rank the songs on STICKY FINGERS

5. Moonlight Mile
6. Sister Morphine

7. Brown Sugar
8. You Gotta Move
9. Bitch

1. Can't You Hear Me Knocking
2. Sway
3. Wild Horses
4. Dead Flowers
5. Moonlight Mile
6. Brown Sugar
7. Bitch
8. Sister Morphine
9. I Got the Blues
10. You Gotta Move

others

1. Wild Horses
2. Sway
3. Moonlight Mile
4. Dead Flowers
5. Brown Sugar
6. Can't You Hear Me Knocking
7. You Gotta Move
8. Bitch
9. I Got The Blues
10. Sister Morphine

1. Sway
2. Wild Horses
3. Dead Flowers
4. Can't You Hear Me Knocking
5. I Got The Blues

6. Moonlight Mile
7. Sister Morphine

8. Brown Sugar
9. You Gotta Move
10. Bitch

I forget if Brown Sugar was in my POX. Needless to say, it wouldn't be there now.

10. i got the blues

Honestly, though, there's not a bad, mediocre, or even "kinda good" song on that album, and they're all pretty damned awesome.

1.Sway
2...Knocking
3.Dead Flowers
4.Brown Sugar
5.Moonlight Mile
6.Wild Horses
7.Bitch
8.Sister Morphine
9.You Gotta Move
10.I Got The Blues

Me too. It's a great track.

10th best song on Sticky Fingers >>>>>>>>>> 99.999% rest of shit ever recorded.

1. Keith joining Mick on the last verse of "Brown Sugar"
2. The strings at the end of "Sway"
3. The delicate 3-guitar intro to "Wild Horses"
4. Hearing Mick yell "Hey" down in the mix at the beginning of the jam part of "CYHMK"
5. The drums in "You Gotta Move"
6. The horn riff on "Bitch"
7. The emotional build-up in the last verse of "I Got the Blues"
8. Ry Cooder's slide solo on "Sister Morphine"
9. The "with a needle and a spoon" line in "Dead Flowers"
10. "YEAHHH...I'M COMING HOME" at the end of "Moonlight Mile"

As posted in the US Tour announcement today on FB:

The tour will also coincide with the Rolling Stones re-release of Sticky Fingers on May 26 in North America, and May 25 in the rest of the world, by Universal Music. Sticky Fingers, one of the most revered albums from the Rolling Stones, is set to enthrall a new generation of fans in 2015. The 1971 classic features timeless tracks such as ‘Brown Sugar,’ ‘Wild Horses,’ ‘Bitch’ and ‘Dead Flowers’. Sticky Fingers 2015, with its iconic zip cover, will be unveiled in a variety of formats. The deluxe editions include a generous selection of previously unreleased Stones studio outtakes from the Sticky Fingers sessions and stunning live performances from that time. These sought after tracks have never been available until this release.
Recorded in Muscle Shoals, Alabama and Olympic Studios in London, and produced by regular confidant Jimmy Miller, Sticky Fingers was released just before the Stones became tax exiles in the south of France, leaving Britain after a sensational farewell tour. It also featured some of the most ground breaking design in rock history, with its famous working zip on the front cover and artwork by Andy Warhol.

Having just attended last night's glorified DVD projection of Led Zep concert footage ('Fathom' theater 'events' ... of course Peter Grant era branding company was called 'Superhype' - indeed!), which seemingly was out just to promote the 40th anniversary 'Super Deluxe' Physical Graffiti box set, color me surprised.

Calling it a Zip Code Tour because the cover of yr album 40 yrs ago had a zipper on it is some cold-blooded laziness, even for the Stones.

Dead Flowers
Sway
Wild horses
Moonlight mile
Can you hear me knocking?
Bitch
I got the blues
Brown sugar

You gotta move

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrsToLa3XEo

I refuse to put You Gotta Move last for anything!

Jagger discusses the composition and recording of "Moonlight Mile" at length:

http://www.wsj.com/articles/mick-jagger-and-moonlight-mile-1432735648

oh man I love Dead Flowers so much - where is that version from? doesn't quite have the laid back swing of the official version. I've always liked to think of it as future old rich asshole Jagger singing to young junkie asshole Jagger

I believe that "Dead Flowers" is a live in the studio run through-- the official lit is calling it "The Byrd's Version" because Taylor is playing a 12-string or something.

Wow, in a defiant turn against the tide, Target's exclusive edition of the CD earns its exclusivity by including a redemption code for a VINYL copy of the O.G. album 'to be delivered to your own door'.

oh my god this album is so good.

so, i dunno. maybe something like:

Sway
Moonlight Mile
Wild Horses*
Bitch
Dead Flowers
Can’t You Hear Me Knocking
Brown Sugar
You Gotta Move
I Got the Blues
Sister Morphine

*i might prefer gram parsons’s version, actually, but you can’t fuck with this

alt version of Dead Flowers upthread is interesting. Guitars are out of tune and vocals are flat, and Jagger's southern affectations are more conspicuous and excruciating than ever, but somehow this still rules

Wild Horses
Can't You Hear Me Knocking
Dead Flowers
Sway
Moonlight Mile
Brown Sugar
Bitch
Sister Morphine
You Gotta Move
I Got The Blues

Rolling Stones 1968-1972 is the most unfuckwithable run in music history

Sway
Moonlight Mile
Brown Sugar
Dead Flowers
Can't You Hear Me Knocking
Wild Horses
Bitch
You Gotta Move
I Got the Blues
Sister Morphine

Ha, same top two and bottom three as amateurist's

Rolling Stones 1968-1972 is the most unfuckwithable run in music history

I love the stones and have no problem with hyperboles but even without going very far from their times and genre, Stevie Wonder's 72-76 is arguably even more unfuckwithable !

Rolling Stones 1968-1972 is the most unfuckwithable run in music history

Music does not get better.

it just gets sick and dies

Or in the Stones case, it just gets weaker

Sway
Moonlight Mile
Wild Horses
Dead Flowers
Cant You Hear Me Knocking
Bitch
Brown Sugar
Sister Morphine
I Got The Blues
You Gotta Move

wanted to just list Sway over and over tbh

i mean all the songs are great but Sway

jesus

any of these:
moonlight mile
can't you hear me knocking
sway

followed by this:
you gotta move

then any of these:
wild horses
brown sugar
dead flowers

then these:
i got the blues
bitch
sister morphine

bitch is a jam tho! the horns slay me

they're all jams! my bottom three, anybody's bottom three, slay most other band's careers.

This is the first time in a long time that I've put on a deluxe reissue and been just blown away by the album itself, to the point where I've put off listening to the bonus stuff. Usually it's the other way around.

Can't You Hear Me Knocking at the top, Wild Horses at the bottom only because I've heard it too many times. And yeah, at the moment I'm thinking this might be the best rock and roll album ever made.

three least favorite: blues, morphine, wild horses

substitute "...Knocking" and yeah

i dig knocking! replace which one?

Replace "Knocking' with "Sway."

replace everything with sway

I wish the outtakes on the new edition were better. It seems they put the best versions on the original album. (Imagine that!)

wild horses just gets me, i've heard it so many times but it's so beautiful - harmony chorus cannot be fucked with

also ~keef~ high harmony <3

you can hear Keith's voice clearly on the outtake of Brown Sugar with Clapton. Probably the best moments of the track.

spoilers man, i'm still stuck on disc 1 lol

keef on any harmony pretty much gives me life though, love him

fuck

i got the blues would be a top 3 song on another album but SF is such a monster it ends up second last on my list

how can that be

also i just redeemed for my vinyl sticky fingers

i have no working turntable rn but hey

salivate like a Pavlov dog

proposal: a group time travel excursion back to the roundhouse 71

i want to see them in concert once in my life but i also want to go back and see them like this

fuck

Veg, have you ever seen Ladies and Gentlemen, The Rolling Stones? Obviously not the same experience, but it's the same lineup (Stones + Hopkins, Keys & Price) live in a big hall in Texas on the Exile tour. Very cool.

i have!! <3 it

i want to go there too

This is due soon. Seems a bit on the short side (the CD is an e.p. fer fuck sakes), but hey more live '71 Stones.

i've watched some youtubes clips of this show, fierce as fuck
can't wait to see the whole thing

i think wild horses is maybe the only stones song that's ever made me tear up. not every time i hear it or anything, but it's definitely kind of an anomaly in their catalog.

mick's delivery sells it so hard. even the acoustic version on the bonus disc made me think, like...there could be zero music & i think it would still get me

yeah that is def one of his all-time greatest vocal performances. i don't think any other singer in the world could put it across quite the way mick does.

The account about how they cut it in True Adventures of... is--like the rest of the book--amazing. Richards pulling the chorus out and Jagger adding lyrics on the last day in Muscle Shoals simply because they had the time and inclination to cut "one more song"...Jim Dickinson being drafted to play piano because simply he was there, and then being mad about having to settle for a tack piano because the house grand wasn't in tune with the band.

If I remember correctly, Keith doesn't play on "sway", does he ?
Nowadays, my favourite track would be "knocking" or "dead flowers" but "Brown sugar" and "horses" are still amazing!
The only one I never liked is "you gotta move".

I think Keith plays on Sway. It's him in open G tuning and Taylor in standard tuning. You can tell Keith's part by the way he plays the root chord, F, way up on the 10th fret. Taylor adds the sus2 on the Bb when Jagger sings "Fiiiind."

The song features a bottleneck slide guitar solo towards the middle of the song and a dramatic outro solo performed by Taylor. Rhythm guitar performed by Jagger was his first electric guitar performance on an album. The strings on the piece were arranged by Paul Buckmaster, who also worked on other songs from Sticky Fingers. Richards added his backing vocals but provided no guitar to the track

Oh wow! I stand corrected.

