Sonic Youth: Classic or Dud/S&D?

Search: Bad Moon Rising, Evol (****), Sister (***** - if I had another star, it would get 6 stars, it is that classic!!!), Goo, and about 15 to 20 minutes of Dirty

Destroy: Daydream Nation, the rest of Dirty and everything else that followed up until about NYC Ghosts & Flowers, which basically scrapes by with a ***

I do actually *love* a great deal of Sonic Youth's eirie, spacey, alien, wonky, warped, blissful music. However, also DESTROY: the *entire* NYC Sonic Youth Cult Of Art and all the pretentious jazzwankers who hang out at the Cooler wishing they could be Lee Renaldo. You're not. Now shave off the chin-rag and go home.

Oh, GAWD, why didn't I think of Sonic Youth back in the "Love the band, hate the image" thread?

No, it's a sentiment I've seen expressed a fair bit, but I'd disagree with it myself.

On Sonic Youth, I'm pretty much a spouter of the conventional indie- rock wisdom. Evol/Sister/Daydream Nation : five star classic. Dirty/Goo : grand poppier stuff but with loss experimental edge. Post- Dirty: good bits very good but the more self-consciously experimental bits don't rock enough to match up to the pop stuff. Pre-Evol: interesting, but don't listen to it that much.

The other album I REALLY like is 'Dirty'. SY diehards may not agree, and it does feel like a step towards the 'mainstream', which is what I really like about it, I guess. Search for "Theresa's Sound World", but it's all great.

I lost interest after Dirty - I always intend to pick up some of the 90's albums cheap, and never do.

Destroy : Bad Moon Rising and the awful Death Valley '69.

"NYC Sonic Youth Cult Of Art": to be fair, this shd be "Cult of the NYC Sonic Youth Cult Of Art", cuz to them — as opposed to their disciples? — it's like "Madonna, George Maciunas, Meat Puppets? it's all rock'n'roll to me"

If anyonae but SY had produced Silver Sessions, they would have been brilliant. As it is, avoid them. DV69 is indeed great, with Lunch at the height of her spotty powers.

They're the worlds most overground underground band, bless 'em. Classic I suppose. Daydream Nation is great precisely because the sprawl dilutes the attitude until wimps like me don't want to slap them any more. For the 'real thing' I'd take Bad Moon Rising just for "Brave Men Run (In My Family)". EVOL and Sister are good, yeah yeah, never actually listen to them though. After DN they almost turn into a singles band for a bit - "Dirty Boots" is mainstream and ace, "Kool Thing" is apalling, "100%" and "Youth Against Fascism" are the brilliant sound of them trying SO HARD to sell out, and then they didn't manage it and I've kind of lost track now.

I like songs like 'Silver Rocket' but the fact is, I don't believe Sonic Youth. Don't they make the kind of music you should be driven to by DESPERATION? And does anyone really believe they are desperate?

Search: "Brave Men Run", Daydream Nation, "Dirty Boots", Dirty, Washing Machine

Destroy: most of EVOL and Goo (to me, both the epitome of generic indie rock of their respective eras), Lydia Lunch, Lee's vox

Anybody seen SY live recently? I last saw them in the mid 90s and they were remarkably good ... Couldn't believe the number of people who walked out on them during the prolonged squalls of white noise & feedback. And does anyone remember the South Bank Show that was split between Daydream Nation era SY, & Spillane era John Zorn - Now *that* was entertainment ... I'm still pissed off at myself for taping over it 14 years ago.

BTW, who was their greatest drummer? Bob Bert or Steve Shelley?

If I'm anything to go by, the indie hordes knew full well that EVOL and Sister were meant to be "the *classic*" albums and avoided them for just that reason. How punky of us.

Or is this a continuation of the fallacy that punke rocke somehow equals the GENUINE WORKING CLASS MOVEMENT OF THE PEOPLE?

The most cutting edge music comes not from desperation, but from boredom. A good deal of Sonic Youth- like the two movements they helped inspire (shoegazing in the UK and grunge in the US) - had far less to do with desperation, than longing for transcendance from boredom.

And oh yes, Ciccone Youth kick ass. Especially the video- which I bet really was recorded in one of those Boardwalk "Star In Your Own Video!" type places so common in the late 80s...

SEARCH: I'm ever-so undiscriminating abt my SY recs - like 'em all, pretty much - but I'd put in a special word for Lee Ranaldo's contributions: the group's leading experimentalist turns out to be their most conventionally romantic/moving songwriter! And I dig his singing more than Thurston or Kim's.

DESTROY: If pushed, the first alb and ' Washing Machine', the latter a sort of compromise between the pseudo-blues of 'Experimental Jet Set' (their most underrated alb) and the post-rock sprawl of 'Thousand Leaves'. And much as I like some of his discs, am puzzled as to why Jim O'Rourke has now become the fifth member of SY, and playing bass of all things. Saying that I'm looking forward to the upcoming SY/JO 'modern classical' gig at the RFH - just to see HOW they go abt it, if nothing else - and I've read somewhere that on the night they're going to be joined by John Zorn and Anthony Braxton - can this be true?

I tend to think that when it came to fried, weird punk/Krautrock/whatever music, Trumans Water's first few albums make for better listening these days than the bulk of SY's material. Feels fresher, somehow.

I never got into Sonic Youth because I hated all the people I knew who liked them, and because I hated what little I heard from them. I've heard a bit more lately, and file them firmly in the category of bands whose appeal I can understand, but that I'm still not very interested in. The guitar "wash" is so lethargic and half-assed, without any real intensity. Maybe I'll appreciate them when I'm thirty. Maybe it's one of those things where "you just had to be there". Maybe not.

But do you really think Sonic Youth even seem bored? Most of their songs sound like they're supposed to be 'intense' and those that reflect a kind of ennui, such as Teenage Riot, seem just as contrived as their contrived intensity. There's no foothold - they always seem to be able to maintain control - in fact, they seem to have to maintain control even when they DON'T want to. Therefore, no possibility of identification with them. Too closed. Agree with Dave M. above.

"have you ever been listening to _washing machine_ and felt you were in the presence of a superior being?"

"when i was 17, man, all the time."

i feel only pity for all those who do not believe and more for those who are too cool to still believe.

When I was 17, playing Sister would result in the feeling of being in the presence of a higher power. So how can something like Washing Machine affect me?

make no mistake, they redefined the guitar. they didn't simply dumb down branca for rock audiences (which someone could argue the velvets did re lamonte young), they added their own signature with new prepared guitar textures and tunings and ecstatic dissonant climaxes. they went from the post-pil jamming on the first ep to the mix of hardcore punk and no wave and dark noise on the first album to the industrial grind/shimmer of bad moon rising to the blissful intimate genderfuck of evol (generic??? want to argue that case?) to the rock-from-another-planet of sister. vocals and lyrics added a twisted but relevant dimension. and that's just the 80s.

ignoring daydream nation, which i've discussed elsewhere (read that thread, kate?), they continued to signify when they went mainstream. despite their numerous obvious errors, they continued to make inspiring work. dirty is not at all a watering down of any of their ideas. the instrumental breaks are constructed entirely differently than in their other work. the noise is used entirely in the service of abrasive, challenging songs. and how it is used! they have continued to display moments of genius in their post- washing machine work. they have unfortunately released a glut of product in recent years, only some of it as exciting as their best work. yet to simply dismiss the band, as it has become fashionable to do in indie circles (cf smiths backlash in uk), is just absurd. the best parts of goodbye 20th century are truly great.

pinefox: if it was anything like their montreal set last summer, it must have been divine. could you explain exactly what you dislike about public enemy, sonic youth, and iron maiden? anything beyond "tunelessness?" i am genuinely curious. i'm not even sure that tunefulness is the primary appeal of "to here knows when" or even "suffer little children."

My Sonic Youth Top Five:

1. Sister
2. Bad Moon Rising
3. "Kool Thing" (only really great if you read the Kim Gordon profile of LL Cool J for Spin, which inspired it)
4. Experimental Jet Set, Trash and No Star
5. Goodbye 20th Century

I'm actually shocked nobody brought up that last one, whether pro or con. I think it's fantastic, really beautiful in parts and really ugly/beautiful in others. Much better than any "regular" album they've put out since Goo.

Oh and Phil, do you know where I can find that LL profile?

That said, I think their career arc is pretty interesting -- starting weird and then getting conventional (by their standards, anyway) and then getting weird again, except that the weirdness on the other side is so much better than the early stuff.

I like the Sister-Daydream-Goo-Dirty quartet and then A Thousand Leaves best. Also liked Murray Street more than most I think.

"DY" is incredible, though. the kim gordon tracks especially - "kissability" is just filthy. i think "washing machine" may be undervalued - the first song on side two (can't remember the name) is their best Pop track.

People hating on Murray Street? Are you fucking kidding me?! Murray Street is an OUTSTANDING album that 99% of indie rock bands would have to consider themselves LUCKY to accomplish.

