recommend me some essential graphic novels to acquire

these are some of my faves off the top of my head

xpost: dans got good taste as per.

More recently... Check out some Grant Morrison stuff if you want to feel all weird-sexy-crazy-cool. "The Invisibles" kicked my ass, and "The Filth" is so strange and disgusting it crawls. It's also cool. "Transmetropolitan" is half-recommended as well, though I may not like it as much as I should just because Warren Ellis is such a pompous, asshat, "look at me I'm so twisted" prick. But then I guess all comics writers are.

My man at the moment is Brian Azarello. "100 Bullets" is top shelf. Seriously. Do not miss it.

I guess Chris Ware is an emoboy, but he's so good at it you forgive him. "Jimmy Corrigan" is pretty fucking brilliant. You'll stare at some of the pages for ten minutes. Then you'll have a cry.

Preacher's good if you like snappy dialogue, sick jokes, lots of violence, and somewhat dubious politics.

and for emoboys, The Sands by Tom Hart.

Chris Ware's storytelling needs to catch up to his visual inventiveness, artistic talent, structural genius etc etc.

This was the first comic book I remember ever being referred to as a "graphic novel". It's his power bands....they gave him cancer, just so ya know.

Garth Ennis writes, John Constantine gets cancer in an insultingly ordinary way. Classic.

Wooden lies!

I can see how you could get this idea if you've only read a few of them, but really the entire series is one grand, and very satisfying, story arc. Probably about 60% of the issues contribute to it. It's good election year reading, too. There need to be more political comics!

Well, yeah. It's just me, I know. I don't go to comics to see people being sensitive. Combine that with a lot of the genuinely whiny crap that has been selling at the comic store lately, and I guess I'm just not able to appreciate "Blankets" for what it is. It might be Stevie Ray Vaughn, but white-boy blues gets on my nerves in general, you know?

With the exception of Chris Ware, who is the exception the proves the rule. Besides, he's less whiny than just flat out fucking depressing.

okay, these are actually trade paperbacks, but oh well.

my picks (mostly seconded from above) would be, Watchmen, Sin City, Dark Knight Returns (but not the second one), Top10 (all 12 issues are collected in 2 volumes), Batman Year One, Arkham Asylum, Elektra Assassin, Plastic Forks (probably impossible to find now) and any of the Concrete collected issues.

new Dave Gibbons hardback, The Originals, out this month btw, looks great but is about Mods. http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13693

No offense, but that's nonsense. Hellblazer's had a dozen writers over 200 issues, some of whom (Paul Jenkins, I'm looking at you) only served to tie up loose ends from three or four writers ignoring and rewriting each others work. And there's at least one (self-contained) Sandman collection where it's clear that Neil Gaiman doesn't really have a grand concpetion of where he's going.

actually, yes, Hellblazer wasn't a good example as it does seem to have self-contained 4 or 5 issue storylines. but, given that there are 200 issues available now, which one do you pick? i'd much rather buy something that contained all 12 issues of something that was planned as 12 issues, that had a beginning, a middle and an end, than something that was just a snippet of a much bigger thing. that was my point, stated badly 8)

My other recommendation is for him to ask what his hipster ex-roommate reads, then avoid that, but then I hate emocomics.

i would recomend "lone wolf and cub" as well but thats a lot of paper to buy. so better stick with "the legend of kamui" by sanpei shirato which is drawn in similar style but is moer concise and dramatic. and has girls.

plenty of good titles listed.

Grendel, Black White & Red is another

In 7th grade I thought that 4-volume original Elfquest stuff was the shit! Made me have funny feelings about...things.

for non-indie stuff, Sandman seconded, I devoured the whole series in a three month jag, probably read it too quickly. There are lulls in it but on the whole it's staggering. I'm not big on Gaiman when he gets too twee or clever but he's in check most of the time in the series. The early Hellblazer stories are pretty good but it lost focus and became uninteresting to me quickly. I hate, hate, hate Preacher. The Invisibles was pretty good but I never got the desire to finish it after a point. You can't go wrong with Watchmen (most Moore stuff is pretty good, even the recent things; Top 10 was cool, Tomorrow Stories was fun; Promethea was great up to the point where it didn't seem like a story was ever really going to happen, it seems like it was just an extended character sketch), and From Hell is brilliant. the Moore Swamp Thing stories are collected now and are really good too.

omg youre right! i thouhgt this was all the kamui there was.

(yay magick comix)

Still, some arcs or mini-series are clearly meant to be of a piece, and just happen to be released in issues first (like the first Kabuki collection?). There's also the phenomenon of "writing for the trade", the same as filming for the dvd I guess.

The Diary of a Teenage Girl - Phoebe Gloeckner
Epileptic - David B.
Summer Blonde - Adrian Tomine
I Never Liked You - Chester Brown

I understand the Blankets backlash but I think that there is something rich being uncovered throughout the story in the religious overtones. Like jaymc says, there's a lot that you don't catch visually the first time through that adds a very sophisticated counter-element to the plot. That said, I totally understand why someone would not want to read about sad teenage boy nostalgia.

I didn't like Tomine untill recently when I gave him another chance w/ Summer Blonde and loved it. A few weeks ago I was at a party of like 8 people, me and 3 others in the living room, then 4 people in the hallway who left after an hour. I was like hey who was that? And my friend was like, that was Adrian Tomine, and I was like WHY THE HELL DIDN'T YOU INTRODUCE ME!!!!

Phoebe Gloeckner's work is amazing.

Tomine is great but I fear he is becoming predictable.

I don't!

It's issues #5-8 of Optic Nerve (I think). But it's where he really hits his stride.

I thought the original Aliens V Predator story was a good book too, the one set in the futuristic farming ranch, again delicous artwork.

Arkham Asylum was okay with some great character designs but I felt it weakened towards the end.

Is that the one where the Japanese woman joins the Predator tribe? If so, god, I read that as a kid and I've been looking for it for ages. It's got to be out of print.

And one more Alan Moore not mentioned so far: Skizz

(maybe you couldn't make it look more better)

Or American Splendor by Harvey Pekar. Drawn by Crumb.

Sacco is brilliant.

Love and Rockets received numerous props upthread. I've been reading it since issue 18.

Gilbert Hernandez is a nightmare, he's been working on a soap opera of a story involving the same characters since 1982/83. I'd say, just go out and buy the Palomar book, then the Poison River collection, which is not contained in the book frustratingly, because it contains essential flashback/back-story about Luba. Read that last.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1560975393/qid=1097273528/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/103-9932494-7466215?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1560971517/qid=1097273558/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/103-9932494-7466215?v=glance&s=books

Hey! my amazon review is up there!

Burns's art is beautiful, but his stories don't amount to all that much, for me. I've not read Black Hole.

GNs/albums/TPBs I've been spending money on lately: various Bendis things (I'm enjoying the Daredevil ones especially) and Phoenix (my single highest GN recommendation) and Astro Boy by Osamu Tezuka.

Oh well, for the record, my favourite comics (available in handy book format - I was gonna get all pedantic about the TPB/GN thing):

* It's A Good Life If You Don't Weaken - Seth
* Like A Velvet Glove Cast In Iron - Clowes
* The Poor Bastard - Joe Matt
* Uncanny X-men - Dark Phoenix Saga
* Quit Your Job - James Kochalka
* American Elf - James Kochalka
* Dark Knight Returns - Miller, Janson, Varley
* Lum: Uruseia Yatsura Perfect Collection - Rumiko Takahashi
* Summer of Love - Debbie Drechsler
* Star Wars: Dark Empire - Veitch, Kennedy
* The 3 X-Statix books collected so far.

If you want to read good, non-twee, non-artsy comics about relationships and everyday human intreaction, I'd suggest you grab anything by Claire Bretécher or Ralf König. The latter writes about gay men in Germany, but his themes are mostly universal.

Howard Cruse's "Stuck Rubber Baby" is one of the best American graphic novels of the recent years, it links the civil right struggles of black people in the early sixties to gay issues. Cruse's characterisation is deep and emphatic, and the whole book has sort of a "this really happened" feel, partly because it's based on his own experiences.

For a wonderful blend of cynical humour and women's issues, you should check out Roberta McGregory's "Naughty Bits/Bitchy Bitch". Another great comic dealing with feminist issues as well as everyday lesbian life is Alison Bechdel's "Dykes To Watch Out For.".

Will Eisner has also published several wonderful, deeply humanist graphic novels, most of which take place in the depression-era New York of thirties. My particular favourite is "Life Force".

Both really great, I agree.

"So what's for dinner?"

"Szechuan vegetarian PULP!"

So if you were turned off by older Burns stuff, really give Black Hole a chance, it is super creepy and wonderful.

Stuck Rubber Baby is great, and while speakng of Charles Burns and non-superhero comics, his recent Louis Reil is fantastic.

Which reminds me: is his Underground still going? It was great, and his version of the New Testament in the back no less so.

1) That's the thing about a lot of the comics mentioned, they're mostly liked by people who "don't read comics all that much". Which is why some comics fans get chips on their shoulders regarding comics that have come to save us (even if they're really good, like Maus). Imagine if newspapers started writing articles about "Radiohead: music isn't just for kids any more". Okay, that is regularly the subtext, but imagine if it was the headline :)

2) I think pretty much anyone on ILC (which is hardly packed full of Comic Book Guys by any standards) would agree that this is a shame, that there should be a lot less superhero comics, written by people who can do them well (instead of just exercising trademarks) (note: well does not necessarily mean tastefully or sensibly), and more comics about everything else. That people who want to write a soap opera about young people falling in love shouldn't have to stick them in spandex to earn enough to live. But that's not how things are.

And now some rantings by Warren Ellis:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/columns/index.cgi?column=1

But it's always been fits and starts for me, not anything like continuity, and while there is much that I'm impressed by that I encounter randomly, in my case three other fields -- music, books and movies -- capture my interest and my desire to talk about them much more constantly and readily. So for instance at the same time in the late eighties I was learning about the troika I was spending infinitely more time chasing down obscurities in the KLA archives at UCLA and discovering new music by the day and spending all my free cash on new CDs and so forth. That's where the focus was and while things have changed it is arguably where the focus still is for me to a large degree.

But there are a lot of comics about "everything else", it's just that they aren't discussed in ILC. I haven't seen any threads there on Hugo Pratt or Claire Bretécher or Roberta McGregory, not even on Will Eisner! From what I gather, most of the ILCers realize these "other" comics exist, but many people don't bother trying to look for them, they're quite content with the spandex stuff. I started a "your favourite gay comics" thread there thinking *that* wouldn't lead people talking about superheroes - but it did.

Not by comparison. Not outside of this magical world, this "Fin-land" :)

most of the ILCers realize these "other" comics exist, but many people don't bother trying to look for them, they're quite content with the spandex stuff.

Hmm. You seem to be slipping into the same error as people who assume that if radio stations played Grime/Jazz/Peruvian Nose Flute as much as it did pop, then it would sell in the same volume. It's possible, in fact likely, that they looked around for them and didn't like it.

(also bad things are easier to talk about than good)

I visited ILC once or twice and went off on a few subjects you may find interesting:

New Eightball Noise!

Not by comparison. Not outside of this magical world, this "Fin-land" :)

I'm pretty sure that if you counted all the comic titles that appear throughout the world, superheroes would loose 100-1. I admit that this is different in the Anglo-Saxon world most of you inhabit, but there's still tons of good non-superhero stuff written in and translated to English. I should know it, because I read a lot of English translations of non-English comics, not being able to read French/Italian/Japanese/etc.

most of the ILCers realize these "other" comics exist, but many people don't bother trying to look for them, they're quite content with the spandex stuff.

Hmm. You seem to be slipping into the same error as people who assume that if radio stations played Grime/Jazz/Peruvian Nose Flute as much as it did pop, then it would sell in the same volume. It's possible, in fact likely, that they looked around for them and didn't like it.