It's an insular little advance, but Keith learning the open G tuning (from Ry Cooder, right?) was like the apple falling on Newton. So much of the greatness of this Stones run is due directly to open G (and the songs, of course). As a guitarist, there is little less fun than tuning into G and learning, like, 20 Stones tunes that are stupidly easy, but only in that tuning (and sometimes with a capo, too). I can only wonder what it was like at the time, or even in the '80s, when you were an aspiring guitarist trying to learn these not terribly difficult songs, and wondering why you never sound like Keith. "Jumpin Jack Flash," for example, as recorded, is maybe ... open E? Regardless, it's a mess of guitars and tunings, which is why even the Stones never played it the way the way they recorded it.

Hey, since we're talking about this era in general, too, anyone else notice a connection between "You Can't Always Get What You Want" and the Velvet Underground. Was Mick tuned in to the VU? Because it's a song about copping drugs that uses essentially the same repeating chords as "Heroin," iirc.

To this day, like in that Rolling Stone interview re "Moonlight Mile" published a couple weeks ago, Jagger sounds uncharacteristically wistful about the Taylor years. Note this response in 1995:

What about the contribution of Mick Taylor to the band in these years?

A: I think he had a big contribution. He made it very musical. He was a very fluent, melodic player, which we never had, and we don't have now. Neither Keith nor [Ronnie Wood] plays that kind of style. It was very good for me working with him. Charlie and I were talking about this the other day, because we could sit down – I could sit down – with Mick Taylor, and he would play very fluid lines against my vocals. He was exciting, and he was very pretty, and it gave me something to follow, to bang off. Some people think that's the best version of the band that existed.

What do you think?

A: They're all interesting periods. They're all different. I obviously can't say if I think Mick Taylor was the best, because it sort of trashes the period the band is in now.

He can't bring himself to admit his true feelings, although, also out of character, he admits that Taylor wrote the music for "Moonlight Mile" (and got no credit).

Yes. It was actually Stray Cat Blues that was a nick off Heroin, though.

xp Josh

Same '95 interview:

A: We made records with just Mick Taylor, which are very good and everyone loves, where Keith wasn't there for whatever reasons.

Which ones?

A: People don't know that Keith wasn't there making it. All the stuff like "Moonlight Mile," "Sway." These tracks are a bit obscure, but they are liked by people that like the Rolling Stones. It's me and [Mick] playing off each other – another feeling completely, because he's following my vocal lines and then extemporizing on them during the solos.

Sway
Moonlight Mile
Wild Horses
Bitch
Can't You Hear Me Knocking
Sister Morphine
Brown Sugar
You Gotta Move
Dead Flowers
I Got the Blues

My favourite Stones album, without a doubt.

Took me forever to recognize "Dead Flowers" as a drug reference. Ever passive aggressive, interesting to note the number of Jagger lyrics this era calling out folks for heroin use. "You Can't Always Get What You Want," "Dead Flowers" (mocking Gram Parsons?), "Monkey Man" ...

Taylor wrote Midnight Mile too? Now I know that one is in open G, which would point to Keith. On the other hand it is very melodic, which would point to Taylor...dang

"Sway" has the best drumming on any Stones song. Which is to say, some of the best drumming on any song.

from the April 1989 issue of Spin's "Great Moments in Recording Studio History":

In the middle of the Rolling Stones' "Brown Sugar" session, piano player Ian Stewart stopped things dead, and told Charlie Watts that his tom-toms were out of tune with the bass guitar.

"I never tune my drums," Watts told him blankly, and they started playing again. But a bit later, Stewart stopped everyone again and looked at Watts.

"What do you mean you never tune your drums?"

"Why tune something I'm just gonna go and beat the shit out of?" Watts answered. "I'll hit them for a while and then they'll be in tune again."

I just listened to the Clapton take of Brown Sugar...there's no way those are Jagger vocals from the period. He did this too on the Exile outtakes.

and on a couple of the Some Girls outtakes. It's glaringly obvious. Way too many singers do this late-career overdubbing thing (Springsteen, Jagger, Gabriel, Daltrey) and it's never a good idea.

I thought Jagger did a good job on Plundered My Soul from Exile. Salvaged the song for me at least

No excuse for not tuning drums though Charlie, sorry

yeah, Plundered My Soul is the only one that remotely works for me

Naw -- the Some Girls outtakes included in 2011 ("Claudette," my beloved ""Do You Think I Really Care?" in particular) are as good as anything on the album

^^Co-Sign. Much of the new/old Some Girls stuff was choice. I like to joke that it was the best Stones since Some Girls, but ya know...

well yeah

Weren't you at the coke convention back in 1965?

Not that I can afford either at the moment, but my local record shop had both the standard vinyl reissue and the double vinyl with the bonus tracks, for a difference of about $7. I don't usually care about bonus tracks, particularly when they are just different versions of songs I already know, but only the double vinyl has an actual zipper on the album cover. I'm torn.

YOU ARE TORN AND FRAYED

i have a nice original copy at the store right now. sounds awesome.

Listening party

xp Yeah buy an original for ten bucks, it'll sound great and have a zipper.

i'm trying to remember the moment when the stones ceased to be an enjoyable classic rock band that i had listened to since i was a little kid and always liked singing along to and became some sort of SUPER GENIUS musical force where i would just marvel at how they made albums and songs. i can't remember the moment. it might have been when exile finally clicked for me. which was late in life. the same thing happened to me with beatles of course. childhood faves all of sudden become: omg, how and why did they do that nobody did that it's like majik! stones had same majik. it's still a mystery to me. they all seem like pretty normal people with normal interests. but nobody does that shit today. not in the rock world that's for sure. or in a lot of other worlds.

You could argue that at no point has Keith been the best guitarist in the Rolling Stones

xpost scott otm

Seconding that xpost, I had a long period where I just thought I was sick of them as a kid, though, because of CLASSIC ROCK RADIO. Discovering their albums, man... well I don't wanna use the word "revelatory" but.

i was into the stones as a teen but only cursorily - it wasnt til i hung out with 30-something postgrads after college that i learned exile even existed & started on the album freakdom that i now live in

btw i bought a sticky fingers tshirt today
full rabbithole

I have my mom to thank for my introduction. I remember parties where she would play Tattoo You. All the albums were in the house.

Don't wanna be your slave

fwiw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MchWI3sLUQo

^^Leon Russell on pianer

Interesting to learn that the Flying Burrito Bros. version was released first! That's sort of like learning Johnny Cash recorded "The Gambler" first, but Kenny's version beat his to the store.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8dfR7vZwC8

The only time I've ever been impressed by the drumming on a Stones record is those neat little switches between rhythms on 'Midnight Rambler' - I've never rated Watts as a drummer, it has to be said. Him and Nick Mason.

Charlie swings on Memo From Turner

"Tumbling Dice"!

xpost

idk, I always felt like Charlie was great bcz he has zero flash and he's suuuper tight, like a metronome. Dude can slot in on almost any style and most ppl dont even notice. Idk, I think ppl rate drumming weirdly. god forbid he keep the beat for 40 fkn years, yknow?

"Tumbling Dice" a tough one, because Jimmy Miller played on that, at least a little.

Get Off of My Cloud is some great Charlie. Actually, lots of early Stones has some great Charlie. Once Keith locks into his riff-machine open-G mode, Charlie sort of grooves along like a solid wind-up monkey.

Charlie's an incredible drummer wtf

i have grown to love charlie over the years. i took him for granted for a long time.

Love Charlie but would never call him a metronome

stones def would have been better off wiv i dunno neil peart

lest we forget: "I Love The Look On Charlie's Face" - A Visual Catalog of Charlie Watts

Charlie defines their sound as much as (or arguably more than) any Stone. And they know it. After Wyman left, the choice of bassist was left completely up to Charlie -- no one else in the band had any say. If Charlie and the bassist couldn't lock in together, everything would've been thrown off.

"Tumbling Dice" a tough one, because Jimmy Miller played on that, at least a little.

(iirc) According to Andy Johns, Charlie couldn't nail the breakdown leading into the coda (the stuff under the "You got to roll me!" part), so Miller filled in, and that's him for the rest of the song.

But yeah, Charlie rules. That kick-tom tom pattern under the verses of "Brown Sugar" is what really makes the song.

Yeah it's like beyond debate really, doesn't matter, Charlie was the drummer the Rolling Stones needed

While we're at it, Bill Wyman a massively underrated bassist.

Love Charlie but would never call him a metronome

Oh, no, not at all (see: all the times the Stones songs end up twice as fast as they began). But '70s on, he just started to groove. Fewer fills, etc. Much more of that trick he does, where he never hits the snare and the hi-hat at the same time. Which is what largely makes him look like a wind-up monkey.

http://michaelroyfisher.wordpress.com/2013/01/11/allow-me-to-explain-to-you-why-charlie-watts-is-important/

yeah i didnt mean it as a dis or that he's not creative, just reliability idk

i actually read bill wyman's book as a teenage stones obsessive and it is still prob the single most boring book on an inherently exciting subject i have ever read

bill is a fun vacuum

Oh, no, not at all (see: all the times the Stones songs end up twice as fast as they began).

Yeah and it's funny how that's supposed to be "wrong"... Like it seems sort of natural and musical for more rocking parts to pick up or for a song to gather steam

yeah, like classical music doesn't change tempos every few bars

charles mingus, good company to keep

"honky tonk women" best example I can think of acceleration of tempo

Isley Brothers' "Fight The Power" speeds way the hell up. Ditto Melanie's "Lay Down."

I'll take speedups over click-track precision any day.

the funny thing about the stones is that most of the times, live, they're an absolute mess when they start and end a song (I don't know about now, though, I mean in the old footage).
It's like they had never rehearsed these parts and everyone got in and out whenever they feel like it !

