitive section preceding it.
This kind of thing happens all the time in Latin music. Still need to read paper
― I Don't Zing Like Nobody (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 24 July 2014 06:43 (nine years ago) link
Your hear = you hear
― I Don't Zing Like Nobody (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 24 July 2014 06:44 (nine years ago) link
Is "Just What I Needed" more of a fakeout than "Be My Baby", which also accents beat 4?
Moral 2) is OTM but moral 1) seems too trial-and-error imo. I would rather suggest working backwards from the point where the downbeat is obvious.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 24 July 2014 14:20 (nine years ago) link
B-b-but how does one count backwards?
"Be My Baby" has a strong downbeat from the get-go, no fakeout. Closest thing to a fakeout is signature Hal Blaine quarter note triples on the fadeout.
― I Don't Zing Like Nobody (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 24 July 2014 14:31 (nine years ago) link
I guess the agogic accent in "Be My Baby" makes the downbeat more obvious right away.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 24 July 2014 14:32 (nine years ago) link
Well, I just meant that in this case, once the drums enter and you can hear the 1 clearly, you can go back and count the number of beats between the accented chord and the 1 and then extrapolate. (It's easy here since it comes exactly one beat before the 1.) If a song is obviously in 4, you could just use trial and error too, of course. (I guess I did just count starting on 1 when I listened to this today tbh. I just wasn't sure it was good as a general principle.)
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 24 July 2014 14:40 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, it is trail and error, but I just found it useful to concentrate, to plant a claim stake in the timeline if you will. Maybe will try using letters, A,B,C, D or "subtracting" as you seem to be suggesting.
― I Don't Zing Like Nobody (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 24 July 2014 16:53 (nine years ago) link
You know what's an incredibly tricky one? "Bang a Boomerang" by Abba has this part at the end of the verse where they're accenting upbeats. First verse goes "Every smile and every little touch/Don't you know that they MEAN SO MUCH."
Those last three notes are what I'm talking about. I find it very hard to sing those notes in the right place. If I got it, I'd imagine it would also be hard to find the downbeat again afterward.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CsJCa2TlXU
― timellison, Thursday, 24 July 2014 18:34 (nine years ago) link
Actually, the upbeats start on "Don't you know." Wild.
― timellison, Thursday, 24 July 2014 19:12 (nine years ago) link
See if you guys can stream the studio version of Cheo Feliciano's "Esto es el guaguanco" from the classic album Cheo and count out the intro and notice where the accents fall.
― I Don't Zing Like Nobody (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 July 2014 16:41 (nine years ago) link
That is great.
In a way, that first downbeat comes in when you think it's going to, but the melodic line throws you off. That first melodic descent ends (and yeah, is accented) on the note after it. (I don't know if you'd call it an upbeat or a weak beat. Depends on how you count it.)
― timellison, Friday, 25 July 2014 18:30 (nine years ago) link
I could discern the downbeat immediately, but I've been listening to a lot of samba-influenced latin + brazilian music lately
― Lewis - J'Agour (crüt), Friday, 25 July 2014 18:47 (nine years ago) link
:)
― I Don't Zing Like Nobody (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 July 2014 23:31 (nine years ago) link
This tune is why I came up with my takeaway 1) upthread.
Only started to figure it out when l realized that the end of the intro was kind of a variant of what Sund4r would call the "Be My Baby" beat.
― I Don't Zing Like Nobody (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 July 2014 23:50 (nine years ago) link
Confession: I had stopped playing any kind of musical instrument for a decade and completely lost the ability to count out simple beats and it took forever to get some of it back. The mind is a terrible thing.
― Sorry Somehow Forgot To Take Out The Trash (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 26 July 2014 17:27 (nine years ago) link
crüt, see if you can not got lost in the part starting around 2:35https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6MX__RFXq4s
― Sorry Somehow Forgot To Take Out The Trash (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 26 July 2014 23:37 (nine years ago) link
Also have any of you guys spent time thinking about drop-2 voicings or did you just memorize them and forget about it?
― Sorry Somehow Forgot To Take Out The Trash (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 27 July 2014 17:17 (nine years ago) link
xpost ha yeah that one got me!
― Lewis - J'Agour (crüt), Sunday, 27 July 2014 17:26 (nine years ago) link
Maybe have to run if through some slowdown software.
Also, sometimes I do this weird thing on the subway whilst listening of alternate tapping my left and right foot on quarter notes so I can see and feel the beat better. Sometimes works.
― Sorry Somehow Forgot To Take Out The Trash (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 27 July 2014 18:19 (nine years ago) link
lol, there was some free music in Bryant Park this Friday that I was not alerted to until too late but one of the acts was named The Guidonian Hand.
― Sorry Somehow Forgot To Take Out The Trash (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 27 July 2014 19:56 (nine years ago) link
See if you can guess what sort of ensemble they are before googling.
― Sorry Somehow Forgot To Take Out The Trash (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 27 July 2014 20:14 (nine years ago) link
The guitar intro to "I Go to Pieces" (Del Shannon/Peter and Gordon) starts on the upbeat of one.
Did you see the live version of Hommy the other day? A friend of mine posted on facebook that he took the train from Philadelphia to see it.
― timellison, Sunday, 27 July 2014 20:23 (nine years ago) link
No! I wanted to go but got into something else then forgot. It got rained out before the second half, I read
― Hiriam (Come And Take Me) (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 27 July 2014 20:59 (nine years ago) link
There was a similar event at Lincoln Center about 4 years ago, maybe Ruben Blades and Willie Colon were involved, that set some kind of attendance record. I meant to jump of the train and soak up some atmosphere then jump back on the train but I plumb forgot.
― Hiriam (Come And Take Me) (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 27 July 2014 21:39 (nine years ago) link
Maybe it was Larry Harlow in 2011. Looks like another thing This August
― Hiriam (Come And Take Me) (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 27 July 2014 21:54 (nine years ago) link
Guess that was last year
― Hiriam (Come And Take Me) (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 27 July 2014 21:58 (nine years ago) link
Thoughts on drop-2 voicings:Middle voices are adjacent- top two are a fourth or fifth apart, as are bottom two.Moving up a string set to next inversion , bottom two voices move up an octave, maintain orientation, top two voices drop an octave or two and invert. For dominant seventh chord tritone is invariant under inversion so one can "follow the bouncing tritone" as it goes above and below the "equator."
Raising or lowering by an octave the even or odd pair of voices creates another drop-2 voicing of same chord.
Raising next to lowest voice by an octave creates a drop-3 voicing, as does lowering the top voice by two octaves when possible.
The tritone pair of seventh chord up or down a fourth/fifth is a half-step away. To get to that chord if desired, shift the tritone pair a half-step and flip the relevant note of the fourth/fifth pair a whole step on the other side of the dividing line. In this the four voicings per stringset are broken into two pairs.
That is all for now.
― Hiriam (Come And Take Me) (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 28 July 2014 00:08 (nine years ago) link
The tritone pair of seventh chord up or down a fourth/fifth is a half-step away
― Hiriam (Come And Take Me) (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 28 July 2014 00:21 (nine years ago) link
Now back to p i m a torture
― Hiriam (Come And Take Me) (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 28 July 2014 00:24 (nine years ago) link
I guess the agogic accent in "Be My Baby"Still don't know what 'agogic' means in this context. Or in any context really.
― Two Ten O'clocks Clash (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 28 July 2014 04:10 (nine years ago) link
Okay, when I woke i found I could count "Gracia Divina" without getting lost.
― Dr. Winston O'Boogie Chillen' (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 28 July 2014 13:02 (nine years ago) link
Just heard "Hit The Road, Jack" and thought "Andalusian cadence!" cause that's how I roll.
― Dr. Winston O'Boogie Chillen' (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 31 July 2014 16:35 (nine years ago) link
Then I heard "I Feel Good" and thought "arpeggiated ninth chord!"
― Dr. Winston O'Boogie Chillen' (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 31 July 2014 16:49 (nine years ago) link
Nothing gives the autodidact away more then the overeager, ostentatious display of his hard-won crumbs of knowledge.
― Dr. Winston O'Boogie Chillen' (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 31 July 2014 16:50 (nine years ago) link
"than"
― Dr. Winston O'Boogie Chillen' (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 31 July 2014 16:56 (nine years ago) link
Would add "oh and moronic misspellings and homophone substitutions" but not sure if they count in autocorrect smart phone era
― Dr. Winston O'Boogie Chillen' (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 31 July 2014 16:59 (nine years ago) link
Because autocorrect seems to help introduce as many errors as it fixes.
― Dr. Winston O'Boogie Chillen' (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 31 July 2014 17:01 (nine years ago) link
Metric ambiguity at the beginning of Prefab Sprout's "Appetite."
― Erdős Number 9 Dream (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 2 August 2014 19:06 (nine years ago) link
That's a tough one. Were you able to figure it out?
― timellison, Tuesday, 5 August 2014 08:00 (nine years ago) link
Thought I did but then forgot it. Plays at being a treble meter but then shifts into 4/4 in an interesting way.
― That's His Grandmother Doug On Bass (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 5 August 2014 11:28 (nine years ago) link
Counting it in 12/8 with the pickup as '(FOUR) and Two and Three ONE" and with the big hit arriving at the middle beat of three. Then at the very end the last quarter-note is truncated, and morphs so you count "and four and" into the 4/4 part. Still not confident I am correct.
― Dedekind Cut Creator (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 9 August 2014 14:56 (nine years ago) link
OK, two things, in no particular order
1) Maybe everybody already knew this or nobody cares, but it is interesting how the modes (or two keys) starting a whole step apart are related. Since a whole step or major second is the inverse of a flat-seventh and more importantly, is equal to two fifths up or two fourths down, you can think of going up a whole step as progressing two notches in the counterclockwise direction on the circle of fifths, whereby you are getting two more flats. So
Ionian + 2 flats->Dorian + 2 more flats -> Phrygian, Lydian +2 flats->Mixolydian+2 more flats -> Aeolian +2 more flats -> Locrian.
Going a half step, is more complicated, and you'll have to wait for next post.
2) Heard this tune last night and it is my new jamhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0bOwviSGv8
It's in G (harmonic/composite) minor and the bass really moves between playing the tumbao and playing various lines along with the rest of the band. There is a lot more rhythmic complication built into the actual structure of the tune which normally would be relegated to the intro, some turnarounds and the soloing.
― Dedekind Cut Creator (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 10 August 2014 22:37 (nine years ago) link
One takeaway from some of the more esoteric academic papers we glanced at is, however you slice it, most all pop music is based on triadic harmony. What harmonic palette the triads come from or whether the melody fits or has been D-I-V-O-R-C-E-d is another story. But I kept this is mind recently when I remembered a while back some guitar player I knew couldn't figure out the intro to "September Gurls" and when I finally sat down and tried it. seems like it is just descending pairs of alternating A and E triads -in different inversions of course. And to get the full effect you probably need to play it on a Manditar.
― Dedekind Cut Creator (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 17 August 2014 06:19 (nine years ago) link
Here is link to review of Allan F. Moore book I mentioned briefly upthread and was glancing at today, mainly the capsule history of pop music in the fifth chapter, which is called "Style" and is pretty interesting although obviously one may disagree with some of his judgements or interpretations and this phrase seems to be a gaffe "(James) Brown's obsession with accenting the second beat"http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.13.19.4/mto.13.19.4.endrinal.php
― Dedekind Cut Creator (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 17 August 2014 16:22 (nine years ago) link
first example that springs to mind is "Cold Sweat"
― example (crüt), Sunday, 17 August 2014 18:02 (nine years ago) link
Good point, crüt. But the title of his biography is The One, not The Two, and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncOfAoDQbQk
― Dedekind Cut Creator (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 17 August 2014 18:26 (nine years ago) link
"I'm Free" off of Tommy seems to have a metrical fakeout. What seems to be the one is the AND of four leading to the one, I think. When vocals kick in it they seem to be a half a beat late because of this. You can also notice a difference between the relationship of the other parts and the piano. During the intro the piano *seems* to be syncopated but when the figure repeats it lines up. Do u see?
― Dear Ultraviolet Catastrophe Waitress (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 26 August 2014 16:43 (nine years ago) link
Is this thread dead?
― Code Money Changes Everything (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 22 September 2014 19:09 (nine years ago) link
If not, I wanted to ask something about "(Don't Fear) The Reaper." I guess I could on the other thread but thought might fit better here.
― Code Money Changes Everything (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 22 September 2014 23:32 (nine years ago) link
May end up doing so anyway.
― Dear Catastrophe Theory Waitress (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 22 September 2014 23:47 (nine years ago) link
*hear that lonesome whistle whine*
― Dear Catastrophe Theory Waitress (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 22 September 2014 23:48 (nine years ago) link
James Redd and the Blecchs, just asking to ask
― Eyeball Kicks, Tuesday, 23 September 2014 10:28 (nine years ago) link
ask it, I won't understand some of the terms but I want to learn
― von Daniken Donuts (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 23 September 2014 16:26 (nine years ago) link
What was your question, JR & tB? Tbh, it's a stretch for me to do non-career-related theory work right now but I might be able to help if it's something I could answer off the bat or come back to in a while. I love the song so I'm curious to hear what the question was.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 28 September 2014 21:00 (nine years ago) link
Not really a theory question per as, more some questions or comments for those that post on the theory thread such as yourself.
1) It's kind of amazing that this simple little songwriting trick, creating a pattern based on keeping a melody note, the G here, constant over changing chords can be so effective in creating a memorable riff, especially such a common chord sequence. Or maybe it is not amazing at all, everybody should try it. Or maybe everybody does try it and a reasonable number succeed.
2) I have a hard time hearing what the riff actually is and separating from other guitar arpeggiating the chord triads.
3) In the bridge/breakdown, seems like he is playing that particular pattern five times, then six times, then I get lost, when the other instruments come in, although I might have thought it would help keep count. Maybe the beat gets displaced an eight note or something need to listen again.
― The "5" Astronomer Royales (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 28 September 2014 21:31 (nine years ago) link
Unless 2) is actually the same guitar playing all of it
― The "5" Astronomer Royales (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 28 September 2014 21:35 (nine years ago) link
I guess none of that is really a question. Unless the question is: do you see?
― The "5" Astronomer Royales (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 28 September 2014 21:44 (nine years ago) link
I haven't looked at the bridge yet but:
1) We've discussed the use of pedal points like this before, surely? One interesting recent example imo is Taylor Swift's "Love Story", where D (^1) and E (^2!) become a double pedal point over a variant of the I-V-vi-IV progression in D.
2) I think it's just one guitar? It's pretty easy to play on one guitar. From a scan, it looks like Dharma is playing it all here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdXfkkyI1nQ
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 28 September 2014 22:27 (nine years ago) link
"Love Story"
Also a "Romeo and Juliet" song
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 28 September 2014 22:29 (nine years ago) link
Yes, we've discussed pedal points before. Guess this is just another example.
Okay, one guitar. Still doesn't quite sound right to me if I play it on acoustic, don't have an electric, presumably because of the sustain.
― The "5" Astronomer Royales (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 28 September 2014 22:58 (nine years ago) link
Although maybe I am blaming instrument for my own butterfingers accidentally touching string and cutting off sound.
― The "5" Astronomer Royales (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 28 September 2014 23:20 (nine years ago) link
Recently learned that Sandy Pearlman assigned nicknames to all of them but only Buck Dharma stuck.
― The "5" Astronomer Royales (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 28 September 2014 23:41 (nine years ago) link
You can fake it by shifting A5-G5-F5-G5 under a pedal on open G.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 29 September 2014 21:31 (nine years ago) link
:P
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 29 September 2014 21:36 (nine years ago) link
1) It's kind of amazing that this simple little songwriting trick, creating a pattern based on keeping a melody note, the G here, constant over changing chords can be so effective in creating a memorable riff, especially such a common chord sequence. Or maybe it is not amazing at all, everybody should try it. Or maybe everybody does try it and a reasonable number succeed.---
now that you're mentioning this, it occurs to me that what's kind of neat about the "G" is that it is used both as a pedal point and a note that "anticipates" the G chord when the progression goes from Am to G and from F to G (since the G is always the last note before the chord changes).
― my jaw left (Hurting 2), Monday, 29 September 2014 21:44 (nine years ago) link
Yeah, that's a good point.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 29 September 2014 21:49 (nine years ago) link
http://open.spotify.com/user/bartonlewis/playlist/7gXeNaftfJnwNVHQDiZ1Zs
― Bobby Ono Bland (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 18 October 2014 16:56 (nine years ago) link
Wrote on "Running Scared" and "In Dreams"
http://thisiheard.blogspot.com/2014/11/roy-orbison-running-scared-1961.html
― timellison, Sunday, 16 November 2014 02:06 (nine years ago) link
Hey, thanks - I read some stuff on your blog a while back but forgot where so never found my back back. Love this kind of stuff.
― Eyeball Kicks, Tuesday, 18 November 2014 16:50 (nine years ago) link
The modulation up in the Eagles' "New Kid in Town" - not a half step up, not a whole step up, but a full minor third. How do they do it? By means of a borrowed iv chord used as a ii chord in the new key.
― timellison, Saturday, 6 December 2014 17:18 (nine years ago) link
Thanks, will check it out.
― Cutset Creator (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 6 December 2014 17:31 (nine years ago) link
Modulates back, too.
― timellison, Saturday, 6 December 2014 21:21 (nine years ago) link
That my axioms and my late beloved father's are anti-Rameau you can state quite openly. -C. P. E. Bach in a letter to Kirnberger
― Cutset Creator (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 8 December 2014 00:10 (nine years ago) link
*Revive*
For the seasonal analysis of Yuletide modalities.
― I Am The Cosmos Factory (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 24 December 2014 16:37 (nine years ago) link
Oh wait, think there is already a thread for that which is better left unrevived. Never mind.
― I Am The Cosmos Factory (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 24 December 2014 16:38 (nine years ago) link
The First Noel, "most likely from the 18th century"
"Unusual among English folk melodies in that it consists of one musical phrase repeated twice, followed by a refrain which is a variation on that phrase"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_First_Noel
― timellison, Thursday, 25 December 2014 19:20 (nine years ago) link
Interesting.
Had not known this:
In 1855, English musician William H. Cummings adapted Felix Mendelssohn's secular music from Festgesang to fit the lyrics of "Hark! The Herald Angels Sing" written by Charles Wesley.
― I Am The Cosmos Factory (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 25 December 2014 19:25 (nine years ago) link
Just eight years after Mendelssohn's death. He was popular in England.
― timellison, Thursday, 25 December 2014 21:39 (nine years ago) link
"One of Us Must Know (Sooner or Later)":
"And I told you as you clawed out my eyes/That I never really meant to do you any HAAAAAAAAA-a-arm"
That's the third scale degree he's singing over a IV chord.
― timellison, Friday, 2 January 2015 01:38 (nine years ago) link
You guys, "Different Worlds" by Maureen McGovern (theme song to the TV show Angie) has that same sequence of chords at the beginning of the verse as "Yesterday."
I - V/V/vi - V/vi - vi
― timellison, Saturday, 31 January 2015 18:52 (nine years ago) link
The changes are the same, but the second chord is minor in both -- I ii/vi V/vi vi
― L'Haim, to life (St3ve Go1db3rg), Saturday, 31 January 2015 20:39 (nine years ago) link
Aha! Thanks, St3ve.
― timellison, Saturday, 31 January 2015 21:23 (nine years ago) link
I like that you call it a two of six because that progression totally does suggest a two-five-one except that the last chord is minor.
― timellison, Sunday, 1 February 2015 17:57 (nine years ago) link
Hm, yeah I wouldn't say ii V i progressions in minor keys are unusual though. See e.g. this page on the minor ii V i. In a jazz context you'd more often see a half-diminished7 on the ii chord (aka m7b5), but the regular m7 chord seen in these songs can be made by borrowing from the melodic minor scale.
But that's one of the cool things about that tune, the way it starts on the major tonic as you expect, then takes a surprising detour to what ends up being a very strong setup for the vi chord, which at least in Yesterday ends up kind of fighting for the spotlight through the whole song.
But hmm again, Alan W. Pollack calls the 2nd chord ii/vi but he says it's Edim. I always heard Em7 there.
― L'Haim, to life (St3ve Go1db3rg), Monday, 2 February 2015 02:01 (nine years ago) link
In a jazz context you'd more often see a half-diminished7 on the ii chord (aka m7b5)While you are at it, the V chord often has a b9.
― Sweet Melissus (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 2 February 2015 02:29 (nine years ago) link
Looks likes a minor chord here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjpzTys0s9g
― timellison, Monday, 2 February 2015 03:19 (nine years ago) link
Since this thread popped up, I have a classical music question that arose listening to a lot of Beethoven symphonies lately -- is there a standard name for the technique of rhythmic displacement he often uses where he will move a melody entirely to either accented upbeats or accented weak beats so that it feels almost like the pulse has momentarily shifted? I noticed this is the 1st movement of #4, for example.
― walid foster dulles (man alive), Monday, 2 February 2015 21:39 (nine years ago) link
Wish I knew.
I have been learning some classical guitar etudes with lots of open strings, sometimes in drop D, with some fretted notes, two notes, triads, seventh chord shapes, shapes that don't really parse at all. Most of the chords will come from D, say, or the modal mix of D, but some will just be really dissonant, for instance,just playing a triad a half step away from the one in the key. Wondering what if there any is the classical terminology for this kind of thing, tried some jazz terms, sideslipping, planing, modal, nonfunctional, but nothing quite feels right.
― Up the Junction Boulevard (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 11 February 2015 12:38 (nine years ago) link
Examples?
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Thursday, 12 February 2015 19:47 (nine years ago) link
Do you want youtubes? Sheet music?
― Up the Junction Boulevard (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 16 February 2015 03:02 (nine years ago) link
If they are well-known or easily-available pieces, references to scores would be be easiest (e.g. mm. x-y in ....). Otherwise, if you could link the score or Youtube, I could take a look.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Monday, 16 February 2015 19:08 (nine years ago) link
You guys, what is the second chord in the verse of this song? It has a flat seventh in it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bmhuqOpV5g
― timellison, Wednesday, 4 March 2015 01:32 (nine years ago) link
Flat seven scale degree, I mean.
― timellison, Wednesday, 4 March 2015 01:33 (nine years ago) link
sounds to me (roughly) like Bmaj7-Amaj7-C#m7-F#7
so a bVIImaj7?
― future glown (crüt), Wednesday, 4 March 2015 01:52 (nine years ago) link
Oh excellent, I think you are right. Just playing an A major chord didn't sound right.
― timellison, Wednesday, 4 March 2015 02:08 (nine years ago) link
It just sounds like a major chord a wholestep down from the root to me, but maybe there's a maj6 in there, there's definitely something giving it a little extra texture
― walid foster dulles (man alive), Wednesday, 4 March 2015 02:27 (nine years ago) link
OK, I've been playing it with the sixth and I like that best. I don't know if that's what the guy is playing on the record, but it sounds good.
― timellison, Monday, 9 March 2015 01:17 (nine years ago) link
It occurred to me that the note the vocalist is holding over the second chord is the maj6 of that chord, so that's probably why it sounds right, whether or not the guitar is playing that note
― five six and (man alive), Monday, 9 March 2015 02:48 (nine years ago) link
Man, I love the chorus of Selena Gomez's "The Heart Wants What It Wants." Starts with a melodic line over the VI chord, same line over the iv chord, then it has this three-note descending line over the i chord followed by this awesome, sequential three-note descending line over the III chord where the last two notes are not chord tones (and the last fall is a p4).
― timellison, Tuesday, 31 March 2015 21:56 (eight years ago) link
Thread of remembering last year's Easter break music theory throwdown
― Is It Because I'm Blecch (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 5 April 2015 05:15 (eight years ago) link
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Sunday, 5 April 2015 21:08 (eight years ago) link
this is convincingly Lydian-sounding, though i suppose it's probably better described as a change of key/level
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmcsA6D8a1E
― example (crüt), Wednesday, 8 April 2015 20:22 (eight years ago) link
"Sugar and Spice" by the Cryan' Shames modulates down a whole step towards the end of the song instead of going up a whole or half.
― timellison, Tuesday, 30 June 2015 21:44 (eight years ago) link
Just now came across an interesting roundup review of three recent Jazz Theory books here: http://jjs.libraries.rutgers.edu/index.php/jjs/article/download/89/74
― (Don't Go Blecch To) Reddville (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 22 November 2015 22:15 (eight years ago) link
I posted a few things here about a month ago: an old published article on a Smith Brindle guitar piece and two recent conference presentations on 20s blues songs.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 16 January 2016 21:57 (eight years ago) link
Replace "4" with "a" in the URL as always.
― EveningStar (Sund4r), Saturday, 16 January 2016 21:59 (eight years ago) link
Cool!
― Bewlay Brothers & Sister Ray (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 16 January 2016 22:03 (eight years ago) link
First chord of "Starman" seems to be what I think of as a Flamenco chord, Bflat chord under an E, Bb Lydian some might call it.
― Starman Jones said it's 2 legit 2 quit (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 20 January 2016 03:52 (eight years ago) link
No seventh through.
― Starman Jones said it's 2 legit 2 quit (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 20 January 2016 12:39 (eight years ago) link
I'm hearing A with that chord and not E.
― timellison, Wednesday, 27 January 2016 05:37 (eight years ago) link
Bb Maj 7? Or a whole different chord?
― Look at that Pavement POLL (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 27 January 2016 05:41 (eight years ago) link
I heard it as what would be a B flat barre chord with an open E instead of an F on top. But my ear is lousy, who knows. Will check again come the morn.
― Look at that Pavement POLL (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 27 January 2016 05:44 (eight years ago) link
OK, I am hearing that high E. It seems like there's a lower A in there somewhere, too.
― timellison, Wednesday, 27 January 2016 06:33 (eight years ago) link
Hm. Maybe certainly there is an A in the chord when it goes to F. And the "telegraph" lick is an A.
― Look at that Pavement POLL (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 27 January 2016 15:00 (eight years ago) link
This guy is playing it like me, butThis other guy puts the A in the bass like you do.
― Look at that Pavement POLL (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 27 January 2016 15:14 (eight years ago) link
Wrote on the Strawberry Alarm Clock's "Pretty Song from Psych-Out." Basic idea was to see how many key centers it has and I end up saying seven. Such a great song!
― timellison, Monday, 1 February 2016 00:09 (eight years ago) link
re starman: it sounds almost like a b-flat major triad and an a-minor triad being played at the same time? May be two guitars or a very oddly tuned guitar.
― on entre O.K. on sort K.O. (man alive), Monday, 1 February 2016 04:55 (eight years ago) link
Possible.
― Blecch Country Rickroll (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 1 February 2016 05:18 (eight years ago) link
Feel like it goes to F, maybe you are hearing the top three notes of Fmaj7, unless there is not F in the bass, just the A minor triad. Perhaps the Bb chord is struck and still ringing when the other chord is played.
― Blecch Country Rickroll (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 1 February 2016 05:46 (eight years ago) link
What is third chord of "Little Red Corvette"? Seems like it definitely changes from verse to chorus. Both start F# G#. Then for chorus third chord is a Bbm, but on verse it is some kind of Bbm9 ( no third)- like an Fmin triad first inversion over a Bb.
― RIP Skeletons in the Closet (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 15 May 2016 15:21 (seven years ago) link
For consistency probably should call those first two Gb and Ab.
― RIP Skeletons in the Closet (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 15 May 2016 16:11 (seven years ago) link
Okay maybe related chord of Db in that place on the chorus every other time.
― RIP Skeletons in the Closet (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 15 May 2016 16:37 (seven years ago) link
Sorry to not have attempted to respond to this James Redd, but do not own a copy of the song.