But you yourself said that "I think pretty much anyone on ILC.. would agree that this is a shame, that there should be a lot less superhero comics, written by people who can do them well.., and more comics about everything else". As for myself, I can't imagine why someone would like only superhero comics but not anything else. It's like watching only soap operas and sitcoms but hating films.

OMG TEP IS REALLY NEIL TENNANT

1) The superhero genre provides the bulk of comic books in the U.S. and probably Canada and the UK, whether this accords to your intuition or not.

2) Dan and I, for starters, have explained on multiple threads you've read that our preference for superhero comics stems largely from an interest in the genre itself, beyond the medium: and that that genre simply isn't represented elsewhere except in adaptations. This isn't a desire to read that genre to the exclusion of others, as we've explicitly pointed out; I read more books, and watch more movies, than I read comics.

3) As has been pointed out here and elsewhere, there is a large segment of People Who Read Comic Books who don't identify as comics fans and wouldn't be drawn to I Love Comics.

4) Comics readership being what it is in the English-speaking world, complaining that comics readers talk about superheroes is like complaining television watchers talk about network television. It's the common denominator, the available shared experience. That's been pointed out on other threads, too. Are the X-Men my favorite damn thing in comics? No, nowhere near, but I've probably typed more about the X-Men on ILC than any other group of characters, because there's more conversation I can have about them -- they've been around a long time, they've enjoyed long stretches of popularity, and there's a greater chance another poster and I will have read the same story -- or know of it -- than there is with many other titles.

5) I'm not even going to bother getting much into the issue of "is there more to say about pie than cake?", but a great many of the conversations on ILC have taken place around -- not about -- specific titles, in a way that can't happen naturally when the subject doesn't happen to be characters with an extraordinary pagecount to their presence, and multiple adaptations into other media.

Two posters who are both reasonably familiar with the X-Men and Why I Hate Saturn can have a much longer conversation, with more side-roads, about the X-Men than they can about WIHS. That's not even preference, that's just math.

In 7th grade I thought that 4-volume original Elfquest stuff was the shit! Made me have funny feelings about...things.

-- andrew m.

Errk. I saw the entire collected Elfquest on my shelves on a visit to my mum's this past weekend and felt almost guilty at the amount of attention I lavished on them back in the day. They are pretty, though.

Ha ha ha, me to thread! Anyway, yeah, I love love love Roman Dirge, and I think James Kochalka is awesome, but aside from that... ugh. I go into comic book stores (to look for anything Dirge/Kochalka-related, obv) and I peruse the aisles and there is no way I could ever get into a lot of what's out there, purely because I don't get the whole spandex-clad superheroes thing. Because of that, I think I'm perfectly entitled to call myself a Dirge fan or a Kochalka fan, but not a comic books fan. (Ergo, no involvement in ILC.)

i think the superheroes thing is a American / English thing and that a lot of mainland europe is the same as finland (he says, thinking of moebius and aragones and, er, others...).

there is (was?) a comic shop in nottingham called Page 45 which made a point of downplaying the superhero thing and put all the 'european' graphic novels by the door to try and look more like a usual bookshop (it figured that the fanboy market was only so big and getting normal people into their shop was a good idea). seems to have worked. http://www.page45.couk.com/P45main.html

Thanks for always sounding reasonable when I'm being cranky. It's just one of those things, when you come down to it. The comics situation in the US, and I think Canada/UK (I keep disclaiming my statements about the non-American English-speaking comics world because there are some differences that are significant to me, but maybe only in that "clementine vs minneola" way, where you're still talking about oranges), is culturally complex, for better and worse.

only if japanese superheroes dont count.

I am a rookie graphic novel reader, but I just picked up Fun Home and it was impossible to put down. Can someone either recommend me a good compilation of Dykes to Watch Out For or another good, comparable graphic novel?

Stuck Rubber Baby by Howard Cruse

FUN HOME was great, wasn't it? I have to say, though, if I'd have known it was by the author of "Dykes to Watch Out For" (I didn't make the connection), I may not have picked it up. DTWOF is more like a daily strip...I guess the closest comparison would be Doonesbury or Boondocks, but with much busier panels and way less funnies. It made me think, "Man, I don't want to be a lesbian, all politics 24/7 and no sexy." (Not true, of course, iRL, but not untrue.)

Another good autobio-thing would be Persepolis I and II, pretty similar in impact. I find a lot of autobio comics are kind of embarrassing "my first relationship in high school was awkward" kind of thing, if only bcz the newer generation of their authors are college-aged or generally pretty young, not a lot of auto to bio about. In spite of that "Blankets" pulls off that template pretty well & has very nice art.

You'd probably enjoy Harvey Pekar's "American Splendor" collections. Lotsa good recs upthread, too.

xposty

Avoid "Strangers in Paradise" at all costs; just thinking about that shit makes me want to give the guy Ben & Jerry's enemas until he dies of reverse dairy vomit.

What is Persepolis about, roughly?

It's about her growing up in Iran during the Islamic revolution, and her family and basic life. First one is approx. first ten years of her life and second one is maybe age 10-25. Really fucking splendid memoirs and not really "struggle" tales like I'd expect from that kind of a description.

That sounds great. I think I'll blow some loan money on Persepolis I and Maus, based on several recommendations above. Maybe Watchmen as well. Based on the Amazon description, Watchmen sounds a little...superhero based. It revolves around former "Crimebusters"? I think I may have to skip out on that for now.

Watchmen... superhero based... oh man, I don't even know where to start with that statement.

I liked Watchmen but I found it much easier to approach after reading Alan Moore's "Tomorrow Stores," which is stories about a boy genius, a '40s-type superheroine, and other tongue-in-cheek figures. It's got four stories a few pages long each book (more in the graphic novel compendiums, obviously), and they've got the same cleverness/great storytelling of the Watchmen, but without feeling unapproachable. Watchmen's treated so reverentially these days.

ZS, basically Watchmen is a deconstruction of superheroes and the comic book medium and 80s politics and all sorts of whatever the hell else happened to pop into Alan Moore's head. It's brilliant, and it does involve superheroes, but not the superheroes that I suspect you don't like.

I think my friend put it best when he said "Alan Moore's the sort of guy who has 25 years worth of newspapers in his closet."

Also, I cannot recommend Gotham Central highly enough. Absolutely fantastic read. Greg Rucka has to be my favorite current writer. Just really great police procedural stories, with believable regular people stuck in a world created for irregular people.

In addition to the above: the graphic adaptation of Paul Auster's "City of Glass" is one of my favorites ever. "Capote in Kansas" is also v v good. Not to stray too far from the "self-contained book" topic, buuuuut....

Gotham Central most def, POWERS is a must, The Walking Dead is worth getting into.

Walking Dead seconded. Not a pleasurable moment reading it, due to the fact near every page is a cliffhanger, but it's excellent. DMZ is also worth checking out, too.

epileptic by david B
wimbledon green by seth
black hole by charles burns

American Psycho is pretty graphic, as novels go.

Seriously, though. It's difficult to recommend comics to an altogether new reader. Foremost reason being that comics require a different kind of literacy than regular books do. I've tried introducing comics to a number of people who had never read them before, and they often have difficulty getting into them. Not because of content or quality necessarily but because they just aren't used to the form.

With that in mind, I'd feel compelled to avoid recommending anything that wasn't made by a competent draftsman/storyteller. I turned someone onto to New X-Men briefly, but she immediately lost interest once Quitely left. So maybe the first collection of All-Star Superman would be a good place to start.

Although ASS is a good starter superhero comic (as it requires pretty much nothing in the way of foreknowledge of the characters or themes), most superhero stuff is way too mired in years of continuity to recommend to newcomers. So that's another obstacle. Because most of the stuff I personally like the most is mainstream stuff. But there are a few good, relatively self-contained titles out there for beginners.

I guess, given the above criteria, I would recommend The Frank Book, Sleeper, Rick Veitch's Rare Bit Fiends collections, the new Love and Rockets collections, From Hell, Milligan's X-Force/X-Statix, Stray Bullets, and, for the person who's never looked at a comic book before, Understanding Comics ain't a bad place to start.

One ongoing title I'm really enjoying is The Boys, a couple of steps farther out on the superheroes-in-the-real-world branch from Watchmen, and with a lot more cynicism and black humor. (DC got cold feet and pushed it to another publisher after a gerbil-up-the-ass scene.) I think the trade paperback of the first few issues is just out, or about to come out.

Although ASS is a good starter superhero comic (as it requires pretty much nothing in the way of foreknowledge of the characters or themes), most superhero stuff is way too mired in years of continuity to recommend to newcomers.

I'm not sure I agree with that assessment of ASS -- it can be read on the surface without much knowledge of Superman mythos, but if you only give it that surface reading, it's merely an okay comic book. It's a brilliant comic for people who have really internalized decades of Superman stories.

Yeah, you know, I've never really been interested in Watchmen for the same reason: it's supposed to be this marvelous deconstruction of superheroes, but I don't have much experience with superheroes in the first place that warrants deconstructing.

Which is exactly why I don't understand Watchmen's position as Standard Introductory Comic.

Maybe the Silver-Age Marvel Essentials trades are a good place to start if you're a new reader and interested in getting into superheroes. Although I've started reading that early stuff and it's mostly kinda dire for the first couple of years.

you can wind up blowing LOTS of money on graphic novels/nu-comix. I certainly did for a few years. so addictive. I had to stop. everytime a thread like this comes up it makes me want to blow $100 at the comic store down the street.

Well, fortunately for you, the entirety of western civilization is now available for illegal download.

At this point, that barely seems like an exaggeration.

I wouldn't recommend Watchmen to someone new to comics.

"The Last Man" is awesome, although I have to admit I don't like the idea of paying $10 for every book in the series.

Graphic novels are awesome.

I'm lucky in that my public library gets in like 90% of the graphic novels I've ever heard of.

Also, what is ASS? That's an acronym, right?

NEW YORK—Publisher Alfred A. Knopf, Inc. released a new Archie Comics graphic novel Tuesday, Heavy Is The Head That Wears The Crown, an examination of the complex inner workings of longtime Archie compatriot Forsythe "Jughead" Jones. "Readers will be fascinated by Forsythe's agonizing realization that his love of food was really just a substitute for loving himself, something he deems impossible due to his guilt over the premature death of his baby sister, Forsythia, and the predatory sexual overtures he suffers at the hands of Mr. Flutesnoot," author and cartoonist Adrian Tomine said. "The poignancy is further emphasized by the glimpses of Forsythe's future, as a divorced, self-doubting, alcoholic psychiatrist with an uncontrollable weight problem." A Knopf spokesman rejected allegations that the novel is nothing more than an apologia for the character's misogyny, saying that readers "will find the truth is rather more complicated."

ASS = All Star Superman. It was named in full when Deric first cited it.

While I agree that Watchmen isn't a good introduction to "serious" comics for someone who's neve read comics, I don't think the main problem for the ininitiated is that it is a "deconstruction of the superhero genre". This deconstruction isn't even the biggest theme in the comic, more important is Moore deconstruction of American politics of the era, and how the superheroes in the story stand in as symbols and vehicles of those politics. So anyone who has a basic knowledge of what superheroes are can understand that part. I think the harder thing is that Watchmen is so loaded with comic (meta)narrative tricks and techniques that it almost becomes saturated with them. So anyone who doesn't fully understand the language of comics is bound to miss the ridiculous amount of details Moore and Gibbons have put to Watchmen.

To take just one minor detail: the speech bubbles in the story change throughout the different decades it depicts, so the softer, more round bubbles of the 40's gradually become the sharper, more angular bubbles of the 80's. I think I'd read the comic four times before I even noticed this.

xpost

Just on Watchmen, I think it would work well as an early introduction to comics because it has nice art, interesting characters, and a multilayered narrative. I can't see the superhero thing being that much of a problem. Everyone is dimly aware of superheroes, but you don't have to read much of Watchmen to gather that this is not zap! bang! pow! territory.

and just on Tuomas' point about Watchmen metanarratice tricks etc.: it was probably ten years after reading Watchmen that I noticed any of theses, so I wouldn't worry about it.

xpost xpost and I've never noticed that thing about the speech bubbles... must go and re-read Watchmen. Why does all that kind of stuff count as something that makes Watchmen bad for new readers if most people never notice it?

tell me more watchmen metanarrative tricks i have a copy in my hand right now

Those comics by Joe Sacco ("Palestine", "Safe Area Gorazde", "The Fixer", and so on) are all entertaining and probably easy enough for a new reader, even if they are part of that ultimately problematic world of autobiographical comics.

