The ILC Favourite Characters Of All Time

Message Bookmarked
Bookmark Removed
Not all messages are displayed: show all messages (727 of them)
People often ask me why I don't like Neil Gaiman, and one of the reasons is that I don't think he learned the discipline that comes with holding down a regular 2000AD thrill.

Tom (Groke), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 10:34 (eighteen years ago) link

I agree, I think he's a better novelist than comic writer. Sandman had some great ideas and stories, but formally and structurally it's all over the shop.

chap who would dare to kill all the threads (chap), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 10:48 (eighteen years ago) link

Thread idea: Are ideas enough?

Answer: No, probably.

steviespitfire (steviespitfire), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 10:55 (eighteen years ago) link

There's a story that Gaiman tells (or is told about him, I forget) which involves him writing a thrill and then recieving the art pages only to find that some lunatic has scrawled several apges of total madness that have almost nothing to do with the story at all.

I seem to remember one of his thrills being drawn by Bellardinelli.

Vic Fluro (Vic Fluro), Wednesday, 12 October 2005 16:16 (eighteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...
41. A Homosexual (Jack Chick Comics)

(65 points)

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/wedge/uploaded_images/chick-795060.gif

ANTHONY EASTON WRITES!

Some things about homosexuals in Jack Chick Comics (esp. The Gay Blade)