Wrote on Camper Van Beethoven's "Folly," from the third album:
http://thisiheard.blogspot.com/2016/07/camper-van-beethoven-folly-1986.html
― timellison, Saturday, 9 July 2016 17:58 (seven years ago) link
S'okay, Tim it is a pretty simple song, and popular and on YouTube.
― Hare in the Gated Snare (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 9 July 2016 18:05 (seven years ago) link
Yeah. Do you still hear the ninth in the Bb minor chord?
― timellison, Saturday, 9 July 2016 19:13 (seven years ago) link
I haven't listened in a few weeks. Took a little break from listening to The Artist.
He is known for playing the ninth in chords though, especially in a major chord, often without a third.
― Hare in the Gated Snare (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 9 July 2016 19:28 (seven years ago) link
Have you noticed the raised 6th in the bg vocals on the first chord of the chorus of "Rolling In The Deep"? I just heard that for the first time. Weird and interesting and I wonder what motivated that decision!
― fgti, Friday, 11 November 2016 17:29 (seven years ago) link
Yeah, no idea.
― timellison, Tuesday, 15 November 2016 04:00 (seven years ago) link
The verses on R.E.M.'s "9-9" start on the consequent rather than the antecedent line of the lyrics (i.e., if it's seven lines and you're looking at them as antecedent and consequent, it's BABABAB).
― timellison, Wednesday, 16 November 2016 03:17 (seven years ago) link
"Fox on the Run" is in B mixolydian and then E ionian in the chorus, right?
― timellison, Thursday, 22 December 2016 17:47 (seven years ago) link
Will listen for it when I can over the next couple of days, maybe on the plane tomorrow!
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Friday, 23 December 2016 00:02 (seven years ago) link
Me too. A good holiday project, like the Great Eastern Throwdown upthread vis-a-vis "Sweet Home Alabama."
― Stars on 45, Where Are You? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 23 December 2016 01:53 (seven years ago) link
Another mixolydian song:
http://thisiheard.blogspot.com/2016/12/the-bangles-real-world-1982.html
― timellison, Wednesday, 28 December 2016 05:21 (seven years ago) link
(Just got to "Fox" and I think I agree with you.)
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Monday, 2 January 2017 02:04 (seven years ago) link
Revive! For annual Easter weekend "Werewolves of London" vs. SHA throwdown.
― TS Hugo Largo vs. Al Factotum (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 15 April 2017 13:13 (six years ago) link
The most chaotic I-IV-V song:
http://thisiheard.blogspot.com/2017/04/public-nuisance-magical-music-box-1968.html
― timellison, Tuesday, 18 April 2017 17:56 (six years ago) link
Hm, that is pretty interesting. Thanks for sharing it.
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Friday, 21 April 2017 04:20 (six years ago) link
wow that's a great tune!
― bought 2 raris, went to chili's (crüt), Friday, 21 April 2017 04:38 (six years ago) link
For future reference: http://www.jargstorff.us/2011/bebop-scales/. Looks reasonably organized and thorough.
― Shpilkes for a Knave (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 24 April 2017 10:45 (six years ago) link
Edited the Public Nuisance post because it was impossible to follow and new one on an '83 Jonathan Richman song.
― timellison, Saturday, 29 April 2017 04:17 (six years ago) link
Hey guys, I have a fairly easy question: does this chord have a name?http://i.imgur.com/wPmsfGn.jpg
Sorry if that tab is written in an unfamiliar format. To clarify, the low E is muted, the A + D are fretted at the third fret, the G is fretted at the second fret, and the B and high e are open. It's basically an E major chord shape, but moved one fret up.
I use it a lot and when I was trying out pedals today in Guitar Center (yeah, like I need more pedals — I know, I know) I was kind of hitting it over and over while twiddling knobs, one of the store clerks asked me what chord I was playing when I realized I actually had no idea.
― Austin, Sunday, 30 April 2017 06:13 (six years ago) link
Fmaj7#11
― Shpilkes for a Knave (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 April 2017 10:45 (six years ago) link
Or maybe Fmaj7#11/C, the way you are playing it
― Shpilkes for a Knave (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 April 2017 10:59 (six years ago) link
Seems like you could also let the low E ring or play the low F there as well.
― Shpilkes for a Knave (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 April 2017 11:06 (six years ago) link
That chord is used in the opening to "ocean size"
― calstars, Sunday, 30 April 2017 11:31 (six years ago) link
I figured it had to be some sort of variant of the Fmaj7 family. In fact, that's always how I play Fmaj7: just adding the first fret on the B and leaving the high e open.
Thanks =)
― Austin, Sunday, 30 April 2017 18:37 (six years ago) link
Dorian Vs Lydian FITE
― calstars, Sunday, 30 April 2017 18:39 (six years ago) link
Another chord name question: what is this one called?http://i.imgur.com/7coXdFA.jpg
To clarify: both the low E and high e are muted, the A is fretted at the third fret, D at the second fret, G at the fourth fret, and B at the third fret.
I also use it very frequently and I figure I should know what it is if I'm going to be playing it.
― Austin, Thursday, 4 May 2017 01:40 (six years ago) link
Cmaj9
― Sorted Out For I Zimbra (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 4 May 2017 01:42 (six years ago) link
that's a major 9 chord with no fifth
C E B D
― bought 2 raris, went to chili's (crüt), Thursday, 4 May 2017 01:43 (six years ago) link
The steely special
― calstars, Thursday, 4 May 2017 01:48 (six years ago) link
I thank you again!
That shape is also really nice to just go up and down the fretboard with. It really helps me get new ideas started.
― Austin, Thursday, 4 May 2017 02:04 (six years ago) link
Cmaj7sus2
― calstars, Thursday, 4 May 2017 12:55 (six years ago) link
I think "Cmaj9" is a better label for that chord than "Cmaj7sus2". "Sus" usually indicates that the third of the chord has been replaced by the suspension, which is not the case here. The D is even voiced as a 9th above the root here; it is a textbook maj9 chord.
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Thursday, 4 May 2017 13:01 (six years ago) link
(Personally, I would prefer not to describe anything as a suspension unless it is actually prepared and resolved like a classical suspension but I'm weird.)
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Thursday, 4 May 2017 13:06 (six years ago) link
Maybe some of us have misunderstood or misused a term or concept here and there over the years, but I'd like to think none of us have ever sounded like that fyre festival guy.
― Trelayne Staley (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 7 May 2017 14:11 (six years ago) link
Yeah, that was cringingly hilarious.
― Austin, Sunday, 7 May 2017 14:19 (six years ago) link
I had to examine the harmony vocal part on the chorus of "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds" - turns out there's one fewer note in the melisma than the lead vocal part.
― timellison, Saturday, 27 May 2017 02:51 (six years ago) link
More chord questions!
This guy:http://i.imgur.com/UnpVaGs.jpg
That is: low E open, A at seven, D at five, G open, B at seven, and high e open.
Does this even have a name? It must, right?
― Austin, Tuesday, 30 May 2017 17:34 (six years ago) link
Emin11
― Guidonian Handsworth Revolution (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 30 May 2017 17:36 (six years ago) link
Oh wait I misinterpreted what you said never mind
― Guidonian Handsworth Revolution (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 30 May 2017 17:44 (six years ago) link
So EEGGF#E?
Em sus2
― calstars, Tuesday, 30 May 2017 17:52 (six years ago) link
Yeah, although I think it is better to call it Em add 2
― Guidonian Handsworth Revolution (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 30 May 2017 17:54 (six years ago) link
I actually only have one song where I play that chord. It gets into some hazy territory for me, as I actually don't keep any of my guitars in standard tuning. Because I prefer such heavy gauge flatwounds, I tune down to D and capo from there. The song where I play that chord is in D# (capo at the first fret), making the notes D#D#F#F#FD#.
― Austin, Tuesday, 30 May 2017 18:53 (six years ago) link
The Mamas and the Papas - "No Salt on Her Tail"
I guess you'd call it a bridge at 0:56. Anyway, an eight-bar section that starts on the subdominant. First four bars are:
1. IV2. ii3. IV4. vi - IV
Fifth bar starts on a iii chord, but does it stay on it? Or does it go to a I chord for the third and fourth beats? The musicians seem to be playing different things.
― timellison, Tuesday, 25 July 2017 22:00 (six years ago) link
What happens at the end of the chorus in "Gypsys, Tramps & Thieves?" Just a hesitation? One extra beat somewhere?
― timellison, Friday, 4 August 2017 18:08 (six years ago) link
Good question
― Barkis Garvey (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 August 2017 18:41 (six years ago) link
re: "No Salt On Her Tail," it moves from iii on the first half of the measure to vi on the second half of the measure.
― crüt, Friday, 4 August 2017 18:49 (six years ago) link
Gypsies, Tramps & Thieves -- I hear it as a bar of 5/8 (where the break and "but every night..." is) followed by a bar of 4/4 (with the little mallet lick and "and lay their money down"). There are some 3/4 bars in the verses too.
― change display name (Jordan), Friday, 4 August 2017 19:14 (six years ago) link
crüt, I think the melody suggests that it should go to D minor there, but it doesn't sound to me that the acoustic guitar does that.
― timellison, Friday, 4 August 2017 19:24 (six years ago) link
I hear it as a bar of 5/8 (where the break and "but every night..." is) followed by a bar of 4/4
I think it happens right there too but I think it's 5/4. Weird thing is, it's an agogic accent on beat four in that bar of five. And then maybe what sounds like an agogic accent two beats later unless you're clued in to the fact that it's actually a downbeat.
― timellison, Friday, 4 August 2017 20:07 (six years ago) link
Hate it when that happens
― Barkis Garvey (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 4 August 2017 20:11 (six years ago) link
5/4 if you're counting double-time, sure. I don't know what agogic means but I know what you're saying. It definitely knocks you off balance if you don't know it's coming.
A friend who is a Radiohead superfan just sent me this:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p_IHotHxIl8&feature=youtu.be
For the studio version, they probably thought it was a pretty funny joke to have everything hit on the "uh" (as in 1-e-and-uh) but then take out all the drums so there's no context anyway.
― change display name (Jordan), Friday, 4 August 2017 20:20 (six years ago) link
Thought you guys might get a kick out of trying to suss out where the verses and whatever other parts of the song there are start and end on this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNa9-INcLec
― timellison, Tuesday, 28 November 2017 00:02 (six years ago) link
There's a minor five chord in Don't Go Back to Rockville!
― timellison, Monday, 8 January 2018 08:35 (six years ago) link
It really strikes me as one of the most characteristically country things about that song, but no idea what the precedent for that might be (or if there is one).
― timellison, Tuesday, 9 January 2018 00:20 (six years ago) link
Oh, interesting. I always used to think that was the moment it stopped sounding like 'just' a country song.
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 18:41 (six years ago) link
I love that part, though!
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 21:40 (six years ago) link
I'm glad you brought it up. It was fun to work it out this morning.
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Tuesday, 9 January 2018 21:42 (six years ago) link
I and my colleague were just accepted to present an analysis of "Blues for Allah" at the Society for Music Theory conference in November.
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Monday, 30 April 2018 19:00 (five years ago) link
Cool...maybe you can share it here too
― calstars, Monday, 30 April 2018 20:02 (five years ago) link
the whole record?
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Monday, 30 April 2018 20:19 (five years ago) link
Just the epic title track but we might consider some different versions of it.
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Monday, 30 April 2018 20:45 (five years ago) link
I'll be happy to share it here afterwards btw.
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Tuesday, 1 May 2018 00:41 (five years ago) link
Nice!
― timellison, Tuesday, 1 May 2018 14:01 (five years ago) link
This is the proposal we submitted, that outlines what we're going to do, with some diagrams: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Qb88EO6jgXan_urdNYEebfE2gZemyrgL/view?usp=sharing
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Tuesday, 8 May 2018 22:30 (five years ago) link
― macklin' rosie (crüt), Tuesday, June 24, 2014 5:31 PM (three years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tTq6Tofmo7E
― cr.ht (crüt), Tuesday, 15 May 2018 01:18 (five years ago) link
Oh cool. I love the Lydian mode.
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Tuesday, 15 May 2018 01:21 (five years ago) link
My heard always hurts a little when I read classical terms I don’t know like 6/4 chords or Common Tone Diminished Seventh Chord.
Sorry I don’t have any Lydian examples. Feel like I once read in some music history book that long ago it was the default major mode, more so than the Ionian, but it’s been awhile,
― The Great Atomic Power Ballad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 7 September 2018 10:29 (five years ago) link
Or maybe that which we now call Ionian used to be called Lydian.
― The Great Atomic Power Ballad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 7 September 2018 10:33 (five years ago) link
Or that it was Glareanus who introduced the Ionian mode, which had already existed as a Lydian with a natural 4.
― The Great Atomic Power Ballad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 7 September 2018 10:38 (five years ago) link
Are you looking for explanations of these?
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 7 September 2018 10:44 (five years ago) link
Well, yeah
― The Great Atomic Power Ballad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 7 September 2018 11:31 (five years ago) link
6/4 chord = a triad in second inversion (e.g. C/G). The numbers come from the intervals above the bass note. These chords have very specific functions (passing, arpeggio, neighbouring, cadential) in common practice music.
Common Tone Diminished Seventh Chord: this one's a little trickier. These are dim7 chords but they are not functional dim7 chords (in the way that viio7 is). They are chromatic harmonies and essentially serve to embellish functional harmonies, especially I or V. The root of the functional harmony is a common tone with the dim7 chord while the other voices are one step away. For instance, D#dim7 could work to embellish a C major chord in the key of C: C is a common tone between the two chords (7th of D#dim7, root of C), D# and F# are chromatic pitches one semitone away from E and G, respectively, and A resolves by step to G. These are mainly found in Romantic music.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 7 September 2018 12:02 (five years ago) link
So yeah, the CTo7 chord usually precedes the chord it is 'embellishing'.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 7 September 2018 12:03 (five years ago) link
They are found most often in major keys.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 7 September 2018 12:14 (five years ago) link
For an easy guitar example with proper voice leading, play D#dim7 on strings 4 to 1 on frets 1-2-1-2. Resolve to C/E on the same strings, voiced 2-0-1-3
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 7 September 2018 12:53 (five years ago) link
That was helpful, thanks
― Cruel Summerisle (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 7 September 2018 22:03 (five years ago) link
This came about because of:https://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/viewtopic.php?t=105686
― Cruel Summerisle (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 7 September 2018 22:21 (five years ago) link
Aw, I remember Steve from the emusictheory forum.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 7 September 2018 22:32 (five years ago) link
I found some other posts on another thread where a guy mentioned his Royal Conservatory textbooks and I thought it might be you.
― Cruel Summerisle (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 7 September 2018 22:37 (five years ago) link
Also came upon mention of the Neapolitan 6th, if you have time to elucidate that as well.
― Cruel Summerisle (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 7 September 2018 22:41 (five years ago) link
On the Delcamp board? I think I did post there once or twice at one point; not sure if I discussed RCM books there. They're used by virtually everyone in Canada who studies classical music tbf.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 7 September 2018 22:41 (five years ago) link
Neapolitan 6th = a major triad built on bII, in first inversion. Most commonly used in minor keys. Functions as a pre-dominant; a chromatic substitute for ii (or iio6), m/l.
e.g. Bb/D in the key of Am. As it is spelled D-F-Bb, you can see how close it is to both iv (Dm) and iio6 (Bdim/D).
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 7 September 2018 22:44 (five years ago) link
Thanks. m/l?
― Cruel Summerisle (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 8 September 2018 11:20 (five years ago) link
Yeah, there was no reason to qualify that. It's a chromatic alteration of or substitute for the supertonic triad.
Here's a functional progression with good voice-leading: Am (voiced 0-x-2-1-0 on strings 5 to 1) - Dm (0-2-3-1 on strings 4 to 1) - Bb/D (0-3-3-1 on strings 4 to 1) - E7 (2-1-3-0 on strings 4 to 1) - Am (voiced 0-x-2-1-0 on strings 5 to 1). In Roman numerals, that's Am: i-iv-N6-V7-i. You can both how smoothly it follows iv and how well it resolves to V7: the lowered ^2 falls by the interval of a diminished third to the raised ^7.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Saturday, 8 September 2018 12:58 (five years ago) link
― The Great Atomic Power Ballad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, September 7, 2018 5:33 AM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
this is basically correct. in Ancient Greek music theory, the Lydian diatonic scale is more or less equivalent to today's Ionian mode.
― crüt, Saturday, 8 September 2018 13:26 (five years ago) link
https://www.amazon.com/Ptolemy-Harmonics-Translation-Commentary-Bibliotheca/dp/9004115919
I was fortunate to be able to check this out of my college library for an extended period of time. I wish it were cheaper; if I ever have $$$ I'll buy a copy. It's pretty fascinating stuff!
― crüt, Saturday, 8 September 2018 13:28 (five years ago) link
Thanks, Sund4r. I can certainly see the voice leading with my eye, but it still sounds a little, um, interesting when I try to play if
― Cruel Summerisle (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 8 September 2018 13:35 (five years ago) link
Play it
― Cruel Summerisle (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 8 September 2018 13:45 (five years ago) link
What is it that sounds off?
One of the most famous examples of the N6 chord is in the second half of m. 3 of the Moonlight Sonata: http://www.musictheoryexamples.com/neapolitan/N6j.htmlThere's another good example in m. 8 here: http://www.musictheoryexamples.com/neapolitan/N6h.html . Really, any of the 'straightforward examples' here should work: http://www.musictheoryexamples.com/neapolitan.html
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Saturday, 8 September 2018 14:24 (five years ago) link
It doesn’t sound off, I’m just not used to listening to that particular sequence of changes
― Cruel Summerisle (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 8 September 2018 14:35 (five years ago) link
Would it be right to say that the progression from the minor iv chord to the Neapolitan to the dominant chord basically features a chromatic of A to Bb to B? That this is the main thing that's going on? That moving up to Bb suggests that you continue up to B and voila, there's your dominant chord?
― timellison, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 03:11 (five years ago) link
basically features a chromatic MOVEMENT of A to Bb to B
― timellison, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 03:12 (five years ago) link
No, as the supertonic is lowered in the Neapolitan (Bb instead of B in this example), it needs to resolve downwards, usually to the raised leading note (G#), not upwards to the diatonoc supertonic (B).
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 14:20 (five years ago) link
*diatonic
Some theorists would say the Bb is actually resolving to A (the tonic) via G#, which is probably more accurate. The key principle is that altered notes resolve in the direction of their alteration.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 11 September 2018 14:29 (five years ago) link
I just played it again and, sure enough, I wanted the Bb to go down to the G#.
― timellison, Tuesday, 11 September 2018 23:49 (five years ago) link
Right on
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Thursday, 13 September 2018 00:42 (five years ago) link
Was there a thread somewhere about chord progressions that feel like an endless, unresolving loop? I have heard these referred to as “revolving door chord progressions”
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Sunday, 23 September 2018 14:52 (five years ago) link
That discussion got kicked off when fgti wrote an article about “Get Lucky,” iirc. Thought it might have been on this thread.
― Harper Valley CTA-102 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 23 September 2018 14:55 (five years ago) link
Ah, can see Sund4r cut and pasted some of the discussion from another thread here in 2014. Think that other thread is the one you are looking for.
― Harper Valley CTA-102 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 23 September 2018 15:02 (five years ago) link
That particular discussion on the Worst Music Writing Thread, looks like, but having trouble loading and linking to the starting point right now. Perhaps there were some other threads as well with discussions of similar topics.
― Harper Valley CTA-102 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 23 September 2018 15:20 (five years ago) link
The discussion I am thinking of started here: OK, is this the worst piece of music writing ever?although the original link doesn't work anymore.
― Harper Valley CTA-102 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 23 September 2018 15:43 (five years ago) link
So I will put a fresh link here: http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/culturebox/2014/03/daft_punk_s_get_lucky_explained_using_music_theory.html
― Harper Valley CTA-102 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 23 September 2018 15:44 (five years ago) link
I don't know that changing the key really makes things easier for the lay reader to understand
― crüt, Sunday, 23 September 2018 16:03 (five years ago) link
Fixed Do vs. movable Do, the most endless and tedious debate ever
― fgti is for (flamboyant goon tie included), Sunday, 23 September 2018 17:32 (five years ago) link
The first time I read a piece of music described as "cyclical" it was about PiL's "Albatross" and I got really into the idea of chord progressions that work like ouroboroses. My favourite of all of these remains "In September" ('tis the season) and the way it only fleetingly alights on the I-chord and otherwise creates an aural effect of an endless and exciting Mario Kart track
― fgti is for (flamboyant goon tie included), Sunday, 23 September 2018 17:34 (five years ago) link
I read an interesting discussion of cyclical chords and structures in a book called, believe it or not, What to Listen for in Rock: A Stylistic Analysis, by Ken Stephenson. Believe I may have posted something about it upthread.
― Harper Valley CTA-102 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 23 September 2018 18:06 (five years ago) link
So here's a Q, and I have an answer and an argument for it but I'm curious what others say:
What key is Trenchtown Rock in? Is it in (a) G (b) C or (c) switches between G and C?
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Monday, 24 September 2018 01:55 (five years ago) link
Is this a variant on the “Sweet Home Alabama”/“Werewolves of London” conundrum?
― Harper Valley CTA-102 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 24 September 2018 01:57 (five years ago) link
in a way, but I think there's a solution to this one
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Monday, 24 September 2018 02:02 (five years ago) link
Listening to a Youtube video, C feels like the tonic to me on first listen/playthrough. Although you do have G on strong bars in the verse, the melodic movement feels like it's outlining movement from ^5-^1 in C, with resolution on C. The chorus seems really clearly in C to me, where you have a I-V-IV progression in C, with C in the harmony and melody on strong bars and on the title line. The movement to Am in the bridge makes sense to me as movement to vi.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 28 September 2018 18:08 (five years ago) link
Yeah, I got C too, and I got t that from the melodic movement in the verse -- on "thing" ("one good thing about music") he sings an F natural over the G chord, which pulls toward C
― Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Friday, 28 September 2018 18:26 (five years ago) link
Trenchtown Rock is in C. The "One good thing about music" line follows the chords V - II (maj) - IV - I. The "verses" could be argued that they're in a-minor.
We're taught in school that in minor keys, the 6th and 7th notes of the scale are variable-- can be raised and lowered. In major keys, the 4th and 7th notes of the scale can be raised and lowered respectively, and frequently are. The effects of these adjustments create what I describe as "tonal ambiguity", but are frequently overzealously discussed as perhaps implying "modes" or "keys the song isn't actually in". In the case of "Sweet Home Alabama", I disagree with anybody who suggests the chord progression is V - IV - I (even the composers themselves) as the melody clearly functions as if it is within a I - bVII - IV progression.
The raised-fourth often misleads listeners (including myself) into believing that the song is in a different key-- historically, a II (maj) chord is a well-worn trick, a "secondary dominant" (i.e. a V in the key of V). It's a wonderful sound. I think of the raised-fourth as the "sound of the mystical".
One of my favourite instances of a raised-fourth are in Grizzly Bear's "Two Weeks", where the verses imply "Lydian" mode-- (not actually Lydian mode to my ears, but a play on what I call "skyscraper fifths", when you stack fifths upward: C - G - D - A - E - B - F#, and the resultant chords that are created-- it's the backing vocals "whoa oh oh" that imply these stacked fifths-- tough to describe in text, easy to demonstrate on a piano). The raised fourth is hammered home in the lead vocal: "I told you I would stay," which dumps into a lovely natural-fourth IV chord that begins the verse, where the fourths are consistently lowered.
The BEST instance, though, like, favourite moment ever, is in "This Guy's In Love With You" (Bacharach/David). (Assuming the song is in C), the verses have some harmonic adventures, but mostly with the flattening of specific pitches:
I - IV - IV - bVII (amazing little duck to the bVII there)I - IV - III (!) - vi (that's a secondary dominant to the vi chord... III - vi in "C-major" is V - i in "a-minor")
Then, fuck a duck, but the root of vi ("a-minor") becomes a Bb 4 2 (conservatory spelling, a Bb-natural7-over-A in jazz-speak I guess)
Which in turn goes to a IV (F) into a iv (f-minor)-- again, classic! (this is "don't let me be the last to know" or whatever)
Then a nice extended cadence with some suspensions into the chorus ("My hands are shaking, don't let my heart keep breaking" etc. whatever the words are)
And then the chorus, best thing ever: I - IV ("I need your love" sprinkle sprinkle sprinkle)-- same shit as the beginning to the verses, melodically too, but with added Liberace.
Again: I - IV ("I want your love")
And then the clouds part and the vocals hit that raised-fourth hits: "Say you're in love". But! The raised-fourth isn't in the chords yet. It goes I - vi7 (!!) - II7 (!) - V - V7 The raised-fourth "in" hits the third of the secondary dominant before the bass moves down to reform the vi7 as a II7 ("A" moves down to "D", and the "F#" takes on meaning as the leading-tone to a cadence in the key of "G").
Suddenly what we thought was so stable is not stable at all. Mystical sound of the raised-fourth! Herb Alpert has a moment of fantasy that the woman he's singing to is, in fact, in love with him-- a different world than this one-- a world where we're in the key of G, not the key of C-- but this moment is fleeting-- the V turns to V7 (which contains the un-raised fourth, an "F", which decisively puts us back in the key of "C")-- the fantasy is over-- "if not, I'll just die" Herb sings-- the literal chords of this song are telling us that this is not a song about triumphant love requited, but a song about love unrequited.
Anyway "Trenchtown Rock" is in C. Debating whether or not it's in C or G is basically just asking ourselves, "Are the 7ths lowered? or are the 4ths raised?" It really comes down to the larger structure of the song, and how the melody is finding its cadence. But yeah: C.
― fgti is for (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 28 September 2018 19:19 (five years ago) link
I think that first part of the song is in G mixolydian. The D chord does not sound like a borrowed chord, it sounds like a dominant.
― timellison, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 05:22 (five years ago) link
Or maybe I shouldn't call it mixolydian with the D major chord in there. I just think G very much feels like the tonic, so G with a bVII chord. The melodic shape Sund4r mentions could be thought to outline the move to the IV chord instead of outlining the tonic.
― timellison, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 05:24 (five years ago) link
It strikes me that if you're going to say it's in C because of the larger structure of the song, then you should also say that the part that seems to be in A minor is also in C.
― timellison, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 05:29 (five years ago) link
I would probably do that too, actually, although I wouldn't say you were wrong to analyse A minor tonality there. I would feel differently if there were a clear cadence in A minor.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Wednesday, 3 October 2018 12:59 (five years ago) link
xp I suppose it is possible, but I still disagree. The "feel no pain" cadence is so textbook plagal. The way that the bg vocals come in for that cadence drives home the point, for me
But it's interesting... the idea that the chord progression on the verses might be I - V - bVII - IV (ie. the song is in G) seems to me to have more precedent than the idea that it's V - II(maj) - IV - I (ie. the song is in C). I can't think of any specific examples off the top of my head but I - V - bVII - IV is a very familiar chord progression. It'd be interesting to compare the way the melody functions between "Trenchtown Rock" and another song that is more decisively in (a theoretical) G.
― fgti is for (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 3 October 2018 13:02 (five years ago) link
There was a song on the tip of my tongue for like last five minutes and now I'm realizing it's "Bone Machine" by Pixies and that's i - V - bVII - IV (i.e. the song is in a minor key)
― fgti is for (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 3 October 2018 13:05 (five years ago) link
Ha, I just listened to and sang/played "Sweet Home Alabama" and heard the tonic as D clear as day during the verses and choruses. I think I probably argued for G upthread.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Wednesday, 3 October 2018 13:07 (five years ago) link
Yeah. A secondary point but the second line of the first verse also starts on a high C.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Wednesday, 3 October 2018 13:11 (five years ago) link
Yeah. I was flipping through my mental repository of songs to try and think of a song that had a similar/same chord progression that also began on a I with the melody on the root
And for some reason all I could think of was fucking "Clocks"
The one good thing about Coldplay is when it hits you feel no shame about whatever crap you're calling "music" and putting out into the world
― fgti is for (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 3 October 2018 14:02 (five years ago) link
Lol
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Wednesday, 3 October 2018 14:11 (five years ago) link
How about “Lay Lady Lay?”
