marketing of masculinity

http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk34/feministing/Picture1-15.png

fucking hell

what clothing company is that for?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFj3FJlBT8Q

that commercial : /

5 seconds after it ends a bunch of russian mob dudes come in blazing

looool

That ad makes me want to cut off my own dick.

http://www.us.dockers.com/season/landing.aspx

THERE WAS A TIME WHEN

* Men
* Women
* Fit Guide
* Man-ifesto

dos equis most interesting man commercials to thread

xp btw Hoot thinking that thought makes you cRaZy

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh thank you for bringing this to my attention

dos equis ads are at least pretty tongue-in-cheek

http://contexts.org/socimages/tag/gender-masculinity/

Holding Doors Open For Women

being a man is about being a good human being imo

maybe dockers will help u

this makes me think of some of the things Susan Faludi talks about in her book Stiffed, which is like ten years old now, about how men were the next great unexploited fashion/beauty market.

Aren't Dockers for middle-aged fat-asses?

idk but the point is to feel cool when you buy them

Aren't Dockers for middle-aged fat-asses?

― uninspired girls rejoice!!! (Hoot Smalley), Tuesday, December 8, 2009 7:22 PM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

u are the target audience

"actually -- little known historical fact that, when men were men, prior to disco, khakis were only worny by the ruggedest of bros"

Virtually the same style:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fl6ZAXytvjY

this is the point at which everybody who made "ironic" lol sexism joaks in the 90s & 00s now has to pay for it by gouging their eyes out and dancing on them

ow my eyes

thank god i was an adolescent and actually sexist, whew

that khakis ad is so preposterous i cannot imagine taking it srsly on any level

the real question it poses--when will derisive "latte" comments become passe?

when will it be ok for men to eat salad again? how do you guys live on these all steak diets

just had my 17th heart attack tbh

i had a (bison) steak AND a salad for dinner tonight i will have you know

so you are like 50% man now

killed a man, too

This does remind me of a thread i wanted to start, about how the only time I ever use the phrase "men" or "women" seems to involve marketing pitches for Boomers, or gay bars. It's like "Magazine for Men" or "Bars for Men" I automatically equate to "gay-targeted". I mean, almost all of the males I ever encountered above the age of 18 fall into the category of "dudes," "guys", "fellas", "bros", or "homies".

I worked with a guy who talked about how they'd go on a "men's retreat" every year, which was pretty much just a chance to head out to the Oregon deserts and bro down with buddies with dune buggies.

stole his salad

wait so is driving dune buggies in the OR desert w/yr "bros" a gay thing????

8[

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bQlSr9YjLc

here's to young white dudes and maybe firefighters can earn their way in maybe

here's to assholes

lol what is that music?

gbx, what kind of fork did you eat with?

if its plastic you're down to 45% man

being a man is about being a good human being imo

Psshaww I bet you enjoy eating salads

... with a PLASTIC FORK no doubt!

the real question it poses--when will derisive "latte" comments become passe?

― call all destroyer, Tuesday, December 8, 2009 6:04 PM (16 minutes ago) Bookmark

i guess when derisive salad and disco comments become passe. which if judging by the durability of hairy lesbian comments = never.

ha lol everyone already made that joke i see

xp

wait so is driving dune buggies in the OR desert w/yr "bros" a gay thing????

No, it's a perfectly acceptable bros thing.

that ad at the top is a take-you-aside-and-be-serious version of a bad standup routine

Maybe you're not supposed to use utensils at all.

this IS desert season btw, no better time to throw a few cases of natty ice in the F-150, hook up the dirtbikes and roll out to glamis or gordon's well and fuckin BRO. DOWN. BRODER.

that sounds awesome but i guess i'm not invited

bro if you're heading out pick up some burreets or a double-double for the noshage

It's not the activity I laughed at, it's the description of it as their "Man's Retreat"

i had a (bison) steak AND a salad for dinner tonight i will have you know

― being being kiss-ass fake nice (gbx), Tuesday, December 8, 2009 8:08 PM (20 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

you will pay for your crimes against bison btw

yeah i mean ultimately "males" are going to want to get together every so often and do dumb shit. there will probably never be a good name for this.

lol i almost made a "u ate ilx user m bison joke!" but too meta. glad he is here tho

f-you dockers, I'm never wearing pants again

tbf probably the worst dudes are ppl that wear kilts just like, on the street in the city or whatever

yeah i mean ultimately "males" are going to want to get together every so often and do dumb shit. there will probably never be a good name for this.

politics?

apparently suits and beards are the new masculinity

new punchline:

ILM?

lulz yeah

not really bothered by kilts, girls are allowed to walk around in skirts so y not
probably wouldn't be friends with a kilter though

just don't wear the suit while walking to work

probably wouldn't be friends with a kilter though

right, exactly

http://www.goodmenbook.org/thebook.php

this thing is getting a lot of play atm and from an interview i heard w/ the filmmaker/compiler of stories it promises not to dovetail with most of the reductive trad bs above even though the trailer makes it seem like yes it will

i mean for a lot of western men a large part of 'what is it to be a man?' is going to be a reaction to the image/'era' these ads are advancing but even within that orbit there's more interesting questions than whether to wear brut or aramis, how to make a proper toast etc

I think at times the "be a MAN" schtick is kind of useful as a stand-in for "be an ADULT," -- something that's kind of useful in an era of prolonged childhood. I mean it's really fucking lame when it gets used as an excuse for retrograde attitudes or GQ-type marketing bullshit - where being a man is equated to being some kind of all around great guy with a perfect smile and a cool haircut.

But still, sometimes I find it helpful to say to myself "Be a man. Stop whining and pick yourself up," etc. even if that has hints of retrograde gender attitudes.

sorry, that was a little redundant

and then u put on yr dockers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p55Hr8nIH_c

REAL MEN LOVE JESUS

i am so completely blown away by this advertisement that i'm sort of speechless. we've got sexism, heterosexism, classism, reproductive futurism...

thank god i don't buy magazines and don't watch television. think i'd shoot myself.

Also Dockers mostly just make me think of soft-bellied midwestern IT guys.

i also think the "be a man" thing can have value, cuz i think of myself as a man, as a male being. it's part of my identity, and not just physiologically. by that i mean it helps constitute my sense of self. and "to be a man", in my mind, is behave and think in a responsible, compassionate, thoughtful and grown-up manner. in other words, as a positive member of the group i see myself as belonging to. in thinking this way, i don't think i'm in any way associating or aligning myself with retrograde/sexist/paternalist attitudes.

further, though i'm not a parent, i think "be a man" attaches itself to that idea-set. to be a man in this sense is to be a fit parent, partner and member of society. and i think that can be a good thing.

ads are still totally revolting

to me these ads are just funny

i mean, i guess offensive in some obvious ways as well, but they're so transparent

i'm not revolted by the sexism & vague homophobia, i'm revolted by the dumb dumb ass

cuz yeah, it's more like mock sexism anyway

but the DUMB DUMB ASS

it's slightly less offensive because it's so obviously aimed at guys that are actually pretty insecure, enough so in fact that they will buy a certain brand of khakis to help themselves feel secure in their manhood I guess

also easier to swallow the stupidity of it because of everyone's general reaction here, if yall had responded to this ad by saying "HELL YEAH I'M SICK OF THIS SALAD EATING QUEERS" then I would have been more put off / bewildered / saddened

thank god i don't buy magazines and don't watch television. think i'd shoot myself.

― And now my dick is where? Oh, this is too rich (the table is the table), Tuesday, December 8, 2009 9:47 PM Bookmark

http://blogs.graphicdesignforum.com/mlenhart/archives/images/pat_on_the_back_1.jpg

That ad makes me want to cut off my own dick.

So anyway, these discos where men were stripped of their khakis sound pretty fun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhZyz0z2tHs

i'm all for this sort of thing, really ^^^^^^

http://i45.tinypic.com/s2f7r7.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pNc5ILnrFTI/SQS4_ZJbcnI/AAAAAAAAA3Q/WIuyp4pCPNI/s1600-h/MitchumDeodorant.bmp

http://i45.tinypic.com/34h77fa.jpg

I...what?

