How comes nobody ever mentions the MC5 round here?

Sounds like you are listening to critics than actually listening to the content. Why is it a masterpice?

I have never seen a review praising this album/the MC5, and retrospect reviews (like in Trouser Press) declare the band over-rated.

I think Kick Out the Jams has its moments (title track, "Rocket Reducer No. 62", the first half of "Starship"), but it's nothing great.

I have seen a couple but they are also held responsible for somehow (like fellow dud band the stooges)helping to create punk. But we should not pay attention since it is the mainstream rock press who say this garbage.

b.w*tson to thread!!

(Is BW a Stooges lover - somehow seems incompatible w/ FZ worship - or on crack like Julio?)

i think the mc5 are overrated, but i may possibly nevah have heard them, i just find the way ppl talk abt them boring

(the first nme i evah bought (1976) had wayne kramer's criminal mugshots on the cover)

but that's what julio is saying! except then he sees a chance to "break da mould" or something

Mark- I have only one Zappa album- Guitar- a 2 CD set of his solos. Good guitarist but he writes some poor arrangements for his fellow players. You can see why some people hate zappa's solo career. But I rather listen to his guitar playing than stooges/MC5.

Iggy gets good reviews from Ben and I couldn't care less. He has 'atitude' but the music sucks, and that's the biggest crime of all.

'i think the mc5 are overrated, but i may possibly nevah have heard them, i just find the way ppl talk abt them boring'

that's because they are boring. I could try and analyse Kick out of the jams and give a blow by blow account on this album but life is too short, and I have to catch up on my anthony braxton CDs.

Because, rather simply and bluntly put, it ROCKS! Have ye not ears? Listen to that riff!!!!

Don't be such a knee-jerk critic-o-phobe. It undermines your argument, and just makes you look like a contrarian. True, critics do slather needlessly all over certain artists, but in this particular case, I'd wager they're on to something.

HOWEVER: [[A => B] => C] = [-C => - [A => B]].

Hence ppl talk abt them boringly for othah reasons

Anyway, I like the MC5. Good rawk and roll and hysterical banter. I'd love to see someone prove that it is "bad" though. Hehehehe.

Alex- I love listening to the sound of the guitar. But I can't hear what is obvious to you and therefore I will say it's rubbish.

Mark- I did not imply that braxton is boring. What's all that other gibberish.

'Hence ppl talk abt them boringly for othah reasons'

which are?

No, it can't be proven by science. But it doesn't matter.

'Wow, someone sounds like a total prat. Doesn't bug the living fuck out of me though. Just makes me giggle.'

And I don't give a shit either. But all I've done is to disagree with another person's opinion.

"what are these reasons?" — i haf no idea: logic need not concern itself w.substantive detail (which is lucky for me)

Right, I forgot. Only black men from the 60s with saxophones can make "fiery, soulful" music. Melissa's not the only one you're bugging the fuck out of. And I like Anthony Braxton.

I actually don't like terms like fire music in relation to free jazz. It's a stupid term made up just to sell this music. Anthony braxton is not 'classfied' as fire. You've read my comment wrongly.

Partly I asked this question 'cos I was wondering why the current crop of 'exciting' white boy rock classicists - The Strokes, The Hives, Black Rebel Motorcyle Club etc - totally avoid ANY kind of overtly 'political' content, unlike the MC5.

And I think Wayne Kramer is one of the all-time great rock guitarists, as if such a thing still matters at this late stage in the game...

I know Braxton isn't typically categorized as "fire," I just mentioned him because he had been mentioned quite a few times already in the thread. And I was also trying to pre-empt any snide comments you might care to throw my way about my ignorance of the matter at hand. I don't want to start a fight or anything, I just feel like you're coming across kind of harshly; it's comments like the ones you've been making lately that give fans of experimental and avant- garde music a bad rep.

Are you quoting someone here, Clarke? 'Cause if you are, I'd like to see the context. Of course if you look hard enough you'll probably find some classicist free jazz musicians, just as you'll find classicists musicians/fans of any genre. But offhand I can't think of any free jazz purists-- and you'd think that if a lot of them were lurking, that Spring Heel Jack record from last year and the new Matt Shipp would've brought them out of the woodwork big time. These were, after all, very high profile releases by just about the most high profile players out there, and if you go over to, like, freejazz.org, you won't see much if any backlash. So I'm not sure how anyone could reasonably argue that "present-day free jazzers" are as classicist as Wynton.

