Black Metal!

I love Emperor's latest album. i think people loved Nightside's instant accessibility. I much prefer ANTHEMS TO THE WELKIN AT DUSK.

But I love Ulver most of all.

Of course, I talk a high line, but when it's a great black metal group like Horna, I start rationalizing right and left about how they're more misanthropic than just anti-Semitic, blah blah blah. But I do think it's an important question -- certainly bigger than "are they bad for Norway" because it's an ethical question, not a practical one.

Who to hear: Emperor's great, don't listen to the purists who think everything after Nightside is dull (it isn't); Immortal's pretty pure, their new one's real good; I hear a band called Clandestine Blaze is totally great but I suspect they're nazis so I haven't bought it. I don't know how much longer I can stand it though. These guys are supposed to be really great. The new wave of post-black-metal bands (Zyklon, Blood Red Throne, Cadaver Inc., Suspiria) are pretty good -- the Cadaver Inc. record is really savage and the website got them denounced by the Norweigan parliament. Finally there's a song by In Aeternum called "When the Vultures Left" that is surely one of black metal's finest moments.

I am interested by Norwegian Black Metal without ever hearing any of it. I think the fact that a lot of the practitioners were/are seriously unpleasnt people - racists, homophobic, thuggishly violent - only adds to their mystique. Well, not the racism and homophobia, but the fact that they killed themselves, or each other, or complete strangers and burned down churches gives them an element of "We mean it, maaaan" that Marilyn Manson lacks. There is a sense that they are not just trend poseurs, but people actually living the dream. Unfortunately it's a rather rubbish dream.

emperor - 'in the nightside eclipse', 'anthems to the welkin at dusk'
ulver - 'nattens madrigal'
borknagar - 'the olden domain'
satyricon - 'nemesis divina'
acturus - 'aspera hiem symfonia'
dissection - 'storm of the light's bane' (crossover)
abigor - 'channeling the quintessence of satan'

even check out the first cradle of filth record - 'the principles of evil made fesh'

the recent sigh album is quite nice. i always liked arcturus's "sham mirrors" although it's been so long since i delved back into black metal. Anyone here enjoy some Vondur?

The last track on Immortal's "sons of northern darkness" album is just unbelievably great, one of the best pieces of rock music I have ever heard.

Thus ends my limited knowledge of black metal.

yes! but i feel like i've talked about ulver on 50 different ilm threads and i can't do it again. i love them in all their forms.

http://www.villagevoice.com/music/0319,seward,43848,22.html

( a little old, but what the hell. all their soundtrack stuff is really cool)

Only BM i like is Weakling, Wolves In The Throne Room, Lurker Of Chalice and Dead Raven Choir.

yeeaahhh, it's alright. blood inside was more a prog album on an electronic base. the silencing the singing (think that's the title) collection is pretty cool - reminds me of the last couple of labradford albums and some of the better ambient stuff on mille plateaux. but none of it beats their black metal stuff IMO.

Only BM i like is Weakling, Wolves In The Throne Room, Lurker Of Chalice and Dead Raven Choir.

the "non-black metal black metal" stuff? yeah, they're all pretty good. you should start moving laterally, dude, check out some later burzum, hate forest/drudkh, manes, maybe satyricon's rebel extravaganza.

haha, on the MONEY. necrofrost bloodfrost = the rats "the rats revenge part 1 and 2".

unfortunately the political views of drudkh and Burzum means I just could never listen to their music. Don't know the other bands. I think the reason i can stomach those other bands is that the vocals arent the usual grunting stuff. It's almost Alex Newport like. To my ears anyway. The music is often fine not as technical as DM (which is probably why i dont even like DM music nevermind vocals)

Any BM bands that don't have neo nazi/Right wing etc political views and that the vocals are similar to the bands I mentioned that I like I may just check out though! So recommend away.

why?

I completely fail to grasp that. It's not like it's evident in their work much if at all, even Burzum. I mean, don't support beating your wife and treating women like shit, but I ain't selling my James Brown records anytime soon. Or GG Allin. Or is there something patently offensive about Ukrainian history or Norwegian forests?

AND.. the string quartet version thingy of Nattens Madrigal is still ON!

Who here likes Ildjarn? I like Ildjarn. Thanks.

I just heard some Ildjarn at a party the other night. It was good.

The best black/death record I never hear anyone talk about is the first Necrophobic album The Nocturnal Silence. So classic and unheard in the US for some reason.

either old age or wisdom (depending on how you feel about the original position) got to me and now I buy whatever I want to listen to whether its politics are odious or not. guess it's time to catch up on grand belial's key.

I don't really know which bands have right-wing politics and which don't TBH, apart from obviously Burzum. I know Varg was working with Darkthrone on some of their stuff, which I guess means they're probably dodgy and I've bought albums by them. It doesn't really affect whether I like the music but I would think twice about paying money directly to bands if I knew they were nazis/racists/etc. I usually buy black metal stuff second hand anyway which kind of circumvents that issue!

Some ILMers were into Bone Awl last year - the Ildjarn I was listening to yesterday is in that kind of vein - comp of early 90s EPs/demos etc called Det Frysende Nordariket, really good sloppy lo-fi stuff.

I just started listening to Black Metal and I'm a little concerned about which bands are nazis/far-right/whatever. Can someone elaborate a little about this or link me to articles that discuss this issue. As a non-white person it makes me quite uncomfortable if a band who's music I'm loving are fuckig nazis. What about bands like Darkthrone, Gorgoroth and Mayhem?

The Wikipedia entry on National Socialist Black Metal is a good start. Otherwise I'd imagine you'd have to look up the histories of individual bands to see where their ideology lies. But it seems to me (not knowing too much about the scene/genre beyond the surface) that black metal ideology is more about nihilism and/or anti-humanity; there's really no room for racism or white supremacy when you want all humans eradicated equally.

Darkthone is pretty safe iirc fwiw

Well there is all that controversy about Darkthrone using the word 'Aryan' on the back of one of their earliest albums -- but Nachtmystium putting out a record on a white power label (no matter how much they deny Nazi affiliations/sympathies today) seems much more suspect to me.

Varg has a load of lyrical credits on Transilvanian Hunger (plus that whole Aryan Black Metal thing) which makes Darkthrone a bit dodgy.

Trouble is they totally rule.

And I mean suspect insofar as that being on a white power label is somehow excusable if your band is 'apolitical' or whatever -- it's a philosophical issue, yes, but it's also one of intellectual dishonesty.

if you're that worried about dodgy politics it's probably best to avoid black metal altogether

all the classic stuff's better but i suppose there's the whole depressive american misanthropic bm scene - leviathan, xasthur et al., who if racist really don't make a point about (far as i know). there's also velvet cacoon who i'm pretty sure don't have anything to do w/ racist ideology, tho their albums are a little boring sometimes.

what about the french scene? blut aus nord? spektr are pretty amazing. deathspell omega?

ha, or the aussie scene? striborg just hates everybody

oh yea, and here's another thread on the subject: Could someone please recommend me some black metal that is non-racist, non-sexist, and that doesn't go too far past the line of good taste?

i wouldn't really worry about it if you just started listening; the bands you're going to encounter aren't going to be very controversial w/r/t this stuff. most of the big american bm bands are "safe" as far as i know, mayhem (at least the current incarnation) is, seems like from what i know gaahl's gorgoroth probably is too.

if bands that may have said something "controversial" once 15 years ago are going to bother you, then yeah stay away. but if you're cool chalking that up to being a dumbass and not an actual ideology then you're a lot better off imo

what about the french scene? blut aus nord? spektr are pretty amazing. deathspell omega?

― mark cl, vrijdag 10 april 2009 0:38 (7 hours ago) Bookmark

I'm almost positive you can't go wrong with DsO in this matter, racism is something that band doesn't deal with at all. I personally find DsO one of the most interesting bm bands seen from an intellectual point of view. They take elements out of all religions and blend it into something else. Well maybe it's not something else, but it sounds/reads like nothing I've seen before. I'd recommend this interview. It's a very interesting, almost elegant, conversation in my opinion. DsO refuses any simplicity or being categorised into something they're not.

i used to dig a band called bloodthorn from france. mind you that was about 10 years ago.

shit, bloodthorn are norwegian. i sure got that wrong.

antaeus is some interesting french black metal, i found

we should try and compile a list of some of the greatest black metal tracks. listening to certain black metal albums in their entirety tend to leave me a bit drained these days, whereas standout individual tracks can still blow me away/take me to that other place etc.

some winners:

satytricon - mother north
emperor - with strength i burn
burzum - det som en gang var
borknagar - the dawn of the end
enslaved - vetranott
summoning - the glory disappears

Start with Weakling and Wolves In The Throne Room. That's safe stuff and also many non-bm peoples bands its ok to like.

Deathspell Omega are required listening for anyone with an interest in heavy music

also Darkspace (crazy and pretty good if long-winded Swiss sci-fi BM group) have no sort of agenda beyond "shit the universe is terrifying"

also Xasthur is some sort of genius, plz lay hold

When you're ok with all that, listen to every Ulver album, in chronological order, in one sitting :D

Also check out the Alcest EP Le Secret. (the album is shoegaze metal but the ep is BM)

That's an awesome interview with DsO btw! And take it from me: they're not just intellectual gnostics, they're *insanely good* musicians who have a wonderful approach to composition.

maybe this will be the year i'll get into black metal. quite like what xasthur ive heard. like a big dirty whirlwind of sound. its like heroin metal. but i really like the punky end of things like Vordr and Bone Awl. any suggestions?

Can't help you out on punk influenced BM, though Darkthrone might be a good start.

If you're liking Xasthur, you should D/L the early Mutiilation albums, a definite influence and raw as hell.

I think Ildjarn invented that Vordr/Bone Awl style

theres a hell of a lot of this stuff on youtube. Ildjarn seem to be like raw bone awl type stuff to the track below which is like super sleek wind tunnel metal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVa9H763T60

Dude looks like Billy Corgan!

The negative reviews on metal-archives are hilarious, and the sheer size of his discography is intimidating, but Zarach Baal Tharagh is as punk as fuck, and his myspace is as good as any place to start:

http://www.myspace.com/zarachbaaltharagh

Ooh, good revive. I've never heard Vordr or Ildjarn before. Stuff is pretty badass.

All my black-metal buddies are freaking out about Marblebog from Hungary right now. And I can't say I blame them.

myspace.com/marblebog

Sorry for not making that a live link but I know you can make it work.

Thanks for the recommendations - gonna check out Zarach Baal Tharagh & Marblebog now!

btw you guys would probably like Ganzmord - Monolithic In Darkness

Ganzmord have a 7" release on the AT WAR WITH FALSE NOISE label, out of Glasgow, who also have an album by Zarach Baal Tharagh and many others.

ganzmord got really mad at me once. what a twit. i dared to give him a great review! still like his stuff though.

he also got mad that the people who put out his record - blackmetal.com - would dare to try and SELL his record. You know, promote it. dude, your label is a STORE! hahaha, i got a kick out of that.

he hates Decibel too.

i would hate decibel too if i were him. i'd hate everything. i mean, duh, that's the point.