You don't order it tall, venti, or mocha, like your old lady does.

haha i love that starbucks seems to be the #1 foil in these ads

the #1 threat to american masculinity... is coffee from seattle

o i see you have a 'tall' coffee there... *derisive snort*

surely ordering a small coffee would make you a small-bladdered commie pinko anyway though

in my america coffee is weak, feminine and european

in my america, when you want to wake up, you shoot someone, and if no ones around, you shoot yourself

btw the best part of the dockers ad is the "shop women" punchline

You don't order it tall, venti, or mocha, like your old lady does a homo.

As if Italian words for coffee aren't masculine.

idk but the point is to feel cool when you buy them

The marketing idea behind Dockers, which made Levi's hundreds of millions of dollars and is probably responsible for the casual-izing of American offices, wasn't about cool or sexy; it was about someone saying "nice pants" and letting your head be full of decisions about stuff more important than clothes. Long article from '97 on how they did it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-anwu6EOjw

Dockers commercial at 1:00.

From Gladwell's article linked above:

The one ad in the "Nice Pants" campaign which isn't like the Bugle Boy spots is called "Motorcycle." In it a nice young man happens upon a gleaming Harley on a dark back street of what looks like downtown Manhattan. He strokes the seat and then, unable to contain himself, climbs aboard the bike and bounces up and down, showing off his Dockers (the "product shot") but accidentally breaking a mirror on the handlebar. He looks up. The Harley's owner-a huge, leather-clad biker-is looking down at him. The biker glowers, looking him up and down, and says, "Nice pants." Last shot: the biker rides away, leaving the guy standing on the sidewalk in just his underwear.

What's surprising about this ad is that, unlike "Vive la France" and "Subway Love," it does seem to cross the boundaries of acceptable sex talk. The rules of guy advertising so carefully observed in those spots-the fact that the hero has to be naïve, that he can't be too good-looking, that he can't get the girl, and that he can't be told anything stronger than "Nice pants"-are all, in some sense, reactions to the male fear of appearing too concerned with fashion, of being too pretty, of not being masculine. But what is "Motorcycle"? It's an ad about a sweet-looking guy down in the Village somewhere who loses his pants to a butch-looking biker in leather. "I got so much feedback at the time of 'Well, God, that's kind of gay, don't you think?' " Robert Hanson said. "People were saying, 'This buff guy comes along and he rides off with the guy's pants. I mean, what the hell were they doing?' It came from so many different people within the industry. It came from some of our most conservative retailers. But do you know what? If you put these three spots up-'Vive la France,' 'Subway Love,' and 'Motorcycle'-which one do you think men will talk about ad nauseam? 'Motorcycle.' It's No. 1. It's because he's really cool. He's in a really cool environment, and it's every guy's fantasy to have a really cool, tricked-out fancy motorcycle."

Hanson paused, as if he recognized that what he was saying was quite sensitive. He didn't want to say that men failed to pick up the gay implications of the ad because they're stupid, because they aren't stupid. And he didn't want to sound condescending, because Dockers didn't build a six-hundred-million-dollar business in five years by sounding condescending. All he was trying to do was point out the fundamental exegetical error in calling this a gay ad, because the only way for a Dockers man to be offended by "Motorcycle" would be if he thought about it with a little imagination, if he picked up on some fairly subtle cues, if he integrated an awful lot of detail. In other words, a Dockers man could only be offended if he did precisely what, according to Meyers-Levy, men don't do. It's not a gay ad because it's a guy ad. "The fact is," Hanson said, "that most men's interpretation of that spot is: You know what? Those pants must be really cool, because they prevented him from getting the shit kicked out of him."

Maybe they could have conveyed how desirable these jeans are by having the ad end with him getting the shit kicked out of him, but managing to keep his clothes on

we're not looking at this from the biker's perspective, imo.

You don't order it tall, venti, or mocha, like your old lady does a homo.

In this Meat Eating Manly Man worldview, ladies and homos are essentially the same thing.

wow a lot has changed in male-aimed advertising since that gladwell article!

What David Altschiller, at Hill, Holliday/Altschiller, in Manhattan, liked about the spots, for example, was that the hero was naïve: in neither case did he know that he had on nice pants until a gorgeous woman told him so. Naïveté, Altschiller stressed, is critical. Several years ago, he did a spot for Claiborne for Men cologne in which a great-looking guy in a bar, wearing a gorgeous suit, was obsessing neurotically about a beautiful woman at the other end of the room: "I see this woman. She's perfect. She's looking at me. She's smiling. But wait. Is she smiling at me? Or laughing at me? . . . Or looking at someone else?" You'd never do this in an ad for women's cologne. Can you imagine? "I see this guy. He's perfect. Ohmigod. Is he looking at me?" In women's advertising, self-confidence is sexy. But if a man is self-confident-if he knows he is attractive and is beautifully dressed- then he's not a man anymore. He's a fop. He's effeminate. The cologne guy had to be neurotic or the ad wouldn't work. "Men are still abashed about acknowledging that clothing is important," Altschiller said. "Fashion can't be important to me as a man. Even when, in the first commercial, the waiter says 'Nice pants,' it doesn't compute to the guy wearing the nice pants. He's thinking, What do you mean, 'Nice pants'?"

It's Time to Wear the Relaxed Fit Pants

xp take into account that if a guy is dressed magnificently and acts like he knows it, that's not necessarily a hugely attractive trait?

i mean more--compare what hes saying to the ketel one ad up top

I think the Ketel One ad still plays into male insecurities--you're not a man today (whether it's your fault or the world's) but last night...

living in a pre-clooney world

xp sure, i mean, of course it plays to insecurities--all advertising does--its just that altschiller is saying that the aspirational fantasy of the ad shouldnt be preening & self-confident, because (in 1997) men dont want to "care" about how they look. but the aspirational fantasy of the ketel one ad is all about preening self-confidence and caring how you look.

"Men are still abashed about acknowledging that clothing is important," Altschiller said. "Fashion can't be important to me as a man. Even when, in the first commercial, the waiter says 'Nice pants,' it doesn't compute to the guy wearing the nice pants. He's thinking, What do you mean, 'Nice pants'?"

my point basically being that i dont think this is true anymore

I think at times the "be a MAN" schtick is kind of useful as a stand-in for "be an ADULT," -- something that's kind of useful in an era of prolonged childhood.

Yep! Also, my biggest objection to dudes "broing down" in the desert w dune buggies is that I want to go.

its maybe "useful" but turning it into "be a MAN" instead of "be a GROWN UP" means that its always being defined against women & gays which is hardly very nice

xx-post max i think it's still true in many dude circles, but def less true than before

i dont think its very true in natl television advertising!

But I think Clooney and Obama are steering us toward an ideal in which "be a man" doesn't mean against women and gays, and with that comes the confidence that we, and not just the Dekes, are men.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3599/3420371862_f8de0799e1_o.jpg

that would be great if i wasnt looking at an ad at the top of the screen that strikes me as defining masculinity very specifically against women and gays.

as does for that matter the ketel one ad

"use Playboy frequently"

xxx-post oh! well, yes. sry 2 misread u on that.

i'm with you on the "be a man" idea being a poor proxy for achieving adulthood, smacks of implying women are juvenile and/or incapabale of taking care of things, p regressive

OK the ad is obv BS, but about the grown-up vs "man" idea: you have to work this out for yrself. You are a man, some of us are women -- this is more than incidental to our identities, but what EXACTLY it means for us is personal. Once I was a woman who was not grown up, and now I is one who is.

nah you didnt misread, i was unclear--obviously there are large swaths of the population in a 1997 dont-care-about-my-appearance mindset

xp

What does it mean that we are supposed to "man up" but "bro down"??

man is v seriousss (suits, business), bro is fun (flip flops, dune buggies)

but laurel if you say "be a MAN" and you mean "be a MAN and not a WOMAN" youre necessarily implying that women are bad, or that being like a woman is bad.

Well maybe that's a common underlying intention in that phrase, but to me personally it's more like, "Be a man because you are one -- accept it and redefine it for yourself but live up to SOMETHING" and I will be a woman because I am one and ditto the above.

ok yeah but thats a way more complex and abstracted reading of the phrase than is ever encouraged by the ads

If I say, "be a MAN", I am implying that some other people with penises are not worthy to qualify as "men" by my standards, and I don't want you to be one of them.