Not completely sure what this adds to the discussion, 'cause I pretty much agree with you, but the sort of sneering Julio's doing, while obnoxious, is only tangentially related to the defensive purist sneering you're talking about in your last post.

mc5 are ok. some good rocking. as for punk coming out of mc5, or the residents or the stooges or beefheart or whatever. it's not a one- band thing anyway.

Well, they didn't pull it off with any sort of conviction.

'I think it's funny that Julio is getting all Free Jazz snob on us'

Not at all I love guitar bands like Dead C and Fuchitsusha for instance, electroacoustic music, free improv and a some indie bands like husker du and low and some punk as well. Don't misinterpret my comments on the MC5 to come up with that conclusion.

'The MC5's 'project' of combining James Brown, Sun Ra and The Who'

Well, I rather listen to james brown and sun ra. Yes, and john sinclair I think had the tapes for 'it is forbidden' (recently issued recording of a gig where the arkestra opened for James brown). They may have had the idea but from the records I don't actually think they did a good at putting together these influences to come up with something new or even something to listen to. The band had no 'dynamics'.

'the worst thing about zappa must be the guitar solos. it's a bunch wanking. zappa without the jokes couldn't be more boring to me. and that seems to be the kinda stuff you are into.'

See my comments up there. Other guitarists I like: Keiji haino, Masayuki takayanagi, Michael Morley, Keith levene, Blood Ulmer, derek bailey, keith rowe and yes, Farnk Zappa.

I always find it problematic when people try to be funny or when they (lyricists) try 'poetical' langague though I love beeefheart's lyrics.

'but the sort of sneering Julio's doing, while obnoxious' It's not obnoxious is it? I used the f-word in my first post but I just refuse to accept this guff abt MC5.

And i just want to add that terms like 'free' in free jazz don't describe the variety within 'it'. But lets not forget that we use such terms so that we can get some discussion going.

(BTW yes i like them tons...best alb. = "High Time"...everything i'd care to say has already been said here tho)

I accept that I might have implied that BUT as I've said before I like rock. I, in fact, love it. Goddamit, its the first i started listening to.

I've never said the MC5 was caveman rock. They tried to match free jazz WITH rock. Just like, say, the stooges and what I've said is that from listening to the records, they don't pull it off.

'Plus, your list of guitarists reads like a "The Insufferable Hipster's Top Ten Guitar Gods" thread on ILM.'

I'm not being a hipster: someone else started it because I said I liked Zappa's guitar playing (because mark asked me whether I liked zappa and if I was a hipster he wouldn't be on my list). So I cited other guitarists that I liked because that person said it was a load of wanking.

Again, I've listened to many more (Others I didn't mention: D. Boon, Bob mould, Stefan jaworzyn, rudolph grey, etc.). These are all really good guitarists that I like and if some people haven't heard them and they haven't listened to some of the records these people were in then they should give it a go.

I think people are being too harsh on Julio though. He's a poster with a limited range of tastes and his position on the MC5 is perfectly consistent. To someone who listens to the stuff he does the MC5 probably sound like Gorillaz do to lots of us, i.e. a misplaced, patronising and botched hybridisation.

Tom- my brother likes Goraillaz, so I got to know what they sound like. Unlucky for me.

The problem isn't really one of limited tastes, but of limited social skills.

tom - nah don't reckon. *everyone* i have *ever known* likes all the same shit he likes,& they all wuv the '5.

And I think I'm prob. guilty of overegging the MC5 jazz-rock pud. Most often they sound like The Who...

I've no problem with people being harsh to me. Because this is a discussion group and I'm providing some disagreement and I'm more than happy to defend my position. This thread would have been over and done with hadn't I done so.

'The problem isn't really one of limited tastes, but of limited social skills. '

You are the one calling me an 'insufferable wank' so you are the one who needs to work on your social skills but thanks I am highly amused.

By the way: I hate a lot of groups that have been give the 'wire' seal of approval as well. Including the MC5.

No, you are! mimes sticking out tongue

(i wasn't calling you a doorag julio, i wuz calling duane doorag a doorag)

I don't care abt insults. Some people will resort to such rubbish but I don't care.

http://www.rcleather.com/images/Doo%20Rag%20-%20041.jpg

http://www.mmurphy11.homestead.com/files/doorag.jpg

Holla

How come no-one ever mentions Blue Cheer round here?

Ah, but the mix of that on Babes in Arms is great.