― timellison, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 19:26 (five years ago) link
Oh, I forgot - that one's I-iii-bVII-ii. Close, though!
― timellison, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 22:10 (five years ago) link
RIO
― timellison, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 22:17 (five years ago) link
(Duran Duran)
Ever used this tool? Pretty cool:
https://www.hooktheory.com/trends#
― timellison, Wednesday, 3 October 2018 22:19 (five years ago) link
How do you search for minor keys with that tool?
I learned Weezer's "Say It Ain't So" for a student. It's a bit of an interesting case. The melody definitely points to Eb as the tonic imo, with a strong melodic cadence at the end of the chorus. Harmonically, though, you only really get Eb on the second half of the second bar of a two-bar progression: in the intro, it's Cm7-G(add m13 add m10)-Ab-Eb. In the verse, the first two chords become more triadic; in the chorus, they're all power chords. So it's essentially vi-III (chromatic mediant: V/vi?) - IV-I if you want to use RNs, which on its own feels like maybe it should be i-V-VI-III in C minor.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 5 October 2018 17:15 (five years ago) link
I... cannot understand why anybody would think "Say It Ain't So" is in a minor key
Let's get whatever about the bridge (which is in Bb) and how the transition back into the guitar solo (which is in Eb-major) is an actual lift from Beethoven
The melody starts on Bb and moves to C and then down to B and back up to C and then jumps down to a F - Eb cadence on the I chord (which is Eb-major)-- as it, we're in and around the proposed "tonic" of c-minor already but... well, the cadence of those verse melodies is always moving away from c-minor to Eb-major (because the song is in Eb-major)
I wonder if the choruses imply any sort of fealty to the key of c-minor beyond the first chord that is strummed? ah no, they don't, at all, they are obviously moving toward an Eb-major chord, but that's probably wise because this song, which is in Eb-major, is in Eb-major
― fgti is for (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 5 October 2018 21:28 (five years ago) link
Sorry if I'm being a bit of a c-minor-word about this I just... feel exhausted by the fact that we need to examine every single chord progression from the perspective of queer theory
― fgti is for (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 5 October 2018 21:31 (five years ago) link
No, no, the song is definitely in Eb major. I just think it's interesting that you have the major III chord where it is and that you only get the I chord on the second half of the second bar of the two-bar pattern. If I just saw the chord progression by itself, without the melody line, I might assume that it is in C minor; that's all I meant.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 5 October 2018 21:47 (five years ago) link
I just... feel exhausted by the fact that we need to examine every single chord progression from the perspective of queer theory
This is A+ though.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Friday, 5 October 2018 21:59 (five years ago) link
I just think it's interesting that you have the major III chord where it is and that you only get the I chord on the second half of the second bar of the two-bar pattern.
It is interesting, but maybe we should just not be so quick to think of that moment as being an abnormal resolution point? Because it does feel very much like a resolution point and a natural one.
― timellison, Saturday, 6 October 2018 01:14 (five years ago) link
There have to be a decent number of songs that do that. Every time they go through the progression, you can hear them staying on the tonic Eb chord when they get to the next measure.
― timellison, Saturday, 6 October 2018 01:15 (five years ago) link
Well, the verses in "Trenchtown Rock" worked in that way too, which is why I thought of it. The choruses in that song put the I chord at an obviously accented place in the pattern, though.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Saturday, 6 October 2018 03:49 (five years ago) link
Out of curiosity, I just plugged vi-III-IV-I in the form of C: Am-E-F-C into your hooktheory link (which seems to transpose songs automatically since I know several of the results [including "Say It Ain't So"] are not actually in C). Afaict, pretty much all of the results have the I chord at the start of a measure if not at the start of the progression. Some are examples like the one from Muse's "Starlight", where only one section of the song uses this progression.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Saturday, 6 October 2018 03:57 (five years ago) link
― timellison, Monday, January 8, 2018 12:35 AM (nine months ago)
Strangely, there's one in So. Central Rain, too.
― timellison, Monday, 22 October 2018 23:40 (five years ago) link
Heading to San Antonio for SMT tomorrow: https://cdn.ymaws.com/www.amsmusicology.org/resource/resmgr/files/san_antonio/program-sanantonio.pdf
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 30 October 2018 17:53 (five years ago) link
Ha, I only noticed now that this is included on the that programme: Friday Evening Concert - 7:30 Kansas plays Point of Know Return (Tobin Center)
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, 30 October 2018 18:07 (five years ago) link
San Antonio is beautiful - have fun. Is your paper on the whole album or just on the long title track?
― timellison, Wednesday, 31 October 2018 01:18 (five years ago) link
The title track
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Wednesday, 31 October 2018 01:26 (five years ago) link
M3lv1n's the Deadhead and wrote his dissertation on them. He's more of a historian/musicologist (as opposed to theorist), though, and asked me to help with the analysis of this tune, which led to this presentation.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Wednesday, 31 October 2018 01:49 (five years ago) link
I decided to try and figure out how to "Renaissance Fair" by the Byrds, and man, that song is cool. I think it's really a case where the guitar is playing chords but they don't have the normal function, they're not providing the harmony for anything. They're a contrapuntal element.
― timellison, Monday, 5 November 2018 04:14 (five years ago) link
how to PLAY
A lot of interesting presentations about popular music at SMT that I think would interest you guys, including a whole panel on ambiguous tonality in pop, ha. I'll get back with more details soon.
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Thursday, 8 November 2018 15:41 (five years ago) link
No, as the supertonic is lowered in the Neapolitan (Bb instead of B in this example), it needs to resolve downwards, usually to the raised leading note (G#), not upwards to the diatonoc supertonic (B).― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, September 11, 2018 9:20 AM (two months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink*diatonic― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, September 11, 2018 9:20 AM (two months ago) Bookmark Flag Post PermalinkSome theorists would say the Bb is actually resolving to A (the tonic) via G#, which is probably more accurate. The key principle is that altered notes resolve in the direction of their alteration.― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, September 11, 2018 9:29 AM (two months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, September 11, 2018 9:20 AM (two months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― The nexus of the crisis (Sund4r), Tuesday, September 11, 2018 9:29 AM (two months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Going over some jazz theory and technique today, it occurred to me that it might help JR&tB to compare this movement to the concept of chromatic enclosure of the tonic in jazz playing.
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Friday, 23 November 2018 18:56 (five years ago) link
Thanks for that.
Came to post this link about CST:https://ethaniverson.com/received-wisdom-jeff-goldblum-chord-scales-the-ireal-book-and-kamasi-washington/?fbclid=IwAR0PrHcFLE00BzLATuRF11cJeIx4rnV7DZ10O2HuCLmAFIuIdePLmMn4Kok
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 6 January 2019 20:27 (five years ago) link
Oh, interesting. I have a lot of inchoate thoughts on this, studying and teaching more jazz these days.
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Sunday, 6 January 2019 21:34 (five years ago) link
(which I will expand on soon)
Cool. I mostly agree with what he says there. Will wait for you to expand before I expand or expound thereupon.
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 6 January 2019 21:46 (five years ago) link
Might not be able to wait too long though ;)
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 00:30 (five years ago) link
On second and third reading, honestly, it seems more reasonable than I thought on first hasty reading in the grocery store, esp keeping in mind that it was aimed at students. I do find chordscales are good for helping my (below uni level) guitar students break out of rock-based soloing habits. It makes sense that they are a simplified abstraction, in the way that the rule-based method we use to teach 'Bach chorales' is probably different from what Bach was thinking when he was harmonizing hymns (in a language he spoke!) for his church: a useful tool/hack to draw on but not any kind of final word.
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Monday, 7 January 2019 02:51 (five years ago) link
Right. Chords scales are a useful first step, as you point out, but often they get taken to a ridiculous extreme, as if there was a one-to-one correspondence between the chord and the chord-scale assigned to it and everybody almost always only ever played that official scale when and only when they saw that chord symbol on the chart, without taking the overall harmonic movement into effect or using chromaticism or even just using other equally valid or perhaps more appropriate scales.
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 03:12 (five years ago) link
Also you- and fgti, and anybody else- might want to come over to this thread: KNOWER: funky, quirky electro duo with jazz chops Louis Cole and Genevieve Artadi
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 03:19 (five years ago) link
I spent like five years of high school/college jazz education frustratedly trying to identify/articulate what that ethan iverson piece says, because I knew from day one that chord scale playing just didn't sound anything like good records.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 7 January 2019 03:21 (five years ago) link
The Bible of CST is the Mark Levine jazz Theory book, which Iverson mentions in the article. In addition to the overall problems with the methodology, there are some clearly outrageous statements in there, like something to the effect that nobody plays the Aeolian Scale ( because it’s corny? I forget) or The Harmonic Minor Scale (!), because it doesn’t fit nicely over any one chord.
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 03:28 (five years ago) link
Think I posted this critical review of the book -and the theory- at least once before, probably on this very thread but here it is again: http://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.00.6.1/mto.00.6.1.rawlins.html
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 03:31 (five years ago) link
Ted was surprisingly into CST, although from a more sophisticated perspective than Aebersold-type stuff I think. I never really got that deep into it because I couldn't fucking stand it. It was like trying to teach myself to trash everything that made music sound good to me.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 7 January 2019 03:32 (five years ago) link
Maybe I will try to ask one of his other students about it, well the one who is a nice guy and is still alive.
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 03:38 (five years ago) link
Think the best, most concise write up of Jazz Theory I ever read was the Lightning Tour at the beginning of David Berkman’s Creative Practice book.
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 03:44 (five years ago) link
It seems to me- based on a bit of anecdotal evidence- that it is somewhat easier, more cut-and-dried for a teacher just to say “Play this scale!” and perhaps “and play it with this exact fingering!” rather to let you come up with your own ideas, especially in a one-on-one situation. If you are playing in an ensemble hopefully you can play some of what you want as long as you pay some lip service to the pedagogical scale in question.
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 03:50 (five years ago) link
Yeah, also given the fact that Ted was ultimately my teacher for only two semesters that were in themselves very broken up by hospital stays, other students are better suited to speak to how he taught it than I am.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 7 January 2019 03:52 (five years ago) link
A v close friend and constant collaborator Thom Gill plays with Knower, but I haven't ever listened
Everybody should listen to Thom Gill though, really, everything is amazing, this is the song that I'll have playing at my wedding though
https://isthisthomas.bandcamp.com/track/triumph
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 7 January 2019 03:59 (five years ago) link
(the song is a kidding-not-actually-kidding love song to Bieber btw)
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 7 January 2019 04:00 (five years ago) link
"the posturing of one world / becomes the intent of another" is a very beautiful lyric imo sorry for some non-theory related posts I just really like Thom ok I'll go listen to Knower now
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 7 January 2019 04:02 (five years ago) link
Enjoyed that song, thanks
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 04:06 (five years ago) link
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, January 6, 2019 10:50 PM (eleven minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
I've never really remotely tried to flesh it out, but I've had this grain of an idea in my mind for a while of a different way to teach jazz theory as an "in motion" concept rather than a static concept, with much more emphasis on how to connect chords rather than what to "play over" specific chords, and much more emphasis on the interplay between melody, harmony and rhythm (including an understanding of how landing on or passing over a certain note has a different effect at different points in the bar). Maybe this has already been done.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 7 January 2019 04:06 (five years ago) link
Okay, I guess the thing about the Aeolian is that he came up with a weird chord to go with it.
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 04:47 (five years ago) link
Are you saying that professional jazz educators are telling people to think of playing over e.g. mm. 5-8 of "Autumn Leaves" strictly in terms of Locrian - Mixolydian b9b13 - Aeolian or Dorian instead of e.g. also thinking about tendency tones (e.g. leading note-tonic and/or submediant-mediant resolution at the cadence)?
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Monday, 7 January 2019 11:39 (five years ago) link
I don’t have first hand experience of that but I believe quite a few do, yes.
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 12:37 (five years ago) link
Most people would say to play Locrian natural 2 (natural 9, or sometimes confusingly called #2 or #9) for the first one though, sixth mode of the Jazz/Melodic Minor.
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 12:40 (five years ago) link
Actually, maybe I did have experience of this long ago.
What I have been told recently is to play the V7 bebop scale (adding passing tone of a major 7th) over the whole thing, at least the first two bars.
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 12:42 (five years ago) link
And resolve to a chord tone of the i chord, of course.What I don’t remember being told to do but what I do over the i chord is to play what some call the Composite Minor, which I believe you might be familiar with it.
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 12:45 (five years ago) link
Another thing about out-of-box CST is that it is all seven note ( heptatonic) scales/modes, no mention is made of pentatonic scales major or minor ( maybe they figure these are already known from rock!) or hexatonic scales -blues scale, major scale without a fourth- or bebop scales- modes of major, Natural Minor or Harmonic Minor with an added passing tone.
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 12:52 (five years ago) link
Minor scale with both the natural and raised ^6 and ^7, I assume?xp
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Monday, 7 January 2019 12:59 (five years ago) link
Yup.Also the bebop scale I have been instructed to play over the turnaround in Autumn Leaves is the fifth mode of the Harmonic Minor of the tonic - which has a b9 and b13, as you said- some people call it a Phrygian Dominant, I think, plus the passing tone of a major seventh.
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 13:08 (five years ago) link
I mostly use Jim Grantham's Jazzmaster's Cookbook, which does get into those other scales early on and devotes a chapter to melodic structure, along with charts and recordings, classical principles of melody and harmony, and stuff like Matt Warnock's page. I also refer to Terfenko's textbook, which doesn't get to CST until Ch. 8.
xp Oh yeah, Grantham calls the Phrygian Dominant scale the Mixolydian b9b13 scale.
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Monday, 7 January 2019 13:27 (five years ago) link
But I mean, I just think of all these scales as hacks to help your fingers find a more intricate melodic line that works over the chords on the spot. The overall tonal movement is still the main point. Passing notes are, like, passing notes.
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Monday, 7 January 2019 13:30 (five years ago) link
Yes, exactly. Which is the problem with a naive approach. Really you’ve got to find a good mix of chord tones, (possible) scale tones and chromatic tones.I like what I’ve seen of Matt Warnock’s page, don’t know those other sources, will take a look.
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 13:37 (five years ago) link
Sometimes, often actually, I try to think of playing some of these scales as fingering exercises rather than musical musts. For instance it is interesting to me that if you add the major seventh to a regular Mixolydian scale you get a four note chromatic run from the major sixth to the root, whereas if you add it to the scale we just mentioned there is a four note chromatic run from the (flat) seventh to the flat 9. In any case, playing such scale trains the fingers to get comfortable playing those chromatic runs within the context of a larger scale and hopefully trains the ear to hear how they fit in. Things that make you go hmmm...
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 13:54 (five years ago) link
Hard to get fingers to do chromatic runs when they are so used to the spaces between notes. Like walking instead of running
― calstars, Monday, 7 January 2019 13:59 (five years ago) link
I'm not qualified to talk about jazz theory but I like that article. And when I was in Richard Davis' classes, I don't remember him ever talking about what to play over a certain chord (except for once talking about Monk's use of the whole tone scale and how it works over anything). His whole approach seemed like an attempt to create a non-pedagogical environment (like the one he came up in) within the university, which some people clicked with and others really didn't. It was more about fostering a certain mentality and approach to the music, and he would most likely tell a story about some musician or other for you to glean the right lesson from. Also, of course, a lot of taking students who were trying to show off or play way beyond themselves and breaking it down to the important basics (singing the melody, learning the lyrics when possible, thinking about the 'why' of the music).
― change display name (Jordan), Monday, 7 January 2019 15:24 (five years ago) link
I just consulted my spreadsheet and it tells me that for homework you had to call Richard Davis’s answering machine and sing scales (but did you have to chop wood for him?) . Do you remember what scales those were?
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 15:46 (five years ago) link
There's also where the chord falls within the progression. Like, the Emin7 at the end of the first A section going back to the Amin7 has a different feel than the one going into the bridge, and that one has a different feel than the first one *in* the bridge, and that one has a different feel than the one played for two beats at the beginning of the descending progression. I mean you technically could play the same thing "over" each of these Emin7, but your solo is going to sound a lot better if you think about where you are in the song and where that particular Emin7 is leading (and where it came from).
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 7 January 2019 16:03 (five years ago) link
Definitely.
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Monday, 7 January 2019 16:43 (five years ago) link
Haha James.
(they were just major scales, maybe minor too, but it was more about identifying my weak point of having never used my voice to sing pitches, and even more so doing it at 5 a.m. to show that I was serious about being in the class)
― change display name (Jordan), Monday, 7 January 2019 16:45 (five years ago) link
I get IA when I think about the years I spent struggling with wrongheaded approaches to teaching jazz.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 7 January 2019 16:45 (five years ago) link
You should have skipped school and just bought that book Sund4r mentioned instead.
― Spirit of the Voice of the Beehive (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 January 2019 16:59 (five years ago) link
Tbh I already knew the melodic and phrase structure principles from classical theory so I skip those chapters myself.
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Monday, 7 January 2019 18:18 (five years ago) link
Can anyone recommend any books/essays/articles on the music theory of later Coltrane?
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 17 January 2019 21:44 (five years ago) link
I was listening to "Don't You Want Me" by Human League while ordering coffee and it occurred to me that I didn't actually know what the tonal centre of the song was. The hook is minor-key, but the verses/chorus sound more like an alternating IV-V to major (which never appears) rather than an alternating bVI-bVII.
So I came home and listened to it and examined the lyrics and it's really interesting how the pre-chorus goes (if we're in minor): I (major!)-ii?-IV-V ... (chorus) bVI-bVII, but that "ii?" contains both raised and lowered thirds so it's this kind of spicy ii? II? chord.
The lyrics over the verses are entirely nostalgic and reminiscent toward what both singers consider a happier time in their life, but the pre-chorus is present-tense and is in a more threatening minor-key.
I had some bizarre theory that the implication of a major-key tonal centre was entirely affiliated with "past-tense reminiscence" in the lyrics, and the minor-key tonal centre was entirely affiliated with the male singer's "present-tense creepy threats". The fact that the alternating IV-V (or is it bVI-bVII) chords over the chorus never resolves to major is a nice compliment to the unanswered question ("Don't you want me, baby?") in the lyrics. The fact that the song doesn't answer the question but returns to the minor-key hook essentially answers that question-- present-tense, minor key, this relationship is over.
― flamboyant goon tie included, Saturday, 26 January 2019 17:00 (five years ago) link
Is that ii a diminished chord?
My first thought is that it's all in A, minor throughout and the parallel major in that pre-chorus (but maybe not throughout the pre-chorus - if that's a diminished chord on B there, then that's suggesting it's going directly back to the minor key on that second chord in the passage).
― timellison, Sunday, 27 January 2019 08:02 (five years ago) link
I think it might be Bdim? I thought I was hearing an F in one voice in the keyboard harmony. There's definitely a D in the melody line there. Also, is the last chord in this section E or E5? I wasn't sure I heard a third there. I'm pretty sure the third chord is C, btw, which would be III not IV if you analyse the key as A minor (bIII if it's A major).
I see fgti's point. The melody in the verse suggests C major: it starts on C, the first line ends on E, and the second ends on G. So the F-G movement in the verses and choruses does feel like it makes sense as IV-V in C, esp since the chorus heads straight back into the verse, although you never get a resolution to I. The first pre-chorus section ("Don't, don't you want me?/You know I can't believe it...") seems like it could be a deceptive resolution to vi in that context.
Given that there's no cadence on a C chord but there are resolutions to Am (on a title hook), the song begins and ends on Am, and the main riff is an A minor pentatonic figure, Occam's razor probably favours Tim's analysis: mostly A minor with some modal mixture in the second pre-chorus?
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Sunday, 27 January 2019 15:15 (five years ago) link
That's the same analysis I had, it's minor key (with that surprise major in there)
Sorry I guess I should really check what key we're in before typing, my mind just never goes that way ugh
― flamboyant goon tie included, Sunday, 27 January 2019 15:19 (five years ago) link
Oh, I thought you were hearing the verses and choruses as IV-V in C. Then we're all on the same page, cool.
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Sunday, 27 January 2019 15:21 (five years ago) link
I am hearing them that way, they imply that. I'm suggesting that the duality of the tonality (verses and choruses in C, prechoruses and hook in a) reflects the indecision and dual-voices of the lyrical narrative
And the final repeated resolution to the a-minor hook at the end not only confirms the song is in a-minor but also that this love affair did not resume
― flamboyant goon tie included, Sunday, 27 January 2019 15:24 (five years ago) link
Oh, yeah, totally. That's a v good analysis imo.
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Sunday, 27 January 2019 15:27 (five years ago) link
"Livin' on a Prayer" does almost the exact reverse of this.
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Sunday, 27 January 2019 15:31 (five years ago) link
I mean, it's not exact but Em-C-D in the intro and verses feels like i-VI-bVII in E minor (when we're hearing about Tommy's and Gina's woes), only becoming recontextualized as vi-IV-V when we get G in the pre-chorus and chorus (when there's the message of hope), which is what the song ends on (after a couple of truck-driver modulations). No modal mixture, though (unlike "Wanted Dead or Alive").
― Locked in silent monologue, in silent scream (Sund4r), Sunday, 27 January 2019 15:55 (five years ago) link
my New Year's resolution is to spend less time on the IV chord
― ⅋ (crüt), Thursday, 31 January 2019 01:34 (five years ago) link
― Only a Factory URL (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 31 January 2019 01:38 (five years ago) link
Discussion of tonality and pitch organization in a Sonic Youth deep cut here: Time takes its crazy Poll... Sonic Youth: Washing Machine
― silent as a seashell Julia (Sund4r), Thursday, 14 February 2019 02:48 (five years ago) link
(a song that's never been a favourite for me btw, but which I'm getting more out of because of this)
― silent as a seashell Julia (Sund4r), Thursday, 14 February 2019 02:51 (five years ago) link
Here is a theory questions I have been pondering/arguing about with respect to a different tune with a similar progression: https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theory/21273-theory-question-night-day-key-c-what-function-f-7b5.html
― Theorbo Goes Wild (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 4 March 2019 01:07 (five years ago) link
After reading the thread, looking at the chart, and listening to Sinatra's recording once, this response seems pretty good:
I like to think of it as IVmaj to IV min. The F#-7b5 is basically an Fmaj7 with an F# as the root. So whenever I see this #IV-IVmin device it's much easier to think IV maj to IV min....
If I saw something like this written out in a classical score, I would probably read the F# in the lowest voice of the harmony as a chromatic incomplete neighbour to the F in the next bar. You could read the F#m7b5 and the Fm7 as two altered IV chords - basically this is all IV with two apparent chords produced by chromatic voice-leading movement. I would also probably analyse the Ebdim7 as a voice-leading chord produced as a result of passing note movement in the two lowest voices (E-Eb-D and G-Gb-F) between iii7 and ii7. I don't really know that there would be a problem with applying this kind of analysis to this tune.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Monday, 4 March 2019 02:21 (five years ago) link
Thanks. Makes sense and I liked that analysis too. In the tune in which I first came across this sequence, Emily, the Eb7 is an A7, so I think you can safely think of that Eb7 as tritone sub for that A7.
― Theorbo Goes Wild (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 4 March 2019 02:46 (five years ago) link
Multiple jazz guys have said it is a tritone sub for the one. There is indeed some trick of subbing a diminished or half diminished I chord for the major I- “Stella By Starlight” is some kind of canonical example of that, I think- but I don’t care for that explanation with this sequence.
― Theorbo Goes Wild (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 4 March 2019 02:53 (five years ago) link
I would have definitely analysed Eb7 as a tritone sub for A7 but I believe that the chord is Ebdim7 in "Night and Day", not Eb7? At least it is on the chart I saw: F#m7b5-Fm7-Em7-Ebdim7-Dm7-G7-Cmaj7. As such, I think it is easiest to analyse it as an apparent voice-leading chord.
xp
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Monday, 4 March 2019 02:58 (five years ago) link
Oh yeah, you are right.In “Emily” the tune has modulated to D minor before this, with an A7 leading back at the end of every four bars. So it is interesting that in this case the A7 leads to an F#7b5, which can be used as a D9 no root, so you perhaps you might think there is just some minor/major trick going on.
― Theorbo Goes Wild (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 4 March 2019 03:01 (five years ago) link
I usually like this guys explanations: http://brunojazz.com/vt-half-diminished.htm
― Theorbo Goes Wild (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 4 March 2019 14:12 (five years ago) link
Guy’s
― Theorbo Goes Wild (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 4 March 2019 14:40 (five years ago) link
I guess there are times with songs that ostensibly have key signatures where...you're just not in any key at all. That seems to me to be the case with parts of "Incense and Peppermints." I think it certainly starts out in E minor (with a Dorian aspect), but I'm not so quick to say the chorus - E minor/Eb minor/D/A - is still in that key.
― timellison, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 02:53 (four years ago) link
The bridge, to me, seems to start out with a V/I in G, but then goes to an F# minor chord, which strikes me as phrase modulation. Then, it happens again, but seems to resolve on A major.
― timellison, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 03:02 (four years ago) link
It still feels like E minor/Dorian at that point to me. The chorus hinges on the chromatic descent E - D# - D - C#. I think the D# minor is subbing in for B major (the V chord).
― buttigieg play the blues (crüt), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 03:06 (four years ago) link
bridge is in D imo
― buttigieg play the blues (crüt), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 03:09 (four years ago) link
the F#m - A "should" resolve to D
― buttigieg play the blues (crüt), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 03:11 (four years ago) link
But that A in no way feels like a dominant chord to me!
― timellison, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 05:03 (four years ago) link
I can't hear the D to G as being I to IV either. It settles on the G.
― timellison, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 05:05 (four years ago) link
It does to me, too, when it's on the E minor chord and even the chromatic chord, but I can't help feeling that it, again here, seems to rest on that A chord.
― timellison, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 05:09 (four years ago) link
that is strange — I don't hear it resolving on the A chord at all!
― buttigieg play the blues (crüt), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 05:53 (four years ago) link
Plagal cadence on A.
The melody does go to A (over the D chord before it and the A chord).
How would you number that chord? I know it's different because it's modal, but is it a IV chord because E is still the root?
― timellison, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 06:06 (four years ago) link
Yikes! Why does chromatic harmony in a pop song move one to question the tonal centre?
Versei - IV - i - VI
Bridgei - vii - bVII - IV
There’s no question the bridge remains in e-minor, the song is defined by i - IV - i movement and the cycle of the bridge continues to reflect that
What I wanna know is what happens on the last bridge into the outro! That part of the song always mystified me
― flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:31 (four years ago) link
Hm well on another listen, that farfisa’s overtones are just complicating my perception of everything about this song. This actually might be the most subtly complicated song I can think of and it’s weird I don’t know any other songs by this weird band
― flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:36 (four years ago) link
sorry, when i said "chorus" earlier i meant bridge and likewise "bridge" meant middle 8
― buttigieg play the blues (crüt), Wednesday, 10 April 2019 13:43 (four years ago) link
Yeah I figured “bridge” meant “chorus”... the actual bridge (or middle 8) is v confusing! The ending too! I don’t have a piano on me rn
― flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 14:31 (four years ago) link
Why does chromatic harmony in a pop song move one to question the tonal centre?
I was responding above that I wasn't questioning it relating to the chromatic chord. The D to A that follows it feels like it settles on A to me, though, and there's zero pull back to E minor.
I'm calling that part the chorus, by the way.
