When did Doom Metal/Black Metal and the like become "hip" and why?

I thought this revive was gonna be about this
http://blackmetaltheory.blogspot.com/

http://www.publicassemblynyc.com/events/view/1148

― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Friday, 11 December 2009 01:12 (16 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

haha... what the fuck. i guess black metal's over.

― audacity, hubris, overweening pride! (GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ), Friday, 11 December 2009 04:32 (13 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Shit, that looks great, I'd go!

― twice boiled cabbage is death, Friday, 11 December 2009 05:26 (12 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Yeah, I'd go, it looks interesting.

― A. Begrand, Friday, 11 December 2009 05:28 (12 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

The guys over at DFFD were so pissed off with hipsters ruining BM that they turned the thread into a 10 page discussion of NWA and Public Enemy instead. ILX woulda been proud.

― Pfunkboy : The Dronelord vs The Girly Metal Daleks (Herman G. Neuname), Friday, 11 December 2009 15:59 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I think this means us death metal partisans can claim victory now

― a full circle lol (J0hn D.), Friday, 11 December 2009 16:15 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

til next year

― Pfunkboy : The Dronelord vs The Girly Metal Daleks (Herman G. Neuname), Friday, 11 December 2009 16:21 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Remind me again who got their arses kicked in the DM vs BM poll?

― Soukesian, Friday, 11 December 2009 17:10 (37 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

WINNING METAL ISN'T A FUCKIN NUMBERS GAME, SOUKESIAN

― audacity, hubris, overweening pride! (GOTT PUNCH II HAWKWINDZ), Friday, 11 December 2009 17:12 (36 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Scott or j0hn :) will be here in a min to say ilx is full of hipsters so of course BM won the poll

― Pfunkboy : The Dronelord vs The Girly Metal Daleks (Herman G. Neuname), Friday, 11 December 2009 17:41 (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

that's kind of exactly the point - BM won the poll = BM is trendy, of course it did

― a full circle lol (J0hn D.), Friday, 11 December 2009 17:42 (6 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

:)

― Pfunkboy : The Dronelord vs The Girly Metal Daleks (Herman G. Neuname), Friday, 11 December 2009 17:44 (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

iirc most of the DM votes came from US ilxors while BM came from euros.

― Pfunkboy : The Dronelord vs The Girly Metal Daleks (Herman G. Neuname), Friday, 11 December 2009 17:44 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I aim to please xpost

― a full circle lol (J0hn D.), Friday, 11 December 2009 17:45 (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

can re-poll after the wire runs some article about slept-on death metal, it'll get loads of votes then

― a full circle lol (J0hn D.), Friday, 11 December 2009 17:45 (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i know DM was the most commercially successful form of extreme metal in the states in the early 90s, it's basically the bread and butter metal for a lot of people after the thrash generation got old ;), but was it ever actually hip? I dont mean hip as in elite circles of demo tape traders in the late 80s but hip as in actual hipsters like the NY hipster types who are into BM?

― Pfunkboy : The Dronelord vs The Girly Metal Daleks (Herman G. Neuname), Friday, 11 December 2009 17:48 (49 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

actually i might start a separate thread on this.

― Pfunkboy : The Dronelord vs The Girly Metal Daleks (Herman G. Neuname), Friday, 11 December 2009 17:48 (0 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

And why are some sub-genres hip and others aren't?

Or is doom/BM not really hip at all? Does Thurston Moore professing love for BM mean it's hip?