1. In the Gay Blade, from the mid 70s, the cover combines three prominent signifiers of queer desire; two common and one not. (Lambda, Mauve, Sissy Prancing.) To know the Lambda is to spend enough time w. queer texts to get the cult.
2. The first three panels of Gay Blade actually make the married gay couple look as normal as possible; his strange over the top (camp?) phisiognomy is absent here.
3. The fourth panel is the most famous depiction of Chick and Homosexuality, and requires a closer reading.
a. Two Queer Radicals vs. Mother and Child.
b. It was a stated goal for glbtq folx when written to scare children, to antagonistically oppose the mother and child as an example of middle class sentiment
c. The men look like radical faeries, they have the genderfuck costume down pat, one large and bearded, with a brocade vest, a gay revolution t shirt, and be crowned with a v. fine bouffant—which seems to directly quote this foto: http://www.crazyfunnypictures.com/items/1619.jpg (Though it is a
radical queer picture, I find this mostly on funny picture now sites,
and not on places like gay.com or even the more pseudo-academic history sites.) taken about the same time… was it possible, living just north of SF, that he saw this, that he saw what was in the water?
i. The weird thing about the foto, is that it doesn't say faggot, he never actually engages in directed hate speech—it cannot be debated that the text is noxious, but he avoids saying things like faggot, queer, or any of the other more famous ones. His use of the word sodomite is explicitly biblical.
4. He footnotes the Lambda, talking about its presence as one of unity against oppression—which is true, and accurate, but does not note its classical and martial roots. Does he know it, is one of the reasons that jack chick hate fags, is that they are pagan, is that they oppose Christ and Christians, is their sin one of unbiblical decadence.
5. The sixth panel has the authority of the state is behind us, it faces the mob of radical queers, yelling and waving placards for gay revolution and gay power—there is only one cop for dozens of angry fags, they do not look pathetic, or angry, they look almost like they could win.
6. The text of this panel, talks about being defiant, it adds, almost half heartedly discussion of us being pathetic, miserable, etc—but the big thing for chick in the gay blade (and if that isn't a camp title I don't know what is) is that radical queer discourse provides an opposition to the order of both the state and god.
7. He then goes thru the standard, leftist gay is everywhere shit—literally the next three panels could be cribbed from something like Is It a Choice, or any of the don't feel bad about wanting to fuck men manuals that came after the militancy, the third panel in this sequence has two clones holding hands under an American flag, and the next panel has a butch dyke holding court at a school meeting, but she isn't the stone butch prison rapist that is so common in xian shit from this time…these two panels are actually fairly tolerant.
a. Chick is a skillful propagandist, he knows his Market, he has not gone over the top, he verges on journalism and he hasn't said anything that doesn't have correspondence in the queer communities…until about half way thru the comic.
8. Here he inserts the story of Sodom, and here he becomes the most vitriolic, the most revolted…in every anti-gay comic since the publication of the gay blade, chick inserts Sodom, and in Doom Town, his latest on the subject, he includes refutations of leftist hermeneutics about hospitality and social codes; Sodom is the key to this text.
9. The weird thing is that even biblically centered homophobic preachers don't really deal w. Sodom anymore, in many ways it is out of fashion (because of the wrath of YHWH is out of fashion, because we do not want to believe that someone is capable of such destruction (Pat Robertson is the exception here, with his recent comments on Hurricane Katrina.)
10. His Sodom sequence is drawn in the same style as bible illustrations from the 50s, before the good news bible:
a. Two archeologists sees images printed on the sides of caves indicating great and lasting evil, images so grotesque, that one immediately vomits (compare this to Doom Town: with its panel of a giant, yeti of a man, looking over a large eyed innocent child, saying "its that time again"—not saying that pedophiles are homosexuals, but saying allowing one sexual other lets the barn door open for everything else, an impt difference…)
b. It is from now on, biblical reportage: Abraham, Lot, The Two Angels, the great evil in the city, until we get about half way through the tour of Sodom
11. He then uses the line that Homosexuals surrounded the house of Lot, later calling them gay—this is the important part of the whole thing, he has moved between polemic and reportage, between theological point and moral one, between being fairly fair and being an asshole, between conservative but ethically consistent readings and cracked out misreading—the instability of the tract means that no grip can be held on it—there was same sex activity at that time and that place—b/w the Hittites mostly, and mostly related to foreign gods—there was a conflation b/w idolatry and adultery, w. Chick there still is.
12. The rest of the scene, 4 panels (including an oversize one) dealing with the evil of the homosexual men, two dealing with the angels who blinded the men, and one dealing with Lots Daughters a. Lot offered rape and murder as an option against anal penetration, in the most conservative reading of this text, and though Chick alludes to this, the phallocentric violence against women that grounds this story, that really does make it about men's violence against each other and women (Lot and His Daughters, YHWH and Lots Wife, etc)…there is a subtext here, mentioned previously, about order and the state, that the whole city, the government, the state, was corrupt, that corruption oozed into Lot, and Lot was in danger.
13. Then, nearing the end, we see the destruction of Sodom, ranking with Basil Woverton's illustrations of the apocalypse, this fire storm is so apocalyptic, and so modern—the desert, some people, and balls of flame, like Dresden, like Hiroshima, the left of the image looks like airplane fuselage and the right of the image looks like railway tracks.
a. This modernization of the fear of god, in the destruction of the modern world, comes in the this small picture, sandwiched with text, the top being the biblical verse, and the bottom being a footnote from an archeologist named DR MG Kyle, one of the ones who got sick I am assuming, the quote from Kyle (in 1924!) is one of salt plains, sulfur, and a "massively populated city" that is destroyed overnight.
b. The most powerful terror that permeates this entire comic, is that Chick is almost convinced that this slippage of gender and sex will destroy the world again, he is not looking forward to the apocalypse, not one of those rapture optimists—he surely has taken Christ into his heart, but even then, the fear of god is permeable.
14. The last 5 panels tell us that god hates fags, that they are coming to take over good Christians, has a few text panels added post AIDS with the same lying stats that have been bandied about forever, talks about recruiting, its so banal, so bog standard, it reminds us that homosexuality is one of many sins that can send us to hell, and that we have to pray and be forgiven. It rather ruins the enterprise.
15. This comic is the only one that still convinces me that I am going to hell, it is the only one that keeps terror in me, it is such a brilliantly executed piece of polemic, and there is nothing cute, nothing ironic, nothing amusing about it, it is a piece of religious fury, if best can be said to be a synonym for most effective, the homosexuals in Jack Chick Comics are one of the great villains—pathetic, dangerous, deluded, subversive, and able to be turned.

