New Eightball Noise!

http://www.fantagraphics.com/artist/clowes/eigh23.jpg

Completely brilliant.

Clowes uses a similar technique as he did in the previous issue of Eightball, using the sunday comics page as a way to seperate thoughts/ideas or whatever, however while in 22 a switch in art style or color and the introduction of a new "comic strip" represented a jump to a different part of the story as well as a different mood, in this new issue it takes place in the middle of the narrative sometimes, and is mostly told from Andy's perspective.

Seriously, Dan Clowes is miles ahead of everyone.

Last night I read Chris Ware's cover poster to the McSweeney's comic collection, which also looks like a sunday comics page with different comic strips, some being read by characters in other "strips". Pretty meta. In one there's a picture of a comic writer sitting at a drafting table reading a comic book ("avoiding work") and the Ware stand-in says something like "That's interesting-he uses the daily comics page as a metaphor for co-existing conciousnesses. Ha, that's a good trick...I'm gonna steal it."

I think he's talking about the last issue of Eightball.

Anyway, I like how he plays with the idea of the superhero, like he's been working towards this for years, like that story in eightball about superhero who get's shot, can't remember what it's called.

It made me think about how much he keeps moving away from the Ghost World/Adrian Tomine type hipster characters and towards these characters who are essentially sociopaths.

I don't know what to think of it really. I need to read it some more!

anyway, it's in a few stores, but only stores that buy directly from Fantagraphics. I had trouble finding it. Should be everywhere within a week or so.

Quimby's has a buttload in stock. 'Tis where I got mine.

i don't get this at all. i'm struggling to think of one hipster character in any of AT's stories.

what do YOU think about Andy?

To me, Andy is a move away from this in that he seems really unbalanced, like his life is so fucked because of this power and he thinks he knows everything, but he's really dysfunctional, sociopathic. Earlier characters ranging from Lloyd Llewelyn to Blue Italian Shit to all the characters in Ghost World and many more all seem to be aspects of Clowes himself, and obviously in strips like the one where he's sitting on the bus or walking down the street, or my favorite "The Party", from his own perspective. Then think about the Caricaturist as a character further away from that, closer to Andy. It's like Clowes is saying...this is what happens if you keep down this road, being an alienated judgemental elitist is one thing when you're in art school, it's another thing when you're old and alone, like the Caricatuist or Andy.

I haven't read many Tomine stories, but the ones I've read haven't moved beyond those characters closer to home. Of course he's also younger. I have to say, I hated Tomine when I first read some Optic Nerve stories years ago, and only recently when I bought Summer Blonde to give him another chance did I realize how good he's gotten.

anyway, sorry if this is incoherent, I don't have many people to talk comics with and it's late and I'm tired.

i just found my copy to look through it again, i really think these are pretty normally maladjusted suburban youth and whereas "hipster" would denote some sort of trendy, narrow cultural ambition, i don't really find much of that in these characters (superficially, carlo the neighbor wears kind of (i guess) hip glasses and plays songs on his acoustic guitar... hillary has bangs but are those necessarily the hip kind of bangs)?

but you're absolutely right, his quality has improved exponentially since his first stories.

btw: the Andy question was me referencing that really odd panel in eightball with a bunch of strangers commenting on Andy.

anyway, it's interesting to me when creators move beyond wish-fufillment or even writing what they know, and Clowes seems to be going further into these weird, often unlikeable characters.

the optic nerve stuff I'd read years ago was in the first collection, so I assume it's from earlier issues of eightball.

there's a really interesting, often insightful, often terribly annoying discussion about eightball going on in the comics journal message board, somehow involving lots of name-calling about Coop, for some reason. Anyway, some points are made that Andy and Louie's friendship doesn't make sense, that they're too different to be close, which I call bullshit on, I feel like I had friendships like that in high school, where you bond because you don't relate to the bulk of the school either, despite not being exactly like the other person. And there's some discussion about 23 being a super-hero deconstruction, and how it's a different and/or better way then say Watchmen or even superduperman. I think it's interesting that Clowes continues to come back to super-heroes time and time again, even his father's comic in David Boring.