Blame it on Sunno)))?

it was a long time coming imo - from early on indie types were interested in black metal but it used to take a lot of work to actually find out what was what. as soon as the internet democratized information, curious people could become experts overnight, or expert enough to find stuff that suited their tastes. can't really get down w/conflating doom & bm though, I think the doom-among-hipsters thing is a pretty diff. phenomenon

agreed.

i'm so over black metal. me and my friends stayed up all night last night doing duster and vibing off the totally rad buzzing of the radiator in my loft, whatever.

i find a lot of indie types who like bm like doom and drone and come from noise or folk backgrounds. Foxy digitalis and wire readers i guess. Dunno how pitchforkers got into it tho unless p4k writers were reading foxy d and it came from there.

and i repeat this

i know DM was the most commercially successful form of extreme metal in the states in the early 90s, it's basically the bread and butter metal for a lot of people after the thrash generation got old ;), but was it ever actually hip? I dont mean hip as in elite circles of demo tape traders in the late 80s but hip as in actual hipsters like the NY hipster types who are into BM?

I have a theory. Black metal became hip because the early 90s version of it had a punk rockness to it; it was crude, poorly recorded, 123go stuff. This appeals to the lazy, lo-fi, one-take side of indie rock people. Death metal, on the other hand, is intricate, difficult music, frequently of great precision - it's hard work and sounds like it. This puts off indie rock people, who are drawn to sonic casualness, whether real or feigned.

there's also the gourmand vibe of black metal - "this band from tasmania that's actually only one guy who lives out in the middle of nowhere, records all his stuff onto an old tascam, no-one's ever met him -- his early tapes are the most incredible thing ever!!" - that agrees nicely with the indie need for exclusivity, access to secrets, a feeling of being informed. whereas death metal, I mean, let's be honest indie types, a lot of those death metal dudes are the guys who used to beat the shit out of us in high school, and it's weird to see dudes like that making music, which for indie/gettin-our-asses-kicked kinda dudes is coded as a realm to which we have/had access but our tormentors do/did not.

at a certain point i think we just have to accept that in the internet era all kinds of ppl like all kinds of shit and quit worrying about "hipsters" or whoever invading whatever musical clubhouses we've built for ourselves.

what about those of us who fell for black metal because of the awesome song-structures, performances and sonics

i.e. helg3son bringing law AS USUAL

BM is for fucking conformists

As an indie/punk type I can agree with some of what unperson's saying, particularly this part "the early 90s version of it had a punk rockness to it; it was crude, poorly recorded, 123go stuff.". What initially attracted me more to black metal than death was definitely the raw nasty distorted sounds of the classic stuff. I do like some death metal but it tends to be the more dissonant or grind-y stuff, I'm not really into technical death metal.

ditto death metal tbh, some of that stuff is about to open like the fourth wall to me, also unperson there is such a thing as intricate BM *drops DHG and DSO like elephant-bombs in the hizzouse*

"This puts off indie rock people, who are drawn to sonic casualness, whether real or feigned."

That sounds about right. Pforkers generally despise or are indifferent of the likes of Mastodon, Opeth, Mars Volta, Gojira, anything that touches on death or prog. OTH, Nachtmystium, which has strong prog influences, seems to be an exception due to being black metal, hence the glowing 8.9 rating. Not sure if Enslaved would get a similar free pass if they didn't simply ignore them.

To be fair, plenty of other non-indie types have an aversion to anything that's too "technical," like a friend of mine who now listens mainly to power and black metal.

i mean are you equating hipsters with people that like "indie rock"?

what about those of us who fell for black metal because of the awesome song-structures, performances and sonics

yeah but LJ unless I remember wrong you were super interested in BM before you knew anything about the song structures and stuff - the sheen of it was intriguing to you. I can get down with that! but I think it's a big part of how black metal has become this indie kid playground: there's a sort of narrative attraction + some similar sonic concerns. and M@tt I think "people just like what they like" - cool, if the whole subject of how people become interested in stuff & what drives them, motivates them to be interested in this & not that is boring to you, hey awesome! for some of us it's an interesting subject ok?

