Come Listen to The Entire Wayne Shorter Discography with Man Alive

I've loved Wayne Shorter since high school, and I felt pretty affected by his loss in spite of his advanced age. One of the great post-American Songbook jazz composers, a beautiful soul, adventurous and thoughtful improviser, and never rested on past achievements, exploring the music in new ways pretty much up to the end.

I realized there were some significant gaps in my knowledge of his work in spite of having spent a fair amount of time with his music, and I thought it would be a nice memoriam to go through his discog chronologically in order of release. I'm too scattered to be able to do this on a schedule, so I may wind up doing two albums one day and then not another for three days. For that reason, feel free to cross-talk in the thread about albums that were already discussed.

I also thought about whether to cover Weather Report and/or any of his sideman work, but that just seemed like too much to bite off and better for other threads, though I kind of want to talk about his solos on Aja at some point.

According to Wikipedia, this is the discog in order of recording - first year listed is year of recording, second is year of release. Join me.

Introducing Wayne Shorter (also released as Blues a la Carte) 1959 Vee-Jay 1959
Second Genesis 1960 Vee-Jay 1974
Wayning Moments 1962 Vee-Jay 1962
Night Dreamer 1964 Blue Note 1964
JuJu 1964 Blue Note 1965
Speak No Evil 1964 Blue Note 1966
The Soothsayer 1965 Blue Note (LT series) 1979
Et Cetera 1965 Blue Note (LT series) 1980
The All Seeing Eye 1965 Blue Note 1966
Adam's Apple 1966 Blue Note 1967
Schizophrenia 1967 Blue Note 1969
Super Nova 1969 Blue Note 1969
Moto Grosso Feio 1970 Blue Note 1974
Odyssey of Iska 1970 Blue Note 1971
Native Dancer (featuring Milton Nascimento) 1974 Columbia 1975
Atlantis 1985 Columbia 1985
Phantom Navigator 1986 Columbia 1987
Joy Ryder 1988 Columbia 1988
Live at the Montreux Jazz Festival 1988 (with Carlos Santana) 1988 Image Entertainment 2005 live
A Tribute to Miles (with Herbie Hancock, Tony Williams, Ron Carter, Wallace Roney) 1992-94 Qwest/Reprise/Warner Bros. 1994 partially live
High Life 1994-95 Verve 1995
1+1 (with Herbie Hancock) 1997 Verve 1997
Footprints Live! 2001 Verve 2002 live
Alegría 2003? Verve 2003
Beyond the Sound Barrier (as Wayne Shorter Quartet) 2002–04 Verve 2005 live
Without a Net (as Wayne Shorter Quartet) 2010 Blue Note 2013 live
Emanon 2016 Blue Note 2018 disk 2 & 3: live
Live at the Detroit Jazz Festival 2017 Candid 2022 live

I’m looking forward to this, other than speak no evil & Juju & some weather report, I’m coming into his work kinda blind. Happy to hear some commentary from heads.

Let’s do it

Cool. Starting with

1. Introducing Wayne Shorter (also released as Blues a la Carte) 1959 Vee-Jay 1959

This was actually one that I got into relatively late in life. I'm assuming most folks on this board, like myself, are of the age that they got into music via LPs, CDs, and tapes, and in my jazz discovery years it was CDs (and there was no Amazon yet) so I was limited to whatever happened to be in reissue at the time, and I don't even remember coming across this one.

Best band you could possibly ask for in 1959 - basically the Kind of Blue rhythm section (Kelly/Chambers/Cobb) plus Lee Morgan on trumpet, and it swings hard. Five out of six tunes here are originals, which is cool.

As an aside, Shorter is a guy I think of as a composer as much as a player, and as I was flipping through his releases it's pretty remarkable how the vast majority of his tracks as a leader are his own tunes. I can't even say that there's a non-Shorter-composed standard that I really strongly associate with him, as opposed to even composition-heavy guys like Bill Evans or Monk or Coltrane who all have standards that they reimagined as their own. I can't really think of one of those for Wayne Shorter, I really just think of his own tunes. Also, just a note that, at least as I learned it via passed down jazz guy lore, the hard bop movement was in large part about black musicians breaking out of just doing standards and increasingly writing their own "standards," and Wayne can definitely claim credit for at least a handful of pretty commonly played jazz tunes.

Ok, so I'm not going to necessarily go in depth track by track on every single album, but I love the opener, Blues a la Carte, just everything you want in a hard bop tune. Swings like crazy, surprising harmonic twists. Wayne comes out of the gate sounding pretty Trane-ish, which is something he was criticized for early, but whatever, he was 26, and I already hear some very non-Trane Shorterisms making their way into his playing. His attack is harder than it would become later, but still a hair softer than Trane maybe.

