Smashing Pumpkins - Siamese Dream poll

forever and always: "Mayonaise."

"Hummer"

The first half is a 90s rock classic. The second half SUCKS.

ehh kinda...definitely is half-expendable that's for sure

I'm gonna vote Mayonaise

The first half is a 90s rock classic. The second half SUCKS.

So wrong.

Perfect album. Voting "Mayonaise," which should win. "Today" is a close second - what an amazing song!

siamese dream & purple rain in the same week.... too many brainbusters

sticking w/ basics: Cherub Rock

Geek USA. tracks 7/8/9 make for an epic run.

Disarm narrowly over Mayonaise, but it's close.

Best thing about Butch Vig's work on this was that he managed to reduce Corgan's voice to a wisp for most of it - made it easier to enjoy the good things about the band without the appallingly obnoxious one constantly getting in the way.

Not the classic SP album it's made out to be. I'd actually rate Gish, Mellon Collie and maybe even Adore above this one. That said, Soma is an amazing song.

"Soma" kicks my ass every time. definitely my vote.

^

Really won't trust ilm anymore if the top two is not 1. Soma 2. Mayonaise

Not that I've had any respect for you fruits since you voted for the Smiths over the Cure, but whatever.

The second half SUCKS.

Waht fresh madness is this?

Everything a contender except Quiet, Rocket, Luna. Hummer loses points for only becoming transcendent in the last couple of minutes. But really... Mayonaise no question.

I rank 'em:

1. soma
2. geek u.s.a.
3. rocket
4. silverfuck
5. quiet
6. hummer
7. sweet sweet
8. cherub rock
9. mayonaise
10. today
11. disarm
12. luna
13. spaceboy

and I love all of them

I played my 17-year-old copy of this, shittily copied onto a shit tape, on a shitawful car stereo a few weeks ago, and was filled with a shitawfully shameful sense of nostalgia

it ruled but 'Geek USA' is the song that I still have various parts of running through my head as a result, so I voted that

def need to dig this out again soon. I have a real soft spot for Sweet Sweet and Luna - ideas they'd protract on the last part of the follow up record.

I haven't listened to this album in way too long and would like to vote for a deep cut (especially since "Hummer" was one of the few highlights of the show I saw last year), but I gotta go with "Rocket," which I am still kind of bitter wasn't as big a hit as the other singles.

I'm kinda curious which is Ned's favorite.

Voted MAYO

Voting "Mayonaise", but man Mr. Snrub could not be more wrong about the second half being made of SUCK. "Mayo" and "Silverfuck" are among two of the best songs from this era. I think this is probably my most listened to album ever.

imo this is only 2nd to Superunknown as the best of the big '90s alt-rock blockbusters

Nah, this is marginally better than Superunknown, but I'm with you on these two being the tops.

mayonaise
soma
rocket
today
quiet
hummer
sweet sweet
cherub rock
disarm
spaceboy
geek usa
luna
silverfuck

"Silverfuck" way too low.

more like stupidfuck

lol zing

"Soma" or "Hummer". I guess I lean a little towards the former...

Between "Quiet" and "Mayonaise" for me.

Mayonaise. Although I'm not a big fan of these guys in general.

i hope i never stumble upon a lyric sheet for this album, it almost killed my love of "Cherub Rock" when i realized what the words to the chorus are and that they're even worse than "life's a bummer when you're a hummer"

Ha, OTM.

i love this whole album, don't care what anyone sez

Kudos to Alan Moulder, for mixing this like a pop My Bloody Valentine album.

Hummer in all its shining glory. One of my all-time favourite tracks for sure.

I think this must be the album I played most in my life, and seeing that I will never equal that kind of lol-teenage compulsive listening again, it will forever live on as the album I played most.

I have very strong memories of being on a summer tour with my college choir when this came out, listening to it on my buddy's Discman. Because of first impressions, I'm voting "Silverfuck".

"Silverfuck" is probably the greatest encapsulation of what the Pumpkins were doing at the time.

...or it's a big loud dumb mashup of better songs from this album. Compared to almost every other 7+ Pumpkins song* it comes off as incredibly weak and obvious.

*I can't say for any of the Machinas' songs. I haven't listened to either one...