Tom (Groke), Thursday, 27 October 2005 20:42 (eighteen years ago) link

Thankyou Anthony for this epic and fascinating entry!

Tom (Groke), Thursday, 27 October 2005 20:43 (eighteen years ago) link

40. Cassidy (Preacher)

(68 points)

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/wedge/uploaded_images/cassidy-709024.jpg

Because we all know someone like that: the asshole with a heart of
gold who actually turns out to be a self-righteous asshole after all.
(Douglas Wolk)

I’ll be the first to admit that Garth Ennis’ embrace of old time John Wayne macho culture is altogether too whole-hearted, and that his attempts at contradicting this (Jesse Custer’s read Greer, so he has – not that he’s learned anything from it of course) are painful to say the least. But I also believe that the things Ennis fetishizes have aspects worthy of salvaging, alongside those that should truly be condemned. Drunken revelry, teary-eyed sentimentality and the ability to face any problem with a bemused grin or a comical cry of “feckin’ ‘ell” – none of this should be underestimated. Cassidy’s comedown and the revealing of his “dark side” are as heartbreaking as they are inevitable, and though the character does get sold out in the last few issues, along the way there’s been sufficient crazed hijinks to fill a thousand versions of “On The Road”. (Daniel Rf)

Greatest Moment: Coming to New Orleans, Cassidy finds what turns out to be another vampire. The stranger takes him home and begins a pompous old style vamp speech about children of the night and such. Slowly, it sinks in that this is the first person Cassidy’s ever met that shares his particular situation – “yeh’re a wanker, aren’t ye?” is his saddened reaction. (Daniel Rf)

Tom (Groke), Thursday, 27 October 2005 20:50 (eighteen years ago) link

lambda = the forbidden dance

Vic Fluro (Vic Fluro), Thursday, 27 October 2005 22:33 (eighteen years ago) link

that anthony entry is pretty fantastic.

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 28 October 2005 00:39 (eighteen years ago) link

It'll be over by Christmas, lads...

chap who would dare to spy on his best mate's ex (chap), Friday, 28 October 2005 01:44 (eighteen years ago) link

any chance at a link to the original work anthony is analyzing?

jdubz (ex machina), Friday, 28 October 2005 06:54 (eighteen years ago) link

There is a site where you can get ALL the Chick tracts in online form, only I'm not sure where.

Vic Fluro (Vic Fluro), Friday, 28 October 2005 07:08 (eighteen years ago) link

the gay blade, which isn't in regular production anymore but is what anthony references mainly above, and doom town, a sodom jeremiad along with it's recent update sin city. angels, my favorite chick tract, is more rock focused but does slide in some nasty homophobia. i recommend the imp dealing with chick tracts very very highly.

j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 28 October 2005 07:22 (eighteen years ago) link

Thanks james, I looked for it on the Chick site but must have missed it!

Tom (Groke), Friday, 28 October 2005 07:48 (eighteen years ago) link

yeah you used to see chick tracts like crazy everywhere (now the fake folded up five dollar bill that turns out to be a fire and brimstone testimonial is ALOT more common), a big variety too (even the crazy anti-catholic ones which are the heart of what jack chick's about), now it's just lame old 'this was your life'. this new one's fairly amusing, 'ALL PARTIES CANCELLED DUE TO FIRE' HAW HAW, although i'm not aware of any serious 'secular' movement to replace 'thanksgiving' with 'turkey day' (maybe chick's trying to get a piece of the same action bill o'reilly was working with his 'fuck this 'happy holidays' shit - everybody say 'merry christmas' from now on! EVERYBODY! ESPECIALLY YOU GODDAMN JEWS!'). as repellant as they are (and to be fair to, um, chick and mainstream evangelicism neither really has much to do with the other, in fact i'm pretty sure chick doesn't even go to church anymore cuz 'they've all sold out' or something; he's basically the richard meltzer of missionaries.)

j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 28 October 2005 08:05 (eighteen years ago) link

I like all the ones in which some glassy-eyed Christian nutter converts a Muslim with a stunningly logical argument along the lines of "The Koran is wrong and the Bible is right", to which the Muslim replies "Oh, ok, I didn't realise, I'd better become a Christian then." We should get this guy to the Middle East immediately, he'd sort everything out.