Why is this question being asked now? Doom metal/black metal isn't hip anymore.

it's all about neil young now

i find the aesthetics of all extreme music to be highly interesting; BM is perhaps more accessible and 'poetic' in its isolationist mountain-scaling spirit-of-wolf sonic grandeur (and BM has probably of all the metals embraced the openly avant-garde or ambient sides of music most freely) but DM's insane clusterfuck broth is something i eventually aim to wrap my head around

btw as we're namedropping the song 'steg' on that last trelldom album has come on my ipod shuffle loads recently and guess what it may be trad-BM and it may play out the same riff for 7 minutes before changing but guess what it's feckin' awesome

I mean there's a distinction to be made between "indie kid" and "hipster".

also i wouldn't call myself an indie kid! i may be deluded but i wouldn't call myself an indie kid.

I got into metal after getting into free jazz.

When I listen to Death Metal, I feel like I'm engaging more often with a sonic tradition that arose from the earth primordial to send early man into spiritual convulsions around his campfire.

I don't know too much black metal, but it only rarely has done anything like that for me. Black metal often seems to come from the same place as open mic nights and burlesque shows. At the moment, I can't why I feel this way.

"I can't explain". (It will require further listening and thought)

Renfests and shit, you know?

LJ is an indie almost adult

at a certain point i think we just have to accept that in the internet era all kinds of ppl like all kinds of shit and quit worrying about "hipsters" or whoever invading whatever musical clubhouses we've built for ourselves.

― eight woofers in the trunk sb'n down the block (M@tt He1ges0n),

yes but im not worried about hipsters invading clubhouses (j0hn and co think im invading their clubhouse anyway lol) im just asking why do people think like this.

because people like clubhouses?

and its not just doom/drone/BM it's for any subgenre that's become hip and why haven't others become hip.
But obviously hip is subjective. These genres are hip in some circles and not others. Dragonforce and girly goth metal like Nightwish are hip amongst some people but probably not with critics so much.

oh and i see j0hn replied on the old thread so I shall repost his answer here

i know DM was the most commercially successful form of extreme metal in the states in the early 90s, it's basically the bread and butter metal for a lot of people after the thrash generation got old ;), but was it ever actually hip? I dont mean hip as in elite circles of demo tape traders in the late 80s but hip as in actual hipsters like the NY hipster types who are into BM?

well, famously, Peel was into grind. thurston moore and some others IIRC were namechecking DM a little, I think moore's been pretty interested in "extreme" metal from pretty early on. and some of these death metal guitarists are total tone merchants, it's one of the reasons I'm a death metal partisan - there's plenty of black metal guitarists who get amazing tone of course but there's also the sort of autopilot Boss distortion into Boss delay black metal sound that just bores me to tears - and there've always been some from-hipper-circles ppl goin "seven churches is fucking amazing." but anyway yeah - I mean, getting "hip" used to take a lot more digging, but within some hip circles I think there were plenty of artsy dudes seeking out Eaten Back to Life and Mental Funeral and sarcofago or even krisiun and so on.

― a full circle lol (J0hn D.), Friday, 11 December 2009 17:55 (53 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

hah, xpost re: grind

I have a theory. Black metal became hip because the early 90s version of it had a punk rockness to it; it was crude, poorly recorded, 123go stuff. This appeals to the lazy, lo-fi, one-take side of indie rock people. Death metal, on the other hand, is intricate, difficult music, frequently of great precision - it's hard work and sounds like it. This puts off indie rock people, who are drawn to sonic casualness, whether real or feigned.

― neither good nor bad, just a kid like you (unperson), Friday, December 11, 2009 6:05 PM (44 minutes ago) Bookmark

for the most part, yeah. and I'd say this goes for grind too. critical acceptance, crossover appeal with noize dudes and punx/indie folks for the exact same reasons.

but what's weird is that there's also plenty of crude death metal that doesn't get written about. something like autopsy hits a lot of the same buttons, imo.

maybe because this isn't really the death metal norm? (i.e. there's nobody at darkthrone's level that sounds as punk they do in the death metal world)

...just waiting for someone to come back at me with, "but obituary are punk as fuck!"

and in a way, yeah they are. but you know what I mean.