7+ minute

or it's a big loud dumb mashup of better songs from this album

thank you for succinctly describing why this song is awesome

LOL @ DJP

on second thought,Silverfuck & Geek USA could probably switch places on my little rundown upthread...Silverfuck is a longer, gaucher Geek USA, but that "you lie to yourself" part (the only dece part of the song) goes on for a couple of minutes, whereas the "in a dream we are connected" break in Geek USA is too short...I actually don't like this album that much, and a big part of that is bcz I think most of the Billy's nods to 'metal' on here are kind of trite...exception here is Quiet, which is an absolute fucking monster of a song...

Mayonaise is better, though: SD's 1979, Billy hitting a good feeling & riding it out, not at all calling attention to the numerous songwriting left-turns he employs, each one keeping the vibe going while at the same time subtly raising the stakes, building tension to the climax: "I JUST WANNNA BEEEE...MEEEE....!" Prindle goes on about that little "SKREE!" bit of distortion, which is a great hook, and used really well in the song, while at the same time implying the emotional turbulence that "Silverfuck" rather clunkily tries to embody

Song is a pop masterpiece; likely the best thing Billy ever did.

I'm kinda curious which is Ned's favorite.

Don't think I have one. I stand by all this.

i listened to this album this week, it was fantastic with all those memories come flowing through. it has held up really, really well to be honest. i remember at the time thinking that this album would be the best ever and would be hard to top. not sure if the Pumpkins released a better album, though i did like a bunch of their later songs.

just putting this on now in honor of the poll here. will report back soon

wtf:
'happiness will make you wonder will i feel ok'

i must give a shout-out to those strange photographs what with the lyrics all scribbled on them in the booklet.

There is half an album's worth of gold. Most of the 2nd half is garbage.

Be surprised if Soma doesn't win.

Automatic thread bump. This poll is closing tomorrow.

soma has that guitar solo so

^^

voted geek USA, though. Soaring epic followed by bludgeoning epic

two hours to go, looking forward to see what wins. could "Cherub Rock" be the dark horse?

i voted Cherub Rock.

Automatic thread bump. This poll's results are now in.

acceptable

2. Quiet 1
13. Luna 0

Madness.

I would've voted for Luna

pretty impressive how many more votes the 2nd half of the album got than the 1st half, considering how frontloaded the singles all are

"Quiet" is a proper tune of the rocking out nature iirc

somewhat related: TS: "I Am One" vs. "Cherub Rock"

Mad that I missed this poll, would have been unable to choose anyway though.

I love "Quiet" - wish I'd voted for it just so it'd have had a better showing (voted "Mayonaise")

man, i forgot how awesome jimmy chamberlain seemed once

he still seems awesome listening to this album in particular.

When I first heard this album in jr high I thought the drums during the solo in "Geek USA" were the greatest thing ever.

he does seem that way but it's been a long time so i'm sort of trying to re-calibrate my ears for 90s Alt-Rock Production (and Songwriting!).

I was thinking about giving this album a shoutout in the greatest drum albums thread...

Life's a bummer when you're a hummer

i voted for Cherub Rock, but that's because i couldn't pick one, but thought about the one that i hum to myself more than all the others.

tho someone was OTM upthread about Gish being a better album. that shit's in my car tape deck all the time.

It's weird seeing that picture at the top of the thread, the UK version of the CD looks completely different...

I voted 'Hummer' after a bit of thought, definitely my favourite of their mini-epics. I used to love 'Mayonaise' but I'm not sure that'd even be in my Top 5 now.

Yeah, it looks weird to me too. My cd is this one:

http://s.dsimg.com/image/R-2353183-1299605581.jpeg

Damnit, I know this is slightly off topic, but the guitar solo at the end of "Drown" will guarantee that Billy will always have a soft spot in my heart. How can he be so damn good and yet ...

Maybe it was the hair.

dang forgot to vote here for soma.
bang bang yr dead hole in yr head

that's "Silverfuck."

Happy 20th birthday Siamese Dream!

Would have voted for 'Soma'

I'd probably put Quiet third on my list and Luna just above Cherub Rock but otherwise I stand by my ranking upthread

I can understand almost nobody rating it as best on the album, but spaceboy is a really gorgeous and touching song.