I had a theory a year ago that indiependent comics are going through a french new-wave phase right now, in the sense that many of the best comics are as much ABOUT comics as they are comics, that Ware and Clowes and in a different way, Alan Moore(in Supreme and all the ABC comics), are all doing fantastic work where they are totally tearing apart the structure of the comic book but telling stories about comic book characters and the history of the comic book. I think Clowes could write another Ghost World or longer "novel" in the style of Caricature or whatever but he chose to write about a superhero.

Art School Confidential comes out in NY on Fri. Any thoughts?

When I saw it, Clowes and Zwigoff did a little talk afterwards. Clowes declined to talk about his current comics project, but he did say that he's writing a screenplay about the true story of a bunch of kids who made a homemade shot-for-shot remake of the first Indiana Jones movie. Just thought I'd throw that out there for y'all.

also art school confidential = thumbs down

The Death Ray wasn't as awesome but still

i think "caricature" the story was maybe the last d clowes thing i really liked!!

have you read ghost world?

(i think the best ever eightball was the one with enid & becky on the cover going "what is this"-"it looks like a giant sperm!" which didn't even appear in any gw stories... it had like a weed, joe and a bunch of other great stuff)

and Ethan in "the whole world is America" shockah

Pssssst... New Clowes book out today! Wilson! I knew it was coming, but the release date totally snuck up on me.

I pre-ordered it on amazon a month ago. Can't wait. I thought Ice Haven and the Death Ray were awesome. Hope he hits this one out of the park.

Saw this instore today, but $40 for EIGHTY PAGES can fuck right off. :(

Looks gorgeous though.

Huh? It's $14 on Amazon.

Postage on a single hardcover would probably still get it over A$30. I'd normally expect it to show up cheaper in the bookshop than the comic shop, but for some reason their Marvel & DC are close to cover, Fanta a few dollars over cover (up to nine for oversized hardcovers), but D&Q stuff is about double cover.

If you're willing to wait 27 days you can preorder the UK hardcover for Aus$10 at http://www.bookdepository.com/book/9780224090612/Wilson

Or get the US hardcover for Aus$22 at http://www.bookdepository.com/book/9781770460072/Wilson

I promise I don't work for them, btw, but it's where I bought my copy. Fuck Amazon and their shipping costs to Australia.

Bang, done. I also clicked around and got another $200 of stuff, oops.

it's nice, but i'm amazed how clearly it's an attempt to bit brunetti's steez

I haven't seen it, but in what way? The technique (old comic strip styles) or something else? I feel like Clowes has done that as long.

Yeah, feels really like early Eightball shorts done in the style of #22 to me, from what I've seen

i thought the jokes and the amorphous visual style and the world weary assholism and casual brutality and general pessimism were VERY brunetti, but i'm well aware that clowes is in that boat too.... can't really read it as anything other than a schulz/brunetti gloss. It's good tho'!

I felt the specter of Johnny Ryan more than Brunetti.
Johnny Ryan is weirdly influencing a lot of the old guard! -- Peter Bagge and Adrian Tomine have gone on record thanking him for opening their eyes.

seriously?

I should probably revisit, because when I first checked out Johnny Ryan I wasn't impressed at all. It seemed like some of the earliest Schizo stuff but not as funny.

They credit him for making them more spontaneous. I haven't read any Clowes on Ryan interviews but the layout and tone of Wilson was a lot like Comic Book Holocaust. I figure he must have seen it at some point and figured at least subconsciously that this would be a more expedient way to tell the Wilson story instead of going the elaborate Death Ray/Ice Haven route.

I think any single Johnny Ryan page is kind of terrible, but they gain a sort of grandeur from sheer productivity and commitment -- you just see page after page of it, and I think the same is true for Wilson. The premise of any single page is really hacky but to see it iterated over and over it becomes great.

I guess I have a similar attitude for many non-professional quality webcomics that get cranked out on a daily/weekly basis, but yeah, the stuff I've seen by Ryan just seems really juvenile.