The bridge (if that's what it is) - D to G to F# minor - those chords repeated once and then, likewise, feel like they LAND on the A chord to me.
― timellison, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 14:33 (four years ago) link
(And I realize it would be A mixolydian)
― timellison, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 14:34 (four years ago) link
Ya I get you. I’m hesitant to fall into modal descriptions in chromatic music like this BUT the prevalent open fifths in the vocal harmonies did make me think there was some compositional desire for that manner of interpretation
― flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 14:47 (four years ago) link
Alternating E major 7 and D major 7 with that movable bass in the outro?
― timellison, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 15:04 (four years ago) link
So, Picardy!
― timellison, Wednesday, 10 April 2019 15:50 (four years ago) link
Speaking of this weird band and their other songs, this is their masterpiece:
https://thisiheard.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-strawberry-alarm-clock-pretty-song.html
― timellison, Thursday, 11 April 2019 06:09 (four years ago) link
The Coldplay/Chainsmokers hit "Something Just Like This" came up in a presentation at SMT in the fall and it just came to mind now as an interesting case when I was thinking about chord progressions and tonality because of a dumb post about pop chord progressions on a classical music FB group. D is the clear tonal centre imo: the melody is completely centred around D, the song starts with D-A repetition in an upper voice, and there is a pedal point on D throughout the first verse and at times afterwards. (Wikipedia says it's in B minor but this seems very wrong to me.) However, I don't think there are any root position I chords at all until after the 3m mark here. (Second-inversion I chords, which don't classically have tonic function, are sometimes produced when the vocal melody places D and F# over As in the accompaniment, e.g. "Hercules and his gifts".) There are some D major arpeggios in the upper keyboard voice around 2:20. The bass motion for almost the entire song is ^4-^5-^6-^5 and we keep coming back to full-on IV-V-vi-V triads. (I imagine the way Bm works like a kind of tonic substitute harmony is why a Wikipedia author identified it as the key but the melody just doesn't support a tonal centre on B imo.)
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Tuesday, 28 May 2019 03:00 (four years ago) link
I actually like Coldplay and was just really feeling the mashup with that post
― flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 28 May 2019 13:03 (four years ago) link
Ha, yeah, I just thought it was funny that that was what came up when I searched for "coldplay" on this thread. I'm interested in more examples of pop songs with clear tonics that avoid or significantly delay the I chord. A Katy Perry song was mentioned on a theory forum I used to read some years back - "Last Friday Night", I think?
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Tuesday, 28 May 2019 14:01 (four years ago) link
(If anyone hears the tonic of "Something Just Like This" differently, I'm up for discussing that too but I think it's p clear. I saw an online chord chart that identified the key as G major which no imo.)
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Tuesday, 28 May 2019 14:03 (four years ago) link
it was a common trick for katy perry, i think fgti even wrote something for slate about teenage dream
― Accidentally Gets High By Touching LSD Left in Vintage Buchla (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 28 May 2019 14:26 (four years ago) link
That is correct, although I used "Teenage Dream" as an example (I think "Last Friday Night" is decisively in a minor key). I also cited in passing iirc EWF "September", Fleetwood Mac "Dreams" and "Viva La Vida"
― flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 28 May 2019 15:48 (four years ago) link
Ah, thanks.
― All along there is the sound of feedback (Sund4r), Tuesday, 28 May 2019 16:40 (four years ago) link
I probably just misremembered the Katy Perry song.
stevie nicks seems to use that trick a good amount in her songwriting--lots of circular progressions that never really settle in major or minor.
― Accidentally Gets High By Touching LSD Left in Vintage Buchla (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 28 May 2019 17:35 (four years ago) link
I think it intuitively comes to a lot of songwriters (and that charts and the resonance of particular tracks tend to favour songs that do it)... overall I don't think it necessarily needs to be an outright "denial of the tonic" so much as the tendency of certain songs to avoid it creates a harmonic buoyancy, this kind of not-settling that creates the sensation in the listener of "travelling"
― flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 29 May 2019 14:17 (four years ago) link
i don't know what thread to put this in so i'll put it here. i am losing my mind over how perfect this contraption is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F-vMXuyE5k&list=PLPYiCOgE6NBTQn3qAZUKeGQN8J8S72wz4&index=1
― big gym sw0les (crüt), Thursday, 30 May 2019 00:48 (four years ago) link
ugh, let me try that again
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3F-vMXuyE5k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jobhw89wiFc
― big gym sw0les (crüt), Thursday, 30 May 2019 00:49 (four years ago) link
I think "Last Friday Night" is decisively in a minor key.
I'm curious why! It ends on an F# major chord and I'm not sure that the melodies frame the notes of D# minor any more than they do F# major.
― timellison, Friday, 31 May 2019 01:20 (four years ago) link
Well like I said, pop songs are strengthened by tonic ambiguity and the main chorus melody is centred around the theoretical tonic of a major that never appears? Instead it keeps dipping to the minor where that “tonic” is the third and suggesting that it’s in a minor key and it works with the content and mood of the lyric
― flamboyant goon tie included, Friday, 31 May 2019 01:32 (four years ago) link
Yeah, I almost feel like the D# minor chord falling on the third measure of the four-bar cycle gives it enough resonance to register as a tonic. That's a weak rhythmic spot for the tonic to fall, but not as weak as the second measure would have been.
― timellison, Friday, 31 May 2019 02:09 (four years ago) link
it's the Get Lucky progression with the first two chords reversed
― big gym sw0les (crüt), Friday, 31 May 2019 03:37 (four years ago) link
the "tonic ambiguity" thing i think is typically pop songwriters loving the IV chord a whole lot. and they'll throw in the ii chord in order to switch up the bass note while keeping that IV feel going.
― big gym sw0les (crüt), Friday, 31 May 2019 03:46 (four years ago) link
(VI and iv respectively in minor, obv)
I feel like the reversal of those two chords makes for a more inventive and interesting progression than "Get Lucky." There's no way "Last Friday Night" is resting on B major just because the cycle leaves you there on a downbeat to end the song, whereas "Get Lucky" could easily end on a B minor chord.
― timellison, Friday, 31 May 2019 05:00 (four years ago) link
Somebody buy this book and report back: http://www.davecreamer.com/TheOctatonicSystem.html
― TS The Students vs. The Regents (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 15 June 2019 12:13 (four years ago) link
Seems like a lot of it is on Google Books.
― TS The Students vs. The Regents (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 15 June 2019 12:27 (four years ago) link
There’s some line in there where he describes bebop scales as a “rudimentary approach.”
― TS The Students vs. The Regents (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 15 June 2019 15:06 (four years ago) link
Recently came across this blog and from what I have read really like the way the guy thinks and explains: https://antonjazz.com/2012/11/dominant-scales/
― U or Astro-U? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 26 July 2019 20:11 (four years ago) link
Andreyev in the house!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLEwuo5R-tQ
― timellison, Wednesday, 7 August 2019 06:22 (four years ago) link
This master's thesis seems to have some interesting stuff in itHARMONIC RESOURCES IN 1980S HARD ROCK ... - OhioLINK ETD
― Another Fule Clickin’ In Your POLL (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 10 August 2019 21:04 (four years ago) link
This looks even betterhttps://www.amherst.edu/media/view/379212/original/Walser+-+Eruptions-+Heavy+Metal+Appropriations+of+Classical+Virtuosity+.pdf
― Another Fule Clickin’ In Your POLL (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 10 August 2019 21:56 (four years ago) link
Hm. Maybe not. It is kind of interesting though.
― Another Fule Clickin’ In Your POLL (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 10 August 2019 22:16 (four years ago) link
Not a theory question per se but I can’t remember what the relevant thread is so: how do I shot what beat the Hendrix version of “All Along the Watchtower” starts on?
― TS: “8:05” vs. “905” (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 21 August 2019 19:57 (four years ago) link
And of 3. It’s confusing because the crash hits, four bars later, on the and of 4, and the band doesn’t hit the 1 very cleanly. Good Q though, it confused me for a second, and I had never thought about it
― flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 21 August 2019 20:22 (four years ago) link
Here's a dumb question, because I am dumb when it comes to this stuff. In a lot of Latin music a common sound seems to be a minor key but with the major seventh used a lot, like in a montuno. What would you call this? I don't think it's one of the regular modes, right? Is it just always considered a passing tone?
― change display name (Jordan), Tuesday, 26 November 2019 18:44 (four years ago) link
Like say in the melody to this tune. Let me know if I'm mischaracterizing this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_M9Bv1FmwM
― change display name (Jordan), Tuesday, 26 November 2019 18:46 (four years ago) link
On first listen, isn't this mostly just harmonic minor? Or is there a specific harmonic structure or melodic movement going on that you're asking about? The sixth and seventh scale degrees are variable pitches in minor keys in standard functional harmony.
― No language just sound (Sund4r), Tuesday, 26 November 2019 21:07 (four years ago) link
Oh lol I guess it is just harmonic minor, I was just looking for the name of the scale. And I used to be obsessed with harmonic minor! But I think because I don't regularly interface with a melodic instrument (besides the computer), the specifics of scales always leave my head as soon as I'm done writing a part or whatever.
― change display name (Jordan), Tuesday, 26 November 2019 21:15 (four years ago) link
Heh, no worries. I've blanked on stuff like where Dvorak was from in front of a class before.
― No language just sound (Sund4r), Tuesday, 26 November 2019 23:24 (four years ago) link
She is from France
― that said, I’d prefer a single serving of you (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 27 November 2019 15:13 (four years ago) link
Young Spectralist at today’s event. Didn’t dig too much into his research area but interesting to talk to.
― Irae Louvin (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 29 November 2019 01:38 (four years ago) link
Let me throw out a challenge: I think this guy and his thread are wrong (or at the least am interested in arguing this idea starting from the opposite premise). I'm working out all of the reasons why but I'll put this out here now. This tweet is actually about halfway through his thread but it seems like the core proposal:
Let me throw a challenge out there: The Theory I curriculum should enable a student to be able to understand everything in the Billboard Top 10 at any given moment. That stuff should all be trivially easy to analyze.— Ethan Hein (@ethanhein) February 20, 2020
― With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Friday, 21 February 2020 18:24 (four years ago) link
Interested to see what you guys make of it.
― With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Friday, 21 February 2020 18:25 (four years ago) link
agree that theory curricula should broaden their foci, but i'mconfused by his analysis of the box. there's a huge string flourish that starts the song that clearly dates back to tension-creating crescendos that have existed in western music for centuries. and the beat seems to follow a fairly straightforward minor-key chord progression.
― ooga booga-ing for the bourgeoisie (voodoo chili), Friday, 21 February 2020 18:36 (four years ago) link
The point is that it's a modal i-iv-bVII progression, which isn't really part of the standard language of common practice functional harmony, as taught in your average undergrad classical theory course. You would need a raised leading note (i.e. A natural in the key of Bb minor in this case) and a V chord (an F major chord) at a cadence, generally.
― With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Friday, 21 February 2020 19:37 (four years ago) link
That's for the most part how 18th and 19th century European art music works but is comparatively common (but not nonexistent) in popular music since the rock 'n' roll era, unless an allusion to classical music or e.g. flamenco music is intended.
― With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Friday, 21 February 2020 19:39 (four years ago) link
*uncommon
― With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Friday, 21 February 2020 19:40 (four years ago) link
But, out of curiosity, what topics would you drop to make room for the broadening of the Theory I curriculum?
it's been a very long time since i've taken a theory class, but maybe focus less on traditional four-part harmony and spend a bit more time on the use of modes?
― ooga booga-ing for the bourgeoisie (voodoo chili), Friday, 21 February 2020 20:31 (four years ago) link
That's fair. It is what you would get if you went to a school that offers jazz theory. (Both classical and jazz theory are required classes at my alma mater, for instance.) I think one thing that annoys me about this genre of take (Hein's, not yours) is that they seem to ignore the diversity of curricula that do exist. There are even commercial music programs that are explicitly geared to people who want to make it onto the Billboard charts.
And I think that leads to one of my questions, which is why exactly it should be a goal of every Theory I course to be able to analyse the repertoire of the Billboard top 10 (a repertoire that is constantly changing anyway). What would students be doing with this? Are there enough careers that use that skill? Is there even that much demand from students for this? I'm not convinced.
― With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Friday, 21 February 2020 22:01 (four years ago) link
Starting with in-depth study of standard (classical and/or jazz) repertoires, which are substantial bodies of work with enough of a common language, still seems to me like a good basis from which to go ahead and tackle others, particularly newer and more variable ones.
― With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Friday, 21 February 2020 22:05 (four years ago) link
And I definitely do contextualize what I'm teaching and try to make clear that we are learning the language of one repertoire, not that e.g. V-I is the only way you can resolve tension in any music. I think many more recently published books would do the same, or they should.
― With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Friday, 21 February 2020 22:08 (four years ago) link
Trap Beats 101: find a nice soft sound, maybe a piano or bell tone with some top end rolled off. Write a two bar melody that feels fresh but uses as many half-steps as possible (this is the tricky part?). Then writing a moving bassline using the nastiest 808 sample possible, the notes don't matter so much as how well the frequencies respond on speakers. Add snares and hi-hats to taste.
― change display name (Jordan), Friday, 21 February 2020 22:09 (four years ago) link
you joke, but there are hundreds of youtube videos about that lol
― ooga booga-ing for the bourgeoisie (voodoo chili), Friday, 21 February 2020 22:10 (four years ago) link
that basically say the same thing you do
Idk that it's necessary to cover this in an academic context, since you can just go on Youtube. And most of the popular Youtube music theory people are pretty aware and open about the ways that doing things 'wrong' is key to the sound of a lot of rap and dance music (like taking a sample of a 7th chord and re-pitching the whole thing in house music for ex.).
xxxxp
― change display name (Jordan), Friday, 21 February 2020 22:12 (four years ago) link
Ha, at the last college where I taught, there was a required computers and music course where that would have definitely worked.xps!
― With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Friday, 21 February 2020 22:13 (four years ago) link
I will say that as someone who didn't study much theory and isn't very good at it, I learned just enough in my very stiff & traditional Theory 101 class to make me creatively insecure for a long time. Only recently have I felt more comfortable with breaking the rules or making up my own, and it would have been nice if there was more acknowledgement of this early on.
― change display name (Jordan), Friday, 21 February 2020 22:15 (four years ago) link
I do agree that theory should be contextualized in such a way that it is clear that what we are teaching is common stylistic conventions and patterns in order to guide work within an idiom, not ironclad rules and certainly not conventions that are universal outside the idiom.
― With considerable charm, you still have made a choice (Sund4r), Monday, 24 February 2020 15:20 (four years ago) link
Bc that does sound really unfortunate and it definitely can happen when we're not careful.:(
This seems odd:
Finally, a REAL BOOK with even *less* authentic chord changes! https://t.co/DNYQczdmE2— Ethan Iverson (@ethan_iverson) March 2, 2020
― Sund4r, Tuesday, 3 March 2020 02:53 (four years ago) link
Man, I’m trying to hear African Flower in my head with those changes and it...does not sound good. “What if we took an interesting composition and made the chord changes more on the nose and Mickey Mouse?”
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 3 March 2020 03:49 (four years ago) link
I don't even know where to start with this pic.twitter.com/yLtiziEyUC— Dan Donnelly (@incontrariomotu) March 7, 2020
― Sund4r, Sunday, 8 March 2020 02:32 (four years ago) link
You can start with middle A.
― Lipstick Traces (on a Cigarette Alone) (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 8 March 2020 12:56 (four years ago) link
true confessions: i keep opening this thread just to look at that again. there's something perfect about it i can't get into words.
dancing about architecture i guess ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
― Larry Elleison (rogermexico.), Tuesday, 10 March 2020 00:05 (four years ago) link
Yeah, you would have to work yo achieve that. The letter name labels for the white keys are all a fourth too high but the black keys are entrancing: the C# and D# labels are a 55th high but the F# is a third too high, which interval becomes an aug2 when you get to G#. Amazingly, the musical notation is actually accurate in terms of letter name but are displaced so low in register that they had to have been done by a troll: I can't imagine anyone beginning to read music over five ledger lines below the bass staff.
― Sund4r, Tuesday, 10 March 2020 14:51 (four years ago) link
*to
*a 5th not a 55th! Damn phone.
― Sund4r, Tuesday, 10 March 2020 14:52 (four years ago) link
Sent that to my daughter’s piano teacher and he was, um, annoyed to say the least.
― Lipstick Traces (on a Cigarette Alone) (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 10 March 2020 16:01 (four years ago) link
Usually nothing seems to bother him, aside from certain people in the news.
― Lipstick Traces (on a Cigarette Alone) (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 10 March 2020 16:03 (four years ago) link
Talked to a prof who is remotely teaching a rock history course. On the listening exam, she raised each song by a half step so the students couldn’t Shazam. But when students heard “Miss You” by the Stones and wrote “Etta James”, she knew who cheated and failed them.— Aimee Nolte (@AimN) April 3, 2020
― Sund4r, Friday, 3 April 2020 12:39 (three years ago) link
Wait are you following Aimee Nolte? She seems pretty good.
― Three Hundred Pounds of Almond Joy (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 3 April 2020 14:18 (three years ago) link
Idk who she idls tbh. Someone retweeted it and I thought it was funny.
― Sund4r, Friday, 3 April 2020 14:41 (three years ago) link
I know her because she’s friends with Adam Neely.
― Three Hundred Pounds of Almond Joy (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 4 April 2020 12:46 (three years ago) link
Can somebody explain Nolte's tweet to me? sorry idgi
― we have no stan but to choice (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 4 April 2020 13:17 (three years ago) link
Etta James cover of “Miss You” went through truck driver’s key change?
― Three Hundred Pounds of Almond Joy (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 4 April 2020 15:19 (three years ago) link
Hm, I didn't actually listen and check the keys of the two versions. They're both in A minor so idgi either now.
― Sund4r, Saturday, 4 April 2020 21:03 (three years ago) link
I just asked Aimee Nolte.
― Sund4r, Saturday, 4 April 2020 21:05 (three years ago) link
First contact!
― Three Hundred Pounds of Almond Joy (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 4 April 2020 21:16 (three years ago) link
Maybe the key change thing messed up the algorithm and decided the Etta James version was "closer"?
― Three Hundred Pounds of Almond Joy (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 4 April 2020 21:17 (three years ago) link
First became of Aimee Nolte, with this video I think.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nMiCg8sDQh4
― Three Hundred Pounds of Almond Joy (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 10 April 2020 15:45 (three years ago) link
Also wondering how often Sinatra sings a whole step down from the sheet music, based on two such examples.
― Three Hundred Pounds of Almond Joy (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 10 April 2020 15:46 (three years ago) link
My neighbor - another one! - played in the Clayton-Hamilton Jazz Orchestra for a while, which features largely in that video.
― Three Hundred Pounds of Almond Joy (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 10 April 2020 15:48 (three years ago) link
A bass player told me something interesting John Clayton told him about fingering.
― Three Hundred Pounds of Almond Joy (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 10 April 2020 15:50 (three years ago) link
I don't know how much y'all are interested in this stuff, but here's another unusual and interesting one to my thinking!
https://thisiheard.blogspot.com/2020/04/the-storybook-beads-of-innocence-1968.html
― timellison, Sunday, 19 April 2020 02:39 (three years ago) link
Alright, I have a pivot chord question for y'all.
Mamas and Papas, "Words of Love." Key of Ab with some mode mixture.
In the bridge, we have a phrase modulation to the key of F minor, but it moves back quickly. Chord progression is F minor - Bb minor - Gb - Eb.
So, it gets to the dominant of Ab at the end there to modulate back. But what do you call the Gb major chord? Which key is it part of and how does it lead to Eb?
― timellison, Tuesday, 5 May 2020 21:38 (three years ago) link
is it the bVII in the original key of Ab major?
― sleight return (voodoo chili), Tuesday, 5 May 2020 21:49 (three years ago) link
Yes! But somehow I don't feel like we're back in Ab yet. bVII is not a dominant prep chord that leads to V.
― timellison, Wednesday, 6 May 2020 00:24 (three years ago) link
Maybe the bridge is in Db, not Fm
― sleight return (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 6 May 2020 12:32 (three years ago) link
This type of movement is called "mediant movement" iirc, it's when your chord moves up or down "two steps" to a chord that seems unrelated, but for which there is one (or two) shared pitches.
The best example I can think of is C-major to Eb-major. Sounds like it should make no sense, but it does because of the commonly shared G between the two chords.
Firstly, "Words Of Love" is drawing from all corners of possibility within the key centre (Ab-major)-- there are ab-minor chords, bVII chords, weird implied secondary dominants, Cass is routinely singing the Gb over the Ab-major so it always feels unstable.
The bridge is not in f-minor just because it begins on an f-minor chord. We're still in Ab-major. It's a vi - ii - bVII - V progression, that's all.
The reason why Bb-minor connects to Gb-major so readily is that aforementioned "mediant movement"-- the two chords are connected by the shared Bb. Same goes for the following Eb-major chord. These chords don't seem connected (because they aren't, really) but that shared note connects them.
(What is even more interesting is when you get mediant movement where there are NO shared pitches, C-major to Eb-minor i.e., probably the loveliest dissonance out there)
― we have no stan but to choice (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 6 May 2020 14:01 (three years ago) link
The verse chord progression on this song is really fucking weird I gotta say. Ab-major - Gb-major - Cb-major - Bb-major (and then either A-major or Eb-major). What is that, I - bVII - bIII - II (bII)?
The trick is that the song is functionally in ab-MINOR, but they always feature the root chord as major. It's the same trick as on "You Keep Me Hanging On" (The Supremes)-- it sounds like for all intents and purposes the song is in a minor key, but whenever it comes back around to the I chord, there it is, we're major-- it's like a perpetually rising sun, or like an abusive partner who keeps treating you shitty and then apologizing
― we have no stan but to choice (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 6 May 2020 14:08 (three years ago) link
thanks for the analysis, fgti. never knew the name for that.
it sounds like for all intents and purposes the song is in a minor key, but whenever it comes back around to the I chord, there it is, we're major
doesn't 'gimme shelter' pull this trick, too?
― sleight return (voodoo chili), Wednesday, 6 May 2020 14:15 (three years ago) link
Yep. It's a common thing... any major-key song that prominently features a bVI is gonna have this effect (bVI containing the flattened third of the I chord, i.e., creating a minor-major ambiguity regarding the key centre)
Here's the wiki for what I was describing. "Chromatic mediant" is the correct term, it seems. The wiki acknowledges divergent definitions of the term, as to whether or not they should include mediant relationships with no shared pitches, which Allen Forte describes as "doubly-chromatic mediants".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chromatic_mediant
― we have no stan but to choice (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 6 May 2020 15:00 (three years ago) link
So if there are two shared pitches (C-major to e-minor) it's a diatonic mediantIf there is one shared pitch (C-major to Eb-major) it's a chromatic mediantIf there are no shared pitches (C-major to eb-minor) it's a doubly-chromatic mediant
― we have no stan but to choice (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 6 May 2020 15:01 (three years ago) link
Historically, chromatic mediant relationships are saved for surprising modulations to B-sections in the Classical period-- see the Mozart example on the wiki, or think of Chopin's glorious pivot from Ab-major to E-major for the B-section of the famous Ab-major Polonaise.
More common in historical examples-- and I'm sure there's another term for it, but it's effectively the same thing-- is a more unguent "mediant movement" from a dim-7 where there are TWO or THREE shared pitches: f#dim7 to fm7, or f#dim7 to F7. Because dim-7ths, as a stack of minor 3rds, are "rootless", and can be built on any of the pitches-- f#dim7 = adim7 = cdim7 = ebdim7-- one could interpret the movement from f#dim7 to F7 as being, actually, a mediant movement (adim7 to F7). Check out Chopin's famous e-minor Prelude to see this movement happening literally every two bars.
― we have no stan but to choice (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 6 May 2020 15:19 (three years ago) link
I do think there's a modulation to F. It could rest there if they'd chosen to. It feels like a new key to me, and this is because of what you say about the home key of Ab, that there's the constant minor third and minor seventh. If it's a minor modality in Ab, then F is not a relative minor.
But VC, I like your thinking on Db as the related major scale to explain the Gb chord.
― timellison, Wednesday, 6 May 2020 17:14 (three years ago) link
For the bridge to be a proper modulation to f-minor, I would need to hear some kind of a cadence in that key, and I don't-- but that's my own interpretation!
― we have no stan but to choice (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 6 May 2020 18:15 (three years ago) link
Catching up on this now, I definitely agree with fgti that a modulation generally requires a cadence in the new key (by definition). Esp since vi can work as a tonic substitute, and since the singer sings the tonic over it here, I don't see the grounds for hearing a modulation to the relative minor key here. I can see the mediant logic; also bVII is a common modal substitute for the dominant (or a pre-tonic chord anyway) and I hear it that way here - bVII-V sounds like a prolonged dominant to me, particularly with the melody emphasizing ^2 over both chords. The progression could easily resolve to I after the bVII.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Friday, 8 May 2020 16:59 (three years ago) link
The verse mixes modes but I do hear it in Ab major. The first two phrases both start on the major ^3 and the minor ^3 that starts the next one feels like the borrowed pitch to me.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Friday, 8 May 2020 17:04 (three years ago) link
This isn't bad for examples of bVII in 60s pop: http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/VOLUME22/Magnificent_flat-seventh.shtml
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Friday, 8 May 2020 17:16 (three years ago) link
Maybe I shouldn't use the term "modulation" if it's going to be sticky. But here's my issue with it - I don't see what the point is of considering that first F minor chord in relation to Ab. Has the note F even been used in the entire song up until that point?
I was actually trying last night to come up with some other songs where requiring a cadence in order to say that a note has been tonicized is problematic for me and I came up with "See Emily Play." You can say that the chorus has not tonicized E just because that's the first chord, but I don't think that's how it's experienced in real time. When it goes to the A five bars later, then yeah, that E has morphed into the dominant of A, but again, I don't believe that's how it's experienced as heard.
― timellison, Friday, 8 May 2020 20:09 (three years ago) link
"The verse mixes modes but I do hear it in Ab major."
There's four iterations of the chord in the verse, though, and third one is Ab minor.
― timellison, Friday, 8 May 2020 20:13 (three years ago) link
And I realized in learning the song how much the third in the vocal melody at the very end feels like a Picardy.
― timellison, Friday, 8 May 2020 20:14 (three years ago) link
Not sure I follow. The phrase ends with a V-I cadence in Ab and makes perfect sense in Ab. Using vi as a tonic substitute is pretty standard practice - it provides variety and a change of mood for the bridge but I don't know why you would not hear the submediant of Ab there. It doesn't need to appear earlier in the song for listeners to know that it fits in the key. Even if there WERE a modulation to F minor, the new key would still be heard in relation to Ab, as the relative minor, surely: how could you unhear the tonal context? xps
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Friday, 8 May 2020 20:21 (three years ago) link
Don't the first two lines of the vocal melody start on C? I'll listen again but it's surprising that you would hear it as a Picardy.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Friday, 8 May 2020 20:22 (three years ago) link
Was typing this as you were posting the last two comments, perhaps it adds context to my thoughts:
"There's four iterations of the chord in the verse, though, and third one is Ab minor."
Sund4r, I know you were acknowledging the mode mixture. I tend to agree with seeing it generally as Ab major with bVII chords. The consideration of the tonic note at the beginning of the bridge is something I consider a separate matter.
I will say the Gb major chord in the bridge does not feel a dominant substitute in the key of Ab for me. It feels like a pivot.
― timellison, Friday, 8 May 2020 20:24 (three years ago) link
"Don't the first two lines of the vocal melody start on C?"
Oh sure, but at the very end you have that very prominent Cb right before she goes up to the C natural.