Is that better/simpler? But anyway yeah I'm not arguing w you about advertising cos u right, and also I didn't grow up with the question of sufficient manliness hovering around me all the time and being oppressive.

what would you sell with this concept of MAN?

no i mean i see what youre saying laurel i just am still skeptical of the phrase partly cause i dont know how i feel about gender essentialism and susan faludi and fight club and all that shit

MEN WERE STRIPPED OF THEIR KHAKIS

^^doing the world a huge favor, btw

Khakis are nice to lounge around in, stfu.

: )

i'm with you on the "be a man" idea being a poor proxy for achieving adulthood, smacks of implying women are juvenile and/or incapabale of taking care of things, p regressive

don't agree with this at all- the more natural thing to draw from it is to be a man as opposed to being a boy, not a woman.

I like the Gap's 90s campaign to re-associate khakis with writers, Miles, etc. Men vs. drones.

http://www.writing.upenn.edu/~afilreis/Images/jksm.gif

xp in certain contexts that might be true but its hard to pretend that the idea of man-as-opposed-to-woman doesnt inhere given that you know "man" is a gendered word

yeah actually eazy i think the gaps 90s campaign is the real harbinger for the ketel one type ad--and maybe even the dockers ad--with this whole 'lost era of american masculinity' type nostalgia

x post to mac in the context of many male-aimed ads (esp the top ad in question), the foil is not boyhood but primarily the "opposite" gender and its ill effects on manhood

matter fact, in sort of bro-type ads (dave and busters comes to mind immediately), boyhood and the casting off of adult responsibilities is celebrated!

I agree, max, and I think yr right that being aware of which side is being run down by comparisons to the other is crucial to be on the lookout for, but I think there are more charitable views of what "be a man" entails sometimes.

xp Things that celebrate being bros are NOT what the manly ad is about. Most definitely.

What is Dave & Buster's?

men vs drones is the only one of these I could even sort of get behind. I want to see the man as adult camp come up with some nostalgic call to arms on the lines of the ad up top. "hoodie by hoodie, xbox by xbox"...?

xpost to laurel, it is like a video games and wings and beer kind of place, like chuck e cheese for adults...i don't know a comparable analogue elsewhere in the country, but they exist in texas and advertise on a sort of "be a kid again yay!" tip to the 20-30 y/o dude set

Dave and Busters, Laurel. No kidding.

http://www.travelks.com/images/Listing/5840-Co-Ed_Games_media.jpg

Look at the things men are expected to do in the Kettel 1 ad: they are all things that are WORK for them, and that benefit others. Now, whether some of them are the best solution to the world's problems is debateable (why hello dere, Promise Keeprs), but those commands are not about having fun or being irresponsible. It's more like they're telling you, Your life is best when it's devoted to others. Go and see where your strength and skills can be put to use.

This, at it's best and not in a shitty ad way, is kind of amazing for everyone, plus I wouldn't be too bothered by the gender component of that. Mostly because anyone for whom a life of service was a desirable thing, is probably not too bothered about exactly who does what in reality.

With Dave & Busters and Ketel One, I think part of the idea is that "we validate your thoughts and feelings--wanting to be a kid, wanting to be a cad--that aren't being validated around you, whether by your boss, your wife, your kids, etc.--and by validating those feelings in a safe way (i.e., don't leave your family, don't screw around) we will complete you as a man. Come off to the Ketel One woods with us, and you will return complete and confident--not changed, but with your internal self more merged with your social self. We'll make you a complete man."

OK wait I think I misunderstood something: what is the original ad with all the words on it for?

man pants iirc

Is that a Levi's ad? Some of it looks like their web design.

xps to max & bison yeah i'll accept that's more than fair in view of the ads in question.

kerouac wore khakis; ginsberg wore corduroys

http://fashiontribes.typepad.com/main/images/allen_ginsberg.jpg
Ginsberg wore OshKosh B'Gosh.

I don't think the dockers ad is so much an advert for selfless heroism so much as identifying selfless heroism as a trait on a par with "not being a fag" in the modern definition of being a MAN.

lol xp

That Dockers ad is hilariously stupid. I associate wearing Dockers with being in high school so the whole "BE A MAN" thing is pretty much entirely undercut by the fact that I was a child intentionally buying conservative pants that I could wear wit combat boots and Cure t-shirts.

I wish Harry Stein's Esquire article from 1994 about the "post-sensitive man" (Clinton and Lyle Lovett as examples, leading the way for Obama and Cloon) was on-line somewhere. Instead, there's just coverage of it from the NY Times:

The May issue trumpets the ascendance of the Post-Sensitive Man, one who treats women with respect but no longer needs to feel guilty "for the crime of simply thinking and feeling as men always have," as the article's author, Harry Stein, puts it.

The Sensitive Man, who re-created himself in response to feminism -- condemning the macho spirit, proclaiming emotional openness and purging prurient thoughts -- was always something of a fraud, asserts Mr. Stein, who is 45 and married. What's more, everyone was still dissatisfied, anyway. He suggests optimistically that today, in the easy-going acceptance of the inner differences between men and women and an end to self-righteousness on all sides, lies the possibility of "genuine understanding between the sexes."

where do buffed out dudes in brightly-colored MMA bootyshorts and foil-pressed images of brass knuckles on $175 tshirts enter into this masculinity discussion?

around 2007 i think

o i thought you said "when"--should have responded, "around the metropolitan ave stop"

i <3 you, max

Results 1 - 10 of about 65,100 for "sensitive new-age man". (0.37 seconds)

just curious what macho-khakism has to do with peacocking MMA dudes, if anything. is there a shift because of the economy? who's the REAL fag here??

(also just trying to bring up that there are many masculinities in the culture and talking in monolithic terms is oversimplifying the picture.)

like old western, mustache, strong silent type man or international playboy sophisticate type man or athletic and muscles MMA type or etc etc?

ads for the marines feel like a combo of all three for me (not so much the second)

military ads are like the ideal masculine ads, and they combine the commitment to serving others impulse laurel described earlier with the "plus you can be macho and blow shit up" impulse of...i dunno, mma and dave and busters ok i am grasping at straws on that i think

So what type of pants do you all wear on the weekends?

wait, you can blow shit up at Dave & Busters??????????????????

piloting a drone is just like d&bs afaik

So what type of pants do you all wear on the weekends?

Problem w/the premise here, in that if u are wearing pants on the weekend u are misunderstanding the concept of "weekend."

I guess you do your grocery shopping on Wednesdays, then.

i shop at an exclusive men's only pantsless grocery store fyi

fuck it, let's blame all this bullshit on Fight Club

eh why do that when can blame it on feminism and vote republican for the rest of our lives

"you are not your goddamn khakis"

real men use plastic forks! what are you supposed to do during the Real Man (TM) activity of BBQing????

use big steel fuck-off ones, that's if you just don't use mammoth tusks.

man all these years i might has well have been holding my BBQ tongs with my vagina : (

how the hell does one BBQ with a plastic fork???????

men, we are all doomed

metal forks are best if you have a lady to wash them and can thus avoid the castrating effects of dishwater

you BBQ with steel implements of doom

you eat BBQ with yr goddamned BARE HANDS

rawr

surely you chain saw the meat into pieces before shoving the whole lot into your mouth together with some charcoal with your bare hands

xpost

lol Dan grocery shopping is women's work

Nobody's copping to their pants.

you don't actually cook the meat, by the way, you just want to eat the hot charcoal and have the meat cooked inside your stomach

how the hell does one BBQ with a plastic fork???????

men, we are all doomed

― wtf?!? just randomly started crying! (HI DERE), Wednesday, December 9, 2009 4:03 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

dude I mean eating like your potato salad and baked beans with a plastic fork...i mean who wants to bring actual silverware to the park???

wearing women's panties right now tbh

rawr

Worrying about silverware is not a man's job!

http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/images18/ChihuahuaViansBigMacAttackMac3.JPG

RAWR

how do you eat cous cous with a fork anyway?