I mean, Tomine likes his stuff? That seems really weird.

"the stuff I've seen by Ryan just seems really juvenile."

clowes is no stranger to crass but this seems right out of the jryan playbook:
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/8797/90505893.gif

Maybe you're right. That looks awful, though!

sort of hate him now but man A Velvet Glove Cast in Iron is soooooo good

hate his new stuff, or hate everything but Velvet Glove, now?

I got off the bus towards the end of Ghost World. Was looking through pages of Wilson on-line and just kind of found it irritating in its highly-stylized mysanthropy

there's a bunch of post-Velvet Glove things in Eightball, mostly shorter pieces, that I still find really funny (On Sports, Pussey!, Ink Studs, Hippypants and Peacebear etc)

Wilson kinda illustrates everything that's good and bad about Clowes. On the one hand, it's a perfectly constructed, very effective narrative, but on the other hand it's just another variation of the "people are either bastards or stupid or both" story he's been churning out for god knows how long. So yeah, unless he manages discover some new themes for his comics, I'm pretty much done with him too.

I liked the NYT strip. Really, isn't Wilson (and the Art School movie) his only really sub-par work?

I don't think Wilson, or any of his longer narratives really, is "sub-par" in the sense that they would fail to do what he wants them to do. It's just that the particular sensibility and worldview in them gets tiresome after a while... Though maybe that's not the case if you happen to share his cynical/misanthropic worldview?

oh man, its my day for disagreeing w/ ilc - think Velvet Glove is the sub-par, sub-lynchian, comic - the last mediocre thing clowes ever did. i've got no prob w the alleged misanthrophy of wilson, or any 'late clowes'. And wilson in particular can easily be read as a negation of cynicism - it's certainly not an admiring portrait. and in places it's laugh out loud funny.

Well yeah, the main character in Wilson comes off as a jerk, but it's not like he is contrasted with some likable non-cynical characters either. That's what I meant when I said that in Clowes' comic people tend to be either bastards or stupid or both. It's not that he's saying cynicism is the road to happiness, it's just that he doesn't seem to have much faith in people in general.

Wilson's my faves thing he's done in the past 10 years.

I thought Death Ray was the greatest thing ever.

yeah my reaction is similar to Tuomas'

LIke A Velvet GLove and David Boring are the only ones I seem to return to after a first read.

Wilson felt to me like Clowes repeating himself for the first time -- like one of those prestige Seth comics -- well-crafted but sort of dull

That's what I meant when I said that in Clowes' comic people tend to be either bastards or stupid or both.

to expand on this, Clowes seems to have no real affection for his characters. they are presented alternately as objects of pity & scorn. Oddly Peter Bagge, by contrast, while detailing similar sorts of pathetic mysanthropes and losers, renders them with more joy and sympathy.

I like how Wilson deals with his dog's death. "Never use this voice again."

to expand on this, Clowes seems to have no real affection for his characters. they are presented alternately as objects of pity & scorn. Oddly Peter Bagge, by contrast, while detailing similar sorts of pathetic mysanthropes and losers, renders them with more joy and sympathy.

Yeah, this. It's probably no coincidence that Ghost World is by far his most popular comic, since Enid is one of his few characters he treats with empathy (even though she's not that much less pathetic than Clowes' other protagonists).

I think he's totally empathic towards his sad-sack balding cranky middle-aged non-fashion-plate characters d00ds

in what way

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c178/spiritscar/CesarDanClowes.jpg http://www.raincoast.com/images/uploads/wilson-clowes.jpg

yah he's self loathing

significantly resembling one of your characters /= empathizing with your characters

"I know lots of misanthropic types," he says. "I tend to like them. I find it sort of healthy, comforting. It's a better default setting than over-optimism. But I don't think of Wilson as misanthropic. He thinks he's going to make a connection with people, that they'll be on his wavelength, and then gets frustrated when they aren't. But he doesn't go into it thinking: look at this jerk! He has a naive faith in humanity. I guess there's a certain kind of person who can't relate to him in any way. People seem to need a likable protagonist more than ever. It's because they're so used to being fed that in the movies. I find it insulting, the way movies try to ingratiate themselves with the audience that way. I'm more interested in characters who are a little difficult."