My music theory chops are rusty, but the chord progression and melody both do some pretty interesting things here that are already promising about him as a composer.

Down in the Depths and Pug Nose also total ear worms. I'm pretty sure they have have been repeat used on WNYC and/or NPR fwiw. Maybe Brian Lehrer?

Those are really the three standout tracks for me, Harry's Last Stand and Black Diamond are a bit forgettable/skippable but fine. The Mack the Knife is solid, and if you're going to hear any band play it it might as well be this one, but I still just feel like I've heard that tune too many times.

Jimmy Cobb is crushing on MTK though

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fTPPjrB6TE

Youtube link in case anyone needs it

Or rather here's the whole record: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l1ihkesL9UnVA5-cWsKFKGTla8xrjixbc

This album is grebt, thanks for the tip! Wasn’t even aware of its existence until this thread.

Following! Introducing Wayne Shorter is a gem that I had never heard before either, I probably would have overlooked it in the cd era based on the title alone. It swings so hard, and it's some of the best non-KoB Jimmy Cobb I've heard. I've heard some live Cannonball stuff where he's playing pretty heavily, and some 90s/00s records that just aren't the same, but he sounds incredible here.

just starting, this is wonderful

Perfect timing. Since the pandemic and working from home I have time to listen to and focus on music during the day, and I've generally been starting each morning with a jazz record. I've never even seen this album cover before. Looking forward to this.

Yeah, it was really a nice surprise when I discovered it maybe a few years ago - it's honestly better than a lot of hard bop records out there. Maybe the veejay label + corny cover + this not really quite being in the style(s) he became best known for has something to do with why it doesn't get as much attention, but OTOH as noted above someone at WNYC seems to love it.

I started a listen to Second Genesis on the way to work today, so maybe I'll get around to that one late tonight or tomorrow, don't want to rush anyone though.

The color scheme and font of the cover reminded me of this:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b3/Gilligans_Island_title_card.jpg[

Following! Introducing Wayne Shorter is a gem that I had never heard before either, I probably would have overlooked it in the cd era based on the title alone. It swings so hard, and it's some of the best non-KoB Jimmy Cobb I've heard. I've heard some live Cannonball stuff where he's playing pretty heavily, and some 90s/00s records that just aren't the same, but he sounds incredible here.

― change display name (Jordan), Monday, March 6, 2023 9:54 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

Yeah, I would say in general the band sounds energized, like they were into his playing and into his tunes. They are def not phoning it in. Paul Chambers doing some really cool counterpoint in his walks too.

I'm starting on Second Genesis as we speak. Not to jump the gun, but right off it's nice to hear Bob Cranshaw on upright bass (I believe he had a back injury later on that made him switch to electric for all those Sonny Rollins records). Art Blakey is immediately identifiable as himself, and I love Cedar Walton.

I didn't know the opening track 'Ruby and the Pearl' as a standard (listening to the Nat King Cole version now), but it's a great tune. Reminds me of 'Nature Boy' and works really well as the Caravan-ish arrangement here.

'Tenderfoot' rips.

love that very 1974 cover on an album recorded in 1960

good thread, looking forward to following along

The whole electric bass in jazz thing is kind of a bête noire with me, since I play electric and don’t think I have world enough and time, let alone space, to get an upright and learn to play it properly. Electric can often sound out of place in a jazz setting, both due to the nature of the attack and also some of the extra sounds that come out of the instrument which seem to fit better in the context of rock and a guitar or two. I’d like to think I can usually get an okay sound myself that is not too bright but then I sometimes have gotten static from others that seem to amount to “why aren’t you playing a real (upright) bass?” I don’t often like it even when name players play electric in a straight ahead jazz context. People often say “yeah but Bob Cranshaw,” but even or especially in his case I prefer his upright sound.

Just in my own experience, I usually hate both playing with and listening to an electric bass doing walking basslines. It just feels wrong somehow, it lacks that full-body, physical 'digging in' that an upright requires, maybe? One exception might be some '70s Buddy Rich records, somehow I kinda like the clarity and the kitsch of the electric + the insane momentum of the drumming and horns.

(no offense JR!)

I've always felt the same fwiw. 70s/80s amplified upright also sounded really bad fwiw. In my mind it's the "Pablo Records Sound" just because I remember checking out record after record on that label and being disappointed with the chintzy sounding bass and just generally terrible sound.