(iirc) According to Andy Johns, Charlie couldn't nail the breakdown leading into the coda (the stuff under the "You got to roll me!" part), so Miller filled in, and that's him for the rest of the song.

― Love, Wilco (C. Grisso/McCain), Sunday, 14 June 2015 19:42 (Yesterday) Permalink

He couldn't nail the balls-achingly simple drum pattern to 'Ventilator Blues' without having Bobby Keyes clapping beside him, either. Definitely wouldn't call Watts a metronome, he speeds up and slows down like there's no tomorrow, and his drum fills always sound like they're falling down a flight of stairs.

My fave SF/Stones cover:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzfy7aKB9oo

his drum fills always sound like they're falling down a flight of stairs.

how drum fills should sound imo (as long as they end on the downbeat)

why does the doctor have no face??!?

In an attempt to shock and provoke, I ranked brown sugar too low in this thread. This is the true order:

Dead Flowers
Sway
Wild horses
Moonlight mile
Brown sugar
Can you hear me knocking?
Bitch
I got the blues
.
.
.
.

You gotta move

Sister Morphine after Wild Horses

I like "You Gotta Move"

I understand why it's there, some friction was needed after the groovy second half of can u hear me knocking, but i dont like it

Which is weird bc i like a lot of similar tracks on exile

You Gotta Move is so terrible, treeship otm

"Brown Sugar" is the 2nd worst song on the record.

The live version of YGM they did in the mini-acoustic set on the '69 tour is better

Can't You Hear Me Knocking
Bitch
Brown Sugar
Wild Horses
Sway
Sister Morphine
Dead Flowers
Moonlight Mile
I Got The Blues
You Gotta Moo

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51hkdDAxctL.jpg

You gotta moo
You gotta moo
You gotta moo, chile
You gotta moo

How now, Brown Sugar

Wild Cows-es couldnt drag me awayyyyy

Sticky Udders?

sorry

Knocking / Sway / Sugar (tie)
Moonlight
Bitch
Morphine
Horses
Flowers
Move

Moo-light Mile
I Got The Moo's

is it "that demon-life" or "that demon, life"

Sway solo is so tasty

First time Jagger plays electric rhythm on a track.

played this for my one year old the other day and his mind was blown.

Moonlight Mile is the tune for me that years after having the record grew on me as a favorite. "Oh I'm sleeping under strange, strange skies..."

Paul Buckmaster's strings sound really good on Moonlight Mile too.

"that demon-life"

sway
can’t you hear me knocking
moonlight mile
wild horses
brown sugar
dead flowers
bitch
sister morphine
you gotta move
i got the blues

charlie watts is a fucking awesome drummer

wild horses
sway
dead flowers
moonlight mile
can't you hear me knocking
sister morphine
brown sugar
i got the blues
you gotta move

can't go wrong with any of the first 7 imo. and listening again, i got the blues is a bit better than i remember.

oh, and bitch slots in under brown sugar

sway
brown sugar
moonlight mile
you gotta move
dead flowers
bitch
wild horses
sister morphine
can't you hear me knocking
i got the blues

'Moonlight Mile'
'Sway'
'Brown Sugar'
'Wild Horses'
'Can't You Hear Me Knocking'
'Sister Morphine'
'You Gotta Move'
'Bitch'
'Dead Flowers'
'I Got the Blues'

man none of us really like i got the blues--that organ tone tho!

I had it #5 and I stand by my ranking. If it’s good enough for Solomon Burke it’s good enough for me.

i really like every song on this record

'I Got the Blues' isn't bad, but it's on Sticky Fingers.

yeah i mean i have it 9th, such a great record. their 68-72 period is still the most mind-boggling stretch of musical greatness ever, to my ears.

The love for "Sway" has to be a top 10 favorite thing about ILM for me.

charlie watts is a fucking awesome drummer

― american bradass (BradNelson), Friday, April 19, 2019 1:48 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

As evidenced by the fact that he can't do a unsloppy fill to save his life and his best drumming on record was actually done by Jimmy Miller.

Can't You Hear Me Knocking
Bitch
Brown Sugar
Wild Horses
Sway
Sister Morphine
Dead Flowers
Moonlight Mile
I Got The Blues
You Gotta Moo

― Working night & day, I tried to stay awake... (Turrican),Friday, December 9, 2016 10:33 PM (two years ago)Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I pretty much stand by this ranking. I like 'I Got The Blues' a lot.

who needs fills?

sloppy fills in sloppy songs are the best

"sway" has the best of everything

Fortunately Watts has other songs in which he's excellent and Jimmy Miller is nowhere in sight.

I got the blues is top 3 for me!

Sway
Can't you hear me knocking
I got the blues
Moonlight Mile
You've gotta move
Bitch
Sister Morphine
Brown Sugar
Dead Flowers
Wild Horses

Fortunately Watts has other songs in which he's excellent and Jimmy Miller is nowhere in sight.

― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, April 19, 2019 3:45 PM (eighteen minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

I'll give him 'Midnight Rambler' which is a very good performance - otherwise, for me, the worst of all the "name" '60s drummers.

Ginger Baker is the worst of the "name" 60s drummers

The worst personality, sure, but had no issues with staying in time or drum fills and didn't sound like he'd never seen, let alone played a drumkit before. I'm sure he could have picked up the totally uncomplicated rhythm of 'Ventilator Blues' without having Bobby Keys beside him clapping to keep him in time. He didn't need Jimmy Miller to play cowbell for him to keep him in time either.

I'm sure there's no way that Ginger Baker would have allowed the painful flub on 'I'm Free' (which ruins the track as much as the out of tune bass ruins 'She Smiled Sweetly') to leave the studio either.

Charlie Watts (and Ringo, but more Charlie) definitely the most overrated of the '60s drummers. Mick Avery probably the most underrated. Ginger the most adventurous, but that came after Cream.

I do think it is interesting that the Stones sound that everybody can recognize really didn't coalesce until the '70s. And the wind-up monkey harlie style that everybody recognizes probably not till the mid- to late 70s.

I've never actually thought twice or even once about Watts' drumming for good or ill, but he doesn't overplay so he's good in my book

he doesn't overplay so he's good in my book

The anti-Ginger.

Ginger doesn't overplay either, at least on Cream's studio stuff.

Agree with Josh that Mick Avory is underrated, I've always loved his playing. 'Everybody's Gonna Be Happy' is a great example.

He's irritating as hell on the Blind Faith album.

not to derail -- moe is probably the most anti of the anti-ginger (if "ginger" = all bro pro attitude tech chops asshole type drummer)
imo

If Ringo and Watts are overrated, then pray tell me what drummers would hve suited their bands?

can't believe these dudes have another compilation out today

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honk_(album)

In the case of the former, I think Ringo was entirely suitable for The Beatles. While I do think that Josh is OTM regarding the tendency of people to overrate Ringo, I think the reason for this is simply because he was underrated for so long. He's a good drummer, at least on the Beatles stuff, while being no Baker, Mitchell or Avory.

For the latter - Jimmy Miller, of course.

It's worth pointing out that I think Keith Moon is overrated for completely different reasons to why I think Watts isn't much cop.

It's bizarre that I have to defend "feel" on rock 'n' roll on ILM in 2019, but I can't imagine Miller coming up with Watts' part in "Honky Tonk Women" or a studio drummer doing the rolls in "Get Off of My Cloud."

Ventilator Blues is pretty tricky as a beat, especially assuming that it's a song that was written on the fly while recording and not labored over in practice. my rhythm sense is pretty on point and it's a little tough.

additionally the sick fills on "loving cup" are not played by jimmy miller

Ringo's place in the Beatles is moot, because he of course was the "right" drummer. But, for example, even Paul was probably a better drummer, and he was in the band.

Stones ... yeah, Jimmy Miller was as good or better than Watts. Or, I dunno, Kenny Jones, makes a better Watts replacement than Keith Moon replacement.

Of course, neither of the above were bad, per see, unlike, say, Michael Clark from the Byrds. But they weren't essential to the band the way, say, Keith Moon was to the Who. But both Charlie and Ringo know how to stay out of the way and never make a song *worse*, which is better than many!

additionally the sick fills on "loving cup" are not played by jimmy miller

― american bradass (BradNelson), Friday, April 19, 2019 12:50 PM (eight minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

otm the drumming on that song is perfect

are you suggesting Miller and Jones should have replaced Watts? Really?

So many intangibles affect the direction in which bands go that to speculate about how this scab or that replacement would've fared is Hoffman board crap. Miller's appropriate and on-point performances on several tracks don't answer how he would've fared with Jagger and Richards telling him how to play. Daryl Jones has been the band's bassist for almost twenty-five years -- a man who played with Miles Davis. Not once has he embarrassed himself, yet I can't think of a single part that's enlivened a dull song the same way that, say, Bill Wyman did (and, yeah, I'm aware that Richards, Ronnie, and Mick Taylor subbed for him a couple times per record).

This conversation is insane.

No! Watts is great! Just ... overrated.

Example #4567 while I never use under/overrated in conversation or writing. Over/under compared to whom?

How is Charlie Watts overrated? People have been dissing his drumming for decades!

are you suggesting Miller and Jones should have replaced Watts? Really?

― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, April 19, 2019 5:59 PM (seven minutes ago)Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Kenney Jones in the '60s would have been amazing in the Stones.

Now there's an underrated drummer!

It's bizarre that I have to defend "feel" on rock 'n' roll on ILM in 2019, but I can't imagine Miller coming up with Watts' part in "Honky Tonk Women" or a studio drummer doing the rolls in "Get Off of My Cloud."