― timellison, Friday, 8 May 2020 20:33 (three years ago) link
Hearing the song in a different key for two bars seems like an overcomplicated explanation to me but I don't know how Gb could work as a pivot chord there even if you did. I mean, it would be a root-position Neapolitan chord in F minor and bVII in Ab but that seems pretty non-idiomatic.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Friday, 8 May 2020 21:28 (three years ago) link
For me, I don't care if it's overcomplicated. I want to know, most of all, what a given chord is doing, what is its relation to a tonal center. What does it feel like.
And the minor modality in Ab is strong enough for me that, when the bridge starts, I feel a shift. I know there's a C natural at the beginning of the verse melody, but the melodic line at the end of the verse, just prior to the bridge, is comprised entirely of notes from the B major scale.
― timellison, Friday, 8 May 2020 21:38 (three years ago) link
Or Cb major scale if we're talking about minor modality in Ab
― timellison, Friday, 8 May 2020 21:39 (three years ago) link
I actually feel like it can be more complicated to always have to try to reckon things to home keys unless there's a cadence.
― timellison, Friday, 8 May 2020 21:42 (three years ago) link
There might be e.g. jazz pieces with a lot of chromatic harmony where I could see that but, in this case, Fm and Bbm are completely diatonic harmonies in Ab that lead to an authentic cadence in Ab within two bars, via a chord (Gb) that is more common in Ab (major or minor) than in F minor. I'm not sure we're even disagreeing on their function: we are both hearing Fm-Bb at the start of the bridge as T-PD movement and, at that point, it is ambiguous whether we will end up in F minor or come back and resolve in Ab. If the phrase ended with a cadence in F minor, I would agree that they function as i-iv in that key. Since we instead end up with V-I in Ab, I analyse vi as a deceptive substitute for the tonic.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Friday, 8 May 2020 22:56 (three years ago) link
Sorry, I analyse Fm as vi and a deceptive substitute for the tonic chord.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Friday, 8 May 2020 22:57 (three years ago) link
Once again typing while you were responding and I have this:
"but I don't know how Gb could work as a pivot chord there even if you did"
Yeah, and that was my reason for raising the question in the first place. It's not a pivot. I think VC had it right when he explained it in terms of the key of Db. But I think the repetition of notes in the bridge melody over the Gb major chord and then over the Eb chord, used as a dominant, highlights a change of tonality and the return to Ab as tonal center.
― timellison, Friday, 8 May 2020 23:03 (three years ago) link
in this case, Fm and Bbm are completely diatonic harmonies in Ab
Right, but as I said, the melodic line right before it is not in Ab major; they're all notes relative to the Cb major scale.
― timellison, Friday, 8 May 2020 23:05 (three years ago) link
Iirc, the vocal melody there mostly moves between Ab and Bb (with that one descent to F) and there is no Db chord in the bridge. How would you hear it in Db?xp
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Friday, 8 May 2020 23:08 (three years ago) link
Eh, the song mixes modes between Ab major and Ab minor but that doesn't mean Fm and Bbm are now chromatic harmonies or that we need to analyse a key change there.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Friday, 8 May 2020 23:16 (three years ago) link
Obv there's room for interpretation, as fgti says. I'm just arguing for mine.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Friday, 8 May 2020 23:21 (three years ago) link
Given the G natural in the vocal melody over the first two chords in the bridge, you would have to say that something changes relative to the tonal center when you get to the Gb chord. You could say, well, we're just momentarily throwing in some flat sevens here in what was, moments earlier, diatonic melodicism in either Ab major (as you think of it) or F minor (as I think of it).
Db as tonal center would be a way of reckoning the first three chords together, but yeah, it's problematic relative to the G naturals in the melody over the F minor and Bb minor chords.
― timellison, Friday, 8 May 2020 23:24 (three years ago) link
doesn't mean Fm and Bbm are now chromatic harmonies or that we need to analyse a key change there
The need for me is in the fact that I don't think they function as a vi and as a ii. I don't think Ab Ionian is ever established. It's always with flat sevens and quite clearly Aeolian in the last part of the verse.
― timellison, Friday, 8 May 2020 23:36 (three years ago) link
Or, not Aeolian, harmonic minor
― timellison, Friday, 8 May 2020 23:37 (three years ago) link
I just hear it as a deceptive move back to major mode in a song that is already shifting between modes (maybe more than an earlier post of mine may have suggested?). You could analyse it instead as a brief move to F minor, the relative minor key of Ab major, en route to a V-I cadence in Ab, but I think it mostly amounts to saying the same thing.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Saturday, 9 May 2020 02:49 (three years ago) link
Cool track btw! Thanks for bringing it up. The mixture is really interesting.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Saturday, 9 May 2020 02:56 (three years ago) link
It is a cool track. I was thinking about how saying that I don't think they function as a vi chord and a ii chord leads to the question of - well, how are vi and ii chords supposed to function?
And I suppose there are many answers to that, but one way I think they can sort-of-function/sort-of-not-function is as chords used in a section that meanders. And that's how I would have to describe their use here IF we are saying it is still in the key of Ab. You start a new section on a vi chord, but then don't really do anything with it. You go to the ii, but then throw in a bVII (changing the mode), and then...straight to a dominant chord? That's some serious meandering.
But, the thing is, I do not think this song meanders in the slightest. I think it is quite crisp. I think each chord has a purpose. So, if I'm saying we're momentarily in the key of F minor, there are my purposeful chords - the tonic and the subdominant.
― timellison, Saturday, 9 May 2020 03:43 (three years ago) link
In functional harmony, ii is a pre-dominant; vi is a pre-dominant or a tonic substitute (most obv in a deceptive cadence but also sometimes at the beginning of a phrase, e.g. in the chorus of REO Speedwagon - "Take It on the Run"). I hear it the latter way here. I don't think of meandering as a harmonic function and it's not what I think is happening here.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Saturday, 9 May 2020 04:05 (three years ago) link
Yeah, I was referring to meandering more as a non-function. vi and ii are not meandering in and of themselves, obviously. If I follow the idea that the whole thing is in Ab, the meandering is established when they don't lead anywhere.
And if I am to say that the whole thing is in Ab, I don't think they do lead anywhere. I don't think that bVII chord progresses from vi and ii. It changes the notes of the scale. It's not just a little coloration change either, a little mode mixture. That's diatonic melodicism in what I think is F minor for those two measures before you get the Gb chord.
"Take It On the Run" is a great example of a song with a major section starting on the vi chord where there is clearly NOT a change of key.
― timellison, Saturday, 9 May 2020 05:18 (three years ago) link
Two explanations were given for bVII that make sense to me in terms of progression from ii: mediant movement or dominant prolongation. Clearly you just don't agree. I don't really see why i-iv in F minor is more purposeful: where does the subdominant lead from there? It is still moving to bVII-V-I in Ab. The Gb chord makes less sense in F min than in Ab; if anything, Bbm would be the pivot chord and you end up in the same place. vi-ii as T-PD moving to dominant via an ambiguous chord (which can be explained) seems more purposeful to me than T-PD in F minor that never progress to the dominant ("go anywhere") in that key but move to an ambiguous chord and then go to the dominant of Ab. (The idea that this is in Db with no tonic resolution in either melody or harmony seems tbh far-fetched). The need to see things 'going somewhere' is why theorists usually insist on reaching a cadence in a new key before being willing to label a modulation!
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Saturday, 9 May 2020 15:05 (three years ago) link
There is a tendency in theorists to try and codify things by scale and by mode-- I've gotten into fire-fights in the past with people trying to impose "it's Phyrgian!" on to anything with a flattened-2nd and it just doesn't work like that. Theory is (in my eyes) meant to be a way of understanding how flighty inspiration works, a kind of reference point for composers to riff off of. It's not a Rosetta stone, you can't really unpack everything, and why would you want to?
I was just thinking about this thread yesterday when "Last Friday Night" by Katy Perry came on while I was grocery shopping. That song is, to my ears, in a major key, but it never lands on the I. Theorists would argue that the chords solidly place it in the relative minor. I would argue "but listen to the melody. It's on the tonic of the relative major the whole fucking time. It's major, it's just trying to trick you!"
The truth about "Words Of Love" is that it is functionally in TWO different keys. The chords map better to Cb-major than Ab-major. The strongest assertion of a key centre happens on chord 3 of the verse cycle-- Cb-major. The chord progression, thus, is essentially VI(7) - V - I, before it dips to Bb - A (or Bb - Eb, depending) to swoop in and make this Cb-major cadence a grand deception by giving you a strong II - bII - I back to Ab-major (or II - V - I, depending).
We can argue modes, we can argue key centres, but it's the ambiguity that makes this song so colourful... I mean, even the intro starts in E-major! Bizarre!
― it’s been one week since you pissed on me (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 9 May 2020 15:51 (three years ago) link
Or rather, you could argue it starts in Cb-major, even! A little Fb - Cb (IV - I) plagal cadence in the deceptive key centre of the song.
― it’s been one week since you pissed on me (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 9 May 2020 16:58 (three years ago) link
Two explanations were given for bVII that make sense to me in terms of progression from ii: mediant movement or dominant prolongation. Clearly you just don't agree.
Of those two, I would say I particularly disagree with the idea of it as dominant prolongation. If there was no Eb chord following, I don't think the Gb substitutes as a dominant chord in this case. If you just went straight from the Gb to Ab, it doesn't even feel to me like I know that Ab is the tonic. I can see instances where bVII could be thought of as a sub for a dominant chord, but given F minor and Bb minor to start the bridge, I don't hear this as one of them.
Maybe "purposeful" is not the term I'm looking for with regard to a consideration of the F minor and Bb minor chords as tonic and subdominant. I think to consider them as tonic and subdominant is to consider them as chords that are more nailed down. The I and IV in "Feelin Alright?" by Traffic don't go anywhere either, but that's about as nailed down as you can get. I absolutely agree with you that the Gb makes no sense relative the key of F minor, which is why I've been arguing that there's no reason to think of that moment as ANOTHER momentary shift in tonal center. And I like the idea of considering it as the IV of Db. I can say it's a bVII in Ab, but as I think I suggested before, I think the held Bb in the vocal melody when the chord changes from Gb to Eb is to make you hear that common tone when a shift in tonal center occurs.
― timellison, Saturday, 9 May 2020 17:38 (three years ago) link
Thinking of Gb as IV of Db might just be another way of saying "mediant movement," although I'm not really used to that term and not really sure how it's usually employed. I'm used to considerations of chromatic mediants or double chromatic mediants, but those are relative to the tonic, not another chord.
My desire to relate the Gb chord to some scale or tonal center is not just a compulsion, it comes from an interest in wanting to know how a chord does or can function, at least in situations where it seems to be functioning in some way like this one (at least to me) does.
― timellison, Saturday, 9 May 2020 17:50 (three years ago) link
a bVII chord is pretty vanilla if you ask me, especially in the context of 60s folk pop. these songs were written by ear not by reading rimsky-korsakov
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Saturday, 9 May 2020 18:00 (three years ago) link
Sorry guys. Above meant to say re. Gb chord: "which is why I've been arguing that there IS reason to think of that moment as another momentary shift in tonal center"
― timellison, Saturday, 9 May 2020 18:03 (three years ago) link
Not sure what you mean, crüt, by saying it's vanilla.
― timellison, Saturday, 9 May 2020 18:05 (three years ago) link
The strongest assertion of a key centre happens on chord 3 of the verse cycle-- Cb-major.
Gonna say I disagree with this! This is a song where that chord that occurs in the first bar of every four bar group really feels like the root. There's even a V-I cadence the first time through the chords.
― timellison, Saturday, 9 May 2020 18:09 (three years ago) link
On the other hand, totally agree on "Last Friday Night." Didn't we talk about that one on this thread once long ago? I think every time it goes to the Db chord, there's a deceptive cadence.
― timellison, Saturday, 9 May 2020 18:14 (three years ago) link
There's no question in my mind that the song is in Ab-major... I'm trying to illustrate that a lot of the concepts of 'chromaticism?' and 'flat-what chord?' can be summed up by acknowledging the implication of a different key centre; in this case, Cb-major.
It's a pretty bog-standard concept that the addition of a b7 to a I chord (blues, i.e.) creates a kind of gravity toward the IV chord. It's not in the key of IV. It's just that the key of IV is implied in a 12-bar blues progression. The b7 on a I chord falls to the third of the VI chord as it would in a standard V7 - I perfect cadence. Ambiguity is created, a destabilization.
My argument with "Words Of Love" is that the same thing is happening, except with Cb-major (bIII) as the gravitational "other key". The b7 (Gb) that appears on the I chord (Ab-major) is not leading into IV (as it would in standard blues). It functions as the dominant of Cb-major (bIII). Ab(b7) - Gb - Cb = Ib7 - bVII - bIII in Ab-major. It's VIb7 - V - I in Cb-major.
DOES THIS ARGUMENT SOUND FAMILIAR? It should: we're mining the same territory as the perennial "Sweet Home Alabama" debate. It's the same three chords. Common sense would state that these three chords off the top of a verse are in Ab-major. Steeler's Wheel themselves would state that no, "Sweet Home Alabama" is in the key of Cb-major.
The difference is that The Mamas & The Papas follow the Ab(b7) - Gb - Cb with a very decisively Ab-major conclusion: Bb - A - Ab! (Or Bb - Eb - Ab!) It's clearly in Ab-major, but there is the implication of Cb-major.
― it’s been one week since you pissed on me (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 9 May 2020 18:22 (three years ago) link
And furthermore, if you acknowledge this kind of secondary key-centre, it makes things like the intro much more parseable. (How else are you going to explain the intro beginning on a cheery Fb-major -> Cb-major moment without some bizarre "oh it's a #IV" or some complicated explanation involving modulation? The answer is that Cb-major is an implied secondary key throughout this song.)
― it’s been one week since you pissed on me (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 9 May 2020 18:25 (three years ago) link
And SCRATCh what I tried to do just there about bringing it back to "Sweet Home Alabama"-- the secondary key in that song (if one could exist) is IV, not bIII. I was wrong! I just got excited for a moment
― it’s been one week since you pissed on me (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 9 May 2020 18:27 (three years ago) link
The b7 (Gb) that appears on the I chord (Ab-major) is not leading into IV (as it would in standard blues). It functions as the dominant of Cb-major (bIII).
TOTALLY
― timellison, Saturday, 9 May 2020 18:31 (three years ago) link
And yes to Cb tonal center explaining the intro also!
― timellison, Saturday, 9 May 2020 18:34 (three years ago) link
Yeah and that Gb over Ab-major is one of two shared pitches required for a mediant relationship explanation, too... The Gb and the Eb are both found in Cb-major.
Generally I think a lot of pop music chord progressions can be parsed more easily with concepts of secondary key-centres instead of complicated modulation explanations but that's just me. Not that complicated modulations don't exist. I could never argue that "Cybele's Reverie" has a verse in F-major and a bridge in C-major.
Speaking of mediant relationships, check out the key centres of "Wouldn't It Be Nice"! An intro in A-major. Verse is in F-major-- a major third away, with A as the shared pitch. Bridge is in D-major-- a minor third away-- and cleverly repurposes the harp intro (A-major) as chordal extensions in D-major. This song is so clever
― it’s been one week since you pissed on me (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 9 May 2020 19:07 (three years ago) link
*sorry, I could never argue against the idea that "Cybele's Reverie" has a verse and a bridge in two distinct keys.
― it’s been one week since you pissed on me (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 9 May 2020 19:08 (three years ago) link
Good point on "Cybele's Reverie." People probably might have a tendency to think that stays in F major during the bridge because of the Bb chord.
― timellison, Saturday, 9 May 2020 19:27 (three years ago) link
Yes but by the same token Laetitia is singing a B-natural at the end of her drifty long melodies in the otherwise very F-major verses. My take: there are two key centres in this song (F-major and C-major), they exist sequentially (not concurrently), and yet there are elements of interfacing between them.
I love the synth C note that extends out of the bridge and over the first g-minor chord of the verse reprise-- it turns that g-minor into the upper notes of an implied C9. Very cool move!
― it’s been one week since you pissed on me (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 9 May 2020 21:53 (three years ago) link
That is a B natural, isn't it? I don't know if it alludes to the key of C right there. It strikes me as a chromatic passing note from C to Bb.
― timellison, Saturday, 9 May 2020 23:11 (three years ago) link
Not sure if this is exactly the right thread for it, but saw a link to this interesting master's thesis on social media the other day:http://luifabriek.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Bram-Nigten-Recorded-Reflections-Sonic-Space-in-US-Popular-Recordings-During-the-Mono-Era-1877-1957-and-its-Occurrence-in-Three-Recordings-of-Studio-Pioneer-Bill-Putnam-MA-Thesis.pdf
― Louder Than Bach's Bottom (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 16 May 2020 21:02 (three years ago) link
Mixolydian songs that actually use the v chord (which is minor): "All Things Must Pass"
― timellison, Sunday, 21 June 2020 18:41 (three years ago) link
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
― timellison, Sunday, 21 June 2020 21:57 (three years ago) link
Somebody just posted a link to this elsewhere, seems interesting: http://cochranemusic.com/slonimsky-guitar-book
― Barry "Fatha" Hines (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 25 June 2020 15:47 (three years ago) link
We teach or study Bach chorale harmonizations so much on paper in an analytical/formulaic way that it can be easy to forget how incredible they can sound and work musically, how much Bach got out of these hymn melodies in such short amounts of time. I was just looking at and listening to BWV 122.6, a harmonization of verse 4 "Das neugeborne Kindelein": it consists of four four-bar phrases and takes about 40s in this performance: https://open.spotify.com/track/15iLRj3RAbWzWw9cWpjFbA?si=32OV2v08TKmb-qWGDZKrUA. In that time, it modulates three times so that each phrase is in a different key that the previous one. See the score here: https://www.bach-cantatas.com/PDFCH/012206.pdf. The first phrase ends with a half cadence in G minor. The second modulates to D minor and ends with an authentic cadence but on a Picardy so that the final chord is D major. The third phrase modulates to Bb major and ends with a perfect authentic cadence with a cadential 6/4. The last phrase modulates back to G minor and ends with a Picardy so that there is a perfect authentic cadence landing on G major.
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Friday, 17 July 2020 20:15 (three years ago) link
Wow!
― timellison, Saturday, 25 July 2020 18:36 (three years ago) link
My daughter is learning the harmonic minor scale right now:)
― Time Will Show Leo Weiser (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 28 July 2020 16:17 (three years ago) link
― Feel a million filaments (Sund4r), Tuesday, 28 July 2020 17:26 (three years ago) link
Just encountered an interesting (to me) listening ear/training thing that maybe I will comment on tomorrow if I remember.
― Time Will Show Leo Weiser (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 2 August 2020 03:18 (three years ago) link
Thread:
I've listened to Kyle Gann's Hyperchromatica a lot since it came out but never really broke down or read up properly on the actual tuning system he developed, although the info was all there /1: https://t.co/uduo3CLofj…#xen #newmusic #microtonality— Sundar Subramanian (@SundarSubrama13) August 16, 2020
4=a
― magnet of the elk park (Sund4r), Sunday, 16 August 2020 04:25 (three years ago) link
Thinking more about Bach chorales (again), I wonder what insights we'd glean if we actually translated and read the actual texts of the hymns Bach was harmonizing and considered the harmonizations in terms of how Bach was expressing these messages (and applying this understanding as well when we write our pastiches) - obv that was an important part of it for him and no doubt musicologists are doing it but I wonder if even core undergrad/conservatory theory would be strengthened with more integration of this element. It always seems a little odd that we study these as abstract formula. We do study Romantic lied this way.
― magnet of the elk park (Sund4r), Sunday, 16 August 2020 04:35 (three years ago) link
Sorry, meant that it's common to study Romantic lieder in terms of how the music works to express the text.
― magnet of the elk park (Sund4r), Sunday, 16 August 2020 04:44 (three years ago) link
You got an example?
― flamboyant goon tie included, Sunday, 16 August 2020 14:15 (three years ago) link
That's the thing - I've been teaching them for over a decade without ever doing this. It just strikes me as an odd thing so more something I want to look into. Will tackle one or two this week.
― magnet of the elk park (Sund4r), Sunday, 16 August 2020 14:46 (three years ago) link
I listened to a handful of chorales and read the translations... I didn't really see anything worth commenting on. The melody already existed, sad hymns were sad, happy hymns were happy, Picardie employed to indicate resolve. There's interfacing between text and harmonization but I didn't see anything that subverted or changed the message of the lyrics, it just seemed tonally appropriate at all times.
― flamboyant goon tie included, Sunday, 16 August 2020 15:17 (three years ago) link
Interesting idea, though! I've long been obsessed with David Wilcock's descant to Mendelssohn's "Hark! The Herald Angels Sing"-- the dissonant Fs on the final refrains, aaaaaaah!! I've wondered what the intention was, with regards to lyrical interfacing, colouring of the text, but I just figured it was mathematically designed to break my heart into a thousand pieces
― flamboyant goon tie included, Sunday, 16 August 2020 15:22 (three years ago) link
Oh sure, I don't doubt that the text-music relationship is probably simpler than in Schubert. Might still inform one's appreciation of why e.g. a Picardy or secondary dominant is used in specific places; also might make it a more conscious/intentional expressive task to write a chorale harmonization if you're thinking about expressing something and not just applying quasi-algorithmic rules.
Will look at the one you mention!
― magnet of the elk park (Sund4r), Sunday, 16 August 2020 16:06 (three years ago) link
Ya you probably know it. There are a couple of articles online that describe it as 'the best descant in the repertoire' and it admittedly is super turbo good, it's my favourite carol as a result
― flamboyant goon tie included, Sunday, 16 August 2020 17:16 (three years ago) link
This song is in C major but what's happening at 1:23? I think the lead guitarist in the L channel is playing in C minor (after the 1st bar) while the lead guitarist (overdub?) in the R is playing in B minor?!https://t.co/pwcfzvhnnO#musictheory #polytonality #indiemusic #guitar— Sundar Subramanian (@SundarSubrama13) August 19, 2020
― magnet of the elk park (Sund4r), Wednesday, 19 August 2020 03:31 (three years ago) link
this is an old article, but it popped up on twitter. we can all agree that a bunch of these are not actually key changes, right?
https://music.avclub.com/can-you-take-me-high-enough-24-songs-with-a-pivotal-k-1798278771
specifically, hey jude (just a change of chord progression that emphasizes the bVII), undone (maybe modulates in the solo, but comes right back to the key center for the chorus), and since u been gone (i think she just sings a different melody over the same chord progression over the last chorus).
― whiney on the moon (voodoo chili), Thursday, 27 August 2020 16:26 (three years ago) link
Hey Jude, no, that's a secondary dominantWeezer, yep that's a key change, even though it comes back"Since You Been Gone", yikes, that's not even a secondary dominant or anything, just a substituted chord
Good that they included "Love On Top" that's a real important one, it reminded me of Kevin Blechdom's "I Will Always Love You" when I first heard it haha
"Miss Misery" doesn't qualify I don't think, I think of key changes as when an actual change of key signature would be required, when the tonal centre has completely shifted, and the post-chorus moment they're pointing out just isn't that, the gravity is still around the main key of the song
The rest of them seem legit
― my god, it's full of bugles (flamboyant goon tie included), Thursday, 27 August 2020 17:31 (three years ago) link
There's a lot of interesting suggestions in the comments. It's true that they can't really talk about "key changes in pop music" without mentioning Beach Boys, those are really the cleverest and most effective, "Surf's Up" still confounds me, it's the rare song that I've heard hundreds of times but wouldn't be able to sound out at the piano from memory.
"Karma Police" is a real good suggestion in the comments, "Bohemian Rhapsody", too.
I'm on-the-fence as to how you'd describe a song where the verses and choruses are just in different keys, and the changing between them happens often-- "Layla", for example, although the shift between keys is garbage writing, imo.
One of the most confounding moments in pop music, for me, is "This Guy's In Love With You" (Bacharach/David). The "Say you're in love / in love with this guy" secondary dominant is so powerful that it threatens to usurp the actual key centre of the entire song. I fucking love that moment
― my god, it's full of bugles (flamboyant goon tie included), Thursday, 27 August 2020 17:40 (three years ago) link
Before listening, just scanning this over, a bunch of these are just the truck driver modulation, right?
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Thursday, 27 August 2020 18:22 (three years ago) link
it's the rare song that I've heard hundreds of times but wouldn't be able to sound out at the piano from memory.
i can mostly do this, but that's after practicing it for about 8 hours straight one day lol
"Layla", for example, although the shift between keys is garbage writing, imo.
i always thought that transition was very jarring, tho the chromaticism is kinda fun.
― whiney on the moon (voodoo chili), Thursday, 27 August 2020 20:39 (three years ago) link
a personal favorite key change of mine is costello's 'oliver's army,' which changes key from A to B right away in the bridge by shifting to the new key's relative minor of G#m, but doesn't become obvious until he returns to the verse.
― whiney on the moon (voodoo chili), Thursday, 27 August 2020 20:53 (three years ago) link
The write-up on Cheap Trick "Surrender" doesn't mention that there are two changes in the song... I've always loved how the intro is in Bb but then it goes immediately to B (and never goes back to Bb)
― my god, it's full of bugles (flamboyant goon tie included), Thursday, 27 August 2020 22:22 (three years ago) link
is there a turnaround in that one, or does it just jump up a half-step when the verse starts?
― whiney on the moon (voodoo chili), Thursday, 27 August 2020 22:50 (three years ago) link
Nope, it just jumps a half-step arbitrarily off the top, and then it does the same move again when they get to the verse where the parents are banging
― my god, it's full of bugles (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 28 August 2020 00:55 (three years ago) link
That's great, yeah.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Friday, 28 August 2020 01:27 (three years ago) link
What do we make of "Girl from Ipanema"? Let's look at the original Getz/Gilberto version in Db, not the fakebook version in F. Here's a faithful transcription of Gilberto's guitar part: http://www.hjgs.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/The-girl-from-ipanema.pdf . And this is the melody: https://drive.google.com/file/d/11gZNXD-CJ87Gkm4USTvWuDpPH_XdYD5t/view?usp=sharing. The A sections aren't too crazy: essentially, the progression of Db [6/9] - Eb9 - Ebm9 - D7 - Db [6/9] reduces to a I - ii - V7 - I progression with a tritone substitution for V7 (D7 instead of Ab7) and a chromatic II7 chord produced by an incomplete neighbouring note between the I and ii chords. EXCEPT Gilberto played the entire thing in second inversion, which seems crazy but works for some reason - what is the reason, though? Over the ii-V(tri sub)-I turnaround, I can see that the fifths in the bass are mostly doubling the melody; this still doesn't explain the bass in the first four bars. Also, it's a little trickier because the tri sub chord isn't a real D7 - there's no root in either the guitar part or the melody. It's actually F# dim/A, which could substitute for D7 but is now a substitute for a substitute?
The B section is the really fun part, though. The most convincing explanation (Ed Byrne's or my adjustment of his) I've seen analyses mm. 11-22 as moving through three unresolved tonicizations:Dmaj7-G7 is IV-bVII7 of ADm7-Bb7 is ii-bVII7 of Cand Ebm7-Cb7 is ii-bVII7 of the home key of Dband from there we just go to a standard chain of ii-V-Is
which is not bad as an explanation but... where do those key areas/tonicizations come from?? A (Bbb) works as a chromatic mediant move to bVI from Db but why do we get to C from there? Why does G7 go to Dm7? (Bb7 to Ebm7 is obv straightforward.)
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Friday, 28 August 2020 03:12 (three years ago) link
and from there we just go to a standard chain of ii-V-Is
Although, actually, Cb7-Fm7 is still a bit wtf.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Friday, 28 August 2020 03:19 (three years ago) link
I love reading this thread but I think I understand general relativity more than I understand music theory. Is there such a thing as a good primer?