:D

http://www.myspace.com/liturgynybm

Liturgy score major BM points for namechecking Gerard Grisey, surely the most Tr0o and kVlt figure in the world modern composition: Compose a complex suite about death involving ancient Babylonian texts, then drop dead unexpectedly - beat that!

Listening to those Liturgy on the myspace site again last night. Damn good stuff, really should acquire the CD. Thanks for the tip, Whiney.

Liturgy is great. 20 Buck Spin is putting out the new album this year. Great guys. Great tunes. Definitely pushes some boundaries that need to be pushed.

I would like to talk about Darkspace III.

I am listening to it for the first time right now and it is monumental. Surely one of the best metal albums of recent years.

I revived a stupid thurston bore thread to talk abt it, but I've been really liking the 2nd Malkuth LP! NY black metal that is very good imo.

cheers for the heads-up, will check out

Totally agree about Darkspace III. I is almost on the same level, II is more ambient, but still essential. They play occasional festival dates, and I'd love to see them live. Stage shots show them backlit and rigged out something like the cenobites from Hellraiser. I'm sure the sound is like falling into a black hole.

Check out mainman Tobias Mockl's long standing solo project Paysage D'Hiver - similar epic feel, but super raw and experimental. Genius!

Wow.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er3lNIawdEE

(HD sounds better, btw. Click the video & click HD when you get there)

AWESOME! They make me think of Phillipe Druillet's acid-head space opera comics from Metal Hurlant. Hadn't clicked that the bass player is a woman. (Well, a female alien, anyway.)

Here's a long, cold blast of Paysage D'Hiver:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1W8h3mLvNo

loving the darkspace video - they should look ridiculous but instead are totally compelling!

The video sound is OK, but doesn't do the records justice - they're IMMENSE!

^ OTM

Just got hold of Liturgy's "Renihilation". Five tracks in, and I'm totally floored.

lots of people wont listen to them due to their description of "indie black metal"

What were they thinking? The music is the real deal, tho.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ywPnWF-eDU

i like the album

Yeah, I dig on Liturgy. Main dude (or at least the one who brings the record to the shop) is super nice & mellow.

I have to concur with all above. Liturgy is great and Hunter is a total sweetheart. Happy to say I had a hand in helping get him his latest label deal :)

hey dudes, has there been a striborg album consisting entirely of his creepy ambient keyboard pieces yet?

I don't think so, but who can keep up? There's an ambient number on the DVD set to what looks like pure video feedback. I felt like my brain was melting and/or I was watching some sort of cult induction video.

was waiting for the first tr00 metal dude to show up

whoops, wrong thread

Waht

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBnrEZEzkMI

Oh this is quite lame but I made a bear for the first time at the build a bear factory and decided to make it a black metal panda with long black hair, a guitar and a 10 second clip of Gaahlskagg I am sin when you press its paw :D they wouldn't let me put a black heart inside it though :(

*I am so childish*

Listening to rough mixes of the new Ludicra right now. Fucking amazing.

That Moonsorrow two-track album (Chapter V) just came on by mistake and FLOORED me

we are talking brilliance here, fellas!

i don't know if this counts as poser/hipster black metal shit, but Dominick Fernow's (of Prurient fame) band Ash Pool is fucking BAD ASS. if you dig the noisy, punky stuff, seriously get on this. Crucifixion Fantasy is a good intro song. totally fucking infatuated.

Very much enjoying the unhinged vocal stylings of Ashdautas at the moment. Loose, free, chaotic 'necro' BM, very much in the LLN tradition. Have attracted incredulous and horrified reviews, alleging parodic intent - not what I'm hearing at all, but, perversely, probably a good sign. Curious about the other bands in the Black Twilight Circle, to which they seem to be affiliated.

My kid got me into black metal over a decade ago. ('Just turn it down!!')
all the emperor stuff is wortwhile. I heard their reunion gigs in L.a. and liked them as well as the '99 gig in SF at Maritime.
The strongest current artist in the field certainly looks to be Wrest. The LVTHN demos alone are a career and the three studio albums are even better. Lurker Of Chalice, I withold judgement on, until I hear the follow-up.

Mayhem have released ' Wolf's Lair Abyss' 'Grand Declaration of War' and 'Ordo ad Chao'
all quite distinctive and each unique.

DHG have steadily developed. 'Supervillain Outcast' is a wonderful and subtle concept album.

Darken in Graveland continues to hone his instrumental skills, but has lost a bit of fire, not to mention tune-smithing ability. I would not count him out. As to his politics( just to pick one arist, in synecdoche): whoever cares? He hates Americans. He hates jews. He hates whatever we call the blackfellows these days. So? He has a right to his opinions and does not force them upon others. We have argued, via the net, on some of this, but his ( and my) position is that the music is a separate matter.

2009 has been an excellent year fo established black Meal acts.
Samael 'Above'
Beherit 'Engram'
Dark Funeral 'Angelus Euxuro Pro Eternus'
Naxul 'Iconoclast'
Immortal 'All Fhall Fall'
Gorgoroth 'Quantos...'
Belphegor 'Walpurgis Rites'
Nargaroth 'Jahreszeiten' ( my #1)
...and a whole lot more.
New Blood: Liturgy, Wodensthrone, Sjenovik
Best Live Show this year was Mayhem/Cattle Decapitation/Withered in House Of Blues on Sunset; 2nd best was the same bill in New Mexico earlier.

Deary, deary me: no preview function here, eh? Sorry about the typos. Feel free to
laugh.

I saw Marduk/Nachmystium/Merrimack/Black Anvil and uh Mantic Ritual (short for Romantic Ritual? I hope so!) this weekend. Sound was atrocious (esp. during Marduk resulting in much hilarity with the singer yelling at the roady, the sound-guy, random people in the audience--he also delivered a very nice takedown of a exuberant and very drunk fan who thought getting close enough to hug him was a good idea.)

Speaking of (at 1:16):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuqboGYK9dA

laughed so hard at marduk bodyslam

Priceless. Troo black metal is far too kvlt for friendly displays of camaraderie, I guess.

omg J0hn you realise you actually have to perform a vicious beatdown on yr next tour right

also i posted it elsewhere but it also belongs here: The thread for pasting moronic YouTube comments

that conversation concludes thus

Footballboy50 (3 months ago) Show Hide
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yea.. cuz killing people is productive, in fact the act of violence is a far lower level of thought. only the wise will thrive

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you mistake cleverness for wisdom. fool. go read some books.

So, no thoughts on Ashdautas then? It's interesting that they are actually a band, and a gigging entity at that - it sounds like classic outsider BM solo basement lunacy.

I thought this revive was gonna be about this
http://blackmetaltheory.blogspot.com/

http://www.publicassemblynyc.com/events/view/1148

haha... what the fuck. i guess black metal's over.

Shit, that looks great, I'd go!

Yeah, I'd go, it looks interesting.

The guys over at DFFD were so pissed off with hipsters ruining BM that they turned the thread into a 10 page discussion of NWA and Public Enemy instead. ILX woulda been proud.

I think this means us death metal partisans can claim victory now

til next year

Remind me again who got their arses kicked in the DM vs BM poll?

WINNING METAL ISN'T A FUCKIN NUMBERS GAME, SOUKESIAN

Scott or j0hn :) will be here in a min to say ilx is full of hipsters so of course BM won the poll

that's kind of exactly the point - BM won the poll = BM is trendy, of course it did

:)

iirc most of the DM votes came from US ilxors while BM came from euros.

I aim to please xpost

can re-poll after the wire runs some article about slept-on death metal, it'll get loads of votes then

i know DM was the most commercially successful form of extreme metal in the states in the early 90s, it's basically the bread and butter metal for a lot of people after the thrash generation got old ;), but was it ever actually hip? I dont mean hip as in elite circles of demo tape traders in the late 80s but hip as in actual hipsters like the NY hipster types who are into BM?

actually i might start a separate thread on this.

http://www.trackosaurusrex.com/pblog/images/FixeII2.jpg

When did Doom Metal/Black Metal and the like become "hip" and why?

i know DM was the most commercially successful form of extreme metal in the states in the early 90s, it's basically the bread and butter metal for a lot of people after the thrash generation got old ;), but was it ever actually hip? I dont mean hip as in elite circles of demo tape traders in the late 80s but hip as in actual hipsters like the NY hipster types who are into BM?

well, famously, Peel was into grind. thurston moore and some others IIRC were namechecking DM a little, I think moore's been pretty interested in "extreme" metal from pretty early on. and some of these death metal guitarists are total tone merchants, it's one of the reasons I'm a death metal partisan - there's plenty of black metal guitarists who get amazing tone of course but there's also the sort of autopilot Boss distortion into Boss delay black metal sound that just bores me to tears - and there've always been some from-hipper-circles ppl goin "seven churches is fucking amazing." but anyway yeah - I mean, getting "hip" used to take a lot more digging, but within some hip circles I think there were plenty of artsy dudes seeking out Eaten Back to Life and Mental Funeral and sarcofago or even krisiun and so on.

can re-poll after the wire runs some article about slept-on death metal, it'll get loads of votes then

Fine, I'll pitch this article for the eighth time. Dammit.

ha lol you know I will howl like a hurt dog if people ever actually start acknowledging that 1st & 2nd wave death metal was some of the most interesting music ever made, gotta have my stuff to complain about y'know

Well, FWIW I'm all about the blackness now, but I saw Napalm Death and Carcass on the early tours, and have no problem at all in acknowledging that those were some of the wildest gigs I've ever seen.

Every time someone says DM in one of these threads, I read it as Depeche Mode :-/

I will howl like a hurt dog if people ever actually start acknowledging that 1st & 2nd wave death metal was some of the most interesting music ever made

I sneak it in where I can, like when I got Mike Patton to admit to being influenced by John Tardy.