I never saw the 5 but I did follow Sonic's Rendezvous Band when I lived in Ann Arbor. Fred Smith was an amazing musician, pushing the envelope of every performance like a jazz saxophonist on a roll. Hearing him play was saturating, like swimming in the ocean: you'd wake up the next day still feeling partially immersed, with your ears ringing and a funny taste in your mouth. Kick Out The Jams!

dave q told me I must listen to 'back in the USA' but you know I keep forgetting! maybe its one for the retirement home.

I'd just like to say that this is shite.

I don't like the 5 much, though. I prefer Grand Funk. Just bought the remasters of their first 3 albums the other week. They sound amazing.

I wish.

(get one copy of "space ritual" or "yeti", heh)

Those are two of my all time faves but not really the same kind of thing are they? Yeti's a great proggy Jefferson Airplane trip and Space Ritual is a transcendently minimal slab of sludge more in the spirit of the Stooges and Blue Cheer. Neither have the hyper ice-pick-in-your-ear goood olde time rock-and-rool teenage lust of the MC5. Plus talking bout the MC5 makes me want to type and spell like a real idiot.

Seriously though, in what way were they pretty ordinary? Please point me to some more songs that sound like Looking at You, Human Being Lawnmower, or Future/Now because I'd really love to hear them. I can't see how anyone would think they're overrated either since they barely seem to be rated at all. They get about 1/20th of the love and acclaim that the Stooges get (for example) and they're at least half as good.

I'd just like to say that this is shite.

Three years later, I'll stand by that claim!

if you're basing this solely on Kick Out The Jams, then yes.. but that doofus Sinclair was out of the mix after that for the most part (thank god), and so their two studio albums have markedly less posturing (if at all). and walter otm as far as comparisons to Amon Duul and Hawkwind. actually walter otm in general.

I've been elected to rock your asses 'til midnight
This is my term and I've shaved off my perm
but it's alright...

It is perfect. That is all.

Just reading this old Christgau piece on them and check this out:

"The warm-up was the Popcorn Blizzard (good), the Psychedelic Stooges (awful), and some blather about a religion called Zenta (weird)."

Whoa. Christgau saw the Popcorn Blizzard!

People always complain that the MC5 (and the original Raw Power mix) are not "heavy" enough. Sure heavy is great, sludge is cool and Blue Cheer, Sabbath, Hawkwind, Motorhead, etc. did it best. But it's a totally different thing. MC5 weren't trying to be "heavy" by some kind of lame drop-tuned, scooped mids, cookie monster measure of modern heaviness and I think people too often try to judge them by that yardstick.

The reason I mentioned Hawkwind and Amon Duul is that they were both the kind of similar political/underground thing, maybe the pink fairies were a better brit eqiv than hawkwind? (they probably wished! haha) I like them a lot better than the mc5 as well, though. "What a Bunch of Sweeties" is fucking awesome!

In this context I don't really much care about heaviness either, I mean I really like the early seventies heavy sound - sabbath, hawkwind etc, but what I don't dig about the mc5 is that they just don't rock me. The Stooges rocked, Black Sabbath rocked, the mc5 just kind of ... played fast. bleh.

And yeah, innit terrible that some people have the nerve to not like the same music you do!

I couldn't say the same thing about your comments?

Most of the MC5 defenders on this thread made it clear that this is not the album we're talking about.

Do you dig the pink fairies, Scott?

(x-post what I like abt the fairies = raga rock guitar solos, general feel of band, the singer, their vers of "walk don't run" is just about the best thing ever for me today what I like abt the stooges = they rocked) - a bunch of my friends are really into the mc5, but try as I might, I just can't connect w/the music.

i saw that pink faeries record recently and it looked pretty cool. what's it like?

each to his own, but...liking the Pink Fairies but not liking MC5 = liking Badfinger but not liking the Beatles.

+ the Groundhogs "Hoggin' the Stage" that's a fucking lost gem of fucking ROCK if ever there was one, eh? How could 3 people make such a RICH sound?

X-post I've heard them all FFS!

I think the people who thought of the fairies as a brit mc5 most were the fairies themselves, but, y'know, PAUL RUDOLPH, man!!

Yeah, I believe that as it's ths standard critical line on them. The fact that everyone judges them by their worst album is why I think the band is underrated (though I'll concede that one album is overrated). Your statement kind of implies that you haven't really listened to them in years and when you did you were listening with the baggage of "received wisdom." But I guess that's fair enough. MC5 might be one of those bands where if you don't hear it when you're a teenager you'll never hear it.

http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2008/08/the-john-sebast.html

I'm not a huge fan of the ROCK these days but I respectively submit that any fan of 70s guitar music needs to have "I Can Only Give You Everything" and "Looking At You" in their collection. While they may not have actually ever hit that transcendental moment, for me their best tunes always have them striving for it.

i don't know. maybe because i think YES to i can only give you everything (who wrote that?, by the way? i know it's like a nuggets staple you can hear van morrison &c doing), but not necessarily yes to looking at you. but i think their most interesting stuff isn't so rock. even if it's stupid-heavy, things like come together aren't really riff-rockin' classics. and then there's the totally not-rock stuff, revolutionary blues and skunk and stuff. i don't think their best stuff's abides to the form of heavy-ass rock-songs or anything.

