Israel to World: "Suck It."

haha yeah i instantly regretted unwittingly making the palestinians the mad scientist there

I feel kinda shitty giving this huge explanation for why I believe I can't challenge state power, and clearly people like Glenn Greenwald believe they found a means of changing the dynamic in Israel (by trying to get the US to remove support from Israel, thus allowing other states to push against Israel more effectively). This is just the reason why on a thread like this I'm likely to feel really awful about what's going on, stumble around for possible solutions, and ultimately try to explain Israel's actions. I don't see any value in delegitimizing Israeli state power atm (not to mention all the reasons why I think Israel state power is a really important thing to have), and I'd rather try to figure out how we can work out a compromise, or at least make life less shitty for the people in Gaza. (Sometimes I feel like all decisions are just trying to find what makes things less shitty for people. It kinda blows that life feels that way. It's probably a failure of imagination on my part that I can't see a better way through things.)

well Utah Phillips said "the joy is in the struggle", and I think that speaks to a way of letting the act of resistance to power (in whatever form) become life-affirming in and of itself. I was struck by how much I agreed with your take on the problems of confronting state power, but at the same time your take seems much less optimistic than mine in terms of the value of resistance.

I do think you walk a fine line between trying "to explain Israel's actions" and sounding like an IDF press release, but I think I have a better idea of where you're coming from now. so I apologize for heated words and agree to disagree.

The thing is, if your ship is boarded by hostile, armed IDF guys, is the oar or pipe or whatever in your hand an offensive weapon or a defensive one? One thing *nobody* has been able to explain is why the IDF felt justified in boarding an aid vessel in INTERNATIONAL waters, armed or not. This is a dick move that would not be supported by any sane person or government were we discussing some other actor who had done the same to Greenpeace people, for example.

Something I wanted to address that history mayne brought up: the idea that supporters of the flotilla in Europe are some grab-bag of Muslims, the far left and anti-Americans. No, no, no, no. In Europe, there is not the pressure of groups like AIPAC throwing a spaz whenever you mention that Palestinians are actually human beings with needs and claims of their own, so people brought up to believe that apartheid and segregation are wrong and the narcissism of petty difference is misguided draw parallels with how the Israelis treat the Palestinians. These people are not anti-American or anti-Semitic (some are even Jewish or American) and as to their leftism, I think it's a broad leftism rather than oh say Tariq Ali throwing a hissy fit.

one of the people on the boat is a former american ambassador

Mairead Corrigan-Maguire was on one of the other boats

I know! She's VERY OLD. And Henning Mankell, and loads of others. I opened up my Twitter a few minutes ago to see that Roger Ebert had done an RT of sarahfuckingpalin telling all her flying monkeys to read Krauthammer and Horowitz on the flotilla to get what the mainstream is trying to hide. ARGH.

xp to Suzy above.

Just to echo that - in Europe, abhorrence of this is mainstream. At a protest yesterday evening at the Israeli embassy in Dublin, there were two backbenchers from the government party (centre-right Fianna Fail) among the speakers, both of whom had intended to be on the flotilla, until they were prevented by Cypriot police, presumably acting under instruction from Jerusalem.

Assuming it's true that these two guys were prevented from joining the flotilla: How does Jerusalem control the (presumably Northern) Cypriot police? Why do they want to stop these two guys in particular? How can they stop these two guys, but be powerless to prevent the flotilla sailing at all?

You can't even call it a left movement in Europe if you've got Tories and Fianna Fail denouncing the attacks. Ismael, they'd have passed intelligence to the elected officials through government channels.

John Humphrys is currently giving the Israeli ambassador to the UK a very hard time, while the ambassador is spinning the hell out of the 'armed flotilla' meme because he feels he is on the frontline and we in Europe are lightweights with no challenges worth comparing to it. Twat.

Assuming it's true that these two guys were prevented from joining the flotilla: How does Jerusalem control the (presumably Northern) Cypriot police? Why do they want to stop these two guys in particular? How can they stop these two guys, but be powerless to prevent the flotilla sailing at all?

No, 'southern' Cypriot police. and it wasn't just the paddies they stopped.

I think Israel has legitimate concerns about weapons being brought it on boats.