― recriminations from the nitpicking woke (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, April 19, 2019 5:45 PM (twenty-five minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Miller plays cowbell on 'Honky Tonk Women', not because it sounded good (it just so happened to), but it was to keep Watts in time.

On 'Get Off of My Cloud', Watts actually slows down which wrecks the energy of the track. No, a studio drummer would not have done that.

i'm kinda amazed by this conversation tbh. i have always thought charlie was the best musician in the stones and, along with mick, the most irreplaceable member. i mean try to imagine "get off of my cloud" with any other drummer.

also c'mon there is no way paul is a better drummer than ringo! i mean paul is just fine on the handful of tracks he plays on, but when did he ever do anything like ringo did on "rain," "ticket to ride," "a day in the life," etc?

xpost lol, well, i guess some ppl can imagine it.

His drumming on "Band on the Run" is pretty ropey in places.

On 'Get Off of My Cloud', Watts actually slows down which wrecks the energy of the track. No, a studio drummer would not have done that.

― Le Baton Rose (Turrican)

The energy's fine -- the best of their early singles, thanks to Watts and those sinister guitars.

I can imagine Avory or Jones playing 'Get Off of My Cloud' and it sounds amazing.

The drum sound on that track does well to mask how ropey the playing is.

Tbf If Miller play cowbell on Honky Tonk Women to keep Watts in time, then mission not accomplished, because that is one of the most famous examples of speed up in rock history.

God, I can even imagine Ringo doing a better job of 'Get Off of My Cloud', particularly if it was played with the energy of 'It Won't Be Long' or 'She Loves You' ...

sorry, on phone. Didn't Paul demonstrate to Ringo the Ticket to Ride beat?

I brought up Paul as a better drummer just because I happened to be in the car the other week when Back in the USSR came on, and I kind of listened to it a bit and realized, wait, there is no way this is Ringo! Or, iirc, possibly any of the other Beatles.

Tbf If Miller play cowbell on Honky Tonk Women to keep Watts in time, then mission not accomplished, because that is one of the most famous examples of speed up in rock history.

― Josh in Chicago, Friday, April 19, 2019 6:18 PM (one minute ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Most of 'em speed up! 'Get Off of My Cloud' is the only one I can think of which does the opposite!

But Honky Tonk speeds up a noticeable ton.

Watts, I think he became a much more iconic drummer in the later years.

I do think the occasional sloppiness or imprecision of drummers like Watts and Ringo do actually add a lot of character.

I do think the occasional sloppiness or imprecision of drummers like Watts and Ringo do actually add a lot of character.

― Josh in Chicago, Friday, April 19, 2019 1:25 PM (four minutes ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

It's those weird speed ups and slow downs in tempo that make rock music "rock"

And "Sway" is the best song on this record, it might be my favorite Stones tune

I don't think Ringo was sloppy. Listen to 'Birthday', for example - that's a great performance. Ringo had his quirks, it's true, but Watts ineptitude is just annoying.

Moonlight Mile
You've gotta move
Bitch
Dead Flowers
Can't you hear me knocking
Sister Morphine
Sway
Wild Horses
I got the blues
Brown Sugar

Alfred otm wrt “this conversation is insane”

One trick to Ringo is the overdubbed percussion. (See also: Copeland, Stewart).

I've noticed he liked to manually double track his snare a lot. As for stuff like tambourines, maracas, shakers etc., zillions of bands did that and still do.

No, I'm pretty sure he's the only one.

alfred otm

yr all drunk

Just another Turriconvo...down the road

Ringo had his quirks, it's true, but Watts ineptitude is just annoying.

He's not the only one.

sway
all the others

turrican't you hear me trolling

Trolling? Not only have I actually expressed this opinion before - and my take is a valid one - I've also provided examples and explained my viewpoint.

It's just the usual case of people not liking what they're reading, and because they have no counter-argument they wheel out the old "X is trolling" statement.

LOL, what a clown.

You even said yourself, people have been dissing Watts' drumming for decades, so...

Certainly, it's not your opinions that are the problem here it's your way of defending them.

It’s so weird that the Stones were at the center of the 60s zeitgeist, had a string of huge hits, were one of the biggest bands in the world, lost a founding member and *then* found their signature sound almost a decade after forming.
Also Ginger is shit and would have killed the groove of most of the best Stones tunes.

It's only become their signature sound through repetition and because 1968-1972 is their most popular era, particularly for American rock critics. I'm sure that at the time albums like Beggar's Banquet and Let It Bleed just represented yet another hat that the Stones were just trying on, and they never stopped - usually driven by Mick - trying different hats on after they found their so-called "signature sound", which (if anything) became a crutch to lean on when they had either ran out of ideas or Mick-derived ideas to revitalise the Stones' sound proved to be unpopular.

Ginger's grooves are far less lumpen than Watts'

what does lumpen mean in reference to drumming

Yeah, I’m not saying the stones aren’t cynical, I’m saying their career arc is stranger than the official narrative suggests.
If only Dave Wekl or Vinnie Corlaiuta had been hanging around London in the early 60s eh?

what does lumpen mean in reference to drumming

― The Mod Who Banned Liberty Valance (WmC), Friday, April 19, 2019 9:44 PM (one hour ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

can't help but be reminded of the days when chuck eddy was a regular and he would dismiss bands by insisting that they "didn't even have a rhythm section" or "the drummer doesn't swing"

fellas did you know Keith Richards used an open G tuning and only played 5 strings? He’s out of time all over the place and that’s why they brought in Mick Taylor to cover up his terrible playing. They should have had Eric Clapton instead.

weird that a band that had no problem sidelining Ian Stewart for looks or sacking Brian Jones for turning into Brian Jones never managed to replace their legendarily incompetent drummer. boy howdy that Charlie Watts must really have some dirt on his singer.

Revisited this afternoon. Blasting this through good speakers is one of my life’s small pleasures.

Sister Morphine was wired in high school but def tired now that I am middle-aged.
You Got To Move still makes my skip-finger twitch, nothing will ever change that.

I really really love the horns in I Got the Blues.

Charlie’s drumming on Moonlight Mile is 🙌🏻

Sway
Moonlight Mile
Can’t You Hear Me Knocking
Wild Horses
I Got The Blues
Dead Flowers
Brown Sugar
You Got To Move
Sister Morphine

bitch is one of the first stones album cuts i liked free of radio-conditioning, i used it in many a mix until i got to liking everything

oops i left bitch off my list ragh

redux

Sway
Moonlight Mile
Can’t You Hear Me Knocking
Wild Horses
Bitch
I Got The Blues
Dead Flowers
Brown Sugar
You Got To Move
Sister Morphine

bobby’s sax on bitch is so choice

yeah i think i must have been in a phase where i wanted to hear lots of songs with horn sections

i am no rs fan and i don't know the album very well. my fave rs albums have always been beggar's banquet and exile on main street.

don't get the love for sway at all. can someone explain? a boring ballad with some awful guitar wankery in the last minute. it drags on forever. and is not even 4 minutes long, quite a feat.

wild horses
can't you hear me knocking
sister morphine
bitch
i got the blues
brown sugar
you gotta move
sway
moonlight mile
dead flowers

with SWAY it's all in the Jagger performance for me, with the guitars placing second. love the mysteriousness of the lyrics and frankly "It's just that demon life has got you in its sway" is for me one of the best single lines of all-time, just as a very particular and strange assessment of tough times.

"sway" is groovy as hell

and yeah jagger is p phenomenal on it

THERE MUST BE WAYYYS to fiiind out

also weird to hear someone classify it as a ballad, it's basically the same tempo as most songs by the band

the singing on sway has a positive effect on my feelings -- esp the "one day i WOKE up to fiiiiiiiiiind/right in the BED next to miiiiiine" part for some reason?! the lyrics are totally banal but the way he sings them gives me an energy i enjoy. idk what else to say about that.

i am a fan of the sloppy guitar solo (here and in general) and the general pace/feel/dare i say "sway' of the song

i do not think of it as a ballad at all -- it's definitely more of a loose jam? idk that this type of song has a name, maybe i just don't know what the name is

yes it's the perfect song to be called SWAY, it has a particular doomy sway to it.

first Jagger plays electric rhythm too

first time, that is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekJTcELT2E4

"It's just that demon life has got you in its sway"

been listening to this record for 10+ years, never realized he was saying that. as a matter of fact i can barely understand anything being sung on "sway" and for me that is part of the appeal, just kind of a weird murky song where they keep saying "got me in its way" for some reason

anyway, re: charlie watts

all i want to say is i'll never forgive him for ruining the otherwise awesome ending of "can't you hear me knocking" by hitting that stupid wimpy crash symbol all by himself after everybody else in the band had stopped in unison.

i always heard it as" demon wine" and thought that was apt

is it "that demon-life" or "that demon, life"

― difficult listening hour, Monday, March 5, 2018 9:19 AM Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

(it's canonically the former i know but i adore the ambiguity as sung)

I used the Les Paul; Keith doesn't play on that track. Mick Jagger's playing rhythm guitar... (I played the slide part and the solo) at the same time. I put the slide on my little finger so it would still leave the other 3 fingers free to play like they would regularly, and I switched from one to the other. That was played in regular tuning.

- Mick Taylor, 1979

i always thought it was demon-life
demonic life

anyway, re: charlie watts

all i want to say is i'll never forgive him for ruining the otherwise awesome ending of "can't you hear me knocking" by hitting that stupid wimpy crash symbol all by himself after everybody else in the band had stopped in unison.