I don't understand why they are using the Levis design manual and then not putting a brand name in? It is just a free ad, for Levis, by someone else?

it's dockers, same company

I have a lot to learn about being a man.

RAWR.

Its not an ad, it's from their website:

http://www.us.dockers.com/season/landing.aspx

wait I thought khakis were for pussies...

jesus i came to work feeling like ray lewis and i'm gonna leave feeling like klaus nomi.

RAWR.

i eat my food off the floor, sometimes out of a bowl. . . if i'm feeling fancy. . . otherwise, it's off the floor

RAWR

feelings are for women, matt

I just punched a deer in the face.

RAWR.

i piss in the woods and shake hands with strangers and goddamn it I MAKE EYE CONTACT

RAWR

despite being flawless sometimes i make mistakes deliberately so i can stand up to admit to them.

RAWR

i taught a bobcat how to whistle the theme from rocky. my workout routine is running for my life every morning to its majestic ersatz trumpet fanfare.

RAWR

My Vietnam Vet dad looks UP to ME godammit

RAWR

this thread is turning into Courage Wolf Part II: The Wrath of Courage Wolf

RAWR

I will wear a Claiborne shirt with Calvin Klein pants without even blinking

RAWR

RAwr no what

RAWR?

my workout routine is running for my life every morning to its majestic ersatz trumpet fanfare.
wait a second
i've done this
does that make me a man?

(note: my name is amanda. when i was a kid people used to say "a man...DUH" and i think that moment is coming full circle for me right now in triumphant manliness)

howie long is my mantor

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGI8IRXRqpo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3jUumdgPyw

sigh

God
I think the increasing fashion-awareness or image-consciousness in men that is characterized as "feminisation" is actually just a symptom of the broadening reach of consumer capitalism & marketing. someone once said that "metrosexuality" was concocted & encouraged by magazines & advertising because the paradigm of straight men being oblivious to what they wear is bad for business. more straight men today(and not just so-called hipsters) are more concerned about clothing, I believe, but overall perhaps it's just a triumph of marketing.

OR perhaps men are just exposed to way more media than half a century ago, ie, surfing the internet at work instead on the assembly line or something? i don't know just taking wild guesses

re: the "There's no more John Wayne's anymore," comment in the Emascualting Truth video. If this statement is true, I seriously don't think the cause lies with chemicals in water / food or whatever but rather in the fact that middle class men today are not being raised to fight in wars? during the world War II / Cold War era, the stakes were such that people just HAD to have a certain toughness that isn't necessary today & thus a certain image of John Wayne masculinity was the ideal, but that was always an extreme to begin with, plus I don't think even John Wayne himself was 100% John Wayne IRL

plus I reckon it's politically incorrect to act in such a way now what with women & gheys having "rights" these days, shucks

I always identified with Jack Kerouac 1000 times more than John Wayne actually

& the Kerouac ad actually kinda makes me want to wear khakis tbh

Famed metrosexual Marion Morrison, you mean?

I don't think even John Wayne himself was 100% John Wayne IRL

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uv_WGEHr4I

http://www.glendalehigh.com/images2/johnwayne-1.jpg

I ate a caesar salad with crab meat for lunch today while wearing brown corduroy trousers and a kicky Missoni cardigan- am I part of the problem here?

I washed it down with an espresso, is that more testicular than a latte for some reason? Or is it Euro-faggy and thus not macho?

(I didn't use a plastic fork though- metal cutlery all the way).

single or double espresso?

See corduroys and khakis inhabit the same place for me.

double espresso

for me, its:

corduroy = hipster
khaki = probably has a job of some kind (Best Buy?)

how did indifference to one's appearance become a "masculine" trait, anyway?

I'm not indifferent to my appearance and I think its ridiculous that people trot out khakis as a synechdoche of that!

Chiming in late here, but one of the interesting things I get from this is not just the evolution of the aspired-to image of masculinity, of being a "proper fella," but the complete inversion of it.

For example, the Starbucks thing; you take the aforementioned previous desired image of men from the 50s/Playboy/Jetset/Bond era, the Clooney/Obama vector, shall we call it. The suave, debonair, cosmopolitan & knowledgeable man. Not just a grown-up, or a teenager 20 years on who's acquired a full golf bag of deficiency-compensating behaviors, but an actual adult with a developed inner self.

Where the postwar jetsetter ideal was the man(James Bond, Cary Grant onscreen, etc) who would easily walk into any cafe either in some deep beatnik enclave or on the Continent and order a vente. You have the image of a man sure of himself; a worldly, well-read fellow who's picked up a bit here and there, rather than the anti-intellectual/homophobic/insecure/reactionary thicko who'd call him faggit for using that term.

What was once the apex of masculinity became inverted to the level of the foppish homosexual. (That that 50s man was homophobic as well is an interesting irony)

Key example: shaving kits. I can't find a good magazine advert for a kit, but you get the idea; the concept that a proper adult male cares about what he looks like and makes an effort to look presentable both to the ladies and to the office.

The metrosexual thing just seems like a way to get that idea back into a pop comprehension, as such concerns("who gives a shit if I look like a schlub?!") were deliberately ignored for two decades or more.

this thread has been making me die laughing when i should be writing a paper. that is indicting this sort of thing.

smoke break. and btw, I'M A MARLBORO MAN.

This thread is making me swoon a little bit cos I don't really think about MEN as such all that often and now I'm thinking about it more.

goldmine:

http://pzrservices.typepad.com/vintageadvertising/advertising_from_the_1950s/

http://pzrservices.typepad.com/vintageadvertising/advertising_from_the_1960s/

http://pzrservices.typepad.com/vintageadvertising/vintage_advertising_to_men/

Looking at this stuff now, it's very difficult to see these old illustrated adverts that haven't be re-purposed by Winston Smith.

this whole "men caring about their appearance = feminisation" always comes across weird to me. I'm a schlubby and not particularly masculine man and my paternal grandfather was really macho, fairly successful at boxing while in the army, and always carried a comb (was nicknamed "el gato" for his love of grooming) and was perpetually drowned in cologne. Metrosexual bastard.

like the idea that it's a new thing.

how foppish were victorians with their antimacassars.

this thread does remind me that i need to get a couple of new suits.

how did indifference to one's appearance become a "masculine" trait, anyway?

think about it from the point of view of your modern american conservative: a "real man" just acts from his gut, he doesn't dally around with wishy-washy contemplation or emotions. He's got important things to do, snap decisions to make, and everything else is secondary. He's far too busy and important to worry about how pretty he looks that day. That's silly shit for wimmen & faggits & shit.

True wimmen will be attracted to his naturally rugged good looks(which of course are natural and thus require no effort or second thought) and masculine musk that he stanks out of his pores.

it's so weird that this happened considering what lefty commie fags and rightwing all american heroic dudes looked like 45 years ago.

how did indifference to one's appearance become a "masculine" trait, anyway?

Because when you're bad at, or ill-prepared for something, nothing is as classic as intimating that all of those skills you don't have are for losers, anyway.

the basic tom frank point is that masculinity, whatever its style, has always been marketed.

what i see in common, but don't really know what to make of, between ^^khakis ad, "the game", retroid style/identity moves either of the martini-classy or '30s beardo working-man variety, even Queer Eye, is: they are all about What To Do. they all offer a program, a way out of alienation. are you lost? are other men getting theirs? we can help!

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/9804/tuxedo.jpg

Speaking of new suits, you could sell these now and make good money. Hell, I'd dress like fuckin' Jon Pertwee every day if I were allowed to, and could afford it.