I don't think it's the multilayered narrative aspect that would keep me from recommending Watchmen to a newcomer, it's the length. If they're really a newcomer to the comics form, I would start with a good anthology title with a wide variety of wrwiting and art styles, linear and nonlinear storytelling, humor and serious stories, etc. Specifically, the A1 anthology from Atomeka in 1989-1992. After they picked and chose their way through those six issues, I'd say "what worked for you and what didn't?" and give further recommendations from there.

I don't know. These new readers. We have to do everything for them, and what do we get back?

Coupons for free sexual favors?

also, I'd highly recommend "Understanding Comics" by Scott McCloud. The sequel to that is good, too.

I've always stayed away from that, on the basis that I don't need some know-all telling me how to understand comics. But maybe it is good for people who are new to the game.

I love Watchmen, I want to hear more of these metanarrative tricks too!

Understanding Comics is a good read for all people interested in comics as a medium. A lot of talk about the underlying structure of comics and whatnot. It's not altogether un-flawed, but it's interesting. And it's something that 90% of mainstream comics artists could highly benefit from reading and internalizing (insofar as learning to effectively tell a story with pictures is concerned).

Art classes would probably help them, as well.

You should read that book Vicar. It's fascinating, it's kind of layman's book but really some nice thinking and and an arty (comic!) approach that works much better than you would imagine. When you read that book you sort of start to realize the untapped potential of comics. Douglas Wolk, who posts around here from time to time, has a new book about comics that is good but it really just doesn't resonate like McCloud's does.

I thought I had posted to this thread a long time ago, but upon quickly browsing I can't see that I have...

Superhero:
Dan Slott's first volume of She-Hulk. (and he's going to be writing Amazing Spiderman Soon I think I read?)
Brubaker's Captain America.
Morrison's X-Men (Whedon's is alright too, but not as radical or innovative in terms of characterization, and not as densely plotted.) Also Morrison's Invisibles, Animal Man and Doom Patrol.
Moore's Swamp Thing, Tom Strong and, yes, Watchmen.
I'm NOT a huge Brian Michael Bendis fan, but I find his best work to be Daredevil (later continued by the maybe even better Brubaker) and also Ultimate Spiderman. I found Powers boring.
I think Batman Year One is better than Dark Knight Returns.
Marvel Essential Dr. Strange & X-Men volumes (with X-Men maybe start with the 2nd one, as the first isn't quite as excellent.)
All Star Superman (more Morrison.)
Warren Ellis's Ultimate Fantastic Four.

Non-Superhero:
Cerebus (at least through the first six volumes or so. Becomes increasingly bizarre thereafter with a lot of elements that are, let's say, non-Tuomas friendly.)
Fell by Warren Ellis (starts off great, losing a bit of steam recently in favor of lots of interrogation/talk-down kinda stuff. But worth reading, definitely.)
Gotham Central--I echo all recommendations of this. Volumes 1-3 especially, but it's all worth reading if you like those.
Tintin (In Tibet, The Calculus Affair, etc.)
We3 by Grant Morrison (animals!)
Planetary by Warren Ellis, also.
Gary Panter action. Jimbo in Purgatory = gorgeous, agreed.
Brian Chippendale's "Ninja." (mindblowing stuff, and I'm not just saying that as a Providence apologist/fanboy.)
Walking Dead loses a little steam when they first find the prison, but only wallows in soap opera territory briefly.
all the volumes of Kramer's Ergot I've been able to get my hands on have been fantastic. Various creator anthologies of alternative/psychedelic/indie comics (Panter, Chippenale, CF, Leif Goldberg, Elvis Studios, Matt Brinkman, and, oh, craploads of people whose names aren't coming to me right now. The guy who does the super-dense mutant/head/object conglomeration stuff; the Jimmy Corrigan guy... (who i don't really like)... uh, you know, and so on. Each volume is like 25 or 30 bucks but absolutely worth it.)
I'm blanking on the name of the writer/artist right now but 1-800-MICE has been cool. Dude's also been featured in Kramer's Ergot.
EC anthologies, especially the sci-fi ones. The horror books (Tales From The Crypt) always get the most recognition, it seems, but the sci-fi ones always got me more. Ray Bradbury did the plotting for a bunch of em.
Pekar & Crumb's "American Splendor" is good. A contemporary of theirs, Rory Hayes, has done a bunch of awesome stuff with psychedelic monsters and amorphous bodies and shit. Way rad.

I do not like Adrian Tomine. Or Jeffrey Brown, really, though "Be A Man" was kind of funny.

The guy who does the super-dense mutant/head/object conglomeration stuff
^ marc bell

Stuff I like that I don't think was mentioned above:

Superhero:
Kingdom Come
Marvels
Superman: Birthright
JLA: Tower of Babel
Batman: the Long Halloween, Dark Victory

Other:
The Middleman (I prefer volume 1, but they're both good)
Flight (all of these are pretty great)
Daisy Kutter: the Last Train
Whiteout (Rucka again)
Danger Girl
Hopeless Savages

Umm...

Was everything in my list mentioned above? It's possible.

"Man, I don't want to be a lesbian, all politics 24/7 and no sexy."

Yeah but the strip is making fun of Mo for that...

Confidential to jaymc: You would probably really like Watchmen.

Nope. They weren't. I don't know if all of them are "essential," per se, but a few of them definitely are.

I'm glad to see a couple of mentions now of David B.'s Epileptic

It is a graphic NOVEL in the geuine sense of the word, a huge, moving story with the most incredible graphics ever. I cried and cried at the end of it. I recommend it very highly.

Cerebus (at least through the first six volumes or so. Becomes increasingly bizarre thereafter with a lot of elements that are, let's say, non-Tuomas friendly.)

I saw this the other day and didn't pick it up cause I couldn't discern wtf was going on and there wasn't any kind of plot indicator on the book itself.

WTF is the plot of Cerebus?

There is an earthpig who is a barbarian. Then he gets into politics. Then he gets into religion. Then he goes to the moon and is told he will die alone and unloved. Then he goes back to earth and mopes. Then Oscar Wilde dies. Then the earthpig goes on a years long drinking spree. Then Dave Sim loses his mind and makes the book nigh-unreadable.

Between the politics and the drinking spree, it's really some of the best stuff there is.

I'm not an expert by ANY MEANS but I can vouch for a lot of the novels mentioned.

Currently enjoying Lady Snowblood immensely. Someone (on Librarything) said it was a guilty pleasure?!? Dude must have high standards, cause I think it's not really a guilty pleasure. Guess he thinks the nekkidness is a bit of GP or something. I love it because of the nakedness (duh!) but also because of the Japanese culture/history.

DMZ definitely seconded.

what about Seaguy? why is no one mentioning this?

I hated Seaguy.

But for people who like it a little rough, may I recommend Miller/Darrow's Hard Boiled.

yeah, i mentioned that upthread, especially re: the artwork. Amazing stuff.

> Currently enjoying Lady Snowblood immensely.

same writer as the (7000 page) Lone Wolf and Cub (am currently on book 6 of 28), Samurai Executioner, Crying Freeman et al - Kazuo Koike

spent the weekend re-reading Optic Nerve. am always annoyed with it when i finish any of the stories in a 'what happens next, i want to know' kind of way.

Seaguy's alright, but it's NOT morrison's finest work by any means. this may be because its lifespan was cut short and it remains unfinished.

Seaguy is pretty weird and sorta halfway there - I enjoyed it, but for anyone unfamiliar with comics it will be a total headscratcher.

Adrian Tomine is fucking horrible

re: Cerebus - the plot is really convoluted and will be impossible to follow if you start anywhere after High Society (Book 2, which is really where it starts to get interesting). The THEME of it, however, is generally power - the different forms of it, what it does to people, and how it is used. The rest is details (and yes, Sim did totally lose his mind - and the plot - somewhere around Book 9, altho there is still a fair amount of totally amazing artwork that followed)

Cerebus is also a kind of record/landmark in that it is the longest-running comic book penned (and written) by a single artist - it is the single largest graphic novel ever undertaken and completed, and encompasses (at various points) virtually the entire language and creative spectrum of comics.

Minor quibble: Gherard's backdrops are just as important as Sim's illustrations in terms of the book's general ambience.

i've avoided cerebus b/c i heard it was terribly misogynistic. should i get over that & read it anyway?

re: Gerhard, no argument there!

re: mysogny - it is quite clear in the book when Sim's mysogyny comes to the fore, and its somewhere around Book 8 or 9, I forget. Up to that point there's plenty about sexual politics, but nothing that makes it unreadable or inherently offensive. Its when Sim starts to speak - directly to the reader and practically out of nowhere - about how women control everything and men are all victims of their evil predatory ways that it goes to shit.

(I should point out that before then there was quite a lot of interesting explorations about gender and power and feminism and political-religious hierarchies and whatnot - its when Sim gets all pedantic and really antagonistic that it starts to hamper and poison his work)

also: the irony of such a gargantuan achievement in the medium being a deeply mysogynistic and basically "I SCARED OF GURLS" screed should be self-evident, particularly when one considers the traditional target audience of comics (awkward adolescent boys)

I'll second Ellis' UFF big time--it's my go-to book for introducing people to superhero comics. I think any of the better-written books from the Ultimate series is a good choice, if only because you aren't going to have to sit someone down and explain backstory for 90 hours.

Also:
Whedon's X-Men
that one Iron Man reboot-thing that was really good until Civil War started.
BPRD/Hellboy
The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen for some people :D
Love & Rockets
Maybe The Maxx, it could possibly make someone hate comics forever.
Certain arcs of Constantine maybe.
Preacher
Transmetropolitan
Batman: Year One

I would NEVER try to intro someone to comics via:
Sandman
From Hell

I think Watchmen is the kind of book that you can go back to and get something different from several times. It'd be cool to read it as "just" a comic book; the story's good, the characters are interesting. So in that respect it's fine to show it to someone who hasn't read a lot of comics. On the other hand, it would definitely warrant a revisiting after you've earned your comic book big boy britches.

I think From Hell would be good for somone who wanted to read "graphic novels" not "comic books". Sure it's hardly light reading - it's the equivalent of the big weighty serious novel, so for someone into them it could be ideal.

man fuck that person.

So noone likes Lady Snowblood? Koogs, back me up here! :-)

I agree with Ledge, fwiw.

hirded. From Hell is great, but is more of an investment of time than anything else with drawings in it, possibly.

Yeah, From Hell is, IMO, a much better introduction than Watchmen, at least insofar as it's not laden with Comics Baggage. On certain days, I'd argue that it's a better work than Watchmen.

And Preacher: no. No no no. Unless the person you're introducing comics to is a college freshman who's all about "EDGY", no. It is by far a more juvenile work than a lot of mainstream superhero stuff.

Ledge is definitely right, but at the same time that person isn't going to ever become someone who reads a lot of comics, are they? They'll read From Hell and Cerebus and maybe Sandman and whatever coming-of-age b&w book Salon is pushing, but they aren't going to become a fan of comic books.

That's really the issue with introducing people to comics by way of quality indie stuff. There just isn't enough of it out there to sustain a person and make them a true Comix Fan if that's all they read.

From Hell is definitely a superior work to Watchmen

Agreed, I'd argue that any day. From Hell is amazing in an obsessive, painstaking way. I wonder if he was doing a lot of speed when he wrote it.

I think some people on this thread might be surprised how well Watchmen still works even if you don't really care about or are aware of the comics-baggage issues going on in it.