Maybe the most loving song he's written outside of For Martha.

JIMMY SMASH

"Quiet" is a proper tune of the rocking out nature iirc

― That Dunkster! (absolutely clean glasses), Sunday, May 1, 2011 6:05 PM (five years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

since i started drumming the "geek usa" drums give me heartburn

1. luna
2. rocket
3. cherub rock
4. hummer
5. geek u.s.a.
6. spaceboy
7. sweet sweet
8. today
9. silverfuck
10. quiet
11. disarm
12. soma
13. mayonaise

but i generally prefer the live versions of these songs, especially 1994 and especially lollapalooza. the band was on fire that summer and were never more aggressive, even during the Machina era.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLHEitwq20w

also swap geek & hummer in my list

God that is inhumanly fast and precise

Anyone else noticed the font used on the sleeve is similar to the one used on TV series Murder, She Wrote?

yes. it's called Agatha. i see it fairly often in ads/signage/copy. i've seen the MCIS font in the wild, too.

timely bump, because i've actually been listening to SD a lot lately, more than i have in years. like i said in the poll thread and probably here, i prefer the faster/more intense/less staid live versions, but you know to state the obvious SD really is one of the best guitar/studio rat records ever. i blasted the 2011 vinyl reissue last night with headphones and heard guitar parts on Hummer and Cherub Rock that i'd never noticed before.

it’s a really beautiful sprawling guitar record. i wish there were more like it. (one record i really connect to it is jimmy eat world’s clarity)

Happy 27th birthday to this sprawling LP which left my Gish-loving teenage self somewhat underwhelmed and nonplussed; but which I now recognize has some kickass songs and is undoubtedly a high point of ‘90s major-label alt-rock (I guess it didn’t get a lot better than this).

fulfill the promise made of tin

man oh man did i write the lyrics to 'Soma' all over my notebooks in high school

haha there are some clunkers in there!

That pretty little gtr part toward the end of “Hummer” is such a nice, subtle moment (from a band that I don’t really associate with such moments).

I feel Loveless all over Siamese Dream - mostly I listen to SP for the guitars and drums, tuning out the vocal parts.

That pretty little gtr part toward the end of “Hummer” is such a nice, subtle moment (from a band that I don’t really associate with such moments).

One of my favourite songs of theirs. I like that part a lot too. I think it might have been a deliberate allusion to this: https://youtu.be/stBOhNxLrbM?t=274

Oh wow... that’s cool

I've been listening to this album a lot... it's remarkable how much I've come around to an LP that I have been lukewarm on for decades. My remaining (light) criticisms boil down to:

1. "Geek USA" doesn't quite fit, and feels like somewhat of a (lesser) cousin to "I Am One" and "Siva";
2. "Silverfuck" is (IMO) somewhat tedious & silly (They are not Jane's Addiction, nor were meant to be);
3. "Luna" is overworked. They honestly could have just used the "Apartment Demo" version (it's a lot better);
4. The album's overall sound (production + mix) is more pristine / labored than I usually go for... but nbd, that's what they worked so hard for (I can always listen to Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain for an, er, alternative...).

"geek usa" does seem connected to those songs but i think the bridge ("in a dream we are connected") puts it over

the end of "hummer" is the best thing bc ever did

hard agree

The inclusion of “geek USA” and “silverfuck” is keeping in line with the albums’s intense extravagant rococo vibe.. “geek USA” really shows off the Queen influence, I think, very “Brighton
Rock” on steroids

ha, the very few times I have ever played this record, Geek USA is one of the songs I always looked forward to the most, for the drumming.

morrisp, do you like pisces iscariot?

I liked it when it came out, yes (especially the Gish/Lull-era stuff). I've been meaning to revisit it... found a cheap copy of the Deluxe Edition at a record store a little while back; may throw it in during a long drive to a dentist appt. tomorrow.

man I WISH Jane's Addiction sounded like Silverfuck, i would probably like them!