I don't even love it when this bassist I play with brings the 'stick', ie the electric upright. It just sounds like a fretless electric most of the time, although you do get some of the growl and slap of the strings against the neck sometimes (which is one of the things that really sets upright apart, maybe?). He recorded it on a non-jazz track recently and came out pretty cool though, very much its own sound in between fretless and upright.

in the spirit of this thread I just purchased a copy of Supernova, bookmarked

Just listened to Introducing for the first time. I agree with everyone's takes - solid hard bop album, nothing earth-shattering, but the band sounds engaged. I love a good walking bass line, so this scratches that itch. I particularly like how Chambers manages to keep the walking/swing feel even when playing arco, which is neat. There are some great solos by Shorter and Morgan. Cobb's drumming is lively and precise. Nothing really stood out piano-wise, but that might be my own failing as a first-time listener of the album. Shorter definitely knew how to write a well-harmonized, memorable melody from early on - nice reminder! I enjoyed this album. Looking forward to the rest.

Surprised some of you jazz fans had never heard of this album before. Usually when I like an artist I immediately check the discographies and want to hear evrything they ever did. I haven't listened to Introducing for a long time, don't remember it making a stroing impression like the Blue Notes did. Will need to re-listen this afternoon.

Yeah, I mean as I said above, in my formative jazz years there just wasn't an option to listen to *everything.* I don't even remember ever seeing this record until I had spotify/youtube.

And although not earth-shattering, as stated above, I think I like it better than a lot of the Freddie Hubbard and Hank Mobley and other hard bop stuff I was listening to back when I listened to more hard bop..

Same on both counts, and I feel like this one has a real vibe and energy that's not always present on studio dates, even with great bands of the era. Like, you're never going to get a bad record putting any group of musicians of this caliber together, but the factors don't always align to get magic in the air.

I mean, I started in the CD era too--special ordering and haunting used CD bins and ebay was my go to method of trying to track down everything. Usually I found how the records existed from discographies online or otherwise, reference books, etc.

Listening to Introducing now, I forgot how much I love Paul Chambers, especially his bowing.

Second Genesis is less immediately appealing than Introducing. Art Blakey roolz though.

The whole electric bass in jazz thing is kind of a bête noire with me, since I play electric and don’t think I have world enough and time, let alone space, to get an upright and learn to play it properly. Electric can often sound out of place in a jazz setting, both due to the nature of the attack and also some of the extra sounds that come out of the instrument which seem to fit better in the context of rock and a guitar or two.

This. There's a late '90s Sam Rivers orchestra record called Inspiration, which is mostly very good, but when the bass guitarist solos there's all these...artifacts, like the sounds of the strings on the frets, and little instances of fret buzz, and the kind of harshness of attack and articulation that happens when there's too much treble on the instrument, and it just does not work at all.

I’d like to think I can usually get an okay sound myself that is not too bright but then I sometimes have gotten static from others that seem to amount to “why aren’t you playing a real (upright) bass?” I don’t often like it even when name players play electric in a straight ahead jazz context. People often say “yeah but Bob Cranshaw,” but even or especially in his case I prefer his upright sound.

― Wile E. Galore (James Redd and the Blecchs), Monday, March 6, 2023 12:15 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

I literally can't think of a single bassist who started on upright and successfully made the transition to Fender, other than James Jamerson. As brilliant as Ron Carter is, he sounds lost on Fender bass. I think the problem has been that, over the years, the Fender bass wasn't seen as an instrument that required its own approach, so upright players thought, "Hey, I can do this, no problem!" and, well, it's a problem.

I've always felt the same fwiw. 70s/80s amplified upright also sounded really bad fwiw. In my mind it's the "Pablo Records Sound" just because I remember checking out record after record on that label and being disappointed with the chintzy sounding bass and just generally terrible sound.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Monday, March 6, 2023 12:32 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

Amplification for upright acoustic bass has fortunately come an insanely long way since the '70s, but prior to the mid-'90s there were very, very few decent-sounding amplification systems. One of the worst instances of it I've heard is Sirone's sound when he was in the Cecil Taylor Unit: it sounds like he playing through a landline phone. Jymie Merritt was one of the first to really investigate the possibilities of an upright electric, and his sound -- using a solid-body Ampeg -- on Lee Morgan's monumental Live At The Lighthouse is the best amplified "upright" sound I've heard. It's a shame more bassists didn't look into that as an option. It sounds more like an acoustic bass than an amplified acoustic bass.

congrats on liking this album a long time ago boring, maryland

Ha, yes, exactly. While the rest of us had our heads in the sand and other places.

The early boring catches the worm.

I literally can't think of a single bassist who started on upright and successfully made the transition to Fender, other than James Jamerson. As brilliant as Ron Carter is, he sounds lost on Fender bass. I think the problem has been that, over the years, the Fender bass wasn't seen as an instrument that required its own approach, so upright players thought, "Hey, I can do this, no problem!" and, well, it's a problem.