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa48/spryte_album/MISC/RealMen.jpg

1982

i think the thing with a lot of those programs that are supposed to lead you to some ideal masculinity is that maybe in theory they're supposed to work well, but 90% of the time when i see guys trying to be sophisticated martini dudes or classy beardos in suits or guys who run circles around women w/the game book in hand, the efforts and execution are awkward or ugly and classless.

and hey, ketel one dudes? sorry:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51G4JT7FCVL.jpg

is there a commonality at all b/w the idea of men not caring abt the appearance and men not caring about their health/nutrition? seems like i've seen a number of ads for patently unhealthy food (fast food, "hungry man" dinners) that treat gustatory excess as some manly pursuit (counter this with most health-conscious food commercials being targetted at women).

men's health is usually for shit like boner pills and supplements/routines to get your RIPPPPPPPED

*ads targeted towards men's health

real men don't care about their health because their life spans are already shortened by the girth and length of their monstrous penises

yeah, the quiche book, which i place at just the right time when they were all reacting to the Alan Alda "sensitive man" vibe of the 70s. I think an early Bloom County strip mentions this explicitly.

i think so, because men are the ones who are cared for. if there is no one to care for them they will turn into animals who eat the nearest/easiest thing. you also learn from commercials that they don't care about the appearance of their living space
xposts

the most "bro" ads that run are ads for vodka or carl's jr

seems like i've seen a number of ads for patently unhealthy food (fast food, "hungry man" dinners) that treat gustatory excess as some manly pursuit

Yeah, lotsa crossover. remember a real man eats heartily of life and has kingshit big appetites, like a brian blessed character(or just brian blessed), for food or women. health or appearance matters not. Remember, the idea here is to tamp down all conscious thought, self-examination, or any sort of internal life. Act without thinking is what is best in life.

"care, feeding, and grooming own damn self" is a virtue regardless of gender imho

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFyzC4V_x-w

xx-post you realize you have basically described jabba the hutt rite

Wrangler actually makes good jeans though, for real.

lol i love that wrangler ad, nothing brutal about football concussions or brain damage in boxing, no sir

only wrnagler ads i remember are brett favre just having fun (non-professional context)

jabba ate frogs, not hungryman dinners

Will somebody explain the Alan Alda thing for me? I know he was on the show MASH but how did he become the archetype of sensitivity? I thought his character was a sarcastic asshole ?

I thought it was Wrangler that had the animated ads in the 80s, turns out it was Levis

i think we are overlooking class in our discussion here -- being unconcerned with appearances goes from ruggedly masculine to just plain boorish as you go up the ladder, for example

Alda's prominence in the enormously successful M*A*S*H gave him a platform to speak out on political topics, and he has been a strong and vocal supporter of women's rights and the Feminist Movement. He co-chaired, with former First Lady Betty Ford, the ERA Countdown campaign. In 1976, the Boston Globe dubbed him "the quintessential Honorary Woman: a feminist icon" for his activism on behalf of the Equal Rights Amendment.

http://www.google.com/search?q=alan+alda+sensitive+man

Mix of self-styling and marketing, looks like. Same as true as in any era

xp

yeah further down the class ladder if you don't dress down to your level you're some kind of weirdo (at best.) there was this guy i knew in college who wore three-piece suits every day (with pocketwatch!) and carried a leather briefcase. i'm sure every college has one guy like that. anyway, he was definitely considered weird but he was just a normal guy who liked suits.

hmm i think the alan alda guy is a descendant of the bob hope guy, but instead of a mouthy dickhead barely hanging on in a world of better men, he's a mouthy dickhead getting away with everything, cos the better men are all fakes.

lol boomers, lol writers. dream on!

let's all just agree as the greeks did that having an meekly uncircumsized penis exemplifies masculine virtue and that having an bulbous, exposed glans is strictly for slaves, foreigners, and other lowly sorts

lol omar went to school with M. White

haha comment avez-vous deviné ? ;-)

polidicks of glansing xxpost

there was this guy i knew in college who wore three-piece suits every day

there have only been a few occasions in my life in which I have been in a suit

but I kind of enjoyed it, I felt v. classy / had a spring in my step

I would probably enjoy dressing like a swingin' playboy from time to time, and I sure think the guy you described had guts to dress the way he did with the briefcase & whatnot

but as fun as it would be for me personally it just wouldn't be worth labeling myself as "that guy"

i.e. that guy who wears a three piece suit

unless I was a famous musician in which case I could possibly get away with it

this is what I would listen to if I wore khakis:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8PSYorL1cE

i usually get asked why "i got all dressed up" whenever i put on a goddamn necktie. standards are that low.

The cafeteria lady at my job asked me why I was all dressed up one day. Because I'm at work!

She's incredibly good people though.

i just had lunch with a bunch of co-workers and one of them wore an oversized tweed sportcoat and everyone's like "heyyyy you got an interview or something???"

an interview....with destiny!!!

a stripper he had met the night before

every single office i've worked in, when anyone dresses up it's like "lol interview!"

"wore three-piece suits every day (with pocketwatch!)"

the pocketwatch is insane but this is otherwise standard business school attire lotsa places.

http://www.lovingit.co.uk/images/2007-07_yorkie-vans.jpg

every single office i've worked in, when anyone dresses up it's like "lol interview!"

Every time someone does that to me, I stop and say, "No, no, court appearance," and walk away. Generally, they don't bug me about it afterwards.

"i'm being tried for murder : |"

Michael White is the living example of a quote I have stuck to my wall: "I don't deserve credit for turning the other cheek because my tongue is always in it."

http://www.blogadilla.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/dangerousbook4boys.jpg

i know this is more kid-aimed, but it seems def like preparing for some idealized manhood

I feel ashamed for thinking it, but they really need some noms de plume.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGI8IRXRqpo

Geez, what a pussy!

I always wear a tie when I'm giving a lecture. I figure if over 60 people are going to look at you for an hour, then you could make an effort.

i wear a tie when im having sex

I came out the womb wearing a tie

xx-post you realize you have basically described jabba the hutt rite

― it's like 10,000 goons when all you need is a trife (m bison), Wednesday, December 9, 2009 2:23 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

tbf jabba was pretty pimp

Michael White is the living example of a quote I have stuck to my wall: "I don't deserve credit for turning the other cheek because my tongue is always in it."

― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Wednesday, December 9, 2009 3:57 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

hahaha

re: "The Dangerous Book for Boys"

my kid brother has that book, and let me tell you it's boring

it mostly consists of various diagrams of swiss army knives

dangerous, hah!

i really dont care abt quiche and khakis or whatever else is supposed to signify u meaty and awesome - if men have some little coffee drink and it makes them happy im down w/that - however there are some aspects of our society which deviate from traditional stoic masculinity in a way id rather not deal with

particularly the tendency of guys my age and younger to bond over pop culture in a formal near religious manner - so much nervous energy expended over dudes making sure they have the same opinion of and know all the lines from caddyshack

and it extends beyond pop culture sharing to some wider constant checking in that i cant quite articulate rite now - like dude dude did u see that chick she was awesome rite she was awesome remember that one chick omg yes remember her ok ok - dnw this bro culture neediness

id rather gaze mysteriously toward the horizon

I'm not sure that either of those is much of a deviation from old-school manliness. Memorizing/geeking out on pop culture is a modern variation on being knowledgeable about, I dunno, hunting or how to fix a riding lawnmower or whatever. Most of society has been removed from those kinds of tasks, so the communal knowledge that gets you into the man-group has changed.

Comparing penis size (either "look how hot my wench is" or "man I want that wench, she so fine) is pretty standard in history, too.

I think an early Bloom County strip mentions this explicitly.

― kingfish, Wednesday, December 9, 2009 2:19 PM (8 hours ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i remember this!

eh i feel like maybe there used to be some standard of not being so openly needy abt these things - u just grunt and nod xp

What David Altschiller, at Hill, Holliday/Altschiller, in Manhattan, liked about the spots, for example, was that the hero was naïve: in neither case did he know that he had on nice pants until a gorgeous woman told him so. Naïveté, Altschiller stressed, is critical. Several years ago, he did a spot for Claiborne for Men cologne in which a great-looking guy in a bar, wearing a gorgeous suit, was obsessing neurotically about a beautiful woman at the other end of the room: "I see this woman. She's perfect. She's looking at me. She's smiling. But wait. Is she smiling at me? Or laughing at me? . . . Or looking at someone else?" You'd never do this in an ad for women's cologne. Can you imagine? "I see this guy. He's perfect. Ohmigod. Is he looking at me?" In women's advertising, self-confidence is sexy. But if a man is self-confident-if he knows he is attractive and is beautifully dressed- then he's not a man anymore. He's a fop. He's effeminate. The cologne guy had to be neurotic or the ad wouldn't work. "Men are still abashed about acknowledging that clothing is important," Altschiller said. "Fashion can't be important to me as a man. Even when, in the first commercial, the waiter says 'Nice pants,' it doesn't compute to the guy wearing the nice pants. He's thinking, What do you mean, 'Nice pants'?"