Wow; I don't know, Kilian. I mean I don't know how to respond to your disdain for Daydream nation. LIke, normally when I post around here I sort of try to acquit myself well and like mount intelligent defenses and stuff. But fuck it if you don't get Daydream Nation - one of the most consistently fascinating documents of four human beings picking up two guitars, a bass guitar, and a drum kit; - if you, kilian murphy, can't listen to that record and find meaning in it... well, I dunno. Fuck it, I guess.

But Christ, Sonic Youth! Ah well, whatever.

he's only saying that their long players, if played back-to-back, would start to grate: i think this could be said about most long players by most bands (though not many got to make them).

a couple of Mr. Snrub's "destroys" strike me as so counter-productive that i'm assuming he's playing devil's advocate. but generally, isn't arguing about this song or that song just a bit like arguing about spare change in the case of this band ?

I'd always thought that they were presenting their image as a send-up: "We love our indie roots, and still we're not afraid to let you know it." Still, many people love SY cause they can connect certain songs to specific events that happened in their lives. That's not unusual, however.

oh come on: i think its great that some 40 year olds are still making rock music and still having a group that they started with unlike awful 'solo' projects that rockstars have to cash in on their 'fame' (they do have solo projects but just as another thing, SY is always something they all come back to).

that is true, but not for sy
and Jim O'Rourke, after ten years of frantic activity, and he's a rock star ? so sy are looking after him, ok..
but where does so-called Thurstin' f'r Moore get off calling O'Rourke "our Eno" ?

George if thurston did call O'rouke their ''eno'' i'd say its probably a fair comparison: O'rouke makes solo records, collaborations and produces other people's records.

x-post: I thought it was a joke at first but thiking more abt it i think its a half-joke/half-compliment too.

I'd prefer if he got round to focussing on making GOOD records for a change.

i love daydream nation. hence i said:

""DY" is incredible".

"I have trouble following you there.. You think there is bno need for them to have put out so many good albums??"

i used the word "decent" which is different to saying they've released lots of flat out Good albums. most of the post-daydream nation stuff i've heard seems solid, but not worth getting if you already have a couple of the Seriously Good SY records. Most of what they've done sounds like it has a hell of a lot in common with the album before - without much improvement. "Washing Machine" may be an exception.

tbh, daydream nation is the only one that fits into this category.

but people complained that they "didn't rock", or that "the best sonic youth rockers are covers like 'buublegum' or 'hotwire my heart'". Well covering someone else's song is collaboration of a sort too i suppose.

I remember back to when we waited for EVOL and then Sister to come out. Thinking back now, i believe the harmonic language of their alternative guitar rock was in place on those albums, but people who liked typical alternative "rock" just didn't think they went fast enough, etc. I remember thinking songs like 'Catholic Block' 'Pacific Highway' almost did rock, but that the alternative chords were not quite the right chords, and that therefore they 'did not rock' (and the group seemed to be implicitly acknowledging as much with a title like 'Catholic Block' and the act of 'hotwiring' someone else's song)

And then they proved they could and indeed did 'rock' for most people with Daydream Nation (which was a "told you so" moment for people that had had faith in them up till then) and this thread is testament to the fact that that double album is what brings sonic youth fans together, something it seems all their fans can agree on.

and then they got into big business with David Geffen's label. (imo) Goo seems like great comic crossover pop to me, with just enough heaviness. i thought this band was going to save the world from 'heavy metal' at that point.

Unfortunately, it seems Geffen/ grunge/ 'the free market' demanded that Butch Vig produce Dirty as a kind of alt rock manifest, for a new generation of people who liked 'Cool Thing' (which, with Chuck D there was pretty cool).

(And we had to have a loolapolozza (excuse my spelling, but it didn't come to my city or even Auckland (New Zealand), which felt like betrayal). sonic youth had already previously been booked to come to New Zealand but had opted for a support slot for Neil Young for Goo, a year earlier. We understood the economics of their dilemna however and forgave them for no Goo tour.)

(imo) Dirty was sonic youth aiming too low (at the Nirvana market). Maybe it should have been a single album (it came out as a double vinyl lp), or one album for this crowd, one for that, which you can do with 4 different sides of vinyl. Guns and Roses were doing something very similar with 8 sides of vinyl on the same label at the same time. I don't know how Dirty was intended to go, because i suppose everyone was gambling on vinyl vs. cd at that time. It did have five or six songs that i liked on it, but i bought the cd version of it, and so i got fed up with the rest of it. That was where they lost me.

(and the show i saw them do in Christchurch New Zealand in support of Dirty, it was awful, they played _none_ of the songs off Dayderam Nation, but they did play a whole lot of heavy rockers aimed at the metal in the audience, and sonic youth were very condescening to that audience -- uh, sorry, what do you expect from an audience you only play your heavy rockers too ? -- if you don't want kids stage diving off 20 foot PAs at your gigs, why encourage them with that music ? why not change direction on stage and play some of your subtle material ? did you leave those guitars at home ?)

(and lots of bands have been to the South Island of New Zealand since, but not sonic youth)

Death Valley '69
Tom Violence
Shadow of a Doubt
Expressway to Yr Skull
Schizophrenia
Beauty Lies in the Eye
Teen Age Riot
Silver Rocket
The Sprawl
Total Trash
Candle
Computer Age
Dirty Boots
Sugar Kane
Superstar

(77:47, weighted towards melodic tracks with the popular ones from 'Daydream Nation' as a fulcrum - I'd love it if somebody did a latter day disc as I haven't really kept up).

Kool Thing
100%
Creme Brulee
Bull in the Heather
Sweet Shine
Washing Machine
Saucer Like
The Diamond Sea
Sunday
French Tickler
Small Flowers Crack Concrete
NYC Ghosts & Flowers
The Empty Page
Disconnection Notice
Radical Adults Lick Godhead Style

their blatent careerism and continued barking for some sort of icon status, it's pathetic. most good alt. bands hit their stride, did it, recorded it, and then went and did something else. not sonic youth. they're different from everybody else. yeah right.

so they need some talent/ideas, recruit o'rourke who sycophantically barks, and still, just like what Phil said upthread, Murray Street is such feeble garbage, so over the hill

they had this sept 11th event that they
(1) cashed in on shamelessly
and
(2) failed to address in any interesting way on the actual record (oh i forgot, unlike downtown bahgdad, disconnection from isp or electricity can be traumatic for americans if they can't sort it out within a few days)

most everybody i know thinks the same thing about sonic youth -- they should have disbanded years ago, have failed to be relevent except to themselves in the last ten years, are not the alt. flag-bearers for all the other bands they purport to be part of some lineage in, and would appear to be nyc scenester middle-class brats with nothing better to do -- why don't they
(1) grow up
and
(2) shut up

isn't Watt in there in the "tuff-titty rap" ? burning up ? but didn't Watt help them around the studio ? if not, who did help them around the studio ? if they can do that stuff themselves why aren't they trying to save the world with rap/pop type stuff that youth might actually be interested in listening to ?

as to DV69, who wrote the words ? who points the gun ? who co-sings ? the riff's the easiest part of the song .. but "you're right" .. who did that, that great middle section ? the idea .. who's idea ? could they have come up with that idea without all five of them ?

if sy could rock like that then why isn't lunch guesting on seminal sy dross like "society is a hole" from that time ?

i'm not sure why above you indicate that "murray street" necessitated some kind of obligation / intent on the part of the band to address 11 sept? had they addressed it only then could you claim that they "cashed in" on it. but, seeing as how they did not address it directly what, exactly, are they cashing in on? and, could you define "cashing in" for me? i'm not intimately familiar with the sales of recent sy albums, but i have a hard time seeing all 5 band members laughing their way to the bank on however many copies of murray st soundscanned.

from what i've read recently nyc ghosts and flowers, murray street and whatever album comes next are a "new york trilogy" of sorts. i am much happier that "murray street" can exist without 11 sept significations than have it be some trite fucking bruce springsteen bullshit.

i often fall into a camp of "x band used to be so good", but belaboring the point really won't convince anyone...

My bridge from Smashing Pumpkins/Soundgarden type stuff when I was fourteen (still love all that, actually) into what was then a novel and unnatural idea to me - that dissonance could sound really great (bridge album: Experimental Jet Set, for what it's worth).

I detest nyc ghosts and flowers, love Sister and DN madly, and love everything else enough to never tire of listening to it.

About image - frankly, they could be the most pretentious indier-than-thou fucks that have ever walked this earth, but the way Cross The Breeze makes me feel when turned up loud outweighs all of that for me.

why call it murray street w/out risking linking the two ? and is disconnection notice not about events in new york ? is it an attitude thing ? 'teenage riot' part two, as some have suggested ?