― Mordy, Tuesday, June 1, 2010 1:18 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark

There's so many headaches with armed occupation.

matt otm -- israel should stop occupying gaza.

they don't occupy gaza

Wasn't the Provisional Wing of the IRA actually supposedly fairly limited memberwise until the hunger strikes where Thatcher let them starve to death, which lead to anger in nationalist communities and a huge propaganda boost to the Provisional IRA and membership increased in great numbers. The Brighton bombing was a response to the hunger strike deaths.

At least that's how it was always as perceived as being. maybe someone more in the know can correct this if it's wrong.

Was the ceasefire in effect by 1990?

― pfunkboy (Herman G. Neuname), Tuesday, June 1, 2010 2:06 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark

calling it the 'provisional wing of the 'ira' is always an interesting construction

the ceasefire came in 1994, but the increased support for the republican cause post-bobby sands translated more into political activity rather than more murders. i doubt that membership of the provos increased much -- not sure, though i guess the number of mi5 agents who joined went up, since that ended up doing for them. the worst years of the troubles were in the mid-late 1970s.

i suppose you could call the brighton bombing as response to the strikers' suicides three years before, but i hadn't heard it called that and the ira's statement doesn't mention them. usual boilerplate about living under occupation.

xpost

i know, that was my zing @ matt

Something I wanted to address that history mayne brought up: the idea that supporters of the flotilla in Europe are some grab-bag of Muslims, the far left and anti-Americans. No, no, no, no. In Europe, there is not the pressure of groups like AIPAC throwing a spaz whenever you mention that Palestinians are actually human beings with needs and claims of their own, so people brought up to believe that apartheid and segregation are wrong and the narcissism of petty difference is misguided draw parallels with how the Israelis treat the Palestinians. These people are not anti-American or anti-Semitic (some are even Jewish or American) and as to their leftism, I think it's a broad leftism rather than oh say Tariq Ali throwing a hissy fit.

― I eat truffle fries because my captors say they'll kill me if I don't (suzy), Tuesday, June 1, 2010 7:41 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark

it wasn't me who brought this up; but actually a lot of people involved in this *are* very much anti-american and anti-semitic -- to name one of them, lauren booth, or anyone else involved in press tv.

or these dudes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk

ihh itself is affiliated with hamas -- you'll have to google for that, but im not bullshitting -- and the facebook page for the convoy -- http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=359073569674&ref=search&sid=8YdSIz92yKixYGTYuMzYSQ.1546318140..1 -- trades in 'from the river to the sea'-type slogans whose implications i don't need to point out

all that said, of course i think something needs to be done about gaza to let in basic supplies, that the israeli government is continually its second worst enemy, etc. it's just important to keep your eyes open.

n Europe, there is not the pressure of groups like AIPAC throwing a spaz

i mean, i just don't have too high a view of european commentators on these matter, what with the continent's inglorious recent history

unoccupied countries typically are able to have ships dock on their beach.

gaza is being blockaded, not occupied

which is something to debate

http://www.kibbutzvolunteer.com/

xp That history also includes war crimes trials and a cultural imperative of 'never again', laws against Holocaust denial and a broad lessening of anti-Semitism combined with the idea that Israel has a right to exist. Considering Europe's C20 struggles with fascism and anti-Semitism, we are doing OK here. We are also a lot more grown-up in our approach to interrogating Israeli self-interest and Palestinian rights than everyday people in America are.

I do feel vaguely patronized when told to keep my eyes open; this is an issue I have followed since I was about nine years old and needed to know why it was so important for Sadat and Begin to sign a peace treaty. I don't condone people who yell to kill Jews any more than you do, but then I flat out don't condone toxic numpties with guns whatever cause they lend their idiot support to.

This "press blackout" is really democracy in action, wai 2 go Israel!!eleven1111!!!

http://blogs.lancasteronline.com/courtreport/files/2010/02/david-goliath.jpg

"Gunships... open fire"

Petition for Annoying Jews of ILX Board

http://www.thestapleton.com/sly/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/Ralph-Steadman-2.jpg

"Until you love us, the beatings will continue"

As long as there is a world wide outcry of this magnitude next time 10-19 Israelis, no fuck that, 10-19 of ANY people are killed I could be okay with this media storm.