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0042/0042_01.asp

Here's a pretty hilarious one documenting in harrowing detail how playing Dungeons & Dragons will turn you into a SATANIST:

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp

chap who would dare to spy on his best mate's ex (chap), Friday, 28 October 2005 12:39 (eighteen years ago) link

Oh man, I think that Anti-Koran tract was drawn by Rags Morales.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Friday, 28 October 2005 13:49 (eighteen years ago) link

SAD HEATHEN FACE

David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 28 October 2005 13:55 (eighteen years ago) link

i'm pretty sure chick's written extensively about how islam is a catholic plot

j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 28 October 2005 14:05 (eighteen years ago) link

39. Tara Chace (Queen And Country)

http://pc59te.dte.uma.es/cdb/series/oni/bitmaps/tarachace.jpg

(68 points)

Rucka's better works always feature a female lead (which explains why Wolverine and Adventures of Superman were relative failures), and certainly, without Tara Chace, Q&C would just be an amazingly gripping espionage thriller. With her, Q&C gets bite -- permission to become sexy and saucy without being exploitative. (Leee)

Greatest Moment: from Gentleman's Game, where she nearly kills someone with a magazine. (Leeee)

Tom (Groke), Friday, 28 October 2005 15:01 (eighteen years ago) link

i should read that comic. did bourne supremacy rip off the magazine bit?

j blount (papa la bas), Friday, 28 October 2005 15:04 (eighteen years ago) link

It wouldn't surprise me if Rucka took the magazine bit from the BS novel. He pulls that kinda stunt quite often (Gotham Central has had direct lifts from Homicide and Silence of the Lambs), but he does it gracefully so it's no big deal.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Friday, 28 October 2005 15:19 (eighteen years ago) link

I think I remember the rolled-up magazine bit from an old Travis McGee novel. I read it sometime in the 70s and kept a magazine duct-taped into a tight roll in my car.

I do feel guilty for getting any perverse amusement out of it (Rock Hardy), Friday, 28 October 2005 17:17 (eighteen years ago) link

I guess that answers a question I had.

Leeeeeeeeee (Leee), Friday, 28 October 2005 21:54 (eighteen years ago) link

Was does the question "Does anyone love Tara Chance as much as me?"?

Andrew Farrell (afarrell), Friday, 28 October 2005 23:00 (eighteen years ago) link

I have finally read A GENTLEMAN'S GAME (spoilers etc.) (Beware teh spoilers elsewhere!)

Leeeeeeeeee (Leee), Friday, 28 October 2005 23:05 (eighteen years ago) link

Sandman had some great ideas and stories, but formally and structurally it's all over the shop.

Isn't this part of the conceit of the series, though? I think I wrote in another thread that I thought the themes of ineffable "meaning" in regards to dreaming and the exploration of storytelling and mythmaking across different cultures actually provided a useful tool for Gaiman to cover up any such weaknesses as a writer. Since the end of the series, I think it's hurt his stories to not be able to rely on that anymore, making them more straightforward structurally than they ought to be as myth/fairy stories, too straight-ahead protagonist-focused fiction (but given that he's talking about how myth impinges on the individual in the modern world, this is not entirely a fair cop). I think he comes out of the same zeitgeist as Moore and Morrison in regards to exploring this stuff, but he has that charming "middlebrow" aspect of his work I think I mentioned which makes him more accessible to genre readers, for better and worse-- I think his approach can provide food for thought, but it also runs the risk of being read as mechanical and shallow (or being read mechanically and shallowly).

