rolling #metoo thread for sexual harassment in the music industry so no one misses out when artists we don't give a fuck about like Tim Westwood and Bassnectar get caught

It seems like a lot of the sexual harassment news of the last few years has either ended up in Weinsteins step down as Miramax CEOs or in individual artist threads like Ryan Adams and Swans: Classic or Dud? and Warped Tour 2004 and probably many more.

I just think it would do well to have a catch-all thread just for ILM. It seems like the news stories on this topic come and go and we don't get to see the full size of the issue. We could post news here or links to older revives in individual artist threads.

If this is a bad idea, feel free to let me know.

Anyways, here's Bassnectar:

No, I Do Not Want To Interview Bassnectar.

Here's Tim Westwood:

Tim Westwood = AWESOME

good idea!

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/fifthgear/images/7/70/Tim_westwood.PNG/revision/latest/top-crop/width/360/height/450?cb=20180520153702

let's not forget that Tim Westwood is only one year younger than Theresa May (another child of the clergy) and uses a lot more grecian 2000. The real tragedy is he when got shot, the bullet didn't go right through his testicles. It all seems to have gone quiet about him and his grooming game. What an utter stain.

Whippin hard! What's my ride out music? pic.twitter.com/znI67xOcLO

— TimWestwoodTV (@TimWestwood) June 10, 2020

he's supposedly got knocking on half a million followers yet his "whipping hard" tweet gets him 11 retweets ..hmmm

the Minneapolis hip hop scene had a crazy week of blowing with all sorts of abusers getting outed

https://www.brooklynvegan.com/doomtree-prof-others-respond-after-members-of-minneapolis-hip-hop-scene-accused-of-abuse/

pretty glaring free pass still given to surviving classic rockers about this, feels like a conversation people want to postpone indefinitely

yeah the independent radio station i used to do a show for would send out emails about not playing music by the ducktails guy (for example) when sexual abuse allegations came out, but then people would still play james brown and led zeppelin all the time

does listening to someone's music = giving them a pass? asking for a friend

not necessarily but fandom tends to do that especially when it gets loud enough to shout down critical voices

Prince is a big one no one wants to touch

I still fuck with Prince, David Bowie, Motley Crue. Nugent, Zeppelin, Aerosmith to lesser extent. I don't know why this is, but some of the songs are so emotionally resonant to me that I can't divorce myself from them. I honestly haven't even looked into what Prince has done.

idk if it's a specific one thing, or just the general consensus that he was a humongous asshole, often abusive. but i'll let ums confirm

I'm sure that Prince was a terrible asshole in many facets of his life.

including the time when he was the symbol that he told the press they had to use the special font he gave them when writing about him, send them the special font in a file, then tried to sue people for using it in articles anyway.

https://pitchfork.com/thepitch/1117-heres-every-battle-prince-waged-against-the-internet-and-the-music-industry/

The Tim Westwood thread shows that a whole lot of ILXors really did give a fuck about him.

idk if it's a specific one thing, or just the general consensus that he was a humongous asshole, often abusive. but i'll let ums confirm

― I hear that sometimes Satan wants to defund police (Neanderthal), Thursday, July 9, 2020 5:45 PM (fifty minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

No I mean grooming underage women

In 1990, 16-year-old Garcia met Prince backstage in Barcelona after he saw a tape of her dancing. After she graduated high school in Germany at the age of 17, Prince became her legal guardian.[14][4] Upon moving to Minneapolis, Prince and members of his team helped set her up with her own apartment. "At first, I stayed at the Sofitel, then they moved me to a nice little prairie house at the Country Suites, but I couldn't even make a cup of tea there, so they got me an apartment and rented furniture," she said.[15] At the age of 19, Prince instructed her to get on birth control thus beginning their sexual relationship.[4] After a four-year courtship, they married on February 14, 1996.[16]

After she graduated high school in Germany at the age of 17, Prince became her legal guardian.

Ted Nugent pulled this same trick.

Oh, well...that part I didn't know. fuck!

xpost

xps to Tom

he is like funk flex yes, but singular and glorious in a way only england can be
― bob zemko (bob), Monday, 14 October 2002 07:27 (seventeen years ago) bookmarkflaglink

just imagine how singular and glorious funkmaster flex could have been if he was an upper middle class white English pedo still "doing it" at 62!

Nona Gaye was 18 when they started dating (allegedly started)

A woman I know knows a lot of people from Prince world, an R&B singer told her the story that Prince was producing her debut solo album in the early 80s

She had done vox on the Lipps Inc project and other things

Anyway

Prince demanded a blow job in the studio, she refused, he walked out, end of her solo career

re: Doomtree, this is 100% shallow but my reaction to them after their set at the first Eaux Claires festival was “these people are terrible and I wish them all nothing but ill fortune”; I’m just sorry that their implosion is built on so much abuse and suffering.

I'd prefer to keep Bowie, James Brown and Prince out of this not because they're too beloved, just cause they're dead that seems like a different category of queasiness. unless someone here is a necromancer-for-cancellation? surely we already have a "separating the art from the artist?" thread already

but obv I'm not gonna make an actual effort to thread-police

I hear that Gesualdo guy was an asshole.

and yet he's still being played every hour, on the hour, on classic rock radio, sickening

'Moro, lasso, al mio duolo' is an undeniable jam, though.

Do these kids walking about with his face on their t-shirts even know though?

https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.786988743.1102/ra,unisex_tshirt,x1860,101010:01c5ca27c6,front-c,336,366,600,600-bg,f8f8f8.jpg

Part of it is living in the middle of Minneapolis' Prince Industrial Complex and the endless hagiography gets old

Gesualdo is obviously cancelled in my book

didn't actually know any of the bad Prince stories, surprised i didn't see anyone make a lot of noise about them when he died

we all know rock n roll was partly built on this but it would be nice if we didn’t have to wait for the people to die, then wait for the mourning to die down, before any kind of minor reckoning with them. even nicer if it was their peers calling them out but that’s not happening & who else wants to deal with the threats

obv this is still going on in every genre/industry & statistically some of the ppl I like now are going to be creeps. which is shit but I’d rather know about it. lot more stuff is surely coming out soon, whether it will change anything idk. kids still love certain soundcloud dudes we knew about already. I hope they grow out of it

Worth noting that Rodney P and Ty (R.I.P) relentlessly told us of Tim Westwood’s predatory nature...no one listened. #SurvivingTimWestwood pic.twitter.com/FWGxLABWMQ

— Michael Morgan (@mikewhoatv) June 22, 2020

I'd been wondering how Westwood managed to stay so protected - from the viewpoint of 2020 it feels weird to think of the extent to which he was the biggest and pretty much only gatekeeper for any British MC (and the only person playing most rap music in the UK full stop). We're talking about a 20-30 year period of dominance here.

The even grimmer conclusion is that because he was primarily targeting young black girls, no one really cared.

I'm surprised there isn't more concerted anger directed against him from some of the bigger grime stars (unless I've missed it) because he needs dragging down, what he gets away with is outrageous.

mind you as a much as a joke character as he he seems, he still obv wields a lot of power and influence

seeming like a joke character seems to help many people who wield a lot of power & influence

Prime Ministers, for instance.

The Prince stories, while unsurprising, are really bumming me out.

yeah it's depressing
I did watch Purple Rain for the first time in probably 20 years on Netflix and that whole movie is a real grab bag of red flags though, yikes I was kinda shocked at how horrible The Kid came off

to your Doomtree post, I think those guys (except Dessa, I think she was in a different lane) were super hard drug abusers

I always felt like The Kid was supposed to look half horrible and not a model for behavior recommended by prince

but purple rain aside, djp otm. He was one of the few figures i would call a personal hero

its hard to process when a huge part, maybe the hugest part, of an artist's project is how sexuality fits into the universe they constructed

Yeah, my reading of Purple Rain was that The Kid was well on his way to becoming a piece of shit in the same vein as his father but music and Appolonia opened his eyes to his mistakes and gave him the strength to set his feet on a different path.

Also I don't mean to keep harping on this in the context of this thread but the Doomtree set was SO BAD, like half a step removed from Edina-Christian-youth-group-rapping-for-Jesus levels of bad

its hard to process when a huge part, maybe the hugest part, of an artist's project is how sexuality fits into the universe they constructed

I wouldn't say it's hard, rather that my take on it was that he was projecting a stage persona most of the time and I hoped/assumed he turned it off when it wasn't appropriate (which is of course naive when actually considered but still).

i'm starting to think that being a sexual predator / sexual power dynamics are like the quiet part of what being a successful pop star is or has always been about - the open secret. some people really seemed to relish it / some people were reluctant participants but obviously that doesn't change the end result - the pain of countless women (and queers) who suffered abuse.

'pop star' but also music industry exec etc.

this is a little out-of-bounds of this thread but i have my theories about why sexual abuse is so commonly done by people in these positions of power. part of it is the alienation of being an industrial exploiter in an exploitative capitalist framework - that very easily translates into sexual exploitation.

imo. anyway.. bassnectar sucks

I would like to think there's a clear line between "sexual power dynamics" and "sexual predator" that is defined by consent but... humanity seems hellbent on making that impossible

In the Bassnectar thread, I mentioned some half-remembered accusations toward some guy who was on the business side of things. I think he was a promoter or something in Brooklyn? Does anyone know what I'm talking about?

I would like to think there's a clear line between "sexual power dynamics" and "sexual predator" that is defined by consent

for sure

i'm starting to think that being a sexual predator / sexual power dynamics are like the quiet part of what being a successful pop star is or has always been about

― carin' (map)

i hate to sound like a second-wave feminist but i do feel like there is inherently a sexual component to the paradigm of masculine power

yeah i mean i guess what i was trying to say is that abuse in the culture industry is like a reflection of the fact that the culture industry abuses people for product. it sees people as objects for consumption so treating people as sexual objects is in line with that, especially for people who are really invested in that model. and more predatory kinds of behaviors are like an enhanced version of that. not trying to discount the elements of patriarchy that play into this but imo it's not just men behaving like pigs, it's a larger complex of alienation that brings in capitalism and sometimes weird quasi-religious cultism (after all music is pretty magical/spiritual).

i don't want to minimize the awfulness of the phenomenon and how prevalent it is.

i mean, i'd argue that it's not just "culture", i'd argue that anywhere you see powerful men, in for instance circumstances of political power, those situations are very conducive to abuse.