I must confess to having a similar relationship with my poor dog. I have this dog that I've had for the past eight years. While my wife and son are off at work and school, this dog is here with me all day and I find myself talking to her all the time. I take her out for walks. She is a pretty exceptionally cute dog and so I'm constantly having conversations with people about the dog. People are often ignoring me and talking directly to the dog. It's a big part of my life. There's an emotional connection that you have to these animals. It's hard to explain and it's a very personal thing, nobody else can quite relate to your relationship to your pet. Nobody else feels the same way about your dog that you do.

Yeah, I think that he's very much an Oakland guy. That was my impetus when I started. I wanted this guy to be from Oakland, the kind of guy you would see walking around in the neighborhood where I live. (...) It's a specific type that I feel doesn't always get talked about a lot in the media, you don't really see them represented. Certainly, all of my friends, pretty much, are of this class of people. I wanted that very specific Oakland-ish guy in there.

Likable characters are for weak-minded narcissists. I much prefer the Rupert Pupkins and Larry Davids and Scotty Fergusons as my leading men. And I actually kind of like Wilson. He'd be fun to hang out with in short and finite increments.

I also sort of admire a guy who can sit down at a table and just talk to somebody, even though he fails miserably at making a connection.

I just started writing these strips about this irritating guy. The more I worked on it . . . I don’t wanna say I liked him, but I found his human side.

Enid would probably get a kick out of Wilson. He’s the kind of person I tend to tolerate a lot more than other people do. I know other people are often heading for the hills when guys like that come by, but I’m often amused by this type, and I think Enid would be too.

People seem to need a likable protagonist more than ever. It's because they're so used to being fed that in the movies. I find it insulting, the way movies try to ingratiate themselves with the audience that way.
...
Likable characters are for weak-minded narcissists. I much prefer the Rupert Pupkins and Larry Davids and Scotty Fergusons as my leading men.

See, this is where I disagree with him. I don't mind reading a story with a jerk protagonist once in a while, as an experiment, but Clowes has pretty much built his career on writing characters like that. And the reason it becomes hard emphasizing with such characters is not because Hollywood has brainwashed us into accepting only likable protagonists, it's because most people aren't jerks. As Shakey said, comics like Hate prove you can write jerk charactes with sympathy, but the misanthropic way Clowes treats his gets tiresome after a while.

fwiw Rupert Pupkin is totally likable, I feel for that dude when I'm watching King of Comedy.

it's the earnestness, the naivete of the character.

Clowes may publicly profess to empathize and enjoy his protagonists, but I don't think it really come through in the work. If he's deliberately constructing protagonists in such negative terms, most readers are going to have a hard time empathizing with them. Even with someone like Larry David there's a degree of empathy, because he's like everyone's worst impulses unleashed and people can identify with that. But if Curb Your Enthusiasm was just Larry being a horrible person moping around by himself because he's alienated everyone it wouldn't really be an entertaining show, it would just be depressing.

There are episodes like that! But they generally tend to be the less enjoyable ones.

I like Clowes, I'm just fed up of this angry social ineffectual loner persona that consistently, boringly keeps turning up in Seth/Ware/Matt etc. It seems like a very 90s type. And there's no depth there.

oh I wouldn't lump Joe Matt in there (for one thing he hasn't put out a comic in what, 6 years?)

"And the reason it becomes hard emphasizing with such characters is not because Hollywood has brainwashed us into accepting only likable protagonists, it's because most people aren't jerks."

Hollywood tends to all have jerk protagonists. They're just charming jerks. Some actors have entire careers based on playing and being charming jerks!
I'm not sure where this Clowseian charmless jerk fatigue is coming from unless your entire media diet consisted of Charmless Jerk Illustrated.

it comes from reading Clowes' comics. the next installation of which had better be called Charmless Jerk Illustrated.