Album should have ended after Mayonnaise.

no

Yes mate

this is one of the few overstuffed running-time alt-rock CDs that earns it, really feels full and epic and monumental. it takes time to get to know it. a real challenge for those weaned on the pop-song tightness of idk Nevermind and the Blue Album. and a good tee-up for MCIS being the only noteworthy alt-rock double album and also very much having the feel of a double album. you could maybe cut idk one song from SD, if you had to, but more than that and it'd be diminished in grandeur no matter what the songs were.

Yeah, it doesn't feel overlong, despite its hour-plus length.

This album rules

Disarm is the best song though. I’m surprised it fared so poorly.

I agree that it should end after Mayonaise, specifically at the point where Luna ends.

I love this album but I skip "Disarm", sorry treesh.:(

what's a boy supposed to do

Dirty (a contemporaneous Butch Vig joint) is a few minutes shorter, but feels two hours longer.

I love Dirty but that's completely accurate

Tbh, "Silverfuck" is the only song after "Mayonnaise" I really need. I do really love the other nine songs!

Oh wait, "Luna" - I do like that one.

is that a real song

I think I've been skipping past "Quiet" since the late 90s.

iirc "Silverfuck" is kind of a huge gaping hole. The band just isn't strong enough to carry off that kinda jam.

https://youtu.be/k6zFyT3n0wE

oops, that's supposed to be Mungo's Hi Fi version of Soma which came out a few weeks back

https://youtu.be/k6zFyT3n0wE

the end of "hummer" is the best thing bc ever did

― mellon collie and the infinite bradness (BradNelson), woensdag 9 september 2020 22:06 (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Thanks to this thread just listened to this for the first time in idk 10 years maybe. Mayonaise destroyed me - everything after it is fine though. Maybe going from the emo epic of Mayonaise to a ballad to a prog epic to a nursery rhyme to a lullaby could seem OTT but Doctor Casino otm, I wouldn't want to cut anything.

For me, this album is more about the proggy second half than the dirgey first half. But I was raised on Mellon Collie

I think it earns it's length *and* overstays its welcome. Sometimes I'll skip Today or Disarm or Sweet Sweet; other days I'll let it run. Part of the reason I love it, is that sense of it never being complete, full of wells and alleyways I forget are there. I think it's more down to when I discovered both albums, but I sort of twin it with the first Tindersticks album in that regard: 25-odd years of listening and not really any nearer the bottom of it.

in retrospect, it feels like a transitionary album: the first half being a meatier, less-washy take on Gish, the second half hinting at the stylistic alleyways they'd explore further on Mellon Collie.

I think I heard Mellon Collie before Siamese Twins and I wouldn't care to hear the former at all. Pumpkins is pretty much Corgan and Butch Vig doing Loveless outtakes and Silverfuck is the point where that runs out of puff.

I would only return to bits of Pisces Iscariot.

Do bands still release B-sides compilations? Or is that just not a thing any more? Thinking about the great B-sides comps of the nineties - Incesticide, Pisces Iscariot etc, this is a bit of shame

I think it earns it's length *and* overstays its welcome. Sometimes I'll skip Today or Disarm or Sweet Sweet; other days I'll let it run. Part of the reason I love it, is that sense of it never being complete, full of wells and alleyways I forget are there.

Totally OTM. It's also interesting how some ppl here are saying Loveless; others prog, emo, Queen, Rush, etc.

iirc "Silverfuck" is kind of a huge gaping hole. The band just isn't strong enough to carry off that kinda jam.

I agree with this (in the context of the album) - BUT, fwiw, I saw them play the song live in Nov. 1991, and it was v atmospheric and memorable. Guess they couldn't quite capture that on tape, for whatever reason.

(Can Butch Vig not do "dynamimcs"? I mean that's kind of his thing, right - "loud/quiet/loud"? Or is it more "loud, with brief stretches where everything but the bass drops out"?)

(sorry for the typo, but I kinda like it)

I've somehow managed never to hear this album in its entirety. Beyond the big singles, I was never that drawn to the Pumpkins, in no small part because of lil' Billy's vocal antics.

Totally OTM. It's also interesting how some ppl here are saying Loveless; others prog, emo, Queen, Rush, etc.