"cashing in" is a bit strong, but i was expecting something topical or political for part two or three of the 'nyc trilogy' -- they are there, they admit it, i look forward to part three, but was dissapointed by stuff like "radical adults suck .." on part two -- in fact i get angry, visceral for it -- to me they're a different band now, and maybe i'm left feeling dissapointed at perceived indifference in their music to to many things -- perhaps i should drop my lack of indifference to them

i guess that the old sonic youth visceral experiences i have had with ''cross the breeze' will have to wait for part three -- i hope that happens, but sometimes it feels like waiting for part three of the second star wars trilogy

have you some C8703 list you could post ? since the live stuff seems to be what people still like here, and they have a formidable arsenal in their back-catalog.

i've thought about this a lot, mainly be reflecting on various O'Rourke ad Eno projects

i've lost the latest maybe late Stereolab cd (with the 'cul de sac' imagery), but i remember it being sequenced alternating Mcyntire produced/ O'Rourke produced, and i can't quite remember whether it was the O'Rourke re-sequenced on it's own that i like the most, but i really liked one of the sequences a lot more than the other, and i think it was the O'Rourke 'side'

it was a bit like an album where you got to enjoy the "how is the enoffication ?" thing because of the enormous differences between the two sides -- at least it clearly demonstrated how much producers can influence the sound of a group

I think of the key Eno albums of the '70 and the subtle use of synth, as though wiggling a synth filter could be one of those semi-chance operations. jamming real time with most synths is hard, with the EMS thing Eno had being an exception, an exception to almost all synths post-'79 and most other brands before it)

i remember Thustin citing Roxy's first post-Eno album (Stranded, which i still does have at least some Eno ideas or methods on it) as his #3 album of 'influence' in an interview somehwere, so presumably Thustin's a fan of most of that Eno crowd stuff

so why can't SY strip down a bit and become a laptop band ? (and maybe find touring easier ?)

Most rock groups run for some time, admit they've used up their best ideas, stop. Why this eternal youth cult ? A prize for against the odds attitude ? Why doesn't thurst'in do the normal corporate wisdom, move into A&R and actually make some sort of difference, like Ecstatic Peace! and Protest Records, great praiseworthy eforts, (admittedly deferring to others' talents).
How did Kim's art installation go last year ? At least it sounded fun.
But in stark contrast to side-projects and stereolab, thustin's own indie sacred cow group sonic youth, hasn't that been well and truly milked out ?

If i was to see them live, would it be better than the good songs on the records ? When i did see them supposedly "improvise" live on that xpressway song it was fifteen minutes of nowhere. I don't want to see some greatest hits from twenty years ago effort either (just like i don't want to see Bryan Ferry in 2004), and the "strictly 20th c. show" or "strictly rock show" posturing i read about sounded like it took the fun out of both appearances.

Anyway, the best:
Daydream Nation (everyone agrees - hooray!)
Sister
EVOL
Goo
Dirty

honorable mentions to Washing Machine and Experimental/Jet Set/Trash/No Star. A Thousand Leaves was fairly useless, and I haven't gotten around to the last couple records. People seem to approve of Murray Street, maybe I'll get that one...

It occurs to me that the "sonic youth" brand is such a catchy one that they'd rather not drop it, but how about franchising it to some young deserving sonically talented guitar-lap-topper mutants (by which i mean hiring some good songwriters, electro-free-improv composers, etc.., some non-NYC 21st-century youthful people for a bit of positive discrimination)

(anyway, i want O'Rourke to help them become a proper laptop/ guitar band/ collective, since their guitar tunings and "media dialog" seem very exhausted in 2004, by them anyway)

"It seems to me that a lot of the bitterness that gets directed at them - particularly at Thurston - for doing their elder statesmen schtick is coming from people who are just bitter that *anyone* would condescend to adopt such a mantle. "

that would be a hilarious comment from said elder statespeople if it were as immaculate and funny and otm as the whitey album was back then, comment along the lines of "indie" going grunge/electro-rock, and i would be keen to hear it, the whitey album perhaps finally vindicated as the fantastic timepiece it may be, prophet of punk idm.

i'm not bitter about anything particularly here, but i have noticed that i-know-more-records-than-you wise old man thing rolled out for years -- that would be fun if they made it funny -- ie if they hadn't been so po-faced, condescening and conservative in their earnestness all those times they weren't being funny,.. condescending and rude, not all the time, but still often "high art".

i just wished they'd taken more of the people on the comparitively intelligent course they were on circa '90.
In 2003, it's the "free" eps here vs. "artistic freedom" on Geffen there -- i just want to hear some worldly lyrics about current politics in these very strange times -- i want sonic youth to say something about US foreign policy, something i would consider actually taking a risk (as opposed to that "cool" = "slack" work ethic), and i want them to do it on Geffen, not the special EPs (ie not perceived as a throwaway/ work in progress/ improv. sess.)

reflecting on Daydream Nation, it is i suppose by defn. partly inward looking -- well, how inward looking is the american media right now ? watching CNN, Fox and BBC tv, the differences in emphases are quite staggering -- well i suppose everybody who's got cable in the US keeps half an eye on the BBC, right ?

"Sonic Youth", just say something about the current situation, do it on y'r major label Geffen, and get worldwide distribution. That would be what i would expect from some "intelligensia" elder-statesman, especially with said "group" having some A&R input into Geffen.
Rock music that communicates some of the doubts so many people all over the world have about the direction the US is taking right now, uses rock music to get around the media-brick-wall of American media, speaks to general college radio age people and hopefully provokes thought, rather than pandering to collector-completists and critics.

from what you have said Shakey, this experienced well-connected 'round-the-block group ought to be able to do some of that, maybe providing contrast to the sadly blighted-by-circumstance Murray Street. If i didn't think they once did have more stuff to say then _i_ wouldn't expect anything -- that's why i'm dissapointed with the seemingly politically ambiguous Murray Street. Rock music has been such a great political ideas generator in the past, however idealistic some of those ideas. Here's a band with alleged power and creative asylum within Geffen, so why aren't they on MTV ? Why not suspend high art or at least include it in a broader discourse ?

(at least in the UK stereolab can present as real or mock marxists -- would blunt political content from sonic youth however hypothetical be "un-patriotic" right now ? what _is_ their position ? please, someone point me to an interview or reference, anything really, where thust'in has something to say about important stuff like current US foreign policy, an interview where he's not simply hyping stuff like O'Rourke's inclusion or his sept 11 experience)

then you would want New York City Ghosts And Flowers, an explicit comment/attack on the anti-hobo/anti-culture policies of Mayor Giuliani that's beautiful, poetic and angry at the same time. and a fuck of a lot more cogent and insightful than 'Youth Against Fascism'.

I love all their albums. Their last five or so most of all.

I recently read Reynolds' c.1988 (?) Daydream Nation essay. That was bad too, alas.

(it's stuff like that US attitude where they have a "World Series" that's a sporting event that's completely domestic, stuff like that, which doesn't make the 4 cable sports channels where i live, doesn't feature large on the BBC or CNN either).
OK, they're "an american band" (like Grand Funk Railroad),.. is that it ?

(anyway, am going to sleep now, so see ya)

no, you're right. on those criteria they should no longer be allowed to detune their guitars. i'm off to throw all the post-Dirty albums on the bonfire right now. how could i have let a collusion of inspiring noise, intriguing melody and abmirable creativity blind me to this essential truth?

but i have to shut up anyway and get some sleep

I wonder what of percentage of sy fandom is US people, and if that US chunk has risen or shrunk.

anyway stevie and andrew,
thanks,
goodnight.

pinefox do you like music that doesn't need melody?

Speaking of, there's not much opinion on this thread regarding the SYR records aside from Goodbye 20th Century. I've only heard Goodbye 20th Century which is so awful it's almost good.

where did you read reynolds on 'daydream nation', the pf?

one of the members of Le Tigre had plenty of civil disobedience stuff happening in response to Giuliani's night life policies. If Sy had a song attacking Giuliani for [nyc ghosts] good for them. But that song on that album [nyc ghosts] came before Giuliani's new roles. So it is an inward song.

Geffen's meant to provide SY an oasis for artistic freedom. I won't believe that until sy say something about the whitehouse and it's supposedly Zionist/Christian direction and larger scale plans for [Nile through to the Euphrates]. Can that happen on that label ?
They don't have to do songs about anything, but assuming that consigns the sy brand from what it once was, a symbol for freedom for discussion about real ideas (ie other than love songs) to merely another annoying brand name.

The music might strike you as nice, but i thought they were more ambitious than just 'alternative' as in tunings.

Pat Metheny's 'zero tolerance for silence' got a nice bumper sticker from thurstin about how innovative it was, yet even w/out any words, the cd was distributed using alternatives to the trad. Geffen food chain,.. because it was "uncompromising" ? SYR are obv. part of a similarly different distribution chain -- i had to buy all my SYR eps from american mail order. The "Protest Records" initiative _is_ admirable, even if sy themselves didn't have a suitable song on the site. Yet both SYR and PR seem handily arms-length to Geffen to me.