I can't make myself unaware of them, so I'm not sure how I could verify that... on one level I think Watchmen's inferiority to From Hell is specifically due to all its superhero-comic-book baggage: on the one hand its amazing to see such a humanistic deconstruction of the genre, but on the other its impact is limited because the story is constrained within those reference points to a large degree. From Hell, by contrast, is just a great story, well-written and painstakingly executed, about much larger and more universal themes and issues and goes DEEP into human culture and the psychology of evil in a way that just isn't possible within the confines of a conventional superhero story (however meta that story is).

I dunno, I think Watchmen is more entertaining and an easier read, and therefore I prefer it. From Hell is admirable for its attention to detail and obsessive exploration of a story, but frankly, it's kind of boring.

rong.

kind of boring = needed more fight scenes?

how about a carchase?

Yes, because Watchmen was so shallow and action-oriented.

I thought From Hell was fantastic. But then I am not a "real" comics fan, since I've only read stuff by Dan Clowes, Adrian Tomine, Chester Brown, Jeffrey Brown, Jessica Abel, Ariel Schrag, Craig Thompson, Charles Burns, Brian K. Vaughan, Art Spiegelman, and Chris Ware, and haven't really wrestled with the whole Alan Moore/Frank Miller/Neil Gaiman/Dave McKean/Grant Morrison branch. There's also some well-respected comics that I just can't get into because I don't like the art.

Oh, I'm not saying From Hell is bad at all. I just prefer Watchmen because I think Watchmen is more readable, and therefore more successful as a book. The fact that half of the From Hell trade consists of appendices, to me, doesn't really make it a super fun read. Very smart, did exactly what it set out to do, not something I'd ever read again.

the whole Alan Moore/Frank Miller/Neil Gaiman/Dave McKean/Grant Morrison branch.

Even though they've all done superhero comics, I think it would be a mistake to think of their work as a "branch."

See, what you call a "humanistic deconstruction of genre", I might call a "deep probe into a set of issues, oh which happen to be the ones that superhero comics have claimed ownership over". And you don't have to be a comics fan to be interested in those issues, or to appreciate Watchmen's take on them. Or the insane level of detail. There's another layer for comics fans, who recognize who Rorschach is a variation of, but that's not actually needed to enjoy the book.

I've said this before, but another reason why I'm not a "real" comics fan is that in my mind, Alex Ross is the classical music critic for the New Yorker and Warren Ellis is the violinist for the Dirty Three.

Even though they've all done superhero comics, I think it would be a mistake to think of their work as a "branch."

I didn't know what else to call it, Rock. It's all stuff that I glanced at after getting into the medium in college and was sort of turned off by the fact that it looked like comic books.

Racist!

I think Chris Ware and Dan Clowes have spent almost as much time deconstructing and playing with classic comic book forms and superheroes as Alan Moore has.

turned off by the fact that it looked like comic books.

I'm not sure where to go with that. Too many primary colors? A lot of the works you've read have been B&W.

Maybe as a percentage of work. But Alan Moore is ridiculously prolific sometimes publishing dozens of books a year, and Ware/Clowes, um, aren't.

(Yes, it's apples and oranges because Moore doesn't draw his own stories. So fucking what?)

i can't believe this thread has gone this long without anyone mentioning SCOTT PILGRIM which might be the best intro to comics ever. this dood scott has a new hot gf and needs to defeat her evil ex bf's for her love nintendo style and is in a punk band called sex bob-omb. they are on book 3 and its awesome. some other stuff i recently read and liked:

http://www.hillcity-comics.com/graphic_novels_2007/new_graphic_novel8330.jpg
WORMWOOD

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/51zyPd08SPL._AA240_.jpg
Batman: Snow

http://www.paneltopanel.net/ezimagecatalogue/catalogue/variations/i1351/1101109-120x160.jpg
A Patch of Dreams

Pizzeria Kamikaze

http://g-ec2.images-amazon.com/images/I/51GBQ7FXE0L._SS500_.jpg

Alan Moore/Frank Miller/Neil Gaiman/Dave McKean/Grant Morrison branch

the difference between these guys and the others you listed is that all of these dudes made their marks working for one of the Big Two (DC or Marvel) and within the context of their intellectual properties. Those other guys are, for the most part, all independent and coming more from the tradition of the underground comics started in the 60s. I can totally see a legitimate delineation between these two camps.

x-post

Just thinking out loud here, not necesarily on any topic... A lot more auteur-type books will be B&W because they're more publishable... i.e., they're not going to sell as many copies as big loud genre and superhero books, but that's okay because they'll break even or make money quicker. "correlation is not causation..."

I'm not sure where to go with that. Too many primary colors? A lot of the works you've read have been B&W.

Maybe, although Ware and Clowes both work in color, and I like their art a lot. (It's clean.) I think lettering has a lot to do with it, too.

ugh well don't get me started about those shitty B&W Marvel bound collections that they churn out. Absolutely horrible - that goes for the B&W reprint of Kirby's New Gods that DC kept in print forever too.

Eternals #1 (Still Only $75!)

Did Chester Brown ever publish a bound collection of his adaptations of the Gospels? I know he didn't finish all of them, but whatever he did finish?

Didn't Morrison get his start on 2000 AD? xxpost

I would actually highly recommend Flight (there are four volumes so far) to people trying to get into non-superhero comics. They're anthologies of stories from different artists loosely based around flight (very loosely), which gives a lot of different choices, the art is for the most part gorgeous, the stories are charming, and they aren't the "precious coming-of-age" tales that make me want to burn all of that crap. Same goes for Daisy Kutter -- just a fantastic story, and the author is a master of using space to both convey movement and mood. I can't recommend either highly enough.

Walking Dead loses a little steam when they first find the prison, but only wallows in soap opera territory briefly.

I welcomed the (short) change of pace at this point! And it didn't last too long, either, which was good.

I should also mention Vic & Blood, one of my most favourite one-off books in recent memory.

Also second Batman: The Long Hallowe'en (I was completely unfamiliar with Batman lore, hadn't even seen the movies, when I read this. It was awesome, and the "plot twist" that everyone ACTUALLY knows because they've read/seen enough Batman stuff to know? Was ACTUALLY a plot twist to me. I was thrilled!)

Loeb and Sale are like the anti-Moore/Gibbons. Not that either one is necessarily better than the other (I enjoy both quite a bit), but they have nice, big panels with plenty of breathing room, and concentrate on telling the story as opposed to trying to make some sort of big intellectual statement.

I agree that Jeff Loeb is the anti-Alan Moore, in as much as Moore is an excellent writer whose future work I look forward to reading.

Didn't Morrison get his start on 2000 AD? xxpost

similar to Moore getting his start at Warrior (I think?) - but that stuff was more of a springboard to working with DC in both cases. British comics are kind of persona non grata in the US.

Also, uh, Douglas's new book to thread.

http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/I/417is2I3IOL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_OU01_AA240_SH20_.jpg

Did Chester Brown ever publish a bound collection of his adaptations of the Gospels? I know he didn't finish all of them, but whatever he did finish?

OH MY I certainly wish, but it hasn't happened. D&Q's been saying for like 4 years they're gonna put Ed the Happy Clown back in print. You'd think with the success of Louis Riel they'd be inspired to revive his older stuff.

I've never bothered with the Louis Riel thing... but I still have my original pressing of Ed the Happy Clown - unfortunately the one with the "revised" ending that deleted a bunch of stuff that appeared in the comics (luckily I have a few of those too).

I thought the only gospel he finished was the Gospel of Mark...? I really liked that - ANGRY JESUS!

I'm not sure where to go with that. Too many primary colors?

Most superhero comic art seems busy (as in "not clean"), loud, brash, and uh anatomically hyperarticulated, all of which are turnoffs for me (and I believe for jaymc).

Though it's not just superhero stuff -- I find, like, Peter Bagge nearly unreadable because his art is so busy and brash (in a somewhat different way than superhero stuff, sure).

Aw, I thing Peter Bagge's art is k-great and fun, but it keeps the man from reading it too.

!!! Bagge's art is great! Oh the many times I patiently copied Buddy Bradley's hideous mug

(I am also a sucker for any artist that uses "BARGE!" as a sound effect)

they reprinted all the ed the happy clowns earlier this year

I'm not saying Bagge's artwork is bad, I'm trying to describe why it prevents me from being able to read his comics.

(I am also a sucker for any artist that uses "BARGE!" as a sound effect)

hahaha, my faves are Matt Feazell's "BRUM" and "ERT" car sfx.

Matt Feazell!! Wow I haven't thought about him in a long time. I always loved his backup strips in Zot.

I love all the Matts. Matt Feazell, Matt Howarth, Matt Wagner, Joe Matt...

Didn't Morrison get his start on 2000 AD?

yes, he wrote "Zenith" for 2000AD, a completely brilliant conjuring into being of a non-existant British superhero mythos. "Zenith" is surely ripe for reprinting in one of those Marvel Essentials knock-offs that 2000AD have been doing lately.

Matt Feazell! I loved "Cynicalman"- 'another day, another .23'

Thx for the tip chaki! About a year ago I got tired of checking the D&Q website for non-lying updates on this.

THE MAN WHO COULDN'T STOP page is like my most favoritiest funniest thing.

dude they are awesome and have about 5 pages of commentary by Brown at the end that shed tons of light on the material and is a v v fun read

I know a special nine-issue treat I'm buying myself.

jaymc, if you think Alan Moore wouldn't be your cup of tea, try A Small Killing. If you think Frank Miller wouldn't be your cup of tea, try Batman: Year One or Give Me Liberty. Ditto ditto Neil Gaiman and/or Dave McKean, try Violent Cases (Gaiman/McKean) or Cages (McKean). If you're wary of Grant Morrison, definitely read WE3.

Why hasn't this thread mentioned Queen & Country?

why hasn't this thread mentioned The Salon, only the single greatest comic book of the year so far???

Yeah, Q&C is really good. I haven't ready any of Rucka's Q&C non-comics novels, though -- are they any good?

Mr Hardy, I am still not convinced by this boosting of "Give Me Liberty", but then I have not read it in years so what would I know.

is that the one illustrated by Dave Gibbons...? Gibbons is great but ugh Miller's pseudo-ironic political posturing stuff is always so annoying to me.

Rucka is the mother@!#$ing man when it comes to crime comics right now, with his only real competition in former collaborator Ed Brubaker. I buy anything I see with either name on it.

Q&C is mostly great, but there are a couple of arcs with art that I can't stand in 'em.

It's probably the weak link in that list, but if you don't go past the first series, it's pretty good. Come to think of it, as crosses of Tony Scott movies and Roadrunner cartoons go, Elektra: Assassin is better. (xpost to DV)

Dude, we need to find out if Amsterdam has any good comic shops.

Elektra: Assassin is funny. But again, would be relatively lame without the fantastic artwork. Man, whatever happened to Sienkewicz?

he was like this great cross between Ralph Steadman and Dave McKean

http://lambiek.net/

Amsterdam have any good comic shops?

YES. Or so the website leads me to believe. I haven't actually been, but I use their comiclopedia all the time.

> Man, whatever happened to Sienkewicz?

Big Numbers #3 broke his mind.

His early "I'm channelling Neal Adams" stuff is as weird to look back at as Barry Smith's early "I'm channelling Jack Kirby" stuff. Boy, did I just date myself.

I need to dredge out my first two issues of Big Numbers one of these days and take another look - see if it's really as great as I remember.

Sienkewicz last seen:
http://www.moonrover.com/mt-static/images/bob_digi.jpg

haha

I've read the Queen and Country novels, but not the graphic novels (although I do have the first volume on my shelf, just haven't gotten to it yet). They're definitely page turners, like pretty much all of his prose novels. What I really like about them is that they aren't adaptations of the comics, or a totally separate series. They're total canon, with big things happening in them that affect the comic series.

> Man, whatever happened to Sienkewicz?

Big Numbers #3 broke his mind.