― budo jeru, Wednesday, April 24, 2019 6:37 PM (two hours ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

Oh, I can overlook that. His "toddler whacking upside down pans with wooden spoons" approach to drum accents on 'Sway', however...

cymbal* ha

just doublechecked that "sway" has good drums, it does

It does! I stayed out of the discussion above but it never fails to surprise me how easily people will dismiss any particular drummer for “ineptitude” or “incompetence”. I have a hard time accepting that a person on a Rolling Stones recording is either of those things. Maybe not your fave but inept? Incompetent? Nah.

well you have to admit he's no mike portnoy

I saw some clip of wankers Portney and Paul Gilbert's Beatles cover band, and iirc it was shockingly faithful/tasteful!

i love Charlie’s drumming on Sway, naysayers are crazy imo

and Sway is def not a ballad, loose jam

Sway is everything l love about this period of the Stones, the loose swagger of the band & Jagger just SELLING the lyrics with this insane delivery that is like, idk, for me it’s like he’s howling at the moon. It’s so cathartic!! Swig straight out of the wine-bottle kinda music. It’s all mood & it’s the BEST.

otm

love Nicky Hopkins on Sway, too

Jagger just SELLING the lyrics with this insane delivery

otm-- had never connected my love of this song to my dylan superfandom before but i think they're related

LL's transcription--

"one day i WOKE up to fiiiiiiiiiind/right in the BED next to miiiiiine"

--also a clue

CIRCulaaaaar tiiiiiiiiiIIIIIME

I love that "Sway" has strings...by Paul Buckmaster!

ok then, it doesn't really matter if sway is a ballad or a jam or whatever but i am so much more impressed by the phantastic "can't you hear me knockin'" which definitely is a jam. that killer blues riff which gives me the zz top feel, the amazing saxophone solo, its' jazzy improv vibe, the cool santana guitar sound later on, almost 7 minutes without a second that bores me. it is the best of the early seventies coming together there, just wonderful. i don't really care so much about jagger's singing, somehow i don't hear his voice anymore as it is so ubiquitous as i have heard it so many times. anyone else who prefers knocking to sway?

i listed CYHMK above Sway on my list upthread. both are better than great.

anyone else who prefers knocking to sway?

Me, by miles!

VG otm Sway is the Stones doing what they do like no one else

though Moonlight Mile is beautiful and like almost nothing else they did

"Moonlight Mile" is Taylor's loveliest moment on a Stones single, and my favorite use of Buckmaster strings.

Sway is the Stones doing what they do like no one else

Incidentally, a friend gave me the Joel Selvin Altamont book for my birthday and I'm finally getting around to reading it. It had never even occurred to me how removed the Stones were from the rock scene, particularly in America. By 1969 they hadn't played the U.S. in 3 years and were practically broke (the American tour was explicitly to refill their empty coffers), and they were desperate to sort of break back into America, which culminated in the Altamont disaster. Clearly the band came out the other side intact, but having this album start out the new decade didn't hurt. I wonder what might have been if they followed the '60s and Let It Bleed directly with Exile?

sway is a great song i am sorry you are having trouble with your hearing

There are people who don't like Sway? I'd argue that its #2 placement practically makes the album.

even if that was true it would not be a sufficient condition to make it a good song. though i think the whole exile on main street double album is where they are really doing their own thing.

― je est un autre, l'enfer c'est les autres (alex in mainhattan), Thursday, April 25, 2019

really no choice but to FP for this. you'll thank me when you sober up.

exile’s great and I love it with my whole heart, but it’s the succinctness of Sticky Fingers that appeals to me in my old age

really no choice but to FP for this. you'll thank me when you sober up.

don’t tuomas me lol

in the early days of ilm you could bust balls for challops

weird that some people cannot accept different opinions. in the early days of ilm there used to be that sentence "a frightening consensus is building up". times have changed.

Yup, unfortunately.

Anyhow, I re-listened to this album last night and one thing that struck me about 'Sway' this go-round is how superb the bassline is. Wyman really brings home the goods on that one. Love the strings and vocal performance, too. Watts' drumming gets really ropey at times, particularly in the middle section with several fluffed fills and seemingly forgetting what song he's playing at one point.

this is funny:

The songs on Sticky Fingers varied from the brilliant to the rather average and forgettable. "Sway," which sways on the border between a lazy midtempo number and a ballad, falls into the latter category,

Cant you hear...
Bitch
Brown sugar
You gotta move
Sway

Everything else

Moonlight mile makes me think they were trying to do a song like Hendrixs may this be love but not matching it.

"Moonlight Mile" is better than any Hendrix song.

'Moonlight Mile' is amazing but nah.

yah

I mean, "Can't You Hear Me..." as top of the list is a Stones I don't hear, but it's all good

ANY Hendrix song?

I like a bit of hyperbole, but even comparing it just with ballads, ie angel, drifting, little wing, castles made of sand, nah.

Cant you hear is just low key brilliance. That riff alone.

Tempted to poll 'Moonlight Mile' vs, say, 'Machine Gun' or '1983… (A Merman I Should Turn to Be)'.

1983 is better than anything the stones could hope to do.

Electric ladyland is better than exile. That could be a cool poll.

Don't know if I'd go that far but it's a respectable stance.

xp nah I'll take Exile over Electric Ladyland.

Are You Experienced? over Exile though.

I'm not wired to appreciate Hendrix, I've realized.

Are you experienced over let it bleed and beggars. EL vs Exile is a good old fashioned double album contest.

Then poll it! I've started enough of 'em in my time.

Tbh for me, I'll take get yer ya yas or a good live bootleg over any proper stones studio album.

BS
Sway
Knockin
Beetch
Moonlight
Other shit

There must be ways to find out

In this poll from 2011, which featured some other classic rock double albums besides Electric Ladyland, Exile won in a walk. Lots of missing albums from that poll though. (Trout Mask Replica and The Band s/t come to mind). Might be interesting to do a more complete one.

best big iconic classic rock studio double LP of the 1960s and 1970s

This is a sticky fingers thread

~taps sign~

wild horses = little wing, they even resolve with a similar 3 chord sequence

mystified by the assertion that “moonlight mile” was an attempt at writing a hendrix-style song, hendrix was never one for sweeping orchestration. the guitar does heavily use the pentatonic hammer-ons that jimi loved so much

“little wing” and “wild horses” are in the same key, that’s all (well, hendrix uses the relative minor). the I-bVII-IV change that they share is an extremely common rock progression

there's no reasoning with hendrix stans...

Moonlight Mile reminds me of Van Morrison and nothing else, but I think that's more Van imitating Moonlight Mile than the other way around?

I just found myself comparing the drums on MM and may this be love.

Lord what was I thinking, they’re completely different songs with only one thing in common, should not be mentioned in the same sentence. I must have caused such chaos in the universe!!!

You sound unhappy. Calm down. It is just a comparison. You will come across this many times in life.

Really though, play the two next to each other and they actually flow well together. That is all.

yep, they’d definitely fit nicely next to each other on a playlist. and you could throw “may this be love” on there too

seriously you guys should check out this new outtake set. i bumped a different rs thread but no traction. https://iorr.org/talk/read.php?2,2805669

I don’t love putting songs that are that close together on mixtapes but it’s cool, kumbaya

xpost Have been digging through those outtakes. A reall treat though I don’t all of them are Stones trax ( Jagger solo maybe on some?) and my ears tell me some of the vocals seem ... new-ish on lots of them.

*I don’t think

this is the consensus of the iorr folks about what's on there: https://iorr.org/talk/read.php?2,2805935

cool! Thanks

Yeesh, "Brown Sugar" chocolate bar now for sale at the Rolling Stones' official store: https://therollingstonesshop.co.uk/*/*/Brown-Sugar-Chocolate-Bar/6NEA0000000

How come you taste so good?

(Because you cost £6.95)

The Rolling Stones are giving us ANOTHER way to get sticky fingers.

Can't You Hear Me Knocking Doorbell: £99.95

How come you taste so good?

(Because you cost £6.95)

This legit cracks me up, I've been sitting here giggling for like five minutes

uh oh. genuinely considering buying a mug.

I kind of want the "she's so cold" blanket but luckily it's out of my price range.

Could I interest you in a "She Was Hot" air fryer?

I'd like a silver train train set.

Get Off My Cloud parachute £595

Soul Survivor Go Bag $24.95

Just Want to See His Face cream $39.95

Dancing with Mr D premium laxative £19.95

Little T&A lingerie for petites £59.95

Dancing with Mr D Let it Loose premium laxative £19.95

Moonlight Mile reminds me of Van Morrison

I need sticky fingers glue. For craft-y stones fans.

The other thing "Moonlight Mile" reminds me of, that is not a song at all, is the passage from As I Lay Dying that begins, "In a strange room you must empty yourself for sleep" and ends, "How often have I lain beneath rain on a strange roof, thinking of home."

imagining van doing moonlight mile on it's too late to stop now, that would have been unreal

Van Morrison's "Moonlight Mile" is "Almost Independence Day".

That was what I was thinking of.

imagining van doing moonlight mile on it's too late to stop now, that would have been unreal

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Sunday, March 7, 2021 9:12 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

I'm imagining Astral Weeks-style mystical Van mode:

"I'm riding down your moonlight mile, your moonlight mile . . . I'm just about a moonlight mile . . . in your radio . . ."

I've been listening to lots of Stones this week in the wake of Charlie Watts' passing, and today--after many years of listening to "Sway"--I have learned that it's "that demon life has got you in its sway," not "that mean old life forgot you in its sway." "Demon life" goes way harder

moonlight mile
can't you hear me knocking
wild horses
dead flowers
sister morphine
sway
i got the blues
bitch
you got to move
brown sugar

for some reason, just before watts died i was having a moment with Between the Buttons. many moments, like on repeat for days and days. i like the usual big 4 stones albums (beggar's through exile), but i no longer think those are their best. sticky fingers seems so SLOW now!

not trying to set up a strawman or talk shit on sticky fingers or anything -- i'm pretty sure those are the the consensus "big 4" with the stones, right, and their 1966/67 stuff fucking rules!

i think my favorite stones era is still 1968 though, holy moley

You ranked Sugar LAST?