I think I can pick a key change, fwiw: Quicksand by Bowie has a good one, right (into the second verse)?
― Vanishing Point (Chinaski), Friday, 28 August 2020 08:36 (three years ago) link
Bossa nova is a game of rhythmic and harmonic obscurantism. The word I like to use is "buoyancy"-- if you de-emphasize the downbeat, or remove the root of a chord, you're left with something not "unfinished" but something that floats.
I think of "Ipanema" as being, harmonically, like a game of zero-gravity Jenga. Remove the root, stack added pitches on top, you get something that floats. I've always appreciated the way that the first four bars of the melody have Joao singing the 7th and the 9th, dancing around the root Db of the chord, and the way it evokes, I suppose, a nice ass. He only hits the tonic over the ii7 chord, a little kiss before he descends to have the vocal melody cadence on the 5th of the chord.
The melody cadences on the 5th of the chord-- and the guitar chords are in 2nd inversion (the 5th of the chord in the bass). What is the reason? It's because, without the underpinning bass (firmly establishing that we're in Db), we'd be misled into thinking that our song is happening in Ab, a version of Ab with a lot of add6s. It's like a party trick-- the ear doesn't realize the song is actually in Db until the bass enters to set you straight.
sund4r: don't let Joao fool you with that D7/A. It's not as complicated as what you're describing, it's just an Ab-flat9, with the Ab root omitted, and the flat9 in the root! (Joao's D69/A that follows, though, although it is close in structure to an Ab-flat9, it's not the same-- this is just a chromatic substitution.)
The B-section is a very, very difficult thing to parse. I just struggled with it but I think I have a solution. Byrne's interpretation of the B-section is different from mine. I hear the first 12 bars this way:
Dmaj7 - G7 is a II - V7 of C. Look at the vocal melody, ends on a B, my ear wants to hear that B rise to a C for a nice pat resolution. And it almost does...
The "Dm7" has a G in the root-- all the pitches of a Cmaj triad are here in this chord! We have a Dmaj7 - G7 - C! (except the "C" is actually some hybrid of a Dm7 and a G7).
But yeah that Dm7? G7? chord is complicated, I think that it functions this way:
Dm7 - Bb7 is a bvii7 - V7 of Eb.
And we get that resolution to Eb-- except to an Ebm7. We duplicate this chord sequence up a half step:
Ebm7 - B7 is a bvii7 - V7 of E.
The subsequent "standard chain of ii - Vs" is made so lovely with those #11s, a very underrated chord addition.
― my god, it's full of bugles (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 28 August 2020 12:22 (three years ago) link
Kudos to Jobim, this is a gorgeously complicated thing, I've never unpacked it before and it's wonderful.
Also sund4r just to make things about myself, I have a song called "Perseverance.." that does the same thing as Joao does-- the song appears to be in some kind of complicated B, but then the bass enters half-way through and establishes that no, we're in E.
― my god, it's full of bugles (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 28 August 2020 12:26 (three years ago) link
Chinaski, do you read music? Play an instrument? Are you looking for more theory to help with composition/songwriting? Improvisation? Analytical listening? Particular idioms you are interested in? "Where to start" could have v different answers depending.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Friday, 28 August 2020 13:54 (three years ago) link
Sund4r's line of questioning is good. I'd like to think at this point I intellectually understand theory to some degree, at least from a jazz angle, but I still don't always hear it , except for the more obvious harmonic clichés, and there's no way I understand a fraction as much as the previous two very well-trained posters. In the end I found it more useful to be doing something with it rather than just reading about it to get something to stick in the earhole and brainworm.
― Two Little Hit Parades (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 28 August 2020 14:23 (three years ago) link
As far as "Garota de Ipanema" haven't read the previous posts properly yet, but Jobim is a really clever composer and it is often hard to tell how he is doing what he is doing when he is doing it, often the chords will move a little bit in one direction while the melody shifts a little in the other, the aural equivalent of some kind of visual paradoxical stairstep effect if you will. He definitely does all kinds of interesting stuff that doesn't seem like moving around the circle of fifths and doing the usual substitutions. There is also the question of what Tom is writing and what João is playing. Think part of what differentiated Bossa was not just the fancy harmonic movement but the relatively simplified rhythmic patterrns. It's almost motorik compared to other Brazilian stuff! He deliberately wasn't playing the boom-chick of a root-five samba bass line. He was more playing descending or ascending lines. Think somewhere I read he just preferred the fifth string and avoided the sixth which is maybe one reason he might hang out on the fifth in the bass.
― Two Little Hit Parades (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 28 August 2020 14:37 (three years ago) link
Or maybe he was hanging out on the sixth string and just playing the fifth of the chord there, but he definitely didn't shift basses between the fifth and the sixth string lightly.
― Two Little Hit Parades (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 28 August 2020 14:38 (three years ago) link
Guess I haven't tried to play that one in a month or so, since I don't remember what string the bass note is on!
― Two Little Hit Parades (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 28 August 2020 14:48 (three years ago) link
Okay, took another proper look. That B-section is K-krazy, can't I just file it under non-functional harmony and be done with it?
― Two Little Hit Parades (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 28 August 2020 15:09 (three years ago) link
the guitar chords are in 2nd inversion (the 5th of the chord in the bass). What is the reason? It's because, without the underpinning bass (firmly establishing that we're in Db), we'd be misled into thinking that our song is happening in Ab, a version of Ab with a lot of add6s. It's like a party trick-- the ear doesn't realize the song is actually in Db until the bass enters to set you straight.
Yeah, that's a good point. I was focusing so much on the guitar part, and the unaccompanied first verse, that I was overlooking the bass part, which, you're right, does put the roots of the chords in their place and also puts an Ab under that dominant-functioning chord, making it an Ab flat9, as you say.
Dmaj7 - G7 is a II - V7 of C. Look at the vocal melody, ends on a B, my ear wants to hear that B rise to a C for a nice pat resolution. And it almost does...The "Dm7" has a G in the root-- all the pitches of a Cmaj triad are here in this chord! We have a Dmaj7 - G7 - C! (except the "C" is actually some hybrid of a Dm7 and a G7).But yeah that Dm7? G7? chord is complicated, I think that it functions this way:Dm7 - Bb7 is a bvii7 - V7 of Eb.And we get that resolution to Eb-- except to an Ebm7. We duplicate this chord sequence up a half step:Ebm7 - B7 is a bvii7 - V7 of E.
B-b-but II maj7 and vii m7 (not bvii in these cases) are the kinds of symbols under which my old theory prof would have written "don't write meaningless Roman numerals" - they don't refer to any harmonic function I'm familiar with. bVII7 is a common enough substitute for V7 in a jazz context. The only way I would understand those others is as chromatic products of voice-leading (like the Eb9 chord in the A section), which could work if the melody strongly suggested the key areas you give but I have trouble hearing that - if mm. 11-14 are in (or tonicizing) C, we get neither the tonic nor the dominant in the melody and the first two bars are built around C#/Db, which is obv not part of that tonality, with unresolved leading notes in m. 12 - so I can't hear C as the tonal centre there. I am able to hear A as a centre there with the melodic phrase beginning on a prolonged C# (the mediant) and resolving to the tonic on the third bar of the phrase. Likewise with the next two.
Also, where are you hearing the G during the Dm7?
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Friday, 28 August 2020 15:31 (three years ago) link
does put the roots of the chords in their place and also puts an Ab under that dominant-functioning chord, making it an Ab flat9, as you say.
Although, yeah, it does have the effect of making the unaccompanied verse tonally ambiguous.
James Redd et al - "non-functional harmony" is a bit of a cop-out. There still has to be some logic to how the material is organized, post-tonal or otherwise.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Friday, 28 August 2020 15:33 (three years ago) link
(But yeah, do see the temptation, lol)
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Friday, 28 August 2020 15:54 (three years ago) link
Okay, read through this a bit finally and mostly liked fgti's analysis, haven't parsed Sund4r's response yet.Also wanted to post a bit of interesting trivia here I just learned from a book length academic study of Jobim that My Smart Neighbor™ told me about: he was asked to write the score for The Pink Panther and Two For the Road and later The Exorcist, all of which he turned down, the first two being written of course by Henry Mancini.
― Two Little Hit Parades (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 29 August 2020 19:42 (three years ago) link
Here is a long video I haven't watched yet about this song from another super smart guy I have had the pleasure to talk to, Adam Neely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFWCbGzxofU
― Two Little Hit Parades (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 29 August 2020 19:44 (three years ago) link
Please feel free to call me on this cheesy Borrowed Prestige maneuver.
― Two Little Hit Parades (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 29 August 2020 19:46 (three years ago) link
Gets really interesting at around minute 25.
― Two Little Hit Parades (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 29 August 2020 20:03 (three years ago) link
Somebody told me that in the Chediak Jobim Songbook, which the composer presumably was involved in, the key is F and that the Db on Getz/Gilberto was probably because of Astrud's range.
― Two Little Hit Parades (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 29 August 2020 20:44 (three years ago) link
Thank you for your response. My query is more along the lines of, say, the relationship of linguistics to everyday language: I am immersed in music (and play the guitar a bit) yet the mechanics are completely opaque - to the point where reading your conversations on here leaves me feeling a bit like Wittgenstein's lion. I need a year 1/year 2 text, I think!
Anyway, I'm conscious of derailing.
― Vanishing Point (Chinaski), Sunday, 30 August 2020 10:06 (three years ago) link
I kinda can't talk about "Ipanema" any more just because it is a truly difficult song to parse and it seems more like a conversation at a piano than a series of posts!
― my god, it's full of bugles (flamboyant goon tie included), Sunday, 30 August 2020 13:00 (three years ago) link
Heh, think I know what you mean. In any case, I usually like this guy's approach to theory and here is something that may or may not be relevant: https://antonjazz.com/2012/01/backdoor-ii-v-progression/
― Two Little Hit Parades (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 August 2020 13:29 (three years ago) link
This was the thing he did I first came across that I found useful: https://antonjazz.com/2012/11/dominant-scales/
― Two Little Hit Parades (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 August 2020 13:31 (three years ago) link
Think I probably posted it here already
― Two Little Hit Parades (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 August 2020 13:36 (three years ago) link
I guess my general observation will be that, if there is a 7th chord, this is kind of the main clue. It is probably the V7, could be a tritone sub, could be bVII7. The ii chord might be altered somehow and the I chord might never appear or be disguised in some fashion.
― Two Little Hit Parades (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 30 August 2020 13:44 (three years ago) link
Probably linked to this guy before as well: http://brunojazz.com/vt-bVII7chord.htm
Totally fair, fgti.
Chinaski, most academic texts are built around using standard musical notation to take apart 18th and 19th European art music. If you play a little guitar, don't read music, and are more interested in pop/rock, this might be a good book to start with: https://www.halleonard.com/product/148390/hal-leonard-guitar-music-theory
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Sunday, 30 August 2020 13:53 (three years ago) link
It gets you to the core concepts a lot faster and gives a lot of familiar examples and tabs to actually play through and hear what you're learning. I'd supplement it with some ear training - start with identifying intervals.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Sunday, 30 August 2020 13:56 (three years ago) link
If you actually want the more traditional method and are starting from the beginning, Sarnecki's Elementary Music Rudiments books are usually what I use; not sure of their availability in the UK - ABRSM may have some kind of equivalent. You could get the Basic/Intermediate/Advanced books or the Complete book that combines them all.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Sunday, 30 August 2020 13:59 (three years ago) link
I have a song called "Perseverance.." that does the same thing as Joao does-- the song appears to be in some kind of complicated B, but then the bass enters half-way through and establishes that no, we're in E.
Just listened to this. Very cool!
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Friday, 4 September 2020 17:33 (three years ago) link
Took the "Ipanema" question to Twitter.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Monday, 7 September 2020 00:33 (three years ago) link
...and? (I have been meaning to ask a friend to weigh, but haven't yet)Which friend reposted this on FB, so I might as well be the first to post this here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr3quGh7pJAOne of you appears here briefly in some sense. At around minute eighteen something appears that I was talking about with another one of you the other day.
― Quit It And Hit It Sideways (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 September 2020 21:06 (three years ago) link
I came across this recently too which ties in: https://ethaniverson.com/guest-posts/the-emotional-rhythm-of-sophia-rosoff-by-sarah-deming/
― Quit It And Hit It Sideways (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 7 September 2020 21:14 (three years ago) link
I didn't realize until now that the guy who gave that keynote speech that sparked all the controversy was someone I had dinner with at the 2018 SMT/AMS conference.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 03:18 (three years ago) link
Anyway, I'll watch this video but I'll say upfront that there's something that doesn't completely sit right with me about the current wave of wokeness on music theory social media.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 03:20 (three years ago) link
So I was prepared to hate that but it actually got really good when he got to Schenker. Getting the same guy to voice-act fgti as well as Timothy Jackson seems a bit harsh, though! Might try to put together a more thorough response later on. Despite the clickbaity title and beginning, it does go p deep, ultimately.
Incidentally, has anyone ever heard any music or musical scholarship by Ben Shapiro's father David or even heard OF his work in any context other than Ben referencing him in his stupid hip-hop video? I don't know of David being on record for anything other than writing for Breitbart under a pseudonym.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 14:49 (three years ago) link
I didn't watch the video and I don't think I can? but I did message the guy yesterday (after getting two "hey you should see this" text messages at my birthday picnic) just to make sure he knew that those articles were Heavily, Heavily Steeped In Sarcasm
― you’re crying, I’m farting (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 16:11 (three years ago) link
I also expected that to be simplistic but it wasn't -- very engaging and thorough and convincing and actually in tune with a lot of thoughts and feelings I had freshman year of music school but didn't really have a framework to express (in my case it was even more absurd because I was a jazz major and first-year music theory was about MONK CHANT).
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 16:27 (three years ago) link
Which actually suggests there are a couple of different interrelated points there -- one is the whole western/euro/classical-centric aspect of the way theory is taught, but another is that even within the "western" tradition, the way theory is taught is often overly narrow (in part, but not exclusively, because "western" music itself has already pulled from so many other musics at this point).
That said, when he got to the comparative examples, I felt like that would be a terrible pedagogy for beginner students, too confusing.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 17:24 (three years ago) link
Like I think it actually is *ok* and even beneficial to start with a particular framework rather than a universal comparative approach, as long as you don't treat that framework as the gold standard.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 17:25 (three years ago) link
Although OTOH children can learn two languages at once and can even benefit from it, so I wonder if the same can be said for two musical "languages."
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 17:26 (three years ago) link
is there any music pedagogy which simply reverses the frameworks, and consciously and rigorously reads "western/euro/classical-centric" from the other perspective?
― mark s, Tuesday, 8 September 2020 17:28 (three years ago) link
I mean, I would assume that an Indian music school would or might have that approach?
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 17:33 (three years ago) link
MONK CHANTFor quite a while I thought you meant this, and thought "wow, that's pretty cool"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRe7UuvgSEI
― Quit It And Hit It Sideways (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 17:57 (three years ago) link
The original being, of course, yet another German artisthttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3H-fmmNmrRs
― Quit It And Hit It Sideways (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 18:00 (three years ago) link
I couldn't find a theory curriculum but my understanding is that Swarnabhoomi Music Academy in Chennai does teach Carnatic music alongside Western music (mostly jazz aiui?) and music tech/audio engineering - and this was an academy set up to teach Western music. India is one place where if someone says they like or play classical music without qualifying adjectives, they definitely mean Hindustani or Carnatic.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 18:02 (three years ago) link
Will have more to say later on.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 18:03 (three years ago) link
Ah, good news:
changed the title to "Music Theory and White Supremacy"— licc bass not boots (@its_adamneely) September 8, 2020
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 18:06 (three years ago) link
― Quit It And Hit It Sideways (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 18:19 (three years ago) link
― Quit It And Hit It Sideways (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 18:27 (three years ago) link
I guess another thing I wonder, having completed exactly 1.5 years of conservatory roughly 20 years ago, is how universally true the video is about US music academies -- surely there are places that teach other approaches to music theory, no?
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 18:31 (three years ago) link
I'm guessing you know American musicians whom they hired to teach the jazz courses? Obv they would be more likely to hire Indian musicians for Indian music classes.
Prasanna does straight up Carnatic performances and recordings alongside his jazz/fusion work.xp
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 18:57 (three years ago) link
Yes, American. North American or Latin American. And yeah that’s what my understanding of Prasanna’s approach was, thanks for clarifying.
― Quit It And Hit It Sideways (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 19:02 (three years ago) link
In Turkey they differentiate between “Turkish” and “Western” classical music. “Türk klasik müziği” is actually a relatively new term for what is traditionally known as simply “sanat müziği” (‘art music’).No doubt a similar situation applies to the Arabic and Persian musical spheres.
― No mean feat. DaBaby (breastcrawl), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 19:34 (three years ago) link
To my point:https://margswarnabhoomi.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/424162_4745938619779_855695140_n.jpg
― Quit It And Hit It Sideways (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 19:43 (three years ago) link
Yeah, the similar distinction is also made in India but "classical" on its own means "Indian classical" and "Western" on its own means "anglo pop, v possibly Bryan Adams" (maybe jazz) ime. Idk if there's much of an infrastructure for the study and performance of Western classical music at all. The first orchestra was set up in 2006, apparently, and was mostly staffed by foreign musicians: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-south-asia-15035703xp
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 19:47 (three years ago) link
A different group but still https://image.isu.pub/120217115022-6bb9131aef804c5282f8e6d20662d0c0/jpg/page_8.jpg
― Quit It And Hit It Sideways (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 19:54 (three years ago) link
I've never taught Western music theory like some kind of universal law btw.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 19:59 (three years ago) link
So I couldn’t get totally to the bottom of what goes on at Swarnabhoomi, but I did hear first hand that people can study whatever type of music the teachers teach, which is presumably a mix of Carnatic or other Indian styles along with Berklee-style Jazz education. Actually a lot of people I might know ended up going to the Aaron Copland School of Music after Berklee. ASCM does indeed have a Schenkerian analysis side, but I don’t that applies to the formerly Jimmy Heath-led jazz program.
― Quit It And Hit It Sideways (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 8 September 2020 21:31 (three years ago) link
― My Baby Loves the Western Music Theory (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 9 September 2020 00:09 (three years ago) link
as a topical case in point: i'd v much like to see/read/hear an analysis of steve reich's DRUMMING (1971) from the expert perspective of an ewe master-drummer -- what it gets "right", what it does "wrong", what an ewe master-drummer can learn from a performance of reich that s/he didn't know in advance etc
(this may well exist!)
― mark s, Wednesday, 9 September 2020 13:45 (three years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXvoWexGn0o***SPOILER ALERT!***
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 9 September 2020 15:22 (three years ago) link
So I'm putting together my inchoate thoughts but, while the Schenker stuff is great, I was not completely sold on the first half. (First, even the most conservative classical theory curriculum would at least get to the harmonic language of 19th century European art music composers by the second year and probably 20th century Western art music composers in upper year courses, if not the last semester of second year. So "music theory = harmonic language of 18th century European musicians" is narrower than the most uptight conservatory or even Schenker himself - might seem like nitpicking but I do think it's relevant!)
I agree that it felt like there were at least two issues being raised, which might be in contradiction with each other. One was that the focus on the language of European art music of the 18th (and 19th) centuries is alienating, esp in American institutions, because it excludes American music itself and contemporary music that most young musicians are most likely to know, listen to, and might want to play. The other is that this focus is ethnocentric and white supremacist and excludes musical traditions that are even more foreign to most American students such as Indian classical music and West African drum/dance. Wanting a more contemporary, populist, or pragmatic theory curriculum is not the same thing as wanting a broader global perspective; it wasn't totally clear to me which Neely wants. (Maybe it's not to him either, which is fine.)
Also, while white supremacy is baked into it, it’s not the entire story, esp insofar as there is plenty of music by white people that is ALSO not covered in a standard classical theory curriculum.
That said, when he got to the comparative examples, I felt like that would be a terrible pedagogy for beginner students, too confusing.Like I think it actually is *ok* and even beneficial to start with a particular framework rather than a universal comparative approach, as long as you don't treat that framework as the gold standard.
I certainly agree. I also don’t know what a ‘universal comparative approach’ would actually be training students to do - it doesn’t seem like it would bring them to a professional level of proficiency in any one of those traditions, which people seem to sometimes forget is generally the purpose of music education.
Some music programs really do exist to train orchestral musicians, for whom the traditional curriculum is completely appropriate. The principles of functional harmony are also broadly applicable to other Western styles - I give this to theory students who work in any idiom. Voice-leading rules are generally the least transferable ime - this is also largely what makes classical theory as difficult as it is.
I wouldn’t necessarily have a problem with a curriculum that de-emphasized those and spent more time on modal harmony, for instance, and this would be very appropriate in some contexts. I do think it could be tricky to put together a theory curriculum that was directly reflective of the current pop charts, given that these are by definition constantly changing.
My undergrad alma mater (not in the US tbf but close) requires B.Mus students to do both classical and jazz theory and does use African drumming to teach rhythmic skills. Even the classic theory prof used examples from the Beatles, Yes, and Queen along with classical examples. (I did a BA in Music back then so bypassed some of it at the time.) At my recent job in the US, I taught music tech/production courses, one of which was required for all music students and focused pretty much totally on popular styles. I have an acquaintances who teaches at a pop/commercial music-oriented institution in a non-coastal red state and absolutely teaches more pop-oriented theory.
Even when working in the most conservative contexts, I’ve always made clear that classical theory is the study of the language of 18th and 19th century European art music and far from universal. It is helpful to be reminded that that’s not how Schenker thought of it, though.
I do think most music students are capable of realizing that learning voice-leading rules in theory class doesn’t suddenly mean that the parallel fifths they’ve heard in every rock song are suddenly ‘wrong’.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Wednesday, 9 September 2020 17:11 (three years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kOtMGVMLET8
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 9 September 2020 18:02 (three years ago) link
Sorry, meant to say booming post ,Sund4r.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 9 September 2020 18:03 (three years ago) link
Booming post indeed.
― pomenitul, Wednesday, 9 September 2020 18:05 (three years ago) link
Also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KJj3-PI1p0
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 9 September 2020 18:08 (three years ago) link
I think what frustrates me about this whole discussion-- on an abstract level, not any of the participants-- is that I see Western Music Notation and Western Music Theory (which includes jazz theory) as being a language. That is, it's a way of codifying sound and explaining what it is, how it works-- and the Western way is only ONE (general) way of doing so-- one way, with many specific branches of codification (tabs, Schenker, chord charts, score, etc.)
Music theory is a language; it is NOT a method of qualitative analysis. This is where I think my thoughts start to diverge. Yes, we're taught "what is right" when we're learning how to write Bach chorale, fugue, counterpoint, learning how to orchestrate, etc., but this is a way of learning the history of Western musical development, not learning about "what is good" and "what is bad".
I'm pretty virtuosic when it comes to Western Music Notation, and could easily recreate on paper almost any three-minute piece of music after a couple of listens-- as a creator, it's useful to know the language, and be trained in it. It's a useful skill in being able to propose explanations for why a good piece of music works, and a bad piece of music doesn't. But the idea that the language itself is a basis for qualitative analysis is pretty wack? Graded theory exercises are just a method of training, not a way of actually appreciating music.
So yeah, when I see a video that says "parallel fifths are OK!" I'm like dude you are missing the point of learning about parallel fifths, being trained to avoid them when you're writing your chorale exercises, etc. Nobody is trying to teach you that they're "bad". They're just inappropriate in a certain pedagogical context
― you’re crying, I’m farting (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 9 September 2020 20:01 (three years ago) link
I have always found it kind of stimulating, I gotta say, when there's some band that comes up and it's very, very apparent that the principal songwriters are "trained in Western music theory" without the content being a deliberate showcase for this knowledge. Blonde Redhead is one example-- ...Lemons could only have been written by somebody who'd taken (at least) 1st year harmony. Oddly enough, Peter Bjorn & John's Writer's Block is another-- although I'm not actually certain if there was training on the part of the songwriter, I'd bet money on it-- there are a couple of songs where the interaction between the bass/vocals/guitar could be submitted in a Fux-derived counterpoint class and get full marks. (I'm not exaggerating! "Up Against The Wall" sounds like an exercise in 5th species)
― you’re crying, I’m farting (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 9 September 2020 20:08 (three years ago) link
Yeah, no, that's part of what I was saying, fgti. I teach theory as like learning the vocabulary and syntax of one idiom but it's helpful to remember than Schenker didn't see it that way (although Fux and Bach might have).
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Wednesday, 9 September 2020 20:15 (three years ago) link
Yes, I agree.
And I go further and say that None Of These Critics Are Actually Off-Base. Pedagogical institutions, in my experience, have been excessively dismissive of any work that does not ascribe to these nefarious metrics of "quality". I fought with very "cool" teachers who just entirely wrote off pop/rock genres as being "lowbrow", even as they were appreciators of those genres. It was always so shocking-- one of my comp teachers would get this smug look in her eye anytime John Cage's name was mentioned, ugh.
― you’re crying, I’m farting (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 9 September 2020 20:29 (three years ago) link
Part of the problem is that you can't expect an art (in the broadest possible sense of the term) teacher to fully embrace every aesthetic variant within their field, no matter how valid. Subjectivity doesn't simply disappear once an academic institution grants you its imprimatur and blind spots are bound to subsist.
― pomenitul, Wednesday, 9 September 2020 20:33 (three years ago) link
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 9 September 2020 21:02 (three years ago) link
Now that I think about it, when I first met/knew Adam, he was not quite fresh out of Berklee, was looking at Chord Scale Theory in the rearview mirror and not liking what he saw and considering other ways to think about these things. Although I saw him in another video recommending Mark Levine's Jazz Piano Book so perhaps he has come full circle of fifths on that topic. Maybe he felt now that he put paid to the excesses of CST he was going to go after bigger game, to come locked and loaded for the dancing Viennese or at last German-speaking bears.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 9 September 2020 21:08 (three years ago) link
Ha that's what I was wondering, actually. I didn't think his own theory education at Berklee would have been limited to the harmonic language of 18th century Europeans.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Wednesday, 9 September 2020 21:20 (three years ago) link
He also got an MM in Jazz Composition from Manhattan School of Music after that, but yeah same thing.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Wednesday, 9 September 2020 21:55 (three years ago) link
Ooof. I watched the video.
Was my tone in those Slate articles really that illegible? I remember being so deliberate in my usage of "the excellence and supremacy of Western music theory", like, I thought that the classism of the entire exercise was telegraphed pretty clearly.
― you’re crying, I’m farting (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 11 September 2020 16:55 (three years ago) link
LIKE WHO WOULD WRITE THAT SENTENCE WITH ANY SERIOUSNESS AT ALL, UGH
― you’re crying, I’m farting (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 11 September 2020 16:59 (three years ago) link
I'm telling you just contact Adam about it. I'm sure there is something he would like to pick your brain about and then in return you can be in (another) one of his videos.
― ABBA O RLY? (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 11 September 2020 17:05 (three years ago) link
I don't think they were obviously sarcastic fwiw, that sentence possibly excepted. Looking over the "Teenage Dream" essay now, idk why you would have meant it sarcastically? It seems like a very good analysis to me!
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Friday, 11 September 2020 17:10 (three years ago) link
If anything, I thought Neely was unfair bc you were clearly NOT judging this song by the standards of 18th c Euro harmony.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Friday, 11 September 2020 17:22 (three years ago) link
Ha I did write him-- the video went up on my birthday, and I was alerted to it while drinking and dining, and sent him a message saying "ha um I was being somewhat clearly sarcastic? maybe not sarcastic enough"
Ted Gioia wrote an article for The Daily Beast https://www.thedailybeast.com/music-criticism-has-degenerated-into-lifestyle-reporting that was discussed on a Facebook thread. On that thread, I argued that "applying the language of Western music theory to pop music was fun but also inherently useless, that the 'lifestyle reporting' that Gioia decries is actually a more important commentary on pop singles". A friend challenged me to unpack a single with that language, and I did "Teenage Dream" with a tone that I hoped would telegraph heavy irony, but also honour both the beauty of the song and try and keep things entertaining and informative.