If sy are into being revivalist, then let's not forget that there used to be a genre called "protest music". Laurie Anderson's breakthrough album was a protest record for instance, somewhat US-inward looking but otm with "O Superman" and "From the Air" and "Big Science".
(Of course songs like "Once in a Lifetime" and "O Superman" were much bigger hits in the UK and other countries where people might have had a different view of this hand-on-heart "land of the free" guff, though i'm sure plenty of patriotic americans are embarressed by their current whitehouse)

If sy don't want to take things that far, ok, but to me, having followed their output _as_ _it_ _came_ _out_ for 20 years, there has been a clear change of direction towards bougeouis "brat-rock", .. not "frat rock", but certainly rite-of-passage indie college music, not much of the punk-inspired ferocity "Kill yr Idols" or the more obvious "complaint music" of daydream nation, more "music dept." music.

Like REM, have fans gone on to become the parents band, not the youths ? REM are retiring or maybe re-configuring. They recognise you can do so much, get listened to by one group of people only at the expense of other audiences, as time goes by.

I'm a youth of roughly the same times as SY, and i think the branding and implicit radicalism have all become "mature" or measured, but it's this inward focus on america that upsets me when i think of them once being a quite independent force.

And a nyc trilogy ? Revivalist attempts to align with radical poets and artists that happened to come from the nyc of years ago will not make them radical, and de facto radicalism, like revisionists,.. one has to be suspicious.

(and the stereolab/sy laptop groop/groupthink idea, it was a joke, although i suspect stereolab egos would be much more ameanable to collaboration, in the interests of greater good/impact, with O'Rourke the obv. facilitator)

when wasn't this a careerist strategy ? and apathy about what ?

that's true. i keep forgetting that, imagining (as many old 'british punk' fans did) that punk was a musical reaction against establishment rather than the then-demonised establishment music (eg the Sex Pistols 'anarchy', Thatcher), although of course, the british punks put myriad different fans' grievances on the front page as expressions of anger/ frustration about something -- whichever, even protrayal of apathy/nihilism, it won't be misconstrued as guidance in america, misconstrued as advocacy of free expression,
ie these rock stars' apathy won't be misconstrued in the role model way that it has been for countless 'tough' rock bands

so in the "year that punk broke" in the US economy, you had to be apathetic about achieving any sort of mob manifestation of youthful anger/ frustration in the dominant media -- does this sound right ? you had to be cynical that things would be taken anywhere by any of this musical activity anyway ?

sy in their public appearances did always appear pessimistic about achieving anything beyond teenage rebellion, and that as if it was some sort of joke

the british punks -- well there were years of rock re-thinks in the '80s, with all sorts of splinters, coups and failures, and some of this oi yob stuff even, all with politics emblazened to suit their various ambitions

and so sonic youth, recognising the futility of changing minds, had their 'broken' or 'american punk' 'punk year', their MTV time, and now they're revivalist .. for whom ? bob dylan, or "new weird america", or musical heroes (idols) who haven't had a fair go because of the notorious commercial jazz industry (for example)

is it because the economies were different or because you can forget about trying to change anything in america anyway (given what happened to the hippies who at least had vietnam to complain about) ?

so it's as though they predicted the apathy and even presented as apathetic -- happy to be a music journalist's cult band ?

so "kill y'r idols" -- who were the idols ? was this just competitive or posturing, not aesthetic ? careerist-punk ? a catchy original punk slogan now abandoned, i reckon

but now we have another vietnam, with nyc the only smoking gun -- i'm curious to see where sy will go now, with nyc trilogy part3 beckoning, and with the media focus of Murray Street speaking for itself

sonic youth _is_ a catchy punk slogan, and finally people particularly younger people in the US have plenty to complain about again, so it's like full circle to a proper fit this time for the call-to-arms, and nyc pt3 will be as big as you's, your disillusion

maybe i should give it a break,
a thread "top 20 sonic youth songs and why" thread would interest me

i don't want to block others talking about sonic youth around here and i may have been a bit impolite,
but i'm real curious as to what various sy songs mean to different people

someone start a positive sonic youth thread and i promise i won't interupt, i'll do something else

it would be better if it wasn't me that started that new sy thread i want to,
but someone else is reading this hopefully

(b.t.w. i think i've made (incomplete) perfect sense, i might not be at all correct but i've left out some of the connections i'd thought of suggesting later on -- it is interesting to discuss this band -- people do seem to have a hesitancy to discuss the many aspects to sonic youth -- nah, it's just me)

Search songs: Schizophrenia, Genetic, Cotton Crown, Hey Joni, Providence, Skip Tracer, Brave Men Run, Brother James, Inhuman, Becuz, Sympathy For the Strawberry, Rain on Tin, Expressway To Yr Skull, Shadow of a Doubt, Hoarfrost, Eric's Trip, Free City Rhymes, Anagrama

Keep in mind that there's also a huge amount of shitty SY material out there. Be warned.

Oddly enough, I had a conversation this morning with a co-worker who said he used to like SY but thinks they took a major nosedive with those two albums. For him, SY was never better than the five-year period between Daydream Nation and Dirty. Of course, he's five years older than me and I think those were probably the first three SY albums he ever heard, back when he was a teenager.

(And meanwhile, though I like Dirty and Goo okay, I hardly ever listen to them.)

Evol
Confusion is Sex
Sister
Bad Moon Rising
Experimental Jet Set
Daydream Nation
A Thousand Leaves
Dirty
Goo
NYC Ghosts & Flowers
Washing Machine

(Note: I don't think Sonic Youth has yet released a truly bad album so even the last five on my list have some great moments.)

AHEM:

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drd800/d808/d80872xi202.jpg

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drd200/d284/d28473xgh9r.jpg

my favorite SY albums are dirty and confusion is sex, weirdly enough. i still can't sit through daydream nation without falling asleep.

I'm deadly serious in this opinion by the way. She's not so totally stoopid that she sings *that* badly. It's a cool druggy "i don't care, gimme what i want" attitude. Dirty's 'Swimsuit Issue' is a brilliant example; her vocals are so atrociously bad it's obvious that it's part of a style she's aware of & in attempting to achieve.

But, I love almost all of their albums.

http://www.mp3search.ru/album.html?id=19676

Here, Matts off-key jazz accompanies her off-key verbal meanderings..

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/news/upcoming_releases/sonic_youth_-_sonic_life.html

I wasn't so hot on the EP when I first heard it (just post Confusion Is Sex) but it's aged nicely. Will be interesting to see how it's received the 3rd time around.

Hi dlp!

http://rateyourmusic.com/album_images/s409133.jpg

i'm having an argument with a friend who says he doesn't like sy - his argument basically consists of "how many of their songs can you sing? i bet not any" (he is not a luddite, he's into lots of good stuff, but has a real block with certain bands, artier ones i guess). i seem to spend half my life wandering around singing sy songs under my breath but i think i'm a bit too close to it and half the time i'm singing the texture not the tune, if that makes any sense. so... request suggestions for a melody-based sy comp?

i'm not sure if i've already commented somewhere on this thread, but of course classic.

and search pretty much the whole catalogue. at the very least, there's something interesting going on in all the records. don't really bother with the nyc ghosts and flowers thing though

Jaymc made this poppy SY mix for me:

1. Expressway to Yr Skull (1986, Evol)
2. Schizophrenic (1987, Sister)
3. Teen Age Riot (1988, Daydream Nation)
4. Cross the Breeze (1988, Daydream Nation)
5. Kool Thing (1990, Goo)
6. Tunic (Song for Karen) (1990, Goo)
7. Sugar Kane (1992, Dirty)
8. Bull in the Heather (1994, Experimental Jet Set, Trash and No Star)
9. Skip Tracer (1995, Washing Machine)
10. Diamond Sea (Edit) (1995, Washing Machine)
11. Sunday (1997, A Thousand Leaves)
12. The Empty Page (2002, Murray Street
13. Unmade Bed (2004, Sonic Nurse
14. Reena (2006, Rather Ripped)
15. Incinerate (2006, Rather Ripped)

Hmm, how about Star Power?

(In addition to Jordan's list)

"how many of their songs can you sing? i bet not any" (he is not a luddite, he's into lots of good stuff, but has a real block with certain bands, artier ones i guess).

Is your friend's name Geir Hongro?

heheh! no...

that comp looks good, a good start point anyway, thank you
i had wish fulfilment and my friend goo and madonna, sean and me down too
good?