I sometimes misinterpret it as Dead Milkmen. xp

any love for these dudes?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkOVIbI1-xQ

A friend of mine just got Peter Beste's 'True Norwegian Black Metal ' as a Christmas gift which I thought quite droll.

i never really got into judas iscariot. dude's okay. i don't know, i kinda feel like he and krieg were american black metal guys wandering in the wilderness, trying to find an original/interesting style and not really succeeding. but that didn't stop them from putting out a shit-ton of records.

listening to the Cryfemal album from last year, it's kinda cool but I wish they'd mixed the drum machine down a notch, the guitars should be louder, they get a bit drowned out.

i'm going to try to like black metal starting right now.

i downloaded "transilvanian hunger" by darkthrone on a recommendation. apparently this is considered a classik of the genre?

first song - title track

the beat is really weird and stiff...oompa oompa oompa oompa oompa, kinda sounds like a slowed down snare roll...up and down up and down up and down

the guitars are being played really fast in a way that seems really slow, like almost shoegazey or something...

you know? in a weird way the drums almost remind me of johnny cash or skiffle or something that kinda double time snare "train beat", but like more martial marching band.

the production is really midrange and tinny...kinda reminds me of husker du

the chord changes seem really goth

from your descriptions, it sounds like you are listening to an early 90s BM record.

yup, you are definitely listening to an early darkthrone record

now:
Graven Takeheimens Saler

definitely the weirdest song...the chord changes seem a bit "off" in a pleasing way

ha! now there's a fast picked guitar line that sorta reminds me of Dick Dale

the singer sounds like the head Orc from lord of the rings

are these guys one of the racist ones? how could you tell anyway? i guess you'd have to read about them cuz the vox are unintelligible, idk even know what language they are in i guess...though i've heard the word "satan" a couple times

iirc there is like racist artwork on the one you are listening to but i don't believe they are particularly racist, especially when they got older

they executed a few dick moves a long time ago, around the time of this album in fact iirc, but in short, no they're not

this is incredibly monochromatic music...

it's weird, sometimes his repetitive double time oompa oompa marching band beat goes to triple time oompa oompa and it almost sounds like total chaos

These are not drums, it's actually a garden sprinkler.

burzum, who were and are* super racist sound very much the same. tin-can recording, simple bang-bang-bang rhythms, super fast guitar chording that dissolves into a woozy blur, gothy progressions, surf-style fast picking solos. love the sound, but it is monochromatic, but it quickly becomes dull as dirt in the wrong hands. you should listen to emperor's anthems to the welkin at dusk after this! you know, for some variety.

* why do i always talk about bands - singular collective entities, grammatically speaking - as though though they were "he and she" type plural constructs, even when there is only one person in the band?

These are not drums, it's actually a garden sprinkler.

― Siegbran, Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:54 PM (50 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

haha yeah that's kinda it!

So, title track riff out of your head yet?

actually Skald Av Satans Sol is the one that stuck with me more

i don't know what to think of black metal.

i guess i thought it would be different than what it is...idk really what i expected tho.

i basically was a metal kid up thru death metal, then i remember dudes getting all into morbid angel and death and i got off the train...classic era thrash was the last thing i dug really....

man the first time I heard Death I practically leapt for joy

nothing to do with this thread, but i just watched that Until the Light Takes Us doc and it is kinda great to see that Fenriz has turned into a decent grown up dude, but it is always a bummer to be reminded that Hellhammer might be a fucking killer drummer but is still pretty much an unrepentent homophbic douche.

i was washing dishes with j0hnath@n mu11@11y in the kitchen of Big Bob's Our Place when he played Death and Morbid Angels cassettes....i remember thinking i can't hang with this

there's something (actually in this darkthrone album) about the tempos and rhythms, once it gets too fast it sorta ceases to be heavy.

like actually darkthrone sounds like the opposite of heavy to me...it's definitely aggressive and harsh but not heavy.

it's kinda the same w/any hardcore bands...like i only like hardcore bands i was too young to really see (w/a couple exceptions)...

darkthrone kinda reminds me of like goth for ppl who like 90s hardcore or something.

also a certain monochromatic gray quality that reminds me of why i never really hung with much 90s industrial (like true industrial not NIN)

***I want to stress i have heard EXACTLY ONE black metal album and am still keeping an open mind towards the genre, so don't jump down my throat and be all like DUDE LISTEN TO FJELVURKSTASUM's epic symphonic eurofolk freejazz black metal opus "Enraptured In The Sorrowful Dungeon"***

well shit if you have heard fjelvurkstasum yet how can we even have this conversation really

I prefer their early material tbh

nah the demos were even better

listen to the new Nachtmystium! *runs*-*hides*

I think the monochromatism (monochromaticness?) that's been mentioned is what stops me liking true BM. I mostly find it very rhythmically uninteresting as well. Though I'm pretty fascinated by it sociologically. Until the Light Takes Us was a good watch.

I'm willing to have my eyes opened and have been getting into a couple of bands who draw from the genre but inject it with a bit of groove and move outside its confines quite freely, like Agalloch and Cobalt. I find the screechy vocals somehow more soulful and human than Death Metal grunts.

one thing that m@tt mentioned that is def true is that BM is kinda opposed to heaviness in a lot of ways, production, the speedy riffless guitar parts, etc. its def got a predisposition to harshness/rawness instead of weight, which i dig but i like lots of skronky weirdo music so i probably would.

Definitely like my metal with a big fat bottom attached myself.

don't shoot me, it had to be posted:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8yA2iLE15g

one thing that m@tt mentioned that is def true is that BM is kinda opposed to heaviness in a lot of ways, production, the speedy riffless guitar parts, etc. its def got a predisposition to harshness/rawness instead of weight, which i dig but i like lots of skronky weirdo music so i probably would.

― O_o-O_0-o_O (jjjusten), Wednesday, November 17, 2010 2:31 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah but honestly i guess i don't hear much "skronk" which i sorta associate with either atonal or "out" sounding tonality stuff and/or really knotty weird rhythms...this stuff (at least darkthrone on the album i heard) is so regimented rhythmically that it doesn't feel particularly weird to me....structurally it's almost like the ramones to me, like every song pretty much mines the same formula to better or worse results....in terms of the drumming, it's so constantly one beat that even the odd fill seems like a big deal....

I was listening to A Blaze in the Northern Sky last night and found myself thinking of the Cramps ... Ramones is a better comparison. I was expecting murky sound like Transilvanian Hunger but this one was a lot less fatiguing to hear and more fun.

yeah my skronk vibe is more sorta the unfriendly listening sorta thing - that feeling that your pleasure is of little concern to the peeps doing it, idk, the same sorta thing i always got from like the flying luttenbachers i guess, or lotsa pigfuck stuff. part of it is also that i always think of big black guitar tone wrt oldskool black metal.

i def enjoy the later BM more as a rule, although the bleakness minimizes a bit later on. the peste noire album from last year (not to slip into the aforementioned "but but listen to this tho") is a good example of this, totes abrasive and nasty and legit BM at the core, but with lots of interesting things going on around it. their politics are kinda ?? depending on what you read (french nationalism so kinda weird but maybe/maybe not cryptoracist? idk), but that just makes finding it illegally AOK

ok i gotcha, yeah actually i can dig the big black, the kinda sheet metal guitar treble hell thing albini used to do

haha and i don't mind recommendations at all! i just wanted to let folks know that i don't know wtf i'm talking about and my observations are literally based on one album

french nationalism? hmmm...with all the shit going on in france right now that seems kinda suspect...but hell i guess in a genre where comments like this:

iirc there is like racist artwork on the one you are listening to but i don't believe they are particularly racist, especially when they got older

― call all destroyer, Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:38 PM (2 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

are "normal", like "well they ONLY had racist artwork so they are totally not one of the worst cases" it seems like i guess ya just have to deal with all the bullshit huh?

i guess it helps that i have no fucking idea what any of the lyrics are saying

it's pretty easy to avoid bands that are definitely espousing racist/fascist/nsbm ideas, but hard to avoid bands that flirt with those ideas.

i didn't intend for my comment to minimize racist artwork btw

don't play this for your dog

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V7Otl1JRCg&feature=related

is that the band with the parrot singer?

cad:

i didn't think you were minimizing it, just thought it was kinda a telling comment abt the genre

I don't consider myself any kind of expert in the genre but have generally been of the belief that the racist and anti-Semitic crap Darkthrone tossed around in the earlyish 90s was more about them being obnoxious showboaty assholes, rather than anything they seriously believed

how much of a green light that is to dive in, or not, is really up to the individual

well, it's too late, i already listened to darkthrone and now i am a skinhead :(

lol!

ok cool i didn't think you did just wanted to be sure.

in one sense the easiest way to avoid "that stuff" is to get away from the first wave altogether--it can be easier to tell with many of the later bands.

saw liturgy last night. they were good and loud, but not quite as furious as when i saw them earlier this year. a little less shrieking, a little more extended instrumental sections.

don't you mean second wave?
xp

yes i do

you just saved yourself from the wrath of roxy! You gotta get your BM waves right!

bm waves = peristalsis

btw what wave is BM currently on now?
xp

roguewave

wait 2nd wave? so darkthrone is like the specials of black metal? who's the king tubby?

venom hellhammer bathory

ah gotcha

sure do wish this was the current BM wave. no such luck, tho:

http://www.dustygroove.com/images/products/c/collin_boot_ultrawave_101b.jpg

There's so many kinds of BM, it's impossible too like or hate all of it. Listen to as many different bands as possible before you can say anything about the genre. Some of my favourites off the top of my head: early Satyricon, Immortal, Enslaved, Windir, Solefald, Burzum, Bathory, Shining, Watain, Darkspace, Rotting Christ, Drudkh, Ulver, Von, Mystigo Varggoth Arkestra, etc etc etc. Good luck \m/

But tonight I've been listening to Bruce Springsteen, Plastikman and the Jesus and Mary Chain, lol

Fenriz is a Plastikman stan

I'm not surprised, the minimalism and repetition are quite alike, even if the instruments aren't.

new DsO is amazing. is this being discussed elsewhere?

Who are DsO?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDnwd9GLhe0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TUlsy6o0To

i would just tell people who don't listen to a lot of metal but are curious about black metal to just listen to darkspace and be done with it. cuz they rule and are appealing in many different ways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6sp8Q-zEX5E&feature=related

and they are totally addictive.

and lustre. i would tell them to listen to lustre. cuz its black metal but also just ambient minimalism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UT7VdVAYhbg

why this guy isn't a poster child for shoegaze nation on ilm is beyond me. maybe he's too under the radar. so get on it slowdive dudes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzQSR2QqEUM&feature=related

speaking of which, i LOVE the newest Theologian album on Crucial Blast. so cool. title is: The Further I Get From Your Star, The Less Light I Feel On My Face. if you like ambient dark stuff it will really hit the spot.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_95msu-VwXUk/TNszU2m_5fI/AAAAAAAAA20/1vfBnRV7Fjc/s1600/theologianposter.jpg

really digging those starlit and lustre clips, scott.

yeah, starlit is just the lustre dude again. he's got lots of project names for his one-man stuff. i think his new stuff is great.

ah, didn't realize. definitely going to dig in further - thanks!

there's something (actually in this darkthrone album) about the tempos and rhythms, once it gets too fast it sorta ceases to be heavy.

like actually darkthrone sounds like the opposite of heavy to me...it's definitely aggressive and harsh but not heavy.

it's kinda the same w/any hardcore bands...like i only like hardcore bands i was too young to really see (w/a couple exceptions)...

darkthrone kinda reminds me of like goth for ppl who like 90s hardcore or something.

also a certain monochromatic gray quality that reminds me of why i never really hung with much 90s industrial (like true industrial not NIN)

Most of this is kinda why I love Darkthrone tbh

going to see Liturgy tonight . . . stoked!

scott is it just me or are you getting blunted and listening to black metal tonite

3 weeks time I'm going to see Mayhem, first time. Anaal Nathrakh supporting - I only really love The Codex Necro, their more recent stuff has too much, er melodic singing is the only way I can describe it, which sounds kind of stupid but never mind. But they were great live last time I saw them.

dude, we bought a thousand mint classical records last night! i'm getting blunted and listening to Purcell.