I assume the abuse is functional as part of the power & how it’s maintained/reproduced

I wouldn't say it's hard, rather that my take on it was that he was projecting a stage persona most of the time and I hoped/assumed he turned it off when it wasn't appropriate (which is of course naive when actually considered but still).

remember that Sinead O'Connor physically fled from her one personal meeting with Prince after she'd had an international #1 record with a song he wrote. one presumes that he was worse with women who weren't ostensibly rich and powerful, although also that he had an eye for targets who were already susceptible to abuse due to past victimhood.

oh, I'd always assumed that she fled due to him being a sex creep; apparently last year she revealed that he had weird control issues over her having a hit without being one of his intentional proteges, wanted her to submit to being his protege and agree to only speak publicly in a manner he approved of, and physically attacked her when she declined. And, while her reportage these days isn't always reliable, that a female emplyee of his was hospitalised with broken ribs from a beating at the time.

this thread is super depressing but this made me lol irl

I hear that Gesualdo guy was an asshole.

― pomenitul, Thursday, July 9, 2020 7:36 PM (yesterday)bookmarkflaglink

and yet he's still being played every hour, on the hour, on classic rock radio, sickening

― Kate (rushomancy), Thursday, July 9, 2020 7:38 PM (yesterday)

we all know rock n roll was partly built on this but it would be nice if we didn’t have to wait for the people to die, then wait for the mourning to die down, before any kind of minor reckoning with them. even nicer if it was their peers calling them out but that’s not happening & who else wants to deal with the threats

I can't believe Jimmy Page has spent the last 40 years living the life of luxury instead of serving a hefty prison sentence. Gary Glitter must look at that guy and conclude that his own biggest mistake was failing to grease the right palms.

I think it's more about failing to be in Led Zeppelin and being Gary Glitter instead.

fans were openly talking about child rape like it was supposed to be hilarious/awesome/badass until v recently, it was apparently a selling point

in the UK after jimmy savile there was a brief moment when more ppl actually seemed to want to deal with this shit, interest seemed to die down a lot after the behaviour of actual cool people started being questioned

In my city there are a lot of disturbing allegations coming to light on the music 'scene' right now

Stranger still is people with a reputation for being dodgy themselves being very publicly vocal in the pile-on against those who have abusive tendencies, almost as if they have something to hide

Funny that

Different world here of course

a coke dealer who is at after hours venues here often that is an acquaintance of mine posted a notes app apology for his toxic behavior in his Insta story recently. weird world we're in

Weird that he apologized, not weird whatsoever that local scenes are crawling w creeps??

yeah, it was the apology with the language and format of a public figure or artist that was incongruous. after hours drug dealer definitely not a surprising person to be a creep

I think it’s good that this nobody loser creep apologized publicly. If that happened more often maybe fewer people would have to endure being harassed and assaulted.

the booker at a significant venue here has been publically accused of some really grim stuff, and the way it has snowballed has been horrible to watch. It's been an open secret for nearly a decade that this man has been violent, aggressive and abusive to other men in the local music scene, and a number of women have come out in the past few weeks explaining that their relationships with him have been characterised by domestic abuse. But because he's managed to position himself as someone with influence and power within the local scene, very few people have felt able to speak out about this stuff. It's the classic story of how these guys manage to get away with it and for so long: manouvre into a situation where they have power, then abuse that power to allow shitty behaviour to go unchallenged.

People like that might suddenly find themselves very exposed when venues run out of cash and start closing down.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CCqb8P3FJb5/

^ Clem Creevy of Cherry Glazerr names Sean Redman, former bandmate and current bassist of the Buttertones, as a statutory rapist.

No longer current, it seems and they've been dropped by the label too.

I saw some allegations on twitter against the singer as well.

never heard of em before but good job all around

Quebec's being rocked by a new #MeToo movement, where people make (non-anonymous) allegations to certain websites/FB groups, who vet the reports somehow and then publish these allegations anonymously. (Obviously lots could go wrong here.)

More than 1100 people have been named so far, including celebrated local musicians like Kevin Parent, Bernard Adamus, Alex Nevsky, Yann Perreault and members of Simple Plan, Timber Timbre, Radio Radio, etc. It's much heavier/broader than any previous MeToo stuff to hit here. https://dissonnom.wordpress.com/?fbclid=IwAR3xrYuFh69clvKTE_RwFgb2hk0Fp5Z39gu6ZNC4z1w8lrjzU2-SaF6OtqM

so...pretty much everyone, then?

who vet the reports somehow

How does this work, exactly?

i read a detailed post about it on Victims_Voices_Montreal (which has since been taken down)... my impression was that most of the vetting comes down to trying to flag if the accuser is a sock-puppet or troll. obviously: not without the capacity to make mistakes.

https://www.instagram.com/lured_by_burger_records/

yeah that's really disgusting stuff

i feel like that label fits in with whiney's "PIZZA!" thread

in more ways than one

snorted out loud at work

Interesting, that link sean posted about the Quebec allegations has already disappeared.

came here to post the lured by burger insta. definitely not cool how widespread it seemed to be in that scene. i fucking hate people ugh.

As the Burger stuff comes to light, a lot of people on Twitter are also saying that Mac DeMarco has had credible allegations? Has anyone seen this?

idk about mdm. after hearing about this stuff so much recently from la scene dudes, i kind of just get totally cynical and start believing that any dude who plays guitar is like that to some extent or another. i know: i'm not being fair, but jfc how common is this sort of behavior in "the scene"?

unrelated, but over the last week there have also been allegations thrown at london singer songwriter cosmo pyke which sucks because i genuinely like his music.

also sorry for the reddit link; the twitter account that was highlighted for initially calling him out is on private or restricted or whatever twitter's variation of that is. big time trigger warning for that link, btw. tons of victim blaming / shaming. it's reddit; you probably already know.

I'll bet my house Mac DeMarco is a piece of shit

there was already this

http://archive.is/iURtf

As the Burger stuff comes to light, a lot of people on Twitter are also saying that Mac DeMarco has had credible allegations? Has anyone seen this?

― Badmotorfinger Debate Club (MFB), Monday, July 20, 2020 3:53 PM (fifty-three minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I have heard things about Mac Demarco

(my gf knew him when he lived here and knew girls who had unpleasant experiences with him)

"clearly, the responsible thing to do here is to rebrand our name in all caps and no vowels, it's the only way to atone" pic.twitter.com/Bb2hmftagT

— Al Shipley (@alshipley) July 21, 2020

goddamn, they found a way to make it even worse.

fullerton cali forn eye aye

had totally missed this about mind of a dragon until i saw it mentioned in ra's ukg article from today:

https://www.residentadvisor.net/news/72888

"grim reapah!" BRGRRRL

this burger recs things has got me genuinely heated. seriously want a bunch of cis and trans women to bamboozle their collective way into that new imprint thingie, just fuck their shit up, and erase them from history. what a fucking joke.

they blew it by not calling the female imprint "FRR BRGR"

Disappointing to see that Pitchfork's article about this today is basically just repeating the label's official statement while only obliquely mentioning the existence of allegations, while others (like Consequence of Sound) actually delve into the specific allegations and bands involved.

"grim reapah!" BRGRRRL

― trapped out the barndo (crüt), Tuesday, July 21, 2020 11:28 AM (eighteen minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

A+ crut

yeah I am incapacitated

well played

https://pitchfork.com/news/burger-records-shuts-down-completely/

When asked about the future of the label and its leadership, Bohrman responded to Pitchfork, “We decided to fold the label.” When asked if Burger would still continue as the rebranded BRGR RCRDS, Bohrman replied, “Nope.” Asked for further comment, he linked to a clip of Porky Pig saying “that’s all folks.”

https://acegif.com/wp-content/gifs/nope-25-gap.jpg

holy shit.

they'd've gotten away with it if it hadn't been for those meddling kids

Meanwhile, the Bloodshot situation that blew up last year is apparently now leading to the demise of the label as a whole -- artists not getting paid, label now up for sale:

https://www.savingcountrymusic.com/bloodshot-records-artists-warned-of-sale-accounting-issues/

for once, please read the comments

Indeed, worth noting.

Sarah Shook's linked video is also good for a perspective of one of the affected artists, with a perspective on the employees.

Ian Svenonius—the singer and songwriter behind numerous bands including the Make-Up, Escape-ism, Nation of Ulysses, and Chain and the Gang—posted a statement to Instagram on Friday (July 24) where he admitted to a history of being “completely inappropriate to women.” That post, viewed by Pitchfork, was later deleted and his Instagram account was made private.

(...)

“I want to use this forum to say that I support people speaking out for the eradication of abusive predatory modes and also that I am absolutely one of the guilty parties,” he wrote. “That, through my narcissism, egotism, and thoughtlessness, I have acted the creep. That I have made people I cared about and respected feel terrible, have been completely inappropriate to women.” He added, “To anyone I have made feel bad or uncomfortable, I sincerely apologize and throw myself at your mercy. I always believed that I was a revolutionary and now my revolutionary act is self-immolation.”

"self-immolation" apparently including the post itself. as always a master of metacriticism

I have only ever seen this dude's name on ILX

he was the very first SASSIEST BOY IN AMERICA -- i think at one point several years ago, me and a friend were hanging out drinking bourbon and reading my old Sassy magazines, and we friended Ian on FB.

who were some other Sassiest Boys? was Sassy trying to warn us?

i was gonna say! the sassiest boy in America is admitting he was a creep and saying he's sorry. this is a new day in the USA.

he lied about his age to win the contest

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Clark_(indie_rock_musician)

i would hope that the sassiest boy in America would sincerely apologize if he engaged in such behavior -- though if he were truly a paragon of sassiness, he would not have done such things ever.

13-Point Program to Subvert Sassiness

i think there were only 2 sassiest boys -- the magazine got sold and eviscerated around 1992

ian's a total creep from firsthand experience

when ian svenonius is apologizing publicly that does something to normalize admitting that you have been a creep/jerk/asshole/whatever you want to call it
that's something

other men who were Sassy editorial faves (just for those of you who were not subscribers -- which is probably the majority of ilx) : Michael Stipe, Iggy Pop, Kurt Cobain, Evan Dando ...