He's been very open about his love for, and influence from, MBV as well as Queen and Rush.

yup, merging the old and contemporary influences skillfully was BC's main innovation I think (along with about 6-7 years of remarkably prolific songwriting)

Yes, I was pointing out how it's a multifaceted album in that respect - it sounds like MBV to some ppl and Queen to others (and they're all "correct").

To bring up Pavement again (heh heh) - it's like how some ppl were sure that their early stuff sounded like the Swell Maps, others called them a Fall ripoff, others said Tall Dwarves, VU, Wire, SY, etc. They were all right! And yet Pavement also just sounded like Pavement.

revisitng this as I always happy to

Soma / Geek / Mayo might be the best hat trick of....any rock album, really

it's really amazing that even though a bunch of the outtakes are great they more or less nailed the song selection and sequence

the only change I might be tempted to suggest just for variety's sake would be to find a place for Iha's gorgeous "Blew Away"

the only sd-era b-side i'd want on the album is "whir," and god knows it doesn't fit and is perfect where it is on pisces iscariot

i love this discussion about sd's sequencing and length btw, i've listened to this album millions of times and i probably couldn't tell you what the tracklist is in order, every move it makes is kind of a surprise that also adds some new dynamic to the record

I would watch a movie-length documentary about butch and billy trying to select/sequence this record tbh

re: the dynamics discussion earlier, idk that there's a 90s major label rock song with a more extreme dynamic shift than "Soma"; the quiet parts are genuinely, hauntingly quiet. I remember always being at the ready to crank the volume nob down before the RIFF crashes in

album is also a feat of mixing cf. the layered guitar nonsense all over but for instance cf. the layered guitar nonsense at the end of "today"

amazing the drums don't sound like cardboard

also i realize billy corgan's voice is objectively horrible but that gentle high-whisper thing he often does floats over the guitar crunch really nicely and his voice is genuinely pleasing to my ear on parts of "hummer" "soma" and "mayo" and especially the verses of "rocket" (caveat i actually really love billy's studio singing up to a point and that point is machina/zwan; his live singing... mostly regrettable)

yes yes yes (re high whisper)

Yeah - I have no problem with his voice on these early records.

nice to see the enthusiasm for this record. as a teen i listened to it a lot but i never really burned for it. i just listened to the first half and beyond being surprised that i have it all mostly memorized, it really does nothing for me now - sort of nice to confirm that i'm just not into this band at all through going back to what everyone seems to agree is their best record. though weirdly i like reading all of these threads about them.

also i just wanted to say that the drums on "geek usa" are insane

jimmy chamberlin has secret octopus arms

Corgan has that kind of voice where you wonder how he ever decided he could/should be a singer. It's an objectively bad noise a lot of the time and he must have a stupid amount of self-confidence/delusion to force it upon the world (I realise lacking confidence isn't something of which you could accuse Corgan).

Ftr, I love his voice on Siamese Dream (and fell gradually out of love with it).

My guess is Corgan knows he’s a bad singer but still wants to record his own songs. Singing is hard!

I would probably enjoy them less if they had a “good” singer tbh

just imagine someone singing “my boredom has outshined the sun” straight

Do bands still release B-sides compilations? Or is that just not a thing any more? Thinking about the great B-sides comps of the nineties - Incesticide, Pisces Iscariot etc, this is a bit of shame

Seems like these comps happen over on BandCamp or as special Spotify "Streaming Only" releases. These days mostly stray stuff gets saved for Deluxe Editions of albums.

The Wilco box set from awhile back was an amazing unintentional epitaph for these kinds of collections: 4 discs of previously released material taken from B-Sides, soundtracks, tribute albums, radio samplers, benefit albums, and perhaps fittingly, one of the last songs was the flip to an RSD exclusive 45.

i've posted this before but i never have any idea what people have in mind when they think billy corgan's singing is bad on these records. like, what kind of voice would slide better into these layers of sound? or better express that frail and bedazzled child at the heart of the maelstrom? are we imagining michael bolton or what?

He sounds like Mick Jagger sometimes.

i admit i could be won over by The Smashing Pumpkins feat. Brad Delp

His voice is this weak, mewling thing and it fits perfectly - particularly on Siamese Dream. I'm happy with both of these things being true.

I don't have a working cassette deck to play the 1989 demo tape that comes in the Pisces Iscariot box, but of course I found it on YouTube... some real Cure influence happening back then, huh?