Chris F. (servoret), Saturday, 29 October 2005 18:57 (eighteen years ago) link

BTW, this thread makes me wish I'd voted, but I don't like ranking favorites, especially of "all time"-- too much pressure.

Oh, and that Chick "Angels?" track is awesome, in a sad way! (Ozzy and KISS want "to destroy country, home, and education"? Rock and roll "removes love and ushers in lawlessness"? I like how Lew Siffer has an organizational flowchart worked out for the "Killer Rock" tho. This paranoid "king of the world" stuff is a shame, but it was almost like reading an episode of The Invisibles gone horribly wrong, especially with the L man in that white suit!)

Chris F. (servoret), Saturday, 29 October 2005 19:19 (eighteen years ago) link

Blount OTM re Imp (tho OOP obv.)

kit brash (kit brash), Monday, 31 October 2005 03:33 (eighteen years ago) link

This link might work better for the picture that Anth is referring to.

Casuistry (Chris P), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 06:40 (eighteen years ago) link

38. Robotman - Grant Morrison version (Doom Patrol)

(69 points)

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/wedge/uploaded_images/robotman-757807.jpg

In Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol, Robotman first seems like he'll be playing the part of miserable Marvel-type hero, the mind-body problem made flesh metal. Then you realise his second role - to act as the reader's anchor in the weirdness, first sceptical and then grudgingly accepting, making the best of whatever outrageous situation the team's adventures lands him in. Then you find that he's the male lead in one of comics' most touching love stories. It all adds up to a highly sympathetic character - and on top of all that he gets a lot of the best lines!

Greatest Moment: Vic Fluro nominated the appearance of spider-Robotman, and I can't argue with that.

Tom (Groke), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 22:28 (eighteen years ago) link

Props go to Richard Case's superb design tweaks (although how much of that was Morrison, as GM is an 'art-trained' writer, is open to debate). Robotman's mecha-arms and accentuated jaw drive home the point that this is not a man with the amazing powers of a robot but, more horrifically, a total body amputee, which is something that other iterations of the character often fail to bring across. ("Oh, that one - yeah, his power is that he's a robot. He's a bit miserable for some reason.")

Another Best Moment: Cliff had his own ashes put in a jar to brighten up the room. Also, "Brain Versus Brain".

Vic Fluro (Vic Fluro), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 23:13 (eighteen years ago) link

So wait - this ISN'T the guy with the strip that later became named for his sidekick, Monty?

Austin Still (Austin, Still), Tuesday, 1 November 2005 23:55 (eighteen years ago) link

ts: robotman vs the thing

s1ocki (slutsky), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 00:19 (eighteen years ago) link

Robotman the newspaper strip (by Jim Meddick) was very good for the first few years of it's run (back in the eighties), I still have some collections of it in Finnish. I don't know much about the new incarnation, but it doesn't look that good.

Tuomas (Tuomas), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 14:30 (eighteen years ago) link

Only #38?!? Maybe I should have voted then... Cliff is IMO the best GM protagonist ever-- Tom and Vic totally OTM about his appeal.
Acerbic wit + befuddled and sympathetic layman act (he's totally the audience identification character) + crazy cartoon deformable body = greatness in every scene he was in. Art-trainedness of GM aside (Case artwork has been a disappointment to me since DP, since he doesn't have GM's storytelling chops flying solo), it helped that Richard Case drew Cliff's face so expressively (helping to make the dehumanized "robot" character the most human and the most humane of the bunch).

Chris F. (servoret), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 18:17 (eighteen years ago) link

Robotman the strip died when the title character left. Version 2.0, called Monty, doesn't warrant mention in Your favorite inoffensively mediocre strips!, the reason for which is that it's not even mediocre.