I would agree if not for the hasty deletion. I guess there's a chance it's going to be replaced with something more considered? xp

I saw a couple days ago that the guy who goes by Nobunny (Justin Champlin) also self-outed, but since he's done stuff on Burger I didn't bother.

https://pitchfork.com/news/nobunny-admits-to-taking-advantage-of-young-women-and-teenage-girls-says-hes-quitting-music/

"Sex Drugs and RnR became my religion.
Please Kill Me was my Bible.
Kim Fowley was my god."

i think ian svenonius is unable to not write like ian svenonius, which made his 'apology' read like another art project

^^

This was been widely requested and it is now (again) a reality! Here is the re-posted list of accused predators in the music scene. I hope that this can be a good reference and can keep people protected.https://t.co/WeIMBfBW2u

— 🍓🦔 Jay 🍓🦔 (@JayyKess) July 21, 2020

Avi Zahner-Isenberg of Avi Buffalo.

https://www.stereogum.com/2093069/avi-buffalo-accused-of-rape-by-former-bandmate-rebecca-coleman/news/

(Horrific story btw, even by the standards of this thread)

Fuck... that's horrible :(

I treasure their both lp's.

writes, “Upon my exit from the band I signed a contract not to talk negatively about Avi/Avi Buffalo, etc. I do not know if this contract still stands, but honestly, I do not give a fuck. Time’s Up.”

Out of curiosity: isn't this a dead giveaway, a confession of guilt, or is this standard practice? I can see why you'd have this contract made if your a huge star, but for Avi Buffalo?

yeah I do/did love both those albums a lot, esp the 2nd. I suspect that one in particular will sound very different to me now.

Xpost assuming that was the condition of a payout? That's the only thing that makes sense

That couid be it, ums.

Simon agreed, the second is a minor masterpiece imo. Always championed it as such. A lot of songs will now sound very different.

i have such a weird relationship with this topic. like i hate it so much, but simultaneously feel its existence to be so very necessary.

GGRRRRRRRRRRRRR

This is also very bad (and despite the URL the band is not spared), proceed with caution if the subject is close to home.

https://www.stereogum.com/2093160/the-killers-road-crew-sexual-misconduct-investigation/news/

pic.twitter.com/Cm52VYx5C1

— Merge Records (@mergerecords) July 29, 2020

I'm of two minds about the Svenonius post. On the one hand, it could be good a sign of sincerity that he admitted to being "completely inappropriate to women" without being specifically prompted by an accusation. But there's a more cynical interpretation, which is that this is just preemptive damage control, so that if someone does accuse him of something he can deny it while pointing to this statement as a mark of his credibility. I'm a fan of his, so I really hope it's the first one.

― JRN, Tuesday, July 28, 2020 12:46 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

IDK who JRN is, but on point

even moreso than most stories of this nature, it leaves me wondering less about the story itself and more about other, unnamed (and perhaps never-named) acts. just how prevalent is this sort of arrangement among major touring acts? I wonder if maybe, as more people transition out of working in road crews as their primary source of income (by COVID-related necessity), more of these stories will emerge since there will no longer be direct professional consequences. xps

maybe they're just being cautious, but Merge's statement makes me assume there's more to come on the Svenonius front and that it's bad.

FYI, most settlement agreements (of any kind) will have a confidentiality provision prohibiting either party from disclosing the terms of the settlement. In a situation like a sexual assault allegation, the agreement may also include a non-disparagement provision, meaning neither party may say anything negative about the other party.

One the things NY (and perhaps CA) have done post-#metoo is to limit the ability of parties to include these types of provisions in settlement agreements, in an effort to keep victims from being silenced.

thank you, that is helpful legal context

Avi Buffalo, such great music. :c

could tell from the albums that the guy was a sexually frustrated nut, but damn. RIP

SubPop not messing about:

After hearing about a rape accusation that was shared yesterday, Sub Pop is in the process of removing all Avi Buffalo music from our stores and digital services. We do not accept sexual abuse and assault towards anybody and we commend anyone who is able to muster up the strength to speak out and share their experiences; that's not easy. We believe and support Rebecca and hope that she is able to cope and heal.

out of curiosity, what now happens to those avi buffalo records and whatever svenonius put out with merge?

is it like, here, we're done with you but you can do what you want with the music, or sorry, we continue to hold the rights and they are now out of print forever?

i was gonna say. seems a raw deal for the (presumed) many people who played/produced/otherwise contributed on that stuff and are now having their work shitcanned

that's a good q. I can't imagine in most cases they'd be taking much of a hit in terms of income by just relinquishing the rights but I'm just guessing really

lbut I mean it's more than money, just having your work erased

like say Miles would be a candidate for cancellation but think of how many great artists and producers wrote, performed and crafted the music under the aegis of "Miles Davis"

it's a good point. no easy answer to that one. but the answer moving forward has to be more accountability among everyone involved in real time.

Feel like nearly every single one of your favorite bands are guilty of this shit. Booze, drugs, power, euphoric worship and invincibility. I’m glad this abuse is finally being called out and will hopefully be destroyed, but I also wonder how many men righteously tut-tutting would’ve behaved any differently if they were in the same circumstances.

Honestly I think that what hypothetical people might have done is an irrelevance, I'm sure there are many many professional musicians who haven't ever been sexual predators

i was just watching Last Dance the last few days and Michael Jordan was talking about his early experiences with the Bulls and said he walked into a hotel room and "there was cocaine over here, weed over there, and girls over there"

in this scenario and so many others like it, "girls" are not people, they are a category of treat. "girls" is often given as the reason xyz person started playing in a band in the first place. usually, it's "a joke" but is it? until this mentality changes, and tbh it has not, "girls" will not be considered "people". they are (we are) treats :(

usually, it's "a joke" but is it?

I don't think it's usually a joke tbh!

that's what people say if you call them out on it
it's what they always say! get a sense of humor! lighten up!

La Lechera otm

"girls" is often given as the reason xyz person started playing in a band in the first place. usually, it's "a joke" but is it? until this mentality changes, and tbh it has not, "girls" will not be considered "people"

this is a big part of why I'm never not suspicious of groupie culture as a whole despite some groupies and ex-groupies reporting positive or at least not-negative experiences. I would strongly recommend no-fucking-the-fans as a generally accepted norm/standard and then take, idk, 100 years or so to sort these issues out more effectively first

it's complicated ... because there are non-negative experiences, and there is sometimes a sense of conquest on the part of "the girls" like, "I hooked up with [famous musician]. Let me tell you about his dick." ... It's an extension of getting an autograph or a photo with the person in question, in some cases. ... And, by no means is this meant as a defense of abuse of power or defense of predators. Just that there are different dynamics at play. The "pay (with your vagina) to play" dynamic is gross and I have personally watched it play out with people I know.

As in, the musician/fan relationship is a bit different than the musician/person in a lower-status professional position in the entertainment industry.

idk I am sure part of my thinking about this stuff is the fact I am middle-aged and spent a long time just accepting that "this is the way things are" and making peace with the fact that "woman musician x" stopped getting gigs around the time she stopped letting "male musician y" abuse her, and relatedly, it's an open secret that "male musician y" is a bad drunk and has been sexually abusive to women while drunk for decades, but because he is a "pillar of the scene" with famous friends, no one calls him out and bans him from things.

^^ these are two different "male musician y"s fyi

I will allow it is definitely a little more complicated than my blanket suspicion implies

Sex can be fun and exciting! Sometimes sex is fun and exciting at the time (... sometimes this is because you are drunk and/or high) and then you regret it. ... Or you have trauma that makes it such that you are prone to making unhealthy decisions re sexual behavior ... or it can have a mixture of positive and negative consequences. I feel like we should all know this as adults? And then the question is, going from these presumptions, what's the best community response?

I agree that sex is sometimes acceptable. However (MUCH of the time, I know there are a lot of variations here) we're talking about young women who are poorer, often intoxicated, and hold the musician/artist on a pedestal. For a whole lot of reasons that seems destined to more frequently *not only* result in bad outcomes, but also, afterwards, in situations where the women in question will feel compelled to keep quiet about it. (Even moreso than "normal")

I don't want to diminish that there are lots and lots of variations, but if I was in a touring band I would probably insist on handling it like My Chemical Romance apparently did: play board games in the fucking tour bus and keep it in your pants.

it takes a lot of touring before you can even afford a bus, Simon ...

lol, well I mean admittedly when I think of the worst excesses of this nature I am generally thinking of bigger / more successful bands. (also I keep thinking about the Killers story which is definitely an influence). this is not to say that piddly shit indie dudes are any more virtuous cause they're obviously not, biggest acts just have a wider array of potential enablers

the people getting called out now are the smaller fries ... in some ways that gets more fraught because the relationships are more complicated.

I agree that sex is sometimes acceptable.

"I HAVE NO FURTHER QUESTIONS YOUR HONOR"

Thankfully, it appears that horrible Killers story may have actually reflected a joke or “hazing” incident (and the person who reported the incident seems to accept this conclusion).

thanks for sharing that, I only saw the lawyers' statement and it was....very lawyerly

Yeah, it’s written in a way that makes you want to instinctively distrust it (but the details seem thorough).

https://blavity.com/philly-singer-jaguar-wright-says-she-was-sexually-assaulted-by-common?category1=music&category2=news&item=2

wow. that's. . .upsetting.

'Colbert' fires music booker after Tashaki Miyaki singer accuses him of misconduct at CMJ 2010 https://t.co/jvccKIK8cf pic.twitter.com/HXRA3Uzu8m

— Stereogum (@stereogum) August 5, 2020

Kweli has been accused of misconduct before (by Res) and has been acting a whole fool late, running an extended harassment campaign against a Black woman on twitter

Kweli has gone nuts

is the colbert booker related to legendary former mayor of Providence, RI?

I thought he was related to the senator from New Jersey.

is the colbert booker related to legendary former mayor of Providence, RI?

― sarahell, Wednesday, August 5, 2020 2:44 PM (thirty-four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

I don't think he's related to Ben McOsker

Buddy Cianci ??

I admit that was also my first thought when I saw his name.

wasn't the story that he stubbed out his cigar on the body of a dude his wife was fucking? ...