Recently come to the conclusion that as 'obscene' as the lyrics are in "Brown Sugar", they're beaten in the obscenity sweepstakes by the beat under the verses and especially the sax solo.

The sax solo itself, I mean, as the verse beat plays under it too.

"Sway"
"Dead Flowers"
"Moonlight Mile"
"Can't You Hear Me Knocking" (first 2-3 minutes; the part they use in Casino)

"Wild Horses"
"You Got to Move"
"Brown Sugar" (low ranking not a statement; just tired of it)
"I Got the Blues"

"Can't You Hear Me Knocking" (rest of the song)
"Sister Morphine"
"Bitch"

i always thought it was “demon wine” that got you in its sway, but then again i've always been bad at deciphering lyrics

ha! i didn't mean to put it last i guess! i was going through in order and putting them in tiers, and thought "let's put this near the bottom" and forgot to revisit

Gold coast slave ship bound for cotton fields
Sold in a market down in New Orleans
Scarred old slaver knows he's doing alright
Hear him whip the women just around midnight
Brown sugar
How come you taste so good?
Brown sugar
Just like a young girl should

well, i guess it was...1971...

there are a lot of songs featuring horny white men singing about having sex with people of color around that time, but that one seems especially tone deaf, and it also points to a kind of songwriting style for them (the kind that is most frequently played on the radio, like start me up) that is not my favorite

Peak Jagger, singing live to a backing track on TOTP

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B0Y3LUqr1Q

why do they still sing that song?

i'm not trying to me too the rolling stones, it's just like woooooooow at that one though. the very least they could do is stop playing it in the year 2021.

They still do it, but Jagger 'forgets' to sing the nastier parts.

but every verse is like that! and every chorus is like that! lol

let's see, which part should we excise here from verse 2

Drums beating, cold English blood runs hot
Lady of the house wonderin' when it's gonna stop
House boy knows that he's doing alright
You shoulda heard 'em just around midnight

uh

how about verse 3

Ah, and I bet your mama was a tent show queen
And all her boyfriends were sweet sixteen
I'm no schoolboy, but I know what I like
You shoulda heard me just around midnight

oh

XPS Like every verse ends with "You shoulda heard 'em..." without the description of what you're hearing.

He kinda mumbles the rest.

genius.com commenter:

“Brown sugar” is also a reference to (brown) heroin, which Mick Jagger used liberally at the time. He is asking why heroin is so fun. So there is another layer to the song which is about Jagger’s complicated relationship with the euphoric, taboo, and deadly drug.

+10

brown sugar, right after that:

"got me craving the, the brown sugar, just like a black girl should, yeah"

um, yes but the black girl...heroin. drugs.

Most people don't know the words until they see them written out or are told what they are.

i just had a 3 hour text argument with my mom about why she won't get vaccinated because the doctors of the entire world are just faking the whole thing for money.

i will leave this here for now, because i can't do it

I mean, they could quietly drop the song and most folks wouldn't care as long as they get the other 15 expected hits in a show.

They didn't do "Beast of Burden" the last time they played here, and people were upset. Add it back in place of "Brown Sugar" and-Voila!-happy campers.

Or they could cover this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h50eAv9tjvA

Friendly Reminder: It Sure Got POLLED After The Rain Fell: ILM Artist Poll #110 – ZZ Top

I thought that this thread was bumped because the cover model was suing.

We still don't know for sure whose package that is

and it also points to a kind of songwriting style for them (the kind that is most frequently played on the radio, like start me up) that is not my favorite

I've seen the rolling stones in their geriatry play "start me up" on television so many times that i always forget how good their 60's stuff is. Otm

I have learned that it's "that demon life has got you in its sway," not "that mean old life forgot you in its sway."

Until just now, I thought it was "evil eye"!

Yeah, me too!

demon life 4 ever

I thought it was “evil life” !

Can hear it now, I guess.

Charlie’s fills sound like he’s framing a house

I don’t remember the existence of this song “I Got the Blues.”

Ha, just like the first four posters.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwOoM0tjon4

Okay, that’s pretty good.

”Can't You Hear Me Knocking" (first 2-3 minutes; the part they use in Casino)

They use the whole song in Casino! From the shot outside the Gold Rush to “They were 1500 miles away, and I don’t know anybody who can see that far.”

You're right, it plays through...You know what I mean about the break in the song, though, right? The first two minutes of the scene are great, then the meandering rest of the song takes over.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5CTEQ8SeIs

(Some awkward language, so I won't embed.)

I checked the original: the exact break is at 2:43.

ts brown sugar vs some girls

some girls without a doubt, both in terms of the music (better) and also the degrees of misogyny and racism (less, more normalized in an era of sleazeballs who get the benefit of the doubt 50 years later)

i promise i'm not trying to be annoying and that i love the rolling stones

lol no I totally agree. I can’t listen to brown sugar but still fw some girls. and stray cat blues. and star star…

Anybody FW the Little Richard "Brown Sugar" cover from later in '71?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L7ycG_jlqXc

On one hand it's disappointing because it's Little Richard AND "Brown Sugar", so it should be the greatest, nastiest thing ever, but it isn't. OTOH, Richard is game enough, and hearing the song arranged as a retro Soul number is an interesting reimagining.

damn, that's so good! his band feels like popcorn, playing that song. they're all hitting the beats and bouncing straight up, it's amazing

(Sugar sugar)

sticky fingers seems so SLOW now!

― professional anti- (Karl Malone),

man, feeling this! i cant remember the last time i spun sticky fingers, for some reason its just fell out of my regular stones rotation over the years. in my memory it comes SCREAMING out of the gate with brown sugar and doesnt let up... just put it on for the first time in i dunno when, and thought brown sugar was playing at the wrong speed at first, it sounded so slow. i must have gotten coked-up live versions of these songs stuck in my memory banks, replacing the originals

Between the Buttons

Between the fucking Buttons!

this ^

the bass on between the buttons is this scraping, insistent, evil thing

yes

like on Connection, a few songs in. holy moley

and the marimba on "Yesterday's Papers."

hell yeah, Between the Buttons is on fire when it starts

it slows down near the end. whaddya want?! go record some songs yourself!!

but the at the end, "Complicated", which is a perfect mixture of "Let's Spend the Night Together" and "Satisfaction", and one of chuckie "two times" watts best performances

(the "bahs" of the chorus follow the rhythm of Satisfaction and the melody of Let's Spend the Night Together)

which is a songwriting faux pas, and i'm sure the reason it's not a classic is because it's more exciting when it's the first time.

but damn, "complicated" throws it all together again and it's so good. 1967, before they slowed down

*taps the sign* this is a sticky fingers thread, pal

You know what I mean about the break in the song, though, right? The first two minutes of the scene are great, then the meandering rest of the song takes over.

I do know what you mean, and it's extremely effective in the first part of the scene. But I love how it continues; it has to. For one thing, it would seem awkward if it just cut off at some point, but it bolsters the rest of the scene, and the way the scene emphasizes the end of the song -- or vice-versa -- is perfect. I should point out, though, that I always loved the whole song.

brown sugar is an evil, amazing song. best on the album, along with moonlight mile. heroin and coke, with the numbness and adrenaline switching places which is intriguing. like the coke song was written on heroin and the heroin song was written on coke.

y'all actin like the majestic tempo of this record is a problem...

THANK YOU

feeling like Annie Wilkes itt, have you all got AMNEEESIA etc

Masterpieces: Sway, Moonlight Mile
Great song, good jam: Can't You Hear Me Knockin'
Great riff, middling song: Brown Sugar, Bitch
Nice: Dead Flowers
Nice but too long: Wild Horses, Sister Morphine
Dull: I Got the Blues
Bad: You Got to Move

I knew someone who had the Spanish version of this, which trades "Sister Morphine" for a live Chuck Berry cover.

brown sugar is the worst song ever written & the band should have been forcibly disbanded for making it

you got to move is second worst just for that vocal

as a stones-disliker i think wild horses and can't you hear me knockin' are pretty good songs

throw the rest in the middle somewhere, they're not great or terrible

as far as overrated rock classics go i'll still take exile

OK Millennial

I'm in the minority but I like the Santana part of Can't You Hear Me Knocking!

Fucking Sway though

dead flowers is one of the greatest songs ever. the country twang is ridiculously fake, but "you know i could never be alone" is heartbreakingly real.

I love it, definitely the best of "Nick Jagger's Great Adventures in Fake Southern Accents"

I'm in the minority but I like the Santana part of Can't You Hear Me Knocking!

It's great!

BOBBY KEYS!

IN MAH RAGGED.
COMP-AH-NEE

the whole album for me is “barefoot at midnight, drinking coffee mugs of red wine & smoking cigarettes” & pulling it apart track by track def bums me out more than a little

its not just songs, its a ~mood~

I'm in the minority but I like the Santana part of Can't You Hear Me Knocking!

― Blues Guitar Solo Heatmap (Free Download) (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Saturday, August 28, 2021 10:01 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

i’m pretty sure you’re not in the minority here!

Mick Taylor rules.

I especially like when Prince borrowed it or did something similar in “I Could Never Take the Place of Your Man.”

Incredible contrast to the bouncy New Wave regular part.

Maybe he heard it once before that famous stage-booing incident.

i sort of live for that little blown note in the can't you hear me knockin' guitar solo. which he then makes up for by doubling down on the phrase and turning it into something good. kudos for them leaving that in.