Big Numbers broke Al Columbia's mind, too (one of my favorite comics stories...):

EASTMAN: ... So we paid Alan to start working on the scripts again, and Bill agreed to do issue #3, and I really hope this is correct because
this one is kinda “gray” for me, but I believe Bill did issue #3, and was doing the covers for #3, #4, and #5. So the ball started rolling
again. Bill was turning in the work. But he stated, and all agreed, he wasn’t going to continue on with the series after that. So we found
Al Columbia, who was Bill’s assistant, and could draw Bill like Bill and would keep the look consistent. We started talking with Al
about stepping in and completing the project. We flew Al to meet Alan. And we got Alan’s approval. We got Bill’s approval, and it
wasn’t an easy thing, Bill was really uncomfortable with it. Understandably so, it’s like having someone else raise your child, but at
the same time, he wasn’t going to do it, and he said, “All right. You know what? Out of respect for Alan, I’ll let Al step in and do this.”
GROTH: Al was Bill’s assistant.
EASTMAN: Al was Bill’s assistant for a period of time. I’m not sure exactly how long. But he had a very similar style to Bill’s.
So we started working with Al on issue #4. By this time Alan was up onto issue #5, script-wise, and Bill had completed the
covers for issues #3, #4, and #5, and Al’s working away on issue #4. To make a long, boring story short, Al took a couple months or so
extra to finish the work, which was okay until he got up to speed.
GROTH: On #4.
EASTMAN: On #4, and the more it went along, Al became more aggravated and started saying that we didn’t really want Al,
we just wanted a Bill clone. Which is the whole point of the whole thing, and I thought was clearly understood. (Groth laughs) It went
all down hill from there, and he kind of got more bizarre towards the end. About the time he turned in all the pages for the work, he
was sitting in Paul’s office. Paul Jenkins was the straw boss on it, and (Columbia) said, “I want to take all the art work home and give
it the final once-over before we send it off to pre-press.” And then we never saw Al again. I had heard through Marc Arsenault, who
was an assistant under Mark Martin in the art department, that he saw Al Columbia tear it up! Then we heard from someone else that
Al said he never tore it up, he’s got it somewhere. And I’m like, “Well, fuck it. I want it.”
GROTH: You paid for it.
EASTMAN: (laughs) I paid for it. I paid not only to have him do the work, but I also paid to buy the original art. I had already
bought a bunch of original art from Al, the same as I was doing with other creators, like Simon Bisley. I was on the one hand, paying
them to create stuff for Tundra to publish, and on the other hand, I was buying the artwork from people that I respected to exhibit in
the Museum. So I lost on both, page rate and page purchase on that one. (Groth laughs) I know I told you this story when we were at
lunch, but I found one tiny little drawing in the studio we provided Al, above Tundra. For the twenty thousand dollars or more I paid
out to Al Columbia on this Big Numbers project, I found one little cut-out drawing of a character that I later glued onto a cover of a
twisted little book I did called Infectious. It’s my twenty thousand dollars worth of Big Numbers, tribute!
GROTH: A twenty thousand dollar Al Columbia drawing?
EASTMAN: My twenty thousand dollar Al Columbia drawing!
GROTH: I think Al told me that Paul Jenkins threatened him with a baseball bat at one point.
EASTMAN: Really? That’s interesting… but, I guess I’m not surprised.
GROTH: Do you know anything about that? (laughs)
EASTMAN: Well, if Paul didn’t, I would have. (Groth laughs) And I better not have a bat close by the next time I see Al, either.
No, only kidding I’ve forgiven him… mostly…
GROTH: So Al just literally vanished with the pages?
EASTMAN: He turned up like three months later working as a hostess —
GROTH: A hostess?
EASTMAN: A host. (laughter)
GROTH: That’s a revelation. He went to Sweden, and then he came back a hostess…
EASTMAN: What do you call somebody that…
GROTH: Maitre’d?
EASTMAN: Maitre’d. Thank you. He used to seat people in a Northampton restaurant called the Brewery. I understand Paul
went into it because he heard that Al was working there. He went in and was like, “Where’s the fucking artwork?” I’m sure Paul
wanted to kill him. Because Paul really worked very, very hard to make that project work, because he loved Alan as a writer, and he
really respected Bill, and Paul is the one that really smoothed everything out and got everybody going on it again.
GROTH: And you never learned, really, why Al did this?
EASTMAN: No. All I can say, towards the end he just used to say, “You want a fucking Sienkiewicz clone, you don’t want
Columbia.” And it’s like “Al, this is why you were fucking brought in, and this is why you agreed to the project. Because you could do
it like Bill. That you could keep it consistent with the first three issues. You were totally into it. It’s not a fantasy we had here. It was
you! (Groth laughs) We paid you, and you accepted the money, and blew it on lingerie to be a hostess.” (laughter) No, no, no… I’m
really kidding this time.
GROTH: Let me get this straight: Bill finished the third issue, and that was never published.
EASTMAN: Yes, I believe that’s correct. I still have all the originals.
GROTH: So why wasn’t that published?
EASTMAN: Why? Because. That’s not fair.

From here.

(have read that before i think, or alan moore's version of it, somewhere. it doesn't actually say why bill stopped though. i went to the signing in a bookshop in northampton. i was 3rd in a queue of three...)

yes, bill's elektra assassin is good. and i always lump it together with ted mckeever's plastic forks (because i was buying them around the same time?). both suffer slightly from the writer = artist thing though (i find that if the writer is also the artist then it doesn't go through that extra level of explanation that is required if writer and artist are different people and which clarifies things for the reader)

http://cgi.ebay.com/AL-COLUMBIA-1992-BIG-NUMBERS-RARE-ART-PRINT-SIENKIEWICZ_W0QQitemZ250156612117QQihZ015QQcategoryZ972QQcmdZViewItem

wikipedia has some 'where are they now' information for bill including

"Sienkiewicz was nominated for an Emmy Award twice, in 1995 and 1996, for his production and character design on Where in the World is Carmen Sandiego?."

!

Rock Hardy, if you like I can email my Dutch cartoonist friend to check if there are any good comic stores. He *might* be able to help you out. Does it have to be in Amsterdam? email me at stevienixed at gmail.com if you need me to contact him and ask about it.

bill's elektra assassin is good. and i always lump it together with ted mckeever's plastic forks (because i was buying them around the same time?). both suffer slightly from the writer = artist thing though (i find that if the writer is also the artist then it doesn't go through that extra level of explanation that is required if writer and artist are different people and which clarifies things for the reader)

Frank Miller wrote Elektra Assassin. (You might be thinking of Stray Toasters.)

I can't make myself unaware of them, so I'm not sure how I could verify that... on one level I think Watchmen's inferiority to From Hell is specifically due to all its superhero-comic-book baggage: on the one hand its amazing to see such a humanistic deconstruction of the genre, but on the other its impact is limited because the story is constrained within those reference points to a large degree. From Hell, by contrast, is just a great story, well-written and painstakingly executed, about much larger and more universal themes and issues and goes DEEP into human culture and the psychology of evil in a way that just isn't possible within the confines of a conventional superhero story (however meta that story is).

I totally disagree with this. Like I said before, Watchmen isn't only about the deconstruction of the superheroes, I think the main thing it does is to use superheroes as symbols and vehicles to explore large, universal themes: politics, war, vigilantism, ethics ("peace at any cost", aka the Veidt solution), the American Dream and what happened to it, even quantum physics (though this last one is done in a rather banal way). Compared to that, what are the "more universal themes" in From Hell? "Psychology of evil"? Well, when you really look at it, FH is about a serial killer who had an unhappy childhood, and who's into occultism and also has visions and is a bit mad. Not a particularly original or deep analysis of "evil". Also, I've always thought these sort of looks into the minds of serial killers aren't particularly universal, because most of us don't have to deal with serial killers.

Now don't get me wrong, I think From Hell is a great comic, but that's exactly because it is more about little details than about the sort of grandiose universal themes Moore had in Watchmen and V for Vendetta. However, I think both Watchmen and From Hell suffer from Moore's tendency to do pompous, over-the-top endings. FH actually suffers more from this, because the ending, with Gull's visions of future and him becoming a "ghost", strays from the general realism of the comic, and actually has little to do with the rest of the story. I think it would've been much better for Moore to let the reader decide how mad Gull was instead of providind the supernatural ending we have now.

Come to think of it, as crosses of Tony Scott movies and Roadrunner cartoons go, Elektra: Assassin is better.

Elektra:Assassin, brrrr. I hates it. Shite story, shite art (shite art as in messy, over the top, gaudy, horrible, etc.), no characters.

"Maus" is a good recommendation. I held off reading it for years, reckoning it would be Lofty and Serious in the way that comics for non-comics fans can so often be, but it is actually very funny a lot of the time. The bits where the whole nationalities-represented-by-animals starts breaking down (Roma as butterflies???) are rather chortlesome.

I didn't much care for Elektra Assassin either. Miller's plot wasn't that impressive, and while Sienkiewicz's might be nice for more experimental comics, in this it makes the story painfully hard to follow.

> (You might be thinking of Stray Toasters.)

i was, yes 8) (and nearly posted as much but nobody else was saying anything and i'd already posted 3 messages in a row...)

"Sienkiewicz's art"

I think it would've been much better for Moore to let the reader decide how mad Gull was instead of providind the supernatural ending we have now.

He did! The reader can totally decide that Gull is mad and imagining or hallucinating the ending, you've just decided it's 4 real.

If he was just imagining things, how comes his visions of future are totally accurate?

Also, unlike the reader Gull doesn't know who the women with the kids who he last sees is, so why would have had such a vision in the first place if it wasn't supernatural?

Spooky.

in fairness, I didn't know who the woman was either until ages later someone explained to me what had happenend. It is not for nothing they do not call me The Brainy Vicar.

I think Moore deliberately left her identity to be a bit of a mystery for the reaer to solve. The biggest clue is actually in the notes, not in the comic proper. Though the last scene makes little sense if you don't know who she is.

Maybe I am being blase, but you guys keep talking about the same things canon, which seems a bit cliche. Then again, Gear asked essential novels so I have no right to complain, I guess. Gotta repeat the love for LADY SNOWBLOOD though. I think it's awesome.

There are only so many options, kinda.

I mean there are far fewer comics made than movies or novels or what-have-you.

yes Tuomas I'm aware how much you hate it whenever anything supernatural happens in a story (be it Lynch or Moore or whoever). This is not a defect of writing or plot construction, its a personal hangup that you have.

As far as From Hell being a deeper work about evil, I think it gets a lot of its resonance from a) being based on actual events, complete with recognizable historical characters and settings and a huge backdrop that basically composed of the entirety of Western culture (see Gull's "tour of London" issue, which is a small masterpiece); b) it isn't just about any serial killer - for one thing, its about the FIRST serial killer - and Gull's evil is clearly bound up in a tradition of oppressive male power that goes way beyond "gosh look at this loony with his weird problem with women" kind of psychoanalysis; and c) because of these bigger themes the book ostensibly has a wider appeal - you don't have to know anything about the history of comics or superheroes or any kind of comics-medium-in-jokes (which Watchmen is riddled with, if not entirely composed of), this is stuff anyone can grasp, it operates on a basic primal level asking questions about what human culture is and how society is structured and the kind of suffering its built on.

Ok, so who is the woman at the end of From Hell?

the woman was supposed to be Gull's last victim, but she escaped (I forget her name, its the one the investigator had a little crush on) - the woman Gull actually killed was someone else who had taken her bed.

The chapter where Gull sees the future is possibly one of the most intense things I've ever read. Left me totally unsettled at the end of it.

Mary Kelly.

Also, unlike the reader Gull doesn't know who the women with the kids who he last sees is, so why would have had such a vision in the first place if it wasn't supernatural?

Do you always know exactly who everyone is in your dreams, and never find them unsettling for reasons you can't pinpoint?

I don't know if I should read through all of this but I am looking for a graphic novel with good art, originality, and void of super hero type stuff (but not too girly).