Attacked him with a fireplace poker, IIRC

(Or maybe I’m mixing up two different stories? R.I.P., Buddy)

Btw, here’s another case from today’s news: https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2020-08-05/takeoff-migos-accused-sexual-assault

Another for today: https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-08-05/grammy-winning-producer-faces-15-sexual-assault-charges

Mark Kozelek:

https://pitchfork.com/news/mark-kozelek-of-sun-kil-moon-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-three-women

yeah, bumped the koz thread for that. not to diminish anything but it just seemed like a matter of time with him, tbh

the laura snapes incident was a fairly clear advance warning

not to diminish anything but it just seemed like a matter of time with him, tbh

― unpaid intern at the darvo institute (Simon H.), Thursday, August 13, 2020 8:43 AM

i'm glad this occurred to someone else too. the guy has always given me the most uncomfortable vibe.

really if you were any sort of rhp/skm fan at all just knowing the whole history with katy was enough to conclude that mark kozelek is a bad person, so like, i'm also not surprised, but incidentally i hate being not surprised about this shit

also the details were worse than i had anticipated

well yeah. i'm the worst kind of cynic: simultaneously not surprised, but disappointed all the same.

enh, "disappointed" feels like the wrong word there.

upset, angry, disgusted. . . yes, those all work too.

I didn't/don't know the Katy story tbh

I stand in total solidarity with these brave women. Grateful to Pitchfork for dedicating resources to this. Shame on everyone who let him creep back into their coverage or enabled him professionally in the past five years. Hope it was worth it https://t.co/sdQr3EryC9

— Laura Snapes (@laurasnapes) August 13, 2020

Nice choice of picture there.

I didn't/don't know the Katy story tbh

― unpaid intern at the darvo institute (Simon H.), Thursday, August 13, 2020 9:07 AM (nine minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

it's not something i can provide a narrative with concrete details about, but i remember learning years ago that the relationship mark kozelek had with katy (of "katy's song," who he described as his "muse," and who he later memorialized in "lost verses" after she died of cancer) was pretty fucked up

right, the gory details probably don't need to go itt but I can't imagine being koz's "muse" was any kind of picnic

I thought it was well-established that Kozelek is an ass.

him and the modest mouse dude seem like two of the same kind of unpleasant.

speaking of: whatever happened to with the modest mouse guy's allegations?

I've known several women who slept with Mark, back in the late 90's. Those were consensual encounters but the common talk afterward was that he was 'creepy', it was 'unpleasant', and there was something just off about him. Some of my best friends shared the Painters practice space in the early days and they fucking hated Mark (everyone liked Anthony and Jerry though). I knew someone who also toured as their guitar tech; I never talked to him about that but his feelings toward RHP changed rather drastically when that was over. All this to say: unsurprising, disappointing, but everything he's released since Among the Leaves has been unlistenable to me and the fact that it sells and he continues to throw it out there tells me his ego has not been in check.

I forgot all about the Modest Mouse allegations. I have a vague recollection that it wound up being poorly substantiated or something; but I don't remember it turning out to be a complete lie like the Bright Eyes allegation was. Surprise: Koz loved Modest Mouse, maybe now we know why.

RHP and 4ad groups on FB predictably horrified aside from what appear to be mostly men from Latin countries who think all sexual assault allegations are always false. Machismo dies hard in some cultures.

There’s being «an ass», and then there’s something like this shit. But yeah, not really surprised I guess

xposts

Respect to Amy Zimmerman and Pitchfork for doing a careful job with the story.

BTW thinking on those Killers stories mentioned earlier in the thread, this came up today too:

In case anyone was wondering. The last time I spoke with anyone with the Killers’ legal team was the day their press release came out. They would not let me read it & only got a copy of it from the bbc because they asked me for comment. 1/

— Chez Cherrie (@ofcherrie) August 13, 2020

I think I read this interview with Isaac Brock from Modest Mouse when it came out and at the time I took what he said about the ‘99 rape allegation face value. I have totally different take these days of course. https://www.avclub.com/modest-mouse-1798208359"> https://www.avclub.com/modest-mouse-1798208359

Here’s a 2015 piece that goes into detail about the circumstances around the allegation and its coverage in The Stranger.

this seems like it fits here although i can't quite get to the bottom of it

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23BrendonUrieSpeakUp&src=trend_click

ah! well,

CW // sexual assault

Context for '#BrendonUrieSpeakUp' trending: People are coming forward to say P!ATD's Brendon Urie has touched them inappropriately. They are also upset with his silence on the Zack Hall situation (misogyny, pedophilia, sexual assault against 12 yr olds).

— I explain trends and save you scrolls. (@iexplaintrends) August 13, 2020

Whatever it was, it's gone now.

I'm not sure whether reposting that 2015 piece on Brock is supposed to exonerate him or damn him, because it is so full of such classic 101 Victim Blaming techniques that I had to peace out before reaching the end?

I was just addressing the “whatever happened to...” question with a relatively recent piece that also links to the original Stranger article (for context). You’re welcome to post a different one.

Maybe I'm a dickhead, but I'd love to see the Modest Mouse dude get his comeuppance fairly soon.

Have there been any whispers about bad behaviour by him apart from that one 1999 story?

There’s other “bad behavior” mentioned in that Buzzfeed article (drug abuse; a DUI with a passenger in the car), but I haven’t heard about anything else related to sexual assault.

drug abuse?? poor form for someone in a prominent rock band

Well, that’s why I used quotes, lol

also (DUI aside) the drug abuse detailed in the story is being like 20 years old and tripping in the woods iirc

To amend my post above, I realIzed that the Buzzfeed piece doesn’t actually link to The Stranger article (“Immodest Mouse: Singer Accused of Rape,” 3/18/99) — apparently it’s been taken down. When it references the article, it links to a book about Modest Mouse, and then to a 4/1/99 Letters to the Editor page (still hosted at TheStranger.com) with responses to the article.

What a dogshit headline, “Immodest Mouse: Singer Accused of Rape,”

p funny tho

At risk of reviving a clusterfuck, I’m going to get into many of the same issues that plagued the Jane’s Addiction thread, regarding a situation that is ambiguous. I’m willing, in the absence of further evidence, to conceded that Brock’s case was _ambiguous_. But that piece was so thoroughly soaking in rape culture tropes that it makes it more suspicious, not less.

-where is the victim/survivor/rapee’s point of view? It is missing. It is alluded to, but never detailed. We only ever read about the disputed sex act through the eyes of the accused, we are only invited to empathise with the alleged perpetrator.

rape is a crime of subjectivity. The people involved are on different scripts. One says it was consensual, the other says it was coercive. To *erase* the subjective view of the person making the allegation is to erase the crime.

-the character of the accused is discussed in detail, presenting him in a favourable light, before the rape charges are ever introduced. He’s a 'Nice Guy' who would previously have joined anti-rape protesters, who is now portrayed as the *victim* of said protesters. The details of his current relationship are considered exonerating, as he is in a committed relationship with a sound and sensible woman. (Ted Bundy was able to charm sound and sensible women into relationships!)

-the details that *are* described about the girl are all ways of presenting her as differing from the 'perfect victim' script. She was 'known within the scene' (she had a Reputation.) She was there for a talk with an ex-boyfriend. (she was not a virgin.) She had been drinking.

-the fact of her drinking is produced as evidence that the event was somehow... *less* rapey and more ambiguous, even though alcohol is the tool most frequently used by rapists. When discussing Perry Farrell, people seemed to recognise that a much older man introducing mind-altering chemicals to a younger woman not legally able to obtain them herself, was something that warped the power dynamics to make it *more* ethically dubious, not less. The girl becoming intoxicated, while drinking at his table, (notice how it is totally elided, who supplied the alcohol?) is supposed to somehow exonerate Brock?

-the offer of accommodation. Here we have the introduction of ambiguity, in the sense of the Crossing of Sexual Scripts. We have a teenage girl, illicitly intoxicated to the point where she is unable to locate her keys, stranded in a dodgy part of town, at odd hours of the night, a situation which most young women would read as dangerous enough to require a companion on the walk home. Women are taught, by Rape Culture, that being alone, intoxicated, in an unfamiliar part of town, late at night, is the single most dangerous situation where one can expect to be raped. She is coming from a place of vulnerability, and looking for a haven.

-the man offers her a place to stay. This *appears* to be an offer of a safe haven, protected from 3AM-Rape-Streets. The sexual scripts here completely differ. Rape Culture teaches men, that if a woman willingly enters your house/apartment/hotel room/tourbus after midnight, she is essentially ~Consenting To Enter The Rape Palace~ and is tacitly agreeing to any and all sexual contact.

We’ve seen, in those stories of Mark K, how abusive men use those 'crossed scripts' of "oh, you need to call an Uber, come back to my hotel, you can do it there" to impose a sexual ~Rape Palace~ script on a woman who believes she is on a Safe Haven script.

-the former housemate is given more of a voice, in the story, than the *victim* is! This housemate sees no apparent connection between the two events they overhear:
a) Brock tells the girl to be quiet or the housemate will hear
b) The girl is quiet, there are no noises indicating any kind of distress, therefore no rape can have taken place

In a safe haven script, 'be quiet so my housemate does not hear' is specific statement indicating, if you make noise, object, protest, you will be in trouble, you will lose the Safe Haven, and be ejected back on the 3AM-Rape-Streets. It is not an indication of consent, it is a quite conceivably a veiled thread.

-The victim is quiet, she does not scream, indicate distress, or try to run away, therefore clearly the sex was consensual.

This is just pure Rape Culture. People are taught that there are only 2 reactions to fear or threat – Fight or Flight. People who study the experiences of rape survivors, repeatedly encounter two different reactions from the point of view of the rapee: freeze, or flop. These are the overwhelming responses described by survivors of rape, to either completely freeze up and become physically petrified and incapable of moving; or to become completely passive and flop about like a dead fish.

In predator theory, these responses are sometimes compared to other prey responses within the natural world. Deer freeze in the headlamps. If you are a creature that has pretty good natural camouflage, facing a predator who works by sight, especially sight which is sensitive to movement, *freeze* is actually a successfully adaptive response to attack. Animals play dead. If what you are facing is not a predator looking to eat you, but a much bigger animal patrolling its territory or its defending its young, an inert, floppy prey which appears to be already dead, is no longer a threat, and will generally be left alone. *Flop* can be a successfully adaptive response to attack.

If you are working from a model that sees 'fight or flight' as the only potential reactions to rape, you will miss the actual 'freeze or flop' reactions that 90% of rape survivors report. That's why so many rape activists are trying to work to change sexual scripts from 'absense of no' to 'enthusistic consent'. The person writing this piece is showing right here, that they have *no fucking idea* what rape is, or how people who are being raped act. And that was the point where I stopped reading.

Without the actual words of the girl (though she is reported as describing the experience as rape) I cannot make that subjective call of 'rape' or 'not rape'. But the way that things are presented in this piece, every angle, every framing, makes it *more* likely to be rape, not less.