It's not that he isn't James LaBrie, it's that sometimes he sounds like he's recreating a scene from Deliverance.

His voice can be unpleasant as hell to listen to. I like SP but I don't begrudge someone who can't get past his voice.

I mean, Kurt Cobain wasn't exactly Mario Lanza and generally people like his vocals.

should have gotten the guy from Smash Mouth if he really wanted to sell to the masses

We've talked about it a lot but in the context of the music, I really like what he did pre-95. After that point, his voice got really unpleasant for me and was also foregrounded in the mix a lot more.

I mean, I probably would like Kurt Cobain or Chris Cornell better on "Tonight Tonight".

iirc the mcis vocal takes are all flood egging billy on and getting this deliberately raw and in your face and ott performance but i still think moments like "galapogos" are really lovely (and moments like "in the arms of sleep" are.... very rough)

adore has his best vocals but ofc they're not always cushioned by guitar noise and they are really mixed upfront

Kurt doing "Tonight Tonight" is extremely funny when I play it out in my brain

I mean, it was off the top of my head and Cornell might have been a better example but I don't really think his ballad voice would have been more ridiculous than what's actually on the record.

"And they all want you to change..." ;)

Kurt doing "Tonight, Tonight" would probably involve him screaming part of it an octave higher for no reason at one random point

Replace "an octave higher" with "out of tune" and that's what it sounds like to me rn.

I’m having a hard time picturing anybody else who could sing the lyrics of “tonight tonight” convincingly... maybe Neil diamond?

Prince maybe

I want to hear Julien Baker sing of crucifying the insincere, and she'd kill those long held notes.

Cracklin' Bullet (with butterfly wings)

Phil Collins could do "Tonight, Tonight" just to add to his Tonight collection

This might have been Neil Diamond-informed, actually: https://youtu.be/7iosnvKSBIo

what kind of voice would slide better into these layers of sound?

I get exactly the style of vocal he's aiming for and it one that would fit very well with the music, and most of his instincts regarding vocal phrasing and dynamics are very good ones - but he just doesn't have the skill to pull it off, and always somehow sounds like he's simultaneously making too much and not enough effort.

It's an odd voice. It's like an angry late teen and a scared 8 year old in the same body.

agreed, it's so perfect

corroded Gordon Gano

e only sd-era b-side i'd want on the album is "whir," and god knows it doesn't fit and is perfect where it is on pisces iscariot

"Whir" really is a gem.

That makes sense about Flood btw, Brad.

tried to post this yesterday but got shut out by my "you're wasting too much time on fun stuff" browser plugin ---- i do agree there's a point after which billy's voice stops being an asset. for me it's noticeable on some of Adore and a huge problem on the less "lush" tracks of Machina. as some of you have already touched on (and which i think we got into in detail on one of the ballot poll threads?), it's a combination of a changed singing style, a different way of mixing his vocals, and the changing sound of the band overall. for whatever reason it doesn't bother me on the MCIS tracks where this greater prominence is already happening, but maybe it's also that i've sort of phased out listening to the most abrasive tracks on that album anyway.

Corgan’s vox are awesome on “Frail & Bedazzled”—his voice is given that flat, dry treatment and slid into the middle of the mix (also great when everything else drops out, leaving just his vocal).

Helps that it’s a kick-a$$ song!

you could maybe cut idk one song from SD, if you had to, but more than that and it'd be diminished in grandeur no matter what the songs were.

This gets at the core at what makes this album so mercurial and distinctive, while at the same time imho only decent & not-great: it's an album with, like, eight beating hearts

The Core, The Eight-Beating Hearts Music...

been thinking about this and can’t help but believing J. Mascis would crush the vox dept

I'm a bit of a Butch Vig sceptic but I'm listening to Mayonaise on a different setup (ftr: laptop/my boys' flash new speaker) and goddamn I can really hear just how fucking awesome Jimmy Chamberlin's drums sound.

"Sliverfuck" 100% rules

Yup. And the insane/insanely longer live versions even more so.

I love how “Mogwai Fear Satan” is kinda like a drawn out “Silverfuck” jam. Better guitar/drum sounds on SD, tho.