Madonna, Sean & Me = Expressway To Yr Skull :)

Tis good though yeah.

re: NYCGF is to be entirely avoided. I don't generally adore Lee's foregrounded beat trips, but I think the title track on it is pretty thrillingly built, levelled, and released; the rest of the album is mostly meh or worse, though.

haha i am useless
that's what i get for trying to do 4590 things at once

euh, that mix above is like an amalgam of most of my least favorite SY tracks from those albums. except 'expressway to yr skull,' which is possibly the best poppy song SY have ever done.

i really love their 'hated' albums, experimental jet set and NYCGAF... 'sweet shine' off ejt&ns just floors me every. single. time. kim's singing is sublime.

experimental jet set is sometimes my favourite

Some glorious day I'll have Dirty on CD.

(Somewhat surprised Jaymc's SY pop mix didn't include "Little Trouble Girl!")

I thought this would be about the Daydream Nation Deluxe cd that leaked yesterday.

Other songs I would include as tuneful, well-composed SY tunes (sometimes maybe a bit on the proggy side of SY as opposed to the 'pop' side):
"Candle"
"Dirty Boots"
"Disappearer"
"Wish Fulfillment"
maybe "Disconnection Notice"
"New Hampshire"

(By and large, though, there's not usually a whole lot going on melodically, which may be what emsk's friend is getting at. They have tunes but they're usually very basic ones.)

I made a similar comp for Dominique Leone but I never sent it to him, it went:

1. Intro
2. Teenage Riot
3. Schizophrenia
4. Tom Violence
5. Star Power
6. Eric's Trip
7. Dissapear
8. The Sprawl
9. Candle
10. Mote
11. Shadow of a Doubt
12. Sugar Kane
13. Wish Fulfillment
14. Pacific Coast Highway
15. Cotton Crown
16. Xpressway to yr Skull

basically the most hummable numbers from the 86-91 or so period. And anyone who says they don't write catchy singable songs to me will have to hear some of my singing, and it usually starts with "I went away, to see an old friend of mine..."

I like your comp a lot.

"Green Light" is another song I love that hardly anyone mentions.

I didn't mean for the mix to be a "Sonic Youth goes pop" mix per se, just a good intro to the band for someone who hadn't heard much of them before. By and large, that tended to be pop-oriented stuff.

I did almost put "Star Power" on there, though.

Daydream Nation live next month: SO EXCITED YOU GUYS.

Expressway To Your Skull

Shadow of A Doubt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSc8957FoSQ

Expressway to Yr Skull

or Madonna, Sean and Me

best song ever, especially on vinly, because it goes on forever.

starfield road

Their first EP is an absolute monument in post-punk worthy of rubbing shoulders with PIL in my opinion.

Yes! I feel like one of those arbitrary revisionists who always piss me off, but I swear that first EP is, in hindsight, the best thing they ever did.

worthy of rubbing shoulders with PIL

Glad I've never heard it then.

Shadow of A Doubt:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSc8957FoSQ

cool, never seen that before. that's one of my favorite sy tracks

so, um, SYR 7 ???

Saw it on vinyl the other day, 1 song on each side. Anybody heard it?

bump, dammit.

>>I made a similar comp for Dominique Leone but I never sent it to him, it went:

1. Intro
2. Teenage Riot
3. Schizophrenia
4. Tom Violence
5. Star Power
6. Eric's Trip
7. Dissapear
8. The Sprawl
9. Candle
10. Mote
11. Shadow of a Doubt
12. Sugar Kane
13. Wish Fulfillment
14. Pacific Coast Highway
15. Cotton Crown
16. Xpressway to yr Skull<<

wow this is grebt..

>basically the most hummable numbers

but i thought Juno said they were JUST NOIZE!???

I don't think I'd describe 5 out of the 8? minutes of Mote as hummable actually

you can hum whatever you want! win win!

so, um, SYR 7 ???

I haven't heard the music yet, but I like the sleeve:

"Thurston Moore. Goodbye 20th Century, Goodbye Talent."

http://www.saucerlike.com/articles.php?x=display&id=14

Thank you.

Battery Park show broadcasting live on WFMU right now :D

just started, they're on their first song

This is awesome! Thanks for the tip.

no prob, I was stuck at work just a few blocks away from where they were playing! so I was glad I got to listen to it

I wonder why they didn't broadcast the Feelies ... ?

oh shit they're broadcasting...now???

okay what link am I supposed to click on? You guys are holding out.

Is this the right link? What do I do when I get here?
http://blog.wfmu.org/freeform/2008/06/reminder-sonic.html

Help please thanx

(1 hour ago)

it's over now, it was from about 5 to 6:15

I'm sure they'll archive it but it probably won't be up right away

the concert was INCREDIBLE! and with Mark Ibold on bass? I'd neven seen them live, and I was gobsmacked. Thurston was amusing too - when Kim forgot the words - "she's injecting the lyrics now". When he friend a guitar cable - "we need bluetooth up in this piece".

One thing's for sure though: Moore is enjoying the relative freedom that comes with a return to indie-dom. "It feels great," he told Rock & Roll Daily. "The last four or five records we did were just so compromised by that [major label] situation. But that's the way it goes."

asshole. Those last three records, at least, were fantastic. But I guess that was just because the major label made them do it.

I don't think he's saying they aren't good records.

I agree, but I still wonder what he means by compromised. Obviously Geffen is not forcing them to make records with big radio singles.

I get that, but what's he mean by saying they were "compromised"? xp lol

who did they sign with?

article is coy (decision isn't public yet), but suggests either Domino or Matador

Where's this article?

pitchfork lol

Yeah, aside from Rather Ripped's much shorter song running times, I'm really at a loss on what the label might've leaned on them to do on the last 4 albums, especially compared to the pressure the band was likely under circa Dirty. I always just figured, they have so many outlets for instrumental and/or abrasive noisy stuff with the SYR series and all those side projects that the proper albums were the way they were by choice.

I think this means he wants the next one to sound like Bull Tongue.

Maybe he just means the experience of having to work with a major label took some of the fun out of releasing those albums.

What a fucktard. Sonic Youth are easily the most out-there band signed to a major these days.

maybe it is you who are the fucktard

If Moore thinks A Thousand Leaves, Sonic Nurse, Murray Street, and Rather Ripped are "compromised," then more artists should cut deals with major labels this cutthroat.

Actually the key example here is NYC Ghosts & Flowers surely. I suspect Dan is right - perhaps it was things like being locked into a particular release time, or having to meet with major label publicists, or not having any control over their album-promotion etc. etc.

i was under the impression the band chose to release all of their last 5 albums in May or June on purpose to do tour/promo in the summer while their kids weren't in school.

so changing the subject, is SYR 7: J'Accuse/Ted Hughes going to get a CD release? I don't mind downloading a vinyl rip, but my numerology/OCD complex with the SYR series is now totally misaligned with the latest SYR 8 CD! FUCK! HELP!

You must suffer forever. It is written.

;-)

KERFUFFLE

How is the recent one with Merzbow?

Mackro the solution is to repurchase all of the SYR series on vinyl ;-)

How is the recent one with Merzbow?

fucking amazing. best piece of the SYR series thus far.

Is there much Merzbow in it? I've found him surprisingly low-key in his recent collaborations. Is it ambient droney stuff or more noisy? At all accessible?

cool, hadn't heard about this

The video clip on the sonicyouth.com site doesn't excite me much. Is it all like that?

"The video clip on the sonicyouth.com site doesn't excite me much."

So it goes.

On a different note: In the Fishtank is super great.

I'm actually a little amazed at how well A Thousand Leaves is holding up for me.

I'm so rad and controversial:

Swirlies did a better job at being Sonic Youth than Sonic Youth did at being Sonic Youth.

way rad

So... Is Simon Werner a Disparu any good?

Yes. If you like the SYR stuff "in general." Sure, they're all different but the vibe is "the non-song stuff." It's solid.

i just streamed it somewhere, but it sounded pretty nice to me. will have to get the real thing at some point.

imo SYR9 is is the best SYR to date and is much closer to "a Sonic Youth album without vocals" than anything else in teh series

http://www.spin.com/articles/kim-gordon-and-thurston-moore-announce-split

If the demise of R.E.M. didn't put the final nail in the '90s indie-rock dream, this news sure will: Sonic Youth super-couple Kim Gordon and Thurston Moore have split up after 27 years of marriage — and the future of the band they've played in together since 1981 is unclear.

The pair confirmed the news in a statement from their Matador Records rep that reads, "Musicians Kim Gordon and Thurston Moore, married in 1984, are announcing they have separated. Sonic Youth, with both Kim and Thurston involved, will proceed with its South American tour dates in November. Plans beyond that tour are uncertain. The couple has requested respect for their personal privacy and does not wish to issue further comment."