"Knockin'" was a highlight of the last time I saw them. Iirc Ron had recently stopped drinking again, and he was sharper and more alive than he'd been in years. He took the solo, and he absolutely nailed it.

Someone should've written a song called "He Recently Stopped Drinking (Again)" for George Jones.

Sounds a wee bit more like a Gary Stewart song, but yeah.

the Knockin solo is a good one to learn if you’re a beginner player. Tasty, restrained, full of pretty standard hot licks

Sway sounds like it was recorded at about 10 am after a quick breakfast of toast, OJ, and coke

Lol

ha for real, it’s an ultimate hangover song yeah?

That rhythm guitar pounds away at ya

hard to think of a more perfect "songwriter tells you who they are" lyric than

Ain't flinging tears out on the dusty ground
For all my friends out on the burial ground
Can't stand the feeling getting so brought down

One of the things I find honestly pretty relatable about Jagger in this era is the way he's so clearly upset by the way his friends keep getting addicted to heroin and/or dying, but he's also someone with limited emotional bandwidth for dealing with this shit so at a certain point it stops registering as grief and just comes across as irritation.

that is SO well ptu

"put" too

Brown Sugar is such a jam, but I've always had some trouble with the lyrics, and recently playing/singing it with some friends we kind of had this simultaneous realization that we just did not feel good at all belting out stuff like "sold in a market down in New Orleans." And I think it's kind of dead for me now, unfortunately.

xp good insight, lily

You see that ambivalence too in something like "Heartbreaker", too, Jagger's outraged but there's a coldness about it.

well ptu is the new grebt

Writing a song about police brutality and child drug addicts and then titling it "Doo Doo Doo Doo Doo"; mixed messaging.

"ACAB ACAB ACAB" doesn't sing as well.

Dead Flowers
Moonlight Mile
Sway
Can't You Hear Me Knocking
Wild Horses
I Got The Blues
Brown Sugar
Bitch
Sister Morphine
You Gotta Move

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3N0A2b7nbdM

Live Hot Bitch

I guess Keith played lead on this track

morphine and wild horses are the two I’d probably toss. like I get why WH is a hit and central to RS “lore” (or whatever—Gram, etc) but yeah, those two I skip past.

I’d add I Got the Blues to that list but I saw em do it live in ‘99 and it was pretty cool.

Bitch is the most Memphis shit

like ‘02 Jack Oblivian doing a session at ‘68 Stax

Can't You Hear Me Knocking is one of Charlie's true moments of absolute drumming genius. The one-bar-late change is absolute godhead, and nobody knew when do to it like Charlie knew.

That Bitch live clip, wow. What a fucking band

Yeah, makes me not rmde at the "Greatest R&R Band" stuff.

the only reason to skip wild horses is bc you already know it completely in your bones.

it was randomly playing on shuffle the night we drove home after my father in law passed away three years ago & now i cry every time i hear it

;_;

sorry for bringing you down VG

not at all!

honestly, in a weird way, I kind of like that it made me connect with the song differently?

played at my friend's funeral so same vibes here

the scene in gimme shelter where they are in the studio listening to the playback of wild horses is all-time. song rules and I pity people who have heard it too much to enjoy it.

Wild Horses has associations with death for me as well. It came on the radio right after I found out a friend of mine died in an accident. It tears a hole in me ever since.

They played Nashville last night, so for the 'Internet Vote' song the ballot was limited to Country-style tracks, and interestingly "Dead Flowers" beat "Wild Horses".

On record, I prefer "Wild Horses," but I think "Dead Flowers" usually is the better one for them to perform live.

Lately I have been listening to Sticky Fingers and realizing how little I know it as an actual album. It's such a weird mix of great songs I've heard a million times, great songs I don't hear enough, and songs I never need to hear again that it's very rare for me to just put it on and let it play. But I listened to the first half a while back and now I'm kind of obsessed with the sequencing that puts Wild Horses right after Brown Sugar and Sway and right before Can't You Hear Me Knocking.

Like, you start out with two songs that are intentionally noisy and opaque and messy; Jagger slurring his lines on Brown Sugar, howling on Sway; there's that sense that you often get with Stones songs of the signal just barely making it through the noise. Sway, in particular, feels like it's very much about that, just this scream of frustration at the messiness of life & the persistence of shit coming down on you that you have to care about.

Set against that, what I notice most about "Wild Horses" is how clear it is, and how careful. Each moment in the song, whether it's the musical accompaniment or a line of verse, has a little island of quiet around it, as if Jagger is waiting to make sure you've got the message before he goes on. There's a feeling of handling something fragile, a feeling of going line by line through a compact between two people, a feeling of emotion held in check - even in the final verse, every word is clear and deliberate. It all adds up to a sense - and I can't believe I'm saying this of Jagger, but it's what I get from the song - of "this isn't about me."

And then you get to "Can't You Hear Me Knocking," and the noise closes in again. And the more I listen to the songs in that order, the more striking the sheer amount of silence in "Wild Horses" seems. Stones songs of this era often seem to me, like I said, to be the signal trying to make it through the noise. And I love that about them. But "Wild Horses," in this sequence, comes off to me as something different: Jagger holding off the noise for just long enough to say something he needs to say.

Do you hear the same "quiet" in "Moonlight Mile"? Or "Sister Morphine" for that matter?

Now I kinda want to switch the track listing around. I think it might work better this way:

SIDE A
1. Brown Sugar
2. Sway
3. Wild Horses
4. Bitch
5. I Got The Blues
6. You Gotta Move

SIDE B
7. Can't You Hear Me Knocking
8. Sister Morphine
9. Dead Flowers
10. Moonlight Mile

“Knocking” is barely a song and has terrible production

the what?

the hell you say

Lily Dale otm.

And the production throughout is by far the clearest and most vivid of any Stones record up to this point. If you told me Watts wasn’t sitting next to me when he kicks in on “Knocking,” I’d call you a damn liar. And whether or not it’s a “song” (how are you defining that, calstars?) is irrelevant, since “song” isn’t qualitative.

I have bought into the stones myth for most of my life. But the truth is these guys are just not that good. They had access to recoding equipment and distribution and that’s the biggest reason they are revered by so many

I love the first few minutes of “Knocking,” but not so much when it turns into a stiff, noodly jam… :/

But the truth is these guys are just not that good.

Of course they are: they’re good at being the Stones. Sometimes, they’re great at being the Stones. What other yardstick (imagined or otherwise) could one even measure them by?

yeah that's a weird conclusion to reach

I must agree that the first part of Knocking >>>> the second part of Knocking

May the ghost of Bobby Keys fart in all y'all haters direction.

Aww

There’s nothing stiff (the presence of Watts and Dzidzornu makes stiffness impossible) nor noodly (ditto Taylor and Keys) about “Knocking.” It’s focused, there’s nothing the least bit tentative about it, and of all the Stones songs Scorsese has used, “Knocking” is the only one (I think?) that he lets play through to its completion.

I love the first few minutes of “Knocking,” but not so much when it turns into a stiff, noodly jam… :/
― Vexatious litigant (morrisp)

Have been saying this for years. Scorsese wisely used the first part in the trailer for Casino, and it was great; he used both parts for the film, and it dragged.

xp I dunno, it sounds pretty stiff to me… the guitar & sax lines not particular good… like it’s not up to the standards of even the weakest Dead jam. Maybe I’m just not coming at it from the right standpoint.

(xpost) Think he maybe used the entirety of "Then He Kissed Me" for Goodfellas' Copa shot, but not 100% sure.

I'm not a fan.

I dunno, it sounds pretty stiff to me… the guitar & sax lines not particular good… like it’s not up to the standards of even the weakest Dead jam. Maybe I’m just not coming at it from the right standpoint.

Yeah, not a patch on Garcia/Marsalis, right?

This album is so boring

The idea of comparing any music on earth to the Grateful Dead and having the Dead come out on top...

ban calstars

Yeah, not a patch on Garcia/Marsalis, right?

Don’t know if you’re joking, but “EOTW” on Without a Net is awesome!

(It’s OK for the Stones not to be good at everything they tried…? Fwiw, I also wouldn’t endorse the dead playing Johnny B. Goode or whatever.)

Stop worshipping these guys

ban calstars

god I knew it was a bad idea to click on this thread

great, now i bought all this shrine equipment and got the incense going and i can't even use it to worship. built this whole rock n roll wing for nothing

does anyone agree that mick taylor blows a note in his solo? then repeats the phrase to get it right? the blown note i'm hearing is at 5:32. don't get me wrong -- i love the whole thing; the jam is slinky and cool as could be. it's even cool that they left in the blown note.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gz5mI6tqm_Q

mick Taylor blows

Really! Why is he so canon? He’s a player who gets wax and knows what a 9th is Ohh

i'd take brian jones or ronnie wood over him but his tenure happened to coincide with their songwriting peak and he filled the spot admirably.

To balance out my negativity, I will say that “Sway” is some fierceness (my keeper from this album)

sway is ilm's very favourite stones track (and also mine)

Every song on this album is good to great.

xp I dunno, it sounds pretty stiff to me… the guitar & sax lines not particular good… like it’s not up to the standards of even the weakest Dead jam. Maybe I’m just not coming at it from the right standpoint.

― Vexatious litigant (morrisp), Sunday, January 22, 2023 4:29 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

could we just not talk about this band for one minute?

every time those dorks staggered their way through a few chord changes people act like it's "the creator has a master plan" times a billion

Every song on this album is good to great.

I hate "You Gotta Move", it's the worst song they released between 1968 and 1972.

xp Who, the Dead(?)

does anyone agree that mick taylor blows a note in his solo? then repeats the phrase to get it right? the blown note i'm hearing is at 5:32. don't get me wrong -- i love the whole thing; the jam is slinky and cool as could be. it's even cool that they left in the blown note.