Stanley Clarke to thread.

To answer the charge directly, earlier on in my life and my musical fandom I was a little more of a discography completist although never fully. At some point it ended up seemingly like homework and maybe not the best approach to me. Same with series of novels. I may never know what happened to Inspector Montalbano after he jumped the shark in the Mediterranean.
(xp)

Sorry that came off like I was dick waving I was just surprised that some of the knowledgeable jazz fans didn’t know about these albums. I know online tone is hard to convey. Sorry to go all jazzier than thou.

As brilliant as Ron Carter is, he sounds lost on Fender bass. I think the problem has been that, over the years, the Fender bass wasn't seen as an instrument that required its own approach, so upright players thought, "Hey, I can do this, no problem!" and, well, it's a problem.

I know a couple chops-heavy bass players who sound incredible on upright, but put them on electric and it's a busy mess of notes. It's like the leash was taken off and they're excited puppies running around causing chaos.

Having a hard time thinking of famous bassists who are equally well-regarded on upright and electric, but I'm sure they exist (although I feel like John Patitucci might be one of the above types, when he's reined in on upright his chops have a much better context). There's only one I know irl that truly excels at both and treats them as their own thing.

In New Orleans there are a surprising amount of musicians who double on sousaphone and electric bass, now that's a whole different thing.

This has historically been true, I think it’s less so now.

Definitely. There's no longer the stigma of electric bass guitar being seen as a "rock" instrument (and, subsequently, a step towards selling out).

I know a couple chops-heavy bass players who sound incredible on upright, but put them on electric and it's a busy mess of notes. It's like the leash was taken off and they're excited puppies running around causing chaos.

Haha this is otm. I've experienced that as well. All of a sudden, phrasing goes out the window because it's an "easier" instrument to play.

Was wondering when we were going to get around to Patitucci, bringing it back full circle to Wayne.

Feel like most, but not all, who also play Latin and Latin Jazz usually have a better sound on electric because of the discipline of the tumbao. Actually one of those guys, who also plays a very famous lion’s head bass, told me that when he toured with Ray Barretto in Europe he brought his electric because “Ray is not going to pay to ship an upright and you will show up and end up with whatever weird bass the promoter provides.” He also told me he learned a lot playing disco in wedding bands.

I like how this thread has derailed into an upright/electric debate, because I play in a rockabilly/swing band and if there's any genre where upright is "required" more than jazz, that's it. But like Mr. Redd I've never learned. Maybe when I no longer have a day job.

Anyway, Shorter: I lack a lot of the jazz knowledge and vocabulary to describe what I'm hearing, but agree the debut is really good, energetic, swinging hard bop, different from the more cerebral later stuff I associate with him.

I may have liked Second Genesis even more. Without a second horn it's a little less easier for me to focus on his playing. And the two standards at the end satisfied the moldy fig in me.

'Tenderfoot' rips.

Hell yes.

Art Blakey roolz

HELL yes.

That shouldn't sat "less easier" wtf

say. I give up.

In New Orleans there are a surprising amount of musicians who double on sousaphone and electric bass, now that's a whole different thing.

― change display name (Jordan), Tuesday, March 7, 2023 10:04 AM (forty-six minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

jordan do you know Soul Rebels? Went to New Orleans for vacation a while back and ended up drinking withe trombone player at this bar by our Airbnb, he invited us to his show at this club the next night, they were so much fun (the sousaphone functioning as the bass was what reminded me), they do a lot of hip hop influenced stuff, nice dude

xxxxpost it's cool boring :) i was being snarky tbh

My feeling about derail is that all roads ultimately lead back to Wayne anyway so I am fine with it, both as the original derailer and as an ongoing participant in this thread.

Hehe, I never saw Richard Davis play electric, although I do remember buying some obscure '70s organ jazz-funk cd because it had him on it.

xp #1

i skipped ahead a little and wee-ow wayning moments is dope

jordan do you know Soul Rebels? Went to New Orleans for vacation a while back and ended up drinking withe trombone player at this bar by our Airbnb, he invited us to his show at this club the next night, they were so much fun (the sousaphone functioning as the bass was what reminded me), they do a lot of hip hop influenced stuff, nice dude

Yes, very well. They're one of those bands where at this point there are only two original members (the drummers) and for me they're just not what they once were. But there was a time in which they made their own lane and were a force to be reckoned with, super influential for sure. Unfortunately what I consider to be their classics ('No More Parades' and 'More James from No More Parades') aren't on streaming, but 'Urban Legend' (live in the studio with Bill Summers on percussion) best gets at what the classic lineup was capable of. The 'No Place Like Home' live album is great too.