I liked reading through the previews of Adrian Tomine's work here.
I have read Daniel Clowes - David Boring and Ghost world, Maus, and Jimmy Corrigan the Smartest Kid on Earth. I liked all of them. Clowes is great at capturing realistic expressions and dialog, Maus was great because it was a page turner, and Jimmy Corrigan was great because of its' epicness and wonderful art.

get this
http://weblogs.variety.com/photos/uncategorized/cantgetno.jpg

The Salon

I like deep stuff and creative imagery

get the one i said to get

and the one dr superman

I'll check em out

get this

if you are a HUGE STONER

Eisner's collected 'Contract With God' trilogy.
Eddie Campbell's Alec books (The King Canute Crowd, Three Piece Suit, How To Be An Artist, After The Snooter)
Anything else by Eddie Campbell
Cerebus, as mentioned above, is still astonishing (my guide here: This is the thread where I try and summarise Cerebus )
Fun Home
Lost Girls (not sure how available this is)
Alice In Sunderland is probably this year's finest work
Owly
Scott Pilgrim

> I liked reading through the previews of Adrian Tomine's work here.

tomine has several collections out, mostly short stories but the recent 3 issue extended story is recently out as a book ('shortcomings'). (search amazon for 'tomine')

there's a second volume of maus btw, and lots more daniel clowes and chris ware. have recently read and enjoyed clowes' 'ice haven' and wares' 'acme novelty library 17'.

lone wolf and cub.

Aldo, tell me more re. Alice in Sunderland.

Does one really need to be a stoner to enjoy "Can't get no..."?

Alice In Sunderland is Bryan Talbot's history of Sunderland, filtered through what is known of Lewis Carroll's relationship with Alice Liddell.

It's probably best described as if Iain Sinclair and Alan Moore were collaborating on a book about the North East - imagine something that looks like Voice Of The Fire, or The Highbury Working, only with the comics density of Promethea and Watchmen put together.

Voice Of The Fire, or The Highbury Working

I do not know these books :( I will have a look at Alice though. Sounds good. Does one need to know Sunderland or is it secondary to the story?

Voice Of The Fire is Alang Moore's novel (non-graphic) about Northampton. The Highbury Working is a spoken word piece he did with Tim Perkins which is available on CD (in fact, all his spoken word pieces are good - let me see if I can sort out a Why Ess Eye later).

Sunderland is not secondary to the story, but you don't need to know anything about it. I certainly didn't know very much about it before reading - almost everything was new to me.

I have actually read Voice of Fire. I can't really remembering enjoying it all that much. The offer of the other sounds v good indeed!

Just pricing up Alice in Sunderland now, sounds very interesting indeed!

http://ilx.wh3rd.net/ILX/NewAnswersControllerServlet?boardid=57

CaptainLorax, do you love comis? I Love Comics.

ugh Adrian Tomine

hadn't heard of that Veitch thing before, he's great!

i'm currently reading tomine's 'summer blonde' - i like it, but it's pretty depressing and sad. next up is 'curses' by kevin huizenga.

took me awhile to get into because i've never been a fan of comics or read a graphic novel, but they were gifts.

i've heard lots of good things about joe matt.

Alice In Sunderland is a BUCKET OF SHIT and has ZERO comics density. Every single page is a few black and white drawings of Talbot talking and talking and talking to the reader, in front of hideous, hideous, hideous shitey photoshop collages where he's taken all his reference photos and tried to swerve copyright by blurring the edges and sticking them through My First Oil Painting Filter and My First Lumpy Glass Window Filter. There's nothing wrong with the cross-references, but they don't actually reveal any deep thinking about the connections beyond "Ey up! This happened too! But 300 years earlier. Eh? Eh?" He's so smug about creating (get this) three different versions of himself to portray different levels of reader interest that he takes time to tell you that he's done it instead of just letting you decode for yourself that the fat slob asking dipshit questions is a device to prompt exposition and explication.

Forget the author of Arkwright and One Bad Rat, this is about one-ninth as good as Phage: Shadow Death.

Does one really need to be a stoner to enjoy "Can't get no..."?

You don't have to, but it will certainly help. If you don't have a taste for long poetic allegories instead, probably steer clear.

there's a second volume of maus btw

There's been a complete volume out for ten or twelve years, I don't think they keep the second serialised version in print anymore

Joe Matt is great - a real genius with the "unreliable narrator" tactic, albeit often a quite subtle one. The whole comic is built around a willful exaggeration of his most loathsome and lamentable character traits (kinda like Curb Your Enthusiasm, only much more carefully constructed and executed)

also his brushwork is really beautiful

dude is really nice too. my best friend emailed him asking if he would sign a book for him if he sent it - joe matt emailed back and told him if he hadn't already bought the book to not bother; he would just send a signed one to him for free.

Dang!

some dudes are just nice.

in his comics he's possibly the most unlikeable person imaginable - a raging narcissist with a host of crippling emotional problems and unattractive sexual proclivities.

void of super hero type stuff (but not too girly).

Oh man this is pretty much prefect.

I recommend Little Lulu

People who like stuff like Maus and Persepolis should check out Stuck Rubber Baby, it's a similarly grounded-in-history kind of a story of oppression and resistance, dealing with the fight for civil rights and gay rights in 60s America. It's not a straight (auto)biography like the other two, but the characters are very well written and believable, and the whole story is quite touching. And it's not too girly either.

GIRLY COMICS FOR DANDY DAMAGED PRINCESS-MEN

What the hell.

lolz @ Maus being called a "straight autobiography"

Poor Finnish word choices aside, I heartily second the recommendation of "Stuck Rubber Baby." Also "Can't Get No," even if you aren't high.

Dave McKean's Cages is excellent.

I'm not really into graphic novels so much so my standards might be off, but there's a Japanese book called "Blame!" (supposed to be pronounced 'Blam!', but you know, the author's Japanese) about people wandering this infinitely massive building in the future. The style cops a lot from Alien and it occasionally veers into cheesy Japanese cyber-gothiness, but the art is astounding and the author's vision is so uniquely bleak that it really sets itself apart from your standard Japanese sci-fi (which I usually just ignore). Anyway, the author is Tsutomu Nihei and I think it's just been translated into English.

an ILXor wrote THE BOOK.

Doug Wolk is an ilxor??

Yep, and I host his MP3s for his website. <3

"can't get no" seemed a bit too America-centric for me. I decided to give it a miss. What I read of "Stuck rubber baby" in the shop I found rather dull. I might give it another chance.

If only these things were cheaper! My curiosity is tempered by my brokedness :(

Where is a good place to start with Joe Matt? Is he like Joe Sacco?

Oh right. Wikipedia comes to the rescue:

* Peepshow - The Cartoon Diary of Joe Matt, 1992 (Kitchen Sink)/1999 (Drawn & Quarterly), a collection of mostly one-page strips, usually dealing with a single subject, originally published between 1987 and 1991.

* The Poor Bastard, 1996 (Drawn & Quarterly), which collects stories published in Peepshow numbers #1 to #6. This book chronicles Joe's relationship and breakup with then-girlfriend Trish.

* Joe Matt's "Jam" Sketchbook , 1998, Collaborations with Chris Ware, Seth, Chester Brown, Julie Doucet, Adrain Tomine, Max, Jason Lutes, Dave Sim, Will Eisner, Marc Bell, James Kochalka, Ivan Brunetti, Steven Weisman, etc., limited print.

* Fair Weather, 2002 (Drawn & Quarterly), which collects Peepshow numbers #7 to #10. In this book Matt chronicles an episode from his childhood in 1970s suburbia.

* Spent, 2007 (Drawn & Quarterly), which collects Peepshow numbers #11 to #14. In this book Matt chronicles a story arc that documents his obsessive “editing” of porn videos.

Need to read some of it before buying 3 books outright. There's impulsive and then there's crazy!

I'll add my name to the list of people who found Stuck Rubber Baby to be dull, worthy nonsense. If I hadn't bought it in a charity shop for £2 I would have felt ripped off.

energy flash - I completely disagree with you about Alice In Sunderland, but I can see where you're coming from.

I finally got around to reading "Epileptic" by David B. Pretty good but not great.

They're making "Y: The Last Man" into a movie...pretty scared they'll ruin that one.

They're making "Y: The Last Man" into a movie...pretty scared they'll ruin that one.

I dunno, could work. That said, I have only read the first one so can hardly judge properly!

Need to read some of it before buying 3 books outright

DO NOT start with Fair Weather. Do not start with Spent, but not as emphatically. Either Poor Bastard or the diary strips are OK to start with, but whichever you try first, go to the other one next before moving on to later material.

Fair Weather is actually my favorite but yeah its not a good starting point as its not really emblematic of his work. I'd say start with The Poor Bastard. The earlier strips are also great and really funny, but aren't as stylistically well-realized (also lots of tiny hard-to-read panels)

Does anyone else think a lot of modern autobio comic makers don't have enough bio to auto? I'm looking at you, Blankets.

Also, could anyone give me an example of "girly comics" besides maybe the abominable Strangers in Paradise, which I would call more of a douchebag comic?

i dont get the fun home love. it was so BORING!!!!

Also, could anyone give me an example of "girly comics" besides maybe the abominable Strangers in Paradise, which I would call more of a douchebag comic?

http://www.jennymiller.com/romancecomics/rm1coverthumb.jpg

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:4NajNwdsGmRd6M:http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/2746/imor758au.jpg

http://www.matt-thorn.com/comicology/romance/fire5.jpg

Yeah, but I meant more ones people actually read, or would recommend in a thread like this requiring someone to specify "no girly comics."

Does anyone else think a lot of modern autobio comic makers don't have enough bio to auto? I'm looking at you, Blankets.

-- Abbott, Friday, October 12, 2007 6:35 PM (2 hours ago) Bookmark Link

It's like she's saying what I think!

I'm not real sure what girly comics means, but Lynda Barry rewlzorz.

The way CpnLrx used it was as a diss. Srsly, I was thinking 'Julie Doucet? Lynda Barry? Aline Kominsky Crumb?" MAYBE only the latter would qualify, but hardly even then. I think he meant like "for girls comics," like calling a new Beetle a girly car. And Strangers in Paradise is the only one I can think that matches, but no one here would recommend suck foul filth.

I have no idea what he meant, the very idea of "girly comics" is a headscratcher. I can think of lots of comics by women that are uniformly great - Little Lulu, Trina Robbins, Aline Komiskey-Crumb, Julie Doucet etc.

haha x-post

I think he meant like "for girls comics,"

reminds me of Steve Martin's line about "cigarettes for women"

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.urbanhonking.com/greatestband/archives/SteveMartin.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.urbanhonking.com/greatestband/archives/2005/09/funny_comedy_ga.html&h=371&w=200&sz=12&hl=en&start=1&sig2=hFQQLsaSY0maYtmbFwooQw&tbnid=tJy0Y1HhV20FcM:&tbnh=122&tbnw=66&ei=1PUPR4HiKoPegQOCxfXJCQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSteve%2BMartin%2Bsmoking%26gbv%3D2%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26channel%3Ds%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DG
"what, do they have little breasts on them or something?"

http://www.urbanhonking.com/greatestband/archives/SteveMartin.jpg

Girly comics: Elfquest, a lot of manga (especially romantic and fantasy manga), Tank Girl, Sandman, other high fantasy stuff. This doesn't mean that the these comic would be bad, but they seem to be the sort of of stuff girls who are not that heavily into comics pick up. Of course you shouldn't always make stereotypical assumptions: back in the nineties this female friend of mine who hadn't read much comics fell totally in love with Preacher when I introduced it to her.

And even though it's not a masterpiece or anything, I'd still recommend Preacher today. Despite the sometimes all-too-obvious sexist macho posturing and homophobia, most of the times it's hell of a fun read. And it contains one of the best goth disses ever made.

my friend is having lunch with joe matt tomorrow!

ok, so my friend spent practically the whole day with joe matt and his friend, took him and the guy from the eels to adrian tomine's wedding AND got mr matt to sign and illustrate one of his books for me - a huge full page illustration!!