...I hope?

xpost

j0hn & pfunkboy yeah it's a good discussion, it's more i have a reaction to the word "hipster" anymore...

i mean...jeez though...this goes back a ways too, though...extremer metal and punk have been basically merged since, jesus, like 85-86 in a lot of ways?

so if you think indie rock is an extension of punk, and at least "classic" indie was in the U.S., then isn't this just more of the same?

i dunno - it seems like it isn't that much of a leap from liking Black Flag and hardcore or punk with the sped-up polka beat to liking death metal.

maybe we're just too old?

xpost:

yes. but the leap to liking darkthrone must be that much easier then, right?

when i was a kid i couldn't even barely understand the difference between why CoC and DRI was "punk" and like Exodus or Kreator was "metal" or whatever

xp - i'm pretty much an amateur/dilettante in a way when it comes to this - which could very well place me in the "hipster" category, though I'm too old, I think, to have ever been an "indie kid" - but stuff like Darkthrone and Immortal to me sound quite similar to Death Metal only with different vocal styles and production values, and I like them in the same way.

For all the leaps from punk to metal and vice versa its funny how metalcore has never been hip. It might be a commercially successful subgenre but it never crossed over as hip to the general public (yeah i know that's a different sort of hip ) like nu-metal did. In the way that disco was huge and seen as naff by loads,hated by critics, but really hip amongst the general public.
Though I am glad metalcore never got as big as nu-metal as its fucking awful mostly.

general public and "hip" are kind of in opposition though.

but stuff can become hip amonst the mass buying general public. Like disco was like I said. I suppose hip and hipster are separate.

linedancing was hip amongst a huge part of the general public and not just the usa either!

Aside appros of nothing:

As an outsider, I'm amused by the amount of genre hair-splitting that goes on among metal fans. Is this funeral doom metal, or drone doom metal? Yuck, you got your brutal death metal in my progressive death metal. The black metal of my youth was so much more fun than this depressive black metal. Screw your factions, lets make blackened death metal. No, you!

How much simpler it all was in the days of mods vs. rockers.

is there really a difference between "hip" and "latest fad" or "flavour of the month"?

i thought we were talking about hipsters and not the general public.

xxpost:

yeah, metal is a lot like electronic music in that respect.

Yuck, you got your brutal death metal in my progressive death metal.

Led Zep took the sensuality of blues songs by Muddy Waters & howlin' Wolf & reduced it essentially to objectification & rape

\[citation needed]

stupid bbcode

This adds a layer of irony on top of the fact that Led Zep took the sensuality of blues songs by Muddy Waters & howlin' Wolf & reduced it essentially to objectification & rape, going even farther than Jagger had a few years earlier.

hahaha this is complete bullshit

don't think howlin wolf is particular sensual but maybe that's just me

improvspirit should probably explain his comments

i'd just as soon s/he didn't but to each his own i guess

YOB is totally not hip, and yet they seem to be the runaway favorite at Scion metal fest and Roadburn. And the NYTimes gushes about them.

Who needs "hip" if you got "quality"?

I do!

Doesn't being hip usually cancel out some of the best elements of any metal band? I dunno... I've been feeling backlashes against "hip" from the depths of the metal scene anyway. I think there's a mutual resistance and though I try to fight the good fight on a daily basis, it does wear me out...

oh, I'm being facetious. My general experience has been that "hipster metal" has done more to bring hipsters into the metal fold than to dilute metal's inherent awesomeness.

I do think the influence of Sunn0))) has been generally positive. I'm a community-minded guy that welcomes newbs with open arms.

And the NYTimes gushes about them.

YOB.

Long proven fact: Praise of such acts in places like the NY Times isn't quite worth the price of the paer it's printed on. You can use it in your press sheets. It doesn't sell records. The 'arts section reader'
audience of the NY Times receives it as mildly interesting tales of exotic bugs. Been that way for decades. Wrong venue. YOB's hardcore audience, or potential audience, is not influenced by such as the NY Times. NY Times critic given latitude to write about whatever he or she feels like as long, sometimes as long as it seems edgy.