If you want I can send you a bootleg of a brass band battle (recorded on minidsic) from the early '00s that I've listened to one million times, where they just blew down every other band.

cool yeah the drummers definitely looked older than the rest of the band. i listened to some newer albums on spotify and they didn't do much for me. the live show was incredible though. real party vibe. wish i would have bootlegged it.

would love to hear that battle.

I used to slip Soul Rebels' "Let Your Mind Be Free" into DJ sets occasionally and once had a cute gal run up to the DJ booth; turned out she was from New Orleans and was ecstatic I knew/had played the song.

Ah, the thread descends into anarchy as the people await further news!

I'll (probably) get the second record started this afternoon/evening - been through it a couple times.

Nice Dan. I just noticed that No More Parades is now on streaming, and the sequel is on Bandcamp: https://tuffcity.com/album/more-jams-from-no-more-parades-2

Those records don't capture the crazy volume that they were capable of and are a little jazzier, but are still great records.

Lol so many derails as we wait for man alive, I didn't expect this one on the Wayne Shorter thread.

Btw, I emailed you ums

Just listened to Second Genesis for the first time. Another good hard bop album, but maybe not quite as successful as Introducing. Shorter's solos don't seem as inspired on this one. I get the sense that Morgan really egged on Shorter on Introducing, and I miss that sense of friendly competition here. When the other instrumentalists do take solos on Second Genesis, Shorter seems to re-emerge into the song with more energy, but overall he just doesn't seem as excited to be playing. "Tenderfoot" is definitely a highlight - Walton's piano solo is killer, and Blakey's drum breaks are amazing. I also love Blakey's rim shots and triplets on the ride cymbal throughout the album, which gives the music some swing along with the walking bass lines. For me, the highlights of the album are the ballads - "The Albatross" has a breathtaking melody, and Shorter's playing is aching and lovely from start to finish. His interpretation of "I Didn't Know What Time It Was" also features some gorgeous low-key playing.

And not to belabor the thread derailment re: bass, I've coincidentally been thinking about buying an electric upright bass (after decades of playing a regular old Fender fretted electric). One of the reasons I've held back is that I've had trouble finding good examples of people playing upright electric on record, so it's hard to tell exactly what I'd be getting into tone-wise. I hadn't previously heard the Lee Morgan album that Tarfumes pointed out above - the tone that Merritt gets out of the upright electric is the closest to an acoustic double bass I've ever heard from an electric (upright or otherwise). It's kinda mind-blowing actually. What are some other examples of bassists playing upright electric on record (studio or live)?

I have a theory that in straight-ahead/acoustic jazz you really need the depth of upright bass because the kick drum doesn't play the same kind of anchoring/bottom-end role, whereas in funk or rock the kick drum carries a lot of the bottom end and pulse.

I feel like that's why straight ahead jazz with electric bass always feels thin and chintzy.

xxp here's one:
https://www.discogs.com/release/403684-Ramsey-Lewis-Sun-Goddess

and also
https://www.discogs.com/release/879849-Tom-Waits-Bone-Machine

'Feathering the bass drum' has been a topic on drummer youtube lately. Almost all of the jazz drummers through the '60s would play the bass drum very lightly on all four beats in between accents, but you can't hear it on records. Live, it's very much a 'felt not heard' thing, you can tell when it's not present and it was mostly done to support the bass when amplification wasn't very good (or was non-existent).

Most modern drummers never learned to do it, and it's not as necessary now that you can get a lot of bottom end from bass amps. I do it on slower tempos but admittedly suck at higher tempos, it's hard!

I was taught to do it when I played drums in summer program big bands.

Makes sense, I think it's much more important for driving a big band, and you don't have to be so light that it's nearly imperceptible either. I need to build up those ankle/lower leg muscles again, lol.

Tootie Heath interview in which he discussed feathering at some length

Ben Riley mentions feathering

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNDr0e5z0Hk

^Greg Hutchinson

Trying not to get too far ahead of our host, but isn't it kind of weird how the title track of Wayning Moments is such an obvious variation on 'All Blues'? I wonder how it came off at the time, before Shorter ever played with Miles -- as an homage? Or maybe it's just me.

Alright, sorry guys:

2. Second Genesis 1960 Vee-Jay 1974
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6a/Second_Genesis_VeeJay.jpg
Personnel:
Wayne Shorter – tenor saxophone
Cedar Walton – piano
Bob Cranshaw – double-bass
Art Blakey – drums

I've been through this one several times. The first thing that strikes me is just how completely different Wayne sounds here vs Introducing. His sound is much softer, and I feel like the sound he crystalized later is somewhere in between these first two records. Here he sounds a bit more like Booker Ervin or Stan Getz.