By the time the third article was being written, I was concerned that people were taking these articles at face value, and I hoped that "the excellence and supremacy" line would make it quite, quite clear that these articles were meant to be somewhat ridiculous
― you’re crying, I’m farting (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 11 September 2020 17:25 (three years ago) link
I agree with Neely's (and Ewell's) theses so deeply that it seems unnecessary to even express my differences of opinion with what Neely was saying, but here goes:
- I don't think continuo is taught outside of the context of Baroque performance instruction, but I could be wrong,
- in my own education, the basics of North Indian classical music were compulsory 101 for all streams of music undergrad-- gamelan, Tibetan and African traditions were taught in an elective capacity,
- "Western music theory", which Neely desires to reframe as "the harmonic language of 18th century classical musicians" is off-base-- although he is correct in its roots. I argue that "Western music theory" is a living and developing language, and the work of 20th c. jazz theorists is included in this language.
I absolutely do agree that certain streams of Euro-centric musical development are over-taught. I would personally argue that Fux (and Jeppesen etc.) is highly relevant to contemporary musicians, and worthy of continued inclusion. I would argue, however, that we can effectively strike Scriabin's quartal exercises from the canon, and reduce the inclusion of twelve-tone-row theory to a mere passing mention, as it has little-to-no relevance outside of being (in my view) one of the most glaringly Euro-centric moments in music history. Having students write tone rows and invert and reverse them is probably the least-useful pedagogical exercise I can imagine.
― you’re crying, I’m farting (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 11 September 2020 17:34 (three years ago) link
But ... the analyses work and I do think they are valuable commentary on pop songs. That made me appreciate "Teenage Dream" more than lifestyle pieces do.xp
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Friday, 11 September 2020 17:36 (three years ago) link
I put my row down, flip it and reverse itSweiv yttihs laer emos desuopse zeloubSweiv yttihs laer emos desuopse zeloub
― you’re crying, I’m farting (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 11 September 2020 17:37 (three years ago) link
xp yeah I suppose so
I thought the Daft Punk and Gaga analyses were overwrought-- even if the general Gaga thesis was interesting, i.e. that she effectively "branded" a sound by using similar musical materials for the bulk of her early singles.
"Why Fux is still relevant" would be an interesting investigation, imo! Considering that session players are hired to "write top lines" and "write bass lines" it might be interesting to point out that Fux devised some still-relevant systems, centuries ago, to help write "good top lines" and "good bass lines"
― you’re crying, I’m farting (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 11 September 2020 17:41 (three years ago) link
. I would argue, however, that we can effectively strike Scriabin's quartal exercises from the canon, and reduce the inclusion of twelve-tone-row theory to a mere passing mention
Fwiw, I don't even know what the former are. I don't think most music programs still spend that much time on the latter in compulsory core theory classes? I don't know if it was ever part of the Royal Conservatory's theory curriculum but it hasn't been for the 20-odd years that I've been paying attention.
(I have also never taught figured bass.)
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Friday, 11 September 2020 18:15 (three years ago) link
I personally DO use 12-tone theory and find it valuable tbc but def don't think it's necessary for all students. Again, there are schools where a lot of the students will work with that repertoire, though.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Friday, 11 September 2020 18:24 (three years ago) link
In performance even— I played Webern Vier Stucke and Berg concerto— I didn’t feel it knowledge of rows was necessary? I don’t think it’s useful, personally, in basic appreciation of anything really except some of the end-of-the-line Boulez works (where he serializes every element, Deux Structures for example)
― you’re crying, I’m farting (flamboyant goon tie included), Friday, 11 September 2020 18:30 (three years ago) link
Hm, yeah, it's interesting - with most 12 tone music, row structures are just a system for generating pitch material; they don't play the role in form that scale degrees and harmonic function do in tonal music. So when bringing out the phrasing in Smith Brindle, I'm not primarily thinking about rows, it's true. I do when composing certain pieces. I was actually startled once when I found that a performer had done a full row analysis of a piece I had written for him! I think it did help him.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Friday, 11 September 2020 18:40 (three years ago) link
this is an all-time classic post
― shout-out to his family (DJP), Friday, 11 September 2020 19:07 (three years ago) link
I signed up for the free month of Scribd so I could read the JSS issue that was responding to Ewell: https://fr.scribd.com/document/471711685/Journal-of-Schenkerian-Studies-responses
The Jackson piece starts out making some potentially interesting points about how Schenker's views changed over time and then... it really gets as bad as described in the video. "Ewell's scapegoating of Schenker, Schenkerians, and Schenkerian analysis occurs in the much larger context of Black-on-Jew attacks in the United States" (topic sentence for a whole paragraph) is mindbogglingly appalling.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Saturday, 12 September 2020 02:38 (three years ago) link
Whoa
I had no idea that this went this far. I really want to investigate this. Or maybe I don't? Feels like a lot of emotional investment into something that I wouldn't feel comfortable forming (let alone expressing) an opinion about.
I had this feeling before! I remember Audra McDonald was rewriting "Porgy And Bess", calling it "The Gershwins' Porgy And Bess" and changing the plot elements to make it less offensive to Black people. I remember Steven Sondheim writing an open letter to McDonald decrying what she was doing. Then I attended a Daphne Brooks lecture at PopCon about this whole dispute.
Brooks obviously thinks Sondheim is an asshole and I'm inclined, on this topic, to agree. But then I remember Brooks arguing that Gershwin himself could claim no authorship over "Porgy And Bess"-- this opera's authorship belongs entirely to the African-American community. I remember feeling Extremely Challenged by this viewpoint-- as somebody who has studied a lot of Gershwin's scores, I'm privy to his genius, the guy was a monster-- and as somebody who writes scored music, I'm aware of the insane amount of work it would take to create something as monumental as "Porgy And Bess"-- and furthermore, you're literally talking about the greatest American opera ever written? But OK, I'm still listening, Daphne Brooks! (I think my ego was somewhat slighted, thinking of how I've spent most-of-my-life-at-this-point with digital pen-to-score, feeling like Brooks might not have fully grasped how much WORK composing an opera actually involves)
Brooks went on to describe the genesis of Gershwin's compositional process, collecting hymns from Black churches in the Carolinas. I remember the moment that Brooks said, as an aside, paraphrased, "Gershwin writing Porgy And Bess-- this is just another example of Jewish-Americans using anti-Black racism to ingratiate themselves to the white urbanites", and I felt like the entire chalkboard in my brain got erased. "I am not allowed to have an opinion about this topic," my brain screamed, and I don't. I kind of feel the same way about Ewell vs. Schenker. Very interested, but trepidatious to get so emotionally and intellectually involved in something I probably won't allow myself to form an opinion about.
― you’re crying, I’m farting (flamboyant goon tie included), Saturday, 12 September 2020 12:35 (three years ago) link
I watched the Q&A about parallel P5s and, although the answer is fine, I guess the things I would want to elaborate on are that: i) yes, avoiding these is part of the sound of 18th century chorales and not part of the sound of 60s garage rock but it's not just a random choice. There's a reason why it's part of the sound of Baroque and Classical four-part writing, which is that a balance of melody and harmony is sought such that the independence of each voice is preserved while they also form vertical harmonies; parallel perfect consonances make the voices sound fused together, which works against this. If you want a similar balance in a different style, this could still be a good way to achieve it, which you can see in e.g. some softer Beatles songs. Conversely, fusing multiple voices together in parallel perfect consonances makes them sound more forceful and unified, which is why it works in heavier styles of rock, for instance. ii) Whoever told you that parallel fourths are poor even in 18th century counterpoint was wrong wrong wrong.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Sunday, 13 September 2020 02:43 (three years ago) link
I am not nearly as well versed in music history or more than cursory music theory compared to you guys but as an African-American classical baritone who has sung selections from Porgy and Bess in small concerts, I would like to say that the idea that Gershwin has no authorship over Porgy and Bess is 200% horseshit regardless of your ethnic background.
― shout-out to his family (DJP), Monday, 14 September 2020 13:43 (three years ago) link
I'm interested in more examples of pop songs with clear tonics that avoid or significantly delay the I chord.
Got this from a Drew Nobile paper but - "Jane Says": the melody is 100% centred around D and largely arpeggiates the D triad. The harmony cycles between G and A (IV and V) for the entire song. (In the video version, there's a D chord at the very beginning before they get to the song.)
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Thursday, 24 September 2020 18:09 (three years ago) link
A's don't even land more frequently over the A chord, nor do Ds land more frequently over the G chord, I don't think.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Thursday, 24 September 2020 18:21 (three years ago) link
Weirdly, the bridge is centred melodically around A in the studio version but stays in D in the video version.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Thursday, 24 September 2020 18:40 (three years ago) link
I feel like the arpeggiating of D is basically happenstance. That it doesn't give any sense of D as something you anticipate or as an underlying key. The A and the F# seem to be more about the ninth and the major seventh harmonies on G. And then the lines that end on E (which is not part of the D major triad) toward the end of the verse as an emphasis on an added sixth harmony.
― timellison, Sunday, 27 September 2020 17:50 (three years ago) link
That blue note in the bridge, the C natural, is really cool. He hits a C# right before it - "She gets mad/And she STARTS to CRY"
― timellison, Sunday, 27 September 2020 18:00 (three years ago) link
Hey, welcome back!
― Erdős-szám 69 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 27 September 2020 18:05 (three years ago) link
The two lines that end on E put the E over the A chord so idk how you'd hear that. And Ds and F#s appear over the A chord as often as the As and F#s appear over the G chord. Any time there's a G in the melody, it is a dissonant 7th above the A chord that falls downward to F# and then to D - if there is a centre or resolution in "but if he comes back again"/"tell him to wait right here for me", it is surely not on the Gs on "he comes" and "wait right". Those are tensions. I don't see anything at all in the melody to indicate a G centre.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Sunday, 27 September 2020 18:10 (three years ago) link
2xp
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Sunday, 27 September 2020 18:11 (three years ago) link
Sorry, don't mean to be snippy. The sense of tonality and anticipation is definitely blurred because of the disconnect between melody and harmony so I see what you mean but I really can't hear most of the melody as chordal extensions when there's never any resolution to G and the arpeggiation is so clearly the main structuring principle. The F# never functions like a leading note.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Sunday, 27 September 2020 18:24 (three years ago) link
This thread led to an imo great discussion with a former ilxor btw, about this song and "Dreams" (and "Man on the Moon"):
Only clicked today that the melody is in D and mostly arpeggiates the D triad but there is no D chord (I) in the song. The harmony just cycles between the G and A (IV and V) chords, w no real connection to the melody.#musictheory #altrock #janesaddictionhttps://t.co/KuI5kGOd32— Sundar Subramanian (@SundarSubrama13) September 25, 2020
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Sunday, 27 September 2020 22:36 (three years ago) link
Oh, I definitely do not think there's any sense of G being the center. I could see ending the song on A if you had to end it on something, lol.
The two lines that end on E put the E over the A chord so idk how you'd hear that.
No, the first one anticipates the A chord.
I wasn't saying As and F#s only happen on the G chord, just that when they do, it sounds like an emphasis on a non-chordal tone much more so than anything to do with anticipating D or spelling out that non-existent D major triad as an underlying center. And yeah, you're absolutely right that there are notes like F# and B that are emphasized over the A chord as well.
― timellison, Monday, 28 September 2020 00:01 (three years ago) link
You know how there are ragas where you have a scale and then you have important tones that aren't necessarily tonic/third/fifth? I think this is like that, mixolydian mode on A with an emphasis on the sixth in particular and the fourth a little too.
― timellison, Monday, 28 September 2020 00:18 (three years ago) link
Oh, that's interesting. bVII-I definitely could be a Mixolydian cadence but the metrical placement makes it hard for me to hear A as the I, since G is always on the downbeat.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Monday, 28 September 2020 00:53 (three years ago) link
Right!
― timellison, Monday, 28 September 2020 01:02 (three years ago) link
Not that Rob Thomas's ears should be dispositive regarding anything but it is interesting (if unpleasant) to consider his version. He wimped out and sang it a fifth lower (so the chords are, or should be, C-D and the melody is built around the G triad in my hearing) - but look what he does to the first chord. He plays the C chord in second inversion (with G in the bass) and adds a 9th (D) as the highest voice, making it similar to a Gsus chord (with an add6). I think that suggests that he probably heard G as a centre.
https://youtu.be/6BPgTkuDU-0
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Monday, 28 September 2020 01:29 (three years ago) link
I guess, as with the Corrs's version of "Dreams", the cover is imo less interesting because it is more conventional - but the conventionality does indicate something to me.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Monday, 28 September 2020 01:34 (three years ago) link
Ha, in this live version, Jane's played it a semitone lower but they not only introduce the song with a vamp on the Db chord but actually end the song with a cadence on the Db triad, making it clear that the Gb and Ab chords were IV and V!
https://youtu.be/-PzoKyv9fvk
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Monday, 28 September 2020 01:50 (three years ago) link
Wait, I was getting too excited about my thesis. They ends it on the Gb, which supports the Lydian hearing.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Monday, 28 September 2020 01:55 (three years ago) link
Clearly I need to watch TV and let my ears rest.
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Monday, 28 September 2020 02:05 (three years ago) link
Dreams is in A natural minor. They resolve to the A minor chord twice in the instrumental bridge before the see-saw from F to G resumes.
― Halfway there but for you, Monday, 28 September 2020 23:01 (three years ago) link
Yeah, A minor is what I was saying - thanks for spotting that in the bridge, though. Also, welcome if you're a new poster and hi if you're a new name for an old poster!
― The nexus of the crisis and the origin of storms (Sund4r), Monday, 28 September 2020 23:35 (three years ago) link
Yeah, welcome!
― Erdős-szám 69 (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 29 September 2020 00:22 (three years ago) link
They ends it on the Gb, which supports the Lydian hearing.
tbf every band was ending songs with a ringing IV chord in '97
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Tuesday, 29 September 2020 01:05 (three years ago) link
I hear "Jane Says" as IV-V as well and not Lydian. it's hard for me to feel any piece of music as truly Lydian though
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Tuesday, 29 September 2020 01:06 (three years ago) link
Helen Reddy recently passed away, and it reminded me how much I love the chord progression in 'I Am Woman'. It feels like a classic country music modulation when the verse goes to a flat 3rd to set up the chorus in F. At least that's how I hear it playing, with the song being in G.
― campreverb, Friday, 9 October 2020 16:58 (three years ago) link
i thought about "landslide" just now and how the melody strays from the repeating chord structure. thinking about what the "correct" chords would be. this just popped into my head so i haven't actually dug into it at all but to my ears it sounds like it could be re-harmonized.
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Friday, 23 October 2020 22:44 (three years ago) link
(i mean the verses)
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Friday, 23 October 2020 22:45 (three years ago) link
Hm, we were singing/playing it recently and I just checked the sheet music - the verses mostly seem built around chord members to me. The chorus strays a little more, although a lot of it can just be explained as suspensions and anticipations. What were you thinking of?
― I guess I'd be lonesome (Sund4r), Saturday, 24 October 2020 17:19 (three years ago) link
specifically the "i saw my reflection in the snow covered hills" part
― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Saturday, 24 October 2020 17:27 (three years ago) link
It seems to be the standard Buckingham/Nicks "withholding the I" idea that happens in "Dreams" and "I Think I'm In Trouble" and probably many others. The melody outlines the I chord but the chords themselves dodge it-- in "Landslide"'s verses we're going IV - I6 - ii - I6, that inversion is enough to feint the ear, I think.
― flamboyant goon tie included, Saturday, 24 October 2020 20:37 (three years ago) link
Interesting: you would intuitively hear the Eb-Bb/D-Cm7-Bb/D progression as I-V6-vi-V6 in Eb and in the first verse, the melody mostly does outline the Eb chord. In the second verse, a lot of the Ebs in the melody become Ds and there's more of a suggestion of the Bb chord. It's not obvious to me that Bb is the tonal centre until the chorus, though, when the Bb chord finally appears on strong bars.
― I guess I'd be lonesome (Sund4r), Saturday, 24 October 2020 21:11 (three years ago) link
Wait, by "second verse" I meant the part that starts "mirror in the sky..." and by "first verse", I meant the part before that, although those aren't the same, actually.
― I guess I'd be lonesome (Sund4r), Saturday, 24 October 2020 21:17 (three years ago) link
Actually, the line crüt mentions is the first that outlines Bb instead of Eb.
― I guess I'd be lonesome (Sund4r), Saturday, 24 October 2020 21:21 (three years ago) link
I posted a question over here that may be of interest to some of you:
Halloween Music
― Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Wednesday, 28 October 2020 00:15 (three years ago) link
Can anyone recommend good books or videos or articles on the music theory of John Coltrane that goes a little beyond just “here’s how giant steps changes work” ?
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Thursday, 5 November 2020 01:19 (three years ago) link
Good question. Not me, sorry
― And Then There’s Maudit (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 December 2020 22:40 (three years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbj6bn6mZto
― And Then There’s Maudit (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 25 December 2020 22:41 (three years ago) link
Been waiting for him to finish this book for years.
Was just working on BWV 38.6 with James Redd:https://www.bach-chorales.com/BWV0038_6.htmhttps://open.spotify.com/track/6tgIyDZKQ3i4G2kOMNR7Q2?si=I13lPCy_RgWqYfY9pn6MqQhttp://www.bach-cantatas.com/Texts/Chorale085-Eng3.htm
It's probably the most dramatic example I've seen of a chorale where Bach has tried to graft a functional harmonization onto a modal hymn melody. The melody is very obviously in E Phrygian but Bach has harmonized it in A minor despite the fact that only the third phrase of the melody lends itself at all to a tonal centre on A. The hymn begins on a B and ends on an E. The first, second, and final (!) phrases all end with half cadences on E (V in A minor). The third is the only one that ends with an authentic cadence. The fourth modulates to G, which is obv the relative major of E minor but is an unusual key change for a piece that is otherwise in A minor. I'm not sure it even works completely but it is interesting that we get the only authentic cadence in the home key on "He alone is the good shepherd"; we also get an authentic cadence in G on "who can free Israel" but are denied resolution on "from all his sings".
― Sharp! Distance! (Sund4r), Saturday, 2 January 2021 20:43 (three years ago) link
*The third is the only one that ends with an authentic cadence in A minor.
― Sharp! Distance! (Sund4r), Saturday, 2 January 2021 20:48 (three years ago) link
The discussion of which also made me think of this quote for some reason: rolling enlightenment music discussion thread
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 3 January 2021 16:17 (three years ago) link
Now I've got my kid's piano teacher involved in this.
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 3 January 2021 20:49 (three years ago) link
WIkipedia agrees about the Phrygian nature of this section:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aus_tiefer_Not_schrei_ich_zu_dir,_BWV_38
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 3 January 2021 20:51 (three years ago) link
But not this gentlemen:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1VFPJj-950
The hymn melody itself is an E Phrygian melody but the Bach chorale functions (if somewhat awkwardly) in A minor because of the way it's harmonized.
― Sharp! Distance! (Sund4r), Sunday, 3 January 2021 22:12 (three years ago) link
Unless that guy is using some notation system I've never come across, his harmonic analysis seems wrong? I've never heard of anyone writing Roman numerals based on the relative major key for a minor-key piece and can't imagine why you would want to - he also makes no distinctions between different chord qualities or inversions.
― Sharp! Distance! (Sund4r), Sunday, 3 January 2021 22:18 (three years ago) link
Notable that Gs are always natural in the melody but G#s are used in the harmony parts to make it function in A minor.
― Sharp! Distance! (Sund4r), Sunday, 3 January 2021 22:19 (three years ago) link
Yup.
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 3 January 2021 22:31 (three years ago) link
Somehow this controversy is not lighting up the borad in quite the same way as “Sweet Home Alabama” vs. “Werewolves of London.”
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 4 January 2021 03:34 (three years ago) link
Is there a controversy? I just thought it was an interesting example.
― Sharp! Distance! (Sund4r), Monday, 4 January 2021 03:46 (three years ago) link
Ha, no, was just making a joke, I agree.
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 4 January 2021 04:14 (three years ago) link
Right now though it seems to just be a folie à deux. #OneThread.
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 4 January 2021 04:16 (three years ago) link
I just came across this, but am too tired to even read, so I am putting it here:
The basic texture of these settings seems to have been adapted from the Calvinist psalters, but the melody is placed consistently in the soprano part rather than the tenor, so that a listening congregation could the more easily sing along by ear, as the title recommends. The idea of transposing the cantus firmus to the soprano may have merely been an obvious solution to a practical problem, but it may also reflect the influence of the villanella or other Italian song styles that were making their way in Germany thanks to the book trade. In any case, Osiander’s were the first “Bach chorales.” They not only show the antecedents of the practice that J. S. Bach would bring to its stylistic peak a century and a half later, but they also give some idea of the extreme utilitarianism and stylistic conservatism of the atmosphere in which Bach would work his compositional miracles.Taruskin, Richard. Music from the Earliest Notations to the Sixteenth Century: The Oxford History of Western Music . Oxford University Press.
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 4 January 2021 04:26 (three years ago) link
I actually just started reading Lewis Porter's article "John Coltrane's 'A Love Supreme': Jazz Improvisation as Composition" from the Autumn 1985 issue of the Journal of the American Musicological Society when listening to ALS tonight and working out what's going on.
― Sharp! Distance! (Sund4r), Tuesday, 5 January 2021 03:44 (three years ago) link
It seems pretty thorough.
― Sharp! Distance! (Sund4r), Tuesday, 5 January 2021 03:54 (three years ago) link
I have his Coltrane bio, which is quite good.
― Dog Heavy Manners (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 5 January 2021 04:00 (three years ago) link
Nobody: "Are academic music theorists above Navy SEAL copypasta?"
4llen C4dwallader:
whoops, didn't properly edit out emails last time, let's try again https://t.co/Ioi0VjcO0t pic.twitter.com/KOPeu6IEqJ— Megan Lavengood (@meganlavengood) February 25, 2021
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Friday, 26 February 2021 00:38 (three years ago) link
Every time I see the name "Cadwallader" I think about that Twilight Zone episode
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_Clause
Click the link to "Mr. Cadwallader", wiki can be quite eloquent
― flamboyant goon tie included, Friday, 26 February 2021 01:13 (three years ago) link
Haha
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Friday, 26 February 2021 02:37 (three years ago) link
Haha Wikipedia has Megan's back (for now): https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Cadwallader
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Friday, 26 February 2021 14:47 (three years ago) link
Apologies for more ILE but I somehow missed that Timothy Jackson is suing his whole department, the Board of Regents, and a grad student for conducting an investigation, "criticisms of 'the review and editorial practices' of the Journal of Schenkerian Studies", and "threats to remove [ him ] from the Journal":
For anyone interested, here are pdfs of the complaint and exhibits: https://t.co/2cmBIuzV88Tl;dr: Jackson, represented by Michael Allen and Jonathan Mitchell, is suing under 1983 for violation of 1st and 14th Am. rights as well as state law defamation for calling him racist— Nick Curry (@ncurr) January 15, 2021
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Sunday, 28 February 2021 15:55 (three years ago) link
its not always entirely clear to me what the ultimate goal or purpose is with a lot of academic analysis of popular music, aside from sheer scholarly interest (and lines on the CV, ha). With guitar mags, it's usually clear that the articles are there for people to learn specific techniques from. With the analysis of art music, it's easy for me to see how the work is useful for people who want to compose and/or play art music (who are the usual audience for these journals). While I still disagree with him that Radiohead (or, say, "Close to the Edge") is too easy to parse for someone with art music training, it's not 100% clear to me what the readers are going to gain from the exercise: it does not seem that this is going to have the direct benefit of helping (most) people learn how to write and play rock music.
Rereading this old discussion now, this no longer seems outlandish, given how many people in rock and popular music do have a formal musical education these days, and how much pop gets taught academically.
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Sunday, 28 February 2021 16:52 (three years ago) link
Whoa, for a second I thought that Momus had rejoined us.
― The Ballad of Mel Cooley (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 28 February 2021 18:07 (three years ago) link
For some actual music theory, I started reading Lavengood's article in the current MTO issue on timbral analysis in 80s pop music, looking particularly at DX7 presets: https://mtosmt.org/issues/mto.20.26.3/mto.20.26.3.lavengood.html
Not totally sure what I think yet.
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Sunday, 28 February 2021 18:10 (three years ago) link
Ned posted this link somewhere-else:
https://pitchfork.com/thepitch/decolonizing-electronic-music-starts-with-its-software/
When I first saw the headline I thought "oh good! they're making DAWs free?" But then I realized it was about alternate tunings-- AND the DAW is also free :)
It occurred to me tho "withdrawing from Western systems of tuning" is only half the work, we need somebody to design malleable grids in the sequencing software, get actual rhythms happening instead of the metric stuff we have now
― flamboyant goon tie included, Sunday, 28 February 2021 23:35 (three years ago) link
Fgti, I'm very curious what you mean by actual rhythms or what you're envisioning here?
I'm all for non-Western approaches getting baked into DAWs, but even with say West African music, I still think of it as being 'on a grid', even if you can't notate the 8th note feel/swing of it. But I feel like you can get there with most DAWs by turning quantization off and adjusting things within the 1/4 note grid, or have a swing/shuffle function that's adjustable by %, etc. And there are tempo maps for the overall bpm.
― change display name (Jordan), Monday, 1 March 2021 01:15 (three years ago) link
My idea is this: that one can make a template, somehow-- by beat mapping a sample, for example-- and that the resultant flex-y data could be turned into a stable grid. That, with this template, you'd have fluctuating tempo every sixteenth, every eighth or whatever, and it would simply play things back as such. You're programming on a grid that will lock to a tempo that is constantly breathing to match the desired rhythm. You could theoretically create these templates, work from them, share them, and build tracks very simply with them, snapping to grid, and being able to achieve rhythms that are far more complicated than "16 steps and a swing variable; you gotta nudge to find the groove".
Imagine for example that you could automatically perform a loop, have the DAW recognize all the deviations of your performance, snap your grid to them, but NOT be dealing with "tempo changes every sixteenth note"? Instead have some other system of programming that parsed out the information? (I don't know if you've ever worked with projects where the tempo shifts every beat, or less, but they are massive RAM sucks, to begin with).
I have been so into "the feel" of certain songs that I've beatmapped them and asked session players to learn to play to the always-changing click. When you get into compound time, too, it's RIDICULOUS how flexible the feel is. You cannot recreate the feel of, say, "Hwwambo" without switching to 6/8 and having the tempo adjust +/- 30bpm every 16th note. The idea of being able to create a grid in this way, that you could easily shift from global tempo to global tempo, idk it sounds very useful to me.
Already it is so difficult to use DAWs in anything other than simple time. Idk, I think the whole concept of "time" could be massively overhauled within DAWs in extremely positive ways
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 1 March 2021 04:22 (three years ago) link
Wow, I just think of these things totally differently. To me it has nothing to do with tempo - like "Hwwambo" (assuming you're talking about the DJ NF track) is locked to 130 bpm. Tempo changes would mean the quarter note is slowing down or speeding up, everything in between is just feel.
In between every quarter note is a world of note placement choices that include the standard gridded 8th/16th/32nd/triplets/etc but also everything in between. And we can think of those as however we want (as 8th notes that are swung more or less, or pushed/pulled), but that's really where the feel and the folklore is. For example, attempts to accurately notate a New Orleans snare drum part kinda bother me, since it doesn't square with Western notation and you just need to use your ears.