Purcell's *Funeral Music For Queen Mary* is old school black stuff. so beautiful. so sad.

I have a soft spot for Profanatica's "Funeral Music For Queen Mary's Asshole" but that's different I guess

a soft spot I tell you

scott is it just me or are you getting blunted and listening to black metal tonite

― aerosmith: the acid house years (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Saturday, November 20, 2010 7:34 PM (6 minutes ago) Bookmark

welp at least now i have something to do

and like i said i got rid of that cali shit. back to local hillbilly organic. my special friend said everyone loved the cali stuff except me. he said i was weird. like he should talk.

<3 this guy

Listening to Bulldozer a lot this week. More thrash than black but fuck yeah, Bulldozer.

lying in bed listening to scarlatti and reading old musical heritage reviews from the 80's. snobbiest damn editorial columns on earth! plus, incoherent rants from harlan ellison. every magazine needs some of those. life is good.

I don't think I ever saw this magazine

it was put out by the people who did the musical heritage society label. a non-profit classical cabal! they sold mail order stuff too. its part catalog for new cassette releases and part classical freak political organ. or something. lots of little essays and blurbs about hot new baroque releases.

oh man messiaen. he's messing with my head right now. its like living in a ghost world where haunted churches speak to you.

oh wait musical heritage society, we subscribed, they were kinda columbia-house-ish only they printed all their own stuff - that uniform presentation! but I don't remember Ellison writing for that catalog -- ! really??

don't know how long he did it for. man, i got a ton of copies of magazine of fantasy & science fiction from the 80's and his movie reviews... wow. just wow. what a strange strange man. he's something else. he just can't stop himself. he just goes and goes. him and asimov. his columns too. so many words over so many years.

I used to love his movie reviews in F&SF (for some reason my junior high school library had a subscription). Man, did he hate Gremlins. But he liked Repo Man.

he's kinda nuts!

gonna transcribe this bit in this one column. be back with ellison.

answered my fan mail when I was a kid - long hand-typed specific-to-my-question answer. forever solid in my book for that

this is from a "freewheeling" piece on benny goodman:

"One tends to forget, if one is continually exposed to what passes for popular music today, that it is possible for music to make you smile. One need not wish to stuff one's head in the oven or drink Lysol after having spent an hour listening to music. There is a panacea available for the logorrhea of Top-40 babble. It comes as an over-the-counter medication packaged under the trade name Goodman."

i make fun, but i respect his weirdness big time.

actually part of the liner-notes he wrote for a new benny goodman album in 1986. Benny's response to the notes: "This kid can write."

http://books.google.com/books?id=2VvWm6_QZFEC&pg=PR23&lpg=PR23&dq=harlan+ellison+benny+goodman&source=bl&ots=mZ9JymljFD&sig=eApOLCSOUWQHl4CMA5Vyz2HYf-M&hl=en&ei=CZfoTNvGGYT48Aa5xIGpCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

oh no don't get me wrong dude is v. high on his own rhetoric -- all his nonfic writing is basically MY DISPARAGING ADJECTIVES, LET ME SHOW YOU THEM

I spoke to Ellison on the phone once, and met him at one of those I'm-gonna-sit-in-this-bookstore-and-write-in-front-of-you things he used to do. He dated my stepmother in the late 60s when he used to live on the East Coast, and when I mentioned her name he said "______ from Brooklyn?" in this excited I-remember-that-person voice. So that was cool.

I got a hand-typed response when I wrote to Hubert Selby Jr. I wish I still had that letter but it disappeared somewhere/somehow.

dudes, i am listening to some seriously troo norwegian darkness right now. Fartein Valen. wow. string quartet no 2. dude was into some heavy shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YeJa_TnB0M&feature=related

more kult norwegian stuff now. Ketil Hvoslef! concerto for contrabasso. very cool. why isn't he famous? sounds unbelievable. here's a weird one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivsTNzty-L0

He loved cats, nature and literature, cultivated roses (even developed an award winning hybrid), and after losing them in a devastating freeze took up growing cacti.

YEAH, EXCUSE ME LADIES IF I COULD JUST

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HpkbOFRCS8

THERE.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Xl8cAa6UWi0/TV1p-BEYBEI/AAAAAAAACjM/qUlBkJr03ak/s1600/Fen2011.jpg

I heard this album today by the English band Fen. It's pretty damn good. Anyone know anything about them?

I know I hate the font.

Yeah that font makes it look like Sigur Ros decided to take a decidedly darker turn.

6. Jef Whitehead Sexually Assaults Girlfriend with Tattoo Gun

^^ this is way worse that murdering in supposed self-defense imo but hey

fuck that guy, for real

wrong thread mr ilxor

i think you were replying to that article posted on the rolling metal thread

though the posters above you think font crimes are far more serious

lol whoops ^___________^

font crimes vs church burning vs murder

vs. pantera

pantera clearly the worst

iirc the churches were burned because of font crimes, the whole religion thing was just a red herring

pantera fans even worse

anybody who won't ride for Dimebag Darrel isn't an actual fan of metal, full stop, sorry to be the bearer of bad news

dimebag darrel awesomeness offset by phil anselmo douchebaggery

if dimebag darrel had played in a band with stalin, pol pot, hitler & the boston strangler, that band would still be awesome

pol pot fucking monster on the drums iirc

ok well admittedly a band that was just stalin, pol pot, hitler & the boston strangler would be kinda awesome just for sheer murder power but the point is that dimebag redeems anything with which he was associated

Never cared for his guitar sound. Sorry I cant be more technical as I'm not a muso but I just don't like what I hear.

besides which motherfuckers rep for burzum all fuckin' day with a little "oh sure he's an outright nazi but the MUSIC" and meanwhile Anselmo is a better musician & makes better records 10 days out of 10 but lacks the exotic-Norwegian-nazi qualifier I guess

Anselmo repped for black metal way back in the day. Maybe he likes white power... oh wait

it's just weird that ppl who're v. v. "it doesn't really affect the music for me" about NSBM garbage are suddenly hyper-political when it comes to Anselmo

I like my racism with exotic nordic flair

What is the case for Anselmo being a racist btw?

it's just weird that ppl who're v. v. "it doesn't really affect the music for me" about NSBM garbage are suddenly hyper-political when it comes to Anselmo

yes but that kind of person could also say the same about you with burzum & anselmo

xp @ Phil, racist outbursts on stage on several occasions

uh

xp

like there is no q that Anselmo's got some v. o_0 opinions. they really bother indie-metal burzum fans because Varg's from Norway but Phil's from Louisiana.

he did
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxQk3DC3gL0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxLEb1uBHhw&feature=related

and on another vid he mouthed white power during a song

sorry to get even more aggro than usu. I've just been listening to lots of old metal with awesome musicians and I get all heated up when I hear some of the boring amateur burzum crap that people rep for all day getting lauded for its indie-rock "depth" over actually decent bands. algerian goalkeeper rides for a lot of nazi crap but since he can't translate it from norwegian or french it's no-harm no-foul I guess

wtf

what nazi crap do i ride for?

aren't you a burzum defender? my bad if not, I'm going to a movie though, will be back to slander you later

I am 100% onboard with aerosmith here, I mean it is super super o_O to be okay with Burzum and not Anselmo. But for me Pantera will always and forever be linked in my mind with the racist douchebags that used to beat the shit out of my friends in high school. So, dud.

i dont defend him, i refuse to buy anything he's ever made. 2 years ago I finally downloaded a couple of Burzum albums after what 15 years or something of avoiding him and other norwegian BM because of the whole nazi thing) and found that the music was actually quite good.
Siegbran is the one who will listen to nsbm because of the music but he is in no way a neo nazi or an indie metal defender. I refuse to listen to any of that nsbm stuff. I avoided drudkh for years because of rumours until they made the statement refuting it.

but can we not argue politics in metal again this year unless we have a particular reason like another new Burzum rec.... oh, wait

What is the case for Anselmo being a racist btw?

REally? I think I've read 2 or 3 interviews w/ Anselmo and they all started with the describing the creepy backwoods Lousisiana roads to get to his compound, and only finding by the GIANT confederate flag that fies over it...

..subtle.

And there is plenty of burzum haters on ilm who hate pantera too. its got fuck all to do with "indie rock"

(xp) Phil is a person with low intelligence with a penchant for self-abuse who likes a lot of good music and sometimes performed some himself.

I don't see why I cannot separate the bonehead from the bone crushing.

Hating a band because you do not like them is one thing; pinning that hate on personal politics is silly unless a case can be made that the personal politics fueled the music itself and I don't see that in Pantera but I am open to correction.

agreed...

Really Pantera also offended me on a personal level with the cover for Power Metal.

Color pencil IS very offensive..

One of the names for the metal band my friends and I talked about but never formed was Dustin Dimebagg.

more or less stupid than the real name the guitarist chose when he did form a band, Parallax?

dustin diamond

I'm listening to Ildjarn right now. Sounds like shit.

If only we had someone who knew about indie to tell us about indie metal. ilxor are you around? What BM bands does pitchfork like?

i dont know, i only read the belle & sebastian reviews, sheesh

You're a true ilxor, ilxor!

sorry to get even more aggro than usu. I've just been listening to lots of old metal with awesome musicians and I get all heated up when I hear some of the boring amateur burzum crap that people rep for all day getting lauded for its indie-rock "depth" over actually decent bands. algerian goalkeeper rides for a lot of nazi crap but since he can't translate it from norwegian or french it's no-harm no-foul I guess

― five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Friday, February 18, 2011 4:51 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

wtf are you even arguing?

it's called trolling I think

p bad job

he certainly picked on the wrong poster to say "rides for a lot of nazi crap" about.

fwiw I have actually paid for Burzum albums and Pantera albums. Pantera was easier tpo rationalize cuz the other dudes seemed like good guys, but it took me many years for Burzum.

That said, I pirated his last album...and spend a lot of time preaching against him to metalheads, and pointing out plenty of good non-NSBM black metal.

Really though the whole scene is shady. I felt sick to my stomach hearing the Faust (Bard Eithun) story after I'd already acquired every Emperor release known to man.

If we want to be pedantic Burzum isn't actually NSBM since his views aren't expressed on his songs (not to mention the fact that the classic albums were released before he went to prison where he then supposedly began to express his views).
But perhaps someone who was into the whole thing back then can tell us.

I can say w/pretty much 100% certainty that anselmo was ( at least in the early/mid 90s) a big supporter of white power bullshit, but I am leery of getting into specifics here because of day job stuff.

Learning norwegian on rosetta stone overnight brb

BTW, back in my record store days, we used to call albums that hinted at NSBM as "sketchy." I liked it and suggest we adapt that here.