:( :( :( :( :( :(

http://i.imgur.com/BlYRv.jpg

holy fucking shit, sure didn't see that coming.

i remember one time on april 1st someone posted an announcement like this on alt.music.sonic-youth at the height of my SY fandom and for a brief second i was like NOOO so i'm totally reliving that right now

amy phillips finally got her wish...

http://www.villagevoice.com/2002-07-09/music/sonic-euthanasia/

oh god please can that article never be discussed on ILM again til the end of time

haha sorry

You guys, this is really socking me in the gut. Not so much that SY might never make another record, but I really hate to see these two break up.

yeah there's something really heartbreaking to me about couples who stay together that long, seem so well matched, and then suddenly decide they're not going to stick it out all the way to the end.

ditto

huge bummer

couldn't they have at least waited til we grew up and moved out

We'll find out, I suppose, but this sounds like staying together until the child is ready to go to college...

I guess they were just waiting until baby's first band: http://bignils.bandcamp.com/album/sibling

keep ya head up coco

holy hell she's 17?

the reverse winger

lol

aw, that's a drag :(

this sucks

Man, what chance do the rest of us have?

http://cdn.babble.com/famecrawler/files/2010/06/al-gore-tipper-gore-kiss.jpg

There is no hope, y'all.

holy hell she's 17?

I had that reaction too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADSNoXvw4vY

"I guess they were just waiting until baby's first band: http://bignils.bandcamp.com/album/sibling";

too much arguments about who is responsible for the result? lol

what's next, oprah and gayle?

Man, what chance do the rest of us have?

― EveningStar (Sund4r)

haha this was literally my first reaction. these people had stuck together longer than my parents, 95 percent of my friends' parents, etc etc.

that big nils thing would be totally in place on any of those old kill rock stars comps

NO MORE PANTY LINES

seems like a bummer but you never know with such big personalities they may benefit from splitting

coco's theme is basicly them saying uh-oh

I'm not gonna understand if SY stays together, w/ Kim still listening to T's stupid stage patter.

So...can we talk about this "well matched" thing. I've never understood how they could sit in the same room together for more than like five minutes? Is Thurston just mis-represented by every video image ever created, in all of which he comes off like one of the most annoying humans ever invented...?

it takes one to know one

Thurston comes off like a goober a lot, but I've always found him to be a totally mellow and easy-going dude irl.

cause that's exactly what i thought about Kim
xpost

someone give me kim's #?

haha i'd be all like uh even more than usual

damn dude she old, and a moms.

Don't get me wrong: Kim was pretty irritating too, but jesus, I remember being shocked by how fucking annoying Thurston was on a pretty much permanent basis...

coco's theme is basicly them saying uh-oh

― Das Unbehagen in der Kultur (jdchurchill), Friday, October 14, 2011 10:43 PM (19 minutes ago) Bookmark

well she was at that age where kids tend to learn how to say "uh oh" and then say it constantly, every time they drop something or fall or whatever. my son did that a lot for a while a few months ago and it made me remember the FK song.

we still have Yo La Tengo and Matmos

and yoko to remind us

At least Pomplamoose are still together.

i spent a fair amount of time with the whole band once, when i was working on a piece for the wire six or seven years ago

lee ranaldo was super nice and awesome - he even offered to write my article when he saw me freaking out about it ('we'll just repeat the same word over and over--they'll love it')
steve shelley was nice
thurston moore was nice, but distant
kim gordon was very icy with me, and barely gave me the time of day

Fuck, I love Lee Ranaldo.

If this means more Lee material, then bless us all!

hmmm . . . let me guess geeta u r a gurl
not like that Should matter

the david browne bio gives some pretty good insight into their contrasting personalities and how they operate as a group/business. but yeah thurston's obnoxious extroverted side and kim's aloof nature always seemed very yin/yang to me.

lee's big song-based solo album is already on the way in early '12, so we got that goin for us

also isn't this how dinosaur jr is
j is a dick
and lou rules?
maybe this is at the edge of being any comparison

i thought j was autistic and lou was emo?

murph: sophisticated center

lee is freed pig

i do like lee songs tbh

we all do tbh

i like shelley and not least because of his no doubt phenomenally patient role in early cat power

Kim...Lee...Thurston..............the drummer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHRTxSY_EwQ

I-I'm gonna move down to Florida.
And I'm gonna bowl me a-a perfect game.
I'm gon' cut off my leg down in Florida.
And I'm gonna dance one-legged off in the rain.

Well they say that Sidney Poitier was a blind man.
And they say that LBJ was a Soviet Jew.
I said that when I go down to Florida ways,
They're ain't no kind of sexual healing that I would not, should not,
or could not do, except this right here:

Well I'm movin' down to Florida.
And you know that I'm gonna hafta potty train the chairman Mao.
And I'm gonna make the governor write my doodoo a letter, child.
And then I'm gonna grind me a White Castle slider out of India's sacred cow.

Well, I'm goin down to Florida, child.
And I'm gonna build me the atomic bomb.
I'm gonna hold time hostage down in Florida, child.
Ain't nobody - ain't nobody gonna tell me what to do. Stepchild.

By this time I guess you've figured out about Florida.
Turn the muddy water into Vaseline stains.
They be makin' tadpoles the size of Mercuries in Florida.
That be tellin' Julio Iglesias what to sing, now.
Well, whoever said that Sidney Poitier was a blind man,
Knew the same of Elvis Presley, too.
'cause all the sausages that dance like Ray Bolger on the hood of a car in a traffic jam
Know just exactly.. what to do. Right here:

Well I be goin' to Florida.
Pole cats sit back in the Seminole sand.
You know when I'm in Florida,
Just like Vince, I want it all.
Well I went down to Florida.
I got hurt.
So I took all the children down to Florida.
We start to get down in the dirt.
Well I'm never going back to Florida
That's why I'm movin today
When I settle down in Florida,
I'm gonna explode the whole damn Tampa Bay.
Get that boy to Florida,
And teach him what to do.

dang prolly gon get suggest bans for this

lee's big song-based solo album is already on the way in early '12, so we got that goin for us

Aw yeah, that's excellent news!

bummmmmer.
oh well, in 30 years, they probably spent more time together than most married couples do in 50 years. maybe it's just time for some space. will be weird if the band continues, but i'll still go see 'em what the hell.

The timing on this isn't particularly great (going on tonight in NYC): http://www.mcnallyjackson.com/event/henry-rollins-conversation-thurston-moore

Shit, I bet that hall filled up fast if people got the news in time.

i imagine if the conversation goes there at all rollins will just sit and make a confused face pondering the idea of being married for 30 years in the first place

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUGDZ9e08PI

man, internet reaction to this has been p embarrassing so far. OMG THEY SEPARATING LIKE A NORMAL COUPLE

kid is college-aged, isn't that a pretty ok time to separate?

This make me sad but I sincerely hope they have peace of mind about the break up.

So you all spent the downtime in mourning and lighting candles, then.

Yep, and sang plaintively to said candle: "Tonight's the day, *sob* candle."

An interesting reaction (from the comments section of his "Expert Witness" blog):

Robert Christgau (Xgau) Fri 9:42 PM

FWIW, I was surprised and saddened by Kim and Thurston's breakup, but not quite shocked. There was always more separation in their domestic arrangements than I was personally comfortable with, although in that I know my standards are at least as eccentric as theirs were. There were also always many hints of discord in their lyrics and pronouncements, and while I do my best never to take lyrics biographically, there's always gonna be leakage in that vow.
Ira and Georgia, on the other hand, would break my heart.

"Tonight's the day, *sob* candle."

LOL

in less soap opera- news, this is sounding cool!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U76XHPAWddw&sns=fb

that's alan licht playing second guitar right?

The SY side on the three lobed box is great. First thing they've done that's interested me since the SYR stuff I think.

would like to hear that three lobed thing. sold out, right? can you buy it digitally?
another lee tune
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MBHDJYw1sA&NR=1

so psyched for the Lee album

sounds pretty nice to me -- guitar interplay is great. always wondered why he'd never made a straightforward solo album ...

I would've thought they'd reconciled in the four-day interim.

I was kinda surprised/bummed to hear this, they seemed like such an institution

So does anyone have an idea of figure a guess as to why there aren't more Lee tunes on the albums?

Or least Lee songs that he definitely sings etc

Just for a long time it was the Thurston/Kim/Lee show really and for a lot of people his songs were the album highlights, I thought he would be more assertive at least from a singer/songwriter point of view, as much as we can make sense of their writing processes. Maybe as a group dynamic there's something in the way they work, or worked, that he understands and plays up to.

So does anyone have an idea of figure a guess as to why there aren't more Lee tunes on the albums?

I don't know the band's dynamic well. Is he an equal partner or a George to whom they cede one or two okay to pretty good tracks per record?

(I'm no Ranaldo fan but "Hoarfrost" and "Hey Joni" are two of my favorite SY tracks)

I've just decided that I'm gonna see this 'last' show.

I don't know who the fuck these two think they are. Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks still go through the Method acting motions of "inhabiting" "Go Your Own Way" on stage.