Leeeeeeeeeee (Leee), Wednesday, 2 November 2005 18:50 (eighteen years ago) link

37. The Flash - Wally West (Flash, JLA, etc.)

(73 points)

http://www.freakytrigger.co.uk/pictures/wedge/uploaded_images/flash-723513.jpg

It's no secret that the Flash I like pretty much ended his run with #61 of his current comic, with occasional appearances in JLA since. I was new to the DCU, Wally wasn't, but he was new to what being an icon in the DCU meant. And since the DCU in 1986-90 was pretty much synonymous with the 'new comics', mainstream division, that put the character right in the middle of an approach to superheroing - sometimes realistic, sometimes ironic, sometimes gritty, sometimes whimsical - that counts as my personal Golden Age (OK looking at the Baron and Loebs runs NOW I can see some of the influences, 'specially Gerber and Englehart).

The first year of the FLASH series is honestly up there for me with Amazing Spider-Man as a fantastic kid-with-powers series that's grounded in its time and the issues of its time. Wally West grapples with money, sex, drugs, computers, and a fair number of goofy new villains, and pretty much every episode is a joy. Loebs' run is gentler and more playful but the character development continues. The Waid run takes that development on logically - Wally ends up a true hero, unfortunately for my money not a very interesting one.

(& the big setpiece Waid stories are all too much about hammering home that Wally is a REAL HERO NOW - not a sin Waid alone was guilty of in the mid 90s)

Greatest Moment: This is a very personal choice, I've been reading The Flash since I was ten years old, so I grew up with this character. I also liked him when he was with the New Teen Titans. Finest hours -

Loser Wally (Messner Loebs era) - The issue where he goes to Captain Cold's birthday, I think messner loeb's idea of turning the Rogues Gallery into a JLI-esque supporting cast was the best way to deal with their silliness.

Superhero Wally (Waid era) - Coming back from the speed force in "Terminal Velocity"

Alternative timeline Walter (not Wallace) West - Flipping through the pages of the Flash comic book and saying goodbye to Angela in the last issue of the "Flash from the future" arc that came after "Chain Lightning" (Iodine)

Tom (Groke), Monday, 7 November 2005 13:50 (eighteen years ago) link

Also his name is WALLY.

Speed Force tho = k-rub (we've had that discussion before).

Tom (Groke), Monday, 7 November 2005 13:53 (eighteen years ago) link

haha i loved all that terminal velocity stuff at the time! with the maxmercury and everything...

dave k, Monday, 7 November 2005 14:13 (eighteen years ago) link

The first year of the Flash is AMAZING.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 7 November 2005 14:41 (eighteen years ago) link

Not wanting to um give the next one away, but if somebody wants to write a quick blurb about a prominent female character named after a hotel* in a famous 300-issue self-published series, and if they could find a good picture of her too, and email those things to me...

...then I'd be quite grateful.

*& not an elf.

Tom (Groke), Monday, 7 November 2005 15:54 (eighteen years ago) link

Paris Hilton?

Wolfcastleee (Leee), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 02:04 (eighteen years ago) link

Mary Ott?

David R. (popshots75`), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 02:31 (eighteen years ago) link

Marmaduke Arms?

Huk-L (Huk-L), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 05:06 (eighteen years ago) link

Mrs Bates?

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 05:41 (eighteen years ago) link

Tom, check yr gmail. Three pictures to choose from as well (I favour the last one).

aldo_cowpat (aldo_cowpat), Tuesday, 8 November 2005 09:33 (eighteen years ago) link

I remember going to hear Grant Morrison speak at the ICA a couple years back and he was talking about some old run of the Flash which inspired his take on Doom Patrol - Flash getting into all sorts of vaguely metaphysical scrapes like getting turned into a pavement.

Does anyone know which run of Flash this was, who was the author etc? And if its available in one of those DC comps?

Jacob (Jacob), Thursday, 10 November 2005 09:54 (eighteen years ago) link

It's probably in the hardcover series of reprints which are pretty pricey.

Huk-L (Huk-L), Thursday, 10 November 2005 14:38 (eighteen years ago) link


You must be logged in to post. Please either login here, or if you are not registered, you may register here.