Phil believes in White Pride. I remember getting in an argument with a Pantera dan who argued that White Pride was acceptable and not racist (lolwtf)

whatever Anselmo's deal was (I knew a lot of dudes like him when going to high school in TX so I have a pretty good idea), Pantera wasn't racist or about racism. their shtick eventually got tired, and they did spawn a lot of meat-head wannabes (so did fellow great 90s bands Faith No More and Sepultura imo), but Cowboys through Far Beyond Driven was a legendary run of albums that made a huge impact on today's metal. it's not a surprise to me that some younger metal dudes don't hold them in the same high regard as I do, but I guess it's understandable. maybe they just didn't age well... my dad didn't understand why I liked the Doors but not Iron Butterfly... maybe it's the same deal. it doesn't make a lot of sense to me that anyone into stoner/sludge stuff would be put off by Pantera, though.

I love Cowboys through Driven, though I have to admit I rebought Vulgar Display of Power.a few years ago and it has dropped immwnsely in standing with me since I first heard it.

Aside from the white power shot, I am able to hate pantera

I hate my phone

Aside from the white power vibe I m able to hate pantera thx to hating phils shitty shouty fake hardcore vocals. And I like plenty of hardcore, I just think it was a terrible thing to throw on top of some relatively decent riffy stuff I might have liked oultherwise. Just a bad fit for my ears I guess.

I still sometimes have a hard time believing he's the same dude that sang Cemetary Gates

Also I much prefer listening to Exhorder's Slaughter in the Vatican over Pantera anyday

understand why US folks might be more OK with weird racist dude from Norway over racist dude from the US South. not any better for sure, but i get it.

think the indie rock poser call out is some lame bullshit.

Also I much prefer listening to Exhorder's Slaughter in the Vatican over Pantera anyday

here here!!!

Not even knowing the contaversy that would be develop, back in the day I was like wow, Pantera sure does have some similarities to Exhorder.. I LOVE Exhorder.. I always thought they were very underrratted and it was unfortunate that they were never able to record a good soundding record. But the riffage is amazing. And dudes vox were very original, until Phil decided to lift that style usuing dude from Sacred Reich's voice..

i always liked this cover:

http://www.rpmmotorsportstulsa.com/Greg/PITJ.jpg

i like the colors. already kind of a "sketchy" album title! don't know what the song is about though. never heard it.

i never listened to pantera. i've never heard a whole album. would see their videos on mtv and never thought much about them.

i purposely avoided pantera cuz of sketchy hesher dudes in high school that i didn't like

yeah, i didn't even really have an opinion back then. i knew they were around and big in the 90's, but there was so much other awesome metal to listen to back then. and if i wanted to hear knucklehead stuff i could always pull out an old youth of today or slapshot album when i was drunk.

Does anyone know a fan of glam pantera? (from the actual time) just to see what they think of what followed.

the whole industrial metal thing passed me by in the 90's too. machine head. never listened to biohazard. felt like a rehash of the 80's crossover stuff i liked. i mean i loved agnostic front and first cro mags album, so, again, its not like i was allergic to brootal mosh shit.

but the 90's had such great NEW sounds! exciting sounds.

I like some pantera songs just fine but jjjusten otm about phil's fake shouty hardcore vox. "walk" is so lame.

ARE YOU TALKIN TO ME?
NO WAY, PUNK

also read a decibel interview with phil a few months ago and he was bragging about how he beat up some guy in the 80s. cool guy.

and from a purely lyrical perspective, burzum songs are basically all about forests but phil's tough guy lyrics are definitely something of a turnoff for me.

and i don't want to do that whole "they did it better when i was a lad..." thing. its just that i had been listening to metal + punk crossover stuff for almost a decade before pantera hit it big, so it just wasn't exciting to me in a way that it would have been exciting to a teenager in the early 90's or whatever. when pantera became huge eyehategod were one of my favorite bands.

i never listen to burzum either actually. i have some of the vinyl reissues that came out but i never play them. i like that old stuff though. i'd probably rather listen to old bathory albums these days.

i just keep playing that new inquisition album. man, i cannot get enough of that.

yeah, I keep meaning to listen to that one. guess I should.

dig their artwork too

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_uUZsHtBFk-s/TPq-1sC539I/AAAAAAAABAo/LDa8RSeFHzc/s1600/Inquisition+-+Ominous+Doctrines+of+the+Perpetual+Mystical+Macrocosm_halifaxcollect.blogspot.com.jpg

such a great album.

if i ever made a list of my favorite songs this would be in the top 100. actually the intro might take one spot in my top 100 and the song itself would take another spot. when i got this in 1984 i thought i had died and gone to heaven.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxqPfKiUGTg&playnext=1&list=PL266EB88E49CF72AD

scott what age are you?

i'm 42.

this killed me too in 1984! loved it! love the whole EP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OlkY9W92nE

http://opereamipapa.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/42.jpg

now playing!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3a85nIEiMtw/S8zZPqfZGnI/AAAAAAAAAK0/bI--vqBAo1E/s1600/slapshot.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqteDk15Ud8

http://www.metalinjection.net/announcements/black-metal-history-month-metal-injection

understand why US folks might be more OK with weird racist dude from Norway over racist dude from the US South.

It's easier to couch it as (possibly misguided) nationalistic pride that just happens to be about white folks since those countries are traditionally white whereas the USA has always been a melting pot (since we stole it from the Natives, but that's another kettle of wax) so being pro-America doesn't have those racist tendencies... Although sometimes it does - see Tea Partiers, anti-immigration zealots, country music. (Kidding on the last one... kinda.)

Also, race issues are really complex, rarely just (wait for it) black and white (see what I did there?) and there are often regional and cultural subtleties that make it hard for even the locals to understand it all, let alone those from outside the culture. I mean, I lived in the South part of America but I never been to Norway so while I might see things in a Confederate Flag that others don't, I don't know shit about Scandenavian culture and it's presumptuous of me to consider otherwise.

I find it interesting that Arghoslent rarely comes up in conversations. This band is from Virginia, has been around for the better part of two decades and released three albums. The last two - "Incorrigible Bigotry" and "Hornets of the Pogrom" - are actually quite good musically, though the lyrics are filled with racist ideas and the band has never shied away from expressing their views in interviews.

I stocked their albums when I worked at Magnolia Thunderpussy in Ohio. I wrote on the bin card "Warning: Racist redneck fuckheads."

But they are a perfect example of an American racist band, I think much more so than Phil Anselmo, whose entire musical output and the bulk of his views are not inflammatory (maybe dumb, though).

This brings me to another point that I am not sure I shoudl discuss but I will nonetheless because I think it's important:

When I was the buyer at Relapse Records mail order, a bunch of kids involved in some kind of anti-facist group overseas (don't know exact details) saw that we carried some sketchy releases and they bombarded the email boxes of current and past Relapse artists pointing them to the stuff we carried and how they were now associated with that.

This led to complaints from some bands which led to meetings with me about what we could and could not carry. We caved into the pressure. I hated it, because I feel that even idiots should be allowed to speak and I can appreciate the music of Arghoslent while still feeling they are redneck fuckheads and I simply don't like puttiong myself as the arbitrator of morality.

When I was quite frustrated about how we determined what was able to be sold and what was not (Drudkh was perfectly fine to carry but no Hate Forest, even though they shared members), I expressed my frustration to a good friend of mine named Evan, a huge metal fan from Ohio.

Evan, aside from being kvlt and troo, is also a Jew. A practicing one, keeps Kosher and fasts and everything. And I will paraphrase what he said to me, but I think it made a lot of sense:

"I don't understand why in Death Metal and Black Metal saying Christianity is horrible is perfectly acceptable, but say it about Judaism and it's a horrible taboo. I also don't understand why it's perfectly acceptable to be misogynistic and advocate violence towards women for that matter."

I think he makes a point. It seems hypocritical to me that bands as blatant as Deicide and a billion other death metal bands (and certainly a ton of black metal ones too) can blatantly be anti-Christian (and even anti-Muslim is pretty accepted in metal circles) and bands can even take anti-religion stances entirety. But specify Judaism and that changes things?

But that goes into the complex issues on religion which make race relations seem like a kindergarden exam in comparison...

I babbled. I hope some of it makes sense...

jews are a really small minority though in comparison to christians. and there were people who actually tried to exterminate every jew on earth less than a hundred years ago. so, there IS a difference.

its weird, cuz a way to be all white power and not have anyone get upset is just yell about your polish power or irish power or swedish power. same thing really. and nobody would care.

the amount of ACTIVELY ns/racist bands with a high profile or that people would actually here is so very small. isn't it?

I think your friend Evan isn't thinking through the problem very carefully. When Deicide says that Christianity is horrible they are doing so in a culture that is predominately Christian, where their statements are understood to be anarchistic or rebellious and their pose is carefully stylized and cultivated with that in mind. Tho there has been anti-Christian violence due to NSBM (primarily church burnings and other stuff covered in places like Lords of Chaos) there has never been an existential threat linked to a particular ethos (such as National Socialism in the 1940s). Nb I am very interested in nsbm and I don't think there's anything wrong with being curious about it and I'm certainly not trying to condemn it. But I think that Evan's statement is missing a lot of the subtlety. I think that the long history of anti-semitic rhetoric leading to actual severe anti-semtiic violence makes it more dangerous than anti-christian rhetoric which, at least in my eyes, can never be quite as threatening. YMMV, etc. (Kerr asked me to respond so... idk.)

aka what scott said

Do pagans and church of satan people etc get hassle from religious types?

I think there's a lot of truth to what scott and mordy said about why saying being an "anti-christian" band is quite different than an NSBM one due to extreme historical persecution.

but.

I also don't understand why it's perfectly acceptable to be misogynistic and advocate violence towards women for that matter.

this is something I can get behind. another group with no small share of historical persecution and pornogrind bands even get mainstream coverage in mags like decibel.

and arghoslent really are quite good but I paid attention to their lyrics once and it churned my stomach. haven't listened since.

I am half Jewish myself. On mom's side even. German Jew so I know I had relatives who escaped the holocaust. I am not insensitive to this.

I guess maybe it's also about what the bands espouse... Anti-Christian bands take on the institution of Christianity and the history, whereas the NSBMers take on actual Jews using the stereotypes and whatnot.

I am pretty sure that David Vincent or Glen Benton knows Christians and might even be friendly with them even if they find their religion silly. I don't see the Count or Arghoslent members from associating with Jews or blacks or whatever.

And I think a lot of bands do it for shock. such as:

http://arslibertatis.com/sources/jesus_is_a_cunt.jpg

dani filth is a cunt (uk kind btw )

most anti-Semites aren't hating Jews because of their Judaism, is the deal - it is racism. Hating Christians is like hating fascists -- if a fascist stops being one, you can't really call him a fascist any more. NSBM dudes are very into ethnic identity, eugenics shit, etc. One hates Christians for their track record of annihilating native cultures and institutions, complicity with evil governments, etc. Anti-Xian sentiment is political, not racial.