What a completely unnecessary post.

maybe? I was aiming to pull at the noted threads of ambiguity in the (third-hand version of) the case as reported, but had had several drinks. any passing mod is encouraged to axe my post if it's especially dumb or bad or incoherent, or just on whim

not every thread needs pulling

I just found about Ian Watkins from Lostprophets being convicted in 2018: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Watkins_(Lostprophets_singer)

This one is particularly enraging because it even involves baby rape.

I've also heard that Daniel Sturridge is going to Chelsea

Sorry, I guess it was popular news but I was never into nu-metal or lostprophets for that matter.

In predator theory, these responses are sometimes compared to other prey responses within the natural world. Deer freeze in the headlamps. If you are a creature that has pretty good natural camouflage, facing a predator who works by sight, especially sight which is sensitive to movement, *freeze* is actually a successfully adaptive response to attack. Animals play dead. If what you are facing is not a predator looking to eat you, but a much bigger animal patrolling its territory or its defending its young, an inert, floppy prey which appears to be already dead, is no longer a threat, and will generally be left alone. *Flop* can be a successfully adaptive response to attack.

― cheeky boshing shamanic art-prankster (Branwell with an N)

the language of trauma response i'm familiar with includes freeze and also fawn. i agree that there needs to be a better understanding of trauma, trauma patterns, and trauma responses. there is a significant disconnect between the lived experiences of trauma and abuse survivors and the cultural norms around trauma and abuse.

idk for me the "flop" response made sense because i'd assumed the gratification of sex included the partner's responsiveness, so if I didn't respond, it wouldn't be gratifying for him ... nope!

actually it was just about _his_ dick

As a sexual abuse survivor, Andy would like to suggest: even though it's less common, dissociation is very much a real thing. When your mind dissociates, it is out of fear and protection. Although the dissociated individual probably won't appear to be enjoying the situation, they certainly won't be disagreeable — because, as Branwell so articulately and validly pointed out, there is almost always the unspoken possibility of physical harm if the abused resists. Or maybe even the abuser just doesn't care and has made the consequences very clear: do what I want and you'll be fine.

The Modest Mouse bloke has been a documented manipulative (arguably borderline narcissistic) person in just about every other aspect of their engagements, so Andy has to wonder just how high the probabilities are that their manipulations crossed over into sexual manipulations as well.

Alex Fitzpatrick, co-founder of Holy Roar:

https://www.brooklynvegan.com/holy-roar-records-founder-accused-of-rape-several-bands-respond/

So grateful to the incredibly brave victims and sources who spoke with me for this story. Morillo's predatory behaviour spanned nearly thirty years and ruined lives. It's disgraceful that it has taken this long for these stories to come to light. I know there are so many more. https://t.co/zlQjc8N78V

— Annabel Ross (@annabel_ross) September 15, 2020

that's a harrowing and appalling long read.

From that journalist’s twitter feed ... YIKES

https://m.facebook.com/793874029/posts/10158549434069030/?extid=0q95Wg5149URdpjB&d=n

also posted to the derrick may thread. ugh

"and because men" otm

this has been popping on on minneapolis twitter last two days
just a shameful decision by public radio

http://citypages.com/music/mpr-reporter-resigns-cites-stalled-investigation-into-allegedly-abusive-current-dj/572407841

https://www.startribune.com/djs-at-the-current-voice-support-for-mpr-reporter-investigating-colleague/572419822/

Well fuck this guy. And the harassment is just part of his awfulness.

https://www.metalsucks.net/2020/09/28/sexual-harassment-and-bullying-booking-titan-john-finbergs-accusers-speak-out/

Wow!

God, that kept going and getting worse. Absolutely horrifying that such a guy has been encouraged and allowed to prosper by the metal community. What a genuine monster.

Another account of Finberg's sexual harassment, same pattern

I read this today and I'm not surprised.

I was sexually harrassed by John Finberg back in 2018, during Helloween's Pumpkins United Tour in Mexico https://t.co/zUAcuz9Wid

— Tinúviel (@den_akari) September 29, 2020

Producer 5ive invited me to his studio a few years ago to get on nines’ album. This didn’t happen because he tried to rape me in the studio toilets !! He even had to cheek to message me months later saying “I should’ve fucked him cos he’s been signed now”. The industry for u🤮

— 19🧞‍♀️♍️ (@Sariaha9) November 9, 2020

Derrick May

https://djmag.com/longreads/multiple-women-report-sexual-assault-and-harassment-derrick-may

(trigger warning for the in-depth article, as per most of the articles in this thread)

Ah, the DM thread was on it already

https://pitchfork.com/news/octavian-accused-of-abuse-issues-denial/

shit, well fuck him. the noticeably selective denial doesn't do him any favours either

argument is the video of him saying what he did isn't literally a video of him doing it, so he didn't do it. so his defence is that he was lying then, but she's the liar? I hope too many people don't buy it

Diplo

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/ny-dj-diplo-woman-accuse-revenge-porn-20201117-dnx5prt5hjcjnfktv7eznivdly-story.html

Octavian got dropped by his label too

https://www.nme.com/news/music/octavian-denies-accusations-physical-verbal-psychological-abuse-made-by-former-partner-2815000

Also there was a temporary restraining order granted against Diplo so maybe there’s some evidence behind the claim?

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/temporary-restraining-order-granted-against-diplo-revenge-porn-case-n1248184

MIA rang the alarm a decade ago on him:

When I got signed by Interscope, he literally smashed my hotel room and broke all the furniture because he was so angry I got picked up by a major label and it was the corniest thing in the world that could possibly happen. And then Missy Elliott called me for the first time in 2005 to work with me on her record, and I’m sure we had a massive fight about that — the fact that I was talking to anyone who was, like, popular. I wish I enjoyed it because I had this person on my shoulder the whole time saying, “It’s shit, it’s shit, it’s shit. You shouldn’t be on the charts. You shouldn’t be in the magazines and you should not be going to interviews. You should not be doing collaborations with famous people. You should be an underground artist.”
So the whole two years I was with him, I just let him dictate. I basically had this man dictate to me how everything in America that I experienced was completely, like, irrelevant and it was nothing. So it was kind of a weird time for me. It was only afterwards, when I went into the second record and I went into it without him, I got to enjoy that by myself. But on the end of that I ran into another man, so the window of me actually being alone, single and a female and being empowered and enjoying what I created was very, very small.
Was Diplo’s mentality like, “You’re selling out”?
Oh, 100 percent. It’s only now when I look back at it in 2015, I can see that he was just jealous and he couldn’t wait to be Taylor Swift’s best friend and date Katy Perry. But at that time I believed him. I just felt like he was right, and he was something of a political, righteous person with some values. I didn’t realize it was just jealousy. That actually, the life that I had and the story that I told through my music and the connections I had with people in the music industry and the connections that I made in the streets of London or around the planet and me being the way I am and my personality — that is what made me make that record. It was really stupid for me to put all that hard work in and evolve as a human being for 25 years and then on the 27th year meet this guy and just give him the batch of controlling it. I think that’s what happens to women, you know: You fall in love, and shit happens.

oh yeah diplo was a known shithead, this particular aspect is new though

pretty repellent stuff about the Growlers, don’t know anything about past issues she mentions.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CDR1W0il3_U/

Ugh, that's horrible. I've never heard of the Growlers, but Starcrawler is great. I'm really sorry to hear about that.

Not just the music industry but ugh:

https://pitchfork.com/news/fka-twigs-sues-shia-labeouf-alleging-abuse-and-assault/

Massive new story about Burger Records

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2021-01-24/burger-records-musicians-sexual-misconduct

Oh man, not a name I expected recognizing in the accused list...

I'll be dumping off a box of records tomorrow.

The Tyde allegation one is the most surprising of that new batch, but it’s all heartbreaking.

As pointed out on Twitter though, that headline is a mess and a terrible framing of the story. It’s the abusive men that “took down” the label and framing it the way the headline does is bullshit victim blaming. The article itself is great, but oof that headline sucks.

I don't see it as victim blaming, unless you perceive that "burger records" stands for "fun and innocence and good times" -- I see it more like "dismantling the gross pedo-friendly patriarchy"

The writing is weird because they keep shifting terms and I'm not sure if they are meant to be read as synonymous or not ... like DIY/underground music scene does not just equal bands that are adjacent to Burger records and pop-punk / garage. It then dials back to "indie" in a few places, and it's like ... geez, I'm glad I don't live in SoCal or have much experience with the scene(s) down there, because otherwise I'd be annoyed all day by the semantic imprecision.

Xps. Yeah they're meaning it in the vain of "these survivors took down this organization of abusers", an empowering framing.

like if you were substitute "The Trump Administration" or "LAPD" for "Burger Records" -- how would that read to you?

I guess I can see both readings, but this below was one of the many tweets I saw that also expressed discomfort with it, which I think is an equally fair take:

When I came out against my abuser in the publishing world they ran articles about the woman who took down a publishing company. Uh, no, my abuser did that. I hate it when they frame us as “taking things down”.

— Hailey-Laine🐎🪐 (@henrytheeVth) January 24, 2021

I get it. Obviously she had some stake in the publishing world and the company, and thus she felt like she was being framed as a spoilsport or breaking a valuable thing, as opposed to someone from the outside (or someone with an existing negative opinion) perceiving it as heroic.

I think the key thing is that the journalism should center the victims if that is what the story promises to be about, and present them as people as opposed to instruments or plot devices (if the victims consent to their stories being told, that is)

Maybe it should have been something like, "The women who exposed the culture of abuse at the heart of L.A.'s music scene." Guess that's a little long...

Don’t get me wrong, Burger deserved to go away (at a bare minimum) and these women are fantastic for standing up against the shitty culture they enabled for so long. It’s an important piece and I’m glad it’s well reported and sourced.

And some of it is about "audience" -- like who is going to read the article. An LA Times article is going to have a different audience than if that headline was in an article published by Pitchfork or Vice where more of the audience would be likely to have been sympathetic to Burger Records prior to the call outs. LA Times is gonna be like, people's moms and dads who might call or email their kids who are under 50 and say, "do you know these people? Did you have any burger records?"

A company. Publishing. The nerve! That tweet otm

xp morris: there are a lot of "music scenes" in LA and this article is not that broad... that would be a really shitty headline, though it would get people's attention!