I don't dislike anything about this record, but nothing on it really stayed with me the way a few of the tracks on Introducing do. After several listens, The Albatross is probably the one that sticks out in my mind the most, but it feels derivative of Mal Waldron's "Soul Eyes," first recorded three years earlier with Coltrane on the session, (though more famously in 1962 by Coltrane on Impulse).

The rhythm section sounds really good - I kind of like Art Blakey better as an accompanist than as a soloist (he has a bit of a "bag of tricks" that I find gets tiresome after a while) but his ride playing and comping sound excellent here. Bob Cranshaw in the cut too.

I guess this was Wayne sort of still feeling around for his sound and approach.

Pay as You Go is a decent tune with a terrible name. Tenderfoot also pretty good. IDK, nothing really to get excited about here but a perfectly enjoyable listen. A step down from Introducing, but interesting as a step in his development, particularly seeing how far away it is from his first release when recorded only a year later.

OTM about 70s cover on a 1960 record, found that amusing too.

One thing that occurred to me listening to this that was always very different about Wayne from Coltrane was that Wayne had a tendency to play relatively short phrases - sometimes 2-3 notes and then space, whereas Coltrane rarely did that. In that regard he's maybe a bit more like Sonny Rollins.

Anyway, I'm hoping to do Wayning Moments quickly as I'm not really digging it that much and looking forward to getting into the classic Blue Note material.

Agreed! Except I've been really enjoying the familiarity of AB's bag of tricks lately.

I get a little more sense of Wayne Shorter playing *with* the group, and Coltrane on his journey being backed up by the band? Maybe that's the downside of his influence on a few generations of sax players.

I skipped ahead of the early Blue Note classics because they're so familiar, and for the last couple days I've been deeply enjoying the records with Joe Chambers.

Oh hi. I started a new thread very tangentially related to the earlier derail.

it’s not in the spirit of this thread’s (admirable, sane) focus but i’ve been doing an exploded listen of shorter’s work, going through every jazz messengers and miles and etc. record featuring shorter. right now i’m listening to a personal fave some other stuff by grachan moncur iii which just sounds insane alongside shorter’s big blue note band leader dates, somehow occurring in the same year

i really love introducing bc the band is perfect, and wayning moments is enjoyable but i would argue 1963 is a pretty crucial year in shorter’s development, those blakey records, especially when freddie hubbard/cedar walton/curtis fuller join, are just fully unleashed into the stratosphere

I’m all for bringing in commentary on contemporaneous sideman work, I think that’s a good idea. I was more just overwhelmed by the idea of having to do the complete sideman discog.

1964 is really an incredible year for him - not only Night Dreamer, but Blakey's Free for All, Some Other Stuff, and I hadn't realized he was already playing with the Miles Davis band that year. In fact not sure I've ever checked out Miles in Berlin, the "second great quintet's" first recording.

what a fantastic thread

I enjoyed digging into those Vee-Jay albums for the first time. Starting my day now with Night Dreamer, which I have heard before but it's been a while. His compositions and solos really take a big leap forward here.

Night Dreamer is so far ahead.

Night Dreamer really hitting the spot this morning, thanks thread

I've still been stuck on the Et Cetera through Schizophrenia run, and was reminded that Joe Chambers is still with us (and Herbie, and Ron, and Cecil McBee). <3

enjoying second genesis but not as much as introducing

this thread is great but also frustrating because i love this stuff but sometimes i don't have the musical vocabulary to properly talk about it

1964 is really an incredible year for him - not only Night Dreamer, but Blakey's Free for All, Some Other Stuff, and I hadn't realized he was already playing with the Miles Davis band that year. In fact not sure I've ever checked out Miles in Berlin, the "second great quintet's" first recording.

― longtime caller, first time listener (man alive), Saturday, March 11, 2023 3:53 PM (two days ago) bookmarkflaglink

Fun side bar: the records the Quintet made pre-Shorter with George Coleman and Sam Rivers (!!) in the tenor role that Shorter took over

He also played on Lee Morgan's amazing Search for the New Land in 1964, with Herbie Hancock, Grant Green, Reggie Workman, and Billy Higgins.

That's a great record, but tbh on the title track it drives me crazy how they repeat that rubato section with every soloist, it gets too predictable and feels like it takes forever (and becomes almost a little comical when they drop into the groove every time).

I seem to remember Miles said something about how George Coleman solos were "too perfect" (which I guess implied lack of risk taking). Forgot Sam Rivers also had a stint - I was just listening to Fuschia Swing Song the other day, which sort of feels like a Shorter cousin. Shorter and Rivers also both played on Tony Williams' Spring, a record I love.