― Thus Sang Freud, Sunday, January 22, 2023 7:46 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

mick Taylor blows

― calstars, Sunday, January 22, 2023 7:49 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Clifford Brown takes no fewer than FIVE stabs at a phrase during his solo in "What Is This Thing Called Love," and it's beautiful (at 1:59)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb_uG7dSGcs

So the question now is, why does calstars hate Clifford Brown so much?

I always think I don't like this stuff at all when I'm not listening to it for some reason

My rankings

Pretty great to pretty listenable:
1. Can't You Hear Me Knocking
2. Wild Horses
3. Bitch
4. Moonlight Mile
5. Sway
6. Dead Flowers
7. Sister Morphine
8. I Got the Blues

Absolutely fuck off with that delivery:
9. You Gotta Move

Possibly the worst song ever recorded:
10. fuck this fucking piece of shit

yeah, it is fucking terrible, that song. i'm not a lyrics guy, or at least barely paid attention to them in the past, but once you recognize what he's singing, on purpose, and that it's a huge hit and they played it for 40 years* it's really, really hard to overlook

*we were talking about this song a while back, i think, and i think i remember it mentioned that they don't play it anymore? (now that they're 150 years old)

Just relistened this morning. There's not a song I would remove. If I was forced to rank the tracks and put something last, I guess it would have to be "Moonlight Mile", which is probably the one I'd be least likely to listen to as a stand-alone track, but don't get me wrong, it's still a good song, and it's better than good in the context of the album, where it kind of feels like a glimpse of redemption as the first rays of sun peak through the curtains after a long night of doing things that are not great for one's health. Maybe the reason this is my favorite Stones album is because its the most swamp-rock. There's more than a bit of CCR and Fogerty in this album. Jagger even sings "boined" for "burned" in "I Got the Blues". "Brown Sugar" bears some similarity to "Proud Mary". "Dead Flowers" is a bit like "Lodi".

yes it's too bad that artists 50 years ago had a different way of expressing their disgust with slavery and imperialism.

Music's good.

Stop worshipping these guys

Grateful Dead? OTM.

Hey, I was the one who mentioned the Dead... don't take it out on calstars.

xp I dunno, it sounds pretty stiff to me… the guitar & sax lines not particular good… like it’s not up to the standards of even the weakest Dead jam. Maybe I’m just not coming at it from the right standpoint.

― Vexatious litigant (morrisp), Sunday, January 22, 2023 10:29 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

totally agree with this, people who don't like the Dead can deal with it. The Dead aren't for you and that's ok. Love Pharoah but he's doing something totally different

I like the Dead

cool. . . so you agree ;)

i also agree they are dorks and talked about too much so i'll shut up. . .

I just think it might be cool if everyone could calm down not act like they invented improvising.

FWIW, I don't think that (and didn't say that)! I'll cop to it perhaps being a lazy off-the-cuff comparison – though I don't think it's out of bounds for a jam on a 1971 rock album.

The Dead seem a lot easier to avoid than the Stones. Like no one is going to force you to listen to a bunch of bootlegs (unless you make poor dating choices)

2nd half of CYHMK sounds a lot more like they're trying to sound like Santana than the Dead.

yeah i'd always felt like it was a santana thing. i like it, for what it is, though the first half is so good and tight i wish they'd made it 7-plus min of that.

It's funny, I looked up the song earlier and saw this Keith quote:

The jam at the end wasn't inspired by Carlos Santana. We didn't even know they were still taping. We thought we'd finished. We were just rambling and they kept the tape rolling. I figured we'd just fade it off. It was only when we heard the playback that we realised, Oh, they kept it going. Basically we realised we had two bits of music. There's the song and there's the jam.

Don't know why he goes out of his way to specify that it WASN'T inspired by Santana(?) Maybe the interviewer suggested that or something

I expect it wasn't the first time the comparison had been made.

Santana covered the song too

The source page for that quote also has Mick saying:

We did this at Olympic and the jam at the end was an afterthought. It comes in two pieces, this rock song with this added jam. It's slightly Carlos Santana-like, Mick Taylor plays a bit of that style, I think. I don't think we meant that, but somehow it added on and I think this was done really quickly, too.

There's a bit of "East-West" in there too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvWvOwLCWGg

I guess it would have to be "Moonlight Mile", which is probably the one I'd be least likely to listen to as a stand-alone track, but don't get me wrong, it's still a good song, and it's better than good in the context of the album, where it kind of feels like a glimpse of redemption as the first rays of sun peak through the curtains after a long night of doing things that are not great for one's health.

Moonlight Mile is my favorite song on the album, though I might like it a bit less now that I just found out the lyric isn't "I'm just living to be dying by your side" which I thought was a cool inversion and Mick/Keith's take on a VU-style drug ode like Heroin.

xps the song is expressing their disgust with slavery and imperialism much like stray cat blues is expressing their disgust with men molesting teenagers and under my thumb is expressing their disgust with patriarchal abuse and midnight rambler etc

I'm pretty sure all this was seen as fucked up at the time - that's what made it edgy - but BS is the kind of thing that would end a band in a just world and the half century of rock fans and critics defending and celebrating it is a repulsive spectacle

it's bad enough that I think of this album as one I hate even though I enjoy 80% of it to varying degrees

unlike the morally spotless avatars of rightiousness who exist today, the stones had the indecency to incriminate even themselves.

note how "scarred old slaver" in the first verse becomes "i" later in the song.

greil marcus thinking it through in real time:
https://greilmarcus.net/2014/08/06/rolling-stones-sticky-fingers-1071/

as a text it's certainly more generative than the average racist or sexist classic rock song and it does kind of give the game away- if white rock in general is the GOP then brown sugar is trump. but you don't have to hand it to them for nailing the ugliness at the heart of the genre so vividly

I see Greil provides another touchpoint for the "CYHMK" jam:

(T)he song rocks through its few minutes of glory like few songs ever have. If they eventually blow the performance by jerking the listener, as if someone had punched a button from WROK to WJAZ, into a pleasant and pallid excursion into what reminds me more of the Ventures than anything else, then again, this is part of their confusion and their inability to know what to do with their music, their talent, and their own best impulses.

xpost
and merging it with their most concise and powerful rocker into the bargain. i think it is a mistake to equate sexist classic rock with the GOP, thereby safely placing it "over there" and enabling anyone else to wash their hands of any inconvenient truths. but maybe that's why i'm persona non grata on the politics threads.

sure i'm complicit in racial capitalism and my repudiation of mick jagger is in part an attempt to distance myself from that unpleasant fact

is it hypocritical to find his wallowing and savouring of his position distasteful

short of abolishing myself or embracing the worst of reality the options seem to be to throw my hands up and say it's complicated or to bitch and moan about the worst excesses in the hope that they become harder to defend more generally and then idk

i'm not going to defend the song and i am sure there are many things about the stones' personal lives i do not want to know about. wyman's marriage to a teenager, for instance, was revolting, and i'm sure there would be more dirt if i dug into it. but i don't think that means i need to put away my stones records forever or anything. at this point these records are over 50 years old; dipping into them is like pulling out my copy of moby dick. they're just there, part of the culture.

the most insidious thing about them was probably the misogyny, actually. but like, understanding this aspect of their music and rock culture in the 60s and 70s helps explain the limitations and even the failures of the counterculture. i don't know what cancelling would accomplish at this point except whitewashing this history.

Greil's question seems apt:

The leer may be a parody, but is it still a leer?

And I think the answer is yes. The song in a way is a descendant of noir novels like Jim Thompson's The Killer Inside Me that trick you into rooting for a sociopath and then leave you wriggling on the hook to deal with your own feelings of guilt afterwards. Irony is no defense. I don't think the song should be defended. Its extremely toxic. Luckily its much easier to avoid now than I guess it was in the summer when Greil was writing that piece and it was blaring from every FM radio.

lolita is like this too, i think

the culture is kind of shit in a lot of ways (sure so am i as a product of it). there is racism in moby dick (in a vaguely similar semi-knowing kind of way) and calling that out isn't the same as wanting to burn it or being unable to understand nuance and complexity or whatever. the kids who don't like huck finn aren't wrong or stupid or unable to understand what it's trying to do either, they just know it's not good enough. if that's cancel culture then i'm all for it

"Moonlight Mile" is the greatest closing track of the era, minimum.

i still prefer exile, but nothing on that is as good as dead flowers

"Loving Cup" is.

"Sister Moonlight"s sometimes too affected for me to enjoy until Ry Cooder's solo slaps my face.

frankly they peaked with she's a rainbow / 2000 light years and i wish they (and other psych bands) hadn't felt the need to retreat into the rootsy bluesy manly rut they've largely been stuck in since 68

i love that stuff too but i disagree

idk they got pretty swishy with the rock-disco stuff later in the decade. I wish they'd recorded an album's worth of "Let Me Go" and "When the Whip Comes Down"s.

"am i rough enough?"

"Waiting on a Friend" was their last great song.

Rolling Stones 1968-1972 is the most unfuckwithable run in music history

Best four-album run in rock history, hands down.

frankly they peaked with she's a rainbow / 2000 light years

I'm glad you're speaking out with such frankness, but, as much as I love "She's a Rainbow," that strikes me as absurd.

rootsy bluesy manly rut

One of the things that makes Beggars Banquet my choice for best Stones album is that they retained a lot of the psychedelic haze that was soon cleared away by Mick Taylor, saxophones, and the whole barroom ambience.

stripped is good, imo

their best disco is dance part 2 (if I was a dancer)

Hearing "CYHMK" on the radio just now, and zoning in on Charlie in particular: was this the first time the Stones really got Funky in the pure James Brown/Dyke & The Blazers sense?

One day I woke up to find