I guess the headline just reminded me too much of the Twitter fanboys who are always saying shit like, “this girl ruined the scene” or “she broke up the band”.

xp Well, as you noted above, the article does implicate the music scene beyond just that label ("Similar stories from dozens of women soon began pouring into Redd’s direct message box [...] many were about the local underground music scene in general."), and it makes the label sound like a central part of the scene. If that's not accurate, than maybe that aspect is not being portrayed accurately.

Like if this were just about a few bands and some hinky-dinky label, it would not be as "big" a story. The tendrils of this seem to reach in many directions; even the Smell is mentioned, though only as a place where one of the women first began going to shows (and the Smell scene doesn't seem to overlap, from what I can see, though it's been years since I've had any first-hand awareness of it).

it does implicate it, however, it doesn't really capture the breadth of all the varied DIY/underground spaces/communities presenting music in LA -- which is a very very very large city and inclusive of a bunch of suburbs. This being ILM, I am certain we are all aware that there are many genres of music that aren't pop-punk and rock, yeah?

and tbh, if this was in say, Denver or Iowa City, and not LA, it would not be as "big" a story

I guess it seems pretty clear to me what they mean by "underground/DIY music scene," so I'm not sure I follow your point about other genres.

uh, you are aware that underground/DIY music comprises a lot of different genres, right?

Yes, but I'm not sure how that's relevant or how you would like that point acknowledged in the article (which I didn't write), so we can drop it.

(if this is about my fake headline just saying "music scene," fine - I was just trying to come up with an alternate that, as you said, presents the women as people with agency and doesn't hinge on their victimhood, while giving a more accurate feel for the story.)

yeah it started being about your headline, and then it was about what seemed your ignorance of/unfamiliarity with DIY/underground music and how different communities use that term, and how some of them are like very "un-burger records-y"

though considering now it's been almost a year without shows in CA, it seems weird arguing about tbh ... sorry

honestly, I am also on edge because the G.S. criminal case against Almena got "resolved" yesterday and so the "DIY/underground music scene" has been a hot topic again

The article also says Burger "published recordings by nearly 1,200 bands during its 13 years in existence" so it really does stand that Burger was a nexus point of a bigger Los Angeles scene problem

no one could’ve seen a member from the Black Lips being a grade A creep.

feels like In the Red records would have skeletons in their closet as well since there’s overlap.

Yeah, some of the references to Burger almost feel shoehorned in (like mentioning that a band with an abuser happened to release a cassette on the label); but they make sense in the context of an article focusing on the broader scene. After reading it, you also wonder if the dissolution of the label named in the headline is supposed to have ended the problem.

https://pitchfork.com/news/evan-rachel-wood-alleges-marilyn-manson-abused-her/

i knew this was coming and it still sucks

I feel like he's been a known abuser forever but it didn't seem to stick to him

Hopefully it will stick now. It's horrific, even if only confirming an open secret.

Can't tell if I expected this or already knew about it through the press pre-metoo. Depressing either way.

I swear I though this was all out there already, just not presented as fully maybe? Either way, even if nothing is "new" in that article, it should keep being brought up until there are some actual consequences.

evan rachel wood spoke about this behavior a few years ago without directly naming manson. on some level we all knew

the other ppl coming forward with stories are def new to me

I mean, I look to the Ryan Adams thing. While I still don't think he's had the full reckoning he deserves, it was very refreshing to see that even when he tried to come back with a new album, it was met with complete silence from almost every major publication. I feel like that's why it is important to keep these stories out in the public eye, eventually it will hit a critical mass.

I knew it was bad but I didn't know there was grooming involved, fucking yikes

I remember reading some Rolling Stone profile of him back in ... 2015? Anyway, it was packed with enough self-consciously shocking stuff that it came off pretty enabling. Like, lol, that Manson, what a weirdo rock star, with his canister of Zyklon B, his creepily specific sexual demands and declaration that "anything can be crotchless if you carry a knife." He's so subversive, maaaan, just hiding in plain sight.

xp - she was technically an adult

Watching a ton of people in fandoms adjacent to ones I inhabit, wrestling with this (and as Jude also pointed out on Twitter, understanding that the reckoning needs to deal with Reznor's role in all this).

https://gen.medium.com/marilyn-manson-told-us-who-he-was-3a15e0fc27d

I have a ton more thoughts, but this isn't the place for them.

Kind of amazing that “Party Down” skewered his whole “dweeb edgelord as cover for sexual predation” vibe so accurately in plain view.

Another Manson victim comes forward.

https://www.rollingstone.com/music/music-news/game-of-thrones-esme-bianco-marilyn-manson-1126700/

(^this is one ppl actually do give a f*ck about, and it's being discussed at Marilyn Manson: Classic or Dud?)

A band called McCafferty, who have only been mentioned once on ilxor on a rolling emo thread, has an abusive frontman. Many of the original members have just left the band. The google doc below contains many screenshots of social media posts and text chains. I get the feeling that this band is not big enough that the abuse will ever get any actual media attention.

https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1qvPOwZI2BStB7Rjh0IR9JvOnGgZ2QgZbfKb_AhWiA7I/mobilebasic

they should probably just preemptively arrest all emo frontmen

I was like "didn't we do this already" then realized I was thinking of the smith street band so you might be onto something

All this Burger Records stuff came out like mid-2020— but I guess I am just an aging punk with connections to Oakland, so I've known about it for a long time. (Also, I mean, Burger Records has always kind of sucked? Their whole thing is like one big shtick)

<3 table!

Yeah Burger Records and all related bands have always sucked & rubbed me the wrong way, though that was always for aesthetic reasons I can't say I was particularly surprised when victims where coming forward with tales of abuse.

White people cosplaying as 60s-era garage pop musicians was cute for a few years, 2009-2010 or so. That it went on for another decade is truly bizarre and pathetic to me— my empathy and solidarity, as ever, with the survivors, but the whole thing has been creepy and weird since its nascent stages.

This is grim

https://pitchfork.com/news/lawyer-seeks-criminal-investigation-of-ti-and-tiny-who-are-accused-of-sexual-abuse-and-assault/

yeah, i was deeply sad to see that

didn't TI once say he took his teenage daughter to the doctor regularly to check if she was still a virgin? sadly not surprising at all

yeah that was him, he's said a lot of suspect shit over the years

jeeesus

https://www.thedailybeast.com/nicki-minaj-and-husband-kenneth-pettys-campaign-to-silence-his-sexual-assault-victim

Yesterday the ex-wife of the musician Michael “Rhye” Milosh posted several Instagram posts detailing allegations against him. She said that he groomed her from the age of 16, described a previous incident that he was part of that she described as rape, and was physically violent. pic.twitter.com/X6X0P3v3V1

— Benjamin Goggin (@BenjaminGoggin) March 14, 2021

(Rhye's own thread revived but figured here too as an accounting.)

Oy fuck

I really do not like how that CoS article introduces the phrase “anal play,” which is never said in any of the lengthy Instagram posts

James Levine died today

sounds like 3 women have talked about harassment/assault by Har Mar Superstar, seen a screen grab of one, someone I know on Twitter (who would know) says 2 others...still only in private Facebook posts right now but I wouldn't say that I'm shocked.

I follow him on Twitter and he's talked about getting sober in recent memory. Wonder if that had something to do with it.

sorry, that's obviously just speculation. as someone who has struggled with substances myself, I feel kinda shitty about posting that.

Between Har Mar and Rhye, it really seems like there is some kind of almost pathological thread in between being a white dork who makes R&B

the whole schtick especially early was way more edgy, almost assaultive. i think i saw one of his first shows by chance, he was opening for Trans Am and Arcwelder (those were the type of shows he was getting because in those days he was "the guy from Calvin Krime"), but yeah he came out in his underwear and only a boombox then proceeded to walk around the audience (given that it was Trans Am there may have not been any women there) and grinding on dudes, one kid almost punched him and pushed him away

but the vibe was way more andy kaufman than loveable R&B scamp

yeah, I thought of Har Mar as less of white dork who makes R&B and more like ... a hipster

he's kind of the uber minneapolis hipster, has connections throughout everything, from his noise rock/punk/amphetamine reptile days to indie rock when he was sean na na, to connections to hipster R&B, local indie hip hop with har mar to neo-soul type respectable NPR new har mar stuff

I literally don't think I've ever heard him aside from his guest spot on the first neon neon album, but yeah he's been weirdly omnipresent

xp - does he have a dog?!!!!

All that plus he served as a random unexpected Minnesota connection to the MST3K revival (he's the vocalist/'leader' of the skeleton band, sings most of the theme song).

Between Har Mar and Rhye, it really seems like there is some kind of almost pathological thread in between being a white dork who makes R&B

― bruce spr!ngisH3r3 (Whiney G. Weingarten), Wednesday, 17 March 2021 17:10 (forty-three minutes ago) link

How To Dress Well better watch his (their?) back

I def remember being skeeved out by those Rhye album covers + interviews

I'm sad about Rhye tbh, i have been a fan of his work for years and that series of instaposts are just painfully detailed and ugly.

I know Har Mar's brother-in-law, I wonder if he's heard about this yet

it's been percolating on Twitter but not really outside of a small bubble, apparently his fiance is going in people's dms to do damage control

I don't know if it could really be reported properly because everything substantial is on the victims' private Facebook posts

How it started How it's going pic.twitter.com/3OrLhVeBxu

— jgarcia (@jasoncomix) March 17, 2021

I def remember being skeeved out by those Rhye album covers + interviews

― change display name (Jordan), Wednesday, March 17, 2021 11:02 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

I'm sad about Rhye tbh, i have been a fan of his work for years and that series of instaposts are just painfully detailed and ugly.

― G.A.G.S. (Gophers Against Getting Stuffed) (forksclovetofu), Wednesday, March 17, 2021 11:04 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

both of these otm

Time for Britt Daniels to dig the White Stripes.

??

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8nF8L5Fgzc

I still don't understand what that means.

I don't dig the stripes but I'll go for har mar

lol I'm slow

bloke from She Wants Revenge and Crazy Town (and DJ for Obama) and a producer pal ran a goth club in Hollywood, hit on every employee, and told patrons they were mistaken if they reported dancefloor harassment from fame-os.

https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2021-03-21/cloak-and-dagger-goth-nightclub-closed-sexual-misconduct-claims

Fucking Thomas Middleditch.