Lindsey and Stevie were together for less than a decade fwiw

when they were young and stupid and didn't have children

the Goodbye 20th Century book has a bit of detail about the role Lee and his songs play in the band, particularly the whole ordeal where he almost quit the band when one of the two songs he wrote for Dirty, "Genetic" was cut from the record (which i'm glad didn't happen, but his anger was definitely justified, that's a great song and Dirty has several subpar Thurston/Kim songs). apparently he tended to bring in semi-complete songs and Kim felt he wasn't as collaborative about them as they were with their other songs, and there was still some lingering idea of how SY started as 'Thurston's band playing his and Kim's songs'. bear in mind they were together for 5+ years before Lee did lead vocals on a song, and even then it was kind of a spoken word track and it was a couple more years until his singing/songwriting really blossomed.

in any event i got the impression that post-Jet Set his songs have been a little more valued in terms of album/set list placement and i've never gotten the sense he's writing a ton of songs and they're just not being used by SY (iirc "Genetic" and one Goo outtake are the only songs he's brought in that were not included on albums). i mean he's released tons of solo records that are mostly noise or spoken word or sound collage, so he's probably just not that prolific as a songwriter, which is kind of why him doing a whole solo album of songs now is so exciting.

ILX goes down and the whole world goes to crap. TBH, I don't know how couples make it as long as they did - 27 years, right? - and then decide to split, but one can surmise the reasons were totally banal.

Kim didn't approve of Thurston's "guitar tunings."

More likely she didn't like his choice of tech, if you get my drift.

despite the massive amount of music they've made, the idea that I may not have a new SY record to look forward to depresses me.

seriously. even the 3 years between the last couple kind of made me impatient! i'd gotten very comfortable with the idea that i had a favorite band that would be making good or great albums every 2 years for a long long time.

God, man, a near 30-year run wasn't good enough for you?

i was only a fan for a little over half of it! but yeah the point is it's easy to feel spoiled as an SY fan. there's been at least one or two worthwhile side project/solo albums a year for a while too, at least that will definitely continue if they split.

Kim didn't approve of Thurston's "guitar tunings."

LOL

one can surmise the reasons were totally banal.

nope

What does that mean? Kim has joined an alien worshipping cult and is about to move off-planet?

Kim's gone back to Danny Elfman, Oingo Boingo to reform with her on bass?

if we're using Fleetwood Mac as a template, Kim is about to embark on a torrid affair with Steve Shelley.

It'd be kind of cool if all future Sonic Youth records were obliquely about one-another.

Their kid is a high school senior now, I think?

oops, that was mentioned upthread--her going to college as a time they would split.

Not sure how much that had to do with it, given how much she was farmed out to their various Connecticut nannies.

Wow, for some reason those Lee songs were not what I was expecting. I expect they may be growers (and the lack of clarity in the guitars doesn't suggest just how much Licht and Lee might be playing off of each other), but still not exactly the direction I was imagining. Was anyone here at the show?

Will chime in that I am really sad at this news. I had heard some things while living in New York in regards to T., but still imagined, like some dude, that I would be able to comfortably look forward to checking out new records and, especially, seeing this band live, for some time. Glad I tried to catch them whenever they were in the area for the last decade, every live show was at least good, but most were very good to great.

FWIW, every member of this band was nice and very low key on some level when I had the chance to be around them.

I don't know, I always think of Lee as the steady 'sensible' but cerebral element of SY and it's a bit weird he hasn't competed more with T with regards to songs.

I mean for one a shitload of people prefer Lee's vox over Kim and Thurston's leads

eh, i really think that if Lee wrote ten songs a year and WANTED to be a full-time frontman he would've done it. his songs feel more deliberate and considered than the way Thurston just kinds of cranks out riffs and silly lyrics, which means Lee ends up more consistent but a lot less productive overall.

calling dibs on having the first review of Lee's album that compares it to All Things Must Pass.

Oh please don't.

lee is only really a good singer when viewed with low expectations set by the other two sonic youth singers

or indie rock vocalists in general

lee's songwriting contribs to everything after murray st have not been his best work imho - thurston has, maybe, got closer to lee's more 'classical' songform w things like 'unmade bed'

yeah Lee has not been as consistently making standout tracks on the last few albums, but "What We Know" off the last one was a beast imo

total live killer as well

idk if anyone got around to OTMing this, but otm, i found it v moving

http://nymag.com/news/intelligencer/kim-gordon-thurston-moore-2011-10/

do read if you haven't (v short), but, particularly:

That a heterosexual married couple could not only work together but collaborate as equals and throw equally large shadows. What better fairy tale to reassure young people that they don’t ever have to settle? It’s like getting a notarized letter containing three important promises: that your bohemian dreams won’t conflict with middle-class contentment; that maybe the reason your parents’ generation all divorced was that they never found partners cool enough to be in a band with; and that you, as an adult, could do better.

one can surmise the reasons were totally banal.

nope

― Hadrian VIII, Thursday, October 20, 2011 1:25 PM (4 days ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

lol, from the "on every artist-specific message board ever" thread

88. Guy who claims to know band and claims to know something amazing is going to happen soon but that he isn't allowed to give any further details about it.

88. Guy who claims to know band and claims to know something amazing is going to happen soon

Thurston left Kim for Lee?

thurston and kim were one of those russian spy couples who had kids and everything & are gonna be handed back to the kremlin in a trade off, sorry i can't say anymore

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lhd131x5iq1qchvwto1_500.jpg

thurston and kim were one of those russian spy couples who had kids and everything & are gonna be handed back to the kremlin in a trade off, sorry i can't say anymore

o-boy o-boy! and who are russia gonna extradite in return? both of taTu, and the whole of Akvarium?

It’s been a rough few months for Sonic Youth. Apart from longtime indie power couple Kim Gordon and Thurston Moore’s marriage breaking up the band is also on indefinite hiatus.
However, one more hit to their self-esteem came yesterday. The band posted on their Facebook page what a 13 year-old wrote to them, venting about the quality of their music.

Our fan’s writing:
“I’m going to be 100% honest with you.
I’m 13. I have a little band. We are so much better than you. Honestly. You are the worst band I have ever seen in your entire life. You are worse than Rebecca Black. The bass player just hacks the bass and plays one chord. The guitar players are playing out of tune guitars and… well not even playing actually chords. I couldn’t sound worse if I tried. It actually sounds like a joke to me. The drummer is okay. But honestly the vocalist is completely out of tune. Oh and The Black keys have two people and are better than you.
From: Me, and pretty much everyone else who has accidentally stumbled upon your terrible music. ”

(Over/under on number of posts before "13 year old kid otm" is 2. Take the under.)

You are the worst band I have ever seen in your entire life

mind = blown

It bugs me that The Black Keys have become the benchmark band for young people.

saw Thurston early this morning having a coffee with a new lady friend(?)

"the band is also on indefinite hiatus"

this is the real news here for me

You are worse than Rebecca Black

friday comes alone again, a perfect day for a quiet friend

You are the worst band I have ever seen in your entire life
haaa that has a nice ring to it.
Black Keys really must be the "i'm a 13-year-old-taking-guitar-lessons" band of the moment right now.

Their influence is palpable in the midwestern college town in which I live.

You have never experienced a film like this in my entire life

Is Ibold gonna start manning the bar at Great Jones Cafe again?

The vocalist is out of tune? Just the one?

That actually got me to check out the Black Keys.

I mean, they did start out 30 years ago. I'm thinking about how I would have felt about 1951's biggest music stars when I was 13...

I don't fault a kid for not liking Sonic Youth in 2012 at all but I also think that's a false equivalency, considering the developments in popular music between 1951-1981 vs rock music from 1981-2012 (and considering that he likes the Black Keys). Like, I'm not sure 'datedness' is his problem.

Oddly, and for no reason now that I think about it, I'd assumed the 13 year old was a girl. Weird.

Ha, I guess it was unfair for me to assume that the kid was a boy!

And I don't know, this doesn't look so bad:

http://www.digitaldreamdoor.com/pages/bg_hits/bg_hits_51.html

But it would have bored the crap out of me in 1981...

i can't imagine that there are many 13-year-olds to whom any phase of SY's career would make much sense

Maybe the ones who are against fascism.

I just think that a 13-year-old kid in 1983 could have had the same reaction to Sonic Youth. (I was hearing it in 1995.) In fact, that seems even more likely to me.

(OK, I guess I was thinking more of what a 'best-selling hits' list from 1951 would look like, which I can guarantee that list is not. But, yeah, Sonic Youth wasn't exactly topping the charts in the early 80s either.)

I mean, isn't Ke$ha a Sonic Youth fan?

i assumed 13-year-old girl too, whereas i'll generally sexistly tend away from that. odd.

ke$ha's favourite bands list was basically an ilxor's dream iirc (roky erickson and silver apples are what i remember from it), so that maybe doesn't count.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_number-one_singles_of_1951_%28U.S.%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1951_in_music#Top_hits_on_record

(I loved Howlin' Wolf when I was 14 btw!)

xpost

I usually assume that girls are too sensible to write letters to well-known artists just to tell them they suck.