I think I Can Only Give You Everything was originally written for the Troggs by one of those songwriting teams, but every garage band and his dog did a version of it.

Yeah, I've got "Trogglodynamite" which is where I know it from.

http://www.youtube.com/v/gyrcUlX7sPg

lyrics are kinda cheese but that electric autoharp sounds amazing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ot_-B-83Lb0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Cg0qJ-ieRk&feature=player_embedded#

I didn't know there was another rockin' electric autoharp player. I mean, aside from the guy from Cold Sun.

Also that Ted Taylor tune is fucking boss

Yeah, I was kind of surprised when I first heard it to hear how close the MC5 stayed to the original - obviously they rock it up a bit, but all the good stuff in their version is right there in the Ted Taylor tune.

The comparison between those two videos is like the perfect example why rock music sucks compared to R&B/soul. That MC5 dude can't sing at all, and the awesome groove is lost under guitar theatrics.

awww come on. there's room for awesome R&B grooves and bad singing/guitar theatrics rock music in the world.

One thing that flips my wig on that Ted Taylor 45 is the production is credited to Billy Sherrill, which is probably is the same guy eventually known for the country-politan sound of early 70s recordings by George Jones, Tammy Wynette and Charlie Rich.

The music biz used to be a way smaller place.

RIP Michael Davis:

Michael Davis, the bassist of influential late 1960s rock band MC5, has died of liver failure, his wife said Saturday. He was 68.

Davis died at Enloe Medical Center in Chico, Calif., on Friday afternoon after a month-long hospitalization for liver disease, said Angela Davis.

aw man

RIP

I stood frontrow before him during the '04 reunion show here. After the show I swiped his setlist only to have this cute girl ask me to see it and run away after I handed it over.

Fortunately I was able to get back to the stage to steal Marshall Crenshaw's copy.

This is deeply saddening. A good friend of mine played with him in Destroy All Monsters, had nothing but nice things to say about him.

oh shit.

i was facebook 'friends' with him, he always seemed very happy and content and full of life. what a fucking huge bummer

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/308419_258302137553306_100001205648611_799405_640381130_n.jpg

;_;

Looking over thread...

One thing that flips my wig on that Ted Taylor 45 is the production is credited to Billy Sherrill, which is probably is the same guy eventually known for the country-politan sound of early 70s recordings by George Jones, Tammy Wynette and Charlie Rich.

The music biz used to be a way smaller place.

Billy Sherrill also produced some of The Remains studio stuff. Also, I have a copy of Jerry Lee Lewis doing "Ramblin' Rose" near the end of his Sun tenure. Supposedly he recorded it first, but his version didn't hit the streets 'til '69-70.

oh man, so sad to hear. <3 you always.

http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/185460_209570895759764_100001205648611_626752_5849388_n.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwV5Sqlhlgc
their earliest footage unless I'm mistaken.
Shows them off as dandyish, I always thought they were a jeans & tshirt band until I heard that they had wives and girlfriends making a lot of clothes for them.

Sorry to hear about Mike Davis, hope he didn't suffer too much at the end. He was in hospital for a month. So have to assume he must have been.

Do wish somebody would release a compi of whatever complete footage with sound there is. Would love to see a True Testimonial released, it's a pretty good film.
So wonder if this death will trigger any new releases. A remastered set of lps would be good too. & will assume that Easy action will rerelease Purity, Accuracy the box set of rehearsal & live material.

Aww RIP Mike Davis.

Been listening to High Time like crazy lately, kind of an amazing record and I wish it hadn't taken me forever to get that.

My brother texted me this news this morning. RIP Mike D. MC2 now?

Just reading various stuff about him on the internet this evening and it sounds like he was a genuinely good dude all round.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_BuYbahkdFpY/S8_W3jdw2oI/AAAAAAAAADE/sU6lCY8I-Ys/s1600/-2.jpg

woooah, some people here seem to totally miss the point of the mc5. man, this is some fucking batshit freak the fuck out wild music. the energy and vibe they put out is phenomenal and they definitely set a high note for that kinda style. if you don't feel it, that's cool, but I'll never get enough of it.