Goregrind seems a separate issue to me, you won't find a lot of goregrind dudes arguing that the shit that goes on in their songs is stuff that should be happening because women are bad or anything. It's purgative, cathartic, etc. (I take issue with plenty of that stuff too, I don't listen to much pornogrind but the anti-human stance of good death metal seems a thing apart.) When we're talking about nazis in metal, we are talking about people who believe that non-white races are inferior, and who espouse this belief. That particular stance is objectionable to my mind; "life is shitty and ugly and all kinds of horrible shit goes down, and also Christians fuck everything up" is a different deal.

i cant even remember what Pantera's lyrics were about

hes one enlightened dude

Politics? Feel like going off on our president or what we are doing in Iraq?
I just think that anybody that complains about what the President has done by sending over troops and kicking a little ass, they need to realize, y’know… let’em go cry and let’em go protest to the victims of 9-11 for number one. Number two, if we absolutely did nothing, then, I think most of America would be at the polls and all saying “We should do something.” So the President was in a no win situation. He HAD to go over there and fucking lay down the law and kick somebody’s fucking ass… he really did… by public pressure. If you fuck with the US, there is going to be a rebuttal. And thus far, we’ve been so, bit by bit by bit just chipping away at them. And being successful to a certain point. We are putting the fear back in the fucking terrorists. Because the countries that are harboring the terrorists, fuck, they are dead if we find out. And they know it. And so they don’t want the terrorists there. They are going to be saying, “Get out of here. You are not welcome here either. We don’t want America fucking kicking our ass. Get out of here.” And they are not going to be wanted anywhere. So I think by laying down a fucking offensive, we laid down a lot of ground rules about fucking with America.

Even if the reasons cited for War were the Weapons of Mass destruction (that have yet to be found)?
I think the media has a funny way of twisting what really is so. Anybody who pulls that on America is going to get their fucking ass kicked. I don’t care who you are… you are going to get blown up. It just reminds me that I don’t think there is any successful country that doesn’t have a backstabbing, bloody knife hidden in some drawer somewhere. Things have to get ugly. And they do. And they have for thousands of years.

The major press seems to be paying attention. You were in the Rolling Stone with the Mary Kate and Ashley Olsen cover! What’s your opinion of the major music media outlets?
Not much. After years of ignoring Pantera, who was a phenomena really, within itself, for how many records we sold, and how well we did, with as little media coverage as possible, at least the mainstream media, the radio, etc. Which to me is as mainstream as you can get, besides MTV. And then again, there is MTV.

I remember MTV giving you guys a nod back in the day.
Well, on Vulgar Display of Power… but the very first time I slipped up and said the word “nigger” or did something that may have not been politically correct, they were all over my ass like I was the guy who shot the president or something. And that’s what I didn’t appreciate. That’s what most media outlets do. They build you up only to tear your ass fucking to shreds.

while searching for online articles about phil's love of BM (he was the first american big name i ever saw talking about it way back) I came across this. Not linking it direct for obvious reasons
stormfront.org/forum/t585216/

dude's all about fucking asses getting fucking kicked.

why are we still going on about Phil anyway? is this thread just about racist musicians now? should we start talking about Eric Clapton, too? haven't we done this on other threads?

noone here has really heard actual nsbm bands most likely so we cant discuss them. We could just talk about good black metal bands that aren't neo nazi's..

It is after all
http://www.metalinjection.net/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/black-metal-history-month.jpg

i like graveland! he's "sketchy", right?

would much rather listen to graveland than varg. they can both can be pretty trippy, but the best graveland stuff is total hypno-metal. its one of the big reasons why i like a lot of the black metal that i do. the hypnotic repetition really does help some of these guys achieve some sort of actual trip into the void. you dig? they really do take me to another world at times. and i imagine that they take themselves out of the world when they're making it. but unlike committing suicide, they can come back! its an old trick teenagers have been using for years. see how close to the edge you get and then back away at the last moment.

i learned to embrace pantera's sound when it was combined with europrog and Abba.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TcKoqGKuz6U&feature=fvwrel

Graveland is the only actual NSBM band I could name. Will never listen to them though.

i always got the impression that that dude just hates everybody. except viking ghosts. and wolves.

i think i read a varg interview somewhere where he seemed to hate everyone inc nsbm guys and especially "the jews running the world". He hasn't mellowed, he's still a racist anti-semetic prick. If that kind of thing was in his lyrics im pretty sure Burzum would sell about as many records as graveland. I cant imagine NSBM being that big a scene, though apparently there's a lot of polish/russian/ukrainian NSBM acts. Doubt they're very well known though.

Of course there's some "heritage" acts that seem a bit dodgy and are being evasive about it all. Cant help feeling it's because they're not daft and know it would hurt their sales and gigs would be banned in most places.

but you cant prove that they are racist or nazi pond scum either. So you kind of either give them the benefit of the doubt (like most do with drudkh as they at least made a statement denying it) or you ignore them completely if you're not sure about them.

Can anyone remember when the black metal bands went beyond the satanism & church burning stuff and started embracing extreme right wing ideology? or was it always there? I knew quite a few people into Burzum etc at the time and none of them are anything other than lefties. Infact every single Burzum fan i know is left wing, some aren't white either. Did the whole thing start when varg was imprisoned?

Grand Belial's Key! I've heard them. when i first went on last fm i was struck by the selections they had of some of this stuff. i'll bet that's the first place a lot of people heard Hate Forest. every time i searched for metal on there they popped up!

btw I have an anecdote for you via a former ilxor who, whilst born in Poland, but moved to Canada as a kid, went back to visit family in Poland in the 90s and he said that back then you had black metal kids walking around with SWORDS. Fucking swords!!! That's hardcore shit. Fuck your gun culture - SWORDS!! How mental is that?!
Now he's moved to Poland to live he says it's calmed down a bit and no BM swordsmen are to be seen. He says it is very NSBM country though. Eastern Europe must be crazy.

What would you do Scott if some crazy longhaired dudes with swords came into your shop looking for black metal albums?

nordic bm has always been pretty aryan. since bathory. as far as bm having the race theme. singing about vikings all the time and a wintry pagan past is "race" music of a sort. if you are from there.

swords? i dunno. if they had money i'd probably be good. i never have any black metal records though. i would have to go out of my way to get them and they cost too much. and they just cost more used. way more.

I thought you were going to say you would just check to see if it was Dan :)

dan my brother? he's crazy but he's not graveland crazy. i feel like i do give the graveland dude a pass of sorts because he's so nuts. but that's not right. but sometimes people that nuts do end up going further. i don't know. i'm not really one of those people looking for crazy outsider art all the time. but there is no denying it when you do hear or see something that was created outside of society. normal society? i don't need nazi stuff though. it should be about freedom not fascism.

no i dont mean that, i just mean he might turn up with a sword!

i know hes not graveland type guy (spoke to him in ilxchatz enough to know hes a good dude)

do you sell much metal btw?

This is an extremely silly thread and I shouldn't even weigh in, but I will. If you don't like Pantera, you don't like metal, and any opinions you may have about metal will fall on deaf ears with me. Everything from Power Metal (have you actually heard it, or just snickered at the cover?) through Reinventing the Steel is as metal as it gets. (Burzum, on the other hand, barely qualifies as music, let alone metal. Even if I had no idea what the guy believed about anything, his music would still be worthless. And anyhow, of the three extramusical reasons I'm anti-Burzum, RACIST comes in a fair distance behind ARSONIST and MURDERER.) Any fuckin' feeb who wants to whine about Phil Anselmo being a lunkhead who hangs Confederate flags up and pulls out the "Why isn't there a White History Month, maaannn?" card - can have at it. I've interviewed Phil Anselmo. I've watched him ramble drunkenly onstage. He is every bit the lunkhead you say he is. But Pantera's music is pure fucking metal. Loud, aggressive, ugly, crass, played with rare talent and skill. And that's my final word on this subject.

for whatever measly bit it's worth:

http://www.invisibleoranges.com/2010/07/interview-phil-anselmo/

If you don't like Pantera, you don't like metal

Sorry Phil, but that is nonsense. I already explained why i didn't like them musically, Phil Anselmo could be the nicest bloke in the world and i still wouldn't like their music. But I dont care if people say im not metal, never claimed to be and there's plenty of people who have said im not metal over the past 20 years, just like there's some who actually think all i listen to is metal, some think i only listen to funk & electronic music. Even jazz. But not liking Pantera will never be the reason "why I'm not metal".

and any opinions you may have about metal will fall on deaf ears with me

I'm sure that will have always been the case in that I doubt you have ever trusted a recommendation from myself but I really hope you're not making it personal against me. We're all entitled to our opinions.

it takes a phil to know a phil. i've never had any problem with people who like pantera. i can see why people like them. i've just always found them really easy to avoid. even phil anselmo has plenty of friends who don't dig pantera! pantera definitely inspired a lot of bad music, but you could say that about a lot of people.

a few thoughts

1. thx to this thread i hauled out slapshot - blast furnace and it holds up - thx scott!
2. (prob going to deindex this thread thx to this) as a dude who sold a lot of gear to p4nz3rf4aust dudes and still deals with the main dude in b0und f0r g10ry on a regular basis thx to being in mn, i want to say that A) this shit makes me uncomfortable and i think the vagaries of this kind of money changing hands can be very uncomfortable if you are a guy that uh doesnt really hate anybody B) I know for sure that 4ns3lm0 was very down with b0und4g because dude from b4g was very proud of the handwritten letter that was uh completely overt and ended with a keep up the good work, phil. also, according to same dude, there was def some $$$ changing hands, and iirc there were references to funding in the same letter.
3. aside from all of that, i'm kinda assuming that unperson is kinda fucking w/us, because i am pretty sure i like metal and racism aside, pantera leaves me totally cold.

don't necessarily think you have to love Pantera's particular brand of metal to be a true metalhead, but I liked unperson's rant anyway. Pantera is on the opposite end of the metal spectrum as whatever art-metal band is the current flavor of the month, and I can get an old school metalhead's frustration seeing the same people talking up one metal-for-people-who-don't-like metal shoegaze groups on one thread, and then slagging on Pantera on another.

I do remember living in Houston at the time Pantera was getting huge, and the guys who hosted the death metal show I listened to religiously fucking despised them, and had about 50 different nicknames for them (mostly having to do with their glam roots).

re: Graveland.. I didn't realize he was straight up NSBM... was under the impression he was more of a right-wing Polish nationalist nut-job who likes swords and shit. I love the triumphant war hymn vibe of his music - it's great music for working out.

i think was going to add a "so YMMV" type of thing after 2nd paragraph. drunk.

don't necessarily think you have to love Pantera's particular brand of metal to be a true metalhead, but I liked unperson's rant anyway. Pantera is on the opposite end of the metal spectrum as whatever art-metal band is the current flavor of the month, and I can get an old school metalhead's frustration seeing the same people talking up one metal-for-people-who-don't-like metal shoegaze groups on one thread, and then slagging on Pantera on another.