It gets interesting when it comes to programming on a computer, but I basically feel the same way about it. My DAW doesn't have a great swing/shuffle function, but I think others do, and I can imagine dialing in the amount of swing on a sliding scale to get pretty close to how a drummer would play it. That's how I visualize it when I'm playing, anyway. And when I am programming it on a computer, I just turn off the quantization and move notes/samples around in between the quarter notes to get the feel I want.
I get that it would be more laborious if you're not using loops, and that DAWs should have more support for rhythms that don't fit neatly on a straight 8th or triplet grid. But what you're talking about sounds like a crazy workaround to me - it seems like it would be easier to get a session player who's familiar with playing Brazilian or African music. :)
― change display name (Jordan), Monday, 1 March 2021 15:36 (three years ago) link
My idea is this: that one can make a template, somehow-- by beat mapping a sample, for example-- and that the resultant flex-y data could be turned into a stable grid. That, with this template, you'd have fluctuating tempo every sixteenth, every eighth or whatever, and it would simply play things back as such. You're programming on a grid that will lock to a tempo that is constantly breathing to match the desired rhythm
iiuc you can already do exactly this in logic if you pick a region and go to 'make groove template' in the quantize dropdown, it will create a quantization preset based on the exact timing fluctuations of whatever midi you give it.
― exist in theory (esby), Monday, 1 March 2021 15:55 (three years ago) link
I’m a rank amateur and a non-music maker but I do wonder what you knowledgeable folks make of this piece:
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/03/08/the-musicological-zest-of-switched-on-pop
― pomenitul, Monday, 1 March 2021 16:55 (three years ago) link
@ Jordan, considering the work re: Allami's adjustments to tuning, and that there are already existing workarounds (you can just load up a preprogrammed scale, ne?), and my own stumbling blocks in music creation, it just occurred to me that rebuilding the way DAWs address "time" would be (in my view) a good contribution to serving Allami's thesis. "Hwwambo" is far more complicated, in my view, than you've described! Already, dealing with compound time (the track is in 6/8 or 3/4, depending if you're prioritizing the hook or the beat) makes swing functions weird and nigh-unusable...
but @ esby, if these methods exist already and I just haven't read the manual, then... I'm gonna read the manual :)
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 1 March 2021 18:00 (three years ago) link
That's probably true re: the swing function getting confused. But still, if I want to make a beat like that I would start by programming most of those parts as 1/4 note triplets over a 4/4 grid, turn off quantize/snap to grid, and then slide the notes around until it felt right. Personally I don't know that I'd ever trust a DAW with that because I know what I want to hear and I'm used to these types of rhythms, but sure, it would be great if it was natively supported!
I wonder how that track was actually produced...my guess is that he based it on a sampled hand drum loop, and manually played/triggered the rest of the samples and synths over that? But it could have been sliding one-shot samples and midi notes around with a mouse (how I would do it), who knows.
― change display name (Jordan), Monday, 1 March 2021 18:49 (three years ago) link
Yeah I would guess that's the case! I know it was made in FL that's all I know
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 1 March 2021 20:59 (three years ago) link
What did you think, pom? I've never listened to Switched on Pop, in part because I'm not into podcasts and would rather read a transcript every time. I really hated their Vox piece about Beethoven but I gather from the Ross piece that the actual podcast was better and more nuanced? I tried to follow Asaf Peres's Top 40 Theory for a little while but I just don't share his passion for contemporary chart pop and don't really have a professional reason to keep up anymore. (He at least actually works with songwriters and producers from what I understand.) I do appreciate really deep dives like the things that MTO publishes and it's fun and sometimes helpful to break down these things once in a while e.g. on here, among other repertoire.
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Tuesday, 2 March 2021 04:53 (three years ago) link
Yeah, I'm with you on all that. These podcasts have much to teach me due to my lack of musical training, but I just can't bring myself to sink even an extra second into contemporary chart pop.
― pomenitul, Tuesday, 2 March 2021 16:44 (three years ago) link
*washes hands*
― flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 2 March 2021 17:02 (three years ago) link
Haha. Pom, are you just looking for some music appreciation/analytical listening material? There must be lots out there on classical and progressive or heavy rock, surely? Have you read John Covach?
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 3 March 2021 03:06 (three years ago) link
I can't read sheet music so if Covach is layman-friendly, I'd be interested in checking out his writings, sure.
― pomenitul, Wednesday, 3 March 2021 03:11 (three years ago) link
(Sorry for shitting up this thread btw. I am a dreamer of dreams but not a music-maker.)
― pomenitul, Wednesday, 3 March 2021 03:16 (three years ago) link
I'll look for things.
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 3 March 2021 03:33 (three years ago) link
Is something like this layman-friendly?: http://www.icce.rug.nl/~soundscapes/DATABASES/AWP/ct.shtml
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 3 March 2021 03:38 (three years ago) link
I'd say so, yeah (it helps that I owned a guitar when I was a teenager). Thanks!
― pomenitul, Wednesday, 3 March 2021 03:39 (three years ago) link
Pollack analysed every Beatles song that way.
This is one of my favourite papers. I think it's pretty readable without needing to read notation, although being able to read rhythms would help: https://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.09.15.5/mto.09.15.5.adams.html . MTO provides audio and video examples with the articles, which also gives you some of what the podcasts can provide.
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 3 March 2021 03:43 (three years ago) link
I do get what's going on when there are audio samples. Tbh I could probably learn to read notation if I set my mind to it, and I've been meaning to for ages, it's just very time-consuming. But I'll get there soon enough.
― pomenitul, Wednesday, 3 March 2021 03:49 (three years ago) link
https://www.mtosmt.org/issues/mto.11.17.3/mto.11.17.3.osborn.html ?
― to party with our demons (Sund4r), Wednesday, 3 March 2021 04:11 (three years ago) link
Random thing I have always wondered:
How would you describe the meter of Steve Howe's guitar solo section at 4:46? It seems to shift in a way that I can't quite get a handle on.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fUudna1Xuw
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 21 April 2021 13:35 (two years ago) link
Video not available here. Which piece is it?
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 21 April 2021 13:56 (two years ago) link
It's the part where the band drops out and he plays that open string e blues lick that's slightly offset and then the band comes in intermittently with those slide shots.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 21 April 2021 14:05 (two years ago) link
In which song?
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 21 April 2021 14:10 (two years ago) link
Oh sorry, Yours is No Disgrace by Yes.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 21 April 2021 14:12 (two years ago) link
Is this the one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nx_GIji9EGw
― pomenitul, Wednesday, 21 April 2021 14:17 (two years ago) link
Huh, it sounds to me like it's in essentially 4/4, but they're messing around with different groupings within that? Like for the three bars of solo guitar, I hear it as a 9 beat phrase + an 8 beat phrase + a 7 beat phrase (which of course comes out even if you count straight through). Then there are those 8 beat phrases where the slide-up hits are on the first two 1/4 notes, followed by 6 beats of guitar. This weirded me out at first because the slides make it sound like a pick-up, but I think it's better to consider them starting on a downbeat. Then one 4/4 bar of transition into the next section.
― change display name (Jordan), Wednesday, 21 April 2021 14:17 (two years ago) link
That sounds right to me. Tricky!
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 21 April 2021 14:23 (two years ago) link
Yeah, this song just feels like they have 5/4 bars thrown in at their leisure to transition from section to section... the two note rising added upbeat into 4:32... the first bar of the guitar solo at 4:46... another added beat at 4:58.
― zaddy’s home (flamboyant goon tie included), Wednesday, 21 April 2021 14:24 (two years ago) link
Isn't it a little bit early to be getting this Yessed out
― change display name (Jordan), Wednesday, 21 April 2021 14:31 (two years ago) link
I have the Yes songbook published in 1981... but none of these sections of the song are included! The descriptions given here seem right to me, though. But who knows how they would have actually conceived the bar lines, especially before Wakeman was around to give them the "academic" perspective.
― Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 21 April 2021 14:41 (two years ago) link
I mean, they might have thought of 9 + 8 + 7 as six syncopated bars of 4.
― Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 21 April 2021 14:43 (two years ago) link
Jordan, sund4r and FGTI are the people I would most expect to be able to answer this, and the fact that even you three don't think there's an obvious/clear way to describe it makes me feel a little better.
One thing that really throws me off too is that when it goes into the very next part in D, they have similar "slide hits" but the slides start on the 1 of the second bar of each two bar phrase, whereas they don't seem to be starting on the "1" during the E guitar part.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Wednesday, 21 April 2021 14:45 (two years ago) link
Personally I do think they start on the 1 during the first part, partly informed by that next section. But if I've learned one thing it's that even people in the same band might hear things differently, and as long as they're not improvising (or as long their interpretation still enables them to play together) it's fine.
The most extreme example was a bass player who started a song, and heard his part as starting on the 1, whereas the rest of the band heard his notes as a pickup. So he heard the beat as this weird syncopated thing rather than the snare on the 2 & 4, but it all worked out!
― change display name (Jordan), Wednesday, 21 April 2021 15:21 (two years ago) link
This is p much the same thing tbh, as long as they're hearing the accents in the same place.
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 21 April 2021 16:13 (two years ago) link
That's my point, it sounds the same and it was unlikely to have been written down either way.
― Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 21 April 2021 16:19 (two years ago) link
iiuc you can already do exactly this in logic if you pick a region and go to 'make groove template' in the quantize dropdown, it will create a quantization preset based on the exact timing fluctuations of whatever midi you give it.― exist in theory (esby), Monday, March 1, 2021 3:55 PM (two months ago) bookmarkflaglink
― exist in theory (esby), Monday, March 1, 2021 3:55 PM (two months ago) bookmarkflaglink
yes, you just click edit > decolonize software
― in twelve parts (lamonti), Thursday, 20 May 2021 05:10 (two years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epqYft12nV4
― No Particular Place to POLL (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 14 August 2021 16:14 (two years ago) link
I've never heard this version of the song before, or heard this key change. I was talking in the Fav. Chord Change thread about a very similar modulation - this is C minor with an A bass to C♭ major.
― Halfway there but for you, Saturday, 14 August 2021 17:19 (two years ago) link
The key change is down to Rachmaninoff not Eric Carmen, right?
― Soundtracked by an ecojazz mixtape (Tom D.), Saturday, 14 August 2021 17:30 (two years ago) link
Think it is down to Celine's producer or arranger if I heard correctly.
― No Particular Place to POLL (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 14 August 2021 17:39 (two years ago) link
David Foster's arrangement, if I understand that video correctly.
― Halfway there but for you, Saturday, 14 August 2021 17:39 (two years ago) link
Classic producer's trick of pushing the key a bit higher to make the singer work and add emotional impact by having the audience hear a bit of strain, although often done over the whole song and not just a key change. Believe HDH did this with Levi Stubbs, for example.
― No Particular Place to POLL (James Redd and the Blecchs), Saturday, 14 August 2021 17:41 (two years ago) link
take away chord scales from jazz education and replace them with repertoire https://t.co/irMEj1yCGY— Ethan Iverson (@ethan_iverson) August 23, 2021
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Monday, 23 August 2021 19:35 (two years ago) link
^thoughts?
Agree? Mostly.
― Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 August 2021 19:38 (two years ago) link
CST kind of like a cheat sheet approach. At least one younger guy who is doing pretty well for himself now once refused to answer my question in that line and said “I don’t like to think of music that way.”
― Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 August 2021 19:40 (two years ago) link
I mean I have used that cheat sheet but I don’t feel good about it, as Jon Stewart said about a certain crossword, although that has since upped its game.
― Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 August 2021 19:59 (two years ago) link
Wonder how many will participate in this discussion?
― Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 August 2021 20:00 (two years ago) link
Wait, I see we almost talked about the same thing two yrs ago here, also bc of Iverson.
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Monday, 23 August 2021 20:52 (two years ago) link
Ha, was it the thing he wrote about Jeff Goldblum and the Dorian Mode?
― Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 23 August 2021 21:08 (two years ago) link
Yeah, I think you linked it.
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Monday, 23 August 2021 21:09 (two years ago) link
I really dislike grandstanding statements like these... it tries to codify something that cannot be so easily codified. Learning jazz theory is useful to those who have facility for it and find an application for it in their practice. Others may not find they have a facility for it, and may question the validity of it being taught. Others may have a facility for it, but not find an application for it, and may question the validity of it being taught. I have met too many spectacular musicians who process musical information in jazz theory terms, and generate amazing music while applying jazz theory concepts to say that it is "less important" or "more important" than learning repertoire.
When presented with arguments like these, or the "Western music theory is racist" one from a few months back, my mind tends to get all bifurcated. Of course I agree. Of course I also disagree. I feel like I could provide a wealth of points and counterpoints that prove and disprove either side of such an argument. In my subconscious, though, there's another voice that is screaming: why are we making grandstanding statements like these? Why have I made similar statements, myself, in the past? I feel as if these statements express far more about the individual who is making them, and their private points of concern, and psychological projection, and their own personal frustrations, than they actually do about larger truths about music education and/or music appreciation
― what's fgti up to these days? nothing. she's fake (flamboyant goon tie included), Tuesday, 24 August 2021 01:16 (two years ago) link
I don’t have time to scroll up right now, but I’m sure whatever I type now will be similar to what I typed then. Like a few hours ago I heard “Hit the Road Jack” and thought “I wonder if I should mention The Andalusian Cadence?” but I figured we already must have done it.
― Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 24 August 2021 01:20 (two years ago) link
Okay, I will reply to fgti and say that CST is not all of or the only Jazz Theory.
― Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 24 August 2021 01:21 (two years ago) link
One critique of CST is that it divorces the scale choice from harmonic function, it’s simply one scale per chord type. Okay, maybe there is a little more to it but that’s the way it is usually taken. It doesn’t get into the nuances of the different extensions and chromaticisms (chromatics?) that can be used, one size fits all.
― Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 24 August 2021 01:27 (two years ago) link
I keep thinking about this and why I mostly agree with Iverson but don’t want to post into the void.
― Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 27 August 2021 22:56 (two years ago) link
… and Lee Konitz too, as far as I know
― Hitsville Ukase (James Redd and the Blecchs), Friday, 27 August 2021 22:59 (two years ago) link
Was banging out "Keep on Loving You" by REO Speedwagon on piano/voice/guitar tonight and realized it does the same kind of thing as "Man on the Moon" - seems like an F Lydian thing with the chords moving F-G-Am-G over an F pedal point through and a melody line that seems circumscribed by an F arpeggio, and even stays in that space during the pre-chorus with F-G-F-G-Am-G until we finally get C-F-G in the chorus and it's confirmed that F and G are I and IV and the F at the start of the melody is heard as an accented dissonance that resolves down to E.
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 6 October 2021 01:25 (two years ago) link
That was a bit mangled. In the verse, it seems like F Lydian with the chords moving F-G-Am-F over an F pedal point and a melody circumscribed by the F arpeggio and even stays in that space in the pre-chorus. When we get to the chorus, we finally get a C-F-G progression and it's confirmed F and G were IV and V. The F that starts the melody in the chorus is heard as an accented neighbour to E.
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 6 October 2021 03:51 (two years ago) link
The introduction of "Sara" by Fleetwood Mac uses exactly the same chord progression in F Lydian, except it resolves to F major for most of the song (then back to F Lydian for the bridges).
― Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 6 October 2021 14:01 (two years ago) link
F-G-Am-F
ugh, F-G-Am-G
Interesting re "Sara"; will revisit that
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 6 October 2021 15:15 (two years ago) link
The serious replies to this are lol:
I’m sorry but the UK rhythmic value names make no sense to me pic.twitter.com/Fm5SEIA3Iv— Robert 🎃 Komaniecki (@Komaniecki_R) October 20, 2021
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Wednesday, 20 October 2021 15:58 (two years ago) link
Tempting:https://www.7dmedia.com/products/kingcrimsondiscipline
― Sequel to Sadness (Sund4r), Thursday, 11 November 2021 22:29 (two years ago) link
So I never broke down the solo to "Don't Fear the Reaper" (as classic as it is) before but just realized how cool the modulation is. The song is in a modal A minor (Aeolian) but we get that G# sounding like a leading note right under the fermata A minor chord before the solo begins. The G# (Ab) and C get reinterpreted as the two upper voices of an F minor chord in the first arpeggio (F-Ab-C) which then moves to a G7/F (F-G-B) arpeggio, iv and V in the chromatic mediant key of C minor, which becomes the key for the solo (a functional C minor, where the leading note is generally raised).
― treat the gelignite tenderly for me (Sund4r), Sunday, 21 November 2021 15:49 (two years ago) link
Good points. Then there's something uncanny about the return to the A minor riff from the G.Another nice touch in this song is the single E maj chord in the verse (or prechorus), the V of A harmonic minor.
― Halfway there but for you, Sunday, 21 November 2021 16:17 (two years ago) link
I always get lost metrically (pvmic) during the solo break but still have never gotten around to pinning it down.
― Sterl of the Quarter (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 21 November 2021 17:31 (two years ago) link
Good points. Then there's something uncanny about the return to the A minor riff from the G.
Yeah, it ends on a sustained G (the dominant in C minor), which is the pedal point (on m^7) in the A minor riff.
Is the chord under "the sun" in the pre-chorus E major or E5? I don't hear a third (G#) there and Dharma sings a B in the melody - so it still seems like a modal Aeolian cadence to me. Even if I were to strum full triads there, I think Em would sound more natural than E.
― treat the gelignite tenderly for me (Sund4r), Sunday, 21 November 2021 18:04 (two years ago) link
I think it all lines up in 4/4, or at least adds up to multiples of 4, if you count the arpeggios as eighth notes starting on 1, which means the cymbals enter on 1 after four bars and the full band entering on 2 after another four bars + one beat. Pretty tricky because the arpeggio pattern is a three-note pattern accented in 4/4 so the barlines and chord changes always land in different spots in the pattern and it actually runs for a total of 33 eighth notes (eight bars + one beat). Also the drums are a bit unpredictable during the ensemble playing under the lead guitar but I think the bassist mostly keeps the quarter-note pulse.
― treat the gelignite tenderly for me (Sund4r), Sunday, 21 November 2021 19:01 (two years ago) link
*full band enters on 2
― treat the gelignite tenderly for me (Sund4r), Sunday, 21 November 2021 19:02 (two years ago) link
Thanks, makes sense.This is too long to watch now but seems like it might be useful for some:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=44t2KJQUh3Y
― Sterl of the Quarter (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 22 November 2021 22:35 (two years ago) link
Lots of comments on the order of "I have been trying to understand this stuff for decades with success until I finally saw your explanation. Thanks!"
― Sterl of the Quarter (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 22 November 2021 22:37 (two years ago) link
"Yesterday" by the Beatles and "My Love" by Wings start with the same progression (a fourth apart) of four chords, but because both songs are in F, the harmonic relationship to the respective songs is different:
Yesterday: F -- Em7 -- A7 -- Dm I -- ii of D Dorian -- V of vi -- vi
My Love: B♭maj7 -- Am7 -- D7 -- Gm7 IV -- iii -- V of ii -- ii
(ignoring inversions)
― Halfway there but for you, Friday, 10 December 2021 16:38 (two years ago) link
Posting here before possibly posting on the Jazz Thread, written by an old friend of ours: https://www.thenation.com/article/culture/barry-harris-obit/
― Santa’s Got a Brand New Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 16 December 2021 16:51 (two years ago) link
He refers to “Harris’s ‘bebop scale’” but I was under the impression that Barry Harris himself hated that term, despite almost everyone else using it.
― Santa’s Got a Brand New Borad (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 16 December 2021 23:46 (two years ago) link
Hi dere! Hey Sund4r, are you sure on that G# in the fermata chord on "Reaper?" I hear a G natural in the guitar that's panned a little right (which is kinda cool because it makes it momentarily a seventh resonance on the tonic minor chord).
― timellison, Thursday, 6 January 2022 18:51 (two years ago) link
That F minor arpeggio coming out of the blue feels a little Twilight Zone-ish (although I think actual Twilight Zone riff has a tritone).
― timellison, Thursday, 6 January 2022 18:57 (two years ago) link
The Blackstar thread mentioned Bowie's cover of the Walker Brothers' "Nite Flights". There's something very interesting about these chord changes. Both versions of the song have an intro, one verse and chorus that repeats to fade. Though the melody includes some unusual notes, I would describe the verse as A major and the chorus as D Mixolydian:
VERSE: A C#m F#m C#m I iii vi iii in A majorCHORUS: D C D Am I VII I v in D Mixolydian
Aside from performing the song a tone lower, Bowie changes the chord where the song transitions from verse to chorus ("has hit the bloodlite"): that is, instead of the second iii chord, he uses a ♭III chord (B♭ in his verse key of G).It's a very different effect; with the Walker Brothers, the C chord coming in three bars into the chorus ("on nite flights") has a dizzying, shifting effect on the harmony; Bowie introducing this chord change at the end of the verse punctuates the start of the chorus, but it's like he shows his hand too soon. He's revealing the harmony of the chorus early, it can't have the same effect as the earlier version.
― Halfway there but for you, Friday, 7 January 2022 00:34 (two years ago) link
Are there any good explanations anywhere on the net of modern broadway composition style and where it came from? I just watched Encanto with my kids, and aside from "We Don't Talk About Bruno," which is catchy, I feel like there's this weird modern trend of sort of random-sounding diatonic melodies and chord progressions with a lot of roots and fifths and awkward melodic movement without good voice leading.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 31 January 2022 20:38 (two years ago) link
Ugh
― Tapioca Tumbril (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, 31 January 2022 20:39 (two years ago) link
Actually I guess there were a couple other songs that were ok - Welcome to the Family Madrigal didn't really do what I'm talking about, and neither did Dos Oruguitas, but here's a good example:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKKrfr4To14
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 31 January 2022 20:40 (two years ago) link
The melody sounds like someone just randomly noodling around in a scale.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 31 January 2022 20:41 (two years ago) link
There's something especially awful about it when the chords go from 4 to 5 and the melody goes 5 - 3 - 2 -3, or 5 -3 - 2 -1, it's like nails on a chalkboard for me.
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 31 January 2022 20:42 (two years ago) link
This one is not as awkward, but it still sounds like it was spit out by a diatonic melody generator:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZ9pHBEUWPo
― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, 31 January 2022 20:45 (two years ago) link
The first example sounds like an instance where the lyrics were written in advance of the melody. The composer was tasked with having to make something "poppy" and "hooky" but also keep the same rhythm of a recitative. It reminded me most of the "verses" on uh "Hakuna Matata" where a very-hooky chorus had to be cut with narrative-narrative-narrative and Elton John just kinda wrote some notes down and hoped it'd work. I don't think it's anything new, there are similar kinda "the music suffers at this point because we got a lot of words to get through" moments in a lot of pre-1980 musicals. Good recit is challenging, I would imagine? the part of "Guys And Dolls" I admire the most compositionally isn't any hook at all but a recit: "I've imagined every bit of him / from his strong moral fibre / to the wisdom in his head / to the homey aroma of his pipe..." "You have wished yourself a Scarsdale Galahad / the breakfast-eating Brooks Brothers type..." "Yes! and I will meet him when the time is ripe." (Is it "right"? I forget I'm just quoting from memory.)
So yeah it doesn't sound to me like any modern tendency so much as the collision of lyricist: "here are a lot of words" and producer: "get it done by the weekend and make it hooky"
That song from The Greatest Showman sounds so uncannily like another song I can't place. Is it Adele? That song sounds to me that it wasn't written cold but was written as a copy of another song. Lyricist: "here are some words", producer: "make it sounds like Adele", composer submits, producer: "make it sound more like Adele", composer submits, producer: "have you even fucking listened to Adele? I want it to sound like ADELE", composer writes something that exactly follows the tempo and chord progression of an Adele song but sounds obtuse on its own, producer: "good enough"
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 31 January 2022 22:00 (two years ago) link
So yeah in short the former just sounds like big-budget recit written with the pressure of time and producer expectation
And the latter just sounds like the composer was working with a temp score and being pressured by producers to cut closer and closer to the source
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 31 January 2022 22:03 (two years ago) link
I don't hear what you're hearing on "Waiting On A Miracle" though, it sounds about as well-written as your average 6/8 Kate Bush song, that is to say, it's not bad? Moving to the III at the end of each eight bar phrase (after swaying between IV and V for the rest of the phrase) is definitely "not exactly great", and the modulation at 1:45 is a real clunker, but it doesn't really bother me. Totally serviceable Disney song.
Upon hearing that song from "The Greatest Showman" my boyfriend popped around the corner to say that it was his parents favourite musical ever, that they couldn't stop talking about how amazing the music is. Something I always tell myself is that the producers are almost always right, that when they are pressuring the composer to dumb something down they DO in fact have the best interests of the shareholders at heart
― flamboyant goon tie included, Monday, 31 January 2022 22:15 (two years ago) link
Maybe more appropriate for the "Homemade Jokes" thread, but I just typed:
"I call my man Neapolitan because he wasn't my first choice, but he's a close second"
― flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 1 February 2022 21:54 (two years ago) link
Oh wow, I must have accidentally deleted my bookmark for this thread. So many messages I've missed. Going to catch up!
I was going to say something about how it's interesting that Ed Sheeran's "Shivers" is built from the exact same chord progression (Bm-G-D-A) as "Despacito" and does a lot similarly but the melodic movement in the Sheeran song seems more clearly centred on an Aeolian B minor tonality while "Despacito" seems a little ambiguous between D major and (modal) B minor but it seems v possible to hear D as a tonic.
― The sensual shock (Sund4r), Monday, 14 February 2022 20:37 (two years ago) link
I was waiting for the awkward melody in the Encanto song and it never happened so I don't really know what you're driving at, man alive
also lol fgti
― castanuts (DJP), Monday, 14 February 2022 21:37 (two years ago) link
Hey Sund4r, are you sure on that G# in the fermata chord on "Reaper?" I hear a G natural in the guitar that's panned a little right (which is kinda cool because it makes it momentarily a seventh resonance on the tonic minor chord).
You're totally right. I don't know what I was thinking when I wrote that.
― The sensual shock (Sund4r), Monday, 14 February 2022 21:50 (two years ago) link
How did I never learn the phrase rhythmic displacement before today?
― Magical Misery Tour Spiel (James Redd and the Blecchs), Thursday, 2 June 2022 14:27 (one year ago) link
I wanna talk about the pre-chorus on Portishead “All Mine” and how unprecedented and amazing those note choices are
And how she changes it up on the last pre-chorus to make it even more unhinged
― flamboyant goon tie included, Tuesday, 7 June 2022 22:24 (one year ago) link
It seems that the vocal melody is in the E♭ minor of the verse, while the chords underneath go up and down on B min, C# min and D min? Then in the last prechorus, she's singing a semitone higher, so the melody more-or-less matches the chords underneath for the first time.
― Halfway there but for you, Wednesday, 8 June 2022 02:47 (one year ago) link
yeah this is really something -- the instrumental mods but she...declines to do so?
― J Edgar Noothgrush (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Wednesday, 8 June 2022 08:54 (one year ago) link
I don’t have perfect pitch so I couldn’t name the keys in the car yesterday while listening, but yes, the two primary chords on the pre chorus are bm and then dm, an attractive mediant association
But Beth sings a single same pitch over both chords and it is not the shared pitch (not the D)
Prechoruses 1 and 2, she picks a pitch that clashes with the bm
Prechorus 3 she switches it so it flashes with the dm
And it REALLY clashes, she sounds like she’s losing her mind. My friend Jessie once said “my god Portishead and their middle-class white lady having a breakdown vibes, it’s irresistible”
― flamboyant goon tie included, Wednesday, 8 June 2022 12:49 (one year ago) link
Wow
― No purposes. Sounds. (Sund4r), Monday, 13 June 2022 04:07 (one year ago) link
TIL about the augmented sixth chord from Sund4r.
― Ride into the Sunship (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 19 June 2022 02:11 (one year ago) link