Hello.

https://www.metrotimes.com/city-slang/archives/2017/06/13/brothers-and-sisters-wayne-kramer-uploads-rare-remastered-mc5-footage-to-youtube

oh wow

Holyyyyy fuck at this:

Wayne Kramer, the founding guitarist and leader of Detroit's proto-punk/hard rock band the MC5, will celebrate the landmark anniversary of its incendiary debut album Kick Out the Jams with the 35+ date "Kick Out the Jams: The 50th Anniversary Tour" and a memoir The Hard Stuff: Dope, Crime, the MC5, and My Life of Impossibilities (Da Capo Press). Kramer has put together his wish-list worthy band of fellow travelers, dubbed MC50 -- Brother Wayne on guitar along with guitarist Kim Thayil (Soundgarden), drummer Brendan Canty (Fugazi), bassist Dug Pinnick (King's X), and the afro'd secret weapon frontman, 6-foot-7-inch Marcus Durant (Zen Guerrilla).

Dug Pinnick on bass, cool. Only festival dates in Europe, though :/

seriously - Pinnick, Thaiyl and Canty could be one of the greatest bands ever assembled

lol at the cruel snapshot of an early ilm argument at the start of this thread

my braxton joke is good tho

We got tour dates:

9/5 - Ft. Lauderdale, FL @ Revolution Live
9/6 - St. Augustine, FL @ Backyard Stage at St. Augustine Amphitheatre
9/7 - Atlanta, GA @ Variety Playhouse
9/8 - Raleigh, NC @ Hopscotch Music Festival
9/9 - Nashville, TN @ Exit/In
9/11 - Washington, DC @ 9:30 Club
9/12 - New Haven, CT @ College Street Music Hall
9/13 - Boston, MA @ Paradise Rock Club
9/14 - Huntington, NY @ The Paramount
9/15 - Philadelphia, PA @ Union Transfer
9/17 - New York, NY @ Irving Plaza
9/18 - Montreal, QC @ Corona Theatre
9/19 - Toronto, ON @ Danforth Music Hall
9/21 - Pittsburgh, PA @ Mr. Smalls Theatre
9/22 - Grand Rapids, MI @ 20 Monroe Live
9/23 - Cleveland, OH @ House of Blues
9/25 - Milwaukee, WI @ Turner Hall Ballroom
9/26 - St. Louis, MO @ The Ready Room
9/28 - Austin, TX @ Mohawk
9/29 - Dallas, TX @ Granada Theater
10/1 - Phoenix, AZ @ The Marquee
10/2 - Las Vegas, NV @ Brooklyn Bowl
10/3 - San Diego, CA @ House of Blues
10/4 - San Francisco, CA @ The Regency Ballroom
10/5 - Los Angeles, CA @ John Anson Ford
10/15 - Portland, OR @ Roseland Theater
10/16 - Seattle, WA @ The Showbox
10/17 - Vancouver, BC @ Commodore Ballroom
10/19 - Salt Lake City, UT @ Metro Music Hall
10/20 - Denver, CO @ Gothic Theatre
10/23 - Minneapolis, MN @ Varsity Theater
10/24 - Chicago, IL @ Metro Chicago
10/25 - Cincinnati, OH @ Bogart's
10/26 - Detroit, MI @ St. Andrew's Hall
10/27 - Detroit, MI @ The Fillmore

And the site to check for more is https://mc50th.com/

house of blues?

sigh

The MC5’s Wayne Kramer Demonstrates the Correct & Official Way to Play “Kick Out the Jams” on the Guitar

I love this dude.

Just saw the DC gig and loved most of it. Kramer looks and sounds great. Canty on drums is a good choice. Didn’t know the Zen Guerillas guy on vocals, but he was decent enough. Cool to hear Kick our Jams, Looking at You, Call Me Animal, Shakin Street and more live.

https://www.thedailybeast.com/do-i-remember-the-68-dnc-riots-dude-i-played-them

I managed to get a UK original "Kick out the Jams" Lp off Discogs for £15, described as "Poor" condition, it was perfectly fine if a bit scratchy.

Listening to the albums again (on Spotify!) after being dazzled by Wayne Kramer and MC50 the other night. Forgetting which MC5 albums I have on vinyl.

Holy moly
https://youtu.be/AmnM-EBWZBM

KOTJ released 50 years ago today.

http://townsquare.media/site/295/files/2014/04/hudsons.jpg