This is my real point here. Pantera are a point on a line that runs from Judas Priest and Manowar through Morbid Angel, and if you can't get down with what they're doing on a musical level, you can't get down with metal's cardinal virtues and are better off listening to Agalloch or Liturgy or Jesu. I don't wanna get all Philip Larkin up in here, but I feel that a lot of black metal is actually anti-metal, intent on denying the cardinal virtues of the genre - bigness, loudness, crassness, chest-thumping and howling at the moon. Real metal is not about wandering the wintry woods (or huddling in your basement) feeling sorry for yourself. Real metal is always pointed outward, never inward.

i don't agree. metal has never been one thing and one thing only. metal is lots of things. and always has been. for the most part big and loud, but not always crass, chest-thumping or howling. and plenty of inwardness from sabbath to priest and on and on.

maybe we can all just agree that some metal fans are more conservative than other metal fans.

As I sit here, looking over the Lucretius I am going to teach my grad students tomorrow, wearing a Bloody Panda t-shirt, and remembering that I left my Immortal/Absu tickets for the show tonight in my office on campus, I wonder, "Am I the part of the problem that unperson is complaining about? Does going to see Weedeater count?"

But then I think about the sheer number of heavy metal songs about solitude- from Black Sabbath's "Solitude" to Candlemass and on and on- and Scott's point seems OTM to me- it's not that there isn't a huge/hefty portion of heavy metal that fits the "outwardness" claim- it's just that it's not the whole story, and it never has been.

off topic, but do you think pornogrind fans are so obsessed with porn that they actually want their MUSIC to be porn too? i mean, its possible that they just want everything to be porn. like the sandwich that they are eating. they might even wish that the moon was porn. and they probably wish that their mom was porn so that when she was talking to them about boring stuff they could look at porn.

"maybe we can all just agree that some metal fans are more conservative than other metal fans."

I think we can all agree on that.

it's not the whole story, and it never has been

Of course not. But "Solitude" and "Fade to Black" and other such songs are the exceptions, which is why they stand out from the discographies of the bands who record them. It's why not every Pantera song sounds like "Cemetery Gates." When you make that sort of drown-in-my-own-tears wallowing your primary musical raison d'etre, you are setting yourself up in opposition to metal's core aesthetic principles. Which is fine. Go do that, if that's your thing. But just as a lot of indie rock should not use the term "rock" to describe itself, because it does not, in fact, rock (rocking being a definable thing having everything to do with rhythm sections), a lot of black metal and art-metal should not call itself metal because it abandons core principles in favor of moroseness and attempts to trance out. Metal isn't about trancing out, it's about screaming catharsis. And if that's the kind of "metal" you like more than all other kinds, well, you don't really understand (maybe a word I should have used instead of "like" in my initial post) metal.

*rolls eyes*

*rolls eyes*

At which part? I'm saying exactly what I think. If you wanna disagree, show your work.

You're free to think whatever you want, but I think this kind of bizarre rule setting around what constitutes a genre to be pretty tiresome small-minded stuff. I'm not invested in being or liking "real metal" though so whatever.

imo if you dont like Hanoi Rocks go home

"Metal isn't about trancing out, it's about screaming catharsis."

see, there you go again. metal is ONE thing. metal can actually walk and chew gum at the same time. exhibit a...black metal! a genre filled with trance-inducing screaming catharsis!

If this were the middle ages we'd be arguing about whether the humoral temperament of metal is really sanguine or really melancholic or really choleric or really phlegmatic.

Unperson I'm glad you bring up Liturgy because to me their work exposes the contrast between "rocking out" and "trancing out" that you propose as a false choice. When I listen to Liturgy on headphones they are intense and immersive and completely attention-seeking- I am not ignoring it and treating it as ambient muzak- I'm totally propelled by it in a way that feels aggressive and intense to me. Since it's anchored in riffs, it sounds like rocking out to me. I went to see Liturgy's last show in Baltimore and they fucking bring it. I was banging my head, people were getting really into it, it wasn't people sadly staring at their shoes. Their drummer is sick as hell, and the big riffs on the new songs they played were directly related to a long history of metal that certainly precedes just black metal (honestly- one of the new ones was weirdly Zeppelin-esque in places). So, while I would grant that there are all sorts of demographic and sensibility differences along a spectrum of metal from aggressively attention seeking to wispy and inward (i.e. from Accept to Xasthur, say), I don't buy into the essential premise here. For that matter, consider the way that individual metal songs have different sections- fast parts, mid-tempo moshy bits, intros, outros- which arguably position the same song along different points on that spectrum. Another way to think about this would be to say that people who like metal like it because they are seeking "intensity"- some people experience intensity through Morbid Angel, others through Khanate, others through Sombre Chemin or Striborg. There is a family resemblance among these groups, but it's not narrow. Obviously, "intensity" spreads outwards beyond metal and is an aesthetic value that's present in just about anything people care about- it's a marker of affective investment rather than a primary quality inherent in things.

"metal is about stuff i like, and not about stuff i don't"

"metal is about stuff i like, and not about stuff i don't"

I haven't cited a single band on this thread that I don't listen to for my own pleasure.

Except Burzum, of course.

while I accept that the actual truth-value of "if you don't like Pantera, you don't like metal" is negligible, I would offer "if you are the sort of person who tut-tuts/takes issue with/gets sandy-buttcracky about statements like 'if you don't like [band], you don't like [genre]' then you yourself aren't very metal" as an alt

I mean seriously the whole genre is built on flipping off dudes with new wave hair and yelling "slayer"

yeah metal fans never get sandy-buttcracky about ANYTHING. they never debate or question statements about the genre. and they never get mad about sweeping statements about metal.

metalheads are generally why I dislike going to metal concerts anymore. they're often one level above knuckledragging

but uh anyway black metal is awesome. like seriously gimme Taake, Darkthrone, Abigor, Emperor, Immortal, all that shit, and I'll fuck with it.

also gimme old Bathory and old Celtic Frost and I'll get a metal boner every time.

80's metal!1111!!!!!!!11!

liturgy's an interesting case because they fulfill all of unperson's weird criteria in ways that drew does a great job of outlining. hunter from liturgy thinks about this shit a lot, and he's consciously making non-introverted black metal, he thinks american black metal should be aggressive, ecstatic and cathartic in contrast with european black metal.

on the other hand they are def not metal dudes. I've seen them open for white mice, tyvek, they're doing some dates w/ the ex, and they feel out of place on pure metal bills. so in that sense they are not "metal", but if you're gonna pass by some great musicians because they don't fit yr narrow genre tag, well rock on with yr death to false metal steez...

itt the BATTLE for the SOUL of METAL will be fought

there was a time I cared about being a 'real' metalhead. now I'd rather think of myself as a music lover whose collection just happens to be 56.5% metal.

i hate pantera but i love helloween - does that cancel out my shameful unmetalness? or do i have to go to the reeducation camp and get ludivicoed with Manowar videos until i see the light?

but um when ppl say bad things about slayer sometimes i black out and wake up in a pool of blood hours later with no memory of prior events

Helloween is awes, at least Keeper of the Seven Keys era. I also like Angra's first two albums!

Am I allowed to like both Pantera and Agalloch?

if you're gonna pass by some great musicians because they don't fit yr narrow genre tag, well rock on with yr death to false metal steez...

Yeah, my hatred of Liturgy is well-established.

this thread is like the shaolin and wu-tang fighting

at least it's not deej & whiney fighting

i hate pantera but i love helloween - does that cancel out my shameful unmetalness?

to me this elevates you to an advanced level of realness - if you will cop to listening to Iron Savior records I think your permacred will be ensured

idk in a way watching metalheads argue over what 'is' metal is more annoying cuz i've been dealing with that for 15 years, whereas the whiney-deej beef i ain't so burnt out on yet.

Wrathchild America yo!

but if you're gonna pass by some great musicians because they don't fit yr narrow genre tag, well rock on with yr death to false metal steez

the thing you can do tho is listen to that stuff, enjoy it, and still call the people who rep for it poseurs & see 'em get real sanctimonious about how they'd rather be a poseur than narrow-minded - it's win/win

if i were gonna be hyperbolic phil-style i might go along with a "if you don't like black sabbath/judas priest you don't really like metal" statement. maybe that's too easy though. but the pantera thing, yeah, can't hang with that. if you like metal and lived and died and never heard pantera you'd be fine. i just think there are way better pantera-esque things you could listen to. if you needed pantera-esque music.

this dude I knew on USEnet who posted as venmlegi0n insisted the term 'poser' came from glam bands in the 80's who 'posed' for press pictures and had nothing to do with someone who was a 'pretender'

imo disliking judas priest and/or black sabbath doesn't make you 'not metal' per se...

it makes you not human.

this dude I knew on USEnet who posted as venmlegi0n insisted the term 'poser' came from glam bands in the 80's who 'posed' for press pictures and had nothing to do with someone who was a 'pretender'

ha, I would like to take that guy to Melrose Avenue during the punk era when punks called each other poseurs all day & even opened up a shop using the word - metalheads borrowed the term from punks imo

yea i had no idea what dude was on about.

so uhm can we get a proposal of what "is" and "is not" metal so we can get it ratified in the next hour, i have a wine tasting to get to....

going to wine tasting is not metal?

lol he's got you there San

(turns in his live undead picture disc, walks out solemnly to Hulk outro music)

going to wine tasting is not metal?

As long as you're drinking it from a skull, you're all good.

idk in a way watching metalheads argue over what 'is' metal is more annoying cuz i've been dealing with that for 15 years, whereas the whiney-deej beef i ain't so burnt out on yet.

I think i've got used to the pile-ons of being told on internet message boards that I'm "not metal" after all these years by actual metalheads. Had the same accusations thrown at me because I don't drink,smoke, indulge in drugs. I just shrug my shoulders at it now really.

And now I must depart; I have a review of a 3CD set by Stan Getz to write. (Stop by BurningAmbulance.com tomorrow, won't you?)

mead tastings troo though

art pepper more kult than stan getz.

will raise you one curtis fuller

if you don't like lee konitz you don't like jazz.

if you don't like arcade fire you're indie..

Konitz gets mentioned, but only in passing.

when people come in my store and say "got any sun ra?" and then leave without even looking at my jazz section it pisses me off. posers.

and if one more person comes in and asks me if i have any townes van zandt records and then leaves empty-handed without looking at ANYTHING i'm gonna run down the street after them and shove a merle haggard record down their throat.

I love the story about rufus arguing with a kid who had said records were silly. No *that's* metal!

he tore that kid up. i was proud. that was kinda scary AND funny at the same time.

what did the kids father say?

Pantera are a point on a line that runs from Judas Priest and Manowar through Morbid Angel

Pantera is a point on the line that runs from Kiss, Warrant, Bon Jovi through to Korn, Slipknot and Brokencyde.

posted this in another thread, but enjoy (think this is from alt.music.slayer from 1999 or 2000):
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"S!gnificant P!ckle" wrote in message

[snip banter]

> Well let's think logically here. If a metalhead is into music for the
> music, he ignores music he doesn't like. He isn't threatened by it.