― max, Wednesday, December 9, 2009 6:11 AM (14 hours ago) Bookmark

max quoting an article on advertising

but both the author and the interviewee are being a bit disingenuous, imo. i don't believe that advertisers of this era were simply noticing that men were not fashion-conscious. they were instead deliberately attempting to encourage a degree of neurosis in men in order to manipulate them into relying on products. the hook of the cologne ad is that the guy's self-doubt is relatable. in his slightly comical neurosis about his own attractiveness, he mimics the target viewer's doubts. so a connection in forged. and that probably works as a selling point, especially in a more-self conscious era.

but it also reinforces a much more basic psychological dynamic: that to be male is to feel inadequate about one's appeal to the opposite sex, and that to buy the proper grooming product is to assuage this anxiety. and advertisers KNOW that. they certainly know that about female consumers. ads for women's beauty products aren't based on the idea that female consumers DO feel "confident" about their looks. they're based entirely on the idea that they don't. they therefore don't instill confidence, they undercut it. and then they offer to sell it back to you. and that's exactly what's going on in the cologne ad.

in initially encouraging this kind of neurosis in men, advertisers probably had to depict it quite literally. thus the man is actually shown expressing doubt about himself. in this sense, it's a very primitive, first-stage ad of its type. ads selling sex appeal to women don't have to show her feeling self-conscious - due to decades (centuries) of fashion & beauty industry messages telling women that they aren't sufficiently attractive to begin with, advertisers can simply count on a profound degree of female self-doubt.

a little later on, as in our era, male doubt (like female doubt) can simply be assumed. now that "male consumers" have been buffeted by a few decades of conflicting, manipulative "you're not good enough" messages, it can be safely assumed that they are neurotic and confused about their own standing as men. ads can simply suggest that to buy this product will quell that confusion, will make you a real man. so it doesn't surprise me that we're seeing a lot of such messages.

dude

: /

?

!

My favorite marketed for men product = MAN TISSUES

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3207/2405941831_eb1ccafca7.jpg
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2240/2405942091_f9e1d13579.jpg

they were instead deliberately attempting to encourage a degree of neurosis in men in order to manipulate them into relying on products

OTM

LOLOLOLOLOL @ man-tissues

"LET'S FACE IT YOU LIKE WANKING"

Strong, Soft, Sorted.

british only?

Soaks all those spills, and is still kind on you

btw when product marketers attempt to produce poetry or little short stories on their products, baby Jesus cries

id rather gaze mysteriously toward the horizon

http://www.canvasreplicas.com/images/Wanderer%20Above%20the%20Sea%20of%20Fog%20Caspar%20David%20Friedrich.jpg

hitting a bunch of angles at once (yr too fat, men like bacon, FOR MEN ONLY)

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3590/3538717595_b4010e8e3e.jpg

dunno whether or not that's been posted, thread's hella long

(deej - yeah, I think the man tissues are UK only. That's where I saw them.)

im just thinking "sorted!" wouldnt really translate well here -- oh good theyve arranged the tissues within the box

omg man tissues, I'm dying here.

Can someone explain "sorted" to me?

Somehow all I can think when I see Kleenex for Men is "it's okay to cry."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aaghba_DDbg

What's the Aerosmith video that has a closeup of a man crumpling a tissue? I can't remember which one it is, but I remember the MTV VJ making jokes about it.

"sorted" - pretty much means taken care, all set, finished. Does that make sense?

Just realized that it's probably short for "sorted out".

ENBB is you a britisher? I never knew.

No but I lived there for two years which is when I saw the tissues etc.

"man tissues" is mystifying wtf lol. can't imagine anyone thinking that was a good idea in the states.

then again, men could benefit

my wife and i lolled at man-size tissues boxes we saw in ireland

Totally bought a box the day I first saw them btw. Too good to pass up imo.

btw I eat luna bars

have fun growing a vagina

(the dulce de leche ones are AWESOME)

I mean mostly I eat CLIF BARS! but sometimes we run out and I eat the wife's Luna bars. Come to think of it it is fucking ridiculous that we actually buy his and hers energy bars.

wait, luna bars are for women? fuck, no wonder jalabi chalabi behind the counter snickered whenever I bought one of those

i usually keep a few in the trunk of my car

http://www.beautyheaven.com.au/article_images/2009/July/July-20/CliniqueSkinSuppliesForMenMaximumHydrator.jpg

http://i274.photobucket.com/albums/jj242/donaldparsley/mcoversmall.jpg

not particularly funny, just the other side of the coin, for full cognitive dissonance

Yeah are like the Lifetime TV of energy bars.

luna bars are a sorta rare instance of a product that's generally non-gendered having a special "for her" version. though i guess that's not uncommon in the health supplements industry...

I don't see those kinda bars being non-gendered at all, though.

dulce de leche vaginas ARE awesome. xpost

;)

wait, luna bars are for women? fuck, no wonder jalabi chalabi behind the counter snickered whenever I bought one of those

― Spectrum, Thursday, December 10, 2009 1:23 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i usually keep a few in the trunk of my car

― velko, Thursday, December 10, 2009 1:25 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

women

http://web.lemoyne.edu/~freemams/index_files/bundy_ted_.jpg

is that in response to my Patrick Bateman post?

oh whoops - keeps women in the trunk of his car, duh.

I think he was saying luna's keys got locked in the trunk when he was going to meet her at a bar

I see little need to make this thread darker than it was to start with.

did she have a lot of junk in her trunk?

"jalabi chalabi"?? wtf

considered but refrained from saying something about that

but yes

wtf

I had a huge multiparagraph post that I wrote out on the train on my phone, but I had forgotten to log in and so the post disappeared. An attempted reconstruction:

Maybe one of the things that has pointed men away from dressing well is a need to feel frugal.

I googled the Missoni cardigan mentioned above and the garment costs multiple hundreds of dollars. I wouldn't pay over a hundred for anything other than a business suit, a winter coat, or shoes. I expect for many even that would seem overpriced. Ultimately, "dressing nicely" means wearing clothing of little utility in comparison with its cost.

I don't know to what extent this idea might be portrayed in advertising, but the thought struck me this morning and I kinda wanted to stick up for myself and the other slobs.

Maybe one of the things that has pointed men away from dressing well is a need to feel frugal.

Important corrollary to this is that haven't average household incomes decreased significantly since the Cary Grant postwar jetsetter era hailed above?

I wouldn't pay over a hundred for anything other than a business suit, a winter coat, or shoes.

not even shoes, tbh

good pair of jeans, tho, maybe

I wouldn't pay over a hundred fifty quid for anything other than a business suit, a winter coat, or shoes.

In relative terms, clothes used to be a bit more expensive 50 years ago so thrift came in the guises of a) more conservative dress sense and b) higher quality basics in the middle of the market - good wool suits etc. You'd spend the equivalent of a month's wages on a winter coat but wear it for 10 years minimum.

That is interesting info. Thanks, Suzy.

It's true.

Which is why the suit would be down the pawnbrokers, and back out on payday.

Yeah I don't mean to be all KIDS THESE DAYS but back-to-school always used to be about one pair of shoes (and maybe one pair of sneakers) plus capsule wardrobe and is now about buying in bulk at Target/J Crew plus a gazillion pairs of cheapo/less cheapo shoes, depending on your income - and natural fabrics. That attitude carried on through life. My grandparents spent a great deal of their '70s/'80s small talk whining about synthetic fabrics and the false economies/tackiness of same.

This is why all of my Mad Men-era clothes inherited from various female relatives stay in perfect condition unless the moths get 'em, and why it's difficult to find good men's vintage suits - the jackets are always fine but dudes wore the butts/sacks out of the trousers.

Sacks, Suzy?

Unmentionable Man Problem, Mentioned: scrotal rub against fabric wearing out the fabric over time.

^ this one knows too much, she must be destroyed.