!!!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2228/1563900391_45bd74fe8b.jpg

awes

Graphic novels I have read (a few entirely on the recommendation of this thread):

Maus I and II
Persepolis I
Fun Home
a few American Splendor collections

I have loved them all, and Jimmy Corrigan is coming in the mail. I think I'm ready to move away from the autobiography type graphic novel now, though. Any additional good advice?

I might have said this on an ILC thread, but I think "Strangers in Paradise" is literally the worst thing I've ever read. Like, it made me really angry. It's like an infinitely dumber version of "Love and Rockets."

yah its terrible

I fall somewhere between Aldo and Kit on ALICE IN SUNDERLAND - agree that the multiple narrators device is v. lame, much of the bk is more like an illustrated lecture than a comic strip (tho' the E.C. parody is amongst the weakest segements and, sad to say, the Baxendale page is woeful also) and the conclusion abt cultural diversity and whatnot is gobsmackingly obvious and banal. But - I thought many of the connections made were impressive, I enjoyed the mad scope of the book, learned a great deal of English social and cultural history, and, most of all, the stuff abt Carroll and Alice was fascinating and touching. In many ways I think there was a better, more interesting strip struggling to escape from this baggy monster - def. NOT a good GN for beginners, tho

The recent Moebius documentary screened on BBC4 reminded me that Jodorowsky and Moebius' INCAL series is still relatively easy to get hold of as two translated volumes from DC - visionary, hallucinatory SF at its finest

Q: If you really really like Daniel Clowes but know almost nothing about Graphic Novels or comics aside from quite enjoying Black Hole but thinking it should be funnier, what do you read next?

A: Try the MISERY LOVES COMEDY h/c from Fantagraphics that collects the first three issues of Schizo by Ivan Brunetti - funnier than BLACK HOLE, blacker than a black hole

I'd also suggest Peter Bagge's HATE series, starting with "The Bradleys" (which was actually published in Neat Stuff rather than HATE) then "Buddy Does Seattle" (The first half of the HATE run proper - all the B&W stuff set in duh, Seattle" but when you move to the second half of the Hate run, you'll have to choose between "Buddy does Jersey" (which reprints the color run in b&w) and the three volumes "Buddy Goes Home" "Buddy's Got Three Moms" and "Buddy Bites The Bullet" - which will triple the expense, but reprint the originally published color art.

That is, if I'm reading the Amazon listings correctly. I've only read that stuff in floppies.

Oh, I think I will like the Ivan Brunetti thing as I think I recognise the artwork from Kierkegaard and Satie parodies I saw in McSweeney's.

Q: If you really really like Daniel Clowes but know almost nothing about Graphic Novels or comics aside from quite enjoying Black Hole but thinking it should be funnier, what do you read next?

It's a Good Life if You Don't Weaken by Seth I think is thematically similar to many of Clowes' work (nostalgia for something that might've never even existed, distance between people, etc), but it's more low-key and realistic. You might also check I Never Liked You by Chester Brown. And if you like slice-of-]ife urban French stories peppered with surrealism and humour, I can't recommend Monsieur Jean by Dubuy and Berberian enough. It's a wonderful read, more optimistic and less self-obsessed than many other similar comics.

"girly comics" - comics about shopping for shoes and losing weight and that thing she said about my her friend's boyfriend k?

actually, I kinda liked those Daniel Clowes comics and they are largely based on relationships and dialog so go figure. I don't think I would like Can't Get Know by Rick Veitch because the first ten page previews I read online were pages of a book I don't want to read. So when I said "girly comics" I had no clue really. I just don't want superhero books.

Can't Get No*

HATE is all about relationships and dialog. And wildly distorted anger faces.

Alice in Sunderland arrived. Will have a quick read this evening, first impressions aren't wholly positive I'm afraid but that's due to cover and my own superficiality!

HATE is great

that Joe Matt sketch is teh lolz

H8 is one of the most funniest and best-drawned things ever. I think the art's great anyway, my boyfriend thinks it's so ugly he can't even look at it.

It took me a while to get used to Bagge's cartoon exaggeration, but yeah his art is pretty awesome.

I'm still in the market for graphic novels. Someone told me:

Watchmen = win.
That said, try Black Hole - it's self contained, beautiful, and weird.
Transmetropolitan is sheer win.
So is Planetary.
The Filth will break your head in such a lovely way.
That's it for now.

agree? (so far Watchmen is the only guaranteed purchase. I think I'm leaning towards Scott McCloud's 10 Essential American Comics for the graphic novel nub like myself - I've read some Clowes, Maus, and Jimmy Corrigan and I'm looking for comics the sort of revolutionize the medium by either awesome art technique (Chris Ware), or a detailed account of an interesting story (Maus), or a fine understanding of human intricacies, emotions, and subtleties.(Clowes))

also Preacher and Fables were suggested... agree?

not yet for you.

Would not suggest Preacher unless you like EXTREMOVIOLENCE and a kind of twisted sense of 'morality'. It has a pretty great, dark sense of humor in some scenes (and with some characters tbh, but it's eventually gets pretty grating.

I just picked up Jason Lutes' Berlin: City of Stones, Vol. 1, which compiles the first 8 issues and was published in 2000. Luckily, the second volume (issues 9-16, I assume) comes out tomorrow, and then I suppose there will likely be another 8 year wait for the third and final volume to come out. Historical fiction set in Berlin from 1928-1933. I'm only a few issues into the first volume, but I'm enjoying it. Anyone else read it, following it, etc?

revolutionize the medium by either awesome art technique (Chris Ware)

lolololol the idea that Chris Ware "revolutionized" the medium by basically meticulously aping outmoded commercial art styles is ludicrous

Why? Seems to me he kinda did.

he aped it but used it in the context of some very new and avant structures and techniques...even though much of it can be traced back to that one Richard Mguire piece from volume 2 of RAW.

how has the medium changed as a result of Ware's work? Did you see a rash of comics artists using techniques/styles that he specialized in following his appearance on the scene? Are comics now produced in a different way, post-Ware? Is the standard content and narrative structure of comics different, post-Ware?

Don't get me wrong, I like him, but the dude is like the EXACT OPPOSITE of revolutionary, he is completely and utterly devoted to graphic design styles mastered by preior generations.

(also note original post is about his "revolutionary" ART TECHNIQUE not the juxtaposition of said art technique with fairly standard po-mo, self-awarene/ironic narratives)

self-aWARE

Ware's revolutionary quality (if you grant him that) has more to do with how he uses and reconfigures his influences than with anything he ex nihilo invented.

even though much of it can be traced back to that one Richard Mguire piece from volume 2 of RAW.

I was thinking more of Spiegelman's Midget Detective strip in one of those early RAW issues but yeah that too

x-post

(also note original post is about his "revolutionary" ART TECHNIQUE not the juxtaposition of said art technique with fairly standard po-mo, self-awarene/ironic narratives)

Fair enough, though I got what Captain Lorax (or at least McCloud) meant. Still,

he is completely and utterly devoted to graphic design styles mastered by preior generations.

simplifies what the guy does in a *major* way

Here (amazing McGuire piece) and Midget Detective probably had an impact Ware, but his work isn't entirely subordinate to his influences. I'm not the biggest Ware defender, but writing him off as a magpie seems unfair.

OMG ZS that is the best news I've heard in forever, about the second volume of Berlin! That's one of my FAVORITES. I want to read Jar of Fools pretty bad.

I was looking at my issue of a comic book abt the Melvins and Jason Lutes had worked on it. !!!

I know this is cred-free here, but are the 'Lucifer' comics (offshoot of Sandman, but no Gaiman) worth reading? My library has all of them.

Yep, Amazon has it (Berlin, Vol. 2) listed for a Aug. 19th release, for $13.57! I was going to ask about Jar of Fools, too.

**Neophyte Alert**

I just got into the genre not too long ago (see dumb posts above), and so far I've mainly stuck with recommendations and "classics" before I dive into contemporary works in progress. So I'm kinda stoked to finish up Vol. 1, catch up with the newly released Vol. 2, and then read the issues of what will eventually be Vol. 3 as they come out serially. This is a big moment for me.

I've got most of the Berlin issues floating around somewhere, but haven't read them as I want to read the whole thing in one go. Of course, it will take FUCKING YEARS before they're all out. Sigh.

I've read Jar of Fools, but not for a while. The guy can draw like a motherfucker, and JoF was pretty OK, but what I've read of Berlin (I think the first 10 or 12 or so) were really kicking its ass.

Yes, Lucifer is worth reading, Abbott. It is Big, and it's about Lucifer creating a new world free of G_d's influence and hijinks that ensue. It is not nearly as highfalutin' and serious as it might sound but it is still Vertigo.

Love some hijinks!

I can't believe I've been here longer than 10 months

Just so you all know, I don't tell people in other forums about ilx. The people that lurk in other forums I visit occasionally (mmorpg.com), would make ILX turn into ape shit. Who would want ILX to become 4chan for instance? I mean theres a huge difference between a forum being ape shit as opposed to unicorn shit or whatever the hell ILX is.

Wow, I just read The Arrival by Shaun Tan, and I would wholeheartedly recommend it to everyone. The artwork is absolutely beautiful, and though there is no words it would easily translate into a really great movie. As the title suggests, it is about a man who leaves his wife and daughter to find work in a new country. It's obviously influenced by Ellis Island in the late 19th/early 20th century, but with flying ships, balloon postal service, and so on. Alternate universe new country. Very dreamlike. The book excels in recreating that sense of fright, wonder and confusion one encounters upon entering a new culture, with no friends, not knowing the language. Where will he sleep, where will he work? What the HELL is that food? It is awesome.

Also, this would be one of those books that you could read as a child and enjoy, and then 20 years later reread it and enjoy it on another level.

This is from a section where he is trying to figure out how to use the public transportation system. The little creatures are the pets that everyone seems to have.

http://i44.tinypic.com/28in7h2.jpg

The city

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w120/jeffreyquah/thearrivalsplash.jpg

(I'll stop. I'm just excited about being able to recommend something that hasn't been mentioned already here.)

nice picture - reminds me of charcoal drawings that the kids are forced to do at art schools... but with a red color (and probably more talent than most art school kids).

I have most recently acquired: The Frank Book and From Hell. The Frank Book is probably going to end up as a centerpiece for a coffee table one day when I buy a house (no guest actually wants to read a whole book on a coffeetable so I might as well put one with great art and barely any text).

I'm Looking into Ordinary Victories by Manu Larcenet because the art style seems like something I would draw and it's just a majestic type of cartoony art. (I mentioned recently this book recently in I Love Comics - even though I don't read any comics. Just cartoons and graphic novels.) Unfortunately, Ordinary Victories, is probably too skimpy to call a novel. (but there is 4 in the series right now and 2 are translated to English)
http://madinkbeard.com/images/Larcenet1.gif

z_S, i bought the arrival for my bf last year after the cover caught my eye at a bookstore - it really is beautiful.

i'll have to get that

I love the arrival too. been meaning to pick up his new one 'tales from outer suburbia'

My gf just referred this question to me, since I've been reading a decent amount of graphic novels the past year or so, but now I'm passing this on to you all to see if you have any advice:

I'm a magazine editor who needs to solicit an article on graphic
novels-only I'm not overly familiar with the genre and don't have a ton
of time for research. The magazine I work for covers issues related to
war and peace, poverty, and social justice, so I'd like the writer to
focus on new graphic novels (out within the last couple years) that
address these issues. Anyone out there who follows the genre and can
point me in a few directions - or know of good writing on it?

"out within the last couple years" is the difficult part for me, since I've spent the last year mainly trying to get familiar with touchstones that have been out for a long time. So while Maus would be great, it's also a few decades old.

Persepolis seems like a decent recommendation, although it's a few years old now. Anyone else have any ideas?