I am very threatened by boy bands. They represent the epitome of a
pseudo-culture that, like a disease (or a really bad "sci-fi" alien race),
assimilates and destroys all semblance of character our little connected
societies may have had and replaces their value systems with its own. A set
of inherently self-destructive and anti-life value systems, one may add.

I realize this is not what you meant, but can you see >why< it is reasonable
without complete insecurity to be threatened by commercialized music?

> But here's a trend I see: it's almost becoming 'trendy' to hate
> nu-metal. [...]

> HOWEVER...some people out there almost get off on insulting it.
> People get so caught up in who's a poser and who isn't and what band
> is "true" and what isn't that they ignore the quality of the music in
> question.

Not entirely untrue. But why not simply ignore those people, and not be
threatened by them?

</irony>

> Some metalheads are more into the "image" of metal and partially like
> it because of it's image and and the way it makes others perceive
> them. Obviously these people would not want to be associated with
> "nu-metal" because of this. I really am not too fond of these types
> of people because it's almost as if they put the music SECOND behind
> the image/archetype.

Like the idiot mainstream. Fuck 'em. They're not metalheads. They're
POSERS.

> And last, there are some that, whom, because of what other metalheads
> around them say and do, because of their low self-esteem, will bash
> these bands because they don't want to be viewed as a poser.

> And then there's the people that just plain out don't like it.
> However, a truly objective person gives every nu-metal band a chance
> before dismissing them. I don't see a lot of that in the metal
> community of late. I believe in giving everything a fair shake.

You meant to say "value neutral", not "objective".

The whole "open-mindedness" ideal is neat, but impractical. Stereotypes and
generalizations exist for a reason...and are often useful. Why, in the
limited amount of time you have on this earth, would you give something a
fair shake that is part of a group you have had many bad experiences with,
when you could be "open-minded" towards something that fits into a group you
have had little to no exposure to, or - heaven forbid (tm) - from a group
that you have had POSITIVE experience with?

Death is certain...life is not. Fuck the weak, embrace the strong. Etc,
etc.

> > "talentless unoriginal numetal garbage" is pretty descriptive. At least
as
> > much as any subjective interpretation of the music any cretin on this
board
> > can come up with.

> No it isn't, because it says absolutely nothing. "Talentless" is a
> word way overused, many times erroneously. I've heard of countless
> talented bands called "talentless" because they don't wank.

Is that not descriptive??

> "Unoriginal" gives a little more hints but you need to elaborate on
> it, naturally. and "garbage" says nothing as well about a band's
> sound. Granted, some people have a harder time putting into words why
> they don't like something and I don't think everybody should be
> questioned on their tastes but if your'e going to go over the top and
> slam a band you should damn well have real reasons for it. Details,
> details, details.

M-hm. Why am I willing to bet that if the poster had slammed the fuck out
of the band and then copped out with the WEAK subjectivist "The music does
nothing for me, IMHO", it would have been accepted without the need for
details?

Is it because subjectivism is not as threatening? Are opinions dangerous
unless qualified with self-deprecation?

[...]

> Just FYI, I like the Tones but I don't think they're amazing or
> anything, so it's not like I'm biased or anything, I could take them
> or leave them.

I'll just leave 'em, thanks.

DEATH TO FALSE METAL.

(think dude used to contribute to anus.com)

Pantera are a point on a line that runs from Judas Priest and Manowar through Morbid Angel

This is so wrong on so many levels...

Pantera is a point on the line that runs from Kiss, Warrant, Bon Jovi through to Korn, Slipknot and Brokencyde.

― Siegbran, Sunday, 20 February 2011 17:11

I think in Europe metalheads have a different idea of "metal" than Americans and those of us in the UK are caught in the middle. Early 90s I remember a lot of american bands denying they were metal (same as in the 80s with the hair bands who insisted they were rock not metal) yet in Europe metal still sold well and Kerrang covered actual metal bands and alt.bands and plenty in the UK found it just natural to like both. It was not uncommon to find people who liked Nirvana,Pantera,Metallica ,sepultura , alice in chains , soundgarden and Darkthrone/burzum.

Germany seemed to love Paradise Lost.

CMC International made a killing in that transitional period

Pantera of course never ever denied they were metal and that is why so many did love them. Phil Anselmo was definitely the 1st American star to embrace black metal. I think he even had a BM band?

Kerrang was the 1st mag to bring up the phil is racist thing and they lost a lot of fans in the UK because of it I think. Anselmo didn't speak to kerrang for years because of it.

the Phil is racist thing was big around the time Great Southern Trendkill came out....

nothing sums up Phil better than the one time Metal Maniacs reviewed one of their festival shows and said Phil was so drunk that he had to be handed the microphone after practically ever song, he stumbled throughout, then ended the set by saying 'thank you, we rule'.

viking crown! that was phil's bm thing. terrible.

He had several black metal bands/projects - Viking Crown, Christ Inversion and Necrophagia, I think.

what was Eibon?

playing mob rules right now and if you don't like mob rules you don't like metal.

Eibon was the black metal supergroup with Fenriz and a couple of other dudes.

I don't think they actually released anything.

phil put out fenriz's old stoner metal project on his label. wasn't that great.

the thing you can do tho is listen to that stuff, enjoy it, and still call the people who rep for it poseurs & see 'em get real sanctimonious about how they'd rather be a poseur than narrow-minded - it's win/win

― five gone cats from Boston (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Sunday, February 20, 2011 11:39 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

tru, those williamsburg in the throne room joeks go a long way

not outside the USA they dont

sorry you guys are gonna have to make up your own joeks

I dont think BM has made Camden. Maybe there's going to be a BM scene in the west end of Glagow - cardigan wearers with corpsepaint.

which wouldn't be very metal but certainly terrifying

http://www.metalinjection.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/omxcA.jpeg

It was not uncommon to find people who liked Nirvana,Pantera,Metallica ,sepultura , alice in chains , soundgarden and Darkthrone/burzum.

OTM- this was me circa 1992 (I'm British BTW).

I still like Pantera in small doses, "Primal Concrete Sledge" is funny and rocks hard. Though this might be retrospectively coloured, in the early 90s I thought there was something disagreeable about Anselmo's politics- all that Nietzschian will to power (metal) stuff, and the fixation on violence (like the, if true, messed up story about the making of the cover of Vulgar Display of Power. Even without subsequently finding out he was a racist, he never seemed the kind of metal guy my 14 year old self would have liked to hang out with, in contrast to Dimebag and his brother.

Having said this, I can (to some extent) separate the music from the politics. Bowie gave a Nazi salute- that doesn't stop me from thinking his 70s material is unassailable, and has been pointed out upthread there are plenty of other examples you can look to.

what was the story of the cover?

The urban legend was that the model was a fan who was paid $10 for each punch he took, and that Anselmo wound up hitting him over 30 times before the perfect image was achieved. But that story is bullshit; in a recent issue of Revolver, they did an exhaustive investigation of the whole thing (which I didn't read) and debunked it.

Ugh, glad it's not true. Sadly some neanderthals will think it's completely awesome dude and true.

Lots of stupid people believe lots of stupid shit (e.g. religion).

(and varg)

It was not uncommon to find people who liked Nirvana,Pantera,Metallica ,sepultura , alice in chains , soundgarden and Darkthrone/burzum.

OTM- this was me circa 1992 (I'm British BTW).

You read Kerrang then?

oh and is San te back from his wine tasting yet?

The reason everyone believed the Pantera story is cuz the band kept telling it

Xpost HAHAH0HAAHHAAH

did you drink out of viking skulls? Did you wear metal gear?

Pantera is a point on the line that runs from Kiss, Warrant, Bon Jovi through to Korn, Slipknot and Brokencyde.

I bow to Siegbran in all things metal but I gotta take issue with you here friend. Find me one member of any major US death metal band who will not rep for at least one Pantera album and I will be surprised. U.S. death metal dudes generally speak with reserved respect of Pantera tho at the point of Vulgar Display they get contentious, but as of '01 they were still touring with Morbid Angel, who were fresh off Gateways which is a solid record imo. Do you kick Celtic Frost out of the lineage for Cold Lake?

Sadly some neanderthals will think it's completely awesome dude and true.

I graduated with dual honors in classical studies & English literature and I still think it's completely awesome dude and true

I do agree with Phil on Manny P though

That;s a bit besides the point, it's pretty hard to find a oldschool metalhead from the US who will not rep for Kiss either.

I guess what unifies all those bands is that they were all considered lightweight bands for kids at the time by older metalheads, but they do function as gateway bands so the 14 year olds who rocked Pantera t-shirts in jr high will still somewhat fondly look back on them later when they're established musicians, critics, etc so every generation later rehabilitates the crap bands of their youth while trashing the new breed of mallcore. That doesn't work the same way with bands that had an underground following turning into crap (Cold Lake etc) tho.

late to the party, but c'mon, I think you'd be hard-pressed to even name a classic metal band that was mostly about "screaming catharsis." certainly not black sabbath. that's a more modern definition, if anything.

and, to me, iron maiden is metal and those guys are all about nerdy history lessons and galloping basslines.

trying to think of some of the crap stuff i listened to as a teen that i overrate now cuzza nostalgia. frank chickens? still love kissing the pink way too much. but not when they became ktp! (though to be honest i don't think i ever listened to the ktp album. i'd probably love it!)

i've always had such great taste. that's the problem.

did your folks agree on that?

mmmmm, no. they ignored it all completely.

Did dan like the more extreme metal stuff you were into?

what album got everyone into black metal then? Weakling did it for me.

first 'not-quite' black metal album I got was Cradle of Filth's Cruelty and the Beast. From there, I graduated to Emperor's IX Equilibrium, and then, finally Anthems to the Welkin at Dusk, which I fell in love with.

I didn't get into raw BM until I first listened to Mayhem though.

"what album got everyone into black metal then?"

In The Nightside and then A Blaze In The Northern Sky.

mmmmm In the Nightside Eclipse. I still have this memory of driving earlier than usual to school when the sun was rising, with that album playing in the background. was a perfect fit.

prob battles in the north

I much prefer Anthems To The Welkin At Dusk than Nightside.

Still the Emperor "best of" has literally all their best tracks on there. I rarely listen to anything else by them.

I heard Under the Sign of the Black Mark when I was younger, but black metal never caught my ear until much later, and the album was Transilvanian Hunger, so I guess that one.

cad -- awesome pick, not as many people in my circle talk about Battles in the North but I love that one.

also still wish I could find my copy of At the Heart of Winter, prolly just gonna d/l it.

also early 'black metal' like the first few Bathory albums still gives me nerd boners....no pretense, just RAWK

Under The Sign Of The Black Mark is brilliant too.

I can't remember what first got me into BM. A lot fo my friends played me stuff, but I was only peripherally aware of what bands were playing. Maybe Bal Sagoth??

Venom for me.

i'm young—pretty sure the first thing i heard and really liked was xasthur's subliminal genocide. i picked it up for the MBV comparisons... i know, i know... ~sigh~