3. [Horrible 1960s Album Titles Like] Wayning Moments
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b8/Wayning_Moments.jpg
Personnel:
Wayne Shorter – tenor saxophone
Freddie Hubbard – trumpet
Eddie Higgins – piano
Jymie Merritt – double-bass
Marshall Thompson – drums

Figured I might as well officially start this one off at least. It was at first my least favorite of the pre-Blue Note 3 but it's grown on me. Freddie Hubbard's work is v nice here and I like his and Wayne's harmonized leads. Rhythm section is fine, nothing to write home about. Marshall Thomspon is boring on drums. Not really familiar with Eddie Higgins piano work, sounds fine here - looks like he recorded a bunch with Marshall Thompson, so maybe they came as a package. Neither of them have anything in their sideman work that rings a bell for me.

Black Orpheus with a swing feel kind of falls flat for me. It almost works in a noirish sort of way, but not quite. I like the title track and Devil's Island best.

Jymie Merritt has a nice big sound here, is of course v recognizable from his work with the Messengers, and also I had forgotten he's on another record I love, Max Roach's Drums Unlimited

Oh, just realized Merritt wrote Nommo. Such a cool tune.

I like his and Wayne's harmonized leads.

Love (as the listener) the feeling of sitting between them in the first minute of "Devil's Island," with each one far left/right channel during those harmonies.

Totally agree about the swung version of Black Orpheus, weird decision and I don't think it works. And does anyone else hear 'Wayning Moments' as a riff on 'All Blues'?

Can't wait until this thread hits the '80s period, even if that's in 2024. ;)

Definitely heard "All Blues" in that.

After this I might have to veer into the complete Joe Chambers discography

Wayning Moments is probably my favorite of the first three albums, although I can’t really articulate why. I think maybe Shorter’s playing sounds more decisive here? He seemed a bit hesitant on Second Genesis. I agree the stereo splitting of Shorter and Hubbard’s harmonies is really nice. Merritt’s bass is big and swinging throughout. I wish he had a chance to solo somewhere along the way, but he does maintain a strong presence in the mix and keeps things moving. The drums and piano just kinda do their thing without really standing out, but that’s fine. They’re solid. One small complaint is the arrangements can be predictable in that it’s really just Shorter and Hubbard trading solos over and over in a similar order in each song. And the band doesn’t interact much - everyone pretty much stays in their lane. I would’ve loved a few clashes. Overall, though, I like the album. It’s been neat to start this thread at the beginning of Shorter’s career as a leader. I’ve been learning a lot from everyone’s comments.

Alright here goes.

4. Night Dreamer 1964 Blue Note 1964

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/04/Night_Dreamer.jpg
Wayne Shorter – tenor saxophone
Lee Morgan – trumpet
McCoy Tyner – piano
Reggie Workman – bass
Elvin Jones – drums

Although I was generally pretty familiar with his Blue Note material at least through SuperNova, there are certain albums I've spent more vs less time with, and this one is definitely on the less list, and it's been a pleasure to revisit and really dig into.

A few people have said what a leap it is, and I totally agree, in every sense -- compositionally, sonically, improvisationally, band interplay, even the cover art. This is kind of an archetypal early to mid 60s Blue Note record. From the very start it almost has the feeling of someone who went off to live on a mountain for a couple of years to develop themselves and finally came down changed.

The tile track is gorgeous, strong, well-constructed. My kids heard it and said the melody reminded them a little of Ode to Joy, although of course it does the very Wayne Shorter thing of taking a fairly simple melodic/harmonic idea to start with but then taking a sharp left turn.

Wayne opens his solo on Night Dreamer much more confidently than he played on the prior records. I almost think of a shofar blast or someone shouting a sermon. He has ideas, he plays with the melody cleverly, it's interesting and assured the whole way through, and the interplay with the band is fantastic. Elvin Jones was such a great listener, just in constant conversation with the improvisers. Lee Morgan sounds great too - not quite as inventive a player as Wayne but makes a good foil to him here and echoes Wayne's approach of short, definitive phrases. Tyner/Workman/Jones is just one of the great all-time rhythm sections, incredible synergy, communication, such a unit. Tyner's solos are just classic Tyner solos, don't really know what else to say about them. He does his thing and I love his thing.

I keep reading or hearing that Wayne was criticized early for being a Coltrane wannabe or something, but I find that so hard to hear even as he plays with Coltrane's band - hard to imagine someone sounding less like Coltrane on tenor while playing with that band. Coltrane is sheets of sound, infinite permutations of harmony squeezed into a tight space. Shorter is a minimalist by comparison.

Wayne's compositional and melodic ideas become simplified and stripped down a bit vs the earlier records, although I've noticed a thread throughout is that he liked to create a little bit of ambiguity about the tonal center of the piece (although that's not that true about the title track here).