By the way I ignored all the advice on this thread and recently read Blankets. The description on Amazon made it sound like the story of the agony of growing up in a tiny town in the middle of nowhere with a super-evangelical family. A small part of the story was about that. But he doesn't really rebel against any of that much until the final 1/10 of the story. Up to that point he's like "I can't think about girls or I'll make God angry at me, wahhh". The dialogue is also consistently unrealistic and overblown: "When we were young, my brother and I shared the same bed...and we would often witness sparks of light dancing about the sheets." No wonder Raina dumped you, dude.

Beautifully drawn, I'll give it that. But it's telling that the most enjoyable page in the entire book is the one given over to a recreation of a comic strip that his brother shows him (the one about the guy and the eyebrow fairy, for those that read it). Where is his BROTHER's graphic novel? I'd read that.

bump for advice on the magazine editor's question?

I can't think of anything off the top of my head, as I'm usually a superhero kinda guy, but if you crosspost the question to I Love Comics you might get results. I will let the question marinate though, and if I think of anything will post here.

Joe Sacco's Palestine and Safe Area Gorazde might be good recommendations.

Can't think of anything from the last couple of years, but Howard Cruse's Stuck Rubber Baby would fit what the editor is looking for, as it is a mixture of a coming-out story of a gay man and a history of the civil rights movement in the American South. It's from the 90s though, so not really recent.

Also, Pyongyang by Guy Delisle, Exit Wounds by Rutu Modan.

Thank you for the recommendations, and yeah, I'll cross-post this over at ILC.

Oh, and Alan's War by Emmanuel Guibert.

I guess Jason Lutes' Berlin is pretty recent, as the second book came out only last year. It's quite good, but it isn't finished yet.

Just got the second Hate anthology today, not exactly serious graphic novel stuff, but fun anyway.

I second the recommendation on Exit Wounds, and it definitely is about war and peace (as well as family and romance).

Agreed on exit wounds. I haven't read those Sacco books but I read one or two earlier ones, he's definitely good.

I've never read Joe Sacco, but he's probably your man.

Fun Home by Alison Bechdel is pretty recent too, and I guess the gay/lesbian content makes it kinda political, though it's mostly a family history. More relevant from a LGBT and social rights point of view is her long-running strip Dykes to Watch Out For, which I think is her true masterpiece. I'd recommend that to anyone, besides lesbian history and political commentary it also has plenty of humour and drama and soap opera, so it's quite fun to read. (Fun Home is good too, but it's kinda text-heavy and narratively complex, so it takes some effort to get inside it.)

Sacco's work is excellent. If war reportage is not your thing his But I Like It is a lighter book about touring with a rock band.

I've tried to read Sacco's "journal" comics, but the overtly long text panels always wear me down. They feel more like illustrated reportages than proper comics with good storytelling.

Any graphic novels that you'd recommend for an 11 year old and a 14 year old?

The latter has "V is for Vendetta". The former actually draws in a way that reminds me of Mr Scruff (amazed he hasn't written a book) or Kid Koala (probably too bleak ... also too rare/expensive).

Ta.

Trying to keep to limited runs/single edition trades.

Both younguns:
Noelle Stevenson - Nimona
If they're OK with having a girl protag (lord knows I wouldn't have been at that age), really funny, lovely art, nice story about friendship.

Jeff Smith - Bone
Great adventure story, tails off towards the end but the beginning is magical. And yes, there are single-volume editions available lol.

14YO:
BKV - Runaways
Bright and TUNS of FUNS, there are like 4 volumes (collected into 2 omnibuses)? BUT SO GOOD.

Frank Miller - Batman: Year One
Grim / gritty done right. Exceptionally tight writing.

Alan Moore - Top 10
Also bright and fun, though it does touch on L&O:SVU like subjects, but hell, if they're reading V...

Dan Slott + Ty Templeton - Spider-Man/Human Torch
Bright and funny. Slott's She Hulk is also good, but that spans several volumes.

More if I can remember.

10yo
Grant Morrison - All Star Superman
I’m not a big reader of Supes but this is a beautiful and loving distillation of the character.

14yo
Grant Morrison - We3
My favorite Morrison, about cyborg animals, I don’t remember how violent is is though.

it is super violent!

All-Star Superman is p much perfect though

Yes, plus you get the acronym which anyone that age will love.

Kate Beaton for both

Grant Morisson's Doom Patrol for the 14-year-old

Sfar/Trondheim's "Dungeon Zenith" for both

20th Century Boys for the 14-year-old

Liana Finck's instagram for either

Scalped for the 14 year old (it's like a teenager's idea of an adult book - there are bewbs)

Paper Girls for either

Sic to thread for indies

Also big yes on Top 10 (you might like it too, it's the best)

Oh, and depending on their interest in Marvel lore, the Kieron Gillen 2 x Journey Into Mystery books are very good

Apologies for preemptively gendering the whippersnappers.

anything kind of recent I should pay attention to? I just went and bought the first two HC collections of Y: The Last Man. I've likd Saga but maybe not as much as some other people. Obviously Monstress is completely amazing.

Axe Cop for children of every age.

Jeff Smith - Bone
Great adventure story, tails off towards the end but the beginning is magical. And yes, there are single-volume editions available lol.

AFAIK these days it's single-volume for B&W, digest-sized multi-volumes for colour. it looks good in colour imo, and they're less likely to suffer fatigue* when it gets kinda boring later on
*both of attention and arms, from holding a huge heavy book

Dan Slott + Ty Templeton - Spider-Man/Human Torch
Bright and funny. Slott's She Hulk is also good, but that spans several volumes.

unfortunately the new version of Spidey/Torch has some other bullshit padding it out as well. also She-Hulk is kinda only for nerds, there's loads of continuity stuff that I had trouble dealing with. and the amount of "I'm a lawyer lady who fucks!" might be not suitable for the 11yo if the 14yo is laughing at it and the former gets curious

djh - this is like saying "can you recommend some songs for an 11yo and a 14yo" - what sort of TV or movies or prose books do they like already? (also though: have they read Asterix and Tintin already? get the 11yo loaded up on those from the library asap, especially if your library has older copies of Tintin without eyestrainingly ugly computer lettering)

Trying to remember...there are volumes of Dungeon where the protagonists don't, for example, contract venereal disease from a dalliance with a prostitute, yes? Because I would highly recommend those non-racy volumes to kids if they exist.

I didn't follow any of the continuity of She-Hulk, but point taken.

Would also add:

Hellboy - Wake the Devil
Occulty apocalyptic weirdness.

akm - I love Lazarus -- deals with the global breakdown of nation-states as polities, which are replaced with corporate families ruling their regions as fiefdoms, WITH SCIENCE.

Also Monstress baffles me, I don't know what's going on (other than Maika being insufferably mean to Kippa).

lumberjanes, especially if they are girls

Yeah my 11yo loves those

Axe cop is also great

The Dungeon Zeniths are the non-racy, continuity-lite, non-venereal disease containing ones IIRC. Although, er, try before you buy..

Of course it's the often the books with the flashes of Verboten Adult Things that are the most interesting. We had a copy of L'Incal in the French section of my junior school library. The first pages were well-perused.

(NB not recommending L'Incal - although I did enjoy Bllueberry as a kid.)

The Lucky Luke translations are pretty good too. The Spirou ones are awful, sadly.

Thinking back to what I was reading at 14 and, hey, why not Sandman? You could do a lot worse, and it's even arguably educational (made me a whole helluva lot more interested in like Shakespeare and mythology than stupid school ever did). I might argue that it's practically tailor-made for fourteen-year-olds.

All-Star Superman is p much perfect though

yes, otm, 100% - the best superman story ever told, and suitable for all ages

Dungeon Zenith is good but Dungeon Parade is even more non-racy and continuity-lite (as I understand it they're repurposed plots from an aborted Dungeon cartoon?)

I just picked up Jason Lutes' Berlin: City of Stones, Vol. 1, which compiles the first 8 issues and was published in 2000. Luckily, the second volume (issues 9-16, I assume) comes out tomorrow, and then I suppose there will likely be another 8 year wait for the third and final volume to come out.

― Z S, Tuesday, August 19, 2008 1:34 AM (ten years ago)

this guy knew what was up

would like to second the bone rec for either age but specifically i was obsessed with bone when i was 10

Thanks all - I'll dip into those.

*this is like saying "can you recommend some songs for an 11yo and a 14yo"*

Yes, I get this completely. The younger one draws a cartoon about a lemon and a lime every day - in the first one the lemon is telling the lime "You're bitter". He likes Minecraft.

The older one seems to like tracksuits and rugby but I don't really know his cultural reference points - I've been told he likes graphic novels!

The younger one draws a cartoon about a lemon and a lime every day

this kid seems awesome

Yes, definitely get that kid some Axe Cop.

(And it occurs to me now that Axe Cop has been evoked multiple times itt without anyone stating outright that its writer was six years old when it started and this is why Axe Cop is one of the most awesome comics ever.)

(Sorry, I just double checked and Malachi Nicholle was actually only five when he started writing Axe Cop. My apologies.)

n the first one the lemon is telling the lime "You're bitter".

Lime's response: "Good God, lemon."

Yes, I get this completely. The younger one draws a cartoon about a lemon and a lime every day - in the first one the lemon is telling the lime "You're bitter". He likes Minecraft.

Seems like some The Far Side treasuries might be good for this fella

The older one seems to like tracksuits and rugby but I don't really know his cultural reference points - I've been told he likes graphic novels!

Find out which ones!

Re: the call for Marvel recommendations in the MCU thread, I went through what they'd collected over the last couple of years (both new and older stuff) and that is likely still in print, and here's some of what I've read and would recommend to a newcomer:

Agents of Atlas Complete Collection Vol. 1
Annihilation Complete Collection Vol. 1-2
Astonishing Ant-Man Complete Collection
Black Panther (Ta-Nahesi Coates) Vol. 1-6
Fantastic Four by Jonathan Hickman Complete Collection Vol. 1
Legion: Son of X Vol. 1-4
Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur: The Beginning
Ms. Marvel: Kamala Khan (Vol. 1) and Metamorphosis (Vol. 2)
Silver Surfer (Dan Slott & Michael Allred) Vol. 1-5
Spider-Gwen (Jason Latour) Vol. 1-6
Thor by Jason Aaron Complete Collection Vol. 1
Unstoppable Wasp: G.I.R.L. Power

And these two will be out sometime within the next couple of months:

Hawkeye: Private Eye
Miles Morales: With Great Power

The majority of this stuff is appropriate for most ages, but the stuff that maybe skews a little older (Annihilation, Thor, Legion) isn't exactly inappropriate. There's no Grimdark McHardman material in my list, is what I'm saying.

Gonna take this thread bump as an opportunity to ask for some recs. Every time I go to the comics shop I get overwhelmed and leave empty-handed. There's just so much stuff these days that I have no idea where to even begin.

Things I've enjoyed: Bone (like BradNelson, I was obsessed with it as a kid), Hellboy, Finder, Kate Beaton stuff, Achewood, Derek Kirk Kim, James Kochalka, March, Fun Home. I guess like out-there sci-fi and fantasy stuff, down-to-earth stories about regular people & non-fiction, and sheer absurdity. I've never really been able to get into superheroes. A couple of years ago I started reading Saga, and I liked it OK, but not enough to really stick with it.

Three recent favourites:

https://www.amazon.ca/Prince-Cats-Ron-Wimberly/dp/1632159260

Hip-hop samurai adaptation of Romeo & Juliet; eye-popping art & action.

https://www.amazon.com/Beverly-Nick-Drnaso/dp/1770462252

Dry, dark comedy of suburbia, like a Tod Solondz movie.

https://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Jon-McNaught/dp/1910620246

One of the best cartoonists working today. Quiet, meditative, poetic, if you like those things.

I really enjoyed Sabrina

(also by Drnaso)

RIYL

Bone

Try Zander Cannon's Kaijumax, a colour series about grumpy giant monsters on a prison island.

Hellboy