Har Mar has lawyered up and has sent cease and desist notices to at least one victim

Bandmate doing damage control

Another day, another reminder that @HarMarSuperstar (who has recently UNblocked me, welcome back Sean) is accused of assaulting multiple women in Minneapolis. His bandmates have said there will be a statement from him soon. They also believe Har Mar and Laura over survivors. pic.twitter.com/IYL0cOdoRQ

— jgarcia (@jasoncomix) March 20, 2021

Middleditch and his fucking Silicon Valley idiot bros were called out for creating a toxic environment some time ago. This doesn’t surprise me at all.

method acting must be stopped

"Sean has a lot to apologize for" does not seem a promising start from a person ostensibly defending Har Mar.

Middleditch def. seems like he's into a lot of wild sex stuff,

"Sean has a lot to apologize for" does not seem a promising start from a person ostensibly defending Har Mar.

It also seems potentially shitty to publicly share a private text from (and name) someone who sounds like they absolutely will not defend Har Mar publicly, and is prepared to denounce him once he hears the other side of / some more accusations, and is responding to someone going 'ayo bro looks like pitchforks are out for anyone who's ever "sexualised a chick",' and specifically asked for this not to be shared while he waits to hear from / speak to more people. He's not typing "yah shit's fucked bro, you can't even honk a titty anymore," he's saying "out of respect for [HMSS's] fiancee as a survivor and my friend I am standing by her privately for now, with multiple caveats."

"I've texted with a bandmate of Har Mar's who doesn't want to say anything on the record but is choosing to believe [Sean and fiancee], which I think is pissweak" would be more than fair as a way of expressing disdain.

#1 it wasn't a text they are just DMing random people on social media

#2 one of the other things is a forcing a woman to give him oral sex

and that's not the last of it

also they are trying to focus on one woman, the least worse of the allegations, they've threatened her with lawyers as mr. open minded refers to and are hoping they can paint her as crazy and threaten the others with cease and desist

If bandmate dude does know all that and is actively covering up / doing damage control, I figure it'll come out soon enough and he can be appropriately publicly shamed / these DMs revealed then. If he really is holding off on public comment until he finds out more (since it sounds like he's kinda prepared for another dozen shoes to drop), it's possible that him coming out against Har Mar in the future will have less weight if arseholes can act like he's been "wokescolded" into changing his position.

On the other hand, the woman in the Middleditch dancefloor incident has dropped (some of?) his full apology DMs.

you don't get it

ums otm, sic please take a big step backwards right now

bummed about the Har Mar thing, I legitimately like him but I'm not surprised

not much of a defense obv but he's struggled pretty hard with alcohol, both times I saw him in 2009 he was a huge mess. if these allegations are recent I'd be pretty shocked

I'll put it this way, there are tons of stories about him out there. not so much about sexual assault but about him getting his ass kicked. in retrospect this may have been because he was trying to sexually assault someone

Middleditch and his fucking Silicon Valley idiot bros were called out for creating a toxic environment some time ago. This doesn’t surprise me at all.

― beamish13, Sunday, March 21, 2021 3:52 PM (six hours ago)

all of them, or just him and the guy that got kicked off the show for being the king of douchebros?

Alice Wetterlund called out "pretty much everyone who had any power on that (almost all male) set, including the male cast members" for being complicit in Miller's behaviour. idk if there's anything beyond that about Nanjiani, Starr or Woods specifically creating a toxic environment.

(Although (Between scenes, the group can usually be found playing Xbox in a grungy lounge, which they've facetiously dubbed "the bone zone.")

Isn't Xbone what dorks call the Xbox?

Tried to warn you all about Middleditch but noooooo not everyone’s favorite tinyman who looks like he lives in a clock!

— Alice Wetterlund (@alicewetterlund) March 21, 2021

Wetterlund in other replies clarifying that her experience was of being singled out & treated with cruelty, citing Kumail as pretty much the worst person she’s ever worked with, and excluding Jimmy O. Yang from all this.

what a relief! Hot Dog!

the middleditch interview where he just volunteered that he sprung an open marriage on his wife directly after they got married, and also shit on social media (that i can't find currently) about how he loves getting in women's DMs on insta were red flags, id imagine there may be more to come about him

the middleditch interview where he just volunteered that he sprung an open marriage on his wife directly after they got married

"...until forever do you part?" "You mean like when I leave the house? Yeah sure." "Hey wait."

I know it’s OT but how “goth” is this club if Diplo DJs, improv nerds go there and it’s in the back of a bar called Pig and Whistle?

I was just telling Maura that the idea of an LA goth club trying to recreate the 45 Grave era sounds pretty cool but it ultimately sounds like it’s a bunch of Dave Navarro shit

why is "goth" a proper noun in the LA times style guide...

https://i.redd.it/p2ckdffvh4351.jpg

https://www.austinchronicle.com/binary/36d2/Nathan.jpg

I'm still back on the African-American member who wanted the dudes who were trying to emulate Christian Death to support Black Lives Matter

I know it’s OT but how “goth” is this club if Diplo DJs, improv nerds go there and it’s in the back of a bar called Pig and Whistle?

You should be asking yourself more about why there's an 'Old Hollywood' 'English pub' in LA, and then remember it's LA and thus of course that would exist and of course there'd also be a goth club there because there could just as easily be something else entirely there too, and probably is.

Honestly I'm just more surprised it wasn't at the Cat & Fiddle instead, aka Morrissey's long-standing haunt.

The Cat & Fiddle didn't exist at the time, tbf.

but it ultimately sounds like it’s a bunch of Dave Navarro shit

"You are all examples of the Goth Mas Mentality"

xpost True enough!

ultimately sounds like it’s a bunch of Dave Navarro shit

everything in la can basically be divided between that which is dave navarro shit (roughly 83 percent of the city), that which is steve aoki shit (16 percent) and in-n-out franchises (1 percent).

Meantime

We support victims of all sexual and emotional abuse. We will no longer be working with Har Mar Superstar in the future. We will dismantle any promotion of his new record on our social media platforms and strive to be part of a better future for our music community.

— Mid City Studio (@MidCityStudioMN) March 22, 2021

why is "goth" a proper noun in the LA times style guide...

― J0rdan S., Monday, March 22, 2021 2:50 PM (fifty-two minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

perhaps this was a club dedicated to the germanic tribe that raided the roman empire in the 4th century?

The Har Mar stuff is amazing.

“We are shocked to learn the guy who does the underpants R&B minstrel show is problematic”

It does seem like Midnite Vultures and its ilk (from cis men, anyway) is the opposite of our times in every way.

I mean, people *were* calling out Midnite Vultures and Har Mar back in the day iirc but yeah, that shit would definitely not fly today

I think Har Mar got a pass because so many people assumed it was just a character. wasn't his breakthrough on Jimmy Kimmel or something?

oh frogbspaws

everything in la can basically be divided between that which is dave navarro shit (roughly 83 percent of the city), that which is steve aoki shit (16 percent) and in-n-out franchises (1 percent).

someone get a mic on Geddy Lee

lol steve aoki's pizza restaurant

Wait, what's wrong with Midnite Vultures aside from being mediocre Prince cosplay?

check yr facts, cuz!

i hang my head in fact checking shame. i should never have tried franchising myself.

Just saying the “tweak my nipple” come-ons are more off-putting than turn-on-ing, even in a “lol but I don’t really have a libido” situation.

this post aged well. #harmarsuperstar pic.twitter.com/3fUP8VVlWB

— danae o’rourke (@danaeorourke) March 21, 2021

I'm not recommending it, but Har Mar's previous incarnation was Sean Na Na, the album My Majesty was incredibly toxic and misogynistic and ugly, and some of it is real striking in retrospect (tw)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vt79gRy2nzM

always hated that band and him and everyone who liked them back in the day. I've liked my share of people who turned out to be shitty but at least I don't have this skeleton in my music collection.

Har Mar was just on the Best Show talking about working as a mail man during lockdown.

oh frogbspaws

― bruce spr!ngisH3r3 (Whiney G. Weingarten), Monday, March 22, 2021 5:03 PM

was that 'weak'

Did we not determine that sic misunderstood my “weak”

no, we determined that your 'weak' was poor

'sorry if you thought it was glib, i was just using jargon'

write better

I thought sic was mad because I wasn’t centering victims in a tweet about a director I like, not the reality that sic was mad because sic thought I was calling the victims arguments weak

I thought you seemed to be saying it was "weak" of film producers & distributors SpectreVision to withdraw funding for his next two films and donate future proceeds from their existing collaboration to domestic violence charities. This surprised me, so I asked what you meant.

You clarified that you think it "sucks" that the violent abuser was "cancelled" and the business relationship is "dunzo," regardless of the accounts of his victims.

No, I meant it sucks that the director’s career is dunzo, not his business relationship with some blu-ray company.

“It’s very good this creep got cancelled” and “It sucks that this guy can’t make anymore movies because I liked them” are not mutually exclusive thoughts. Though I DO (and did) admit that putting the latter in front of the former can be perceived as “glib”

SpectreVision produced and theatrically distributed Color Out Of Space, his only feature since 1992, and were planning to make two more Lovecraft adaps w/ him. They are the entirety of his current career.

Dogg, please believe me when I say I wasn’t even getting in the weeds of his specific relationships with any company or business

dogg, you should hack on your sensitivity a bit

I apologized for being glib and I meant it. I’m sorry!

I’m just responding to accusations about my intentions

Thomas Middleditch pressured a girlfriend into getting breast implants, and then asked for her to pay him back for them when they broke up. Dude's been a known creep for years.

I don't think anyone is at all shocked by Richard Middledouche being called out

the nerdy dude from silicon valley huh

Oh my god that breast implant story

She's deleted the post, but my recollection is that the woman had to remove the implants years after they broke up, due to them being (badly done? too large? affecting her chest muscles?). I don't recall when or whether him asking to be paid back came into it, but she put the implants on display at the Museum Of Broken Relationships in Hollywood.

Midnite Vultures is good

shhhhh

No, I meant it sucks that the director’s career is dunzo, not his business relationship with some blu-ray company.

Dogg, please believe me when I say I wasn’t even getting in the weeds of his specific relationships with any company or business

I haven’t read the allegations yet

(btw I still don't follow this at all. how is his career even "dunzo" in any way, let alone it being "weaksauce" that it's dunzo, in that context?)