RVG + Blue Note - after listening to those Vee-Jay releases I really appreciate what they achieved in sound. They give the music so much depth and fullness.

Oriental Folk Song is a great tune as well, I could say a lot of the same I said about the first track in terms of the soloists and the band.

Virgo is incredibly lyrical as is his playing on it - you can almost hear a singer singing words to it. FWIW, I noticed this is by far the most played track on the record on Spotify (like 13m plays vs the next being 1m) -- wondering if it was used in some soundtrack or something. I love how the chord changes move too, I feel like they're a little surprising every time. Def a good example of deliberate ambiguity about tonal center. Something about it makes me think of being in a dim room where the mood lighting keeps gradually changing color.

Black Nile - I kind of find the intro on this one annoying but then it settles into a nice hard bop melody/arrangement. I guess Shorter's fiery solo on this one is the closest he gets to sounding Coltrane-ish, but the ideas are really pretty different musically.

Charcoal Blues is a strong track but I just don't have that much to say about it. Love the suspense build in Armageddon before the solos come in. Generally this is just a band that holds your attention every second, there's just so much energy and interaction at all times, no one ever phones it in.

Night Dreamer and Virgo are the big standouts for me, followed by Oriental Folk Song

I really love the cover photo on this as well

yeah, I actually started searching around to see if there was any way to get a print of it, it's great

Just bumping this to give folks a chance to say anything more about Night Dreamer before I do JuJu, one of my faves. Probably tonight.

I keep reading or hearing that Wayne was criticized early for being a Coltrane wannabe or something

i can kind of hear it but only in a distant way — seems to me Shorter has a different overall style from Coltrane, but there's something similar (especially in the early/mid-60s) about Wayne's tone/pitch that puts it closer to JC than some other players from around that time. Not a "wannabe" by any stretch though. Also a pretty strict avoidance of cliche.

yeah, I actually started searching around to see if there was any way to get a print of it, it's great

night dreamer just exudes coolness and mystery that his previous bandleader dates did not even approach. ofc as i mentioned upthread shorter refined his playing and composition during his tenure in the jazz messengers but even those records, awesome and electric as they may be, do not have the drowned-in-smoke atmosphere of his blue note run. i think tyler's making a legit point about shorter's tone re: its indebtedness to coltrane, but in every other way shorter was as pure a miles acolyte as there could be—remove everything extraneous so that your records are permissive, seductive, suggestive moods instead of blowathons*

*nothing against blowathons

sometimes you need a good blowathon, you know?

"virgo" is def my favorite track from night dreamer, nearly as stirring as "infant eyes"

Some thoughts on “Night Dreamer”: They’re all Shorter originals; he’s clearly feeling confident as a composer. His solos are next level throughout. While I can hear hints of Coltrane in some of Shorter’s phrasing, his tone is entirely his own here - he sounds like he knows exactly who he is now (that “come down from the mountain” vibe referenced above). On the “Introducing” album, he sometimes seemed like he needed Morgan to egg him on. No such case on “Night Dreamer.” His command is awe-inspiring. The album is recorded beautifully, other than Workman’s bass being a little muddy. Elvin Jones has that wonderful ability to play offbeat without losing the pulse. The rhythm section overall is seamless. Is there a story behind why McCoy Tyner is credited as “Etc.” on the cover, some sort of contractual dispute?

SUper Nova is so different from anything else he's done, it comes out of the gate doing skronky near euro-free improv. A this stage, you would maybe have expected smrthign a little more "In a Silent Way" mellow.

I think the McCoy thing was contractual, I remember reading about it at some point but can't dig it up. Maybe a conflict with Impulse?

dispatches from the future:

- if you're worried about getting bogged down in the '80s, it may comprise his weirdest solo material

- atlantis is quickly becoming my favorite shorter record after speak no evil and native dancer: slick, smooth, way more composed than improvised... like symphonic jazz without the symphony? chamber jazz? but with state of the art 1985 production so every instrument sounds hyperreal

- if he were any other musician, the work with the danilo perez/john patitucci/brian blade quartet would be the peak of his career, and it still might be

I listened to Atlantis recently and won't be coming back soon, but it's cool. Change a few details (the piano sound, the snare sound/reverb, swap out Alex Acuna (who kills it) for a modern drummer with all the linear playing and cymbal stacks du jour), and the style feels very contemporary compared with a certain strain of current straight 8th note jazz? Not sure if that's exactly a complement or not but I wonder how influential it was.

Managed to watch the first episode of the doc before my Prime free trial expired, worth it for the quintet footage alone.

Man alive, please update with the rest of your listening adventure which you surely kept up with.