File under 'things I did not expect'

https://fruit-bats.bandcamp.com/album/siamese-dream

Every so often, like now, I get into a mode where nothing else really sounds good to me except Siamese Dream, and I listen to it over & over. I can't really account for it -- I'm not much of a Pumpkins fan otherwise these days; I was lukewarm on this album for decades; I don't particularly vibe with the lyrics, or even many of the musical stylings; and I'm not generally into big rock albums that were Painstakingly Produced for Perfection and recorded over months (instead of weeks)... yet somehow it doesn't feel like that. It's like the band & Vig pulled off an impossible balance, making the album "just right" without it sounding too deliberate or overpolished... an impressively shiny & fearsome artifact that retains a human touch, real immediacy (and awesome drumming).

Somehow it's still "revealing itself" to me after all this time; or maybe it's just now clicking w/me because I've dropped aesthetic baggage of my own that was keeping me from appreciating it? (I dunno). Either way, it's quite a thing.

It's funny--I *was* a super-fan up through (but cracks showing at) 'MCIS'. And yet I feel similarly about 'Siamese Dream' (and the b-sides collected on 'Pisces Iscariot' + "Drown"). It has no relationship to any music I like from before or sfter it, and is conceptually a type of album I'd disdain. But for all of the "fan" baggage that fell away hard a quarter century ago, it still sinks its hooks in me if I happen to hear it.

It somehow manages to be the album equivalent of some big CGI-laden self-serious action extravaganza starring some in-real-life repelant schmuck that nevertheless actually is thrilling and engrossing. It's totally uncool, and almost cool for it (accidentally).

I think I agree with all this. I'm not really a Pumpkins fan either and basically own two albums (including MCIS) and a homemade "best of" CD-R covering 1991-2000. MCIS doesn't come close to sustaining it's enormous run time and I rapidly lose interest in the CD-R when it gets through the back half. Siamese Dream is really the only one I can enjoy all the way through.

Siamese Dream is really the only one I can enjoy all the way through.

For me it's Gish, but though consistent, it doesn't have any of their really great songs.
If brevity was all that was needed to make a great Pumpkins record, Shiny and Oh So Bright, Vol. 1 / LP: No Past. No Future. No Sun would be their masterpiece, but it's the worst.

This bump seems like a good excuse to play one of my favorites from this decade again.

The one I can enjoy all the way through is Adore - I've not entirely been able to work out why that is. It goes on an age (mind you so do the two around it) and has a lot of slow stuff which I don't quite think is them (or Billy at least) playing to their strengths but unlike their other 91-00 albums I'm generally unlikely to want to skip anything.

I don't think it's odd that Adore is well regarded by many Pumpkins fans. It's my favourite too, it has a serene vibe that they never had reached before or since.

I wouldn't identify as a Pumpkins fan, though. An Adore fan and a fan of certain songs from (or whole parts of) other albums, though.

A chin-stroking observation (after going back & forth a few times btw. the orig CD and the remaster): "Geek USA" is an even more interesting/complex song than "Silverfuck" - even though I think conventional wisdom would hold the opposite(?)

Silverfuck has always been my least favourite SD-track. Too long, and just not a good as most of the other rockers on the album. Shares some weaknesses with Fuck You from MC.

Only makes sense as a live “indulgence song” really

They played it when I saw them in Oct. ‘91(?), before I had even heard Gish… I didn’t know the song, of course, but I remember Billy singing “I feel no pain…” over the bassline.

One thing I’ll add is that when SD first came out, those are the two songs I least enjoyed… “Geek” sounded too tryhard-aggro and hookless to me, and “Silver” too much like, idk, Jane’s Addiction or something.

So I think learning to like/appreciate those songs was key, in terms of the whole album clicking with me… no more “second half, time to skip” syndrome.

happy 30th (and two days)

In a dream, we are connected

Pretty cool acoustic set. From the comments, sounds like Pumpkin Heads have long been familiar with this set as a boot, but I never heard it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzwOwzGtiZw

yeah that rules! it’s amazing how well those droney songs translate to the acoustic setting really. In the late 90s I got that set as part of a cd-r trade on alt.music.smashingpumpkins lol