How come the number isn't known yet?

Yes, the Israeli government is normally so open and transparent when it comes to matters like this

no, no, israel has to be 'held to a higher standard' than other countries (e.g., turkey), because it claims to be a democracy/beacon of human rights/____________

xpost

Wasn't the Provisional Wing of the IRA actually supposedly fairly limited memberwise until the hunger strikes where Thatcher let them starve to death, which lead to anger in nationalist communities and a huge propaganda boost to the Provisional IRA and membership increased in great numbers.

I think you're thinking of Bloody Sunday there, not the hunger strikes, die had long been cast by then

fair enough

As long as there is a world wide outcry of this magnitude next time 10-19 Israelis, no fuck that, 10-19 of ANY people are killed it becomes clear that far more than 10-19 Gazans are living lives of grinding misery that are barely worthy of the name - as a direct result of Israel's vicelike and vindictive non-occupation - I could be okay with this media storm.

"media storm"

xps. bloody sunday boosted ira membership, made them somewhat more than a loony fringe sect. hunger strikes made Sinn Féin a mainstream political party. also probably boosted membership somewhat but the political advance was the main result.

Not sure there's a meaningful difference between being occupied and blockaded for Gaza. Actually Gaza may be worse off with the blockade since some level of trade with the outside can still take place in the occupied West Bank.

But let's not hem and haw about it. Israel is trying to break the spirit of the Gaza strip by severely limiting the flow of goods. It's not something worth defending even in a qualified way, IMO.

Whoa:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/mossad-chief-israel-is-gradually-becoming-a-burden-on-the-u-s-1.293540
Mossad Chief: Israel is gradually becoming a burden on the U.S.

Obama JAFP once again

JAFP?

One thing I don't understand: Why doesn't Israel just send the activists back to their home countries, deliver the aid, issue an apology and try to cool things off? Instead it seems to be aggravating things by holding them. Even if it finds legitimate evidence that a dozen of them turn out to be indirectly linked to some terrorist financier or something it's not going to do their side of the story any good.

Joneses After Franka Potente?

"soldiers found pistols in the hands of two of the activists who were killed, along with empty casings."

This is almost completely believable!

By the way I am beyond shocked that activists hellbent on breaking an official military blockade of Gaza might respond violently to being boarded and sabotaged by Israeli soldiers

Jewish After Forming Presidency?

Joins Assholes For Profit?

Just Another Feeble President

Jammin At Federal Plaza!

By the way I am beyond shocked that activists hellbent on breaking an official military blockade of Gaza might respond violently to being boarded and sabotaged by Israeli soldiers

― The Clegg Effect (Tracer Hand), Tuesday, June 1, 2010 1:19 PM (10 minutes ago) Bookmark

i don't think anyone else is shocked by this, are they?

the whole point of the flotilla was, well, pretty much to provoke some kind of incident, yes? what with the repeated iteration that israel would maintain the blockade. and the refusal to dock at ashdod.

whether it's a good life strategy to respond violently, idk, the other boats seem to have thought otherwise, but no-one is surprised by it

Yeah, I'd like to see that former ambassador and that Holocaust survivor beating on the IDF with clubs. Methinks they made the right decision.

history mayne - well, the IDF certainly seemed surprised and unprepared.

wut:

A soldier identified only as a sergeant told reporters at a military briefing that the activists on board "were armed with knives, scissors, pepper spray and guns." He said he was armed only with a paintball rifle. "It was a civilian paintball gun that any 12-year-old can play with," he said. "I saw my friends on the deck spitting blood."

Paintballing in international waters. Riiiiiiiiiight.

http://www.salon.com/news/2010/06/01/new_boat_gaza/index.html

Greta Berlin of the Free Gaza Movement, which organized the flotilla, said another cargo boat was off the coast of Italy en route to Gaza. A second boat carrying about three dozen passengers is expected to join it, Berlin said. She said the two boats would arrive in the region late this week or early next week.

"This initiative is not going to stop," she said from the group's base in Cyprus. "We think eventually Israel will get some kind of common sense. They're going to have to stop the blockade of Gaza, and one of the ways to do this is for us to continue to send the boats."

This is kinda awesome and I hope it works.