Not sure why I'd assume that though. I didn't realize that I have my own issues with gender roles and it was certainly unfair of me to take them out on a 13-year-old troll.

I wrote a lot of regrettable hate mail to celebrities as a kid, worst of all to the undeserving and great Pee-Wee Herman.

I also wrote a letter to Martin Short telling him about my big crush on him. In sum, sucks for a kid to say some dumb shit off the cuff and then it's immortalized on the internet.

I know when I was 13...never start off with Bad Moon Rising as your first SY album, some things just aren't meant to be

Although this kid's rant would have been funnier if she/he had laid into one of O'Rourke/Ibold/Kim G as third guitarist

HEY KID, LOOK AT DIS
Alternative rock icons Sonic Youth, followed By The Black Keys, on viewer and hella sponsors)-supported Austin City Limits
full episode, so watch out http://video.pbs.org/video/1757512915/

Or if the letter had went more like "I’m 13. I have a little band. We are so much better than you. Honestly. You are the worst band I have ever seen in your entire life. You are worse than Rebecca Black. The bass player just hacks the bass and plays one chord. Seriously, ever tried Googling "linear counterpoint"? "Polytonality"? The guitar players are playing the same freaking tunings you've played since 1988: F#F#GGAA, big freaking deal. The guitarist in my band read about just intonation on Wikipedia and tried it out last night. I know you guys are old. I just didn't think you'd be stuck in the 19th century. The drummer is okay if you think 4/4 is REALLY EXCITING. But honestly the vocalist needs to listen to Sainkho Namtchylak. Oh and Fred Frith is one guy and is better than you.

(xpost to Although this kid's rant would have been funnier if she/he had laid into one of O'Rourke/Ibold/Kim G as third guitarist
)

"had gone"

bad moon rising was my first sonic youth record, i bought it on tape. i think i was fourteen and it made no sense, but it slowly revealed its self to me and changed everything about music for me, its still the one i like the most.

Is Ibold gonna start manning the bar at Great Jones Cafe again?

again? p sure he served me less than a year ago.

(my last visit to date)

So nobody can stand to xppost watch alternative rock icons Sonic Youth, followed by The Black Keys, on Austin City Limits?

(That's hilarious, Abbott.)

But honestly the vocalist needs to listen to Sainkho Namtchylak.

Nice. I was just listening to Lost Rivers the other day and thought pretty much the same thing.

I just watched the SY performance, dow. It was surprisingly good. Maybe I was wrong to write off The Eternal (top 20 Billboard placing!).

that this kid is 13 is really a distraction. he's essentially one of hundreds of thousands whose response to SY music is "hey you don't play your music properly, you're awful", which is a common response to their music by dullards of all stripes, at least this kid gets a pass because he's so young. a friend of mine, who's a music journalist, had a massive 'discussion' on his facebook page the other weekend about SY and the consensus opinion was that SY is po-faced and unlistenable, which i cannot even grok.

bad moon rising was my first SY too, when i was 16 I think? and it put me off SY for months, until i borrowed Dirty out of the library and it all began to make sense.

i think the eternal makes better sense live? i respected it rather than loved it when it came out, but they played a bunch off it in london last new years eve and it really blew my mind.

Bad Moon Rising is my favorite SY album and will probably be my favorite even after I die.

yeah, its pretty much mine now, too. but when yr a 16 year old who wants to hear the band who 'inspired nirvana', its a hard chew to swallow.

Ha I think I was listening to SY when I was 13, though I was def listening to the first three Geffen albums

if i had heard SY when i was 13, i would have definitely hated them.
in fact i probably did when i was 23, 33, and 43 as well.
i only liked them when i was 19.

also, whatever their motives, i think its a bit much that a bunch of grey hairs have posted this kid rant.

Is Ibold gonna start manning the bar at Great Jones Cafe again?
again? p sure he served me less than a year ago.
― World Congress of Itch (Dr Morbius)

I just assumed he didn't do that anymore...pretty cool he served you. I might go check it out

Sonic Youth '87, full show
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1QZAETFJ3a8

"Kool Thing" was the... err.. koolest thing ever when I heard it at 13

Wow, that show from '87 is great so far (halfway through). I really love "Hold That Tiger", pretty similar tracklist, but you can watch em play! Didn't see my first SY show until 97 I think, so very glad for any decent footage from those times. Thanks dow!

yeah i love that era of the band, so powerful.

Thank Tyler, he's the one who linked it from his blog. Also, I need to check this, and several other full-lengths listed on the same page
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OVL0kSBf1es&feature=related

Man, seems like there is quite a wormhole to disappear into. Thanks Tyler! Lee is really killing it, making my Friday.

yeah it's interesting -- i haven't watched too much footage of the band over the years, so it's cool to see who's playing what, guitar-wise. Some stuff I always assumed was Lee is actually Thurston or vice versa.

The Austin City Limits set (their part of the show is about 24") is pretty cool, although when they were on Soundstage a few years ago, a set of about the same length got really awkward, like they were bumping into each other--too many cooks...? Maybe that had something to do with the hiatus, although hadn't O'Rourke already left? Sorry I don't keep up.

Yeah, it can be surprising as to who is playing what on the songs sometimes, though I usually have it sussed out. Was more suprising to me sometimes on later stuff, like "Rain On Tin". I had assumed, after hearing the record, that Lee played the cool ascending/descending lines at the end with O'Rourke, but was very surprised to see that it was Thurston for some reason.

what the hell does "S&D" stand for (thread title)

Uhh, "Search and Destroy" I believe, as in what is great and what sucks.

Thank you, sir.

And what about "www"

I'm kidding

Hah! Sure thing. Took me a while to figure out a lot of the ILM architecture/coding. Still am not sure exactly what the meaning or origin of "challops" is.

it is an argumentative seafood

delicious, but rough on the digestive system

Thanks for clearing that up

dumb slang for "challenging opinions"

as in posters patting themselves on the back for ~~so against the grain maan~~

for being

just finished the SY biography Goodbye 20th Century. stuff about their early career was really fascinating but it sorta devolved by the end into "and then they made this album. and after that tour, started this next album."

also bittersweet since the back of the jacket is all about how they're one of rock's long-lived success stories and such an enduring couple :/

Ah (I had kinda figured out the context of it, but never would have figured out "challenging opinions", though it looks so obvious now).

Didn't mean for "Thanks for clearing that up" to sound so grumpy, I thought the answers were funny btw. Was also kinda decided on never asking what challops actually meant, but in the spirit of the S&D question went ahead and threw it out there.

Nothing about how boring a drummer SS became...stopped playing all those toms circa 1992

Nothing about how boring a 'songwriter' TM became and how samey all those albums became

it looks like the fake album reviews my joke band puts in our liner notes.

regarding the teen fanmail...

i think the eternal makes better sense live? i respected it rather than loved it when it came out, but they played a bunch off it in london last new years eve and it really blew my mind.

― I accidentally sonned your dome (stevie), Saturday, April 7, 2012 4:42 AM (1 week ago) Bookmark

yeah The Eternal songs generally all sounded really great live. if it turns out to be the last proper SY album it's a good one to go out on, kinda underrated.

was just thinking about the time some friends and i brought hash joints into SY's june 2009 show at the 9:30 club and lit up like three rows from the stage. everyone around us inched away and one my friends got kicked out. thurston smirked

rip sonic youth

ha i was at that show too, think i was way off to the (audience's) left? don't remember if i saw smoke in the crowd.

one fun thing at that show was toward the end of "Massage The History," people just started clapping to the rhythm of the song even though it was supposed to be dying down at that point, usually that kind of thing annoys me but it was kind of cool and spontaneous.

gave The Eternal a good listen on a road trip a few weeks ago, it's weird to think that it may be the last one.

it's really good imo, i kind of hope that if anything good comes of this being the possible end is that The Eternal may eventually gain a better rep because of that.

it's pretty solid -- though yeah it is weird to think of it as the "final" SY album. i have this feeling they'll pop up on the festival circuit in 2-3 years, you know, headlining p-fork to great fanfare. maybe i'm wrong!

yeah, who knows. most band hiatuses and triumphant reunions have less delicate social dynamics than the end of a marriage.

yeah, true. did they actually get divorced? wasn't sure if it was just a separation. AND THEY'LL GET BACK TOGETHER OMG.

the chelsea moving light album is excellent

took the time machine out for a spin today, listening to Evol, Sister & Daydream Nation all day today

they feel kinda perfect in this period. I love Goo and Dirty too, but fuck. yeah.

Dirty Goo

I don't know if you've heard the Live In Chicago album recorded in 1985 (but released last year) - it's dead exciting and gives me the same feeling I had when I first heard them... fuck's sake... 27 years ago. They're also planning on making this the first of a series of 'classic' Sonic Youth concert live albums to cover what they consider to be all the main points of their career.