I don't know why we are going round and round with this, nor what you're trying to do here but

1. I was assuming he was heretofore "cancelled" i.e., persona non grata in the industry, i.e. basically finished and unable to make movies anymore at least in the way that we know them, i.e., having a career that is over at least in the way that we know them a.k.a. done a.k.a. dunzo. Yes, I'm fully aware that this something that is more common with smaller/niche figures than bigger people like Mel Gibson or whatever. Yes, I'm fully aware that, in fact, may not be end up to be true because, in many, many cases, like Aziz or Morgan Wallen, your career really only gets a timeout or a speedbump, and I was rushing to assume that Stanley was "cancelled" in the traditional sense. I did not -- and still have not -- read the actual allegations, but I assume they are legit and horrible.

2. I have established that “It is very good this creep got cancelled” and “It sucks that this guy can’t make anymore movies because I liked them” are not mutually exclusive thoughts. Yes, putting the former in front of the latter is glib, especially on a board where people can be sensitive to such matters. I have admitted that and have apologized twice now. The first thought (“It is very good this creep got cancelled”) should be assumed and should go without saying. The second thought (It sucks that this guy can’t make anymore movies because I liked them”) was what I posted. "Weak" in that scenario is synonomous with "this sucks" which is something that poster Austin has done in this very thread ("unrelated, but over the last week there have also been allegations thrown at london singer songwriter cosmo pyke which sucks because i genuinely like his music."), which went without such a thorough examination.

maybe because i'm not an insufferable blowhard?

(this post is 100% in jest, just fyi. i just can't resist a dogpile on you, chris. let's try to stay focused tho.)

haha, appreciated

"Midnite Vultures is good"

I don't know how that album got into this discourse but it was certainly the first Beck album I hated.

don't know how that album got into this discourse

"underpants R&B minstrel show"

Is Midnite Vultures cancelled

Is Midnite Vultures cancelled too??? Man, I hated Midnite Vultures, then grew to like it, and now there's something worse about it?

beck is too boring to cancel

The only good thing about Midnite Vultures is the cover art.

https://www.discogs.com/Various-Shock-City-Shockers/master/457451

https://img.discogs.com/p8hkP9K9W_PrVZNvQcJOduSnhaQ=/fit-in/488x425/filters:strip_icc():format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(90)/discogs-images/R-2163996-1386138499-9655.jpeg.jpg

There is a book called Ongaloo that all those paintings were culled from:

https://www.google.com/search?q=ongaloo&tbm=isch

are the boredoms cancelled

Can we not conflate artistic crimes with actual ones in this thread? Har Mar isn't getting canceled for making r&b.

Midnite Vultures is fun shit, like it was welded together from a stack of '70s records that normally weren't played together (Sly & the Family Stone, Kraftwerk, etc.) "Sexx Laws," "Get Real Plaid," "Beautiful Way" (psychedelic folk-blues)...I think Beck openly expressed his reservations about singing "Debra" when he toured in 2002, like it was some embarrassing track he cut in his "youth" (IIRC it was kicking around before Odelay). Coming from a guy who's now singing songs from Hank Williams and Big Star's 3rd, it would be insipid, but I eventually came around to the idea that it's a snapshot of juvenile idiocy and enjoy it as a novelty.

the most embarrassing track on midnite vultures is "hollywood freaks"

mixed business or whatever is so fucking horrible, he should be shot because of that, imo

this is such a weird conversation to be having in this thread

agreed

take it here
midnite vultures

Not to mention fucking weird to say a musician should be "shot" for recording a song, especially given current events.

beck sucks you nerds

take it to the beck thread ffs

Not to mention fucking weird to say a musician should be "shot" for recording a song

period

#onethread

take it to the scientology thread!

chaki!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Further reconfirmation on this person

https://pitchfork.com/news/sun-kil-moon-mark-kozelek-accused-of-sexual-misconduct-by-seven-more-women/amp/

tip of the iceberg, surprised it took this long for another 7.

I can't tell whether it's his straight white male overconfidence, or knowing he's absolutely fucked, to think it was a good move to just recycled his previous denial.

Have you considered that he might be dumb?

"who says yes to that?" the most otm thing in there, what a deeply repulsive individual he is

xpost - Well, yeah.

tip of the iceberg, surprised it took this long for another 7.

I know this is intended to express contempt for the abuser, but it might help to think in terms of how difficult it can be to speak out about abuse and assault on a personal level, and the fact that these seem to be women who have specifically sought Zimmerman as a trustworthy ear, and that she has a) diligently reported out the incidents as far as possible, and b) assessed that it would have greater impact to go to print with the weight of multiple accusations at once, not dripfeeding one by one.

Not to mention fucking weird to say a musician should be "shot" for recording a song, especially given current events.

You are going to seriously double down on that? Christ this board is a mess.

I feel like I've said this before but -- there is SO MUCH of the talk about this stuff especially among non-young people where there's a palpable anxiety among men about "o no if I tell someone I liked their dress am I going to jail" and when you read the actual accounts it is always, every single time...... NOT THAT

Yeah it's like... there is a non-trivial, obvious difference between "Oh, I like your dress" and "Oh, I like your dress; here's my penis" and if you can't comprehend that difference, then yes you should be locked up

If you're pining for the days when you used to be able to spank women in the office, I have a lovely subpoena here waiting for you, is how I break it down to an extent.

that undeniable sensation that someone is testing one's boundaries to see how far they can push it is one of the most potent warning bells/alarms i can think of. if nothing else these accounts give examples of what to beware of while interacting with potential predators.

xp DJP -- i think it would depend on whether the gift penis is attached to the man's body or in a Russell Stover heart shaped box, completely severed. ... like that would determine where the dude would be locked up

also la lechera otm!

hahaha valid

undeniable sensation that someone is testing one's boundaries

It’s especially depressing that he’s so artless and repetitive about it. “Come to my hotel room, I won’t try to fuck you.” Promptly takes open-door shower, comes out in underwear and asks for sex. When rebuffed, either whines about ageism or insists that fandom entitles him to their bodies.

In each case, he’s made a connection with them through art, whether it be something they wrote, or the way they sing, or what they see in his lyrics. But he doesn’t even try to flirt or seduce or play on the connection, just runs the same program of lie -> hotel room -> unwanted nudity -> complain until they’re worn down. Melt him down for scrap.

Zimmerman ending the piece with Ella’s relief at finding out that her attempts to protect other strangers had paid off in one single instance (due to his grim predictability) was a satisfying capper, but the implied corollary is heartbreaking.

"You have to tell me why you won’t fuck me. You’ve seen my movies"

yeah i mean i guess what i was trying to say is that abuse in the culture industry is like a reflection of the fact that the culture industry abuses people for product. it sees people as objects for consumption so treating people as sexual objects is in line with that, especially for people who are really invested in that model. and more predatory kinds of behaviors are like an enhanced version of that. not trying to discount the elements of patriarchy that play into this but imo it's not just men behaving like pigs, it's a larger complex of alienation that brings in capitalism and sometimes weird quasi-religious cultism (after all music is pretty magical/spiritual).

― carin' (map), Friday, July 10, 2020 1:33 PM (eight months ago) bookmarkflaglink

Abuse happens in all industries ime, it's just no one cares if the local social worker is outed as a sexually abusive asshole. Whereas when it's a celebrity, it feeds the clicks the media industry are relying on for revenues.

eh, nah, the entertainment industry is definitely worse than the average industry

and when social workers are outed as sexual abusers in their workplace it does make the media

https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/lxbCYzSxEyKaaIfmQ9OxZIJ00j0=/0x0:2167x2206/920x0/filters:focal(0x0:2167x2206):format(webp):no_upscale()/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/9728371/111417_SexualHarassment_column_fig_2_1040px.png

(xp OMG!)

I did a quick web search and found this: https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/women/news/2017/11/20/443139/not-just-rich-famous/O

(VHS’s chart is from that page)

Those numbers aren't the absolute proof the entertainment industry is better or worse, which we are likely to never have, and very much besides the point, but considering how abuse is pervasive in society and the entertainment industry is just a small part of the economy, trying to come to conclusions about how sexual abuse operate based on the entertainment industry's experiences is not likely to come up with very serviceable solutions.

I don't think it's a coincidence the #metoo movement truly gained traction when the victims were beloved celebrities.

it also doesn't really contradict what im saying? haha

the worst industries are definitely the ones with low-paid occupations and a workforce that skews female and racialized and i concede that all the focus on the entertainment industry (and things like university campuses) and the sort of victims that "matter' because of their social status is a little counterproductive/wrong

You said it was “worse than the average industry” though

and i stand by that

That chart doesn't account for the size of each industry, so it's hard to say.

It is hard to say (as VHS also commented), but I don’t see any reason to assume that’s the case. When Joe Schmo from Allied Chemical gets a harassment claim against him, it doesn’t make the news like it goes with a famous actor or director.

"it's just no one cares if the local social worker is outed as a sexually abusive asshole"

absolute bollox

thanks for that chart, VHS and morris.

lol!

i have never worked in any food service job without witnessing some form of sexual harrassment

absolute bollox

― calzino, Thursday, March 25, 2021 6:53 PM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

The majority of sexual abusers are anonymous and receive no media coverage.

Duuuuuuhhhhhhhhhh
There’s nothing special about dumbass Mark Kozelek

xp

thank god the percentage of media coverage something gets isn't the only fucking metric that counts for anything.

I was making a point about the entertainment industry and how the coverage might distort some points of view, please leave me alone if you aren’t to engage in good faith and in the spirit of discussion.

I am engaging in good faith you risible prick

Har Mar issues statement

https://m.startribune.com/minneapolis-singer-of-har-mar-superstar-fame-offers-deep-apology-for-misconduct/600038691/

Definitely ran it through lawyers

I am engaging in good faith you risible prick

― calzino, Thursday, March 25, 2021 8:57 PM (four minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

Please don't interact with my posts again. I don't come here for bullying and insults and policing tone. I have no need of this.

quite happily, you could basic basic software on a ZX81 more unpredictable than you.

I don't go on ILX to listen to clowns quoting Bill and Melinda gates think tanks, it will be easy.

Thanks for the chart VHS but I just don't believe mining is the paradise for women the data suggests

It doesn't say it is, if anything, chart might suggest that it is almost impossible for a women to file a sexual harassment charges.

so Har Mar's statement is

1) It's really brave of these women to come forward
2) I take this very seriously
3) I was really fucked up for a long period of time, abused drugs and alcohol and did a lot of things I regret
4) Regardless, these women are liars

Yep. Not going over well.