I hated the scrotal rub until I discovered boxer briefs.

God they must have had large scrota back then!

Dangly bits need support! Ask any titty-bearing human.

gotta be honest boxer briefs ain't done it for me, that's why i'd consider spending hard € on jeans these days.

aaaaannnd right back on track- masculinity is when your balls wear through DENIM RAWR

These are serious issues for the vintage clothing savant in your life. Also scrotal rub v. jeans FITE explains the absence of large stockpiles of big E Levi's.

big P Levi's tbh RAWR

...and what is truly awful is that camel-toeing has been known to have the same outcome in women, although there may be less locker-room pride involved than HAY GUYS, MY POWERBALLS DEFEATED WRANGLER.

"scrotal rub" itself is a marketing phrase for what is otherwise known as "chub rub". but whatever makes you feel better, thunderthighs.

a woman's pride come from sewing back together the jeans that were worn out by their man's balls.

so they they can wear them out again RAWR

Even though I've never been a victim of it, I am amazed that I've never heard the term 'chub rub' before.

i had a big chub rub problem in like 8th grade

talcum powder yall

I've never heard it either, and anyway doesn't "chub" mean something at least slightly other than dangle?

Depends on the angle of the dangle

Angle of dangle weighed against Heat of meat. Apparently the University of Colorado did a study.

http://www.agmates.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/sea-level-graph-450.jpg

Steer clear of this Jason guy, is my advice.

the angle of the dangle = the heat of the meat x the mass of the ass

Speaking of dangle angle:

http://www.kilchristcastle.com/Kintyre-Map2.gif

Ass. The Other Variable.

(New marketing slogan.)

otoh the rub of the chub is directly proportionate to the weight of the gait

I've never looked at the contents of that dangerous book for boys but from 2nd-hand impressions it seems like a juvenile version of the "X things every man must know" lists published in books or men's magazines. and then there's the subset of "X things every dad should know" lists.

http://www.randomhouse.com.au/systempicts/9780224086295.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3471/3248199882_3ed6759278.jpg

xp author's name too close to 'gay marriage', fail.

1) dont touch yrself in public

Oh, poo.

There is a generational need for some of these books TBH, just thinking of all the guys I know that didn't have activity-based quality time with their divorced dads but do have all this collective false nostalgia to pour into their own young families.

I am encouraged by the prominent presence of an ironing board on the cover.

It's not long enough to adequately iron the trousers.

Eh... it's one of those that hang from the top of the door. You make do.

More important to have an iron than an ironing board.

I am encouraged by the prominent presence of an ironing board on the cover.

I thought that was some kind of fucked-up snowboard. : (

YOU NEED THIS BOOK

You need "Snowboarding for Dummies"

I am confused by the triangle with the exclamation mark inside it. And the two magnifying glasses on either side of that. Did the cover artist run out of things he could draw, or did the author run out of things that men need to know?

afaik "how to change a tire" is on every single one of these lists, forever

Triangle represents fixing a car, "magnifying glass" looks more like a frying pan representing cooking skills, item top right is a baseball maybe?

xp and "how to suck a cock" is nowhere to be found. Hmmmm.

That'll be in the cookery section.

lol kenan

item top right is a baseball maybe?

Thought it was a burger

Can't be a baseball since it lacks seams. Golf ball, maybe, but no pocks.

The guy's British, so it can't be a baseball

Some kind of wickety stickety crickety bullshit?

snooker/billiard ball

testicle

It's a hamburger, you princesses.

afaik "how to change a tire" is on every single one of these lists, forever

A lot of people don't know how to change a tire.

It's a hamburger, you princesses.

How to Order a Burger

At least in the case of spare tires, the instructions are included. And changing any other tire is no different. If you can't figure out not to put the jack under a piece of molded plastic that will break, I have no pity for you.

my 8yo loves the dangerous book for boys

it taught him how to play poker + chess

it also has a section on how to talk to girls which is probably the most guidance he's going to get tbh

there's also a daring book for girls

this thread btw is like the inverse of itt a strange man asks etc

MEN WERE STRIPPED OF THEIR KHAKIS

^^doing the world a huge favor, btw

― WHY DON'T YOU JUST LICK THE BUS DIRECTLY (Laurel), Wednesday, December 9, 2009 9:52 AM (Yesterday) Bookmark

see laurel is sexually harassing us right here

I'm pretty sure she was thinking that the khakis would be replaced by other pants. A world of indiscriminately bare man legs is not a world any of us would want to live in.

ed i don't think i find objection to learning poker or chess from the dangerous book, but the fact that it's "for boys" is a bit odd to me. i'd be v surprised if the daring book for girls had a poker or chess tutorial tbh.

prescriptive gender roles therein are probably totally obvious but just sayin

I've only skimmed those books and yeah, lol gender prescriptivism. But aren't both of them kind of Boy Scout/Girl Guide-oriented? I don't think the girls' book is all "How to Change A Diaper" or anything.

Really the boys' book should include "How to Wash Your Own Sheets (Believe me, you'll thank us)".

I think the girls book is more like "here are some basic ciphers so you can trade secret gossipy messages with your girlfriends"?

karate moves, cartwheels, building a campfire, and yes--how to change a tire are all in the girls one

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0061472573/ref=s9_simp_gw_s0_p14_i1?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=1VVYMQVTA98H5828CRZ1&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=470938631&pf_rd_i=507846#reader_0061472573

I think both of these books sound awesome by the way--if I was a kid, I would be all over them

My dog found this one to be a pandering disappointment:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51E2FYZhbOL._SS500_.jpg

xxxp Well, "huh" to gossip subtext but codes themselves are pretty cool. Oh look, Que confirms it. I sort of liked the books -- obv purposefully "of another time"-looking but that is kind of cool stuff even if it IS fake nostalgia about a post-war, road-tripping, outdoors-exploring, birthing-new-Americans generation.

Really the boys' book should include "How to Wash Your Own Sheets (Believe me, you'll thank us)".

LOL

learning how to build a scooter is timeless, imho

I know, my dad built one out of a bicycle frame and some small engine when he was like 15? And then went on to have Vespas and later, cars that he rebuilt. I mean, why was I not that awesome at 15? I had a dune buggy, I guess, but I didn't built it myself.

ok u had a dune buggy???

?????

i will remember this next time u r complaining abt something on this bord

Yeah, as my first car. Orange frame, no body panels, street legal, 4 seats. Engine & transmission out of a VW bus. I drove it spring & summer for a couple of years. And the family took it dune-running in an approved "park" nearby. Learned to drive a stick in that thing, which was awesome b/c it was geared for a whole VAN and the buggy weighed nothing, so actually it was very forgiving.

Hey, sometimes Christians have fun too.

Just not too often, or they might get used to it.

gdamn i dreamed of dune buggies

just enough to let them know what heaven might be like

wife tells me her dad did similar, just sub vw bug for the bus

But even w a windshield, the wind speed was BRUTAL over about 35 or 40 mph, so it was just for tooling around locally. Funny, I never tried wearing a helmet....

M, is your wife Midwestern/conservative in her origins, too?

texas, but her dad is pretty conservative

http://mjmbooks.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/Speed-Buggy.jpg

so jealous that Laurel's first car could talk and solve mysteries

xpost her dad is just a total gearhead. both her parents are bikers, and he's a wrecker driver by trade.

holy shit i forgot about fucking speed buggy until just now

that seems like an experience one would remember forever

LOL. adjective/modifier, not verb

I'm going to write a book about spending a year trying to learn to do all of the things in all of those 100 things a man should know how to do books.

1. How to fuck a talking dune buggy

but would any man just happen to know how to do all those things if those lists did not exist? "you have been judged and found wanting, sissypants" is the subtext i get there

Kind of? Then again, remember the pic you posted of you having to tie a friend's tie? See, he should know how to do that.

i feel dumb when i don't know how to do something

And not to get way Fight Club or anything, but there are a lot of fatherless men out there who didn't exactly take up the mantle of "man of the house.'