This isn't a knock on YOB. It's more of a comment on the reality of appraisal of same at big mainstream venues like the NY Times, the WaPost, the LATimes, etc. A couple of my friends who don't ever get motivated to buy such music but who read the Times daily will see it. They may say, "That's interesting."

NY Times comment on acts like YOB is more for the benefit of other working rock critics
publishing in name venues.

They signal each other on what they're listening to a little when not divining the
mainstream sales tea leaves for the pop music zeitgeist narrative of the week.

That's the message.

The 'arts section reader' audience of the NY Times receives it as mildly interesting tales of exotic bugs.

Love this, will steal it.

Somebody asked for a citation above, and I can provide one for my outlandish bullshit from 5/17. SOme of it was more-or-less paraphrased from Charles Shaar Murray's book Crosstown Traffic. He cites a particular Muddy Waters tune, the name of which escapes me right now, and its playful seductive tone. This is then compared to 'Whole Lotta Love' and its vision of using a lady to masturbate into because she should just be glad she's there. Murray may have overstated things; I may have too, but it isn't bullshit. Not because I can cite a source for some of the ideas [I'm quite capable of dreaming up my own psycho horsecrap, thanks :-)], but because it is indicative of an ingredient in the ever-changing music timeline.

Simon Reynolds/Joy Press wrote of 'Whole Lotta Love' as 'thermonuclear gang rape'. I don't really agree but the phrase stuck with me and still makes me LOL in its overstatement.

LOL yeah I think I read that somewhere too, maybe even quoted in Murray's book. It is top-notch hyperbole.

isis are gone

morelike bore one out amirite?

j/k I gots nuffin against them really

So yeah... The Muddy Waters song mentioned in the Murray book was 'I Need Love' from 1963. That's fairly obvious & I'm not sure why I couldn't think of it. 'Twas obviously nicked for 'Whole Lotta Love.'

"sensuality":
http://recessedfilter.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/waters.jpg
You've got yearnin' and I got burnin'
Baby you look so sweet and cunning
Baby way down inside, woman you need love
Woman you need love, you've got to have some love
I'm gonna give you some love, I know you need love
You just gotta have love, you make me feel so good
You make me feel all right, you're so nice, you're so nice
You're frettin', and I'm petting
A lot of good things you ain't getting
Baby, way down inside, you need love
You need to be hugged and squeezed real tight,
by the light of the moon on some summer night
You need love and kissing too,
all these things are good for you
I ain't foolin' you need schoolin'
Baby you know you need coolin'
Baby, way down inside, woman you need love

"objectification and rape":
http://rockonhome.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/robert_plant2.jpg
You need coolin', baby, I'm not foolin',
I'm gonna send you back to schoolin',
Way down inside honey, you need it,
I'm gonna give you my love,
I'm gonna give you my love.
Wanna Whole Lotta Love (X4)
You've been learnin', baby, I bean learnin',
All them good times, baby, baby, I've been yearnin',
Way, way down inside honey, you need it,
I'm gonna give you my love... I'm gonna give you my love.
Wanna Whole Lotta Love (X4)
You've been coolin', baby, I've been droolin',
All the good times I've been misusin',
Way, way down inside, I'm gonna give you my love,
I'm gonna give you every inch of my love,
Gonna give you my love.
Wanna Whole Lotta Love (X4)
Way down inside, woman, You need, love.
Shake for me, girl. I wanna be your backdoor man.
Keep it coolin', baby.

?

lol

Ecuador, you missed a verse:

You need coolin', baby, I'm not foolin',
I'm gonna masturbate into you,
Way down inside honey, you should just be glad your here,

http://www.viceland.com/blogs/en/2010/03/08/not-fit-to-print-transcendental-metal/

We present it to you in its entirety as a stark warning of what happens when you approach the most inherently comical form of metal with absolutely no sense of humor or fun.

Listen to the Muddy song. Don't read it.

we missed the black metal symposium ii
http://blackmetaltheory.blogspot.com/2010/06/black-metal-theory-symposium-ii.html

markers is hosting the 3rd one in 2011 with Metallica playing their new Arena BM album ... And Bandwagons For All in full

oh man so many good times in this thread

contenderizer's slim moon post & slim moon posting here - thanks, thread!

hah, i forgot all about that.

I've heard stories about Prof Scott Wilson. I'm confident that guy is True Metal.

also i wouldn't call myself an indie kid! i may be deluded but i wouldn't call myself an indie kid.

― 102. LJ: British. 5. (acoleuthic),

lol

markers is hosting the 3rd one in 2011 with Metallica playing their new Arena BM album ... And Bandwagons For All in full

― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Saturday, September 18, 2010 8:06 PM (50 minutes ago)

irl smile @ this

All metal has become hip now. I'm convinced of this. Everywhere I go I see metal people.

Nate, it's just you; you have the 666th Sense.

Nate lives in a metal club.

with King Diamond and Joey DeMaio

demo tape limited to 3

jyou have the 666th Sense

irl

[loling implied]

when does the unhip get added to the title?

when they figure out how to give you mod powers on any ilm thread with "metal" in the title ;)

there is probably a better thread to bump than this one but w/e this is the best thing ever http://scrapyardmagazine.blogspot.co.uk/2015/03/h-creates-bizarre-marketing-scheme-to.html

Monday, March 23, 2015
H&M Creates Bizarre Marketing Scheme to Sell Punk and Metal Inspired Threads
I spend a lot of time on Twitter, and while much of it fades into the background, this caught my attention.

Apparently, H&M hired a team of people to make metal music, metal logos, band histories and a distro AND post online about the legitimacy of said music. Why? To sell a new line of metal and punk inspired clothes, of course.

But it wasn't enough just to doodle some made up band logos and slap them on some pants. No no, H&M is going whole hog. They created a fake label page that happens to sell all of these bands! Here's the facebook page for "Strong Scene Productions." And their website! Yes, it's supposed to look like that. All of this was created super recently too!

If that wasn't weird enough, there's a bunch of corporate sponsored accounts on Reddit saying that these bands are TOTALLY REAL. While it's not uncommon for major corporations to create accounts on social media to sell stuff, H&Ms dedication seems oddly bizarre and specific.

THEY PAID. H&M PAID to have a song called "Vaginal's Juice Dripping into Cadaverous." By a band called Yvaeh (subtle), a "Malaysian" band. It's like they took a page from Ghost Bath. Only, WEIRDER. This YouTube account was made yesterday, by the way. They PAID to invent fake NSBM bands, LANY and The One. (Although The One is really a band, but no idea if this is the same band or if they're NSBM/Nationalists.) Regardless of everything else weird about this, it is definitely BAD MARKETING tocreat fake racist bands. Bad, H&M. Bad.

I'm not one to be all "METAL SHOULD STAY UNDERGROUND, POSERS!" but I do wonder why H&M didn't pay actual bands. Or just invent fake logos without the elaborate backstory.

the Facebook page is just next level

Wow. The guys behind the campaign aren't idiots though, and clearly know their stuff. Pretty sure H&M never expected to be paying for a mocked-up Xerox demo cover with a gun being inserted into a woman.

Right... so this was an art project of fake bands based on the patches on H&M clothing but nothing actually to do with H&M? Seems like a lot of effort to go to, but it got publicity because of it so worked, I guess. Website is down.

prefer the idea of H&M doing it but that's good too

Mingering Metal Mike

Are you on drugs? We love H&M!

http://youtu.be/0z7sRasK9tM

Some rumours it's one of the guys from Moonsorrow.

http://exclaim.ca/music/article/you_can_finally_own_action_figures_of_sleeps_dopesmoker_dudes