Myself very much among them.

it's more like "you've been judged and found wanting, human being"

can change a tire, can't tie a tie

and I'm fully ok w/ that b/c ties are constricting in the neckal area

can barely do either one, myself. didn't know how to tie a tie until i was like 28? 29?

the idea that i should know how to split logs for firewood or hang drywall just because i have a dick AND that my masculinity should be called into question for wanting that knowledge is just weird -- i can learn how if and when the need arises!

learn how to tie a tie ffs

its like really easy

it has nothing to do with your dick elmo

well splitting logs can, but it's really difficult

Huh. Maybe my Christian-y childhood came in handy in this one way. When I got old enough that a clip-on became unseemly, Dad showed me the standard half-Windsor, and now it's like tying my shoes.

tieing, even

Splitting logs for firewood is actually rather fun. From what I've heard, hanging drywall is less so.

Linden Avenue Stomp

yeah it's sounds kinda. . .hard

Yeah seriously - the drywall in my apartment is already hung, and using firewood here would be a bit dangerous.

wait

never mind

i can learn how if and when the need arises!

Okay first of all YES YOU CAN, because you're open to the idea that you will be ABLE to do those things if you have to. Some people have already resolved to themselves that they will never be able to, so they won't.

But sometimes when the need arises it's kind of too late to learn? Dry-walling isn't really an emergency activity obv although it's less cool if you do it wrong the first 3 times and have to re-do it while your domestic partner watches spackle dry...but the willingness to do so is a v useful, commendable trait, imo. But like changing a tire at night in the rain or tying a tie when you're nervous and already late for something....these are not when you want to be "learning" things.

already ignored, don't worry

re: splitting logs.. why would one need to learn how to chop something in half... i mean, it's quite hard to not know what you need to do???

that was meant to be with dan's post. anyway, i think learning news things, all the time, is useful as a human being, and it's also something you're supposed to do. hanging drywall could come in handy sometime, but if it's not for you no big deal right?

i just made my first pie crust from scratch--totally awesome experience, will do it again. has nothing to do with my masculinity/femininity, it has everything to do with trying to be a good huan being

human

Protip: if you ever need logs split, ken, please ask someone else to do it for you. If you like having 4 limbs, that is.

we should be tearing down walls not building them fyi

definitely would take the protip and not cut my limb off.

knowing how to hang drywall is one of those things that is awesome and will save you a ton of $ if you want to re-do a room in your house or something like that, however the learning part suuucccccks

splitting is rly fun/easy if you have one of these

http://www.gvfarmmachinery.com.au/images/saleitems/implements/log500g.jpg

here u go im teaching u how to be a man

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hR4wfHw7Meo

easy beginner knot

que i am with you 100% about skill acquisition but on the topic of the thread, these list books are presenting these as gendered skills without which, well, you're just not manifesting your true manhood

btw is hanging drywall really on one of those lists - seems more like something every builder should know

i just made my first pie crust from scratch--totally awesome experience, will do it again. has nothing to do with my masculinity/femininity, it has everything to do with trying to be a good huan being

Yessssss! This is basic to the whole discussion -- but lots of people of BOTH genders don't know how to do stuff that used to be basic to either. Not that it redeems the douchebag ads but if we take any message away, it should be: Try to become a useful human being because you never know -- there's a reason your grandparents knew how to do stuff (Depression, war, times of need), and it could happen to you. Be prepared.

Here is a complete list of the tools I am proficient with:

screwdriver
hammer
adjustable wrench
paint roller

I am lost if you hand me a saw, a ratchet, a planer, a trawl, a propane torch, etc etc.

xp Also because knowing stuff is super fun!

hanging drywall was just something i threw out there as an example of a difficult "masculine" skill tbh

I can make a pie crust. My pie crusts have gotten rave reviews, actually. Granted, they were from my mother, but my mother would actually tell me if the pie crust sucked.

ratchets are for clapping IMO

Right?...

que i am with you 100% about skill acquisition but on the topic of the thread, these list books are presenting these as gendered skills without which, well, you're just not manifesting your true manhood

just sayin' you're reading a lot into these books, probably stuff the writers of the books haven't considered or thought about. i doubt the authors of the books would think you weren't a real man.

Also because knowing stuff is super fun!

100% could not agree more

Yessssss! This is basic to the whole discussion -- but lots of people of BOTH genders don't know how to do stuff that used to be basic to either

different people have different ideas of "basic", and this is fine, and worse than not knowing how to do stuff is being the kind of asshole who judges people based on whatever skill sets they have/don't have

Jesus, busy thread.

Just stopped in to say that this

http://www.diamondbacktactical.com/images/BodyGlide.jpg

puts an end to chub rub issues (chafing, aka in parts of the South as "galding" (sp?), in spanish "rosar").

because knowing stuff is super fun!

YES! Valuing knowing how to do stuff leads inevitably to knowing how to do stuff. If you care, if it matters to you, even if it's just because it's fun, you'll figure it out.

btw que i also recently made my first pie crust from scratch, too. let's have a bake-off to see who is more manly!

let's have a bake off to see who is more ~~delicious~~

also high fives, pie crusts rule

I bet there are a lot more men in the world right now who can replace an ethernet card, program a nanny-cam, or repair a mother board than men who can build a deck. I do not think this makes then especially vaginal.

(At least, I hope not.)

worse than not knowing how to do stuff is being the kind of asshole who judges people based on whatever skill sets they have/don't have

I am 100% okay with being that asshole, not about gendered stuff nec but about the idea of practical utility in general. People who don't know how to do everyday things that need doing...eh my patience for that is v short. My roommate is one of them, this causes me some domestic distress pretty much weekly.

xp kenan probably otm

my pie crust uses vodka! -- though scotch would be manlier (and perhaps inedible)

I bet there are a lot more men in the world right now who can replace an ethernet card, program a nanny-cam, or repair a mother board than men who can build a deck. I do not think this makes then especially vaginal.

― Cronenberg sleazy (kenan), Thursday, December 10, 2009 12:30 PM (46 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

was wondering if these nerd type things made any of the man lists - cause they really should

btw pretty sure i could build an ok deck just by reading instructions on the internet

hanging drywall was just something i threw out there as an example of a difficult "masculine" skill tbh

It's funny that you picked that example; the only person I know who has hung drywall and is not a building contractor is my mother-in-law. She is the least manly person I know. (She also used to fix her washing machine and dishwasher when they had problems; apparently being a former engineering student turned stay-at-home mom makes one very handy around the house.)

okay you just won the manly pie crust contest--you're using like birdshot and hardtack and nails and vodka, i'm using butter and flour

we should be breaking through the crusts that divide us not baking them

i made a pecan maple crumb crust, hollaaaaaa

Que, you make elmo's pie crust sound like it's CPK-approved

im guessing to hang drywall you just screw it into the studs rite - pretty sure i could accomplish that

I think you're the classic guy who does it really wrong.

guys decks aren't that hard

que, the vodka replaces part of the water which allows you to work with fairly wet, pliable dough while preventing gluten formation -- cook's illustrated, dawg

Dan, the inventor of the dishwasher was a rich lady whose servants never got her fragile china clean enough and/or broke it! I think her father was some kind of engineer, obv it ran in the fam.

I think you're the classic guy who does it really wrong.

― Cronenberg sleazy (kenan), Thursday, December 10, 2009 12:36 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i am the guy who GETS THE JOB DONE

...BADLY

For real, dishwashers are the result of taking the washing machine one step too far.

There is no such thing as "too far" when it makes dirty dishes clean without human intervention.

Maybe if you have the Brady Bunch in your house they make sense, but in that case go ahead and get a Hobart.

gbx OTM; my dad designed and built a multi-tierd deck using his three sons as manual labor after taking a six-week "how to design and build a deck" class that is still standing 23 years later

See, a 6-week class, though, that's a perfect example of "I want this skill; I can go get this skill."

I am 100% okay with being that asshole, not about gendered stuff nec but about the idea of practical utility in general. People who don't know how to do everyday things that need doing...eh my patience for that is v short. My roommate is one of them, this causes me some domestic distress pretty much weekly.

maybe she looks down on you for stuff she can do and you can't? some people are just bad at practical shit. who gives a shit whether someone can hang drywall or make a pie crust?

ftr I am not sure that "making a pie crust" is actually a practical skill